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The New Haxe Target: HashLink in depth, part 1 haxe.org
22 points by haxiomic  54 minutes ago   1 comment top
haxiomic 12 minutes ago 0 replies      
I understand the advantage of the HashLink target is to provide the choice between a fast-to-compile target (HLVM) and a fast-to-run but slow to compile target (C). So you'd want to use the HL target for quick development iterations and the C target for final release
Fidel Castro has died bbc.com
713 points by nerdy  11 hours ago   571 comments top 59
jknoepfler 10 hours ago 21 replies      
I would encourage the commenters in this thread who see Fidel's legacy as a black-and-white matter of an "evil dictator who did bad things and was wrong about economics" to step back, bear witness to the objective facts about Fidel Castro's life (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro), think sincerely about what could lead a highly intelligent and charismatic person to become or follow Fidel Castro (as many have), and take a moment to reflect on the complexities of global politics in the 20th century.

I am not a fan of Fidel Castro - quite the opposite - but humans are cut from a common cloth. When we see revolutions turn into dictatorships, and idealism deteriorate into a cynical fight to survive, it is foolish and dangerous to dismiss the dictators and revolutionaries as "evil" or "idiots" or some similarly otherizing term. It is dangerous because it means we are refusing to learn from history, and to apply the lessons of other lives to our own. Fidel Castro's mistakes are our mistakes to repeat, or to learn from.

If you hold yourself holier than Fidel Castro, and think that celebrating the death of someone you perceive as "evil" is prudent, take a deep long moment and try to learn something non-trivial from his life. "Fidel Castro" in the particular was not some kind of unique demon who plagued humanity. He was a charismatic revolutionary who occupied a very complex time. His life's trajectory was in many respects one of tragic failure. He may have, in reality, occupied a very dark corner of history, but that is for us to learn and judge, not to assume.

If you think you're better, then do better. Be better. Don't refuse to acknowledge the humanity of another person because you believe you can totalize their entire life under a cheap tagline.

ereyes01 8 hours ago 1 reply      
I know that in geopolitics, there are no good guys, that each nation acts in their own self-interest. I know that the crimes of one nation may be horrible, but pale in comparison to those of a bigger enemy. I know that politics has winners and losers, that the winners get to claim the moral high ground, while the losers mourn their injustice.

But tonight, I'll remember my family members that were killed in Las Cabaas by Che. I'll embrace my uncle who endured torture in Cuban prisons for buying black market bread. I'll remember my late aunt, who had to flee Cuba for her life under an assumed identity as a housekeeper. I'll remember my grandparents, who were always optimistic that they would soon return to their homes that were taken from them.

Tonight is for us. Tonight, I celebrate...

matt4077 10 hours ago 5 replies      
He has certainly led one of the most exciting lives of our times...

And despite his flaws (and/or crimes against humanity) I can't help but wonder how Cuba would have faired under different leadership. Looking at the next-island neighbors in Haiti, or any number of comparable African countries, it seems the Cubans got the better deal. Just one example: life expectancy is 15 years higher than Haiti, and actually even a bit higher than in the US.

Organizing the necessities for life on this island, with a superpower fixated on killing you (and ruining you economy) next door, and keeping it peaceful for 50 years must be some sort of high score.

I know there'll be many Americans dancing on his grave (once the Trump International Hotel Havanna has opened). They may not even be wrong in an absolute sense. But there have been dozens of leaders in South America, Africa and Asia in the last 50 years much worse than Castro who don't seem to trigger the reflexes of righteousness. Actual mass-murdering sadists like Manuel Noriega, throwing living people into the ocean, from airplanes paid for by the CIA.

Let's hope for a bright future for Cuba I met many people there who felt paralyzed by the stagnation, the constant scarcity. The beginning of the end of the embargo may turn out to be one of the most significant legacies of President Obama.

peterkelly 10 hours ago 4 replies      
Excerpt from the article on CNN (probably edited by the time you read this): http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/26/americas/fidel-castro-obit...

"One Castro or another has ruled Cuba over a period that spans seven decades and 11 U.S. presidents. Fidel Castro outlived six of those presidents,[[[NOTE: change to seven if George H.W. Bush dies before Castro]]] including Cold War warriors John F. Kennedy, Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan."

tomohawk 3 hours ago 0 replies      
The most chilling testament to this dictators intolerable cruelty is all of the various hand crafted boats that Cubans used over the years to flee his control.

The first time I saw one on the beach in the Florida Keys, I was astonished at the ingenuity of the craft and marveled that someone had so longed for freedom that they had spend years building it in secret.

Then, I was chilled.



Lordarminius 10 hours ago 10 replies      
After reading some of the comments here, my fath in the human race is not enhanced.

Castro was a genuine hero and a great man; indeed among the top 10 greatest individuals of the 20th century. He believed in freedom and dignity. He saw the US government as the enemy of progress everywhere in the world; he wanted people to be free and he devoted his life to that ideal.

How many people can you say that of?

> He was also an evil dictator...

Lol @ evil dictator. Fidel Castro never killed as many people as Nixon, Reagan, Bush or Blair. He did not go half way around the world as Thatcher did to claim an Island 4,000 km away from home (Falklands).

>...who silenced any and all opposition

What opposition? Imperialists and mafia members who wished to turn Cuba into an enclave for gambling? CIA operatives who tried to return Cuba to its occupied past?

> just look at Cuba today

Just look at Iraq, Libya,Syria today. And while you are at it; look also at Iran, China, Russia (which evaded western occupation). Indeed, look at Mexico which is friendly terms and has not been invaded yet by the US and tell me how much they have gained from that relationship.

I detest the hypocrisy I see in many (not all) western commentators. The spin and one sided arguments, the glossing over historical truths. Cuba is behind in development because of the American embargo.Simple. Not because the regime had no plan for economic development. In healthcare, this small nation with a health care budget 0.001% of the US beats the USA hands down in universal coverage and access to health. Who knows what would have happened if previous administrations had left them alone.

Finally, Castro sent troops to Africa to fight against colonial occupiers. He sent armies to harass the apartheid regime at the Angolan/ Namibian border. This counts as a plus in my book.

Rest on Fidel. You have fought the fight and lived like a man. I will pray for you. May heaven receive your soul.

chirau 10 hours ago 13 replies      
As an African, I'd say the world has lost one of the most influential leaders of the past century.

To pretend here, for me, as if he was cruel to our continent would be both ungrateful and untrue. The man offered free training and medical school for most of our African doctors, he harbored, trained and armed many a guerilla group in our pursuit of independence from colonization. Up until today, Cuba still sends significant numbers of doctors to remote African areas and provide expensive medical procedures for free.

The truth is, if as a continent we are to point at individual world leaders who did the most for African nations, Fidel Castro is very high up that list, if not at the top.

He had his fights and ills, but not with us.

With that, rest in peace Fidel Castro. Your legend lives on.

slau 9 hours ago 0 replies      
My aunt knew him pretty well. She runs a few hotels or resorts in Cuba (I'm quite estranged from that part of the family, so don't have many details), and had to cook for/host him on a regular basis.

I remember stories about how he, or Raul for that matter, would request to have sushi, even though she didn't have access to salmon, tuna nor eel. Even sushi rice was impossible to get by. The classic seaweed another hard to find item. These kind of crazy requests would usually come in a handful of hours, or less, before said meal was due to happen. Her job for many years was to pass off whatever she had access to as the real deal. Call it "tantrum trompe l'il", if you will.

I remember being surprised when she said it was probably the most fulfilling position to be in as a chef, because of how challenging it was.

dharma1 5 hours ago 0 replies      
I once spent 2 months in Cuba, about 12 years ago as a musician. We lived and rehearsed in Havana for a month with mostly a local band, and spent another month touring the country, big and small cities.

The level of poverty I saw as someone from the Nordics was new to me, and while things like hospital visits were free (even for me as a tourist), people really had so little money, to the point it drastically affected the kind of food they could buy. And indeed many types of food wasn't even available in the peso shops, or was rationed.

At the same time, there was very little crime, and it was generally quite safe, probably due to a large police force, and lack gangs or organised crime. The people were fantastic, so warm and hospitable even they had so little.

There was inequality too, some very nice houses in the rich parts of Havana reserved for members of the political/military elite while a lot of people live in extremely run down conditions, and bizarre things like taxi drivers who get paid in dollars and receive dollar tips easily making 20-40x more per month than doctors.

I understand that part of the reason the country has been struggling is the long US embargo, but I can't help feeling part of it is due to bad governance too. When I arrived I had a rose-tinted picture of Cuban communism like many tourists, but it shocked me when I asked some of the band memebers what would be needed to make things better, they said "The best thing would be if Fidel died".

Now that has happened, I wonder what the way forward will look like - if they will be able to retain the best parts of the socialist ideals and start growing the economy responsibly, or if it will turn into a land grab with the majority being left in poverty.

mrleinad 4 hours ago 0 replies      
His enemies claim he was a king without a crown, mistaking unity for unanimity.

And in that his enemies were right.

His enemies say if Napoleon had had a newspaper similar to the Granma, no french would have ever heard about Waterloo.

And in that his enemies were right.

His enemies say he used power by talking and not listening, because he was more comfortable with echoes than with voices.

And in that his enemies were right.

But his enemies won't say that he didn't just stood by while history moved forward that he faced the bullets when the USA invasion arrived, that he faced hurricanes with equal fury as the wind, that he survived 637 attemps on his life, that his energy was decisive to turn a colony into homeland and that it wasn't by any spell or miracle that that homeland was able to survive 10 US presidents.

And his enemies won't say Cuba is one of those countries that won't compete in the International World Cup as to whom is the most servient.

And they won't say this revolution, grown in punishment, is what could be and not what it wanted to be. Nor they say that the division between the wish and the reality grew taller and wider thanks to the imperial blockade, that drowned the development of a cuban democracy, forced militarization of society and granted bureaucracy, which for every solution has a problem, the alibies it needed to justify and perpetuate itself.

And they won't say that despite all of the problems, despite the agressions from outside and arbitrariness from inside, this small island, suffered but stubbornly happy, has created the least unjust latin american society.

And they won't say that this achievement was because of the sacrifice of their people, but also because of the stubborn will and outdated sense of honor of this gentleman who always fought for the losers, much like that renowned colleague from the fields of Castilla.

Eduardo Galeano.

(apologies in advance for any mistakes I may have made while translating this from spanish)

MarkMc 9 hours ago 1 reply      
Castro's poor judgement led directly to the Cuban Missile Crisis. Afterwards John F Kennedy estimated there was between a one-third and one-half chance that it would have escalated to nuclear war [1]. That seems like an underestimate considering that we now know some of the missiles were fully operational [2]

Yet today it's difficult for most people to appreciate the extreme threat and terror of nuclear weapons in the 1960's. Half of US voters think life was better then than now [3]. Really? To me, there's no level of job security that could possibly compensate for such a high chance of nuclear catastrophe.

[1] Reported in https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RKO6MS8/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...

[2] As described by Robert McNamara in 'The Fog of War'

[3] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/20/6-charts-tha...

betolink 11 hours ago 2 replies      
Fidel should have made it to the Guinness World Records, he survived more assassination attempts than we can count. I don't think there had been another man that had stood up to an empire for so long and had live to tell the story.
int_19h 6 hours ago 0 replies      
There's a lot of complaining about Castro here (and elsewhere) specifically because he was a communist. But if you think about it, the capitalist West has really dropped the ball on this. Most of these communist movements - in Vietnam, Cuba etc - were originally national liberation movements. And the reason why they appeared was because the respective countries were colonies, and their people were painfully (in many cases, literally so) aware of that fact.

Now, suppose you're a leader of such a movement. What's going to be your ideology, beyond just national self-determination?

Well, on one hand, you look at the guys that are currently busy denying you that, and you notice that they generally tend to be capitalist countries. If you listen to what their ideologues have to say, they notice they aren't actually saying much about your plight at all - it's all about some abstract stuff like free markets.

On the other hand, you have those communists, who constantly talk about imperialism and colonialism, and how it sucks for those on the receiving end. And you know it's true, from your own experience. And those guys haven't ever made you their colony, and aren't demanding that you become one. Basically, their talk on that subject is entirely in your favor. Well, why wouldn't you believe that they're right on all those other things, as well?

There are actually several examples of leaders that weren't initially particularly left-wing becoming more so solely because they were fighting against some Western country occupying them, other Western countries were just pretending nothing's happening (at best; at worst, they were actively helping the occupier, as in e.g. Indochina), while the Soviets were ready and willing to supply food, arms, and everything else you need to fight. Of course, it came with ideological strings attached, but beggars can't be choosers.

Castro, for example, was not a communist when he first started to participate in violent resistance. He was anti-American, and specifically anti-American involvement in the countries in the region, which then consisted of backing dictators like Batista and Trujillo. It was sometime after he started down that road that he became to radicalize along Marxist lines, especially after several bitter setbacks (that also made it clear that fighting against US requires a powerful ally to succeed).

encoderer 3 hours ago 0 replies      
My Father in Law had dinner with Fidel 10-15 years ago on a trade delegation. One of his colleagues had a little too much to drink and over cigars he turned to Castro and said 'I have to ask. A lot of people in my country think Cuba might have been involved in the assassination of JFK. What do you think about that?'

The room goes totally silent. All eyes on Castro and his bodyguards lining the walls. He says 'when the missiles were removed, the US vowed not to invade Cuba. I would've been a fool to do anything that would give the US the desire and moral high ground to break that promise. Nothing could come from killing Kennedy that would justify such a risk for Cuba'.

The remarkable part, I'm told, is that he laughed it off and the revelry continued.

miiiiiike 10 hours ago 1 reply      
Growing up in a northern US state Cuba and the US policies affecting it always seemed remote. Besides studying the facts in school I never gave the Cuban Revolution, Cuba, or Castor much thought until I played "Cuba Libre: Castro's Insurgency (1957-1958)" this summer.

Reading the historical/design notes in the player's guide and watching events unfold while playing as M26 brought history to life in a very visceral way. I spent the week after playing obsessively reading about modern Cuban history.


Cuba Libre is part of a game series on COunter-INsurgencies (COIN). "Liberty or Death: The American Insurrection" covers the American Revolution using the same system.


redthrowaway 10 hours ago 1 reply      
He had the dubious honour of being the least awful communist dictator. I hope Cuba can move forward now that it's free from his shadow.
Stratoscope 10 hours ago 0 replies      
I was fascinated by Fidel's choice of attire when he appeared before the Communist Party congress in April.

I think I've only seen him in the green military uniform. But at the congress he wore an Adidas jacket!

It would be interesting to know the story behind that.

Edit: Naturally, a half hour after posting this, I realized there was probably a way to find out...


kilroy123 11 hours ago 3 replies      
I went to Cuba earlier this year. It felt like a new era was upon the island. This just solidifies that.

Looking back, it will be crazy to think, I went to Cuba while Fidel Castro was still alive.

increment_i 11 hours ago 0 replies      
A central figure of the 20th century - it would've been remarkable to be a fly on the wall for some of this man's life experiences.
hal9000xp 10 hours ago 3 replies      
As a Russian, who was born in USSR, I regret that CIA has failed to assassinate him 50 years ago. May be Cuba would be liberated from communist/socialist disease.

Look at countries who declared a war against free markets - Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea. They are absolutely pathetic.

iansowinski 6 hours ago 0 replies      
For all interested in good photography - Castro had great photo session shoot by street photographer Elliott Erwitt - really worth seeing! (https://pro.magnumphotos.com/Catalogue/Elliott-Erwitt/1964/C...)

Also: there is nice set of photos here: http://lahabanaphoto.com/?page_id=132

sidcool 2 hours ago 0 replies      
We can debate all we want about Communism and democracy, but if history is any guide, democracy has definitely had more positive effect on the world.

Communism looks awesome on paper, but hardly works in practice.

dade_ 3 hours ago 0 replies      
This utter failure of foreign policy is such an embarrassment for the US. Even against a small island country that they partially occupy, the US couldn't cause a regime change. Everyone can spend all day debating if Fidel's army is better than Capone's gangsters, or living off state payments in squalor is better than being a peasant harvesting fruit for the wealthy Dole family with no healthcare, but the fact is that Fidel was only their #2 enemy, after America. I have no idea how the wounds between the people will ever heal, but the only way forward is if America's leaders choose to learn from their past mistakes and take a new, probably completely different approach. Obama started down a path, but the next 4-8 years are a complete mystery for now.
vic-traill 3 hours ago 0 replies      
I found Castro's Cuba a very interesting place, primarily because of its independence from American direct influence (and yes, I realise that Cuba has longed been defined by America's influence on it, even in opposing it).

American culture has had a huge effect on the world. To attend an island off the coast of Florida and find it more or less free of that cultural influence was fascinating. Fascinating in that they were even just able to do it.

I didn't see an island prison there. Which is not to whitewash anything. However, I was free to go anywhere I wanted and did. People I met were kind, welcoming and seemed, to my eyes and ears, content.

The view of Fidel as a tyrant is not the view one finds as they travel the world. Neither is he viewed as a saint. He is viewed as someone who achieved something incredible, with all that entails, good and bad.

Pxtl 1 hour ago 0 replies      
I see the Cuban revolution like Israel/Palestine. Anybody who has a black-and-white opinion on the subject is aggressively wrong.
zymhan 10 hours ago 0 replies      
This feels like one more end of an era. Though I wonder if the opening of relations between the US and Cuba might have been the end of that era.

In any case, Fidel lived long enough to see the American overreaction through most of it's shelf life.

thiagoharry 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Hasta siempre, Comandante Fidel Castro. It was a huge victory succeed in a revolution, survive hundreds of kill attempts coming from USA and then, die of natural causes at 90.
elcct 56 minutes ago 0 replies      
2016 has been very sad for left wing. Brexit, Trump now Castro...
moo 1 hour ago 0 replies      
A wonderfully productive life and human example in service for humanity.
sergiotapia 7 hours ago 0 replies      
I live in Miami and streets were full of pots and pans being banged around. Some fireworks too.

A lot of cubans and venezolanos are my neighbors, and there is whistling going on.

elcapitan 10 hours ago 1 reply      
I guess death by old age is definitely an "unnatural" death for a dictator.

When he was very old but still in power, I always wondered if he would just suddenly die one day and his country would descend into chaos. At least that has not happened, what, if you like or dislike him, you should probably still credit him. I hope Cuba will develop into a freer society over time.

xufi 10 hours ago 0 replies      
I wonder if Raul (since he seems a bit more relaxed) will hold general elections or stay in power till he too passes (which doesn't seem that far since he's only 4 years younger than his brother )
kingkawn 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Judging judging judging based on metrics that are amazingly forgiving of ourselves and our leaders. What a convenient lazy worldview.

Castro tried, all the way.

seesomesense 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Fidel Castro was an inspiration for much of the world.

He demonstrated that it is possible to survive without compromising with the hegemon.

partycoder 7 hours ago 1 reply      
Most Cubans do not support the Castro dictators. Only party members do, and they have a lot of privileges compared to the general population.

People live in very basic conditions under constant surveillance. Phone lines, Internet connections, etc. are monitored.

Most cars and electronics are still from the 50s, from the Batista era, and are repaired with homemade parts.

People can study for free, but there are no job opportunities, so you can see architects sweeping the streets and physicians driving cabs.

Disturbing a tourist is a grave offense and lead to years in jail. There are 2 currencies, one for tourists, another one for nationals, and nationals are not allowed to have tourist currency. Nationals are not allowed to enter hotels or tourist facilities.

People grow animals at home and give all scraps to them. Once they grow big enough they kill them for consumption. People rely on the black market for their basic needs. Some set up clandestine restaurants at home to make a living.

Cubans are not allowed to leave the country. They need to pay for the privilege of traveling, and all trips must include a return ticket. If multiple family members are traveling, at least one has to stay to ensure the family doesn't escape the regime. People bypass that by creating fake families through marriage.

As you can see, their life experience is BAD. The Castros are personally responsible for a lot of it. They should have stepped down for humanitarian reasons. People that supported the revolution initially would not have done so if they knew what was going to happen to them.

plandis 10 hours ago 2 replies      
I might not agree with his methods but he did seem like a leader that legitimately cared about Cubas citizens.
geff82 9 hours ago 0 replies      
So I open a bottle of champagne as another surpressor is gone. He did not care about the lives of his opponents, so I have nothing against his own departure. Would have been great if he had used his power to build up something.
TS_BROOKE 1 hour ago 0 replies      
TS_BROOKE 1 hour ago 0 replies      
throw2016 5 hours ago 0 replies      
The US has far more sins on its hand than Castro. Its not even a contest. There are over 59 self serving armed interventions in other countries since 1950 the last being Iraq, Syria, Libya and that's not counting stirring up 'revolution' that usually leads to US friendly despots in place.

This is destruction and devastation of tens of millions of lives. Libya was one of the most advanced countries in Africa, now its a basketcase. That's millions of lives in disarray setback for generations. Who takes responsibility for this? If these are not crimes against humanity what is?

We have got used to a fraudulent narrative supported by 'our' media where we can judge and think the worst of others and not examine our own devious actions. But if we want to judge and get self righteous about Castro we must first hold our own government to account to have an iota of credibility.

Since there is zero interest in prosecuting or even reining in the warmongers this persistent kneejerk rush to the moral highground is a sinister posturing by people who know exactly what this country has been doing and are out to defraud the world.

sfblah 8 hours ago 0 replies      
He outlived Kennedy by ~53 years. Kind of amazing.
NotSammyHagar 10 hours ago 2 replies      
Is there anyway way that castro could have done his revolution that wasn't opposed to the us? suppose you lived in a country that was ruled by a dictator that was supported by foreign powers, and you wanted to end that dictatorship so the people got freedom? that part seems okay. castro was a communist, that was unforgivable. but think about how the us treated chile and pinochet and other south american leaders. Like most revolutions, there were good and bad things. I don't know enough about castro and cuba to draw conclusions. after he took power, did he become a new dictator himself? what did he do more than be a communist leader?
faragon 6 hours ago 0 replies      
It's time for ending the Cuban orwellian nightmare.
wutangson1 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Hasta la victoria final !!
IslaDeEncanta 10 hours ago 1 reply      
The Cuban Revolution lives on. Rest in power, comrade Fidel.
puppetmaster3 3 hours ago 0 replies      
On hacker news? Celebrating left.
coldplay 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Adis Comandante Castro!
known 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Jnnz 2 hours ago 0 replies      
pastProlog 7 hours ago 1 reply      
One of the great men of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. That he will be vilified by the soon-to-be-led-by-Trump empire to his north, and Cuba's old idle class, which now lives in Florida, is a given. The empire's last outpost in Guantanamo Bay is where the empire takes other anti-imperialists it has kidnapped and holds them indefinitely without any sort of trial or Geneva convention procedure, and tortures and waterboards them. How different it is in the Cuba outside there, where Castro maintained his country's independence, and saw to the needs of all his country's people. While maintaining a large force of international health aid workers around the world, as well as aiding in such conflicts as the fight against the apartheid South African invasion of Angola.

It is amazing that a small island could defy the empire to his north for half a century. Such courage is probably what caused Khrushchev to send him nuclear missiles when talk of invasion of the rebelling perceived colony became widespread in the US. Courage, fortitude, the love of the people and international solidarity helped maintain the Cuban people's defiance of and independence from the empire which is soon to be Trump's.

forgetsusername 4 hours ago 3 replies      
Where do American administrators who are droning Arabs to death fit on that list of "evil peole"? What's the line you need to cross to make it on there?
mimimimi 4 hours ago 1 reply      
Lots of people followed Fidel probably for similar reasons they followed Trump, their willingness to be easily lied to. Fidel and Trump, same stuff.
Grue3 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Good riddance.
douche 4 hours ago 0 replies      
What a terrible mistake it was not to annex Cuba in 1898.
Castroeted 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Finally! WTF?
duncan_bayne 10 hours ago 0 replies      
... and nothing of value was lost.


The man was an evil murderous dictator, and the world - and his subjects - are better off without him.

redner 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Finally , that As was a tyrant and son of the devil, I'm happy he is gone forever
RcouF1uZ4gsC 10 hours ago 4 replies      
Has there been a single anti-American dictator who has actually improved the lives of their people? It seems the amount of anti-American rhetoric is directly correlated with how much they screw their country over.
illuminati1911 8 hours ago 1 reply      
Couldn't be more happy that this monstrous mass murderer and dictator is dead.

It's funny to see how leftist liberals are crying over this lunatic from New York hipster cafe's with their Macbooks and complaining about evil capitalism while all the Cubans who are living in the States and have actually experienced the life in Cuba are celebrating on the streets.

Zapcc a faster C++ compiler baptiste-wicht.com
15 points by ingve  1 hour ago   6 comments top 4
mhd 20 minutes ago 0 replies      
> In conclusion, we can see that zapcc is always faster than both gcc and clang.

For testing his template-heavy library. A very small data set, and while templates are one of the problems when it comes to C++ compilation speed, it's certainly not the only one.

Let's see the differences when compiling Firefox or the whole KDE suite.

jeremiep 44 minutes ago 2 replies      
I would love to see a comparison of the performance of compiled programs.

If zappcc creates slower executables but spitting them out faster, it could be used during development to speed up iterations. And if the executables are faster, I'm very curious as to how they achieved both faster compilation and faster runtimes.

the_duke 35 minutes ago 0 replies      
Mhm. I'm confused.

The value of a caching compiler should really become apparent in incremental builds, as in rebuilding after changing a single file. Yet the author talks about "not seeing any improvements".

Like he said, he might be doing something wrong.

The speedup observed anyway might come from the compilers having to rebuild/instantiate templated code everytime it's included.

dman 24 minutes ago 0 replies      
Applied for the beta program day before yesterday, hope I get in.
Cards Against Humanity is digging a hole in the earth holidayhole.com
285 points by kwikiel  2 hours ago   152 comments top 35
Hurtak 1 hour ago 2 replies      
Their FAQ is also pretty good.

Q: Why arent you giving all this money to charity?A: Why arent YOU giving all this money to charity? Its your money.

frisco 1 hour ago 1 reply      
This is one of the greatest things I have ever seen. Much better than the laser cutting of a Picasso. CAH is the OK Go of postmodern satire and have outdone themselves. Really incredible art.

I imagine many people not getting this is the same feeling I had growing up and being dragged to museums.

ethbro 0 minutes ago 0 replies      
"...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

If ever there was an appropriate event for the quote.

binaryorganic 1 hour ago 0 replies      
The folks at CaH have a history of pranks around Black Friday. They've invited people to send them money in exchange for absolutely nothing. They've sold boxes of actual bullshit. My personal favorite was when they raised their prices $5 and called it a 'once in a lifetime' opportunity and they still had record sales.
supergreg 56 minutes ago 1 reply      
If you see the glass half full, they are not just digging a hole, they are creating a hill next to it.
phillco 1 hour ago 1 reply      
Strongly reminds me of this classic Onion video: http://www.theonion.com/video/in-the-know-should-the-governm...
dorianm 1 hour ago 8 replies      
This is crazy awesome! I just wanted to do a cost breakdown:

0.6s/$ is $6,000/hour (thanks @danielvf).

The excavator is around $2000/day[1].

The truck is around $2200/day[2].

Plus at least two operators with $200/day each[3].

And then the cost of Stripe's fees, buying the land, getting a permit (?), etc.

[1]: http://www.rentalyard.com/listings/construction-equipment/fo...

[2]: http://www.rentalyard.com/listings/construction-equipment/fo...

[3]: http://gcsenergy.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2016-Hourly-R...

rroblak 36 minutes ago 2 replies      
CAH would never admit it, but I feel like at least part of this can be seen as political commentary.

From the top of their page: "The holidays are here, and everything in America is going really well" (emphasis mine).

It's hard for me not to read the last part of that as sarcasm, given many people's reaction to the recent US election.

Perhaps CAH is saying that the US is digging itself a hole by electing Trump and a Republican Senate.

Chos89 1 hour ago 7 replies      
I think the interesting thing about this is to think how weird our economy functions, because at the end of this, all we will have is a net gain for the economy and an empty hole.
JoeDaDude 7 minutes ago 0 replies      
I seem to recall a TV show about this subject. Yes, here it is:http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/going-deep-with-david-...
Raed667 1 hour ago 1 reply      
I have spent last night laughing at this.

I have spent this morning depressing about it.

dpeck 46 minutes ago 1 reply      
"From the widest gulley to the deepest trench, holes define who we are and where we are going." - Rainier Wolfcastle
reppic 50 minutes ago 2 replies      
A wonderful critique of capitalist ideology... and so on and so on. sniff --Slavoj Zizek
nathancahill 42 minutes ago 2 replies      
Funny, I'm watching two different fundraisers progress. One for election integrity and one for digging a hole.
TeMPOraL 19 minutes ago 0 replies      
I'm imagining the next year.

Black Friday 2017 - plot twist! For each $10 donated, CAH will put $7 in cash in the hole (using the remaining $3 to secure it against elements). At the end of the fundraiser, they'll fill the hole back in, creating a literal case of hidden underground treasure.

kelvin0 19 minutes ago 0 replies      
Well I'm glad someone is taking on that Herculean task. We can check that off our 'Humanity' bucket list ... It's funny and profoundly depressing at the same time.
wbhart 1 hour ago 0 replies      
An interesting question is what volume of earth could they move in the allotted time with this equipment. In the live feed it looks like they are making the hole wide, rather than deep though. It would be fun if they accidentally dug up a massive fossil find or something like that.
torgoguys 1 hour ago 0 replies      
I get the joke. I also find it stupid. But YMMV.
dictum 1 hour ago 0 replies      
I keep waiting for the day cynical businesses will cut out the middlemen and make a point using only their own resources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Foundation_Burn_a_Million_Qu...
kamyarg 1 hour ago 0 replies      
This reminded me of "The Hole" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAIbvlobWDM
juhq 19 minutes ago 0 replies      
Why did I just spend 15 minutes watching this?
arielweisberg 52 minutes ago 1 reply      
My guess is that this isn't just a hole it's a building whose purpose we will find out about at a later date.

I threw in 15 dollars for entertainment purposes.

lucd 1 hour ago 1 reply      
Evil people .. They must have an hidden plan .. Like burying a big time capsule with the worst items of our era... Not nice !(edit: item => items)
analog31 1 hour ago 0 replies      
I'd be shocked if it wasn't a video of a hole already being dug for some other purpose.
ytjohn 1 hour ago 1 reply      
I hope that next year they will fill it back in. Or maybe even this holiday season if they can get enough funds.
gkafkg8y8 39 minutes ago 0 replies      
Are we sure this isn't some ruse to fund a fallout shelter?
throwaway1974 1 hour ago 5 replies      
Uhm can someone explain to nonUS audience what exactly is this Cards Against Humanity?
nickpsecurity 48 minutes ago 0 replies      
Next time they should take donations for a deep learning system. They will promise to train the machine with data from CaH, Reddit, and 4chan. It will then output the next set of Cards Against Humanity. Their bullshit will be at the level of some tech companies posted here often. Whereas, fans might actually get something back for their money later. :)
ronnybrendel2 1 hour ago 2 replies      
But why?
cmrdporcupine 1 hour ago 1 reply      
Waste of good topsoil.
jbmorgado 1 hour ago 3 replies      
So, now we are helping destroy the environment for sarcasm? Seriously, what's wrong with these people?
k_sze 52 minutes ago 3 replies      
How is this even legal? Do they own the piece of land?
johnofthejohn 1 hour ago 3 replies      
I am disappointed that human beings can be so bored as to find money and time to do that useless nature massacre.
sabertoothed 1 hour ago 3 replies      
I cannot find the information which charities will receive the money. Should this not be mentioned?
peternilson 45 minutes ago 2 replies      
One estimate I heard on the required size of a donation able to save one life was around $4k. So yeah right now the collective have given enough money to save 20 lives into digging a massive hole in the ground.
Symbiosis of Docker and Perl codeandtalk.com
31 points by szabgab  2 hours ago   3 comments top 2
tyingq 2 hours ago 1 reply      
I like Perl, but I don't see why it would be any more "symbiotic" with Docker than any other language.

This is really just a talk on one approach to do microservices with Perl.

smoyer 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Microservices are rarely extraction or reporting ... seems like a horrible misuse of the language (CRUD).
Solving a Mystery Behind the Deadly Tsunami of Molasses of 1919 nytimes.com
26 points by pcl  2 hours ago   1 comment top
PaulAJ 33 minutes ago 0 replies      
I will never describe sluggish software as "running like molasses" again.
A Simple Explanation of How Shares Move Around the Securities Settlement System gendal.me
8 points by rpbertp13  2 hours ago   1 comment top
stygiansonic 0 minutes ago 0 replies      
In the US, the role of the central securities depository is done by the DTCC.[0] But the registered holder (nominee) of the DTCC is a separate legal entity known as Cede & Co. [1] (I recommend reading Matt Levine's article for further discourse)

So basically, the concept of ownership of a financial asset (which is itself, an abstraction) is further abstracted, for the purpose of making the system more efficient.

Fun fact: After Hurricane Sandy in 2012, the DTCC had to recover/restore many damaged paper certificates after their securities vault was flooded. I don't know whether these had any electronic entries but I assume they did. But the physical certificates still needed to be retained.[2]

If you're interested in this sort of market structure/market participant discussion, I'd recommend the textbook Trading and Exchanges: Market Microstructure for Practitioners, by Larry Harris.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depository_Trust_%26_Clearing_...

1. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2015-07-14/banks-for...

2. http://www.dtcc.com/annuals/2013/superstorm-sandy-recovery/i...

Acquiring administrative access to Azure's RedHat Update infrastructure ianduffy.ie
53 points by imduffy15  6 hours ago   7 comments top 3
matthiasb 2 hours ago 1 reply      
There was a thread yesterday where lots of people were complaining about HSMs (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13031155). I think this is an example where it would have helped to secure the private key in an HSM instead of the server itself.

Now the author states the keys have been rotated but now the next hacker know where to look.

shshhdhs 1 hour ago 1 reply      
It sounds like they fixed the RHEL Update infrastructure, but they didn't fix this:

"Additionally, if you duplicated a Red Hat Enterprise Linux virtual hard disk and created a new instance from it all billing association seemed to be lost but repository access was still available"

colinbartlett 2 hours ago 1 reply      
I'm curious to know if a bounty was paid for this and how much.
Lessons Learned from Shenzhen I/O probablydance.com
257 points by akkartik  13 hours ago   43 comments top 15
ketralnis 11 hours ago 3 replies      
> Only once you know for a fact that a better solution is possible can you actually think of that solution

This section reminded me of something a friend posited about space travel.

There are some inventions that just being exposed to the idea of them is enough to invent them. For instance, it seems that cultures that encounter others that have written language fairly quickly invent their own, even without knowledge of how the others work. The Cherokee syllabary was invented by an illiterate silversmith in the 1820s after he saw other people communicating via paper and knew that they represented a way to transmit information (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequoyah#Sequoyah_and_Cherokee...). The writing system that he invented was a syllabary, not an alphabet like the people he'd been observing or a logographic system like some other Native American languages. Having a writing system is a contagious idea all its own and knowing that they exist is sufficient to invent one.

It may be that efficient space travel is one of these inventions: just seeing someone else do it may be enough to invent it ourselves. I don't mean in the sense that we may observe details that give us hints as to how it works (though that's probably also true), I mean in the way that the article says "If nobody had gotten to the score of 180 before me, I couldnt have thought of any faster way of solving this puzzle. Without that piece of information, the brain just comes up with reasons why the score is already optimal". Simply observing working space travel may be enough for us to invent it ourselves. We may even invent a system entirely unlike the one we observed.

tofflos 11 hours ago 3 replies      
To the author of the article:

I'm jealous you found such a great friend to play the game with. ;-) I found the game interesting but without social interaction it wasn't able to keep me engaged... So I uninstalled it after a day or so.

Secondly... I reinstalled the game and opened up the second puzzle to see what my score was. Surely _my_ solution must have been better than the standard 240? Nope! Now I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how you did it. You bastard! ;-)

jpatte 2 hours ago 0 replies      
For those wondering (spoilers), the puzzle he's talking about in section 2 ("the second puzzle in the game") is a simple puzzle where you just have to double the values provided as input to produce an output. The naive solution at 240 points he mentions is extremely straightforward:

 mov p0 acc # place input value into internal register mul 2 # multiply register by 2 mov acc p1 # place register value into output slp 1 # sleep 1 cycle, wait for next input
The only way (I can think of) to optimize this is by cheating, i.e. by writing an algorithm specifically fitted for the kind of input we have to deal with. Looking at the input, we see that for example there are only 3 input values (0, 25 and 50) and there seems to be more zeros than other values. Based on this info we can try to predict what value is likely to show up as input and follow a dedicated path to handle it, in order to be as efficient as possible.

I must admit I was happy with the 240 solution and never thought there was a better way until I read this article. Now I feel obliged to at least go down to 156 :D

saboot 11 hours ago 0 replies      
A few of the lessons he talked about I've seen repeated on Casey Muratori's "Handmade Hero" series. Specifically point #3, he talked early on about writing simple code that fulfills one metric: it works. Afterwards you can see the implicit parts that should be made into functions, remove code duplication, and clean things up. However having that "full view" of a chunk of code makes the process easier.

Also point #4, he writes an interactive write-compile-test system using an executable hooking into a shared library which contains all of your code. That way you can compile and see the results quickly on a still running executable of your game. Very fast feedback without having to "respawn" to a part of your game to test.

mmastrac 11 hours ago 2 replies      
The tests are an important part of the lesson for certain. Even better is the lesson that throwing a test spec over the wall to your development team may result in them writing code that passes the test but isn't necessarily ideal for production.

I've played many hours of this game and have committed many grievous programming sins to improve my scores.

rockdoe 9 hours ago 1 reply      
The predecessor TIS100 is in the current Humble Bundle. Most of the stuff from the post applies, save maybe the story aspect.
doublerebel 10 hours ago 0 replies      
This is why I love learning and writing in multiple programming languages. The abstractions and advantages in each language push me to search out the best in whatever language I'm working in at the time, rather than being limited by the common paradigms in that language.
db48x 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Shenzhen I/O is indeed amazing. Most Zachtronics games are at least great.
pmontra 9 hours ago 0 replies      
I remember when a friend and I started optimizing a DES library in C at university in 1990. We had the same dynamics of the post, each other skimming off some cycles even when we thought that one of us got to an unbeatable implementation. We obviously had tests to prove correctness and measure speed. Bizarrely there weren't many tests around in the industry back then. I can't remember when I wrote my first unit test after then.
prashnts 7 hours ago 0 replies      
It really is an interesting game. I'd first started with this sort of genre playing Human Resource Machine, which simulates a single accumulator architecture, and very interesting set of puzzles. The puzzles really are just standard sorting, string reversal, prime factorization. The best part I find about it is the way Pointers and Memory allocation/access and stack access is done. I'd recommend this game very much as the puzzles aren't very hard and the progress is really satisfying.

Shenzhen I/O is a great game too! But I got stuck at one point and as another comment points out, I also gave up on it. Maybe it's time to log into Steam. :)

[*] https://tomorrowcorporation.com/humanresourcemachine

Mithaldu 8 hours ago 1 reply      
He makes one observation in which makes a small but important mistake: When he mentions tests he calls them first unit tests, then automated tests.

And yes, unit tests usually are automated. They are however just one type of automated test, and at the smallest scale too. Integration and system tests are just as important and can give much more bang for much less buck.

vasili111 8 hours ago 2 replies      
What you think about Shenzhen I/O vs TIS-100 ?
trishume 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Great article, I too loved this game. In fact the article prompted me to fire it up again and figure out the tricks to match his 148 on the 2nd problem and it was really fun.

Now for that second campaign...

RossBencina 8 hours ago 3 replies      
I don't really see the point of these TIS-100 style games that use made-up instruction sets. Wouldn't it be more interesting if the game used a real instruction set (e.g. AVR, x86)? Then we could be learning something useful while playing, and make use of the results.
xt00 9 hours ago 2 replies      
In all seriousness, I was expecting the article to be like "on nov 5th, I went to Shenzhen to attend the annual Shenzhen I/O hardware hacker conference.. and boy was I blown away.. lots of cool stuff people are working on..".. then I'm like, um, a game? what?
Show HN: Image Effects with CSS bennettfeely.com
123 points by bennettfeely  12 hours ago   15 comments top 5
MrQuincle 7 hours ago 2 replies      
Slightly related question: Does the carbon footprint increase with all this client side rendering?

I would think just rendering something charcoal on the computer of the designer should be enough, rather than repeating it on the machines of thousands of visitors?

leni536 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Nice. I consider this a hack though, I think that SVG filters are more suitable for this task.
visarga 7 hours ago 1 reply      
It's like PhotoShop. I used to play with pictures and obtain those effects 10-15 years ago. But I think we can do many more special effects with HTML5 Canvas.
iamahacker2 8 hours ago 0 replies      
TuringNYC 9 hours ago 2 replies      
This is impressive and the documentation is nice. But it would be nice to get the 30-second pitch -- is the rationale to push processing onto the client side? When I think of such effects, I would usually imagine them being on the server side, perhaps on a dedicated image processing server.
Mulle-Objc: A New Objective-C Compiler and Runtime mulle-objc.github.io
81 points by WoodenChair  10 hours ago   21 comments top 7
pavlov 7 hours ago 3 replies      
The biggest change so far seems to be a new memory management style called AAM, "Always Autorelease Mode". It's described on the compiler's Github page:


"The transformed methods will return objects that are autoreleased. Hence the name of the mode. The net effect is, that you have a mode that is ARC-like, yet understandable and much simpler."

This is like a halfway house between traditional Objective-C's "semi-manual" memory management, and the modern ARC (Automatic Reference Counting). Autorelease pools were a cornerstone of the traditional model: autoreleased objects will typically stick around until the end of the event loop cycle, which was a reasonable way to do garbage collection in mostly UI-centric Obj-C apps.

ARC replaced this model with static reference tracking in the compiler: instances are freed when the compiler knows that the last reference has gone out of scope. This is obviously more memory-efficient than the autorelease pool, and that was probably a big factor in Apple's decision to go with ARC (as the primary focus of Obj-C had shifted to iOS).

In summary, the Mulle compiler tries to combine the programmer ease-of-use of ARC with the simpler compiler/runtime implementation of traditional Obj-C memory management. The tradeoff is memory usage and incompatibility with some modern code that assumes an ARC compiler.

Here's a list of language features that the compiler will support:


Personally I agree with the author's positions in principle, but not entirely in practice. In particular, not supporting the property dot syntax will make it unnecessarily difficult to compile most Obj-C code written since about 2009. Same goes for blocks -- they're very integrated in Obj-C APIs by now, even though it does add substantial runtime complication.

pjmlp 7 hours ago 0 replies      
The best thing of this was the link about "Spirit of C", which shows that even ANSI agrees thrusting the programmer is no longer a good idea.

"12. Trust the programmer, as a goal, is outdated in respect to the security and safety programming communities. While it should not be totally disregarded as a facet of the spirit of C, the C11 version of the C Standard should take into account that programmers need the ability to check their work."

coldcode 2 hours ago 0 replies      
While I find this an interesting experiment, after nearly 18 years of Objective-C dating back to NeXT I have no desire to go back after switching to Swift. The future (at least some part of it) belongs to modern languages like Swift, Rust, Clojure, etc.
heisenbit 7 hours ago 1 reply      
Apple used to be the sponsor of Objective C for a long time. Was Apple's focus on Swift prompting this? From his documentation page:

> About mulle-objc

> When I wrote the Optimizing Objective-C Article Series, Objective-C had pretty much weathered its first hostile obsolesence attempt by Java. Now a decade later, it looks like the time has come, that I have to save Objective-C - at least for myself.

ori_b 8 hours ago 3 replies      
I wasn't aware that there was something wrong with the old compilers. Reading the page, I'm still not aware of the motivations behind this.

What does this compiler do better/different than clang or gcc?

EddieSpeaks 8 hours ago 0 replies      
cagataygurturk 5 hours ago 0 replies      
"Let's make Objective-C great again"
Some thoughts about the reports of supposed evidence of election irregularities caltech.edu
126 points by _pius  14 hours ago   55 comments top 8
grzm 8 hours ago 1 reply      
Once more unto the breach

Looks like we're about to have the same voting/election discussion we've had at least 6 times over the past month or so (most recently a day ago). If anyone's interested in reading what's already been discussed, here are links to the previous threads:

"Edward Snowden Demonstrates How Easy It Is to Hack a Voting Machine"https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13032199

"American Elections Will Be Hacked" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12921967

"Maryland will audit all votes cast in general election" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12885396

"Cylance Discloses Voting Machine Vulnerability" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12883356

"In Pennsylvania, Claims of a Rigged Election May Be Impossible to Disprove" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12790247

"Votes could be counted as fractions instead of as whole numbers" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12841178

pfooti 11 hours ago 5 replies      
This is similar to what Nate Silver put out earlier (as mentioned in the article). The difference in voting to each candidate by county and voting machine type is completely explained by the population distribution in those counties.

In Wisconsin, the counties that used paper ballots tended to be less white and better educated. That's why Clinton got more votes there, probably. It is unlikely that there is real widespread tampering.

That said, there is still good reason to audit all national elections. They're quite important, after all. The mad dash to say who won really quickly does a disservice to the process, IMO.

justAsking2017 3 hours ago 2 replies      
Has anyone noted that Trump sounding off about election rigging is a perfect ploy for one who knew the election would be rigged in their favor?

In response, the opposition made strong claims that elections cannot be rigged, in spite of the verified evidence of experts that they can be rigged.

Net result: Trump wins an 'upset' election, that was actually rigged in his favor, whilst the opposition cannot bring itself to claim that is was rigged, as that would be a contradiction of their earlier defense of the voting system's integrity.

There already exists a flawless system for ensuring 100% accurate voting results: a distributed consensus network utilizing a public block chain. Voters get assigned public/private key pairs upon registration. Their vote is a simple transaction on the blockchain which they can validate anytime they want.

yummyfajitas 4 hours ago 6 replies      
How quickly things change:

Donald Trump refused to say that hed respect the results of this election. By doing that, hes threatening our democracy. - Hillary Clinton

When you try to sow the seeds of doubt in peoples minds about the legitimacy of our election, that undermines our democracy, - Barack Obama


"Give me a break, @realDonaldTrump. Youre not losing because its rigged. Youre losing because we see through your creepy bullying."

"Anyone with children knows that whining about imaginary cheating is the last refuge of the sore loser, @realDonaldTrump." - Elizabeth Warren


i-think 10 hours ago 2 replies      
I don't think this article adds anything to the discussion. It repeats Halderman's earlier point.

the important point is that all elections should be audited, and not only if you have statistics suggesting that something might be fishy.

And repeats other conclusions which say that there are no signs of something fishy in the currently available data, at least based on initial statistical analyses.

biafra 8 hours ago 2 replies      
Why do they allow computers for voting at all? There will always be doubt that computers have been manipulated.
kahrkunne 6 hours ago 4 replies      
The whole reason people think it's fraud is because the media led people to think that Hillary couldn't possibly lose. When she lost, people started looking for an explanation.
transfire 8 hours ago 2 replies      
All we do is make excuses.
Intel preferentially offers two customers Skylake Xeon CPUs semiaccurate.com
54 points by walterbell  3 hours ago   19 comments top 8
msimpson 1 hour ago 2 replies      
The whole of the article rests on a single claim that,

"Several trusted sources say that later today, likely at Supercomputing 16, the company will announce they have pulled in Purley aka Skylake-EP Xeons, to this year and will sell them to two key customers."

Customers which the article goes on to name as Google and Facebook. Although, I cannot find any corroborating evidence to support this claim. Supercomuting 16 is now over, and I see no other articles detailing how "Intel is playing favorites with Skylake Xeons in a way that will shatter the industry status quo." SemiAccurate is literally the only site I can find professing this scenario.

I'm not saying it's necessarily untrue, but I'd like a lot more information on why it's just Google and Facebook.

- Was there a silent bidding war on early access?

- Did Intel simply choose two major customers based on previous sales?

- Were Google and Facebook specifically targeted to exploit FPGA for AI development?

The list goes on ...

slv77 1 hour ago 4 replies      
Intel has been under intense pricing pressure as the server market has consolidated into a few large cloud providers. Some of the largest providers have used their weight to really turn the screws on Intel. Providing exclusive access to top-end child has effectively turned Intel from being viewed as a commodity vendor to a partner.

In the past some of these players have threatened to turn to ARM processors to extract more pricing concessions from Intel. It will be interesting to see if that was a bluff or if Intel's technology advantage does really give them a TCO advantage even with their margins factored in.

It's also interesting that Google and Facebook are leaders in machine learning and I wonder if there isn't some additional collaboration in the works for custom silicon in the works. Google has their own custom silicon for machine learning and maybe could be encouraged to help Intel enter the market if they knew they would have exclusive access to the newest generation of chips.

Given the market caps of Google, Facebook, Apple et-al it makes me wonder why nobody has bought out Intel.

BuffaloBagel 15 minutes ago 0 replies      
What happens to Google/Facebook's retired hardware? Is it all just scrapped?
bhouston 1 hour ago 0 replies      
So basically if I want Skylake Xeons I need to move from AWS to Google Cloud? Interesting that Intel did this. I guess throwing AWS under the bus is worth it?
t0mas88 2 hours ago 3 replies      
Amazon uses custom product numbered Xeons. So I wouldn't be surprised if they get the same advantage + their own optimizations in short term. Intel wouldn't risk to annoy AWS, they are a far bigger customer than Google.
matheweis 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Well good. Once upon a time we had PowerPC and x86; and one particularly smart company was able to switch architecture without too much trouble to their customers.

Sure would be nice to have some competition to get things moving forward again.

deepjoy 57 minutes ago 1 reply      
"New generation server parts significantly reduce operating costs and without a huge price rise, they will also drop TCO more than a little"

Looking at some outside evaluations of their capex, it does not seem to represent a significant drop since CPU cost is only a tiny part of operating a datacenter.


CyberDildonics 17 minutes ago 0 replies      
Sounds like they should auction off the initial runs before there is enough supply to meet demand.
Top Books on Amazon Based on Number of HN Users Linking Them in Comments ramiro.org
198 points by q-_-p  11 hours ago   25 comments top 12
olalonde 6 hours ago 3 replies      
Surprised SICP isn't in there. Also surprised to see the Code book is ranked so high, I personally didn't get much out of it though it's probably a great introductory book to people who are new to the field.

On a related note, my favorite book this year was "Designing Data-Intensive Applications" by Martin Kleppmann. It's a great overview of modern database systems with a good balance between theory and practice.

viach 8 hours ago 3 replies      
dorianm 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Pretty surprised to not see Hackers and Painters: https://www.amazon.com/Hackers-Painters-Big-Ideas-Computer/d...
icebraining 8 hours ago 0 replies      
The second book ("The Four Steps to the Epiphany") has a score of 31 links, yet the HN search can only find 21 comments. Why the discrepancy?
rcdmd 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Is The Four Steps to the Epiphany: Successful Strategies for Products that Win as useful for B2B as this ranking suggests?
acangiano 2 hours ago 1 reply      
This made me a little sad. Before our house burned down due to arson, I used to have the majority of them.
imranq 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Strange that Feynman lectures on physics aren't on here - thought I saw them referenced a bit. At least surely you're joking is up!
coldcode 2 hours ago 0 replies      
"Three Felonies a Day" is an interesting choice.
bondia 6 hours ago 0 replies      
It's quite out of date as well: from Oct 2006 to Oct 2015
sputknick 8 hours ago 1 reply      
Surprised "mythical man month" didn't make the list. I feel like that book gets quoted around here frequently.
barking 8 hours ago 0 replies      
My score is 6 (4).I have 6 and read most of 4 of those.
eruditely 8 hours ago 1 reply      
Obviously this is biased towards older books, because simply books that have been around for a long time can be mentioned.

Let me get across a book with unusual conclusions that deserves to be known more.

"The Ghosts Of Evolution: Nonsensical Fruit, Missing Partners, and Other Ecological Anachronisms"


"A new vision is sweeping through ecological science: The dense web of dependencies that makes up an ecosystem has gained an added dimension-the dimension of time. Every field, forest, and park is full of living organisms adapted for relationships with creatures that are now extinct. In a vivid narrative, Connie Barlow shows how the idea of "missing partners" in nature evolved from isolated, curious examples into an idea that is transforming how ecologists understand the entire flora and fauna of the Americas. This fascinating book will enrich the experience of any amateur naturalist, as well as teach us that the ripples of biodiversity loss around us are just the leading edge of what may well become perilous cascades of extinction."

The Machine That Changed the World: Interview with Alan Kay (1990) wgbh.org
60 points by noblethrasher  15 hours ago   5 comments top 3
webwanderings 13 hours ago 0 replies      
> my feeling is, is that anything that is larger human scale invokes mechanisms concerned with religion so you have a priesthood with white coats, you know all the paraphernalia were there and some people thought it would take over the world and some people wanted it to take over the world, and some people were afraid it would take over the world, and none of those things happened.

Can things be said any more brilliantly, for all inclusive matters involving humans?

ttflee 10 hours ago 0 replies      
> Kay: Total Recall, you know Total Recall, somebody said, if you like road accidents, you'll love this picture. And the, that kind of stuff, you know, where you have, you know, five people you have to kill every 30 seconds or so is very easy to set up in virtual reality. I'm sure that a large percentage of the population will enjoy it.

Now there's grand theft auto serie and others.

kennethfriedman 11 hours ago 1 reply      
I've been trying for a while to try to download this video... can't seem to grab the raw video file. Anyone have any ideas?
Don't Lower Corporate Taxes. Abolish Them bloomberg.com
98 points by aburan28  3 hours ago   188 comments top 36
nightcracker 2 hours ago 9 replies      
This rhetoric is ridiculous. If I were to stash trillions of income overseas to evade taxes, I'd go to jail, not have the law changed.

> It may look unfair to tax consumers to compensate for a major business tax holiday -- but then such a move would give businesses a strong incentive to keep prices lower to avoid a drop in demand.

A drop in demand? People are going to eat less food because taxes are now lower? Need less healthcare? Will move to a cheaper home? Just not use internet? Drive the car less to work and sit more at home?

Supply/demand is crooked. It doesn't work for the majority of the goods the majority of the people purchase. Demand is fairly fixed and based on population, and supply is provided by the only bidder in your area.

> Besides, liberated from corporate taxes, they'd have more freedom to increase wages.

Does anyone still believe this 'trickle-down' hogwash?

I really wonder when America will have its wake up call during its third part-time job to pay the rent that maybe change is needed, and that your government has no intention of making it.

avar 2 hours ago 6 replies      
NPR has a recent podcast called "The No-Brainer Economic Platform" which includes changes to the tax codes that have a unanimous approval of economists across the political spectrum (e.g. abolishing corporate tax), but which they show via focus groups would be impossible to present to the public:


Their other plans include things like abolishing housing and medical subsidies, which they claim just leads to price inflation in the longer term, but which are obvious political suicides to propose.

A text summary of the podcast is available at: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/07/19/157047211/six-p...

They did a follow-up episode where they hired an actor to play a politician advocating these policies, and tried to convince focus groups of voters:


The point of these episodes was not to try to present some absolute truth about economic policies, but rather to demonstrate that while there are certain things experts universally or near-universally agree on, convincing voters of these policies can be a hard sell.

E.g. they argue that eliminating mortgage tax deduction would have the counter-intuitive long-term benefit of making houses more affordable. But when you try to explain that to people you've lost most of them once they realize that in the shorter term their existing mortgage would go up.

darpa_escapee 2 hours ago 2 replies      
> It may look unfair to tax consumers to compensate for a major business tax holiday -- but then such a move would give businesses a strong incentive to keep prices lower to avoid a drop in demand. Besides, liberated from corporate taxes, they'd have more freedom to increase wages.

We tried this with Reagan and everyone is still waiting for their increased wages.

beat 2 hours ago 5 replies      
It's only half the picture.

A major source - maybe the major source - of massive unfairness in the US tax code is the capital gains tax. Tax on capital gains is about half the tax on wage income. This is justified by the "double taxation" of corporate income tax. So abolish the corporate income tax, with its myriad loopholes and ineffectiveness, but treat capital gains as ordinary income.

Wealthy individuals who make most of their income on capital gains rather than wages would then pay the same as the rest of us. I remember during the 2012 presidential election, when Mitt Romney finally released his tax returns, he paid less than 50% of my family's tax rate, on 100 times our income. How does that make any sense? If capital gains were taxed as ordinary income, his taxes would have been roughly the same as ours.

crazygringo 2 hours ago 5 replies      
I think the main argument for abolishing corporate taxes is that they're inherently regressive, if we assume that the taxes get passed on to either consumers (who may be poor) in the form of higher prices, or investors (like grandma holding retirement shares) in the form of lower stock prices.

There's certainly an argument to made that corporate taxes should be abolished, and personal taxes increased instead (income and capital gains), where we can ensure that the equivalent amount of taxation is applied progressively, through higher tax rates on the rich.

Because the key thing to remember is, corporations don't exist on their own -- they have human owners. So if you tax the rich owners directly, instead of taxing the corporation, you can get the same money but with finer-grained control -- you can progressively tax the rich owners more, and grandma's pension less.

(Of course, if you don't believe in progressive taxation, then corporate tax, sales tax, property tax, etc. are all just fine.)

yabatopia 2 hours ago 3 replies      
Why stop at corporate taxes? Why not personal income taxes?

Maybe it's time to transform myself into a corporation. No more taxes, limited liabilities, easy bankruptcy (student loans), can't go to jail even if I make a real mess (financial crisis of 2007, Wells Fargo, BP), welcome at exotic tax havens, tax breaks to move to another region... The ultimate lifehack: forget cloning yourself, just corporize!

pg314 2 hours ago 4 replies      
The top five tech companies Apple, Microsoft, Alphabet, Cisco and Oracle had a total of $504bn of cash by the end of 2015. They have more money than they know what to do with. Lowering their tax rates will create exactly zero jobs and have no effect on wages.
figjamjam 1 hour ago 0 replies      
How about abolishing income tax in general and just have a consumption and land taxes.

I live and run my company in a tax haven. I had to move here in order to be competitive internationally with other low tax jurisdictions. My only other option was to go out of business.

In addition to not having to pay any income taxes I also don't have to report anything to the government or worry about the government, bank, isp, phone company etc spying on me. No need to worry about going to jail over a misinterpretation of the tax code. I don't have to worry about immigration issues. Healthcare is completely private and very affordable.

Politics is a lot more boring when the parties are not fighting over who's in control over massive amounts of spending. Helps keep corruption down.

Leaving SF and moving to a tax haven was the best decision I've ever made in my life.

I'm culturally American, but I'm not a citizen. If the US were to adopt similar policies I'd love to move back. I'd bring money and jobs with me. But unless Texas succeeds I'm unlikely to see a western (anglosphere) country doing this in my lifetime.

vinceguidry 2 hours ago 2 replies      
Fuck. That.

Why do you think the planet's largest companies are still the planet's largest companies? Because they've gotten in bed with government. That's why there's no income tax, because of regulatory capture. Of course Bloomberg wants to just give up the fight. Sure, corporate tax right now doesn't contribute much, but there's no reason why it can't. Yes, it's hard to enforce laws on entities with ginormous amounts of resources, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try.

The audacity of these people...

matt4077 2 hours ago 0 replies      
There are literally two arguments in this waste of ink:

1. Enforcement is undermined by international competition and tax optimization

...which is like calling for the abolishment of the criminal code in the face of a rise in crime.

There have actually been major advances in corporate taxation in the last decade or so. Switzerland is basically gone, so are Panama, Luxembourg, possibly Ireland and the Caymans as well. If the EU and US managed to cooperate, they could easily make the rules watertight.

2. liberated from corporate taxes, they'd have more freedom to increase wages

...which is complete BS because (a) it's never happened, and (b) only earnings (after costs such as wages) are taxed. If anything, the money could be better spend to lower associated costs of employment, such as health insurance. Or, you know, basically anything else: education, infrastructure, a decent life even for the less fortunate.

His best argument is actually the counterargument he cites: you don't want corporations (...are people...) to sit on endless amounts of cash. It creates a power imbalance equal to that of billonaire dynasties.

The "author" reaches new hights of asininity with his proposal to increase VAT instead, fully knowing that it is the most regressive possible taxation. You'd need VAT increases to 30%, which means a 30% tax on the lower third to half of society that lives paycheck-to-paycheck, but results in a 5% tax rate for the guy earning so much he can invest 3/4th of his income no VAT on financial transactions etc.

eganist 2 hours ago 2 replies      
> Besides, liberated from corporate taxes, they'd have more freedom to increase wages.

We've already played the trickle-down economics game. I don't recall it being all that successful.

pfraze 2 hours ago 3 replies      
TL;DR: corporate taxes can not be collected effectively due to off-shoring, and so should be replaced with taxes on private income or on consumption.

It doesn't make a very compelling case. Consumption taxes slow spending, and private wealth can also evade taxation.

EDIT: corrected, thanks rectang

raverbashing 2 hours ago 0 replies      
"liberated from corporate taxes, they'd have more freedom to increase wages"

Really? Wages are a business expense, taxes are paid on profit. Hence wages have nothing to do with corporate tax.

BillFranklin 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Their argument for abolishing the tax seems to be (a) it's not a big contibutor to GDP, (b) businesses might raise employee wages, and (c) we can control corps with other regulations.

Reasons a and b seem to conflict. If corps already aren't paying tax, they have the cash ready to raise wages.

Reason c ignores that there are similar loopholes to safety and environmental regulations too.

Taxing corps is an answer to the problem that companies cost the government money (i.e. trucking companies use roads) while benefitting the state (employing people who consume and pay income tax). Maybe it's a good idea for the government to directly recoup the benefit of a company using state resources.

a3n 2 hours ago 1 reply      
I'd be on board with this if one thing resulted: corporations would be prohibited from making political donations, or any sort of political activity. Not being a tax paying entity, they should have no "voice" in politics as a corporation.
lazyjones 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Corporate taxes will be abolished soon by smart governments and replaced by (higher) personal income/wealth taxes. It's the only realistic solution to global tax competition because corporate entities are much more mobile and flexible than individuals (including shareholders). It's either higher taxes on dividends and lower/none on corporate profits, or diminishing tax income overall.
1_2__3 2 hours ago 0 replies      
It's extremely challenging not to read this article as satire.
jSully24 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Is the real question not about taxes but what to do about all this cash?

Taxes are necessary. But in the case of corporations I think the problem is not about what the right corporate tax rate should be but instead what does a company do when they effectively have so much cash they can not find good options to invest that money in.

If one of these companies suddenly reports a significant drop in cash due to aggressive investments in something that is failing (say, perhaps building an autonomous car) their stock will be punished, a very negative incentive.

The real question: is a company investing this cash the right thing to do? IMO it is, we want that money at work, building something. I dont believe taxes can solve this. Instead can we need to find a way for companies to be able to invest this money in new ideas but not be so punitive via the markets when they try things that fail.

coldcode 2 hours ago 0 replies      
The problem will come when you collide a corporate tax rate of 0% with tax cuts for the wealthy. The end result will be higher taxes for the rest of the population and no more services of any kind. Or even higher national debt. I suppose you could always raise duties on foreign imports to insane levels which would no doubt be popular politically. No idea what type of country that would result in.
rectang 2 hours ago 1 reply      
What a repulsively regressive proposal.

The article would be more interesting it explored replacing corporate taxes with a wealth tax rather than an income tax.

coldplay 2 hours ago 0 replies      
The real enemy of the small-medium businesseshttp://failedevolution.blogspot.gr/2016/03/the-real-enemy-of...
soVeryTired 1 hour ago 1 reply      
I'd like to propose a rule for politicos to follow when discussing fiscal policy. I don't expect them to follow it, but I suppose everyone can dream.

The rule is this: all proposals for changes to government spending must be revenue-neutral. That is, if you propose a tax cut somewhere, you must propose a tax hike somewhere else to explain how the cut would be paid for. Or if you don't want to propose another tax hike, you must specify what service will get cut as a consequence. Conversely, if you wish to propose a service, you must specify how you will raise the funds to pay for it.

Anything else is wishful thinking, and is storing up trouble for the future.

barnacs 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Better yet, abolish for-profit corporations. Cap individual salaries at 1.5x median or something. Create a global or national direct crowdfunding platform. Have the population propose, vote on and fund causes with the excess money.
kapauldo 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Two problems: 1) someone has to pay for the common roads, OSHA, FCC, etc., the things that enforce common consumer-business fairness, and 2) virtually no company pays this rate. Exxon, Facebook and verizon have paid 0% or close for years, so this is mostly a fake problem to disguise the real problem of tax loopholes.
spraak 2 hours ago 0 replies      
This post, also on the front page right now argues to increase corporate tax


adhambadr 1 hour ago 0 replies      
"Besides, liberated from corporate taxes, they'd have more freedom to increase wages"

yeah right .. we all know thats exactly what's going to happen!

aplomb 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Increased wages (for the average worker) is the last thing companies will do with more cash - it's the gift that keeps taking if incentives are considered.

We Americans manufactured and believe in a host of fables to explain the prosperity of the last 70 years...

mathattack 1 hour ago 0 replies      
I actually do get the core premise. Tax the owners via dividends and capital gains. An added tax in the middle is inefficient. Of course let's see this done in a revenue neutral way!
strict9 2 hours ago 0 replies      
a few points made in original article, paraphrased:

1. lowering taxes will benefit consumers because corporations will lower prices (and definitely not maximize shareholder value)

2. taxes have loopholes and sweetheart deals, so we should level the playing field by rewarding their talents (or deep pockets) by eliminating everything

3. Only 10% of Federal tax revenue, despite the whales' best efforts at tax avoidance

I think #1 is the most offensive. The idea of companies putting excess profit from tax removal into hands of consumers is the most laughable argument for removing corporate taxes I've ever heard.

cm2187 2 hours ago 1 reply      
Flat tax, no tax deductibility of debt. Let's make the system simpler, easier to enforce and comply with and eliminate all loopholes.
wav-part 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Or have vote share = tax paid - service/goods provided. The democracy is weird corporation structure, the more share you have the less power you wield.
speeder 1 hour ago 0 replies      
The only problem I see with abolition of corporate taxes, is that it allow certain people to store their wealth "by proxy".

advantages of zero corporate taxes:

* lots of advantages for small business, too much to list.

* big business don't need to shuttle cash offshore.

* big business have more cash to worth with, if that is their intention...

* less government money wasted on trying to collect those taxes.

And probably several other advantages... but at least US have a major problem:

stock ownership is counted as part of someone assets, but the value of those are only taxes if the person sells it or get dividends, with zero corporate taxes, it would be an incentive for CEOs, founders, etc... to just accumulate stock, never pay dividends, don't pay high salaries to themselves, but still throw their weigth around using their total assets as a hammer, for example by having their corporation buy stuff they want, or by taking loans to use the cash with the stock as collateral.

This would effectively allow the richest to accumulate untold wealth while paying no taxes at all.

The only way I can see zero corporate taxes working, is if you patch up some other areas first.

Now, something I think is quite brilliant in US that already exists, is that US tends to tax only profits, for example lots of people upset with Trump not paying taxes when he had losses (at least when he said he had losses...)

In Brazil you pay tax over your income, doesn't matter if you had profits with it, this leads to extreme price inflation, specially when production chains get longer, as people will charge for their stuff more and more to get over the taxes.

For example, once I talked with a guy that made YoYos (the round toys on a string). The toys are simple, and cheap to make, but on the store where I met the guy, they wanted about 5 USD for a simple YoYo, and a better YoYo suitable for amateur competition was about 30 USD.

The factory owner, told me that the 5 USD YoYo manufacturing cost was about 80 cents, but all the taxes summed when the factory sold to the distributor were in total about 40% of the INCOME, not the PROFIT, thus the factory sold to the distributor the YoYo for 3 USD, with 1.2 USD being paid in taxes, 80 cents covering the manufacturing costs, and 40 cents being their raw profits (ie: before paying employees, transport, dividends, marketing, whatnot).

The storeowner, also aimed to have about 50 cents in profit, but his taxes were about 30% of the income (not profit). If it was in US, he could charge 3.5 USD, get 50 cents in profit, and tell the buyer he had to pay an extra 1 USD in taxes, but instead he had to charge 5 USD, he would pay 3 USD to the factory, earn 50 cents in profit, and pay 1.5 USD in taxes.

heisenbit 1 hour ago 0 replies      
It is scary to what extent corporate taxes can be avoided. Something is there is seriously broken and radical ideas are worth contemplating when the there is such a discrepancy between plan and outcome.

Should profit be accruing unchecked in corporations? Certainly there should be some pay back to society as society bears some external costs. Not only that but there may be better places capital could be deployed. These can be different at different times - management doing reinvestment, shareholders moving capital elsewhere, employees spending and taxman spending. A robust scheme would employ a balanced approach. At any time one may be preferable and some will argue for extremes. But things are changing - always - until this time it will be different - only to return shortly later violently to mean.

Discussion of corporate profits requires to also be looking at income tax and the treatment of dividends and capital gains is always being simplistic. But the essay is not trying to propose a solution. It is simply pointing out that there is a systemic escalating credibility problem:

> It could be argued that the existence of a tax that countries cannot properly enforce is one of the factors undermining trust in governments and feeding populist movements.

Bloomberg is not known for its social attitude and one may argue that they are advancing here a very liberalist agenda by talking up a fake problem. I give some leeway this time due the next paragraph:

> There are other ways governments can keep corporations in check -- for example, through environmental, safety and labor regulations, which U.S. Republicans and Brexiters dislike but which ultimately benefit consumers in a way the corporate tax doesn't. There are also other ways governments can get the revenue -- for example, by paying more attention to private income from corporate dividends and pass-through entities, or the European way -- by placing an additional burden on consumption through a value-added tax. In the U.K., VAT contributes 10.7 percent of GDP to the budget. To compensate for the absence of a corporate tax, it would need to go up from 20 percent to 25 percent -- the level that currently exists in Sweden and Croatia, for example.

Finding ways to tax that can not be escaped is critical. Also important is to find ways to tax that don't burden labor too much. However this approach needs to take into account that shifting (or acknowledging the fiat-accompli) of collecting tax from less sophisticated and mobile citizens and workers is putting pressure on well paid full time employment. Tariff free zones may not be so compatible with that approach.

Last but not least - hoarding profits (most extreme in case of Apple) as it going on at the moment is a recent phenomena. There used to be a tax on that called inflation. Any balancing would need to look at where and with volume new money is entering the system and going nowhere.

known 2 hours ago 1 reply      
No taxes; Just go and print currency;
adamnemecek 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Bloomberg being Bloomberg.
cmrdporcupine 2 hours ago 2 replies      
The USA has some of the highest corporate taxes in the developed world while simultaneously being the state that is arguably the most controlled and dominated by capitalist interests. It seems like a paradox until you put it under a different lens...

As a Marxist I'm actually for the abolition of corporate taxes. I think they're an ineffective and counter-producitve means of raising revenue and simply make the state more dependent on corporate profits and power.

But in return for the lowering of corporate taxes, I'm for socialization (which is not necessarily nationalization) of a whole bunch of key assets, legal and state support for worker-owned business and cooperatives, and broadly the transfer of power of much of what is now in corporate hands into the hands of the population as a whole.

Show HN: Alter convert text/code to an image alter.cf
28 points by kbr  8 hours ago   25 comments top 4
yorwba 7 hours ago 4 replies      
I looked at the code.

 var lineLengthOrder = lines.slice(0).sort(function(a, b) { return b.length - a.length; }); ctx.canvas.width = ctx.measureText(lineLengthOrder[0]).width + 25;
Ok, written by a beginner. A few tips:

1. Sorting all the lines just to get the longest is pretty wasteful. Try an explicit loop that iterates over the array once, keeping track of the longest line seen so far.

2. Using measureText to get the visible length of a line is a good idea, but doesn't mesh with using the .length property to find the longest line. Some characters may be wider than others, so a line containing fewer characters (shorter .length) could actually be longer (using measureText) than the one with the most characters. Try copy-pasting some Chinese from https://zh.wikipedia.org and compare with a line containing the same number of Latin characters.

To also say something positive: At least it looks nice!

nkkollaw 7 hours ago 1 reply      
I like it.

It does what it says (although I'm not sure how useful what it does is).

Still, good job.

anewhnaccount 8 hours ago 1 reply      
Matrix Multiplication matrixmultiplication.xyz
791 points by kasbah  1 day ago   118 comments top 47
daniel-levin 1 day ago 8 replies      
This is a cool example of what Bret Victor calls an "Explorable Explanation" [0]. That said, I feel that it's more important to understand how and why matrix multiplication corresponds to a composition of linear transformations than learning the actual mechanics of doing the computation. You can get good at matrix multiplication without knowing what is going on. I view that as a less valuable activity than learning about linear transformations (vector-space structure preserving mappings) between finite dimensional vector spaces.

[0] http://worrydream.com/ExplorableExplanations/

j1vms 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Not sure if anyone here has mentioned this yet, but it's useful to think of matrix multiplication as the most natural extension of one-dimensional algebra into multiple dimensions. First, remember that people first wrestled with and found solutions to "1-D" equations like "ax^2 + bx + c = 0". When others came along asking about how to extend these results into multiple dimensions so that previous results might still be useful, the most natural answer was found to be how we now define matrix multiplication. To see further evidence of this, take your favorite linear algebraic equation using matrices and then look at the edge case where you have only 1x1 matrices in your equation. Usually you'll end up with something that looks analogous to a result in basic algebra in real number (or complex) variables, not matrices.

If all this still seems counter-intuitive, then realize this is essentially why math is so important to our logic. It helps us to reason about things that are not obvious, yet logically must fall through from the basic tautologies we "chose" (like 0 != 1, addition on integer numbers, etc.). Or, more aptly in this case, it helps retain an analogous symbolic representation (the overall logic of the equation at the high level) despite a change in the underlying nuts and bolts of computing solutions to it (matrix multiplication vs. our regular "1D" multiplication).

tskaiser 23 hours ago 1 reply      
This is cool, but I have a few criticisms:

- Flipping something over like that looks cool, but confuses the brain. At least it confused mine.

- Inconsistently calculating 1 or 2 elements at a time is confusing. Having 2 results calculated at a time simply put requires the recipient to untangle what is going on. This only gets worse when the recipient tries to do it themselves for examples with more columns in the right matrix.

Disclaimer: I am biased as I already know how to do matrix operations, and I visualize it differently. When multiplying by hand I translate the right matrix up, like in the animation, but do not flip it over. Then I calculate each element one at a time by taking the sum of products of the row and column that intersects over that element. Like so: http://i.imgur.com/D572zOI.png

As you can see I'm not much of a graphics artist.

Edit: actually, I think this would be really good if you "filter down" one column at a time, instead of moving the whole matrix down, so that it only calculates one element at a time, one column at a time. Means the animation will contain more steps, but I think that is actually to its benefit. Does this make sense?

ryanmonroe 22 hours ago 0 replies      
For me personally, a simple animated version of this image[0] looping through rows of A and columns of B seems easier to understand.

[0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Matrix_m...

zubspace 1 day ago 4 replies      
I like the idea, but my brain is wired differently.

Usually, when I do matrix multiplications, the rows on the left side transition to the columns on the right side. In the example, the 1 goes to 2, 2 to 6, 1 to 1.

The animation completely confused me, because it looks like being reversed, but the result is the same.

Maybe, make this a visualization option?

user1713952 1 day ago 3 replies      
The idea is good but I am afraid it misses the point entirely. Multiplying both columns of the right hand side matrix to the left hand side matrix is really not helping the target audience understand what is going on. 2 operations are going on as the same time. I believe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkY2DOUCWMU is a much better way to illustrate the matrix multiplication (and provide a clear explanation of the why) .
ivan_ah 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Nice illustration of the "row picture" of matrix multiplication. The "column picture" is equally important. This intro lecture by Prof. Strang is a really good lesson on that: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-06-linear-algebra...

Also, this short tutorial on linear algebra covers the row + column pictures on the first page: https://minireference.com/static/tutorials/linear_algebra_in... (disclaimer: I'm the author)

inglor 1 day ago 1 reply      
Question for staltz - are you happy with the cycle code at https://github.com/staltz/matrixmultiplication.xyz/ ? It feels like a lot of work for this sort of task which I feel could have been achieved by using an existing (mutable) matrix lib and drawing ad-hoc. It feels like an awful lot of code written - especially with all the `.something === "SOME_STRING_CONSTANT"` (couldn't those be typed directly in TS btw?).

Still, you're a smart guy - I'm trying to see why it's worth it. Do you really feel model-view-intent shines here?

(Nice visualization by the way)

cousin_it 1 day ago 2 replies      
I think a cool way to visualize matrix multiplication would be to put three matrices MxN, NxK, MxK on the sides of a three-dimensional box MxNxK. Each cell of the matrix MxK would cast a "shadow" onto some row in the MxN matrix and some column in the NxK matrix, whose dot product would give the value of that cell.
shultays 1 day ago 1 reply      
Change to color of rows to red & blue (while multiplying) so it is easier to which result is which product.
hdivider 1 day ago 1 reply      

Some concepts in math are so much easier to grasp with an interactive visual. I once made an entire game around matrix multiplication -- such that players didn't even know they learned how to do this.

And sometimes, visualizations can help cause discoveries. A lot of progress in theoretical physics came about because physicists 'guessed' what nature's equations should look like...and then got shocked when they discovered they were right.

Take James Clerk Maxwell, for instance:

"He had achieved his greatest success by relying on just one empirical fact known to every school boy. Yet now he tried to do without any empirical facts, by pure thinking. He believed in the power of reason to guess the laws according to which God has built the world."


mfirmin 1 day ago 0 replies      
This reminds me of Nicky Case's Explorable Explanation of a 2D transformation matrix: http://ncase.me/matrix/
hacker_9 1 day ago 1 reply      
As a gamedev who uses matrices all the time, I don't find this animation useful at all for practical work. Instead I think of matrix multiplication as creating a list of ordered operations (scale x translate x rotate etc) which is just encoded efficiently in a table, to then be sent to other parts of the program for use. You can even remove items from the list by multiplying by their inverse.
jayajay 21 hours ago 1 reply      
It's easier to think of matrix multiplication by computing the matrix elements, which means reducing the problem to NM vector dot products.

To get the element of the result matrix at position (n,m), compute the inner product < r_n | c_m >, where r_n is the nth row vector of the left matrix and c_m is the mth column vector of the right matrix. Once you try it, you'll see that it's also much easier to visualize than this strange, unintuitive approach.

With great power comes great responsibility. That domain name belongs to that person. I hope they do society a favor and put more content regarding MM that that, because they chose one of the least intuitive ways of thinking about it. Put more ways up, or ditch the domain.

If the goal is to get people to understand what matrices are, the best way is to teach them about operators, transformations, vector spaces and linear algebra in general, because this is really the only way to fully understand what's going on without relying on some heuristic.

If the goal is to get people to remember how to do matrix multiplication, at least put up more ways of doing it.

wodenokoto 1 day ago 0 replies      
As others have mentioned, many introductions to linear algebra / matrix multiplication only gives the student a formula, but not why the formula looks like it does.

Why is matrix multiplication not pointwise, was something I had a hard time understanding.

Better explained has a good article on this, that really made it click for me


FeepingCreature 1 day ago 1 reply      
This is sounding increasingly like the Monad situation, where everybody has their own incompatible approach for explaining it, and none of them make any sense.

I feel like I understand Matrices _less_ now than when I started reading around here.

IshKebab 1 day ago 1 reply      
This is nearly how I think of it, but for me I do one column of the second matrix at a time. I think it is clearer that way. This way makes it look like there is some kind of staircase thing going on which there isn't really.
Jaruzel 1 day ago 2 replies      
I have never understood Matrix Multiplication - which has always prevented me from doing cool 3D stuff.

Now I do! THANK YOU! :)

tvural 21 hours ago 2 replies      
Matrices are linear maps, and matrix multiplication composes the linear maps. Now statements like the determinant of the product is the product of the determinants, the trace is preserved under similarity transforms (since similarity transforms just rewrite the linear map in a different basis), etc. are intuitive.

I've always felt that these explicit calculations don't really get to the point. You can memorize them and still not really understand what's going on.

greggman 13 hours ago 0 replies      
This is very cool. For me I needed to know why it works not what it does.

I worked it out here for 2d transformations http://webglfundamentals.org/webgl/lessons/webgl-2d-matrices... and then expanded it to 3d, perspective, and cameras.

amelius 1 day ago 0 replies      
How I would explain it:

- First, show how to multiply a row vector by a column vector.

- Then, show how to "simultaneously" multiply several row vectors by a single column vector by placing the row vectors in a matrix.

- Now, similarly, do the same with the column vector. And voila, matrix by matrix multiplication.

rsp1984 23 hours ago 0 replies      
Very nice, but the mental model I prefer is to think of a Matrix-Vector multiplication as the weighted sum of Matrix columns, and a Matrix-Matrix multiplication as just several Matrix-Vector multiplications (results being the columns of a new matrix).
kafkaesq 14 hours ago 0 replies      
I my head I see the matrices remaining in place, while the vectors from the left slowly float to the right, produce dot products, which in turn float into their destination cells in the new output matrix just to the right of the equals sign.

But that's just me.

gregn610 1 day ago 0 replies      
Nice. I needed something like that when I was getting started with ML courses.
jordigh 21 hours ago 0 replies      
I find this image a lot easier to work with. The animation above just seems a tad confusing:


ww2 1 day ago 0 replies      
I think this is overdone and does not help the intuition. two things: (1). the first step of transposing the second matrix 90 degree is unnecessary and confusing. A row vector and a column vector are different. This step confuses the two. (2). All the final elements are independent and should be calculated in parallel, the stepped anime is not necessary and does not reveal this basic fact.
adamnemecek 1 day ago 0 replies      
I have found the Stanford EE263 class to be possibly the best class on linear algebra. This might be due to the fact that it's technically a class about linear dynamic systems not linear algebra per se


scalablenotions 20 hours ago 0 replies      
Thank you! This is marvelous and really made me understand this process at a much simpler level. Please consider making more for other mathematical concepts :)
thanatropism 1 day ago 0 replies      
See the very first video in Strang's MIT Linear Algebra course on YouTube.

There's two ways of seeing matrix multiplication (from a matrix POV, rather than as linear transformations).

daw___ 1 day ago 0 replies      
Awesome. What about making it more clear that the "End" button will animate remaining steps? Before clicking it I thought it would have jumped to the last step.
jakehoon 23 hours ago 0 replies      
This would have been so awesome to have in college. I stumbled upon RegExr the other day (http://regexr.com) which I absolutely love. It kind of shares this spirit of showing people how to do things that appear complex at first glance, but have a sort of addicting nuance to them. Thanks for sharing.
cocktailpeanuts 21 hours ago 0 replies      
I have no idea what's going on there.

But it's a cool piece of art, I'm guessing that was the intention.

matteuan 18 hours ago 0 replies      
Nice, now let's do it with the Strassen's algorithm
lima 1 day ago 0 replies      
Appropriate use of the .xyz TLD :-)
NumberCruncher 1 day ago 0 replies      
I wish we had visualizations like this back in the 90's when I studied statistics.
kasbah 1 day ago 0 replies      
I wonder if this visualization could be turned into a fun game.
mrcactu5 17 hours ago 0 replies      
this is more than just visualization. i can touch the computation. each step is tangible
esalman 1 day ago 0 replies      
Another one for matrix inversion would be nice.
hodder 1 day ago 0 replies      
Cool visualization.
JabavuAdams 18 hours ago 1 reply      
Neat visualization. I feel it's important and eye-opening to note that there's not just one way to multiply matrices, there're five (according to Strang):

5 ways to multiply A B = C

1) Each element of C is a dot-product of corresponding rows of A with columns of B

2) Each column of C is a combination of the columns A. Each column of B has the coefficients.

3) Each row of C is a combination of the rows of B. Each row of A has the coefficients.

4) Accumulate outer-product. Accumulate sums of of outer-products of each col of A with each row of B.

5) Block multiplication

They all produce the same answer, but different ones provide different insight for particular situations.

See Video Lecture #3 of Strang's Linear Algebra course for more info: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-06-linear-algebra...

jasonx1e 16 hours ago 0 replies      
Now make one that can find inverses ( )
rockdoe 1 day ago 2 replies      
Misrenders on Firefox for Android.
joshaidan 1 day ago 3 replies      
Interesting, I wonder why Facebook has this website blocked, preventing me from posting it on my wall.
Vinkekatten 1 day ago 0 replies      
Meh, the site is blocked at my workplace. Websense is really crummy.
coin 1 day ago 0 replies      
Uggg, why is zoom disable on mobile devices?
known 1 day ago 0 replies      
HeavyStorm 18 hours ago 0 replies      
I read the title and thought, oh God, not another one, the second was bad enough and I like to pretend that the third never happened...
Germany planning to massively limit privacy rights dw.com
225 points by walterbell  21 hours ago   68 comments top 11
schoen 7 hours ago 1 reply      
The right of Germans to access data about themselves (which this proposal would apparently weaken) is what Malte Spitz used to get his cell phone location data from Deutsche Telekom in 2011, leading to this pretty striking visualization:


In that way, it's been useful for making concerns about what others know (and can deduce) about us more concrete and specific.

camillomiller 7 hours ago 2 replies      
Good luck with that.I'm still hopeful. If there's a country where people would be genuinely putting up barricades over privacy issues, that's Germany.My vision might be a bit biased by the fact that I live in Berlin, where people are much more politically active then elsewhere in Germany, but I still think that it's a theme that strikes the average German's interest
UhUhUhUh 42 minutes ago 0 replies      
Which will result in people digging deeper underground and in more tools being developed to allow that.I think this will also results in safe-heavens developing here and there around the world, just as the Dutch republic was for printing/publishing in the XVII/XVIIIth century. And immensely profited, on all levels, from it.
Propen 3 hours ago 0 replies      
What the hell is going on around the world? I can't believe this sh*t. Why are we putting up with this?!

The state of surveillance we are headed towards is getting more and more ridiculous each day.

themattbook 13 hours ago 5 replies      
I have the political and business acumen of a wooden plank, so forgive the elementary question, but what would the German government or businesses have to benefit from the massive limitations? The way I read it, it seems Germany wants to restrict one's right to privacy... and that's it. Why?
edblarney 5 hours ago 0 replies      
This is really odd because Germans are really skittish about this - more so than any other Western nation.

The Stasi is in living memory for millions of them.

edem 6 hours ago 1 reply      
First UK now Germany? What is happening? Why do people let this slide?
droopyEyelids 14 hours ago 2 replies      
Does anyone know how the legal mechanics would work?

Can they pass the draft law that overturns the earlier laws?

I assume that the state legislature will have a say. Is there any indication they're amenable to it?

How does the American style thing where they reintroduce unpopular bills with subtle modifications continually until the public loses focus work in Deustchland?

sandworm101 12 hours ago 0 replies      
>>> ...to checking that the technical prerequisites are in place to ensure that doctors' and lawyers' files are secure...

Forget the privacy issues. That a government is inspecting the safeguards of lawyers is something to applaud. I;m on a bunch of ABA committees that constantly discuss the ridiculous state of security at most law firms. Most US states require that lawyers,in short, "try". So long as some modicum of effort is put into securing client secrets the average law firm won't hear anything from their bar associations.

(Yes, I said most! Most firms are actually very small, without the budget even for a full-time IT person.)

Create 9 hours ago 1 reply      
From the adoption of printing by Europeans in the 15th century we began to be concerned primarily with access to printed material.

The right to read, and the right to publish were the central subject of our struggle for freedom of thought for most of the last half millennium.

The basic concern was for the right to read in private and to think and speak and act on the basis of a free and uncensored will.

The primary antagonist for freedom of thought in the beginning of our struggle was the Universal Catholic Church.

An institution directed at the control of thought in the European world, based around weekly surveillance of the conduct and thoughts of every human being. Based around the censorship of all reading material and in the end based upon the ability to predict and to punish unorthodox thought.

The tools available for thought control in early modern Europe were poor. Even by 20ths century standards but they worked. And for hundreds of years, the struggle primarily centered around that increasingly important first mass manufactured article in Western culture: "the book" Whether you could print them, posses them, trafficking them read them, teach from them without the permission or control of an entity empowered to punish thought.

By the end of the 17th century censorship of written material in Europe had begun to break down first in the Netherlands then in the UK then afterwards in waves throughout the European world.

And the book became an article of subversive commerce and began eating away at the control of thought.

By the end of the 19th century, that struggle for the freedom of reading had begun to attack the substance of Christianity itself and European world trembled on the brink of the first great revolution of the mind it spoke of "libert galit fraternit" but actually it meant freedom to think differently.

The "Ancien Rgime" begun to struggle against thinking and we moved into the next phase of the struggle for freedom of thought which presumed the possibility of unorthodox thinking and revolutionary acting.

And for 200 years we struggled with the consequences of those changes.

That was then and this is now. [...]

Everything we want everything we hope everything wed like everything we wish we new about is in the search box and they own it.

We are reported everywhere all the time

In the 20th century you had to build Lubianca you had to torture people you had to threaten people you had to press people to inform on their friends I dont need to talk about that in Berlin


ne01 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Very interesting! I'm wondering if it's possible to use these effects to modify images on the client side before uploading it to the server?
Mars Ice Deposit Holds as Much Water as Lake Superior nasa.gov
345 points by azazqadir  1 day ago   70 comments top 10
557833 23 hours ago 4 replies      
Lake Superior has enough water to flood all of North and South America to almost one foot.
verytrivial 23 hours ago 0 replies      
Water behaves very strangely on Mars. http://www2.cnrs.fr/en/2753.htm -- Note the videos.
Practicality 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Interesting that this is in the "Utopia Planitia." That is starting to look like a probable location to set up a colony.
codecamper 22 hours ago 2 replies      
If we could just pack up some of this extra CO2 & get it over there, maybe we'd have a new planet! I wonder how many PPM you'd need?
baron816 14 hours ago 0 replies      
Mars is still less habitable than the Earth would be post nuclear war.
Ftuuky 1 day ago 0 replies      
Good spot to land the Spacex's ITV.
mozumder 23 hours ago 1 reply      
The entire core of Mars is made out of ice. The reactor melts it, and it makes air.
fatdog 21 hours ago 0 replies      
King of Mars. Called it.
techterrier 1 day ago 4 replies      
Or mud, as this stuff otherwise known.
ginko 1 day ago 3 replies      
Which is about a millionth of the total water on Earth.
A Week with the New Macbook Pro with Touch Pad medium.com
38 points by monort  3 hours ago   22 comments top 8
ttub 0 minutes ago 0 replies      
I got a maxxed out 13 inch (touch bar) a couple of days ago, and I hate the new keyboard (I never got used to the shallow keyboard on the 12", after having one for almost a year).

The Touch Bar is also pretty much a useless gimmick.

Besides that it's a neat machine, though I think Apple is getting close to what is worth paying the Apple tax for (inconsistent product lineup: no USB-C on the iPhone 7, no USB-C on the external trackpads/keyboards, etc). My employer paid for my machine, I do not think I would have spent my own money on this.

rayiner 1 hour ago 2 replies      
Re: battery life. VSCode (and the underlying Electron shell) is likely to blame. I can get 10 hours on my 2015 MBP if I'm just tooling around in Safari and Emacs. Having anything Electron based (or Chrome) drops that to about 6. It's somehow more power hungry than MS Office, which is saying a lot.
hartator 46 minutes ago 0 replies      
> I chose the maxed out standard model for $2,799 at the local Apple store: 15" i7/2.7/16gb/512gb

I might be nit picking, but maxed out normally means you've picked the very best config (2.9/2T/Radeon 460), not that you picked one of the standard configuration.

PS: Also, they are selling better configuration than the author's at local Apple stores, no need to order necessarily online.

crazygringo 2 hours ago 1 reply      
Very true about the speakers -- I never cared either, until now. They're so good. Also true about the trackpad -- not a big problem, but it does sometimes move my cursor when typing, and there's just no need for it to be this huge.

As for the keyboard, I've been using mine (sans Touch Bar) at home for four weeks now, and it's great. It took a while to adjust, but now when I use my Air at work, the keyboard just feels so... suboptimal. It really is a pleasure to use. (In contrast to the Macbook keyboard, which was terrible.)

nicky0 2 hours ago 1 reply      
The author is confused over terminology. The control strip above the keyboard is called the Touch Bar. The main pointer input device is the Trackpad. Neither is called Touch Pad.
chmaynard 3 hours ago 1 reply      
It's great to read some informed comments about this wonderful new laptop by someone who has actually used it. I disagree with his opinion about the size of the touchpad, but that's a matter of personal preference.
curiouscat321 1 hour ago 1 reply      
Anybody had any issues with the keyboard? I've heard rumors of some ergonomic issues and it worries me.
wyclif 2 hours ago 4 replies      
I don't know much about the new MBP specs, but I was a little surprised to read this:

This taxed the system hard and it was very hot, with fans running

I was under the impression that these didn't have fans.

SQL transaction isolation levels explained elliot.land
51 points by astdb  7 hours ago   2 comments top 2
kelvich 4 hours ago 0 replies      
There are some controversy about definitions of isolation levels in SQL standard. For example absence of mentioned phenomenas doesn't guarantees serialisability, as it shown in Berenson paper [1]. Implementation independent description of weak isolation levels can be found in Adya phd thesis [2] (and that's a tough read). Also nice evaluation of modern databases in terms of [2] can be found in Martin Kleppmann's github [3].

[1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/a-criti...[2] http://pmg.csail.mit.edu/papers/adya-phd.pdf[3] https://github.com/ept/hermitage

IgorPartola 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that under Repeatable Reads you also could get rollbacks and had to make sure that the transaction would be retried?

Also, I would like to point out that at least MySQL sand Postgres also support explicit named locks. This can often be a better choice than trying to rely on the implicit locks associated with the isolation levels when dealing with large "objects" - that is things like an order on a shopping site that spans many tables and rows. Unless you are very careful, concurrent transactions against things like this would access them in different order, causing deadlocks. Creating an explicit named lock for the whole object is often a very good way to fix this.

What if jobs are not the solution but the problem? aeon.co
615 points by jonbaer  22 hours ago   451 comments top 52
cesarbs 15 hours ago 1 reply      
Another good read on the topic: http://newramblerreview.com/book-reviews/political-science/t...

I like this bit:

"the knowledge worker is under severe external constraints. Much of their work is assisted or mediated through information technology, which contributes to a de-skilling of their cognitive labor. And on top of this they are expected to fully invest themselves in their jobs in a way that manufacturing laborers never did: they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work. The whole thing is exhausting."

chadcmulligan 17 hours ago 7 replies      
Maybe a better approach is how can we spend the surplus labour? There are lots of things I see need doing looking around my neighbourhood - public parks need cleaning up, old houses could be torn down and make some nice new ones, old roads could be fixed. Probably stacks of other things. Maybe some creative accounting will enable us to do these things? I know national parks near me have great paths that were built in the depression as a job creation scheme. Maybe this is the new status quo, there are still jobs that need skills and some are in shortage, though people with labour skills are in abundance - maybe use them instead of having people sit around while there's stuff to do but society can't put the two together.
reflexive 13 hours ago 2 replies      
Article has many holes in reasoning.

The measurable trends of the past half-century, and the plausible projections for the next half-century, are just too empirically grounded to dismiss as dismal science or ideological hokum

As NN Taleb points out exhaustively: social science puts too much faith in their models. "Measurable" trends? How do we even know what to measure, or that it's a trend? "Plausible" projections? What is the scientific measure of plausibility?

theres not enough work to go around

There's a limitless amount of work - it just doesn't pay minimum wage. Every time you lower the minimum wage, it makes a new class of activities profitable.

youve just met an attractive stranger at a party, or youre online looking for someone, anyone, but you dont ask: So, what do you do?

This ubiquitous question may be asked and answered in the sense of "what are you passionate about" rather than "what is your largest source of income". It would be great if those co-incide, but that's often not the case.

Animats 19 hours ago 4 replies      
We're there already. There are vast numbers of people who cannot make an economic contribution large enough to cover their costs.

Education won't help. Teach a human how to do something, and you have one human who can do it. Teach a computer how to do something, and you can have as many computers as needed doing it. The US has already hit "peak school" in terms of economic benefit. About half of college graduates take jobs that don't really require a college education. Trade schools do even worse.

The classic solutions are lots of poor people in slums and dying towns, and ethnic cleansing.

Practicality 20 hours ago 5 replies      
At this point I've already come to accept that fulltime labor for everyone is simply not going to happen. We just don't need it.

The big question is will the majority be able to maintain enough power to obtain income for those who aren't working, or will we see some kind of serious class warfare/starving populations?

This is a huge question in human history and it remains to be seen how we as a species are going to answer it.

[My hope regarding the labor is that it meaningless work can be replaced with research and development]

jokoon 20 hours ago 5 replies      
There is a difference between a job you like, and a job you do because you believe "work sets you free" or because you believe work is a some sort of value or a necessary pain everybody has to take part in.

I'm unemployed and I really don't think I have any duties to work in fast food or to deliver pizza because I must contribute. If I decide I can live poor and be happy with welfare, I will. I think it's a great thing to be able to live a frugal life and still be healthy enough.

I hear so many people yelling about moochers and parasites, it's becoming weird. Everybody wants everybody to behave like superman, yet nobody realizes you can't educate everyone to have enough qualified workers.

My great fear is that as time passes, more and more people decide to live like I do, and economies might change because people stop consuming.

joantune 5 hours ago 1 reply      
The answer: communal work. Academic research, science, your own projects! UBIs for nothing would only work for certain people. We should ask them to commit to, and then supervise them in projects. That'll be the future, not fuck work, but love the work that you're doing, because you chose it after all!

The author referred to some interesting concepts of lack of work that we can draw conclusions from: the Aristocrat era (on which there was a decay of this class, for excess of leisure IMO)

We still need to have a purpose in life, we should help people find more about their purpose and help them achieve it. UBIs can and should be complemented with bonuses for achievements. This way we can take back the work hard and get good results kind of balance. Difference will be: you can choose whatever you do, it doesn't need to give money directly (just imagine what that could do for scientific research)

nhaehnle 20 hours ago 3 replies      
The essay opens on a horrible false dichotomy.

No, full employment alone won't solve the problems of inequality that the essay very capably outlines.

But full employment may be necessary anyway, because having the sense of being needed and being useful may be an important factor to many people's well-being. Full employment is really just another way of saying that everyone can get this sense of being needed/useful via employment.

visarga 19 hours ago 1 reply      
Today most people work for companies they don't own. In the future, the unemployed will become self employed and work directly to support themselves. Some have land, and can cultivate food. Others can make furniture, or give medical consultations, or teach children. Even owning a small solar farm could be a source of income.

All of them were formerly professionals, now jobless and moneyless. So they have to work directly for themselves and barter products and services. It will evolve into a bazaar of companies and professionals, offering products and services to each other, maybe even with its own currency.

We might not have money but we have work power and are not stupid, and are motivated to find a solution. If nobody will hire you or give you free stuff, what are you going to do? You got to work for yourself, like it's always been since there are people on this planet. But this time, after you earn some money, you can buy your own robot, or get your friends with a small fab to make one for you.

So, coming automation, people will migrate from employment into self employment. By relying on each other, maybe with some help from the government as well, people can make it.

scandox 20 hours ago 3 replies      
> theres not enough work to go around, and what there is of it wont pay the bills unless of course youve landed a job as a drug dealer or a Wall Street banker, becoming a gangster either way.

This kind of lazy discourse from someone who has authored a whole book on the topic under discussion is remarkable.

brokenmasonjars 6 hours ago 0 replies      
I know people how love work. Actually majority of people who I'm surrounded by in my daily life - love work. It's been weird growing up...as every job I've ever held has turned me into a depressed turn. I hate work. I hate all of work. I hate spending time outside of my own parameters. I prefer waking up whenever I want. I prefer not having obligations. Work not only ruins this but adds an additional set of things to the mix; the commute, co-workers, and the sheer fact of hey - here comes the weekend and the time of freedom ticks away towards another week of hell and torture. I left the workforce to get a PhD. I used money I saved to learn to trade with my brokerage account, lots of losses before I got decent enough at it. I don't see my PhD as something for job holding, it was just something I wanted to accomplish. Trading is my income. Often I have to deal with the nonsense of people asking me what I do and I prefer just to lie and say I telework as an assistant or something because..I don't want to hear uneducated thoughts about how I make my money. That said..I'm not rich but eh..suppose it was the need to adapt and avoid things I hate that got me to this point. Either or..having grown up in a very bias setting that favors work I really look forward to the continue destruction of the labor force. This mentality that you must work for even the purpose of character must die. Not everyone is going to trade, a basic minimum income is needed etc..but yea..jobs must die and the sooner the better.
cmurf 14 hours ago 2 replies      
Well, if we're going to simplistically blame just one thing and blame the premise of jobs, why not blame the premise that everyone has a right to propagate, or do so as many times as they want? Obviously it's less provocative to say fuck work than fuck children; or jobs are the problem than too many humans are the problem. But if there aren't enough jobs to go around, part of that is because there are so many people.
freshhawk 17 hours ago 0 replies      
No better addition to the subject than David Graeber's piece: On Bullshit Jobs (http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/ - click the "here" link on that idiotic splash page)

And an interesting evaluation from The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/08/labour-m...)

The Economist does miss the point a bit by concentrating on a comparison between industrial jobs from a century ago and clerical jobs today. The author discards any notion that workers are intelligent enough to be affected by the true meaning and value to society their job creates, instead comparing physical pain from a industrial age factory job to the tedium of killing time on facebook at a cushy office job.

That's a cheap hack reframing in order to make a point in my opinion, either a sign of dishonesty or just being completely out of touch. Graeber is very clear that the meaninglessness of these tasks is important.

hermitdev 17 hours ago 1 reply      
The author lost my interest after stating 6% unemployment is good without even mentioning the Labor Participation Rate. It would be if the Labor Participation Rate [1] hadn't fallen as much as it has. The US economy has lost 3.2M jobs since Jan 2006 thru Oct 2016.

tl;dr The unemployment rate is falling because people are losing their benefits and falling out of the labor force, and no longer being counted as unemployed.

[1] http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

(editted for grammar)

pdonis 14 hours ago 1 reply      
The article lost me in the second paragraph, with "there is not enough work to go around". Seriously? There are so many things that need to be done. We need better energy sources. We need better health care. We need better infrastructure. I could go on and on.

There is a huge amount of work to be done. More than enough for everybody.

shin_lao 13 hours ago 2 replies      
When the steam machine was invented, it seriously disrupted Europe where most of people were working in the fields.

Some people rebelled and destroyed these machines who "stole their jobs". Some thinkers thought it would be the end of work.

There was a long and difficult transition period, but in the end, they were wrong. People moved to cities and did different jobs. New jobs.

It will be the same over and over again.

Fuffidish 4 hours ago 1 reply      
I think it's not true that there is no more work to be done. We are just stuck with the idea that jobs come with growth, and that only jobs that yield growth should be paying salaries.I believe if we sat down and talked we could find hundreds of jobs around us, it's just the money that is lacking, if we could access even a little percentage of the huge money spent in wars, entertainment, gambling,...Many cities, forests, beaches need cleaning, people and animals that need care, understaffed hospitals, etc... These jobs just don't pay. I'd be happy to hear your opinions on this.
etherealmachine 13 hours ago 0 replies      
The World Economic Forum estimates tech advances will destroy 5 to 7 million jobs in the next four years alone. In the coming years, Universal Basic Income will sound less and less fanciful after hordes of workers become completely unemployable through no fault of their own. And we aren't just talking about low skilled jobs anymore but white collar, professional and even creative jobs are all on the chopping block.
z3t4 20 hours ago 0 replies      
There will always be work maybe not paid work, but there's always work to do. A lot of "work" will be automated by robots, and even if we get AI and don't have to "work" ourself, we will still invent work, but we will not work because we need to, we will work because we want to.
carsongross 20 hours ago 11 replies      
The essay suffers from Ted-talk disease: lots of grand gestures and bromides, not as much rigorous thinking. The underlying problem is an important one, however.

A little-discussed solution to this problem is one I would like to see tried, distributism:


A book I am currently reading (and enjoying) on it is:


lstroud 13 hours ago 0 replies      
Article takes political positions as axioms for the goals of an economy. This makes it hard to say much other than they agree with themselves. Lots of straw men running around.
adentranter 15 hours ago 0 replies      
I feel there is another point we are not looking at which worries me.

The author connects work to our self-worth which I think is an important connection to be made. If our worth is defined by work completed/productivity and there is a lack of work, slowly it means there is going to be a rise of people with a lack of self-worth (And being unemployed means your at home alone alot more)Depression will come.

I worry that this trend of lack of work will begin to lead a rise in suicide dueto a compounded effect of lack of self-worth/identity.

Unsure if this is a sound conclusion to draw, but it worries me.

metasean 19 hours ago 0 replies      
atemerev 20 hours ago 2 replies      
"Jobs" are a relatively recent phenomenon, and are not forever. Inequality, however, was and is forever.

Basic income is economically unsustainable.

rdtsc 18 hours ago 2 replies      
> Most jobs arent created by private, corporate investment, so raising taxes on corporate income wont affect employment.

But won't raising taxes on corporate income drive corporation to other jurisdiction? So employment in that company then won't just slowly trail off, but will look like a cliff, dropping to 0.

So isn't that idea ignoring the fact that companies don't have to stick into one place and so we arbitrarily tax them and then provide basic income to everyone in that community?

It goes the other way as well. In some places like West Virginia they've bent backward to accommodate coal mines, easing EPA regulation, destroying the environment and so on. Just to keep companies around. It is like a bad abusive relationship.

Other states for example know the game so they would court and offer incentive for companies to move to their state. I've seen that happen and it was painful for the original community to lose all those jobs.

I agree that we need something like basic income and the accounting is not the only problem, the social and moral aspect is a just as big.

The pessimist in me says we couldn't even meaningfully have a decent health insurance system like other civilized countries. We are a long way from any kind of distributism.

It is good there is talk and discussion about this. The ideological re-framing of this might have to be done very carefully.

One quick example I can think off the top of my head is how in Alaska there was redistribution of income from natural resources. People there probably don't think in terms of "socialism" or "handouts". Well at least the people I know there didn't a few years ago...

Wonder if basic income can be advocated in those terms - "You deserve this because we've created the automation / robots to work for all of us..." or "We want to free people's time so they can volunteer and help their own communities...". Some will play video games and consume drugs perhaps all day, some will decide maybe they want to visit some lonely elderly person in a nursing home or help in the hospital or soup kitchen some more.

Tempest1981 6 hours ago 0 replies      
I'm hoping someone can explain this:

You dont need profits to reinvest, to finance the expansion of your companys workforce or output, as the recent history of Apple and most other corporations has amply demonstrated.

How do you reinvest without profits, and what is the Apple example? Apple makes a profit, and reinvests... confusing. Is he suggesting a loan, perhaps?

biafra 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Don't confuse passion with doing overtime. When I do things outside work that have to do with computers - for example helping kids to learn programming - I do this because I like programming. Not to please my employer. As a friend put but nicely: we would do our job without being paid because we like programming so much. But then we would need to do a different job to get the money to get by.
grigjd3 13 hours ago 0 replies      
Some variance of the end of labor seems to work its way around every five or so years. The focus of these articles are always the abstract concepts of labor that make it into politidal campaigns and economics. They never seem to notice that people often enjoy work: camaraderie, taking pleasure in a job well done and seeing how one's personal efforts can make a positive impact. What we should be struggling against is dehumanizing or demeaning work. People should be able to seek personal meaning in what they do.
hvindin 15 hours ago 0 replies      
Something thats probably worth pointing out, deciding that you are going to go into a specialty in criminal enterprise doesnt make you wealthy. The same amount of hard work is required to become a drug dealer and make a living as is required to do other jobs and make as adequate living, actually it requires a lot more work.

Obviously this is not relevant to the entire article, but I would suggest doing something like reading freakonomics before making what are imperically wrong statements.

Not that I dissagree entirely with the overall argument made by the article. I just feel like some of the examples could have been researched a little more.

choonway 13 hours ago 0 replies      
Where we are now is similar to the era where nuclear weapons were theoretically possible, but the practical implementation was still elusive until ww2 provided the impetus.

Similarly, at this juncture self-production needs more effort at the technology and engineering side, not more op-eds by economists.

/r/reprap was started as a movement to enable self-production, but sadly, these days people buy 3D printers enabled by the movement but don't subscribe to their philosophy.

rileyphone 18 hours ago 0 replies      
It's not so much that we will be entering a post-work society, but rather one where the value of labour as a commodity continues to fall. Let's hope this means more meaningfull, non-alienating work.
dnprock 17 hours ago 0 replies      
I think it's an effect of globalization. Once you're linked to other economies, you'll have to run at full speed to compete with the other guys.
jwatte 20 hours ago 0 replies      
As the tweet says:"Just how much have we fucked up when robots doing all the work is somehow a bad thing?"
wallace_f 16 hours ago 0 replies      
I studied Economics and Public Policy in uni. I just came to the realization, what essentially boils down to 'utopian theorycrafting' seems fine and all, but when we are currently using only a very small fraction of the capability of our current system it makes me feel that an earnest attempt should be something more pragmatic than dreaming up our utopian society.
generousMuffin 13 hours ago 1 reply      
When there are no more jobs that need to be done, we will invent something new and create new jobs. No one would have imagined 50 years ago that so many people would be software developers, designers, game developers, etc... Innovation builds on innovation
redthrow 9 hours ago 0 replies      
> Economists believe in full employment

This doesn't sound right. It's laypeople who tend to measure the economy by employment.

Economists tend to measure the economy by production.

danschumann 13 hours ago 0 replies      
Uh, jobs are not obsolete. If everyone who didn't have a job practiced massage, we'd all be able to get a rubdown for $10/hour. There's always a way to add value to the market place.
coldplay 17 hours ago 0 replies      
crdoconnor 20 hours ago 2 replies      
"These days, everybody from Left to Right from the economist Dean Baker to the social scientist Arthur C Brooks, from Bernie Sanders to Donald Trump addresses this breakdown of the labour market by advocating full employment, as if having a job is self-evidently a good thing, no matter how dangerous, demanding or demeaning it is. "

And, when you experiment with a job guarantee program and turn it into a basic income scheme you can see why:


The increasing feminization of the program (caused in part by economic recovery that pulled most men out of the program and into the private sector) proved to be a political problem. Government officials adopted the attitude that the program was providing jobs to economically inactive women who should be at home instead of working. I wont go into the details (in part because I am not sufficiently familiar with them) but officials created an alternative scheme by which the remaining men would be moved into an unemployment program and the women would be moved into welfare. These moves were voluntary, but higher pay in either unemployment or welfare was the attraction that helped to gut the Jefes program. One of my PhD students continued to study participants as the program was reducedand found that women would rationally take the higher pay in welfare but continue to work in their jobs (without pay) because they found substantial benefits in the social networks they had created through work. They also wanted to contribute to their communities.

Somehow I doubt this story has permeated James Livingston's Brooklyn bubble though.

mdpm 17 hours ago 0 replies      
When men are rightly occupied, their amusement grows out of their work, as the colour-petals out of a fruitful flower;when they are faithfully helpful and compassionate, all their emotions become steady, deep, perpetual, and vivifying to the soul as the natural pulse to the body. But now, having no true business, we pour our whole masculine energy into the false business of money-making; and having no true emotion, we must have false emotions dressed up for us to play with, not innocently, as children with dolls, but guiltily and darkly.

- John Ruskin

IanDrake 19 hours ago 3 replies      
Forget the word "job" and instead use the word "value" to understand just how silly this idea is.

What he's saying is that no one needs to do anything of value anymore. You know, like the guy who built the house you live in, chopped down the trees it was built with, managed the project to build it, inspected the building to make sure it was put together correctly, etc...

Hundreds of people had jobs to make the shelter you value. They want something in exchange for that value. These pseudo intellectuals can't seem to understand this basic underpinning of civilization.

The exchange of value is as old as time and nothing is going to change that for a long time.

EugeneOZ 17 hours ago 0 replies      
Sorry, I missed the point: what is the proposed solution? I mean, what is alternative?
aminok 6 hours ago 1 reply      
>I know what youre thinking we cant afford this! But yeah, we can, very easily. We raise the arbitrary lid on the Social Security contribution, which now stands at $127,200, and we raise taxes on corporate income, reversing the Reagan Revolution.

In other words, we massively increase the scope of human-rights-violating income taxation, while chasing capital out of the country.

The problem here is that the author is not making the link between this:

>Those jobs that disappeared in the Great Recession just arent coming back, regardless of what the unemployment rate tells you the net gain in jobs since 2000 still stands at zero

And this:

>The fastest growing component of household income since 1959 has been transfer payments from government. By the turn of the 21st century, 20 per cent of all household income came from this source from what is otherwise known as welfare or entitlements.

The increase in social spending is the most likely cause of the decline in the labor participation rate and the less-than-stellar wage/productivity growth.

>But, wait, isnt our present dilemma just a passing phase of the business cycle? What about the job market of the future? Havent the doomsayers, those damn Malthusians, always been proved wrong by rising productivity, new fields of enterprise, new economic opportunities? Well, yeah until now, these times. The measurable trends of the past half-century, and the plausible projections for the next half-century, are just too empirically grounded to dismiss as dismal science or ideological hokum. They look like the data on climate change you can deny them if you like, but youll sound like a moron when you do.

The author is lying. The empirical data does not confirm his technological unemployment hypothesis. The demand for labor globally has grown over the last half century, and it has accelerated over the last couple of decades. Wages have grown faster over the last 20 years than in any period of history:


Another leftist demagogue looking for government money.

If you want to understand how automation affects the demand for labor, I strongly recommend this article over the submitted post:


unabst 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Work is not about building character. It's about getting shit done. The delusion isn't in work itself. It's in thinking it somehow makes or breaks us. In reality, it has nothing to do with us. Once you get your ego out of the way, it only gets easier. For only then can we truly focus ON THE TASK and not ON OURSELVES. And it's when we see the fruits of our labor in all of its extraordinaire that ordinary people become heroes.

There is plenty of work. The only problem is with quality, because the fact of the matter is, most work just sucks. And it just gets worse.

That's because most work is delegated. Meaning, it's packaged and marginalized into it's simplest form to minimize mistakes and maximize simplicity, and it just keeps raining from above. Such work sucks to most people. It's Foxconn, it's berry picking, it's beneath us.

But it isn't. That's the delusion.

And this kind of work we have infinite amounts of. What every aspiring entrepreneur needs are good workers that just get shit done regardless of the task, and that first hire must be themselves. Be picky and you're screwed. Obsess about character and self worth and you might as well just burn all your time and money. Those things are important, but the point is, they have nothing to do with any task at hand. Those are the HUGE tasks that are NOT AT HAND. Even if you're working for yourself the IRS will rain work on you, your clients will, a bad sales day will, a broken web site will.

There was an interview with Elon Musk once where he was asked how he had spent his day so far. He explained how he was buying up all the USB cables at the local electronic stores because one of his suppliers missed their deadline and he needed to finish building some cars. How fun is that? Imagine all the glorious work he could be doing. Imagine how much his time is worth. He could be making millions. Except, that is precisely how he makes millions. By chasing down USB cables to meet deadlines. And volunteering to be interviewed.

There was also an interview with Sean P. Diddy Combs where he was asked how great life was and he basically said he had no complaints, but that he'd rather be having sex all day. And he is absolutely right. There is no work that is going to beat sex. Work = Not sex. That's it. He is worth 700 million. Madonna was also asked about sex, and she basically admitted being too busy for it. No shit! She is worth 500 million. Anyone can fuck all day. But that isn't work, and that isn't how anyone becomes a pop mogul.

The point is, stroking your own ego and thinking certain work is beneath you is like confusing work for something better. It isn't. It's like refusing to work because it's not fun or sexy or sex. And whether it's taking out the trash or making a presentation to a VC or just coding, work is all just work. It's shit that just needs to get done.

Then what's the difference between me or you buying a USB cable versus Elon Musk? The only difference is what happened years ago when Elon sat down and made a decision to build Electric Cars. The only difference is when he decided he wanted to colonize Mars. After such decisions were made, the rest is all just work, and it's mostly work that just rains down from above. He went to Russia to buy rocket engines because he had to. He poured in his own money because he had to. He watched a rocket explode because he was lied to about the specs of some bolts, because he had to. Is this the work we all seek? There is no seeking. There is no above or beneath. There is no character building. There is no you. There is just work work work!

There is plenty of work. Fuck not working. We need to get back to work not because it defines us, but because we can define our dreams. Let's Make America Great Again (TM). And when we see our new America in all of its extraordinaire that is when we become heroes again -- not the assholes we are known for.

The American Dream requires American Dreamers. It's all work, and no sex. The "fuck" in "fuck work" is as close as it gets.

andrewclunn 17 hours ago 0 replies      
Free money for everybody! Cool now to go buy some groceries... hey where's the food? Oh I guess the farmer realized they didn't have to work any more either... it's almost like money isn't some magical thing that automatically has value, but merely serves as a medium of exchanging value, something this author completely misses.
known 10 hours ago 0 replies      
partycoder 13 hours ago 0 replies      
Well, a call to rethink the concept of a job itself, is a very provocative and interesting idea. I would like to see more discussions around that.
debt 17 hours ago 0 replies      
automated Jobs could spell the end of design.

automated jobs could spell out the end of capitalism.

but idk

bertiewhykovich 19 hours ago 1 reply      
Please just read Marx already.
jsonmez 13 hours ago 0 replies      
jondubois 17 hours ago 3 replies      
I agree with the characterization of investment bankers and hedge fund managers as 'gangsters'.

I'm tired of hearing these people rationalize their work as being 'to allocate capital efficiently' - Their real job description is 'to dilute real value and centralize capital'. These people don't create jobs; they transfer jobs from small businesses to big corporations.

Those big corporations gain market share not by offering a superior product for a lower price; they do so by manipulating the markets and using the media to project a false image of quality...

If you go to MacDonald's and get a burger, if you forget that you're eating a Big Mac for a second and try to think about it objectively; it's very poor quality; the meat actually tastes like wet cardboard and the bun is like 70% air!

Wells Fargo says customers gave up right to sue by having signatures forged boingboing.net
125 points by petethomas  12 hours ago   54 comments top 10
t0mas88 4 hours ago 1 reply      
In the Netherlands a bank got destroyed a few years ago by a single person starting a media campaign for a bank-run. This was done in response to "shady practices" on the mortgage side of the bank.

He got people to withdraw over 600 million from DSB Bank in a few days, which caused the bank to run out of liquidity and forced them to freeze accounts. This meant they lost all trust in the market and needed to ask other banks for emergency financing. All other banks declined (with good reasons, a bank falling apart combined with pending legal action on the mortgage side is a very high risk for them to take).

So within three weeks DSB was bankrupt. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSB_Bank

I can imaging some disgruntled customers going after Wells Fargo in the same way. They have severe legal action pending (which makes them risky for others to save) and have destroyed their image by their reactions to this (which makes it easier to motivate customers to take action). All ingredients that killed DSB are there... The only difference is that DSB was one of the smaller banks and Wells Fargo is huge.

kutkloon7 5 hours ago 0 replies      
The article is wrong. Wells fargo says customers gave up their right to sue by signing up for an account, which is far more defendable from a legal point of view.

Unfortunately, this is common practice and it also shows one of the biggest problems of the western world. It is quite profitable for a company to screw over customers. Just discourage them as much as possible to go to court by letting them sign a large page of legal gibberish, and don't screw them over too much, and the company will probably be fine.

techsupporter 11 hours ago 0 replies      
The Boing Boing article basically quotes this Reuters article, so I think the Reuters one should be the one linked as it is the source and is more in-depth:


coldcode 2 hours ago 0 replies      
It would seem to me that since WD offers free arbitration the prudent thing in this case would be for every single person affected to file for it on the same day and simultaneously withdraw their money leaving only $1 in the account. A bank run and 100,000 filed cases would make for a fine mess.
slededit 11 hours ago 2 replies      
Despite the histrionics of this article, its actually an interesting question from a legal perspective. In the case of an account the customer never agreed to open - are they bound by the agreement which opened their primary account, or is there no legal agreement in place?

Assuming the original arbitration clause covered the entire business relationship - not just matters specific to the account opened at signing then it ultimately is a question of whether the fraudulent account is a new business "relationship".

Programmatic 48 minutes ago 0 replies      
It is despicable to me that citizens can be denied their right to access legal remedy by companies that won't deliver services to individuals without them agreeing to binding arbitration. Access to courts seems like it should be the cornerstone of society and should not be allowed to be removed so easily.

The appeal of arbitration for a pair of similarly sophisticated entities that have the ability to vet the clauses of the contract is obvious. But the potential for abuse with one large organization picking the arbiter and a lot of unsophisticated individuals trying their luck against them is pretty obvious too.

johngalt 11 hours ago 0 replies      
There is an obvious legal gap at work here and it isnt just wells fargo exploiting it.

Once a business has your info on file they can effectively open additional accounts or services for you at will. It can be difficult to seek any sort of remedy because it would be hard to prove damages except in extreme cases.

DannyBee 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Let's take a gander at the federal arbitration act:"A written provision in any maritime transaction or a contract evidencing a transaction involving commerce to settle by arbitration a controversy ...shall be valid, irrevocable, and enforceable, save upon such grounds as exist at law or in equity for the revocation of any contract."

Want to guess what grounds exist at law and equity for the revocation of a contract?:)

Note also the now-common practice of requiring individual arbitration is not well-tested in court either. The FAA pretty clearly preempts court class actions when there are mandatory arbitration provisions. However, it is silent, and it's purpose unrelated, to whether that arbitration is individual or class arbitration. It seems likely to me that a state could reasonably say forcing individual arbitration was against their public policy, and not have that pre-empted by the FAA.

thr0waway1239 11 hours ago 1 reply      
Outrageous! This is like a software company which pushes unwanted OS upgrades on its customers and then hides behind customers agreeing to a nag-screen exploding "offer" when the upgrade bricks some of the previously fine computers. Thankfully we in the software business don't have to worry about such things, because we are above such tactics.

All you little people, its really your fault for being such small fry...

logicallee 4 hours ago 2 replies      
perhaps due to the clickbaity title, it seems people are reading "agree to arbitration" as "agree that Well Fargo's internal decisions are final and waive their right to legal remedy."

let's firstly identify that yes, this is how people in the thread take "agree to arbitration."

Next let me ask: I did a quick Google search,


expecting to see that, for example, perhaps arbitration always results in the larger player being awarded whatever they say. (Meaning that it is equal to saying "agree that its decisions are final and customers waive all recourse.")

But it seems the link isn't quite conclusive - it seems the results just show that the "Forced arbitration clauses almost always favor the company over the individual" - which is very strong language, but is about "favor" and not outright as categorical.

So I'm curious if people have experience with arbitration -- is it fair to read the arbitration clause as being de facto tantamount to Wells Fargo's decisions being final? (With the arbitration itself being an afterthought, a mere formality.)

Or is it just a bit lopsided, but still not quite as final and definitive as that?

I ask because in theory, in an environment of frivolous lawsuits that can cost companies literally hundreds of thousands or millions of legal fees, it might certainly make sense for arbitration clauses to limit the extent to which they are embroiled in huge lawsuits.

This reason for arbitration would be a bit different from the reason that "it's really just an excuse to say whatever we say is final."

If I were a corporation, I wouldn't think that an arbitration clause is the same as saying "our company's policies are final and we decide what they mean: you waive all right to any recourse".

Is that what other people here think it means?

(Genuine, open question - as you can see I did a Google search more or less with this phrasing.) Curious what you think, or your experiences. Or whether you've used arbitration clauses in the past, either on the corporate side against a frivolous lawsuit, or as a consumer against a large corporation. (I don't expect corporate lawyers from large corporations to read this comment and respond honestly - but small startup CEO's and individuals, sure. Of course, if you're doing evil work for a large corporation as a corporate lawyer enforcing lopsided contracts, I guess you're welcome to come clean under a throwaway...)

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