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Security Onion A Linux distro for intrusion detection security-onion-solutions.github.io
48 points by telecomix  2 hours ago   9 comments top 5
unethical_ban 1 hour ago 0 replies      
I deployed it at home a few years ago - a hardware server on a mirrored switchport. Really easy to set up. And from what I hear, the multi-node setup with manager is easy, too. If you want IDS but don't have a high software budget for Cisco FirePOWER or Palo Alto or $VENDORIPS, this would be a good start.

It will still take a lot of personnel time, though. Tuning alerts is critical.

phantom_oracle 31 minutes ago 2 replies      
Can someone explain what is the use-case for this OS?

Do I use it as an OS to monitor my infrastructure?

Eg. I use this OS to monitor and analyze my servers, containers, etc (which are running their own host/container OSes)


Do I use this as an OS for my servers and my containers?

Eg. Security-Onion as the Host and Security-Onion containers on my infrastructure

It isn't quite clear from what I read/see on the landing-page.

bbayles 1 hour ago 0 replies      
I've been a fan of Security Onion for a while. Richard Bejtlich's book "Practice of Network Security Monitoring" discusses setting it up and how to incorporate it into an operations center's routine.

Notably, Security Onion and other tools are very difficult to use in cloud environments where you don't control the network! There are ways of getting a sensor access to the relevant traffic, but they require careful architecture. Even when set up properly, encrypted traffic defeats much of the deep packet inspection-based monitoring.

hsnewman 58 minutes ago 1 reply      
Ok, not to start a OS war, but I run pfsense, which has snort (and IPS), and pretty much any other security tool you can imagine, and it's based on BSD rather than Linux, which has a history of being more secure.
rrggrr 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Turn this into a small appliance I don't have to manage and take my money. Send me alerts via Slack and ask me to confirm suggested corrective actions.
Series of books diving deep into the core mechanisms of the JavaScript language github.com
215 points by hitr  8 hours ago   44 comments top 14
komali2 5 minutes ago 0 replies      
I've met with Kyle Simpson a couple of times. He develops a lot of our coursework at Makersquare/Hack Reactor. Definitely a sharp guy and very down to earth. His code can be above my head but he's really good at bringing it back down to a level the students can understand, which as a former teacher I think is even more difficult that getting to an expert level in the first place.
kabes 6 hours ago 5 replies      
I can highly recommend these books. They're one of the only books that do a real deep-dive into the language. I often have to interview people for javascript jobs. It's astonishing how few of them actually get how the `this` keyword, closures, prototypes etc work. So the title of the series may be arrogant, but not wrong.
petercooper 5 hours ago 2 replies      
I wouldn't normally do this, but since his books have popped up on here at this exact moment.. Kyle's teaching some short JS classes in London this coming week if you wanna come: https://ti.to/cooperpress/kyle-simpson-quick-workshops/ (disclosure: I'm the organiser)
franciscop 7 hours ago 3 replies      
I really don't get the arrogant "You don't know X". Maybe I know it, maybe I don't know it. But if I know it already, then I am wasting my time since I think I don't know it (not really). However if I don't know it, then the condescending tone doesn't really motivate me to want to know (while I love to learn about Javascript).
131hn 6 hours ago 1 reply      
An entire book is dedicated to "this", when it's only "the stuff on the left side of the dot" (it changed my life when i understood that)
bengale 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Seriously good books. I recommend them to anyone working in JavaScript.
dildo_fingers 3 hours ago 0 replies      
He has a couple of courses on Frontendmasters.com that are amazing.
paradite 4 hours ago 5 replies      
From what I read, the author uses double quotes for string literals, "some string".

Most of the style guides and linters recommend using single quotes, any idea on the advantage of each?

616c 7 hours ago 0 replies      
This and your Windows debugging comments make me think you and your friends must be one very geeky crew.

I am jealous of all the scenes you follow, maam/sir!

fapjacks 5 hours ago 1 reply      
If you search Amazon for these titles, you'll see the author reacting poorly to bad reviews.
mlvljr 6 hours ago 1 reply      
This fella has some nice vids on the more advanced JS (speaking of): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Konu9sHl-nk
mlvljr 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Can the web use a language, simple enough to not need multiple books to allow to understand its mechanics?

As this metaclass / function VS Function / whatever dispatch business is much worse than recently discussed message-passing purism, in its worst forms.

distrill 7 hours ago 0 replies      
come on
peterashford 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Are the opening words, "The horror... the horror"?
Intel Software Guard Extensions for Linux 01.org
50 points by snaky  5 hours ago   16 comments top 5
pierrec 1 hour ago 2 replies      
Skimming through the docs, I'm still not sure how they can guarantee that an enclave can't be meaningfully emulated. Do they simply mean that you can't emulate a specific processor (since each processor uses a unique key)? That wouldn't be the same guarantee at all. Or is it just impractical to emulate SGX with acceptable performance? I'm probably missing something. (Note, I know SGX can be virtualized properly, but I'm specifically referring to emulation that would allow you to effectively debug an SGX-protected program).
the8472 4 hours ago 3 replies      

Except from ever more sophisticated side-channel attacks.

I can see why someone would want to have it in cloud machines. But I hope it never makes it into enduser devices, it's only going to be used for DRM there.

realo 2 hours ago 0 replies      
This would have been very,, very useful and immensely popular in the Embedded world (and all those Internet-Of-Thingies).

Intel: make this work on some future generation of Baytrail, with a proper version of Linux (Yocto comes to mind), and you might become relevant again.

eximius 3 hours ago 1 reply      
Does anyone know how much room one of these things would have anyway?
bogomipz 54 minutes ago 1 reply      
What current Intel CPUs contain this secure enclave?
The problem with reinforced concrete theconversation.com
70 points by danfru  7 hours ago   27 comments top 11
3pt14159 2 hours ago 4 replies      
I used to be structural engineer, and while things may have changed in the past 8 years since I left, I doubt it.

The problem with structural engineering is incentives. It is one of the reasons that I left. Most structural engineering companies are filled with conservative, boring engineers that prefer to look up pre-designed segments and don't make full use of the steel design handbook or building codes.

For example, in Canada if you have a non-load bearing brick outer face (most brick buildings in Canada) you're allowed to reduce the wind load by 10%. I was the only person I knew that knew this because I actually read the steel, concrete, and wood design handbooks front to back while I made notes. Furthermore almost nobody has read the building code "just because" they might hop to a section here or there when they need it, but they're generally not going to just sit down and read the thing.

So when I would design buildings I would be able to take advantage of a lot more things than most people. This lead to my buildings being cheaper / easier to build, which of course lead to our engineering fees looking like a larger portion of the job.

The problem with reinforced concrete is the same. Engineers have no financial incentive to make alterations to their designs to make the buildings last longer. It is almost trivial to make sure steel wont rust (or to double or triple a buildings life) but it makes construction costs go up 0.01% and makes engineerings fees go up 0.1% so nobody does it. Regulators are to blame too. There are amazing concretes (Ultra High Performance Concretes) we should be using in our buildings that completely lack even needing steel because they are so ductile and strong (MPa 200 for the one I was familiar with, Ductal by Lafarge), but it's impossible to use in construction in Canada because the code is so rigid.

dkbrk 4 hours ago 2 replies      
This article has many problems. Most importantly, building techniques such as "steel frame", "traditional bricks and mortar", "mud brick" and "rammed earth" are far less capable than reinforced concrete. The article implies that as these are more "durable" they are superior to reinforced concrete. This is a false equivalence of staggering magnitude. Reinforced concrete is the great enabler of modern high-rise construction and civil engineering; most projects simply would not be able to be built without reinforced concrete. Without reinforced concrete the world would be a very different place.

I take special issue with the article's use of pseudoscientic false analogies.

> This means that concrete structures, for all their stone-like superficial qualities, are actually made of the skeletons of sea creatures ground up with rock. It takes millions upon millions of years for these sea creatures to live, die and form into limestone. This timescale contrasts starkly with the life spans of contemporary buildings.

This is utter drivel.

There is a valid point in that for smaller scale constructions other techniques may be applicable which are otherwise ignored; also that there are alternatives to steel as the reinforcing material, both for prestressed structures and not.

Eric_WVGG 1 hour ago 0 replies      
This reminded me of a bit from 2014 where some researchers claim to have rediscovered the Roman's particular recipe for long-lasting concrete.


For laypersons http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2877547/Why-C...

Lagged2Death 27 minutes ago 0 replies      
The depressing counterpoint, I suppose, is that 99% of the time, you're not building the Pantheon, you're building something that was intended to be minimally-acceptable, utilitarian, and disposable from the get-go: a parking garage, a tilt-up big-box building, a freeway on-ramp, a strip mall. All of which may well be obsolete in a few decades just because the urban environment changes rapidly.

If you could figure out a systematic way to cut the cost and the lifetime of such lowbrow, mass-produced concrete structures in half, developers wouldn't hesitate, they'd jump on it immediately.

We revere longevity only in retrospect.

reidacdc 3 hours ago 1 reply      
The very first sentence of this article is a giant red flag, the comparison between the Pantheon in Rome and modern concrete is deeply misleading -- Roman concrete was a different material than modern Portland-cement/sand/gravel scheme, it had better resistance to cracking and could set under water. [1]

The rest of the article seems to be, if you think on different time-scales and use different cost-benefit criteria (e.g. include or exclude environmental effects), you get different answers about the suitability of various materials. This is indisputably true.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_concrete

jpt4 5 hours ago 1 reply      
An alternative to steel for concrete reinforcement is glass blown basalt [0], which struck my interest via its use in a project for free-floating, (geopolymer) concrete seasteading vessels [1].

[0] http://basalt-rebar.com/

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Floathouse/

fpaboim 2 hours ago 1 reply      
I'm a civil engineer. This is bullshit. Reinforced concrete uses much less concrete because, well, you have rebar to take care of tensile stresses and concrete does well with compression so it's much more efficient, which is basic. Also, and a very important point, reinforced concrete (in general) tends to fail in non-catastrophic ways making it safer to use and easier to spot conceptual errors in the project and building process. Reinforced concrete can also be recycled, the concrete becomes structural blocks (I even worked with these before) and the rebar is steel so thats easily recycleable too. In the end, it's cheap and affordable so you can build much more with reinforced concrete than with concrete reinforced with carbon fiber which would last forever but would cost a fortune (this can also be used to reinforce reinforced concrete...) making housing unaffordable to a large part of the world. Do you also really want to spend that much more to make a project to last 500 years without using reinforced concrete? You know that goes into the equation when engineers project strucures right? Oh well, clickbait.
greydius 5 hours ago 2 replies      
The only salient point this article mentions (but only briefly) is that concrete production generates a huge amount of CO2. Everything else is hogwash. In terms of strength, versatility, and cost, steel-reinforced concrete has proven to be the greatest building material humans have ever devised. It is by no means perfect, but nothing is. Concrete needs to be maintained just like anything else. With neglect it decays.
RP_Joe 3 hours ago 0 replies      
jhallenworld 3 hours ago 0 replies      
I'm interested in the long term durability of pre-stressed concrete- in its case the reinforcement is critical.
guard-of-terra 38 minutes ago 0 replies      
Where I live there's a huge number of apartment blocks, most of them built in 60s and onwards, and the apartments are the sole place to live and the prime asset for most people.

They'll definitely start crumbling in a few decades and not many people will be able to afford a new home as well as deprecation of their main asset. Have no idea how this might ever resolve, frankly.

Dating Ancient Papyri larryhurtado.wordpress.com
15 points by r0muald  2 hours ago   5 comments top 3
gus_massa 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Interesting, but with a few photos this would be even more interesting. (See for example the post from https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=medievalbooks.nl )
Aelinsaar 36 minutes ago 0 replies      
"But, as with all such judgement-activities, experts can disagree, often by several decades, even a century or so, and sometimes even more."

That sure escalated in a hurry! Decades... Century... More than a Century. Still, I get it, when the next best tool (radiocarbon dating) deals in millennia.

tsaprailis 1 hour ago 2 replies      
Now that's a weird fetish. I obviously don't have anything meaningful to add to the discussion.
Infrastructure Software is Dead mirantis.com
172 points by ctdean  13 hours ago   86 comments top 18
ewams 12 hours ago 5 replies      
It is really funny, I agree with this 100% but also think because of the new norm of instant gratification this person is totally wrong. I have customers that all the time state they want to move to an openstack platform but have no programmers or unwilling to hire programmers. So of course we go down that path, look at the capex and opex and their brains explode. Then we look at aws/azure/vCloud and regular internal cloud with its associated costs and they come back from their heart attacks.

If you are a services company, he is right, you should be focusing on outcomes. But, if you can't tell me in 2-3 sentences what problem you are solving and how it benefits the customer you are doing it wrong.

This is a world of businesses and businesses need to make money, usually. Everyone gets so caught up on the new hot thing or the new "revolution" or what the competition is doing without thinking of what problem they are trying to solve or what actual value they are providing. This article says they provide outcomes, sure I can provide outcomes by moving you to SAP, or VDI, or hyperconverged, but what problem is this solving?

Don't tell me it "cut costs", it rarely does and lots of people smarter than me have shown that cutting costs are not the top priority of most leadership.

Back to the point of the article. I have made a lot of money in consulting. I now sell consulting services. You know how I do it? "Yes Mr customer how are you? Cool great, I am fine thanks. So what problems does your organization have, what are your goals, and how can I help you?"

Boom. You are all welcome.

Don't talk about product or you will lose to me or someone better. Don't talk money or you lose. Don't talk fads or you lose. Talk about the business and how you will help it reach its goals, overcomes it's problems, and grow!

devonkim 2 hours ago 1 reply      
I've been consulting for public sector and the companies in the Fortune 500 that are behind the software and operations curve from even start-up companies and always will by choice + self-imposed bureaucracy. The problem I've observed consistently across various custom cloud and openstack implementations is that none of the products and technologies that people are developing are able to succeed because everyone assumes that they "solved" basic infrastructure management a decade ago when their operations teams are woefully unskilled, unmotivated, and unable to meet the demands of today's environments. Most organizations do not have monitoring beyond what comes out of the box even for production environments, most places do not have defined SLAs, almost nobody tests backups or their DR runbooks even though they spent $2M+ on a DR implementation. None of this is the fault of the engineers though; their managers wanted silos and people that just go implement their promotion-garnering plans that all go south.
mattbee 6 hours ago 0 replies      
As MD of a medium-sized UK-based cloud server company (Bytemark, cough), I'm so glad to hear someone else saying this. We made the decision in 2010 to design and build our own cloud services stack - from scratch, ultimately including a low-level storage layer. This was just after Openstack was announced, so it felt like a risk not to get on this particular wagon.

We opened our service to customers within a year, and fixed what felt like small silly bugs while constantly racing to keep the platform up. Openstack kept getting richer and puffier and more important-sounding. Even though we thought we would eventually "make the switch" I couldn't for the life of me find any success stories, and looking at the software it seemed to have some crucial gaps that we'd need to fill, and a bunch of layers that we didn't need or care about for our simple "cloud servers" offering.

We're at the point where mayyyyybe we could think about switching out one or two components, but my gut feeling is that 1) these are quite simple components for us where our maintenance burden is manageable, 2) our model of VMs is slightly different (more permanent) than Openstack's and, of course 3) the integration effort doesn't seem worth it, and the loss of experience compared to our own software seems a huge risk if it puts the stability of our platform at risk. So it still feels like picking a fight with our own stable software for benefit that was way down the line.

We're in exactly the same spot at Boris - our customers care about the service, not the software. There is just so much integration with our own hardware, network, data centre & customer services operation that's outside the scope of Openstack that it never quite seemed relevant.

ams6110 12 hours ago 6 replies      
Everybodys OpenStack software is equally bad. Its also as bad as all the other infrastructure software out there software-defined networking, software-defined storage, cloud management platforms, platforms-as-service, container orchestrators, you name it. Its all full of bugs, hard to upgrade and a nightmare to operate. Its all bad.

100% my experience with OpenStack. And the breaking releases every 6 months only add insult to injury.

jpgvm 10 hours ago 3 replies      
More provocative over insightful.

Infrastructure software isn't dead - but Openstack is.

It may still be used, and may continue to see a bit of media now and then but really it's gone the way of Puppet/Cfengine/<many proprietry infra software here>.

It missed it's chance to be good by allowing itself to be corrupted a massive design by committee disaster.Openstack needed a cohesive vision if it was to stand a chance against the integrated enterprise stacks or the custom in-house ones it sought to supplant.It never had it and at this point it never will.

I don't mean any ill-will to any of the Mirantis boys or the other countless hackers that worked on Openstack circa Cinder/Neutron introduction. I was there too, we tried to right the ship before it got too far off-course and we failed.Many smart people tried to make Openstack good but it was out of the hands of the hackers.

jondubois 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Distributed orchestration software is only just starting to become usable. See http://rancher.com/... I wouldn't call infrastructure software dead. It's the beginning.

I think the problem is that most existing tools/engines/components which make up software systems (e.g. databases, memory stores, frameworks, etc...) were designed to run on a single machine and so far, it's been the DevOps' responsibility to scale them manually. Even for those components which DO support clustering; their approach is often not compatible with most orchestration systems (they tend to micromanage the cluster - Instead of micromanaging the cluster and thereby fighting the orchestrator, the focus should be on writing simple hooks for the orchestrator to invoke).

Developers of tools/engines/components need to change their mindset and start building engines from the ground up to run on distributed orchestration software like Kubernetes, Swarm or Mesos and automatic scalability has to be BUILT INTO every component/service.

A major problem is that there seems to be a massive skill divide between DevOps/SysAdmins and Software Developers - Software devs think of systems like Kubernetes and Swarm as being the responsibility of DevOps people and don't spend enough time thinking about how it impacts them. This is the wrong attitude - The two skillsets need to converge in order to build effective solutions.

Orchestration management tools are the new operating systems - In the same way that one can build apps/systems which are compatible with Linux, Windows or OSX, we should build apps/systems which are compatible with Kubernetes, Swarm or Mesos.

There is more to these orchestration tools than just writing up config files - The code within the components themselves have to be designed to play nice with the automatic scheduling/orchestration requirements.

Ericson2314 7 hours ago 1 reply      
Heh, it's like http://dtrace.org/blogs/wesolows/2014/12/29/fin/ but from a different angle.

I personal, naive as it sounds, beleive nix* (as in e.g. NixOS) could be a silver bullet here, but the market is so used to IT being inherently shitty I don't believe it will happen.

greenspot 8 hours ago 2 replies      
'Infrastructure software' is a too general simplication. If you break down infrastructure software the OP would find many types of software in this field which aren't dead.
simbalion 11 hours ago 8 replies      
Maybe commercial software is dead.

We all want it, except for some youngins.. how long can the corporate marketplace defy the will of the people who fuel the market?

Free software is the future. The benefits to mankind are too great.

dkarapetyan 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Well everyone is making money except docker. Drives the point home I think. Docker's business is docker and you can't really make money with it whereas everyone else is building a business on top of docker to deliver outcomes to customers.
unethical_ban 2 hours ago 0 replies      
IaaS vendor says that companies don't want to host their own infrastructure, more at 11.

I tried to get a neutral take on this, but it reads far too much like a sales pitch, even for vendor blog levels.

dunkelheit 7 hours ago 0 replies      
He is basically saying "don't ever count on openstack becoming non-crappy, we have a vested interest in keeping it crappy so that to get anything done you will still need to pay mirantis to deploy 'hordes of talented infrastructure hackers". Well, thanks for honesty.
vog 7 hours ago 0 replies      
> But none of this matters, because today customers dont care about software. Customers care about outcomes.

Why "today"? Hasn't this always been the case? It sounds essentially like a rephrasing of Paul Graham's advice: "Make something people want."

yyyuuu 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Forgive my ignorance but what exactly is infrastructure software?
vitoc 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Well, service, yes. Additionally, freedom from service dependence too.
lifeisstillgood 3 hours ago 0 replies      
I presume because people still need to run "private cloud" - because of regulation, national borders or not quite trusting AWS with your heart mind and ballsack.
chris_wot 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Only slightly facetious, but if they are trying to decouple containers from one another then perhaps they should consider a basic Inversion of Control design principle.

Perhaps that's the job of the orchestrator already though.

mmaunder 10 hours ago 0 replies      
"Who's with me?" ~Jerry Maguire.
A Quirky Function johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com
45 points by mathgenius  7 hours ago   19 comments top 9
dahart 54 minutes ago 1 reply      

It might be a mistake to try to argue that defining 0^0=1 is the best answer or the most consistent answer. The problem is that there are conflicts. There is no such thing as more consistent, if any rule breaks, they all break. Some math rules lead you to 0^0=0, some to 0^0=1, and some to 0^0=undefined. So math doesn't have an answer for this, and what really happens is we decide that 0^0=1 by convention. There are other examples of this happening in math, and it works reasonably well. But let's not pretend it's "right", let's accept that it's a choice.

We're choosing to say that the rule x^0=1 takes precedence over the rule 0 * x = 0.

Just to play devil's advocate, I like the choice of 0 for intuition consistency, not math consistency. The positive side limit is 0, so if 0^x is defined at x=0, how about we try to make the function more continuous, instead of trying to make it discontinuous?

0^0 is also saying 'start with zero, then multiply it by itself ... Wait, on second thought, don't start'

There's nothing, because you don't multiply zero by anything. The best number we have to represent nothing is zero. Saying that not raising zero to a power is one feels like a random number.

But, I'm wrong. ;)

etatoby 35 minutes ago 0 replies      
I've always marveled at the exponential function.

Here's a 3D visualization of z=x^y that supports the 0^0 is undefined camp:


(Made with Grapher.app and Gimp)

You can clearly see that the surface is tangent to the z (vertical) axis, which suggests that any z>=0 satisfies z=0^0, hence 0^0 is undefined.

amelius 1 hour ago 0 replies      
> You cant use any special functions, including things like sign and step functions, which are by definition discontinuous.

So, let's go the other way around. Is it possible to define a step-function in terms of this result? Can we define functions such as sign(x) and abs(x) in terms of it?

tomp 1 hour ago 1 reply      
I studied math (BSc only, not PhD), and IMO that's not quite how math works.

You can define a^x or 0^x by its algebraic properties only for rational numbers (i.e. fractions). In algebra, it makes sense that 0^0 = 1, but that won't allow you to plot 0^x as a function.

To plot it as a function, you need to define it for all real numbers, which, AFAIK, you need to do analytically:

1. First, define e^x as the limit (1 + x/n)^n as n goes to infinity (n is a natural number, so this definition uses the standard algebraic exponentiation).

2. Then, you define ln(x) as the reverse of e^x (after proving that e^x is monotonous and continuous).

3. Then, define a^x as e^(x * ln a).

4. Then, 0^x is defined as a^x as a -> 0, which is 0 for x > 0. In the same way, you can see that x^0 is 1 for x > 0. Therefore, there is no "correct" (analytically) result for 0^0 (i.e. such that would make the function f(x, y) = x ^ y continuous at (x, y) = (0, 0)).

cousin_it 1 hour ago 1 reply      
I like how deeply Baez thinks about the problem, but back when I was trying to figure it out, my reasoning was much simpler. Basically I just decided that keeping the binomial theorem true without exceptions was very important, so 0 should be 1 by fiat. (If you set it to any other value x 1, then (0+1) 01 + 01, because the left side is 1 and the right side is x.)
d4nte 2 hours ago 2 replies      
After reading the problem but before reading the solution, I came up with 0^ln(x+1). Did I do my math correctly, and is this a legitimate alternative answer?
S4M 1 hour ago 0 replies      
I got another one (a bit more complicated): find a function f that verifies:

- f(x) = 0 for x <= 0

- f(x) = 1 for x >= 1

- f admits a derivative of any order

The last condition rules out functions like f(x) = 0 if x<=0,x if x in [0,1] and 1 if x >=0.

(Note: piecewise defined functions are still OK)

fisherjeff 2 hours ago 1 reply      
> And it equals its reciprocal, because 0^0 = 0^-0 = 1/0^0

Doesn't this already assume that 0^0 evaluates to 1 and not 0?

myle 2 hours ago 1 reply      
I think he is looking for Dirac Delta function.
Intro to kernel debugging microsoft.com
121 points by ingve  14 hours ago   11 comments top 5
xvilka 1 hour ago 0 replies      
I should also remind, that radare2[1], which is free and open source reverse engineering framework and can run also on Linux, *BSD and OS X, supports connection to WinDbg/KD[2]. So you can use your favourite operating system and debug Windows kernel in virtual machine or via debug cable.

It's also notable, that this year we're running Google Summer of Code[3] and hosting our own Radare Summer of Code[4]. And for the latter we're fundraising[5] the money to pay our accepted students.

[1] http://rada.re

[2] https://github.com/radare/radare2/blob/master/doc/windbg

[3] http://radare.today/posts/gsoc-midterm-2016/

[4] http://rada.re/rsoc

[5] https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/radare-summer-of-code-201...

jclulow 13 hours ago 4 replies      
While I have no particular desire to use Windows for anything, I think it's very interesting to see the engineering tools used to support it. Though it's a proprietary system, it is nonetheless a large and successful one. I'm particularly interested in any information about the parts of the stack which collect OS and application crash dumps from a large distributed install base for remote post mortem analysis; hopefully there will be some articles about that too!
hitr 13 hours ago 0 replies      
This is a good introduction .For more details on the internals I find these very good.


[2]http://advancedwindowsdebugging.com -is a very good book for user mode debugging

rusanu 8 hours ago 0 replies      
> In the Hyper-V settings for the VM, set COM 1 to use a Named Pipe

I used to have an RS-232 cable in my office, for Kernel debugging. Before VM prevalence the debugged and the debugee would be two physical machines, linked with a physical cable over their COM ports. Once the VPC/VirtualServer came out with COM redirect and the debugger support for it, I never looked back.

snarfy 5 hours ago 0 replies      
I miss Soft-ICE.
To mitigate poverty, Y Combinator set to launch minimum income plan arstechnica.com
51 points by Tomte  2 hours ago   61 comments top 17
gjkood 1 hour ago 3 replies      
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

Along with the daily fish, does it makes sense to provide some sort of vocational training that an otherwise healthy person can take advantage of?

If a person was not able to take advantage of early education for whatever reason, but is currently physically healthy, there is still opportunity to provide for himself and his family by learning some vocational skills.

Choosing Oakland in particular has interesting connotations, considering that it is a major industrial center where there may be lots of opportunity for skilled workers.

Maybe even a reversal of the automation movement in favor of using basic labor for many repetitive tasks in order to achieve this altruistic goal.

Of course, there are still a great many people who truly could take advantage of the basic income experiment because their other options are severely limited for whatever reason.

christinecha 3 minutes ago 0 replies      
I really want to know how the conversation went with the folks in the control group.

"Hey, we're doing a study where we give money to a bunch of people... Not you, though."


jasonwen 1 hour ago 2 replies      
One year is too limited in my opinion. If you want to see what people will do with basic income, you have to give them the feeling the money is near infinite. One year looks to me its not enough to drop everything, as you will know it will soon come to an end. The paychological barrier for me would be at least 5+ years.

Then again if I know it will come to an end in xx years, I will feel more inclined to work harder. It's like a deadline.

TheCowboy 1 hour ago 1 reply      
Would individuals be restricted from using any government social welfare programs during this period? Many advocates propose funding basic income by disbanding current safety nets.

If recipients are living in public housing, collecting food stamps, accepting federal student loans, or any other form of indirect government aid, then it skews the results.

larrywright 32 minutes ago 0 replies      
I'm not sure I get the logic of doing this in one of the most expensive areas to live in the US.
matt2000 48 minutes ago 5 replies      
I don't understand how the math on basic income is supposed to work. If we gave this amount of money to every person in the US it would cost $7.2 Trillion dollars, roughly double the entire US federal budget. How is this supposed to work? Do only certain people qualify for basic income?
ulrikmoe 53 minutes ago 1 reply      
Control group or not. If YC wanted a scientific experiment, then they should have conducted it in silence.
secfirstmd 50 minutes ago 1 reply      
I think this is to be welcomed but I would also be interested if YC published a study on the tax arrangements used by its companies. Inequality is heavily linked to reduced government big budgets caused the culture and abuse of offshore trusts, the double Irish etc etc. Minimum income is important for the future but governments have to be actually able to collect the revenue in the first place...
11thEarlOfMar 1 hour ago 1 reply      
One aspect that I've not heard discussed is the likelihood that a portion of those being granted a basic income will be exploited for their new-found cash. Has this been considered at YC and if so, what are their approaches to minimizing it?
CPLX 1 hour ago 3 replies      
> "Overall the idea is to take money we make from YC [and], rather than all of the partners cashing out... putting it into research," Krisiloff told Ars. "I think that theres a culture at YC that just making money isnt that interesting."

I do understand the intended meaning of that sentence, and clearly it's more than admirable that these people are putting their money where their mouth is, but I really wish SV people would stop talking this way as it's tone deaf and counterproductive.

Several billion for them and a million and a half for a few people in Oakland implies that they do still find money somewhat interesting.

traviswingo 1 hour ago 0 replies      
I'm very interested to see the overall outcome of this research. While the intentions are good, my initial expectations of this are not very high. I look forward to be proven wrong.
LargeCompanies 45 minutes ago 1 reply      
Can you live off of 2k in San Fran?
youngButEager 25 minutes ago 0 replies      
Can I make a suggestion?

I have several acquaintances who work in the trades (carpentry, house framing, fence building, concrete driveways/sidewalks/porches building, window/door installers, painters, etc.).

Buying and rehabbing real estate over the past several years, I've met a lot of these folks.

Most of their ability to earn a living wage has been decimated by unchecked immigration.

So I suggest we start there -- give all the tradespeople in our area, who were born here and have now seen their livelihoods decimated -- a living wage.

That way, we can tell them "yes we've fully endorsed unchecked migration, and your jobs are gone, but here -- have this living wage."

What a nice gesture on the part of we the elite!

awt 30 minutes ago 0 replies      
Why not just have a YC charity?
logicallee 1 hour ago 2 replies      
I liked it better when Y Combinator was giving this kind of money[1] out to founders who could use it to build a business. Old text: "In 2005, Y Combinator developed a new model of startup funding. Twice a year we invest a small amount of money (average $18k) in a large number of startups (currently 82)" I note that $2k/month for 12 months is $24k, so that's more than their old investment size.

Meanwhile, now, it's calling its investments of $120K a "small amount of money"[2], while calling this kind of money ($24K for a year) a basic "income" and not actually treating it as an investment. This bothers me.

[1] http://web.archive.org/web/20120614131411/http://ycombinator...

[2] http://www.ycombinator.com/

jgalt212 37 minutes ago 0 replies      
YC's attempt at delaying the coming proletariat uprising.
Apple EFI firmware passwords and the SCBO myth put.as
155 points by hkr_mag  14 hours ago   29 comments top 7
dogber1 11 hours ago 3 replies      
Apple is doing a much better job than all the rest of the PC vendors. Even those vendors that I haven't published keygens for [1] have just stupendously unsound bypass mechanisms for BIOS passwords.

[1] https://dogber1.blogspot.com/2009/05/table-of-reverse-engine...

userbinator 11 hours ago 3 replies      
These could be insiders working at Apple support centers or even Apple itself.

It makes me somewhat happy in a weird way to think that, even in notoriously locked-down and secretive companies like Apple, there are individuals who don't believe in and subvert the company's attempts to have sole control of its products. We have these individuals to thank for schematics, parts, and a lot of other material that feeds the third-party repair industry.

joelhaasnoot 5 hours ago 0 replies      
This article is the kind that makes me sit down with a cup of coffee and read it top to bottom, even though I don't understand all of the low-level assembler details (but it's understandable without that). Security is important for everyone, not just security researchers.
thought_alarm 9 hours ago 2 replies      
Can someone please cut me to the chase?
SCBO 9 hours ago 1 reply      
What the hell does SCBO even mean?
mschuster91 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Hmm... what about bugs in the USB / FireWire implementation of the EFI?

Or the good old FireWire DMA trick?

sigjuice 12 hours ago 2 replies      
TLDR? EFI password protection broken or not?
Build Your First Thing with WebAssembly cultureofdevelopment.com
17 points by NickLarsen  1 hour ago   2 comments top
wofo 54 minutes ago 1 reply      
Thanks for the writeup! I had a hard time figuring out how to compile C++ to WebAssembly a couple of weeks ago and finally gave up given the lack of maturity of the implementation. I am sure this will help more people get interested in WebAssembly!
How to Backdoor Diffie-Hellman iacr.org
188 points by baby  19 hours ago   26 comments top 5
gsmethells 18 hours ago 8 replies      
So ... explain like I'm five. :) How can Diffie-Hellman, which has been taught ad infinitum as a safe method for key exchange, be discussed like it has a loophole?
mankash666 8 hours ago 0 replies      
The title is suggestive of a vulnerability in the DH key exchange protocol, which is misleading. Plus the technique described can be used against many crypto primitives that depend on trustworthy random number generators. Please consider changing the title to something less click-baity
dboreham 18 hours ago 1 reply      
>"constructions not using nothing-up-my-sleeve numbers"

is that the same as "constructions using something-up-my-sleeve numbers?"

wslh 14 hours ago 1 reply      
It can be interesting for some people here the research review we recently published about ECDSA and ECIES for the secp256k1 elliptic curve (used in Bitcoin and Ethereum): http://blog.coinfabrik.com/ecdsa-security-in-bitcoin-and-eth... and http://blog.coinfabrik.com/some-comments-on-the-security-of-...
zappo2938 14 hours ago 0 replies      
Diffie-Hellman explained to me like I'm 5 using colors. Public Key Cryptography: Diffie-Hellman Key Exchange (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QnD2c4Xovk)
I'm Peter Roberts, immigration attorney who does work for YC and startups. AMA
322 points by proberts  21 hours ago   320 comments top 123
cynusx 2 minutes ago 0 replies      
How long does it take to receive an O-1 visa and dependent O-3 visas?
sjtgraham 21 hours ago 3 replies      
I'm a UK citizen that has been looking at EB-1A all week (because of Brexit), I'm now sure I do not want to continue living here if we in fact do withdraw from the EU. My questions:

- How many of the 10 criteria must you actually satisfy? Is it a binary decision, i.e. proving 3/10 is the same as is the same as satisfying all 10. Is a positive decision 100% guaranteed is at least 3 criteria are proved satisfactorily?

- What is the standard of proof?

- When would my obligation to complete a IRS tax return begin, i.e. is it when the consulate adds an MRIV I-551 to my passport, when I arrive in the US an immigrant and CBP endorses it, or another time. This might impact when I would apply.

- How long would the EB-1A process take, how long does it take for a permanent resident to sponsor a spouse, can these applications happen concurrently, and are both categories current?

- What are the indicative costs?

mehta 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter,

Thanks for taking the time out to answer questions!

I am from India and am in US on H1B with gc process underway in EB2 category. I (along with a fellow friend) have been thinking of doing something on our own but are always discouraged by the immigration process. If we were to start something on our own, what are our options? H1b where you have a majority stake seems to not be an option. Is there an alternate way to do this?

I don't seem to satisfy requirements for O1.

sesameoil 21 hours ago 2 replies      
Hi Peter,

I've received my green card through my sponsor company 2 months ago. (It's a highly reputable fortune 100 company and I am building their core web product)

And I have a project that's getting traction and really want to leave the company and commit full time to it.

But everything on the web says I need to wait at least 6 months before leaving the company after I receive green card, otherwise they can kick me out for fraud when I apply for citizenship later. But some people also say this is just a myth.

So the question: Is this true and I am stuck with this company for next 4 months even though I really want to go full time on my project? Any ways to get around this? Thanks!

p.s.I know this is not a type of question that you may be interested in answering since it's a minority case, but I would really appreciate at least a one line comment on what you think (or even saying it's not something you can answer). It looks like it's not just me, at least 6 people are interested so far, we will all be grateful to hear from you!

jameshush 21 hours ago 3 replies      
Hi Peter,

I'm a Canadian citizen with a four year computer science degree. I've gotten a TN work permit twice, with two different companies over the past three years.

If I started a company with an American citizen and they opened it up, could they then hire me as a Computer System Analyst? Is there a minimum salary they'd have to pay me (e.g. could I get a TN and still only get paid $10/hour)? Is this a common way for Canadian co-founders to enter the United States or is there a better route?

godbov 16 hours ago 4 replies      
I know that Australian citizens can use the E3 visa for working in the US. Do you know if Australian citizens can start companies in the US using the E3 visa? Is it something like, you work for the company you founded? What happens if the company fails, or runs out of money?

EDIT: Updated question.

auggierose 21 hours ago 4 replies      
So what does extraordinary ability mean? Are we talking PhD level ability here, or Turning award level ability, or somewhere in between?
ry_ry 20 hours ago 2 replies      
I'm an English programmer working in the UK for a site owned by, via another company, a very large privately owned US company. I have a child and a partner I am not married to. I have no criminal record.

I'm unsettled by the brexit, and am considering a US move - if my company's parent wants to take me on how difficult is the immigration process likely to be?

otto_ortega 18 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter,

I live in Central America, I have been working as a remote worker for US-based companies for around 5 years now, the past 1.5 years working for a company on Seattle, I haven't signed any formal work-contract but my current employer is willing to help me to obtain a VISA to inmigrate to the US (I only have a tourist VISA right now).

I'm also in the way to co-found a company with my employer as partner, I will get 16% of ownership over it.

What are my best options to move to the US?

May I still apply to an H1B visa despite not having a formal work-contral? (the payments records, Skype logs and emails are the only proof I have)

kevindeasis 19 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter,

Thank you very much for doing this! I have two questions about Canadian citizens looking for jobs in America. Possibly, looking to immigrate to Americain the future. Also, If possible getting double/triple citizenship.

Let's pretend you are a Canadian citizen, recently graduated from computing science, that is currently living in Alberta, Canada. What is the best way to get a job in America? Should I apply for a visa as well or should they offer a visa sponsorship?

Then, let's say I get hired. What's the best way to get an American citizenship with the goal of maintaining my Canadian citizenship? I was originally born in the Philippines; would it be wise to get three citizenships (America/Canada/Philippines)?

djebril 48 minutes ago 0 replies      
What best advice would you give to an early-stage French data visualization startup willing to candidate for W17?
nopinsight 18 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter, Thank you much for doing this. I am a startup founder who plans to obtain E-2 visa and uses it for residency during the first 2 years of business. I hope to transfer to EB-1 or EB-2 with National Interest Waiver (NIW) as soon as possible.

1) What are the possibilities and timeline for applying to EB-2 while holding E-2 with majority interest in the startup? (I have a Masters in CS from a major US research university. It seems to be a challenge to qualify for EB-1 within the next 2 years, but NIW looks quite possible to me.)

A major reason for the plan is that E-2 treaty with my country limits the period of travel out and back into the US to 6 months after the visa approval. After 6 months, it appears that I will need to renew the visa every time I wish to come back to the US, which would be a major time sink.

2) Would EB-2 give its holders complete freedom to travel back to the States without issues and to stay as long as they wish?

3) Are EB-2 holders required to maintain employment with the original employer?

If you have time: I would strongly consider to become a US citizen after receiving an EB-2. What is the typical timeline and conditions to transfer from EB-2 to US citizenship?

Greatly appreciate it.

raz32dust 19 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter,

I have heard different answers to this from different people. Can I earn income from apps on apple store/android etc. if I am on a work permit in the USA? Does it matter if the app was initially launched when I was in India (my home country) or after I moved here?


senpost 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Can a H1B visa holder start a company?What are the options for H1B visa holder to do side projects for money?

Thank you.

Trufa 20 hours ago 2 replies      
I never had a formal university education, what are my real chances of being accepted for a work visa.

I think that I'm pretty good but and have a pretty interesting CV probably not "extraordinary".

What are the chances of me working in the USA? Does it really nullify my chances?

I have been working since I was 17 in jobs related and then very specific to programming, I'm 28 now.

I also have a uruguayan and spanish/european nationality, which would be better for an application?

claudiordgz 20 hours ago 5 replies      
I'm a Mexican citizen living in the US working as a Computer Systems Analyst. Been here for 1 and a half year and my wife and daughter joined me a year ago. I just recently moved jobs and the UCSIS approved me a work permit and I-94 until 2019. I came here as a TN visa, and I am worried if asking for a green card would get me and my family in trouble.
dvcoolster 4 hours ago 0 replies      
I have a 10 year B1/B2 visa, and I want to start-up in US asap. What are my options? I don't mind not being in controlling stake, that's not an issue. Is there any mandate around, If a company raises X, or creates Y jobs, they can stay in US. Thanks for all the answers
pramttl 13 hours ago 0 replies      
Do you see new OPT STEM extension (24 months) and it's requirements be something that could be met by most F-1 student entrepreneurs on OPT?

Background:The new 24 month STEM OPT Extension [1] (effective from May 10, 2016) which requires employers to fill I-983 [2] (Lengthy Training Plan) has created additional barrier for foreign students intending to start/work with startup companies on STEM OPT Extension (which earlier was for 17 months with less regulations). Being an F-1 student myself I can say that, these regulations could certainly influence more potential F-1 entrepreneurs down the "job seeking" path as opposed to "job creation/entrepreneurship" path because it is much easier for bigger companies with resources to satisfy the USCIS training plan requirements/I-983 as opposed to newly born companies.

[1] https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/students-and-exc...

[2] https://www.ice.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Document/2...

rednotebook 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Hey Peter!

I'm moving with my company (large Washington-headquartered tech firm) from London to California. They're applying for an L1B specialized knowledge visa as a blanket application. What sorts of reasons are people rejected for L1s? I'm very nervous I'll be turned down as I've heard horror stories about USCIS. Does it being blanket improve my chances? What % of people are turned down? I married an American a few years ago and was intending to move to the US to be together but it didn't end up working out - I don't think the paperwork ever got sent in the end. Would something like this impact my chances? I'm probably worrying unnecessarily. I'm 26, worked at the company for just over a year and have worked for a couple of other large tech firms in London before that.


rileyt 21 hours ago 2 replies      
I have a TN and I would like to learn more about the legality of passive income forms like advertising, affiliates, etc. Where or who is the right place to get info on this? Thanks!
knxclkases 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter, Thank you for taking the time to do this AMA.

The company that I currently work for has offered to start processing my GC, but only under an EB3. I have a masters degree in computer science from an American University, (and I have about 4 years of work experience) so I am technically eligible for an EB2 (and since I am from India, EB2 vs EB3 makes a big difference).

My question is, if I go ahead with the processing, Once I have my I-140 and priority date, would it be possible for me to switch jobs keeping the same priority date? If I move to a company with the means (and willingness) to file for a GC under EB2, would they be able to keep the same priority date?

Just trying to understand if this is something worth fighting for? Or if I should just accept the EB3 filing, get my I-140 and eventually move to a company that will re-file it under EB2?

ionwake 18 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter,

If I am a UK contractor with my own Limited company, what visa - if any, do I need to be able to do a 6-month contract in the US?

Thank you.

turnip1979 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Thanks for taking the time. For Canadians or Europeans with PhDs and a sufficient track record to make EB1 feasible, is it better to work at a research institution while one gets a green card, or is it better to just plow ahead with a startup and then do the EB1? Can you discuss pros and cons? I've seen many colleagues delay their startup aspirations while they wait for immigration reasons .. I want to understand if this is being prudent or a folly. I've heard the green card that you get as a researcher is nominally approved for that job title. Are there issues people face when they eventually attempt to become naturalized?
bing_dai 21 hours ago 2 replies      
Hi Peter,

First of all, thank you very much for doing this.

My questions are about the USA Diversity Lottery (https://www.dvlottery.state.gov/), as I rarely see any discussions about it:

- Out of all the people you have seen who obtained a green card, roughly what is the percentage of them getting it through the lottery?

- Roughly how much time and money would the process cost? (I would assume it's similar to the ~2-4 years and ~$15K that a regular green card application cost?)

- Any other general comments you have about the lottery?

Thank you.

amingilani 21 hours ago 1 reply      
How much does the whole process cost? As an international founder, that's my only major concern.
ecesena 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Thanks for this AMA!

I wonder what is the best structure for a US based company to have employees living in an EU country, such as Germany or Italy?

I mean, I assume they don't necessarily need a visa, and they can come to the US for limited time periods under the ESTA.

What is the best way to give them a salary and/or other common benefits? (health insurance shouldn't be needed, but 401.k or equivalent in their country would probably be a good perk).

poorguyh1b 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter. I am on H-1B (currently going through PERM labor certification application). My wife is on TN-1. Could it be a problem at the border (exit then reenter US) because I have dual-intent and she does not?
FabianBeiner 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Hello Robert! Thanks for doing this (again). I got two questions, but any answer is appreciated!

1st: Id love to stay in the US as a digital nomad for some months. Id have to work on my own projects and maybe on some client ones while doing this (all of them outside the US). Which kind of VISA would I need?

2nd: Are there any chances to get a work permit if you dont own a University degree? (Eg. starting my own company in the US?)

Thank you!

tommyvoltz 16 hours ago 0 replies      
Is popular github repo enough for o1 visa? it is significant achievement in programmers community)
vthallam 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter! Thanks for the AMA!

Can you please describe briefly about the process to establish a company here while on H1-B. From incorporation to founder's visa status. Whether there has to be a American co-founder or if it helps to have one. If funding helps in getting a visa etc.

The description about the 2 visa's for GC is clear, i just wanted to know about initiating the process.

Thanks in Advance!

anarazel 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Is there any reasonable explanation for not being "allowed" to leave the US, after filing for adjustment of status? Without advance parole, that is. Especially when a different class of visa (say an O1, while applying for EB1A) would still allow reentry? That can be rather annoying both for professional and personal reasons.
ankitml 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi peter,

I have an H1b petition approved till Aug 2017 but my visa hasnt been stamped.. can i get my petition extended even without having been travelled to US even once?

Also, if i have a valid visa but the petition gets expired. am i still eligible to work on the visa or the petition needs to be extended? can another employer get the petition extended for me?

andor436 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter, thanks for doing this!

My company currently employs a brilliant, in my opinion, Argentine scientist. We'd love to bring him to the US periodically, but he can't get a visa as he owns no property in Argentina, isn't married, etc. Short of meeting in a more neutral country do we have any options?

pbowyer 9 hours ago 0 replies      
When you are self-employed and run a successful company, is there a way to immigrate on that basis? Or do you have to find another company to work for, who will sponsor your visa application.

UK citizen, looking for a way out after yesterday's EU vote.

chikathreesix 17 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter,Thank you so much for having this. This is really helpful.I have heard that if you could get into YC, O1 would be an option because being selected by YC means you have extraordinary ability. Is that true?
throw42 21 hours ago 1 reply      
I have a O-1, how hard is it to get a EB1A. In what percentage of cases will a O-1 person get a EB1A.
aliakhtar 20 hours ago 1 reply      
> the extraordinary ability and national interest waiver routes--are often very good options, and often overlooked because of a misunderstanding about the standards.

Can you please clarify that, especially about the extraordinary ability criteria / standards? Is there a yard stick that one can measure themselves against, to get a realistic assessment of what their chances are?

E.g may be an example persona of someone who qualifies? The examples that are given by the immigration website are olympic atheletes and such. That's probably someone who is way overqualified though. What's an example of a person who just barely qualifies, or who neither under nor over qualifies?

P.S can I hire you to be my attorney for my EB1?

danellis 14 hours ago 0 replies      
If I, in the US, found a US-based company with someone from overseas, what should we do to maximize his chances of eventually moving to the US on an L visa?
perardi 18 hours ago 1 reply      
I work, remotely, for a private US software firm, and about a year from now, I'd like to move to Toronto to live with my partner. (Yay for long-distance relationships.)

Is it practical to work remotely for a US firm in Canada?

confiscate 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Hey Peter,

My question is typical in the SF Bay Area, H1B founder:

I am an American Citizen. Opened up a startup C-corp. Company does not have a lot of press coverage yet. I have a friend who would like to join my startup as founder, but have doubts about immigration issues:

- H1B

- EB2

- originally from India

- graduated masters from a U.S. College

- currently software engineer for another big company. Has been for several years

- just starting the green card process

As a startup we don't have much revenue yet. He is willing to give up his salary (just as I did) to become a founder. I am worried about H1B's salary requirement preventing him from doing this.

What options do I have for bringing him on board to my startup as a founder? What would be the best way to do this?

alantrrs 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi, Peter! as a Mexican, could I get an E2 visa investing $50k of my own money into my startup? Or what's the lowest investment needed for an E2 visa? In order to reach that threshold, could my investment be complemented with VC or angel's money?


einstein 20 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter, I've a few questions:

1. What's the relationship between O1 sponsoring entity and you? Do you've to be employed by the sponsoring entity? Can you run your own business while on O1? Can you get paid by someone else than the sponsoring entity while on O1?

2. How to determine if I should go with O1 or EB2? My attorney says if my EB2 gets rejected then there can be issues getting any other non-immigration visa.

3. If I already have O1, then what's the process like going from O1 to Green Card? When can you go from O1 to Green Card?

4. If I already have O1, are there tricks to stay in the US and never go back to home country to renew it?


marsha_ 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter, first of all thanks a ton for doing this.

My first question is how much time it takes to get green card through employment for someone who's not from India or China.

My second question is, does it make any difference to complete my MS before starting the process, or it doesn't change the approval chance and/or delay at all? (MS is from a middle eastern uni, not US)

--Here is a bit background about me: applied H1-B 3 times, didn't get selected. Now the company that applied for H-1B for me is preparing to apply for GC for me next month.I have a BS in CS and 3 years of experience, and almost done with a MS degree outside the US, just need to complete my thesis.

Thanks a lot again!

throwawaydui 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter,

Thanks for doing this! I am currently looking at a unique situation, so I'm not sure if you would know about this. All I'm asking is if you would know anything from your experience.

I'm an h1b visa holder from India and I recently got arrested and charged with a DUI. After talking to my lawyer, he looked at the evidence (videos, breathalyzer tests) and says its basically a 50% chance at a trial. So I'm looking at a plea bargain. How would this affect my immigration prospects? The DUI itself was my first one and it was a simple DUI, i.e. noone else was harmed or injured.


gibsjose 21 hours ago 2 replies      
Hey Peter, thanks for this.

Have you heard about SimpleCitizen? (https://simplecitizen.com/)

My wife and I were recently married and are currently considering this for getting her green card.

Any thoughts?

zanethomas 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Also, from my friend again:

I know O1 visa is very specific for example O1 for producing or or O1 for acting. If your O1 is for producing you cannot do acting under that visa. Currently I have only enough experience only for producing. But Ideally I want to get O1 for producing and acting. My question is if you have O1 for producing, while you are at O1 you want to apply O1 for producing and acting, if I get denied is my O 1 for producing still good or it get waive? Or can I just petition to add acting in my current O1? If I petition to add acting and get denied does my O1 as a whole gets cancelled?

linuxfan 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter,

I have a green card that will expire in August 2016. I also have a valid travel permit until 2018. If I do not renew my green card in August, and leave the country, will I still be able to return using the travel permit?

napoleonarwhal 16 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter,

I am from the United States and recently discovered that my cofounder is an undocumented immigrant. What should I do? Are there legal consequences to this?

no1youknowz 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter,

I'm based in the UK and in talks with (UK Based) investors for a significant amount of seed money to start a company.

I want to setup a US based company as all of the business will be with the US and I want a local office.

What sort of "investment" for the US based company do I need to make, so that I can secure a visa and what type of E visa should I be trying to get.

I know higher the better is probably preferable. But where is the sweet spot? $100k, $250k, $500k?

I do not have a PHd, nor a Masters or even Degree. However I have 25 years of IT experience and I am the technical / founder of my company.


noahlt 19 hours ago 0 replies      
A friend of mine feels that the H1-B system is rigged, that the big companies will get as many H1-Bs as they ask for and that smaller companies essentially don't have the same degree of access to that labor pool. My impression is that he is wrong, but I'm no expert. As someone who deals with this regularly, what's your takedo you think big companies are practically guaranteed to get H1-B workers? How disadvantaged are smaller companies (esp those without access to YC resources)?
vorador 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Is it possible for a person under an H-1B visa to have a money-generating side-project? I've read that it was absolutely illegal but I'd like to have an actual lawyer's opinion.


dbancajas 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Peter, Can you evaluate my specific case? I am going to send my resume and also my google scholar citation page.


- I have about 46 citations.

- Graduated last June 2015 PhD EE from a small US school.

- 5+ conference papers in top conferences in my field.

- 1 best paper award in a 250-paper conference.

- 1 best paper nomination in 200+-paper conference.

- 11+ conference/journal papers in Total.

- 3 approved US patents

Go or No-go on EB1-A?

I emailed this law firm for EB1: http://www.curranberger.com/ and they said I won't qualify.

What's your opinion?

freak4pc 19 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter ! Thanks for doing this, I do have a couple of short questions.

I'm an employee of a large US Corporate and got a O1 Visa which I'm currently employed under. I understand that my spouse will be able to move here as a O-dependant, but won't be able to work which is a huge issue for us and will probably prevent us from moving out to the US unless we find a permanent solution.

I do wonder, what are my options of getting her a work permit besides her finding a job that would endorse her and going through the entire process?

From what I've read seems like the two options I have are:

- H1B so she could get a H4. I understand that last year Obama approved some H4 recipients can work, but I'm not sure what the criteria is. I know that it's only able to be filed by 1st of April, but I also understand that there is a premium fee that could be paid to rush things up. Would love your input on this from your experience.

- L1 so she could get a L2. Best solution it seems but getting a L1 is a lengthy process and needs a 1-year employment period which I might not have by the time we want to move.

Thanks for reading this, I would really appreciate your professional opinion on this !


mahoneyturnbull 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Hello Peter,Thank you so much for offering this opportunity - this is really fantastic reading everyones Q+A's!

1.Re H3 'traineeship' visa. Is that a recommended route, in lieu of the o1a for business? Would an accelerator be able to satisfy this from your experience (i.e. 500 Startups) ?

2. Re H1B: Is it true that a more strategic month to submit it is around October? I am hearing conflicting opinions on the matter of timing.

web007 21 hours ago 0 replies      
I have several sponsored (H1B?) friends / co-workers who I would want as employees in my future startup. How expensive / difficult is it to take on sponsorship?
jensvdh 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter,

What are the odds of the H1-B lottery system changing under a Clinton/Trump presidency. What kind of changes can we expect from either of them?

tostitos1979 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi .. I am curious about how the final-part of the green card process works for a married couple living in different countries: say a dependent spouse is outside the country while the sponsoring spouse (say someone who applied via EB-1 or Eb-2) is inside the US. Is it possible for one (the dependent) to use consular processing and the other to do a change of status while inside the country? Thanks so much!
hauget 9 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi there. Thanks for doing this Q&A! Is it possible you could recommend a good immigration lawyer in Germany? Cheers.
throw345hn 20 hours ago 0 replies      
1. I studied in a HCI (Human computer interaction) program where there were a mix of programmers and designers. I found that after graduation a lot of the designers were applying for O1B and were easily getting those whereas programmers generally stuck to H1B's even though some of the projects that were being shown as part of the application documentation were group projects. Is it harder to receive an O1A for people in sciences because their work is generally not visual in nature vs O1B which is for arts (or designers)?

2. My OPT ends this month (June 30th) and my employer filed for H1B starting Oct 1st. My university issued another I20 (called CAP GAP extension) which start July 1st. But currently I am thinking about changing jobs immediately as my current employer is suffering financially and I am not sure how long they may survive. Is it ok to do that during the CAP GAP period if my new employer is willing to sponsor H1B? I have read online where some people say its ok but others say its not.

Thanks for the AMA

oneloop 18 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter, thanks for your time.

I'm European and I live in London and run a small advertising business (business is just me). I have a PhD in STEM. I can code.

Given this, what would you advise is the best route if I want to work and live in the USA? Would getting a job at an American company be enough?

Thank you

kalemayank 21 hours ago 1 reply      
I'm going to graduate with a B.S next year and already have a startup. We're raising a significant round late this year and i have a cofounder who is US citizen. Is it possible for me to have a majority stake in this company, work on it under OPT and file for an H1B or does someone need to have the ability to fire me?
dkraft 20 hours ago 1 reply      
If I am a Colombian Citizen with a multivisit visa, and I don't have the actual visa because it is attached to an expired visa which is forgotten in the U.S. - What are the chances of re-entering USA? Is the visa information in the computer or is it useless without the physical stamp?
threwawayx 8 hours ago 0 replies      
I am a high school dropout in India. How can I make it to the US with an H1B work visa (or some other country in EU) ?

I've had (technical) job offers from US, Germany, Denmark, Japan, etc. but all of them have had issues with this.

bmaddigan 1 hour ago 1 reply      
How do I contact directly?

please advise...

bmaddigan@yahoo .com

DelaneyM 20 hours ago 0 replies      
What guidance would you give to a Canadian applying to YC who doesn't plan to stay in SF after demo day? Is it possible to work in SF for the duration of the program employed by the startup, or is it best framed as a holiday? Can one pay oneself, or pay for expenses, in that time?
duglauk 21 hours ago 1 reply      
I am on h1b and have a blog with pretty good traffic. Can I have a google adsense account and earn ad $$ ?
jerrickhoang 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter,

Thanks for taking questions. I'm currently on F1 OPT and just lost the H1B lottery. Was wondering if it's legal for me to apply directly for a GC instead. If yes, are there potential risks during the process and in the future. Thanks

ryanlm 20 hours ago 0 replies      
When is the best time to incorporate and do a binding equity split for a new venture? I have a co founder and we've begun to talk about a 50 50 equity split as an S corporation. Before work is done, is it best to have a real entity formed?
h1bquestion 17 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi, My questions is regarding a different aspect of immigration -- what are my rights if my company promised to sponsor an h1b visa but failed to do so (a mistake on their end). The company offered a compensation package for their error, but I'm not sure what's fair in that case. Should it be calculated on the months I've been there, or the value that could've potentially came if I got the h1b. (Ps the company's success rate with h1bs has been 100% so far)
matheweis 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Is it even possible for someone to immigrate like the Ellis island days? It sounds like it is a complete stonewall if you don't have some exceptional skill and a lot of money ... how could a "normal" person immigrate now?
relaunched 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter,

I want someone to join as a co-founder, to currently work nights and weekends. However, currently, he's under H1B, working for a US company, in the US. What, if any, are the risks to both the startup venture and the individual?

LukaAl 20 hours ago 1 reply      
How does O1 and EB1 visa relate? Being on an O1 Visa make the EB1 visa process any easier? E.g: the qualification for the outstanding need to be reassessed (basically redo everything) or they just accept their previous decision?


Aldo_MX 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter,

What options does a person without a bachelor's degree (or similar) have to immigrate?

Naritai 19 hours ago 0 replies      
I'm hiring a Canadian SW developer (w/ a Canadian CS degree) on a 6-month contract (currently has no right to work in US). Can she generally qualify for a TN visa for contract work?
throwasay30967 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Thanks for this AMA!

Who is behind the "Washington Alliance of Technology Workers" and why do they keep bringing lawsuits against STEM OPT for F-1 visas?

Is there any moves on increasing the H1-B quota or modifying the H1-B altogether?

stephentbiz 15 hours ago 0 replies      
What expectations can a startup founder have when preparing to make an offer to an international developer?

What steps do we need to take to get them here :)

niwquestion 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter,

I am an international founder just starting on OPT after getting a PhD and hoping to get an EB-2 NIW. I have a couple questions:

1. Does starting a (small-at-the-beginning) bona fide technology startup is grounds for NIW? How difficult is the process in general (for a PhD in CS from a US school) and how many paper/citations on average do you see in successful cases?

2. If I succeed in my NIW case, can I later employ my brother (from the same nationality under E-2) and bring him on board as a cofounder later? Does it require substantial cash on his behalf?


haseeb1431 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Hey, I have done BS CS and six years of industry experience outside of US. Can you refer some existing documents/link that can help me understanding and starting this whole process. Thanks for your time.
ashkan3 17 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter, I'm a software engineer and working under F1-OPT status. I didn't get H1-B in the lottery this year. But I can maintain work authorization by extending my OPT for 2 years from now(STEM). My company told me they would apply for my green card after a year from my employment. Do I need to have a H1-B so that they can start the process for my gc? Or can they start the process while i'm on OPT?


abeiz 16 hours ago 0 replies      

If a Canadian is currently in the U.S on a TN visa, is it possible to get a green card? Or does one have to switch to a different visa first, as in a H1B?

kumarski 16 hours ago 0 replies      
Do any of the following qualify as extraordinary abilities?

* Winning Academic Competitions* Breaking World Records* Building Very Large Digital Things

clamprecht 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Here's Peter's previous AMA, for reference:


goCanada2 21 hours ago 2 replies      
As a Canadian citizen, working as a software developer for the past decade. I did not finish my degree in CS. Am I eligible to work in USA? What Visa would I need?
master_yoda_1 13 hours ago 0 replies      
I am on H1b how much time i have for job search if I quit my current job right now?
canIleaveyet 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter,

Thanks again for taking the time to answer questions. I am currently on OPT and was lucky enough to receive a H1B in this year's lottery a month or so ago. It is scheduled as a change of status happening on Oct 1st. Can I leave my current company if I have another offer and transfer the H1B to that company before Oct 1st? I have heard conflicting stories. Thanks!

jlos 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter,

As a Canadian with a bachelor of arts degree (I.e. non-CS degree), what kind of industry experience (if any) would be necessary to qualify for a TN-1 or H-1B?


dhiren34 20 hours ago 0 replies      
I read recently that the Opt period is being extended. If I was on opt for undergrad, am I still eligible if I decide to go to grad school?
maratal 15 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter!

I've got a github repository with couple of thousands stars, can this help me to obtain O-1?

rinormand 17 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter, really appreciate your initiative. Is there any kind of conflict if I apply to O1 and L1 at same time, assuming I have all the requisites for both. In your opinion the option for Premium Processing Service decrease the chances to be approved? Best regards, RN
wlrm 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Can you please give piece of advice how to prepare response for RFE in case of L1 visa? Some tricks or typical mistakes.
vchauras1 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter,

I have two simple questions:

I am on H1-b and I have my I-140 approved (eb-2).

- I want to switch my job and before taking up a new job in USA I want a break. Is it possible to take break of 2,3 months w/o being un-employed? If not, is there a way to achieve this?

- Once I move to a new firm, what process I can follow so that my GC application continue in normal pace?

zanethomas 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Asking for a friend:

Hi Peter, I was wondering, if I have an O visa, and I applied for EB-1 but get rejected, do I lose my O visa?

ex3ndr 20 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter!

Can small startup after are one year of operations immigrate to US (via L1)? What is required from a company to do so?

galaxor 20 hours ago 0 replies      
Dear Mr. Robers,I am a Spanish National, I have a small US Cloud startup company, we pay around 12K a month in services in the US, have invested around 500K in about 5 Years in Hardware are other items. Whats the best way for me to go about a biz / investor or work visa ?
mceoin 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter,

The 0-1 visa has many advantages for entrepreneurs. How would you advise positioning oneself to obtain one?

ogandda 18 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter

What would you recommend for a student who is on an F1/OPT STEM extension who wishes to found a startup ?


rootein 14 hours ago 0 replies      
Can journalists/ editors qualify under the EB-1 visa?
togepiiod 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Any thoughts or experience with the EB5 route, and founding a startup on arrival? (assuming you have the required 500k or 1m, and you are investing in something unrelated to the startup).

Is it a good choice for canadians?

What is the best way to find a qualifying and legitimate investment?

coralreef 21 hours ago 0 replies      
What was the most difficult case you have ever faced in trying to acquire a visa for a founder?
vishnu291093 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Hey Robert, My question is what all are the different ways for a student under F-1 visa to be co-founder for a start up and will I be able to do it as an OPT and apply for a H-1B visa at the same time.Thank you
vishnu291093 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Hey Robert, My question is what all are the different ways for a student under F-1 visa to be co-founder for a start up and will I be able to do it as an OPT and apply for a H-1B visa at the same time.
shpx 21 hours ago 1 reply      
How much harder is getting an extraordinary ability visa without a degree?
JamesHo 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter,I am a L1B Visa holder, at present. My company is preparing to apply for my GreenCard. I being on L1B visa, would I be eligible to change my employer, once I get I-140 Status?
c0g 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Are there any firms your recomend for someone in the london area?
poorguyh1b 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter. I am on H-1B. What are the legal source of revenues other than the salary I receive from my employer (H-1B sponsor)? Is it ok to have capital gains, dividends, interests?
eigensheep 21 hours ago 1 reply      
I have been a green-card holder for 9 years and coming up on my expiration date in exactly 10 months. Will I face any trouble if I want to get the ball rolling on becoming a US Citizen?
rafikicoln 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter,

Thank you so much for taking the time. My question is: As a recent grad from an American U, can OPT and OPT STEM extension be used to start a new company?

brexit123 20 hours ago 1 reply      

What are the visa options for an Indian citizen ( no U.S Visa ) who has registered a Delaware LLC to get into U.S for few months and doing businesses .


codeproject 15 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peters:

I got my green cards 10 years ago. I have been working on my startup project for the past 3 years. I didn't make any money and didn't pay taxes. Now I want to apply for american citizenship. in the naturalization form, there is a section for past working places and tax paying history. What am I supposed to do with it?

ikestojanovik 20 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peter,

Last September (2015) I received my Green Card thought the PERM process. If I was to marry someone today, could they apply for Green Card?


brexit 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi! Thank you so much for doing this. My questions:

- Is it allowed for an F-1 visa student to start a company?

- If yes, can that company make money? Under what conditions?

Thank you!

LoSboccacc 20 hours ago 1 reply      
would a couple patents and a successful startup experience as CTO, (but not founder) qualify for an O1?
cm2187 19 hours ago 0 replies      
You should do the same UK focused. There will be like a million people who will apply for citizenship or need a visa this year!
santi87 19 hours ago 0 replies      
How likely am I to have my application denied after an RFE? General numbers
Disruptive_Dave 20 hours ago 1 reply      
yo, NOBODY gets more free work requests than lawyers.
duglauk 21 hours ago 1 reply      
on H1b visa can I accept prize money (say about $2k) if I win a online coding Hackathon ?
capote 18 hours ago 0 replies      
I'm a US citizen and want to move to Australia for good. How can I find someone like you in Australia to get advice from on how to proceed? (I'd just be looking for a normal software/managerial job kind of like the one I have now)
tn13 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi Peter,

What is the approximate time that it takes for an H4 spouse to get EAD after H1B's EB1 GC process is kicked off ?


max_ 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Thanx a lot!!:

How hard is it for Africans who have never stepped in the US to relocated to san Francisco as Founders/Engineers for startups?

jamisteven 21 hours ago 3 replies      
Hey Robert - My Question: What do you think would happen to tech in America if H1b's were done away with and all foreign workers had to leave?
george20 20 hours ago 1 reply      
I don't know anything about this topic, but I do know that this is probably not an appropriate response on HN.
saintwind 21 hours ago 0 replies      
A family member of mine works for DHS as a paralegal, more or less, and their department deals with illegal immigration into the US. They often tell tales of how illegal immigrants will commit heinous acts (rape, murder) or somewhat more pedestrian crimes (heroin possession, for instance).

Anyways, the most striking part about this is that it seems a lot of the judges who handle these cases simply don't care. Because these people are often deported and then come back a week later, not a lot seems to be done. Some of the criminals won't be charged, and it seems a lot of people on the in the system will just turn a blind eye. I'm not sure if it's apathy, or if the system is so inundated that they're just unable to keep up, but have you experienced anything like this?

codeproject 15 hours ago 0 replies      
Hi Peters:

Thank you for taking time doing this public service. I really appreciate.

I got my green cards 10 years ago. I have been working on my startup project for the past 3 years. I didn't make any money and didn't pay taxes. Now I want to be american citizen. in the naturalization form, there is a section for past working places and tax paying history. What am I supposed to do with it?

Oculus removed the headset check from the DRM in Oculus Runtime 1.5 github.com
259 points by T-A  22 hours ago   145 comments top 13
throwaway7767 22 hours ago 2 replies      
I had to google this to have any idea what it was about. The linked release notes don't explain any of the background, the entirety of the content relevant to the headline is this:"I've only just tested this and I'm still in disbelief, but it looks like Oculus removed the headset check from the DRM in Oculus Runtime 1.5. As such I've reverted the DRM patch and removed all binaries from previous releases that contained the patch."

Apparently Oculus was testing for a present oculus headset in its runtime, so it was difficult for a third-party devs to build shims to connect other VR hardware to it and enjoy VR games built for oculus.

Mods, I'd suggest changing the URL to something with a better explanation, like http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/06/oculus-reverses-course... which includes the above quote in addition to explaining the backstory.

e1ven 22 hours ago 0 replies      
There's a more in-depth article about this (rather than just the changelog) at http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/06/oculus-reverses-course...

The Article quotes Oculus - "We will not use hardware checks as part of DRM on PC in the future."

Wile_E_Quixote 20 hours ago 6 replies      
Content has almost always sold hardware in the video game industry. Look at all of the exclusive content for Nintendo consoles. Or how many people bought XBox's for the sole purpose of playing Halo.

Sure, most VR hardware options may technically be peripherals for PCs, but at a cost of several hundred dollars or more, it isn't in the same category as PC mouses or joysticks. The way I see it, VR hardware is essentially a standalone device that connects to PCs, simply so that many people won't need to buy that too, saving them $1k-2k.

Creating exclusive games and buying exclusive content licensing/distribution rights for any gaming platform, especially ones in stiff competition for early adopters and the lion's share of a new market, is a great business decision. If Oculus hadn't secured exclusive content, people would have simply bought whichever hardware worked better, or shipped first. In this case, most people would have likely bought the Vive. Oculus knew that superior content is the tie-breaker and can even overshadow slight technological shortcomings, if they exist.

Oculus should never have reversed their plans to keep the content exclusive. Now, many people will just buy Vives and use them to play Oculus-subsidized content. Oculus could have created a great monopoly. Now I suspect they will have serious difficulty building a sustainable business. Peter Thiel is on Facebook's board and Marc Andreessen is on both Facebook's and Oculus's board. I can't imagine either one would support reversing the decision to make exclusive content.

gthtjtkt 22 hours ago 9 replies      
They deserved the backlash for implementing it, and I hope the Rift continues to suffer now that people know Facebook's true intentions. Not to mention how poorly they treated early supporters after the buyout, e.g. stocking Rifts on retail shelves before they'd fulfilled orders for all backers, then telling backers who complained to get a refund and go buy one from a store...

They're only doing the "right" thing because they have no choice. They couldn't pump enough money into third party development to make up for the ill will they'd garnered with this exclusivity DRM, especially not with companies like Valve doing the complete opposite -- giving money to third party devs with no exclusivity deals whatsoever.

Turns out some developers can't be bought[1]. Who'da thunk it?

1. https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4nxpnq/fuck_facebook_...(For the sake of fairness, it was a time-limited exclusivity offer that was made to the Serious Sam devs, but an exclusivity offer nonetheless.)

kartickv 12 hours ago 1 reply      
I disliked the DRM as well, and applauded when they removed it, but on second thoughts, I don't find it unfair to expect something in return when Oculus is funding a game.

Developers are free to refuse Oculus's money and make a cross-platform game.

I don't see what was wrong here in the first place, when I step back and think about it calmly.

balls187 22 hours ago 0 replies      
In order to support the original intent of LibreVR (allowing any headset to run occulus content), the only way to bypass the hardware check was to remove the DRM checking completely.

This had an unintended consequence of potentially allowing abuse.

With Occulus removing that hardware check, LibreVR was able to revert it's "YANK ALL THE DRM" solution.

Vexs 22 hours ago 0 replies      
The checks made no sense in the first place, it's a loose-loose on all ends for occulus. A closed ecosystem basically does not work when it comes to PC gaming, and with hardware this expensive it's not like you could buy the valve-sponsored vive and the rift.
mashlol 22 hours ago 2 replies      
Does this mean any vr headset will work with games from the Oculus store?
sajan80 19 hours ago 1 reply      
This is actually big news.

My trust in the Oculus store however remains broken

mtgx 22 hours ago 1 reply      
Because there was backlash. But I doubt Facebook changed its original intentions of locking down the platform. What happens if Oculus Rift takes 80% of the market? Will it still allow the Vive or other headsets to play nice with Oculus-exclusive games?

This is Facebook we're talking about here. Why even take the chance?

ryanlm 21 hours ago 0 replies      
What does this mean?
azernik 19 hours ago 7 replies      
Different context, but Dan Savage articulates this well. Relevant (and censored, because he is who he is) paragraph from a long blog post [1] on Sanders vs. Clinton:

'It's ####ing moronicit's political malpracticeto attack a politician for coming around on your issues. There are lots of other issues the queer community is going to be pressing politicians on, from passing equal rights bills and trans rights bills to defeating anti-trans bathroom legislation and RFRAs. If pols who are currently on the wrong side of any of those issues see no benefit to changing their positionsif they see no political benefitthey're going to be harder to persuade. Why should they come around on our issues, why should they switch sides or change their votes, if we're going to go after them hammer and tongs for the positions they used to hold? ("Please change your mind and support us." "No." "Pretty please?" "OK, I've changed my mind and I'll vote to support you." "#### YOU FOR NOT ALWAYS AGREEING WITH ME! I'M NOT VOTING FOR YOU! #### YOU SOME MORE!")'

[1] http://www.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/2016/02/22/23606058/hi...

rosstex 22 hours ago 0 replies      
Finding an ATM Skimmer: It pays to be paranoid linkedin.com
194 points by prostoalex  18 hours ago   109 comments top 20
patcheudor 15 hours ago 6 replies      
Finds ATM skimmer in the wild, doesn't call the police.

As a security professional I cringe at this sort of thing every time it happens. Fundamentally this isn't something to go reverse engineer, to show off to the person next to you to show how smart you are, it's evidence of a crime and needs to be handled as such by contacting the authorities. Perhaps there are fingerprints on the inside. Maybe the police have stopped someone who was suspicious around that ATM previously and would now have evidence to bring them in for further questioning. Maybe they could pull video. By not calling the authorities all of those potential angles to find the perpetrator are lost. Further, in many jurisdictions, not immediately calling the police can get you in a lot of trouble:

1) What if the police were watching, waiting for the criminal to return to remove it? You're now their prime suspect and a video of your 'discovery' isn't going to help you as you sit in jail for a few days.

2) This is directly tampering with evidence of a crime. Removing it is fine, that's discovery, but keeping it without contacting the authorities? That could be criminal.

jonah 14 hours ago 1 reply      
I actually found a similar one today at my bank![1] Thanks to reporting by Brian Krebs and others, I'm pretty tuned in to anything suspicious. This was on the ATM I use most frequently so I immediately noticed the translucent green card receptacle was shinier than usual. Sure enough, it was a flexible plastic cap over the real slot. The PIN camera was the typical fake bezel with pinhole.

I notified the branch manager and he immediately deactivated the machine and called their security team and the police. I didn't hang around to see their response, but happily they were very thankful and took it seriously.

[1] http://imgur.com/a/KGoBM

BrandiATMuhkuh 16 minutes ago 0 replies      
I life just 10min away from this station. I'll have now a special look for skimmers.
white-flame 17 hours ago 7 replies      
While I've seen skimmers that cover the entire front of the ATM, it boggles my mind that the credit card acceptor isn't designed to be flush with the front face. That would make it much harder to plant an additional device on top without it looking more conspicuous.
lotharbot 15 hours ago 1 reply      
A friend of mine points out:

there's a blue sticker on the front of the ATM, above the PIN pad. On the woman's ATM the sticker goes up to the edge of the screen; on his ATM there's a small white/gray strip covering it. He hypothesized that's a pinhole camera to capture PINs.

Paranoid, but maybe not paranoid enough?

iLoch 15 hours ago 0 replies      
Launches into nerd talk and drops company name to indifferent stranger.
hackeraccount 15 hours ago 2 replies      
I thought they used Chip & Pin in Europe? Wouldn't that make skimmers a much less useful proposition? Also the women next to him was hilarious. Clearly thinking "Who is this nutbag and why is he grabbing at me?"
biafra 14 hours ago 2 replies      
ATMs in Europe probably should not be able to read the mag stripe except when the chip does not work. Why do I have to insert the card fully, so that a skimmer can read the mag stripe? Why not have a way to only insert the chip and only if it can't be read make it possible to insert the whole card?

I only need the mag stripe in the US. Every terminal or ATM in Germany I ever encountered the last few years would read the chip. Only ATMs (most likely being undetected attacked by skimmer) swallow the whole card.

I don't get this industry.

On a related note: Is there something I can cover the mag stripe with that makes it unreadable, but can be removed easily if I need it?

mattmiller 18 hours ago 1 reply      
Do the skimmers save card info to be retrieved later or can they call home somehow?
giorgosts 34 minutes ago 0 replies      
Fake (i.e. promotional) video
placeybordeaux 17 hours ago 0 replies      
Just go ahead and reach out for her debit card.
55555 1 hour ago 0 replies      
he didn't find the pin camera though ;) This is a two part skimmer, no? There should be a camera somewhere collecting PINs.
heywire 14 hours ago 0 replies      
I'm surprised it was effective. Supposedly NCR ATMs have an anti-skimmer feature:


codezero 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Sorry for being obtuse... when he says he checked it with his hand is that just jostling it? Is there a good technique for checking for a skimmer?
bcjordan 16 hours ago 2 replies      
What's the safest approach if you come across one of these in the wild? If you had already put your card in, you wouldn't want to just leave the device around waiting for the thief to pick it up. But you probably also don't want to be the person pocketing the memory chip with other people's debit card info.

I suppose taking a cell phone video describing your thought process and recording your interactions with the device is a good precaution to take whatever you end up doing with it.

misiti3780 16 hours ago 0 replies      
Does anyone know how common this is in the US ?
jsudhams 16 hours ago 2 replies      
Time has come to avoid card all together in ATM why not use OTP to take money out , when you put some number and code
matt_wulfeck 15 hours ago 2 replies      
This is why we need to move to Apple/android Pay type systems. The security is in the protocol. Somebody can "skim" the packets all day long and it doesn't matter.
FuturePromise 12 hours ago 0 replies      
I don't understand why he accosted that woman at the ATM next to him.

1. I would be very suspicious of anyone approaching me at at ATM, especially at a major tourist area. There's no reason to bother someone

2. There's a chance she's in on it! She may have come up there because she saw someone fiddling with the skimmer.

He should have either called the Bank or the Police. Don't bother strangers.

mynewtb 16 hours ago 2 replies      
This is a marketing stunt.
Facebook Bug Delete Any Video pranavhivarekar.in
192 points by adamnemecek  21 hours ago   41 comments top 12
justifier 19 hours ago 2 replies      

 June 10, 2016 at 3:53pm - Report Sent ... June 10, 2016 at 10:11pm - Bug Confirmed by Facebook ... June 11, 2016 at 9:05am - Bug fixed and response by Facebook ... June 15, 2016 at 1:20am - Messages exchanged June 20, 2016 at 9:03pm - Asked about bounty decision June 23, 2016 at 1:13am - 5 digits bounty awarded
5 days later and the author had to follow up on the bounty decision before it was awarded?

perhaps this is standard but i appreciate the author putting the timeline in there, this is the kind of information that is important to bounty hunters but is hardly ever talked about.. we are usually more interested in the hack than the monotany

baby 20 hours ago 2 replies      
tl;dr: API flawz. When you created a comment with a video, you could link somebody's else video instead of yours. Then if you deleted your comment, it would delete their videos.

On an unrelated note, his page linked to this youtube channel that looks pretty awesome! Books animated: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXLesGEfmyhxqOjoAqhRwhA

gonyea 20 hours ago 2 replies      
This reminds me of my main concern with GraphQL, namely that I could never find a good example showing how you weave security within a request. The examples I saw made me feel uncomfortable. Like, the client requests progressed further than I felt they should.

My typical approach to securing REST APIs is to use guard clauses + white lists. This is very explicit and easy to comprehend.

ohitsdom 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Nice work and great find. Really surprising this design flaw existed, I don't think I would have even bothered trying it. But Facebook ships a lot of code and features, so it just takes perseverance to find these types of issues.
iamgopal 4 hours ago 0 replies      
haha...at this scale, SQL or Database needs garbage collector instead of delete function.
guessmyname 19 hours ago 3 replies      
Out of curiosity, why is that many of the vulnerabilities that

appear in the news, walls of fame, and websites like HackerOne

are discovered by Indians? Is this just a coincidence? Or is

there a better explanation for this?

josephko 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Nice work mate!

This is a classic example for when a developer of an API think that the only use cases are the ones imposed by the UI that the API powers. Thinking defensively would have prevented that bug from occurring in the first place, thats why I love defensive style when developing. Never trust the client or think that the client is really, the client"

BHSPitMonkey 14 hours ago 1 reply      
Too bad it was fixed. Seems like the only recourse content creators had against freebooters until now.
palakchokshi 21 hours ago 2 replies      
I can't reach the site. Anyone have a link I can use?
cookiecaper 20 hours ago 2 replies      
Small oversights get made in organizations of all sizes and often have large ramifications, as in this case. Good processes help minimize the exposure but the real world is too messy for them to act as guarantees.

A security-conscious client recently noticed that due to an artifact of MySQL's (terrible) built-in replication, they'd been running production databases with passwordless accounts allowed to connect from any host. If someone on the internet found the hostname and guessed the right username, they'd have full access. This client has stringent controls in place to prevent just such eventualities, but this one slipped through. You can't be perfect.

Computers are hard. The implications are frightening in this day and age, when so much of our business is conducted online, including highly-sensitive governmental business. The recent cyberattacks on servers hosting data regarding high-profile political figures will probably drive a program of mandatory licensure to work in IT as well as an even harsher version of the CFAA, both of which are very bad.

imadeajoke 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Youtube has a similar bug, it's called DCMA.
roachycok 19 hours ago 2 replies      
Good Job! But i feel like finding such bugs is hardly noteworthy..
Is your personality fixed, or can you change who you are? npr.org
166 points by BDGC  17 hours ago   85 comments top 21
Pharylon 15 hours ago 8 replies      
For most of my life, I was the classic "shy until you get to know him" kind of guy. I thought that's just how I was. But then ten years ago, I started LARPing, and I decided to play an extrovert - someone who could walk up to a stranger and strike up a conversation.

So I did. And even though I was nervous as hell, I did it during the game, in the guise of my character. For a couple years, I was really into the game. It was my life every weekend. I probably spent more social time pretending to be someone else than I did being myself.

And a funny thing happened... I became that guy for real. It's not just that I'm no longer nervous, I genuinely enjoy talking to new people. I barely recognize my old introverted self.

So I believe this. Who we are is just a snapshot in time.

Animats 8 hours ago 1 reply      
Some military training is designed to change personalities. The USMC does this deliberately.[1] They use sleep and food deprivation. This is not done to "toughen up" recruits; it's done to change their value system. Gen. Krulak, when Commandant, devised this in the 1990s.[2]

Krulak himself says it best:

"We cannot anticipate and train Marines for each situation they may face. All Marines must, therefore, possess a moral consistency to serve as their compass. Making the right ethical decisions must be a thing of habit. This is why we created the Transformation process where we recruit bold, capable, and intelligent young men and women of character and recast them in the white hot crucible of recruit training. We immerse them in the highest ideals of American society -- the time honored values of our Corps -- honor, courage, and commitment. We place these values on them in a framework of high institutional standards to which they are held strictly accountable. We further foster the acceptance of these values through the unit cohesion and sustainment phases."

"Just as we expect a Marine to employ his weapon under combat duress, we must likewise demand that he employ his mind. Marines need to be comfortable with using their intuition under highly stressful circumstances. In short, we must make intuitive decisionmaking an instinct, and this can only be accomplished through repetition. Training programs and curricula should routinely make our Marines decide a course of action under cold, wet, noisy conditions while they are tired and hungry and as an instructor continually asks them "what are you going to do now, Marine?!!"

[1] http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?46546-%91Tu... [2] http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usmc/cultivating_intuiti...

aab0 14 hours ago 1 reply      
Kind of weaksauce. One review 50 years ago doesn't override all the work done since, particularly on OCEAN, showing high longitudinal stability of personality traits when measurement error is considered. (What's more interesting is the behavioral genetics of that; it seems that this stability is at least in part due to the stability of genetic influences on personality.) It's also kind of silly to point to prisoners as an example: violent crime always declines with age.
mendelsd 2 hours ago 1 reply      
Personality is influenced by hormone levels, and hormone levels are an aspect of health. Here's a specific example [1] which may be of particular interest to those of a nervous disposition.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3520819/

hcarvalhoalves 13 hours ago 0 replies      
I wonder where this comes from? A lot of our culture is based on stories about people changing personality. [1]

Those stories have so much appeal and longevity exactly because the spectator can see someone like himself changing. The underlying motif is that anyone can go from weakling to hero, under the right circumstances.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

sixo 15 hours ago 3 replies      
Supposedly people who speak multiple languages can have dramatically different personalities in each.
11thEarlOfMar 17 hours ago 8 replies      
Does it go the other way? Are there people who spend their life as good (a more or less model citizen) becoming bad? Perhaps not, because it seems more natural for humans to want to contribute, so even criminals may have a voice in them urging them to do better. But humans do have thoughts of envy, lust, self-righteousness and unfairness that can whittle away the self control and cause them to cross over and, let's say, murder someone in the first degree.

I'd propose that a complete set of research would learn that there are some personality traits that are malleable and there are some that are not. Moreover, those two sets would not be the same for everyone, and there is likely a great deal of diversity.

unabst 7 hours ago 0 replies      
For the most part we are all unabstractable, and if anything, we should strive to be.

What I means is, we can give ourselves names, but who we are is mostly a black box. Any black swan event can change our definition, and the shock doctrine also applies here, in that we are affected by spikes of greatest impressions, not ongoing consistency.

For the most part, we are remembered for our best or worst, but are judged by our last. So in the case of this article, if you commit a horrific crime, that will be what people remember and define you by. And we can do everything in our power to be judged with forgiveness based on our latest actions. But for the most part, it's not until we do something more extreme (shocking) than what has defined us so far that most of us will feel naturally inclined to update our definitions.

But the key takeaway is that even if this is how we define one another, none of it truly predicts what anyone will do next, good or evil, brilliant or lame. Ultimately, we are all much like computer programs that must run their course to know precisely if any of us will halt or not, which leaves personality a mere impossible analysis, much in the spirit of Gdel's incompleteness theorem. We are incomputable, and our inconsistency is what is consistent. The only option is execution -- to let life run its course.

yngccc 16 hours ago 1 reply      
Personality is deeply ingrained and hard to change but not impossible. Off the top of my head things that can change personality include going to jail, military service and long term unemployment.
chongli 16 hours ago 2 replies      
How do you define "personality"? Does the fact that you're capable of changing not get included in that? Is the "new" personality the true you? Or the old one?
rajanchandi 4 hours ago 1 reply      
Looks like people here haven't examined MBTI. Your personality may not be fixed but it takes up to 2 years to change it. 16personalities.com is a good way to test your personality as being one of the 16 types. It takes 10 mins.
peterkshultz 9 hours ago 0 replies      
Carol Dweck's work on the growth mindset says that you can change who you are.

Her ideas have had a tremendous impact on various aspects of business, to the point where she's covered in the Harvard Business Review:


afarrell 12 hours ago 0 replies      
The question isn't "can you change who you are?", it is "How young do you have to be who you are?"

I haven't thrown a temper tantrum in the middle of a grocery store in 22 years.

dilemma 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Fixed at what point in life? Age 12, 18, 21, 30, 50?
rdl 13 hours ago 0 replies      
I used to be really bad about time/punctuality. Since doing a startup where the tides were relevant, and missing a rendezvous by 10 minutes could mean a 12h wait (not just for me, but for a lot of other people), I made a serious effort to be punctual -- the big change being focusing in advance on "we must leave no later than X to be there on time" vs. "we need to be there at X+Y" is 90% of it.
gbuk2013 5 hours ago 0 replies      
"Who am I?" - Zen koan.
ldehaan 14 hours ago 0 replies      
change is inevitable.I like to think of the different stages in my life as other people, because those people were so different.

I maintain the same kind of drive I've always had, consuming every piece of data I can get my hands on, but that consumption has changed me.

I remember clearly the first major change to another person I ever experienced. it was after reading the giver when I was a child. I can't even recall who I was before I read that book, but I know he was a lesser mortal than I.

the next major change was after my parents split and I got a new abusive step mother. before that I would cry at a whim, every time I watched fern gully I cried, but after that woman I rarely showed emotion. I was hard and thought hard thoughts, I was a total gangsta, a white suburban gangsta but after a long time trying I finally got street cred. spent time in the kiddie can and all that.

my next major change was actually in military school after gaining too much street cred. something changed in me on the long drive through the desert of Nevada to a large training camp called rite of passage. I kicked ass there, no idea why, but I changed, and became a leader. moved up the ranks and got posted to the cross country cycling team.

and that's where we come to the change that stuck for so many years. In ROP I became captain of my cycling team and we got the opportunity to ride across America. that ride changed me in so many ways. I used to think I couldn't attain my dreams, now I was in a dream.

the next time I changed fundamentally was when I became a father. not in your usual lets get married and have a family way, no, it was as unplanned and crazy as you can get, but I still changed, stepped up to the plate and reflected on my past lives and Knew I could do it.

now I'm an older man, and I am changing at a more observable pace, I can see my views solidifying and it's a little scary, I don't want to be stuck in my ways. but I am comforted by the fact that any day, I can change, at least for now.

known 5 hours ago 0 replies      
You are a product of your environment.http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/inmotiv.htm
gadders 6 hours ago 0 replies      
I have always liked this quote:

Up to a point a man's life is shaped by environment, heredity and movement and changes in the world about him; then there comes a time when it lies within his grasp to shape the clay of his life into the sort of thing he wishes to be. Only the weak blame parents, their race, their times, lack of good fortune, or the quirks of fate. Everyone has it within his power to say this I am today, that I shall be tomorrow. The wish, however, must be implemented by deeds. - Louis L'Amour

theparanoid 16 hours ago 1 reply      
TLDR; Prisoners become less violent over time.

This has less to do with personality and more with testosterone.

superobserver 13 hours ago 3 replies      
Short answer: no. Long answer: no.

The supposition that the personality is completely fixed or completely mutable is simply false. There are fundamental constraints to how the personality can be manifested. Histrionic personalities are perhaps those most inclined to believe that their personality is truly self-determined, but they'd also be mistaken.

NorwayEuropean Union relations wikipedia.org
33 points by em3rgent0rdr  3 hours ago   34 comments top 6
nraynaud 1 hour ago 3 replies      
Let's just say that Norway did not leave the EU slamming the door after decades of being the difficult child. I'm not sure this kind of agreement will be extended to the UK.
TillE 1 hour ago 2 replies      
Norway still allows free movement of EU citizens to their country, which was one of the primary reasons for the Leave vote.

There are a few details which differ slightly (you have to leave Norway after several months without finding a job, whereas the UK will merely pull your benefits), but I don't think that's nearly enough to satisfy the demands of those who wish to drastically cut immigration.

legulere 2 hours ago 1 reply      
I found this article to be quite good for showing what the EU-Norway relationship entails:http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-would-a-norway-styl...
gabimaeztu 17 minutes ago 0 replies      
I do not understand how British elderly doesn't see the damage they are doing to their younger population... It seems pretty obvious that even if you haven't been able to adapt to globalisation you should at least not interfere in the way of the newcomers
surfmike 59 minutes ago 0 replies      
Norwegians pay for access to the common market (I think even more per capita than other EU countries), still participate in Schengen, and have no say in the EU.

Hardly seems like what the Brexiters wanted. But an arrangement like that might allow UK to be more free to negotiate trade deals with Asia and other parts of the world and have a bit more flexibility in their immigration policy than they had under the EU.

secfirstmd 1 hour ago 1 reply      
At least GCHQ will be outside the EU. Not that it matters and NATO collabortion won't continue.
Comparison between Rust and D maikklein.github.io
44 points by dumindunuwan  10 hours ago   17 comments top 5
nachtigall 6 hours ago 1 reply      
Says not much about garbage collection: Rust does not need one, D (at least its stdlib) needs it. How about Nulls or concurrency?

Seems to go very much into details about syntax bike shedding but not saying much about the more "global" design differences.

programLyrique 6 hours ago 1 reply      
I'd really like to have type-level numbers natively in Rust. Implementing a vector generic on its dimensions seems to be so much easier in D!

Any prospect about that?

teamhappy 2 hours ago 1 reply      
I think the section about immutability should mention that this is possible in Rust:

 fn main() { let x = true; let x = false; }
I was pretty disappointed when I found out about it.

jpgvm 7 hours ago 0 replies      
This is really neat. I have dabbled in Rust and have been meaning to go back and look at D.

The other linked posts regarding meta-programming features of D are also great.

d33 1 hour ago 1 reply      
I'm getting the impression that D is a failure. Is there any bigger project written in it? If not, why would it fail?
Build your own 6502 Microprocessor Kit kswichit.com
64 points by ingve  16 hours ago   17 comments top 3
mindcrime 13 hours ago 6 replies      
Interesting. I just got interested in going the 8-bit retrocomputer route, as I've always wanted to learn the low-level hardware stuff... down to the level of the CPU, the data bus, memory bus, I/O support chips, accessing RAM, keyboard interfacing, etc. So, to that end, I just decided to build a Z80 based microcomputer.

Somebody asked "why z80 and not 6502 (or 8085, etc.)" I guess the 6502 is a fine choice, but my subjective perception is that - out of the popular processors from that era - the z80 is the one that still has the most actual commercial applications, and is the one that is easiest to source, find up to date information on, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, but so far it seems going the z80 path is pretty accessible. I was able to source chips from Jameco with no problem (and they're pretty cheap), and the z80.info site has a ton of useful info on homebrew z80 machines[1].

I was also able to pickup a copy of the book "Build Your Own z80 Computer"[2] by Steve Ciarcia, which should help a little.

Anyway.. not to take anything away from the 6502. If it turns out that chips are available, I may take a stab at building one of those after I do this z80 thing. But for now, this feels like the "path of least resistance". But I'd love to hear about anyone else's experience building an 8-bit machine, regardless of which processor you chose.

[1]: http://www.z80.info/homebrew.htm

[2]: https://www.amazon.com/Build-Your-Own-Z80-Computer/dp/007010...

gshubert17 1 hour ago 0 replies      
I uncovered a SYM-1 6502 microprocessor kit and power supply. I'll have to check to see if it still works. Back in the early 1980s I recall writing a few programs and storing them to cassette tape through one of the interfaces. And I think I upgraded the memory to 4K! It was quite a lot of fun.
znpy 11 hours ago 1 reply      
Oh boy.

I used to use a similar thing in high school, the Z80 uProfessor, which is based on the Zilog Z80.

(edit: yep, I have used the same "Multitech MPF-1 Kit" board!!)

So many memories!!

Comodo has filed for express abandonment of LetsEncrypt trademark applications comodo.com
278 points by FredericJ  19 hours ago   86 comments top 18
AdmiralAsshat 18 hours ago 8 replies      
Evidently the company realized they were fighting a losing battle, particularly after the CEO's disastrous response:


nneonneo 16 hours ago 2 replies      
In the original Comodo forum thread about this issue (where the CEO made some claims about owning the 90-day certificate) there is this new response from a staff member (https://forums.comodo.com/general-discussion-off-topic-anyth...):

> With LE now being an operational business, we were never going to take the these trademark applications any further. Josh posted a link to the application and as of February 8th it was already in a state where it will lapse.

> Josh was wrong when he said wed refused to abandon our applications. We just hadnt told LE we would leave them to lapse.

> We have now communicated this to LE.

On LE's blog post, they mention that they have repeatedly asked Comodo to abandon the applications since March 2016. If Comodo was going to let the applications lapse as they claim, why not communicate this at the earliest opportunity?

To me this is a dodgy answer at best. I am not so familiar with trademark law, but I don't believe that an application "being in a state where it will lapse" is in any way disarmed - it is my impression that Comodo could simply have opted to continue the process, but is pretending that they wouldn't have in order to avoid bad press.

AdamGibbins 18 hours ago 0 replies      
Great to see a resolution to this issue, but this doesn't change the huge distrust in the organisation I've now gained. I won't be for the foreseeable future be buying any Comodo service again. They're clearly horribly misaligned with my values.
ShakataGaNai 15 hours ago 0 replies      
> thank the Let's Encrypt team for helping to bring it to a resolution.

Translation: Thank you LE team for sending the seething rage of internet masses after us. We surrender.

ovt 18 hours ago 2 replies      
Glad they gave up, but calling it collaboration and speaking of thanking is silly bullshit.
viraptor 10 hours ago 0 replies      
I'll never be sure if this is true, but it will be in my memory... User robinalden is the CTO, who I tweeted ~2h before the response was posted (https://twitter.com/viraptor/status/746138644537237504). Given that he only posted 13 times on those forums, I hope I actually caused him to ask Melih what he's doing :)
dsr12 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Let's Encryption updated their blog post:

"Update, June 24 2016

We have confirmed that Comodo submitted Requests for Express Abandonment for all three trademark registration applications in question. Were happy to see this positive step towards resolution, and will continue to monitor the requests as they make their way through the system.

Wed like to thank our community for their support."

skywhopper 16 hours ago 0 replies      
Alas, it's too late to save the business they lost forever from my company and others who switched our business to another provider literally yesterday. Thanks Comodo, for letting us know you are not a company we wish to do business with.
ausjke 14 hours ago 0 replies      
Never used Comodo, and never will.

Beside abusing the legal system, there is something else called right and wrong by common sense. A CEO does not get that really should try a different job.

jtokoph 17 hours ago 1 reply      
Too late for me. Already renewed my expiring certs elsewhere yesterday.
tetrep 14 hours ago 2 replies      
Why do I see this post as "[flagged]"?
technion 15 hours ago 0 replies      
It's a statement made by what appears to be a new employee, who earlier on in that thread appeared to contradict their CEO.

Melih's arguing on that thread has reached the level of trollbait.

diegorbaquero 16 hours ago 1 reply      
Still, will never buy from them again.
ComodoHacker 3 hours ago 0 replies      
OK, I won't change my nick to ComodoPhacker this time as I planned to.

Does anyone know a good free alternative to their Comodo Internet Security product? I know there are plenty of free AV products, but I also use its firewall and HIPS features, especially detailed logging.

ocdtrekkie 18 hours ago 2 replies      
It's amazing how a bit of bad press can expedite such matters. :) Nice try, Comodo, better luck next time.
davidgerard 16 hours ago 1 reply      
We are switching our Comodo certs over to Let's Encrypt because certain old Android versions we have to support work with LE certs but not with Comodo. Particularly important for APIs.

The 90 day expiry is a bit of a faff, but we've mostly automated it using acme.sh and automated DNS edits, and now we just need load balancer access (we just moved to new hosts). LE is a godsend and fully up to commercial use in our experience.

After this, there is no way on earth we're giving Comodo money again. I would rather pay Thawte than these bozos.

pmontra 12 hours ago 0 replies      
A wise decision to limit losses and a face saving statement. They shouldn't have started this, hopefully a lesson for other companies.
stanislavb 8 hours ago 0 replies      
HackerNews has won!
My God, it's full of yaks ronjeffries.com
168 points by ingve  22 hours ago   105 comments top 23
userbinator 8 minutes ago 0 replies      
I think the real problem here is the rise of huge libraries/frameworks/SDKs along with all the dependencies they bring, and the dependencies those dependencies need, etc. The problem isn't in code you wrote and should easily be able to debug, it's in the orders of magnitude more code you didn't write but depend on. There's too much complexity, too many moving parts, and it creates a fragile system in total.

But I think it doesn't really need to be that complex and involve so much yak-shaving. Around 10 years ago, when I wanted a personal web app of the similar CRUD type, I opened a text editor, browser, and the PHP documentation, and it was done in a few hours. Uploading a single file to the server was all that I needed to get it working and test it.

I thought Id write this article about my experience, to try to draw some learning from it. I created the folder and the file, typed in the YAML and the first paragraph, and started Jekyll to build the html as usual.

Would it have been easier and faster to just write the HTML directly and upload it to the server instead of requiring an elaborate (despite hidden behind one commmand) "build" process that again depends on a large infrastructure of software?

Me, I just want to write programs, mostly small, that do things that may be worth writing about. And I want to write articles like this one, convert them to HTML, add them to a few indexes, and put them on my site

My advice is to avoid all the complexity and big systems that claim to do just about everything while requiring plenty of configuration and dependencies, if all you need is something that could be much simpler. Otherwise you are "making more yaks to shave".

wheaties 18 hours ago 9 replies      
The problem here is MacOS. The amount of work around and hacker I've had to do on Mac far exceeds anything on Linux and more surprisingly Windows. Let that sink in, it's easier to get things to work on Windows than Mac.
cwp 15 hours ago 2 replies      
This is why I love nix so much.

Getting a dev environment set up with nix is the usual amount of hassle. The difference is that nothing ever works by accident. Therefore, once it does work, I know I've captured all the dependencies and configuration, and I can reproduce the environment wherever I want.

mcguire 58 minutes ago 0 replies      
Before you start trying to draw conclusions about the general state of development, consider that Mr. Jeffries...

"Some further very simple tweak, which I no longer remember, and the test ran and did nothing. Thats not too surprising, I guess, because theres no

 if __name__ == '__main__':
"which, I believe, means that no one calls the testrunner.

"Youre supposed to know that!"

...is also the fellow who had some trouble with Sudoku[1].

I say this not as an attack on Mr. Jeffries, but as a way of pointing out that shaving yaks is easier if you know to start with shears and not a hatchet.

[1] http://ronjeffries.com/xprog/articles/oksudoku/

bduerst 20 hours ago 3 replies      
While this isn't a solution for many, I usually do development on a Linux VM for these exact reasons. Something not working? Boot a new VM from scratch, install necessary packages, and run it.

Usually faster than a couple days of internet searching.

Tyr42 2 hours ago 0 replies      
I don't want to be harsh on the buy, but some of those dark corridors were in fact marked as not where you wanted to go.

>To eliminate this warning, please install libyaml and reinstall your ruby.

This line should make you think of using brew or apt-get or whatever to grab libyaml first. A few clues, the lib prefix is much more common for native libraries rather than interpereted ones. Second, the request to re-install Ruby means that this is a dependency that is required at compile time for Ruby, which rules out anything you'd install as a gem.

But maybe I just have shaved too many yaks and know what what already.

nickbauman 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Ron is right: it's a mess. But I have a tried and true recipe for app engine python and java both. First, download the Linux cloud SDK (works fine on a mac). Then download the python google appengine SDK. Put the appengine SDK inside the platform directory of the cloud SDK. Add this to your python path.

I use this framework for Python: https://github.com/agostodev/substrate

I use this Clojure template for Java:https://github.com/nickbauman/cljgae-template

twic 16 hours ago 1 reply      
One lesson i had beaten into me at an old job is that software should come with a self-contained reproducible build with an absolute minimum of external dependencies (which might be none at all). If GAE provided a zip file with everything in it, all set up and ready to go, you could download that and get working.

But making a self-contained build is hard, so nobody ever does it.

Java has got usefully close in recent years. You can download and build a Gradle project with only a JDK and a shell installed, plus HTTP out to the internet; the project can (should!) contain a standard wrapper script which can download the right version of the build tool, and the build tool can then download the right versions of the dependencies and do the build. The downloads are cached locally so you don't download the internet on every build. The wrapper script only does straightforward stuff, so it doesn't require a particular shell or version, and the JVM changes slowly and safely enough that you can get away with being pretty sloppy about versions (ie any Java 8, 2014 - 2017+, will do).

There's no dependency on having some SDK installed, or some version of the runtime, or some build tool, or some package manager, or any other bits and bobs. Just a shell and a JDK. You don't have the problems listed in the article, and you don't have to invest time in avoiding them.

The next step would be for the wrapper to download the JDK itself, but i think that's unlikely to happen, due to bandwidth and licensing.

Once you're in the build tool, there are strong conventions about what's where. The 'build' task should do everything; 'check' should run every kind of validation possible; 'assemble' should build every artifact. Ideally, none of them should require any setup, although that requires some discipline on the developer's part.

I don't know of any good way to set up things MySQL or RabbitMQ if you need those for integration tests, which is definitely a problem. Perhaps we need a Docker plugin, so in my build i can say "to run the integration tests, download and start the following images, and inject the container IP addresses into the tests like so". The usual way to get around this is to use pure Java in-memory options for integration tests (eg H2 for a database, maybe something like HornetQ for a message queue), and you can get those like any other dependency, with no manual setup needed.

Sorry for the ramble. tl;dr yaks are bad, but there is hope for canned pre-shaved yaks.

robohamburger 20 hours ago 2 replies      
This is why I have always been scared of GAE. Seems like the only thing that works precisely like GAE is GAE :)

True unit tests though ought be runnable outside GAE since your code should not be coupled with GAE if it is unit testable. You still need to test your code correctly integrates with google app engine.

I would take a look at tox and py.test for testing in python, these are what I use in my normal linux environment.

pnathan 20 hours ago 1 reply      
I have things to do that don't include wasting days of my life because Bozo the Developer updated something and expected downstream to just cope with the issues. Certain communities live on that behavior; its a waste of my time churning.

I would like to point to the Rust developers as ones fostering a more deliberate culture with tools and practices that manage change without exploding downstream.

phlakaton 19 hours ago 0 replies      
I don't want to derail a splendid rant on yaks, but for GAE users running into this little problem of how to test and run:

We use OS X for development, for the most part, but Linux works well too.

We use nose2 with the following plugin to run unit tests: https://github.com/udacity/nose2-gae . It assumes your GAE SDK is installed at /usr/local/google_appengine.

For API tests, we generally create a webapp2.WSGIApplication object during setup, configured with the routes we want to test, and we send webapp2.Request objects to that application using request.get_response(wsgi_app).

Hope that helps!

mikelward 16 hours ago 2 replies      
I tried to reproduce to file some bugs, but the docs Ron linked to and the datastore_test.py[1] they in turn link to don't do "import webtest", so I guess the docs have been updated recently.

A quick search suggests webtest is part of Pylons[2]. But Pylons isn't listed as a built-in third-party library[3]. So I'm not sure if there's anything to fix.

1. https://github.com/GoogleCloudPlatform/python-docs-samples/b...2. http://docs.pylonsproject.org/projects/webtest/en/latest/3. https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/python/tools/built-i...

swagtricker 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Yep. There's a reason after 20+ years that I bought this T-Shirt:


digi_owl 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Seems to me the problem is layers of "automagical" systems for locating dependencies. That in turn end up clobbering each other in various ways.
X-Istence 12 hours ago 0 replies      
As the current maintainer of WebOb it pains me to see Google App Engine shipping 1.1.1 by default, and 1.2.3 as one that the user can select.
justinlardinois 16 hours ago 0 replies      
I can echo GAE being hard to work with at times.

I did an app for a school project and was using Flask. At the time App Engine only had webapp and web2py available as frameworks (maybe it's different now) so a bit of shoehorning was necessary to get Flask working, and Flask was relatively young at the time so there weren't a lot of examples out there of the two technologies being used together. I recall having a lot of trouble working with GAE's file upload API.

iLemming 15 hours ago 0 replies      
yeah it's a mess. Modern developer has to know and understand language semantics and ecosystems of Python, Ruby, Java, C, Lua, Javascript and sometimes these are not the main languages of her work. Add to it things like Clojure, Erlang, C++, C#,F#, Purescript, Typescript, Elm, Mathlab... you get the idea
pcr0 15 hours ago 0 replies      
I'm glad Docker solves this for me, at least at the company I just joined. One of their microservices has tons of dependencies, including npm modules, databases, testing frameworks, and so on. Most people would scoff at using Docker as a glorified VM, but it honestly does the job, with much less overhead vs VMs.
pbackx 19 hours ago 1 reply      
You Python developers have it easy :) Developing in Java on AppEngine adds an additional herd of yaks to the meadow.
SolarNet 9 hours ago 0 replies      
One of my jobs as the person usually responsible for setting up and writing the core bits of new projects at my company is to make a build that just works. All most all of our core (e.g. serious) projects consist of the following steps:

* git clone

* setup.{bat, sh)

* Open IDE of choice.

* Click build button. (or run make)

The only dependencies are git, a default PC OS install (Linux, Windows, Mac), and your IDE of choice. Any project or system that can't provide that easily is too complicated by far, our non-technical CEO and sales staff can build and run our code without any help.

dkarapetyan 19 hours ago 1 reply      
This is nothing. Ramp-up time at any software shop with more than 2 engineers is months. He had a really easy time from where I stand.
hellofunk 17 hours ago 0 replies      
mkesper 20 hours ago 3 replies      
MacOS does not seem to be very developer friendly.
UK votes to leave EU bbc.co.uk
2957 points by dmmalam  1 day ago   2405 comments top 197
_ph_ 1 day ago  replies      
A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a lot of fundamental rights and freedoms. In my eyes, the EU was very much about the same thing. It didn't matter in which part of the EU you lived or had your business. Being part of the EU granted you rights and equal access to the rest of Europe.

The EU in my eyes should aspire, to what the US has achieved already, being a large region, composed of quite a lot of different states, which are united, so that there are no arbitrary geographic borders limiting the freedom and the rights of the individual. This is not always easy, and it means, that the richer parts have to give to the poorer, but that is just basic humanity.

Especially I am sad for the young generation in the UK. A very large part (about 75%) voted to stay in Europe, and this future is taken from them. I would guess no small part of them will try to move to the remaining EU states.

beninvalencia 1 day ago 32 replies      
As other comments have noted, the point is that the EU will not want to give the UK a good deal on leaving, because the EU does not want to give any encouragement to the other countries which want to leave the EU (some of which want to leave more strongly than the UK do - apparently).

Secondly, why would the UK end up with a Norway or Switzerland deal, when the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world? This is unprecedented. This isn't some one sided negotiation.

The EU needs the UK. If you sift through the garbage press, you'll see that the BDI in Germany - "The Voice of German Industry" - says that trade curbs against the UK would be "foolish". Of course they would be! Do you know how many German cars are sold in the UK each year?

"About a fifth of all cars produced in Germany last year, or around 820,000 vehicles, were exported to the UK, making it the single biggest destination by volume." Source: FT.com

"The UK is the fourth-biggest export market for German engineering companies, with sales of 6.8bn last year." Source: FT.com

The scaremongering goes on even after the vote has been called...

siscia 1 day ago 7 replies      
We are all talking about economics but the whole deal is way more noble than mere money.

No European ever has never think "woow this shinny $consumer_object is been produced inside the EU so I don't get to pay the import tax" but every single European younger than 50 at least once in its life has open up the Ryanair website and thought "for 30 I guess this weekend I will be in London/Paris/Berlin/Madrid/Rome".

The whole point of the European union is to be able to watch rugby with the English, get drunk in Berlin with good beer, being lazy at the seaside for a whole day with the Italians, have sex (or at least try to) with smoking hot French girls. And yes I can use the most stupid stereotypes because we all know that those are just stereotype and we can make fun of each other like only good friends can.

The most infuriating thing is that the oldest part of the English population is taking aways these opportunities from the youngest British.

martythemaniak 1 day ago 15 replies      
Is Scotland going to be exiting the UK next? Guess we'll see in a few years.

Hard to know what will happen here, but I suspect once the UK (or what's left of it) signs a trade deal with the EU, they'll get the same deal as Norway - all the compliance with EU regulations, with none of the say. I suppose people may be happy with that deal, as long as they can get to say they're "free".

I'm hoping this somehow leave the EU in better shape, perhaps more cohesive, perhaps reforming in ways to minimize chances of anyone else leaving. As a Bulgarian (not living in Europe) this makes me somewhat bitter - seems Englishmen can't accept belonging to a club we also belong to.

slg 1 day ago 6 replies      
I think this should be a wake up call for those of us who are American. Populist movements that rely heavily on anger, fear, and anti-immigration rhetoric can still be effective in western democracies even if a large majority of experts think it shouldn't and won't happen. This is the first time I have legitimately thought we might end up with a Trump presidency.
darawk 1 day ago 18 replies      
So, devil's advocate here: Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing? I feel like most educated people seem to think this is terrible (and the markets seem to agree), but to me, the European union seems like an anti-democratic institution that doesn't really provide much value.

I mean, don't me wrong, removing trade barriers is probably good. But won't the UK just be able to pretty quickly renegotiate basically similar terms again anyway? Are their trading partners really going to stop trading with them or substantially alter their tariff schedules as a result of this?

dangjc 1 day ago 13 replies      
It's amazing that such deep constitutional change will be achieved with such a slim majority. 48% of British people will be ejected out of the EU essentially against their will. The UK has always embraced first past the post voting, but it really shows here how it creates very discontinuous inflection points.
anothermouse 1 day ago 2 replies      
For those of you outside the UK, please realise that this was not a xenophobic vote. Just because there were racist scum in the crowd voting brexit, doesn't mean all brexit supporters are likewise.

There are many reasons why people voted to leave but the journalism covering this seemed to only be able to cover the sensationalist parts of the debate in the most childish fashion. This needed a serious discussion amongst adults, with a lot of thought and we didn't get it.

So if it wasn't some racist backlash to immigration, then what was it? While I can't speak for all, here is a piece that explains many of the issues that people actually have with Europe, delivered in the serious manner that I wish more of the debate had been.


pavlov 1 day ago 4 replies      
I'm a Finn, and always thought that UK could be an interesting place to live some day. This decision completely destroys that possibility because moving to a non-EU country is not a realistic option -- I wouldn't go out of my way to look for bureaucratic headaches. Since the UK doesn't want people like me, I guess it will increasingly become another place I never think about.

This was a major win for isolationism, but it's not clear to me why an island wants to be increasingly isolated. When you're already geographically isolated, wouldn't you want to try to compensate against that by reducing mental isolation rather than actively reinforcing it?

Ultimate independence is when people forget you exist at all.

imperio59 1 day ago 2 replies      
The most interesting thing is the age distribution of votes:HOW AGES VOTED(YouGov poll)18-24: 75% Remain25-49: 56% Remain50-64: 44% Remain65+: 39% Remain

Read into it what you wish, but this really sucks for the younger generation who did not want this yet will be stuck with this decision, likely for their entire lifetime.

Gatsky 1 day ago 4 replies      
Yet another example that immigration policy trumps pretty well all other concerns. This has played out several times in Australia. 5% of the population suddenly voted for a nationalist candidate Pauline Hanson who came from nowhere, had no policies, no credibility and no clue just because she was against immigration. Major political parties took note that day, and since then they have in various roundabout ways adopted a similar stance on immigration, knowing that it is electoral suicide to entertain reform.

It was sobering to see Brexit campaigners citing Australia's immigration policy as a 'good system'. In reality it is the opposite of courageous and humane government. But clearly, it's what people want...

thetmkay 1 day ago 4 replies      
I voted today.

I work in London at a startup with international markets. I believe in the ideal of free movement. I think the EU is a bit of a mess conceptually and mechanically, but in general a step forward for Europe.

This is really the beginning of a very long, tedious and ultimately unsatisfying couple of years of dissatisfaction and instability as we negotiate with the EU and the rest of the world.

csense 1 day ago 0 replies      
Contrarian opinion: I think Brexit's good for Britain. The EU is an example of the "tail wags the dog" situation which I think is similar to the way the American colonies felt about being ruled by Britain in the 1700's. Distant bureaucrats imposing rules not liked by the people they were imposed upon. For example the way the Germany / Greece situation worked out, with Germany feeling they had to spend money they didn't want to spend on Greece and Greece feeling like Germany was forcing them to impose austerity measures they really didn't want.

The British issue seems to be largely with immigration (foreigners working for cheap and bringing down wages for everybody else) and economics (Brits were promised the EU would bring them prosperity, and prosperity isn't in the room right now, so they want to leave). But it's the same sense of the British people feel they're suffering by rules were imposed by an external entity (the EU says they have to accept these immigrants and these economic policies even though they don't really want them).

The liberal opinion machine has done their best to paint pro-Brexit folks as racists, fascists, equating Brexit with Trump and Trump with Hitler. I think this is dishonest and not only slanders the conservative side, but reflects poorly on the liberal side as well (if calling the other side names is the best means of persuasion you have available, it says nothing flattering about the strength of your arguments.)

tmptmp 1 day ago 1 reply      
I wish to point out an important but not-directly-economical angle to Brexit that has seemed to play an important role.

I wish the liberals take a notice of the problem of immigration, mainly the immigration of from Islamic countries. I am a liberal at the core. But what I have found that when it comes to Islam, many mainstream liberals and liberal politicians follow a double standard. The legitimate criticism of Islam, Quran and its prophet are shunned by many mainstream liberals by labeling it as racist attacks, Islamophobia, far-right and what not. I call such people phoney liberals.

The phoney liberals take a stance that the Britons/Europeans should bend over backwards to accommodate Muslims along with their medieval, backward Islamic way of life in order for the integration. They never tell Muslims in clear words that "Look, we have a policy of separation of church and state, in your case it means separation of mosque and state. You should accept, if you want to live here, that we value freedom of speech and that includes freedom to offend you too by criticizing Islam or by making fun of your religion, your prophet, your scriptures and your religious practices." But what did the phoney liberals do after Charlie Hebdo episode? They criticized the tabloid for being offending to Muslims.

A liberal thinker Bill Maher has put this in a very good manner [1],[2],[3],[4]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntv3a80RGiw

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL8rZTuGfZo

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75Zfgj2k0KM

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipu0ifyC-Xc

smcl 1 day ago 1 reply      
The way Scotland voted "Remain" is pretty stark: http://imgur.com/gallery/JjbEPZZ/new

I can see an Independence Referendum 2.0 being pushed through...

return0 1 day ago 1 reply      
It could prove to be a bad, really bad decision for the UK. It could probably be a great gift to those who despise the UK in the EU. The british overestimate the power of their economy at this moment i believe.

- They had the unique privilege of a strong, international financial sector within the EU, while simultaneously having their own monetary policy. This attracted foreign capital, and this capital will feel less safe now.

- They profit massively from the import of EU workers, not just the low-paying ones. Lots and lots of academics were welcomed to the huge academic sector. These workers don't have familial ties to the UK, they can move to another european country easily.

- They profit from having hundreds of thousands EU students in UK universities. They used this arm to export their ideas and technology. This means their influence in the continent will be severely limited now.

The resignation of David Cameron is a testament to what a big failure this is. I am still of the opinion that the referendum was more of a way to blow off steam for various issues , and the EU is used as a scapegoat here. Unfortunately, whatever the motives, in democracies decisions are respected. On the other hand, this presents plenty of opportunity for european countries, which stand to benefit from an inevitable shift of commercial activity.

PS. What is funny is that british english will no longer be a EU language, even though it is the most widely used language in europe. I guess we 'll start using the maltese or irish accents more often .

mmsimanga 1 day ago 0 replies      
As an observer out here in Africa, I understand why the Brits may be fed up with the way immigration is being handled. The citizens of Europe are being told to be welcoming. However, there is no solution in sight in the home countries of the immigrants. When are all the wars in the Middle-East going to end? When are the African dictators holding their countries to ransom going to be replaced by good governments?

I purposely did not go into reasons why the said regions are unstable. At the end of the day the wars and governance issues need to be sorted out to stem the flow of immigrants. I don't think anyone has the answer. The solution is certainly not for the whole world to migrate to the "developed" countries.

disordinary 1 day ago 5 replies      
The average age of someone who is voting to leave is above 60, the average age of someone who is voting to stay is below 35. The older generation have voted for something that the younger generation did not want but are now stuck with. They have voted away their future for short term gains.

The sooner the baby boomers are all retired the better.

lossolo 1 day ago 4 replies      
Unfortunately nationalism and populism won another war. Now watch Scotland make referendum to leave UK and after leaving they will join EU.
mk89 1 day ago 1 reply      
Although I do understand a lot of comments about how sad and bad it is for Europe and for growth of this European identity, I am also of the idea that if a country doesn't want to stay, well, don't. I am alright, it means that Europe will have more decision-making power. It was a pain in the ass every once in a while to assist to UK's requests and threatens. We can focus now on how to make a better Europe. And things will move - very slowly, but they will. That's how history is, after all.

Ah, just saying: the amount of refugees / people requesting asylum to UK is way less than in Germany/Hungary/Sweden just to mention some. This was just a populist move/slogan.

lettergram 1 day ago 4 replies      
I still have severe doubts this will happen. It will take many years to renegotiate and most treaties will be in effect until then.

My guess is very little changes, it's more of a sign that people want their country sovereign as opposed to being ruled by a committee in another country.

k-mcgrady 1 day ago 0 replies      
What an absolute disaster. From what I've seen it was pretty evenly split (although a couple of points towards remain) in all age brackets up to 75+. People who won't be here in a few years when we actually leave have decided the fate of the country. If Scotland can do a deal with the EU to become a member if they can gain independence they'll win that, and the joint-ruling party in Northern Ireland is calling for a border poll as NI, like Scotland, voted remain (and the result is arguably going to have the biggest effect on Ireland).

In my opinion the biggest issue in this campaign has been the propaganda. Already Nigel Farage has been on TV admitting one of the campaigns ads was completely wrong and any one I've seen defending a leave vote simply has the response "we couldn't let things stay the same". On both sides, despite months of campaigning, voters are completely uneducated on the consequences of either decision.

eganist 1 day ago 1 reply      
It's a domino effect looking forward. Other nationalist parties in other nations e.g. France will look at this result and try to leave as well. Scotland could easily leave the UK given that they wanted overwhelmingly to stay. It'll be interesting to watch how foreign UK citizens will be impacted with their jobs in Europe.

The consequences are huge.

jacquesm 1 day ago 2 replies      
Surprising that a simple majority is enough to effect such a massive change, one would expect that a supermajority would be required to change the status quo.

It's a sad day for the UK's younger generation who voted overwhelmingly to stay, the older generation, who will depend for their bread and butter on the younger ones has just made their life a lot harder.

Everybody that's gleefully celebrating will be in an excellent position to review their take on this in a couple of years when the real impact will be a lot more clear than it is today.

arethuza 1 day ago 2 replies      
I wonder if the EU will now say that Scotland can get membership if we vote for independence? Obviously they couldn't do that while the UK was in the EU, but now that the UK wants to leave and Scotland doesn't that view might well change.


NB On a personal note I am way more upset by this result than any other election or referendum I have voted in - even the first Scottish Independence Referendum.

dandare 1 day ago 2 replies      
To understand how irrational the voters decision is, consider this story: here in Czech Republic, many people now "oppose the dictate of the EU" because as a part of consumer protection scheme introduced by EU Czechia's favourite margarine brand had to change it's name from butter to margarine. Only butter products can be labeled butter now and this has become a fuel in the increase of eurosceptics. Fubar.
Chromozon 22 hours ago 2 replies      
This is what happens when major decisions can be determined a simple majority vote. What does 52 to 48 mean? It means UNDECIDED. Half the country feels one way, and the other half feels the other way. For a change this large, it should require at least a 60/40 vote. If the population is undecided, why on earth would you suddenly stop what you have been doing for the last 50 years (which has worked out fine) and go down a different path? There needs to be much more of a push in the other direction.
peterkshultz 1 day ago 4 replies      
I had been following the likelihood of a Brexit on Bloomberg. Before polls opened today, they said there was a 25% chance of the UK leaving. Seems they were quite, quite wrong.


secfirstmd 1 day ago 0 replies      
People of Ireland speaking here:

-Want to stay in the EU?

-Enjoy low corporate tax rate of 12.5%? Pro-business government?

-Enjoy friendly, well educated, English speaking, Pro-American people, good beer, decent music, nice quality of life, low crime and safe green natural environment?

Invest in Ireland -> http://www.idaireland.com

This has been a public service announcement from the country next door. #irelandlovesyou :)

jlg23 1 day ago 1 reply      
I'm not from the UK and I don't have any problems with the Limeys but I still thinks this is awesome: For way too long national governments in the EU have passed legislation on the EU level when they could not get it through national parliaments and then they could refer to "the EU says so". I hope this serves as a wake-up call to national governments that they should actually listen to their citizens.
coffeeaddicted 1 day ago 0 replies      
I blame the cookie law. You force millions of websurfers to click daily on OK buttons which basically say "EU make some bloody stupid laws" and you get some advertisment effect in the end.
chubs 1 day ago 0 replies      
The country that gave us the Magna Carta, literally the manuscript for limited-government liberty, has done it again, on (almost) its 800th anniversary! Super interesting days ahead.
addicted 1 day ago 1 reply      
[quote]Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader, has told ITVs Good Morning Britain that he thought it was a mistake for the Vote Leave campaign to say that it could save 350m a week by leaving the EU and that the money could go to the NHS.[/quote]

Well, nice to see that UKIP is wasting no time backtracking from the lies they sold this vote with.

djsumdog 1 day ago 0 replies      
The UK and the US really head the current hegemony that is currently instilling so much war in the world. I believe the EU does share this responsibility, but I also really hope the UK leaving the EU helps the rest of Europe in in pushing back against these covertly back wars in Syria and elsewhere.

British citizens may not be able to world and live throughout the EU any more either. People already abroad may lose their work status on nations without reciprocal fall-back agreements.

This is a pretty big change, but I don't think it's a bad one.

_audakel 22 hours ago 0 replies      
Going out on a tangent - Would California be more successful as an independent country rather than as a state of the US?

As things stand, California is currently the eighth largest economy in the world on their own. 17 of the top 30 U.S. tech companies are in California, which should come as no surprise. Tourism, entertainment, biotech, and agriculture are multibillion dollar industries already. Aerospace and defense contracts still rake in around $25bn a year. And many state business leaders are increasingly showing a real commitment to renewable energy.

Overall, while I believe there is definitely more potential for a social democratic style of government if California were its own country, the changes would not be that drastic. Barring a major collapse, California would, like Canada, still remain in the U.S.'s economic and cultural shadow. And who knows? Secession might be the best thing to happen to other states like Texas, New York, and Massachusetts. Who else would be capable of filling the void left in the energy, media, and technology industries? There is certainly upside in such a move but also a great deal of risk.

geff82 1 day ago 3 replies      
I'll take my UK company home to Germany at the end of the year. No need for a base in a non-EU-country.
patrickaljord 1 day ago 0 replies      
Am I the only one who kind of feel positive about this regardless of the negative consequences in the short term economically. I mean, democratically this is a landmark, the people have just decided to reject one of the biggest and most powerful government institution on Earth in a peaceful way, by voting. I don't think this has ever happened in the history of humanity that a people decided to say fuck you to a huge powerful government body and be done with it peacefully, just voting them out of their life. This in a way should be celebrated. I mean, the very goal of a democracy is the power for the people to do exactly that, remove and change their government institutions whenever they feel like it. It could also all turn out ok if the UK becomes a EEA member.



Johnie 1 day ago 1 reply      
British Pound is at the lowest level since 1985 at 1.33 USD/GBP.
jackgavigan 1 day ago 1 reply      
There's a decent chance that this will spur the EU into proposing a package of reforms with a view towards a second referendum. Technically, this referendum was an advisory referendum (i.e. its result is not legally binding).

If that doesn't happen, I would expect the UK to shift from membership of the EU to membership of the European Economic Area (alongside Norway and Iceland) or similar.

mstade 1 day ago 0 replies      
As a Swedish national doing business with clients in London, I fear the implications of this. As it were, I was able to stand up my business and start working with clients in London in a matter of a couple of weeks (with the lion's share of bureaucracy being Swedish, not cross-state.) No VISAs, no satellite entities, no special tax lawyers, just get a Swedish company up and start working with the UK. Done.

The EU may be flawed in many ways, but the free movement of people, goods, and services ain't one. Unfortunately, that flies squarely in the face of the leave campaign's "controlling the borders" message.

Sad day today.

323454 1 day ago 0 replies      
Looking at the age split in the vote, if I were a young Brit I would be considering tax evasion as a form of protest. If the older generation wants a free ride while simultaneously cannibalising the future of the young, let em starve (in the sense of reduced government services).
a13n 1 day ago 8 replies      
Can someone please give an unbiased summary of what this means and how it will impact the UK, Europe, and the rest of the world?
davnn 1 day ago 5 replies      
I truly do not understand our society. Europe is split, even if the countries aren't, the people are. Every political decision ends up being a race of the well-educated against the less-educated. The clash of classes happens not only in Europe, the Trump success is the same story. Maybe I'm just too young and uninformed to understand and that's how the world works ever since?
matt_wulfeck 1 day ago 0 replies      
I'll take my position as a "leave". In my opinion recent years has shown that power centralization brings a lot of harm. Even among our own government, I'll predict we'll find more value on powerful local and state governments.
pavornyoh 1 day ago 4 replies      
A bit of a naive question as I am fascinated by what is happening. I admit I don't completely understand so my question is if the UK is made up of England, Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland why aren't they represented at the European cup currently being held/played in France as the United Kingdom?

Why are they playing as separate countries yet voting together to leave the EU? I don't get it.

patrickg_zill 1 day ago 2 replies      
I don't understand the hand-wringing.

Countries have engaged in trade for thousands of years - Brexit won't change that.

rcarmo 1 day ago 0 replies      
The tech industry is going to be upended: investment gone, nearshoring companies essentially gutted of their cost advantages, and the London startup ecosystem severely damaged, since _a lot_ of tech workers in the UK are expats.

Might be an opportunity for some (am hopeful that the Web Summit moving to Lisbon will boost things here), but I'm not sure there will be any substantial upside for this anywhere...

garyclarke27 1 day ago 0 replies      
Britsh Turkeys just voted for Christmas.V sad day I am utterly depressed, sets back civilisation's progress by a generation.One lesson from this is - Never underestimate the stupidity of the majority.US will be next and vote Trump in.
grownseed 1 day ago 1 reply      
I have a particularly strong attachment to Scotland, and as most Scottish people have, I would have voted to remain in the EU, however messy it is, though I suppose my opinion on the matter has little relevance since I can't vote.

More interestingly, I find this is a telling example of the limitations of democracy as we know it. Democracy, very broadly speaking, ignores population clusters (physical or ideological) to the extent that the "voice of the people" is actually not representative of anyone's in particular. I've tried to educate myself about alternatives or adaptations, but I have to admit I haven't found anything especially convincing thus far.

osmala 1 day ago 0 replies      
The controlling political parties in rest of EU have huge interest of making Brexit costly to Britain even if it hurts their own country. If Brexit is successful and Britain improves then Euro-optimistic parties suffer future elections.Britain is having to negotiate with lots of countries interests, each controlled by political parties with their own agendas and trying to win against other parties in their next elections. Getting rid of eastern European immigration was main reason of Brexit now Britain has to get approval of countries whose population they just slandered in elections.

Its unlikely to have ANY deal between EU and Britain, there are too many conflicting interests. So the end result is that all the EU deals just end and there is no replacement deal for them. Problem is when lots of countries want to leave their own mark on the deal and lot of people in the deal making process has vested interest in making bad deal for britain and Britain really cannot approve such deals.

ivoras 1 day ago 5 replies      
One more thing: the UK was the official reason English is one of the languages of the EU (same as, on paper at least, with all the other languages). It will require some more fiddling to keep it so.
blhack 1 day ago 3 replies      
I don't really understand the reasoning either for or against this.

The default seems to be non eu-membership. So why should Britain stay in the EU? People are commenting on this as though it's really obvious.

rdtsc 1 day ago 4 replies      
Being selfish here, wonder how this affects US.

Even though on the surface EU and UK are alies and trade partners, it is not all black and white. I believe US will benefit because they will be able to play UK against EU and vice-versa to gain somehow. Say if EU doesn't allow import of US chicken they can go and try to persuade UK to not allow some import from EU in exchange for some other favor and so on.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if this strengthens US's stock market in short to medium term, as everyone will flee to US stocks due to perceived volatility.

alkonaut 1 day ago 1 reply      
I fail to understand how this is a referendum on migration as it is claimed to be. The movement of people with the EU is independent of the flow of people into the EU (the "migrant crisis" of the Syrian war for example).

So how is it about migration? Are UK voters afraid of eastern European EU migrants or is it something else?

If anything, being a part of the EU allows the UK to force migrants to seek asylum in the country where they entered the EU. Outside the EU I don't think they will have that possibility?

hkjgkjy 1 day ago 0 replies      
Swede and EU citizen.

Saddened by this, but the people's voice shall rule.

What I would like to see is a more Swiss-style democratic involvement in EU. It is not for no reason many Europeans feel detached from what the EU does.

deepvibrations 1 day ago 1 reply      
"When I was a young man, I wanted to change the world.I found it was difficult to change the world, so I tried to change my nation. When I found I couldn't change the nation, I began to focus on my town. I couldn't change the town and as an older man, I tried to change my family.Now, as an old man, I realize the only thing I can change is myself, and suddenly I realize that if long ago I had changed myself, I could have made an impact on my family. My family and I could have made an impact on our town. Their impact could have changed the nation and I could indeed have changed the world."
hardwaresofton 1 day ago 0 replies      
Would love to see what the people who were shorting european stock (expecting this outcome) made out with.

I think I read an article earlier today about Blackrock shorting like 50% of their european holdings or something?

aryehof 1 day ago 0 replies      
I think the original EU (EEC) idea of a free economic trade zone was one that members could share and embrace. However, the Maastricht Treaty in 1993 went too far in "uniting" countries which do not have shared values, cultures and economic systems and priorities.

Now we have a two-tier Europe with rich and poorer EU states. Capital and investment leaves the rich states for the poorer ones because of low wages and costs, while population leaves the poor for the richer states for their higher paying jobs and generous social welfare support.

Guess where all the refugees and economic migrants want to live?

It's a reality that cannot be sustained.

dang 1 day ago 0 replies      
There was an earlier discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11964880, but that one was focused on the results in progress while this one is focused on the outcome, so we'll treat this one as current.
cm2187 1 day ago 1 reply      
To those who think the UK will be hurt more than the EU, I find it interesting that the FTSE (-8.4%) is down less than the DAX (-9.5%)


Obviously if you compound that with the pound losing 10% a FTSE investor is worse off. But my boss has met many investors recently and his feedback was that more investors were concerned for the future of the EU rather than the future of the UK.

beninvalencia 23 hours ago 0 replies      
I think it should be said to clear things up that EU citizens in the UK are not going to be "chucked out". This is not going to happen and the major political figures have said as much on live broadcast today. Yes, it would be prudent to get indefinite leave to remain if you can or something more solid - whatever you can. But the UK needs you and even if a hardcore right wing lunatic tried to expel you it is completely impractical.

I also noticed some Irish people mentioning they would have to sell their house and leave - please for your sake, look up the official information on Irish/UK rules, you will find that they have freedom of movement regardless of the EU and in fact it goes much, much further than the EU rules.

Specifically: "Unlike other EU citizens, UK citizens may retire to Ireland without having to establish that they have sufficient resources or that they have private health insurance." http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_t...

"Irish citizens automatically have a right to reside in the UK as part of the common travel area. If you were habitually resident in Ireland or any of the other places in the common travel area before you came to the UK, you will automatically satisfy the conditions of the HRT." https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/coming-from-abroa...

I think everybody needs to try and calm down. Even though a great many of us would have preferred not to leave, this can be OK.

The UK can easily end up in the EEA which has freedom of movement etc anyway.

This is not the time for panicked reactions!

glenndebacker 1 day ago 0 replies      
You know what I shows a lot how trustworthy a Great Britain is. Begging (you know the period where De Gaulles had his veto ?) to get in the EU because their economy was not doing great and from the moment that there are some problems, instead of dealing with those problems getting out.

That being said as a European I couldn't care for the fifth "biggest" economy and I really hope that the EU keeps their 2 year timeline (if no deal can be reached in that timeframe it should be over) and deals on EU terms. They should not give a Switzerland or Norway deal without a hard bargain. My country and region is exposed a lot (jobs at our own country btw, trade,... ) and we where slowly recovering and now we are kicked down again. In the future we need to look for better and reliable business partners.

Also it's sickening to see how this give extreme right wing parties (and not right wing in the American sense, but really racist xenophobic parties) a boost. All old is new again, it is only 70 ago years we saw the same uprising of these kind of parties. I do hope that this doesn't jeopardize peace at the main land, that I fear the most. I can only imagine that a Putin is having the day of his life.

On a political sense I think in the end the EU can be possible better of, they never had a constructive attitude. With all the special statuses it got, it was already an island in Europe.

Btw seeing how the Euro is also falling, the whole idea of a weakened pound which have a positive impact regarding trade is also seriously backfiring. UK goods and services are still as expensive, maybe more after today.

Numberwang 1 day ago 0 replies      
Sigh....London should have a vote next to leave the UK.
50CNT 1 day ago 0 replies      
Since the discussion keeps circling back to effects and economics, I found this paper on "The Economic Impact of EU membership on the UK"[0] published by what looks like the House of Commons, which includes cost-benefit analyses of EU membership, effect of the EU on UK trade relations, impact of immigration from the EU, impact of EU regulation, Fiscal consequences of EU membership, etc.

Whilst it doesn't seem to cover every nuance of the situation, it adresses some of the points brought up for discussion in this thread, such as punitive tariffs (ruled out based on WTO non-discrimination rule), and seems like a fairly unbiased primer. It's fairly short too, 32 pages, written for a MP level of reading comprehension.


sengork 1 day ago 1 reply      
This correlates with XE.com currency converter website being down at the moment. Probably due to the pound value fluctuating...
pbarnes_1 1 day ago 1 reply      
This is a disaster. Something with such a huge impact on global society as a whole should have required a 2/3 majority.
nmy 1 day ago 1 reply      
Many US companies open a branch in London to enter the EU. It will be interesting to watch whether it does continue or if they choose another EU country.
M2Ys4U 1 day ago 3 replies      
I have never felt less British than I do right now. :(
jstsch 1 day ago 2 replies      
Ironically Brexit might bring a federal Europe closer to reality. It strengthens the dominance of France and Germany.
tajen 1 day ago 0 replies      
I had no opinion about UK leaving Europe (because we don't know what their new situation will be), but I just wish a referendum existed every few years for all international treaties signed by our leaders, when they act as law. I'm looking at you, TPP and TTIP.
alexnewman 1 day ago 0 replies      
I never hear people bring up the undemocratic nature of the EU. Heck most Americans think the troika is a town in Greece
jedmeyers 1 day ago 1 reply      
As some people already said, even if the vote will be 'Leave' the Parliament most likely will not consider it and will not part ways with the EU siting some made-up problems, that "prohibit" the exit right away. Await another referendum until the necessary results are obtained.
Zpalmtree 1 day ago 4 replies      
Really proud that my country chose democracy over a potential loss of money.
sidcool 1 day ago 1 reply      
So apparently the majority can be convinced to do something silly; who would have thought that happening in a modern, civilized, western world, the connected world, the flat earth!

We underestimate the power of idiots in large numbers.

chvid 1 day ago 1 reply      
If this is followed by a Trump win in the US, it will mark the biggest change in mature men's hair style of recent times.
Khaine 1 day ago 1 reply      
I think this shows the dangers in ignoring those without power. For to long, people who were made worse off by integration with the EU were ignored, when they voiced concern about immigration were shouted down as racist, were mocked, were made to feel stupid and now this is the result.

I'm not saying that racism or xenophobia did not play a part, but when you brush everyone with concerns with that brush you push them towards extremism.

This is a sad day for the EU and for the UK. This is a bad outcome for each side. I'm not sure where we go from here.

baristaGeek 1 day ago 1 reply      
I'm hearing a lot of people comment that this will cause a huge macroeconomic deficit worldwide, and I'm going to briefly explain why I believe the Pound Sterling's 9% devaluation is purely speculative.

The UK simply didn't buy the EU's story about the Euro, and now they want a fully independent monetary policy. I'm not sure how much they have studied such possibility, but I bet that taking this to a democratic level was a data-driven decision.

The EU is going to want to put some political pressure for sure, but I don't think that they are going to want to do such a huge damage as wanting to establish a trade embargo with the 5th biggest economy of the world.

ascription 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Britons today recover from a political bombshell, a vague distant aspect etched on the faces of Remainers and some Brexiteers alike, never quite fading as they proceed through the polite machinations of a just another Friday. Today there was no fire, nor planes charting a new course as they veer around the vertical borders of the common market, yet to the observer one thing is clear - something has changed, and this thing may not be undone.

As the enormity of the situation sets in, Britain must reflect on her status. Yet as currency and foreign investment alike tick into the ether, we cannot afford leisurely introspection. Commentators alight to social media, fast food opinions winding through the networks to be forwarded, appraised, accosted, and forgotten.

A stunned middle rouse from their silence, incredulity reigning. Someone must be blamed, and there are no shortage of targets. The deceitful far right must surely be deposed, their 350 million untruths a week publicly unravelled at the teeth of the media. Tautological slogans, much as we must surely want to Make Britain British again wear thin, amid claims of xenophobia being noncommittally dismissed, and swiftly, lest anyone ponder too long at their origin.

The leave campaign celebrate an ethereal success, yet no definition of success appears. Nor was one provided - a marginal result in a referendum which declined to assert a majority, or to be legislatively bound to parliamentary action, leaves dangerous room for interpretation, yet as a consequence manages to leave none at all.

The glaring omission makes one thing clear - there is no plan - for who can plan for what cannot be defined? The stage show props of austerity budgets are shuffled back under coats amid sheepish mutterings of ah, well, before the vote, you see. The idea of success of this referendum was to do not with the outcome, but with its existence. A scrap, thrown far to the right in exchange for a grubby four years, has swiftly been devoured, and the leader finds his four years have, overnight, been devalued to two.

Exposed to his short sell on the exchange rate of democracy to political capital, he has built an unflattering legacy. The leader who failed to lead, and the alumnus who handed the keys to the counterfeit every-men riding a wave of anti-intellectualism, has gambled one time too many and must bear the greatest loss of his era. Not only has the sea between Britain and the world become rougher than ever, but the political dice are cast, and as they tumble to a halt, the shape of the United Kingdom itself now rests on how they lie.

alva 1 day ago 0 replies      
A beautiful day for the UK.

No longer will those with "wrong opinions" be shut out of debate and policy because they are conditioned with a pavlovian response of fear from being called bad names

tzs 1 day ago 1 reply      
Considering what parts of the UK preferred to stay and which preferred to leave, I wonder if overall the way to give the most people what they want would have been to leave the UK in the EU but have England leave the UK.
mariopt 1 day ago 4 replies      
Does anyone knows how this will affect tech recruitment?
kspaans 1 day ago 1 reply      
If Northern Ireland can't secede and join the Republic of Ireland, what will happen to that land border?
627467 1 day ago 1 reply      
The alt-right agenda gets their first win. It's not just crazy ideas that people will never validate.
estefan 1 day ago 0 replies      
...and Cameron announces his resignation... nearly... will he...? and... yes. His position was untenable.

It goes from bad to worse. Leaving the EU and now we'll get Boris Johnson as well.

justinzollars 1 day ago 0 replies      
I wish people would stop opening pandoras box. This could get messy.
woodpanel 16 hours ago 0 replies      
As a modernist I loathe the Brits for this vote against the European project. As a libertarian I applaud them for their courage! As a stock holder I need a drink.

I try to make up my mind, which Union will be more affected by the Brexit: The European Union or the British?

Both institutions deserve some "house-cleaning" but after the Leave-Win it is sort of "either-or": A vote for "Union A" becomes a vote against "Union B" and vice-versa.

lemiffe 21 hours ago 0 replies      
This discussion on Hackernews should have happened before the exit and not after, 2100+ comments so far, it goes to say that we all have strong opinions on the matter that might have swayed some of us that can vote in the UK.
dangjc 1 day ago 1 reply      
Is modifying the free movement of people provision a workable compromise? The Swiss recently also voted to limit EU immigration. Sweden, Denmark, and France recently had temporary border controls to deal with refugees. Maybe there should be stronger adjustment mechanisms so people aren't 100% free to move en masse for now, yet still have the long term goal of achieving the freedom of movement ideal.
bobthechef 21 hours ago 0 replies      
So now that the transatlanticists (Hilary is one) have lost their EU insider, I suspect Poland will take its place. Given that Poland is a geopolitically strategic country, given Russian aggression, and given that German and Russia are "talking again", it seems that Brexit will prove fruitful for Poland in the long run...if both countries play their cards right. Impeding Polish immigration to Britain can also force a turn of events in Poland that prevent the gov't from relying on immigration to deal with unemployment through long overdue reforms.
bromuro 1 day ago 3 replies      
As someone who doesn't want this neo-liberist, anti-democratic EU I see this as a very good news. Let's hope Denmark and France to follow.
iamflimflam1 1 day ago 0 replies      
The map here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results is pretty frightening for the UK - Scotland will demand another independence referendum. This time they will win and it's the end of the United Kingdom.
jld89 1 day ago 0 replies      
Better a divorce now than later. They've been wanting to leave since the 80's. Everyone will be better off.
lucb1e 1 day ago 1 reply      
What's most interesting about this thread to me is that before the vote the general consensus was "nobody knows what's better anymore anyway, hence also the close call". Now that the decision has been made to leave, most agree it was a big mistake and predict all sorts of bad consequences. What changed?
jv22222 19 hours ago 0 replies      
I wonder what the conspiracy theorists who believe in the New World Order conspiracy think about this.

Seems like a blow to that theory from where I'm standing.

nailer 1 day ago 0 replies      
Tried to warn HN yesterday about this, it reached the front page in seconds then was flagkilled despite being massively relevant to British tech startups: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11952724
thesimpsons1022 1 day ago 5 replies      
anyone else concerned? The entire world seems to be moving towards fascist right wing nationalist politics. Whether it is the brexit, trumpism, or the austrian elections.

Europe keeps getting destabilized. If i was an enemy of europe and freedom, id be cheering. Instead i'm deeply concerned.

Xophmeister 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is why we can't have nice things.
register 1 day ago 0 replies      
This vote achieves two objectives. The first is to clarify the position of UK in Europe that has always been ambiguous. The second is to weaken the leadership of Germany showing clearly that they are leading in the wrong direction.In the end I believe that the long term conseguences will be beneficial for the rest of Europe.But UK has to pay the conseguences of their choices. I was already strongly skeptical, after the LIBOR scandal, about having London as the main stock exchange in Europe. After this vote I am completely against it: I want the main European stock exchange to BE IN EUROPE. Frankfurt or Paris are the most natural candidates.
leot 1 day ago 2 replies      
What's stopping Britons from having another referendum?
int0x80 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Man, this thread is unreadable without comment-collapse.
acd 1 day ago 1 reply      
It is sad that Britain leaves the EU. Britain is one of EUs founding countries. One can wonder how this on the long term affects peace in Europe if there are external challenges like a country being invaded.

A good thing I can see is that British offshore banking will not be allowed to siphon off European tax payers money. In my country there is things like pharmacies where medicines are payed by the wellfare state that is owned in British tax havens. Right now that is the only positive effect I can see that may end.

In light Norway and Switzerland are also doing ok as countries.

Tsagadai 1 day ago 0 replies      
This decision is going to have major effects on markets over the next few days.
marcusgarvey 21 hours ago 0 replies      
For everything there is a season. Globalism had a great reputation at the turn of the millennium. Then we had Iraq, the Great Financial Crisis and Syria, which damaged the credibility of the leadership class. So now status quo in the west cannot be taken for granted.
return0 1 day ago 0 replies      
Note to self:

- Learn german

- Invest in german language schools

univalent 22 hours ago 0 replies      
Hate to use a poker analogy but: Cameron forgot the cardinal rule of gambling. Always leave yourself 'outs'. He raised the stakes when he had little to gain (shut up some dissidents in his party?) and everything to lose. No one forced him to do that.
jaoued 1 day ago 0 replies      
"Put 11 fools on one side, 10 philosophers on the other side ... fools prevail. That's democracy " Jacques Brel
luxpir 1 day ago 0 replies      
"For the agreement to enter into force it needs to be approved by at least 72 percent of the continuing member states" [0].

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_withdrawal_from...

codecamper 1 day ago 1 reply      
Good developers must learn to ignore this sort of news & get back to work. That's what I'm going to do!
andy_ppp 1 day ago 0 replies      
There will be massive trade barriers put up by the EU/Germany - this could spell the end of the entire European project - look at how hard Greece got screwed to make sure other countries like Spain and Italy didn't think about leaving the Euro. That German cars will cost more in the UK (like everything else) really won't affect Germany as much as the end of Europe.

And now Cameron resigns - I'm shocked.

Pica_soO 1 day ago 0 replies      
They will come back- the world is gone, where superpowers try to charm the small players. Just look how the us stripped the swiss (a fellow democracy) of its main buisness-model (tax-avoidance). If you are not sumo-sized you will get shoved around, even with nukes.
ommunist 19 hours ago 1 reply      
I think this is a chance for the UK to overthrow Switzerland in private banking. For the rest of us, who are not so private in banking, its time to consider moving to Berlin.
sidcool 1 day ago 0 replies      
That was quite unexpected. Till very late before polling, most people were in favor of staying in the EU. Nationalism takes over logic in Europe again.
nspattak 1 day ago 0 replies      
The EU is nowehere near what its declaration stated. aka there are fundamental problems in this union which the EU is trying to hide under the carpet but they can not be hidden.

What I find surprising is that it is the British who first decide to act about them instead of the southerns.

heyts 1 day ago 0 replies      
This might be somewhat related and certainly is not encouraging in the current context, unfortunately.


pastProlog 1 day ago 2 replies      
At the end of the day, the EU as it is is something that was shoved onto the people of Europe by big business, bureaucrats, Eurocrats etc. Working people feel all the negative impact of open borders and so-called "free trade", and the 1% gets all the gains from it. The mass of people barely feel they have any control over the Parliament of the UK, never mind the even more remote government in Brussels.

Many see the EU as constituted as something concocted by bureaucrats in business and government, for their own ends, a view which I think is correct. So the UK or Greece and the like being fed up with the EU should come as no surprise.

I think the EU as organized is a bad idea. I don't think European integration is a bad idea, but it was done without much consultation of the populace of Europe, and things like this are the result.

In the US, the popular candidates with mass rallies bucking against their party establishments have been Trump and Sanders, although Sanders was pushed aside for the establishment candidate with the help of superdelegates etc. Congressional job ratings for 2016 fluctuated between 13% to 18% approval, 75-84% disapproval. The average American feels alienated from Washington DC because Washington DC is unresponsive to the desires of the average American. The situation is not dissimilar from Europe.

wildpeaks 1 day ago 2 replies      
Guess I'll have to move my Git hosting elsewhere then. That's too bad, I was quite fond of Codebase.
juliangamble 1 day ago 0 replies      
Murdochracy at work...
FajitaNachos 1 day ago 0 replies      
U.S. market futures are taking a nice dump.
dharma1 1 day ago 0 replies      
I wonder how much bank the funds that shorted the pound are making. Some conducted their own polls
mlu 23 hours ago 0 replies      
Why did they let the people decide in a direct referendum in the first place? That seems like a terrible idea for such a complex matter.
PythonicAlpha 1 day ago 1 reply      
That is a clear vote against a Europe that is not about democracy or peace, but solely about trade regulations and the interests of big corporations.

The people in Europe see, how many regulations just come from Brussels to be just acknowledged by their own parliaments and the democratic process is just circumvented. They see, how much is just for the benefit of big corporations and not for their benefit.

In Germany, we see, how the European idea is misused by our own politicians to bring up laws that they would not dare to let be voted on in their own parliaments. They just go to Brussels, let the law be decided there without much democratic intervention and than the law comes back into our country to be just acknowledged without discussions.

The European idea is (was) a good one. A really united Europe would be a good thing and also a strong one. But that is just an idea and not the reality. We saw it with Greece. We are not united. In the end, every nation is just looking on their own benefits and money. We Germans really acted shamefully in this situation and we already have a big trench between northern and southern Europe. Old sentiments and even hatred is growing again in the EU.

The idea was, to have a Europe, where never again will be war. We are now steering in a direction, where wars are getting more likely again, this time because of the EU and the Euro.

Is it good, that UK leaves the EU? No, it is not.

The only thing, I hope is, that the politicians might learn a lesson from it or the whole EU will break.

trekforever 1 day ago 0 replies      
time to plan my cheap vacation from US to London
willyt 23 hours ago 0 replies      
People keep saying 'unelected bureaucracy', but this is a meme spread by the tabloid media. There is the council of ministers which is made up of representatives appointed by each country's democratically elected government. The council directs EU civil servants to draw up legislation. Every one of these representatives to the council has a veto over legislation that is proposed by it and control over how they are represented in the EU bureaucracy. There is then the EU parliament which is elected under a proportional representation system and has the ability to veto and propose amendments to decisions made by the council of ministers. Finally, EU directives are not 'laws' they are more like overarching goals that each country then passes into local laws to implement in detail, which is a further opportunity to kick back unwelcome legislation to the EU. Further, the EU employs civil servants at a ratio of civil servants to citizens of ~1/10000, compared to the UK ratio which is ~1/150. So it's not even particularly bureaucratic. If the council of ministers is making unpopular decisions it is because of a failure of democratically elected national governments to brief their representatives properly and engage with the process.

But the fact is that plenty of people don't have a clue how the EU works. On the streets of Britain, public services have been run down by underinvestment, house prices are out of control due a reluctance to reign in property speculation and good blue collar jobs with decent pensions are being lost to globalisation, automation and 'Uberisation' of the labour market. So a bunch of older poorer people in villages and small towns across England and Wales (not Scotland), read in the right wing tabloids that immigrants are to blame, they take this at face value and fall for it hook line and sinker and will ironically end up with an even more right wing government that no-one has voted for under Boris Johnson. What's more, it was clear that the vote was entirely down to fear of immigration not actual experience of immigration as the brexit vote was strongest in areas with the least immigrants. Places where people have never met a brown person voted most strongly for out based purely on fear stoked by tabloids peddling a racist agenda. Indeed some of UKIP's campaign posters were almost facsimiles of 1930's NAZI imagery.

There is a real democratic deficit in our system though. This referendum was proposed by the prime minister as part of a tactical gamble to control the right wing of his political party. This is a government which was only voted for by 1/3 of the electorate, and scraped through with a tiny majority of 6 MPs. The real wasteful bureaucracy with a strong dose of unelected elites is the UK parliament with the unelected House of Lords and the inefficient Houses of Parliament which is effectively a 'bistable' two party system due to the first past the post voting system. They waste unbelievable amounts of money changing things the previous government set up just in time for it all to be undone when they are voted out 10 years later. Political discourse amongst the populace seems like it is mostly dead in small town England and Wales, but it is striking to note however that political discourse is definitely not dead in Scotland and you can see the results as all of Scotland voted to remain. As an Englishman living in Scotland, and I speak for a lot of other English people I know up here too, I will definitely be voting to leave the UK and stay in the EU if the chance arises. There is plenty that is wrong with the EU, I think the council of ministers should be replaced, but it is at least as democratic as the UK parliament is now and more importantly it is a forward looking institution which is much more likely to evolve into something better than the UK parliament, especially after a vote like this.

ziyadparekh 1 day ago 1 reply      
What does mean for the US economy in terms of exports to the UK and larger EU countries? The pound drops sharply (~15%). The Euro down to $1.08. Does this mean that a stronger dollar will negatively impact US exports?
eksemplar 1 day ago 1 reply      
Is there really an UK left if North Ireland and Scotland deciede to leave?
dhruvrrp 1 day ago 2 replies      
So as this vote is non binding, the UK lawmakers would be responsible for repealing the EU membership. But since Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay, could the Scottish MPs block the actual exit?
arisAlexis 1 day ago 1 reply      
The historians of the future will point at Greece for playing a major role in brexit and any subsequent demise of Europe with gaming the financial system and f*ng up the immigration issue.
malloryerik 1 day ago 0 replies      
Japan is also being bludgeoned here with safe haven flows to the yen. Up 15% against sterling in a matter of hours. Up 5% against another safe haven, the USD... And they have negative interest rates... wow.
LAMike 1 day ago 0 replies      
Time to buy Bitcoin and gold
herbst 1 day ago 0 replies      
Really happy for the UK. Hope they can figure out a way to make this work without the EU trying to make a example out of them why you should never quit the EU.
benwilber0 1 day ago 0 replies      
They have many good reasons to leave the EU. And very few reasons to stay.
NetTechM 12 hours ago 0 replies      
America did this before it was mainstream.
jayess 20 hours ago 0 replies      
Victory for self-determination.
ratsimihah 1 day ago 0 replies      
If the prime minister is resigning, it seems the vote is irreversible? Does anyone know how the UK plans to grow back strong?
asddubs 1 day ago 3 replies      
so uh, slightly random question, if i import things from great britain to the EU, do I have to pay import taxes now, or is there a "grace period"?
known 5 hours ago 0 replies      
UK joined the EU only so it can break it from the inside :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE
spdy 1 day ago 0 replies      
And the 100 year cycle is in full effect.Sad times ...
lifeisstillgood 1 day ago 1 reply      
Let's call the rising tide of politicians shouting "Our Nation First!" (And stage whispering "Our Race First") something like "the New Right". Not fascism per se but isolationist, anti-laissez faire and definitely anti-science.

So what is "The New Left"? Left wing politics in the UK is in disarray, Bernie Saunders espouses a vision that most of Europe sees as frankly old hat centrist, and there is no defining political viewpoint that is encompassing the (now dispossessed) young, the march of technology, the lessons learnt over communism and socialism.

Is the answer just to double down on democracy? Turn to your principles in time of trouble? We are losing the argument in open debate though. Just more "trust us, this is business as usual" does not seem to be a rallying cry.

Where is the intellectual core of what will oppose the New Right?

dghughes 23 hours ago 0 replies      
I find it odd a United Kingdom doesn't want to be in a united Europe.
code_research 1 day ago 0 replies      
"need to install flash player" everywhere, what a shame. This is the BBC - really annoying.
paradite 1 day ago 2 replies      
A slightly meta discussion:

I noticed that some "typical headline news" are gathering a lot of votes and getting to the top of front page. This seems to be working against the HN guidelines:

If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

I know political news get some kind of penalties. Would that apply to a more generic headline news like this?

Personally, I upvote stories like this purely because of its significance. And I am not sure if that was the intended use case.

interdrift 1 day ago 0 replies      
When I read this I imagine the type of 'leave' voters : old grannies and grandpa's who lived all their lives in a rat hole and doing their backyard. 75% of the youth voted stay. This just shows the huge gap of information that the youth has and the same not used information by the old generations
BeefySwain 1 day ago 2 replies      
Is now a good time to invest in British currency? Are there some good resources for how to do that?
anigbrowl 1 day ago 0 replies      
A disaster. The implications for the EU project, and for global stability, are grave.
csjr 1 day ago 0 replies      
Too soon to calculate the damage on the markets and how long until recovery?
Sami_Lehtinen 1 day ago 0 replies      
It's official - the UK has voted to leave the European Union.
_Codemonkeyism 1 day ago 1 reply      
Young people in the UK got really really screwed.
codecamper 1 day ago 1 reply      
Hmm... What happens to the union with Ireland then?

Will it still be possible to travel from Ireland to the UK without showing documents?

If not... then will there be a new fence across Ireland (between north and south)?

Apocryphon 1 day ago 0 replies      
Is this the beginning of the next great recession?
djyde 1 day ago 0 replies      
It's time to buy Alfred powerpack :P
subie 22 hours ago 0 replies      
2016'th comment.
sidcool 1 day ago 0 replies      
I wonder the role of the US in this.
ck2 1 day ago 2 replies      
My question as an ignorant American is does this mean other countries might also leave and how many can leave before it collapses?
internaut 1 day ago 0 replies      

We should be talking about the lies.

I'm pleased for the British and think in the long haul this is the correct decision.

Right now though that interests me less than what happened with the media. It was all lies on every level I can think of. Even the Kippers thought they had lost the war.

Is anybody going to talk about the fact that when the polls closed odds showed 95% chance of Leave?

This was all very highly coordinated propaganda. What other reasonable explanation is there? Occam's Razor says: conspiracy is the simplest explanation.

Really if you have a good explanation I'll be waiting to hear it.

known 1 day ago 0 replies      
EU is only good for export-oriented countries; Imagine CHINDIA as a EU member :)
beedogs 1 day ago 1 reply      
Welcome to recession, England. You voted for it.
gloves 1 day ago 0 replies      
Sad day. Shocked.
zghst 1 day ago 0 replies      
Really shows how good of a "union" they left with all the scaremongering going on.
unemouette2 1 day ago 0 replies      
UE is deep shit, I home us french can get out of it soon
joe563323 1 day ago 0 replies      
Does it affect asia ?
known 1 day ago 0 replies      
arca_vorago 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is good for the UK but bad for Europe, but y'all won't fully understand this move unless you edge into conspiracy theory territory. Allow me to take you there for a moment.

The supranational oligarchy is mostly concentrated in a few key places in the world, Wall Street, City of London, Vatican City, DC, Switzerland, etc. The supranational oligarchy the most in control though according to my estimations is City of London. I analyze from an American perspective and Wall Street and DC seem to have rolled over for them on most occasions.

That being said, the true goal of the oligarchy is a collectivist global government model. The problem is the collectivist model hurts the countries that join it while propping up their oligarchy.

I predicted months ago UK would leave because they are the ones who pushed the EU onto the Europeans in the first place, (keeping the pound was a dead giveaway), and now I simply think they are aiming to maintain local order and prosperity at a higher level than Europe so as to keep their people placated somewhat.

Next up, massive restrictions on Immigration in the UK.

Recommended reader for background, anything by Carroll Quigley.

api 1 day ago 0 replies      
Well hey, so much for interest rates rising anytime soon. Probably good for tech funding, but bad for many other things.

But that's the only kind of shamelessly self-interested sort of kind of silver lining I can think of. This is pretty bad IMHO.

yarou 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is really a historic moment. It could signal the end of the Maastricht experiment.

A long and protracted disengagement period will only worsen volatility in the market, because of uncertainty around trade deals, as well as the political uncertainty of the UK itself.

Not to sound like I'm wearing a tinfoil hat, but it's not surprising that Soros decided to go long on gold when he did.

sandworm101 1 day ago 2 replies      
And a special thank you from Canada. This vote is going to give Quebec ideas again.
force_reboot 1 day ago 0 replies      
Really happy to see this. Of course this is about immigration. Moderates on all sides of politics in all countries have long asserted that it is important that Israel remain a "Jewish and democratic state". Now some right wing extremists have taken this same logic and applied to other countries :-)
marcoperaza 1 day ago 3 replies      
Take the US federal government, take away 2/3 of Congress's powers, give all of those powers to the civil service, and then replace the President with a committee appointed by state governments on a staggered basis. That's the EU.

Congratulations Britain, today you took back control of your own destiny.

mohsinr 23 hours ago 0 replies      
2k+ comments wow!
youngButEager 23 hours ago 0 replies      
"The EU will be an easier-to-trade bloc of countries that will facilitate trade.


Ask any English-born tradesperson trying to find work in England that pays anything.

The reality is the EU morphed into a Leftist prank to have open borders and CENTRAL GOVERNMENT (in Brussels, Belgium).

The Left says "let anyone into the country who wants to come."

Yet me and my software engineer peers are constantly undermined by the very same thing -- elitists attempts to undermine our wages by flooding the tech worker ranks with as many foreign workers as our worthless U.S. Congress will allow.

No freaking thank you.

When my friends bring up 'the U.S. must eliminate our national borders' and I bring up the fact that our jobs have been undercut, our salaries marginalized, by that very same thing -- over-supply of labor -- it makes them stop and think of this 'no more borders' differently.

dschiptsov 1 day ago 0 replies      
It probably "natural" for island nation with its own currency to remain "independent".

So, economically UK is doomed to be new Japan.

known 1 day ago 0 replies      
notacoward 1 day ago 11 replies      
That's a very strange, and in some cases inaccurate, portrayal of history.

* The British were not an external enemy. That would have been the French. For the most part, even the people leading the revolution were proud of being British subjects and would have liked to remain so, but could no longer tolerate the conditions being attached to that status. Our enemy was recognized to be our own cousins, not some external force.

* The shared dream of settling the continent was real but - given that said continent was already occupied and settling it meant exterminating the current residents - it's not something I'd want to put forward as key to our identity.

* Shared culture, language, religion? Language, mostly. The Puritans in New England didn't really have much to say to the Quakers in Philadelphia, and both had even less in common with the not-particularly-religious folks down in Virginia. Yes, I guess they all were (or at least professed to be) Christians, but that's not too different than Europe today.

So, basically, the difference between the US and the EU, according to the criteria you've mentioned, is that the US united to commit genocide and the EU united to avoid it. Congratulations on making the point that the two cases are different.

vacri 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is going to hammer them so hard, they're going to have to change 'pounds sterling' to 'pounds cupric'...
cabalamat 1 day ago 8 replies      
> What culture do Germans, Greeks, Latvians, Bulgarians, Fins, and Spaniards share?

The one that used to be called the Roman Empire, then Christendom, and is now called Western Civilisation. It is also arguably the greatest achievement of the human species.

paganel 1 day ago 3 replies      
> In my opinion, the chances of any sort of war at this point remain pretty low.

I would have said the same thing 4 or 5 years ago, but in the meantime we did in fact have a war in Europe, I'm talking about the war in Eastern Ukraine (which is still part of Europe). But you're sort of right, who can think of something like that spreading to the Western side of the continent?

Until last night I would would have answered: "no sane person", but after I saw the idiot Nigel Farage speak on the BBC (I don't actually follow UK politics, this was my first time hearing him actually speak) I had quite the internal shock. To hear a (what has now become) mainstream politician talk so vividly against immigration and against "multinationals" in 2016 was... don't know how to put it, harrowing. You're probably from the States where you people treat Trump like the idiot that he is and think that even if gets elected things will move on as usual, but us in this part of the world have had the privilege of slaughtering ourselves in the trenches of the Ardennes or in the steppes of Western Russia because of people like Farage in the past.

banach 1 day ago 5 replies      
On the contrary, historical perspective is essential in understanding the issues that the EU is going through currently. If the German leadership took a good look in the mirror, it would see that it is subjecting Greece to a replica of the Treaty of Versaille and, as a result, should expect similar consequences. The PR outfall of that debacle is probably what pushed the Brits to vote for exit.
meowface 1 day ago 10 replies      
In my opinion, the chances of any sort of war at this point remain pretty low.

However, it's possible a Trump presidency and fractured EU might lead to a perfect storm for some kind of global conflict in a few years. I think still a low chance, but it does almost sound like the beginning chapter of a history book.

lettergram 1 day ago 8 replies      
It's called the commonwealth, and it includes 30 percent of the land mass of earth.
cpncrunch 1 day ago 3 replies      
Please fix title. The article title is "EU referendum: BBC forecasts UK vote to leave". The count hasn't even finished yet, and it is still possible for the remain vote to win at the current time (albeit unlikely).
nicotonico 1 day ago 4 replies      
Of course. Civilisation is built with wars and by killing those who don't share the values of the majority. Why? Because if you don't do it, somebody else will do it to you. As simple as that.

Pacifists are nuts.

Annatar 1 day ago 3 replies      
The English, even to this present day, are not known for being benevolent masters... but they are known for being violent ones, who will stop at nothing to satisfy their short term interests. How many nations have the English downtrodden? How many do they still try to intimidate, bluff, or put pressure on, even as ordinary citizens in management positions?

Of small comfort then, is the fact that the English have abolished slavery in 1833.

To put it poetically, with one hand I embrace you, with another I stick my blade into your throat, while my boot tramples on your broken body, that's the portrayal one might construct from history and contemporary actions and thinking of the English.

And "the commonwealth", oh my! Australia was a penal colony, of, you guessed it, the English. Not the Scottish, not the Welsh, not the Irish (Irish were busy being downtrodden, Scottish were busy massively emigrating because they were poor, while London threw galant parties, and the Welsh were trying to muster every bit of strength and intellect they could, so as not to be assimilated), and New Zealand... oh yes, in "the commonwealth", but not before the English killed a good number of Maori, isn't it?

And then, we didn't even touch upon the mess that the English caused in India, or in Africa (Zulus really "got theirs" from the English, didn't they?), or the mess on the Bosphorus, or the "Arabian question of Palestine", the consequences of which the world is still suffering from today, with all the strife going on in Palestine... ah yes, our English, everybody else in Europe drives on the right, except in Anglo-Saxon lands, where it's of course the opposite... everybody else is on the metric system because it's practical, except for the English, who still scoff at that non-Imperial nonsense from Bruxelles, our "special Petunias", with their "traditions", who view the rest of EU citizens as immigrants... with such friends, who needs enemies?

As sad as I am that the English have decided to ruin it once again for everybody, I say: if the English think the standards shouldn't apply to them, if they think that they are special, well good riddance, and stay out of EU.

ekianjo 1 day ago 4 replies      
Populism is seen as bad by people who want centralization of power (socialists of all borders in general, as well as fascists). So if you have been fed the socialist propaganda for years when living in the EU, you assume it's bad.
threeseed 1 day ago 2 replies      
> Obama threatened the UK of no trade deal.

He NEVER said that. You're either lying or ignorant.

He simply said that the UK would go to the back of the line for trade deals and given it is simply a smaller market than the EU this is understandably so.

hartpuff 22 hours ago 1 reply      
> Young people are still building their lives, trying to establish their career. They're likely going to be denied the opportunity to live and work in 27 countries.

Why? Do you think only EU citizens are allowed to live and work in the EU? Do you think British people are now banned from entry into the EU?

Most people - young or old - do not even want to live and work in another European country.

> I think it's pretty disgraceful that they've torpedoed our future based on their hazy rose-coloured memories of some supposedly-better past.

I think it's pretty disgraceful that people like you demonstrate such incredible arrogance that your minority opinion is somehow innately superior; constructing ridiculous fantasies of why people voted to leave, based on absurd generalisations and a childish, rose-tinted view of the EU.

There's nothing to stop you living in an EU country, if you think by virtue of those two letters it's such a utopia compared to the UK or any other non-EU country (aka almost every country on the planet).

sverige 1 day ago 2 replies      
What about the precedent of the previous, say, five or six centuries of European history? All of that is, in part, the story of "other countries' own interests."

History has rightly judged Neville Chamberlain as an abysmal failure in dealing with German interests. I'm happy that Britain has given Merkel and her cronies the finger.

sandworm101 1 day ago 5 replies      
But you assume that people in the UK have an alternative to those German cars. They don't. Germany makes better cars than anyone else. Brits will still buy them, they will just now be more expensive.

Two words: British Leyland

mudil 1 day ago 4 replies      
Doom and gloom, doom and gloom! In your world, in order to survive England needs to kneel before the unelected bureaucrats of Brussels.
owenversteeg 1 day ago 0 replies      
Since for some reason the larger, older, higher-voted, more popular thread was marked as a dupe I'm copying my popular comment over here:

The BBC just announced that "Britain has voted to leave the European Union".

Leave only needs 2,105,984 more votes to win. [edit 12:15am EST] 1,715,256 votes now and closing fast. [edit 12:19am EST] 1,196,678 [edit 12:27am EST] 894,189 [edit 12:31am EST] 785,549 [edit 12:37am EST] 741,795 [edit 12:38am EST] 592,337 [edit 12:45am EST] 448,596 [edit 12:46am EST] 373,532 [edit 12:51am EST] 308,519 [edit 12:57am EST] 94,635 [edit 1:00am EST] 37,665 [edit 1:02am EST] 0. The UK has officially voted to leave.

Predicted result: Leave 52%, Remain 48%

Wow. So what happens now?

- Scotland voted 62% Remain. The SNP said it will call a second independence referendum if Leave wins. Many estimate that the independence movement will win this time around. Literally every single Scottish division voted to remain.

- Gibraltar will probably be royally screwed [0] as well as some other areas that are heavily dependent on trade/travel with EU countries

- The pound drops like a rock. Was stable at $1.48 all day, peaked at $1.50 earlier after Remain was doing well (~6pm EST), now at $1.33 (12:13am EST), now at $1.32 (12:21am EST) and the lowest level since 1985. In 1985 it hit $1.08, which was then the lowest value in a very long time.

- The pound is down 17% from the yen by the way.

- Other independence movements in other EU countries gain a bit of legitimacy. The euro drops (currently at $1.09, down four cents or 3%), and the yen gains (currently up 6%) (12:25am EST)

- For those of us fortunate enough to have our savings in dollars, everything denominated in pounds is currently on a 12% off sale.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11965342

anu_gupta 1 day ago 2 replies      
> you and the old people voted are small-minded parochial idiots

You can't comment like this on HN, and if you do it again we will ban you. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11967357 and marked it off-topic.

mudil 1 day ago 8 replies      
This is such a bad HN comment and so blatant a violation of the site guidelines that we'd normally ban the account that posted it, but I hate to ban accounts that people have had for years. If you post anything like this again, though, we will ban you. Civil and substantive comments from now on, please, or none at all.

Edit: I just noticed how many other inflammatory comments you've posted to this site against its rules. Please don't do that any more.


deagle50 1 day ago 2 replies      
No political flamewars, please.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11966471 and marked it off-topic.

jnwrd 1 day ago 0 replies      
smh uk
srott 1 day ago 0 replies      
I wish they would revert to Imperial units.
MrLeftHand 1 day ago 2 replies      
My gosh, loads of people commenting.

Hacker news is indulged in politics as we speak. It's a shame really.

But to add my views to the board...

Yes the EU wasn't perfect. I wouldn't call it undemocratic, or despotic, or communist, fascist, etc...

But it was start of something getting people together. Making Europe a whole.

Now the Brexit sparked other right wing parties in member countries to gain popularity. And we all can remember where far right nationalism leads to.

Remember Hitler being on the cover of Time magazine? Because I do.

jliptzin 1 day ago 1 reply      
I am from the US visiting Germany for the last couple of weeks. You guys need to cool it with the football. Parading in the streets wearing the German flag after winning a game vs Poland, harassing someone wearing a polish flag cap. Really? Combine that with an EU breakdown and you guys are going to start WW3.
Why Does Software Rot? overcomingbias.com
85 points by nhaliday  21 hours ago   70 comments top 17
fallous 17 hours ago 1 reply      
In most of the cases discussed in the article, it's not the software that rots but instead the users and/or organization that decays. When a system is created, it is generally designed to solve a known set of problems encountered by an existing population of users. Over time, the tool creators, original users, and the current problem domains change but often the old system is modified to solve these changes. A flexible system may be adaptable to certain amounts of change, but only if the current populace of creators/maintainers as well as users understand the limits. If they do not, the software often ends up less useful than if it had never been touched.
brownbat 18 hours ago 2 replies      
Note, article is not talking about bit rot, I think that's confusing a lot of people.

The point might be clearer as:

"Adaptability and efficiency are opposing priorities."

Ecosystems face this too. A stable environment will lead to adaptations that improve efficiency, while creating new dependencies on everything staying the same. In a sense, species are constantly competing to make the ecosystem more fragile.

If this holds, there are broad impacts to information systems outside of software. broader impact of this. We like to fantasize about the mind being immortal. Maybe we could fix the telemere thing, figure out cancer, hop our brain to a clone, or upload our consciousness to some cloud.

But in my experience, being mentally alive involves some mix of plasticity and progressive refinement. You can't have both forever.

jussaskin 19 hours ago 5 replies      
Software rots if you can no longer set up the exact tool chain and environment (compiler, build tool, OS version, external database, etc) required to build and run it. Even interpreted languages suffer from this problem as features are subtlely changed - by design or accident. It doesn't matter if your project is using an ancient version of VC++ or a two year old version of NodeJS. If it doesn't keep up with the latest releases of the tools then it's already got one foot in the grave.
boznz 19 hours ago 1 reply      
Unless your sandboxed in a self contained hardware and software environment (such as an embedded system) you will eventually be screwed. (rot sounds like a gradual degradation its generally not in my position)

Standards changes and OS Updates are the biggest culprit; The Vista update broke a couple of my old programs (written for Windows 95) due to the user access control changes, another was broke due to the fact it interfaced to a piece of hardware on the parallel port and the parallel port and the manufacturer went the way of the dodo.

I have seen a stand-alone DOS 6 program running a machine at a factory. The PC has been replaced three times now is only a few years old but the operator says it still does the job, I also have a 8051 powered clock I built in 1987 that still happily ticks along if I plug it in.

WorldMaker 18 hours ago 1 reply      
An interesting simile here is that software rots in the same way that Encyclopedias do.

(This is admittedly a fitting simile partly because the simile itself is being rotted by software like Wikipedia.)

In the world where new Encyclopedias (and Almanacs and Recipe Books) were printed and sold on an annual basis, the question was often why do we need "this year's Encyclopedia" when the old one is still perfectly valid. Books in general decay pretty slowly and have a long shelf life, but the facts and the views in the world inside them are frozen and possibly. Changes from year to year of an Encyclopedia are somewhat hard to notice, but in Middle School in the 90s I recall having to compare articles from a tobacco yellowed Encyclopedia set from the 70s to trips to the same articles from very early predecessors of Wikipedia. The worlds contained in those two sorts of Encyclopedias were very interestingly diverging. The yellowed Encyclopedia's facts were almost all still valid and "worked", but there were things that didn't hold up and lots of new facts that needed to be inserted in various places. If I were to edit an Encyclopedia, I'm not sure I would start from the version in that yellowed Encyclopedia if I could find a more recent set. Some of the predecessors to Wikipedia were direct descendants of that yellowed Encyclopedia and yet for various reasons historical and technical, Wikipedia itself did not inherit directly from that set in any meaningful way.

(It's interesting to note too that the physical media of software to date has a much shorter shelf life than the pulp medium of books, tobacco-smoke-filled library aging included, so argument exists that software rots worse than Encyclopedias physically, at least.)

textmode 13 hours ago 1 reply      
"... the arrogance and self-indulgence of youth."

s/youth/younger programmers/

How can they make work for themselves?

1. Do what's already been done, not even knowing it's already been done.2. Declare "rot" or some similar claim of obsolescence and proceed to redo what's already been done.

There's nothing necessarily awful about this unless they fail to do a better job than the earlier effort.

Alas, this is too often the case. For a variety of reasons.

In the early days, portability was a higher priority. Not to mention longevity. Because everything was expensive.

Today's software "rots" a lot faster than the software from the early days of computing, IMO.

And so the younger programmers have lots of "work" to do.

Yet I do not see much progress being made. Because I do not measure progress by productivity alone.

Programmers who can churn out code in a dozen different languages to do the same old things are a dime a dozen.

As a user, I do not want software that needs to be updated every week. Poorly written software and gratuitous use of network bandwidth.

But I can see how programmers who love writing code would enjoy this state of affairs.

notacoward 16 hours ago 0 replies      
I think rot is not quite the correct metaphor. In my experience it's more likely to ossify, become sclerotic, build up scar tissue. As features are added or performance is tweaked, individual pieces become more complex and the connections between them multiply. If specific action (refactoring) isn't taken to fight this tendency, later developers will react to one piece being maintainable by making even more spurious connections and workarounds in adjacent pieces. That fixes the immediate problem, but makes things worse overall in the long term. Ultimately everything turns into the kind of tangled mess that everyone who has worked on an old multi-person project can recognize.

Unfortunately, a good refactoring requires understanding greater than the original author's[1], and therein lies another whole essay. ;)

[1] Related to http://www.linusakesson.net/programming/kernighans-lever/

jussaskin 19 hours ago 2 replies      
I find that integrated tests in software projects go a long way to reducing rot. When something eventually invariably breaks due to some external factor, the test suite greatly reduces the time to identify and fix the problem.
jaytaylor 10 hours ago 1 reply      
"Software rot" stems from the world around the software changing in a way the software is unable to adapt to, and breaking it.
ensiferum 20 hours ago 0 replies      
Wheres the connection to software rot?
hermanradtke 15 hours ago 1 reply      
> Apache, the most important web server software today, is an old piece of technology whose name is a play on words (a patched server) indicating that it has been massively patched.

Is this true? I have never heard that Apache was a play on of words.

dcre 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Software rots because everything does.
lifeisstillgood 19 hours ago 3 replies      
Three reasons:

1. The code is the same but the people using it forget / never knew the reasons it was built that way - and so it looks rotten for the job

2. Because requirements change and people try to make the old code do new things without cleaning up / refactoring correctly - so it now does neither job well, and looks rotten.

3. Because the environment / platform changes, the FTP server is moved to a new data center and the timeouts kill the jobs etc. It looks rotten.

"Rot" more accurately is just not keeping the code inside the code base up with entropy outside the code base

carsongross 19 hours ago 5 replies      
What does rot even mean, in terms of software?

As far as I can tell, he means "Why is complex software hard to change" which is a reasonable, though fairly easy to answer, question.

Software doesn't rot. New features or refactors screw it up. New needs or technologies may make it obsolete. But it doesn't rot, and people who talk that way are often busy-body rewriters who want to pitch the existing implementations, with all their Chesterton Fences[1], and begin anew.

[1] http://www.chesterton.org/taking-a-fence-down/

Spooky23 16 hours ago 0 replies      

Big old hairy mainframe apps have no dependencies, and last decades. Anything new expects constant updating.

tacos 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Stewart Brand wrote a book called "How Buildings Learn" and in many ways it's a better version of this post.


serge2k 19 hours ago 0 replies      
> Newer programming languages are often interesting, but they are typically less flexible at first than older languages. Everything else being equal, older languages perform better and are faster

At the cost of more difficulty in writing, or other tradeoffs (e.g. security).

> Programmers, especially young programmers, often prefer to start from scratch. .. In part because it is much more fun to write code than to read code, while both are equally hard.

No way! You need to NPM literally everything.

A Behind-The-Scenes Look at Pixars New Short Film Piper audubon.org
24 points by wallflower  11 hours ago   4 comments top 3
aphextron 1 hour ago 0 replies      
I find it incredible how they consistently out-do themselves with every single release. There's some real magic going on in that studio.
berkut 5 hours ago 0 replies      
"This amounted to 4.5 to 7 million feathers on each bird in Piper"

I'm pretty certain they mean "barbs/barbules for feathers", as in curves (cylindrical tubes fit to curves in 3D space which are normally used to render hair/fur/feathers) making up these feather elements. In other words each feather is made up of hundreds of curve primitives.

4.5M actual feathers themselves on each bird would be absolutely ridiculous and unnecessary.

claystu 3 hours ago 1 reply      
Watched "Piper" before "Finding Dory" the other day. We liked it better than the feature film.
STGi: Visual STG implementation to help understand Haskell's execution model github.com
48 points by adamnemecek  15 hours ago   11 comments top
greg7mdp 14 hours ago 1 reply      
That's what I like about Haskell. Brilliant people writing really cool stuff. I'm constantly amazed by Haskell libraries!
Introduction to spintronics umd.edu
51 points by Phithagoras  18 hours ago   7 comments top 2
maxander 13 hours ago 2 replies      
Layman questions:

- What are the potential benefits of spintronics to technology? Would it make electronics cheaper, smaller, more efficient, ...? Would it allow something that we currently couldn't do?

- "For example, whether placing a semiconductor in contact with another material would impede spin transport across the interface is far from well-understood." ...This seems like an eminently testable thing- just take a semiconductor, put it in contact with something else, put a, uh, spin current (layman!) through them and check for impedance. What hilariously ignorant mistake am I making? : )

stephengillie 12 hours ago 1 reply      
iOS 10 and MacOS Sierra: Networking for the Modern Internet arstechnica.com
117 points by tambourine_man  22 hours ago   59 comments top 5
FireBeyond 21 hours ago 10 replies      
It may be seen as complexity, but it's something I loved in Windows. The ability to flag any connection as metered.

- I used it for my AT&T LTE USB modem.

- I used it in my car, which has a wireless access point connected to LTE.

Apple's "solution" seems to be (and I can't recall if it was even directly described as such) "we're moving to a world where cellular data will be the same as Wifi, so..."

Except here's a fun fact for you. Did you know the same amount of money will buy you _less than half_ the data package in 2016 from AT&T and Verizon as it would have bought you in 2012? Data is twice as expensive now over cellular, not half.

scrollaway 21 hours ago 5 replies      
"IPv6-only cell service is coming soon, get your apps ready"

And yet, AWS itself doesn't natively support IPv6 - you have to create a gateway for it. Grr. (Sorry for the off-topic rant)

I'm curious, how does Apple detect apps which don't support IPv6?

ex3ndr 20 hours ago 1 reply      
How we can connect by IP address? In Telegram and in Actor we have done direct connection by IP because many public networks have very bad DNS servers. Also banning by host name is much easier than by IP address and avoid government censorship we need to use plain IP addresses and have our own IP sync in messaging apps. But NAT64 doesn't allow plain ipv4 conenction? Right?
kev009 17 hours ago 2 replies      
The ECN stuff is interesting, any router jockeys here? Do you typically allow ECN through your peers?
coldcode 20 hours ago 3 replies      
Bright House (now Charter) still has no plan to support IPV6. So I can't even test at home unless I use my cell connection.
The wisdom of smaller crowds santafe.edu
62 points by mazsa  22 hours ago   24 comments top 6
geoelectric 19 hours ago 2 replies      
The article touches on it, but the clear differentiator I see here is whether the "crowd" has expert knowledge of the domain.

If it does, then the noise of experts clashing (resolving conflicts between equally informed ideas) starts outweighing the benefits of them contributing the ideas to begin with. Basically you get a too many chiefs issue.

If it doesn't, you're seeking to average variably-educated wild ass guesses and taking advantage of the fact that WAGs have a tendency to form a bell curve around the actual answer if there's any ability to estimate whatsoever. Since there's otherwise no special knowledge, that ends up being the best you can get but requires a lot of people to get right.

Without having read up on it, my guess is the latter is related to central limit, with each person's WAG forming the first term of the mean of means; a WAG is itself sampling your own mental model and boiling it to a number. Given enough of those you get a normal that you can average.

kennon42 21 hours ago 2 replies      
The primary thing that determines overall group performance (assuming no interpersonal biases like peer pressure or coercion, etc) would be the probability that any individual chooses the "right" answer. If this is greater than 0.5, then according to the Condorcet Jury Theorem, the limit of the group as a whole choosing the right answer is 1 as the group size increases.

Perhaps having a smaller size allows the "noise" in the group to still produce the "right" answer more often than it would in a larger group?

nickff 20 hours ago 2 replies      
Crowds are wise only if their errors are at least pseudo-stochastic; if they are skewed in some direction by a pervasive bias (high/low, left/right, etc.), their predictions or choices will be driven by that bias.
rxm 18 hours ago 1 reply      
The timing of this post is uncanny given how some large crowds voted.
dredmorbius 14 hours ago 0 replies      
There are a few elements here, one of which geoelectric addresses in an earlier comment: does the crowd have expert knowledge.

Another is whether or not the question at hand requires expert knowledge. There are times when you're better off handing off the helm or pilot's seat to a qualified pilot than trying to average inputs of a large crowd, or to allow an electrician or plumber to address a problem within their skill scope.

A third aspect though might concern what the negative cost functions of a crowd might be.

The wisdom of crowds concept generally assumes the larger the crowd, the better it will be at arriving at some truth. In reality, various biases, distortions, and manipulations can emerge, to the point that the crowd's view is far worse than other options. Aristotle drinks hemlock. Trump is presumptive nominee. Brexit.

An element of networked systems, including decisionmaking systems, is what their cost functions are, in the sense of imposing negative results on those participating. I've been arguing for a year or two now that there is such a cost function, and that you can estimate that by noting the maximum size an effective network can grow to. Conversely, you can increase (or decrease) the effective size of a network by addressing that cost function. Increase it and you'll make large-scale aggregation less viable. Decrease it, and you can increase the size of effective aggregation.

As examples, a village is constrained in total size not only by its ability to secure necessary inputs (especially food and water), but in its ability to dispose of wastes and noxious emissions. London of the late 18th century had a mortality rate above its natural birthrate, and the only way the city could maintain its population was through net in-migration from the countryside (or foreign lands). This wasn't materially addressed until revolutions in water provision and sanitation, including the first modern sewerage system around 1850, addressed such concerns as cholera epidemics which were killing as many as 50,000 people a year.

In programming, Fred Brooks' The Mythical Man Month notes that few programming teams scale well beyond about 6-12 developers. The inter-personal communications costs make larger groups not only inefficient, but less effective, net than smaller ones. To produce larger teams, you've effectively got to split them into smaller ones. That's among the things that a highly modularised development process as is common in Free Software projects achieves -- see Apache, the Linux Kernel, or the Debian Project as examples (Gabriella Coleman, now of McGill University, wrote her dissertation on this topic, it's fascinating reading).

Computer chip design essentially removes the space and resistance costs of crowding high densities of electronic gates in small spaces. Again, the cost function is reduced.

In email and traditional (POTS and mobile) phone service, increasing amounts of spam are increasing cost functions, reducing the appeal and utility of the network to all involved. POTS has been shedding subscribers for some time, my expectation is that mobile phone service itself will be as well, more especially if interconnects, and filtering of VOIP alternatives (including iChat, Google voice chat, Skype, etc.) are further developed. Those networks, as a Long Island friend of mine some time back said, "gotta leahn to tawk to each othah!

hristov 18 hours ago 0 replies      
After the whole brexit fiasco i do not want to hear about the wisdom of crowds.
Sturgeon seeks Brussels talks to protect Scotland's EU membership theguardian.com
55 points by anexprogrammer  4 hours ago   38 comments top 7
carsongross 1 hour ago 1 reply      
This is exactly how secession should work. Clearly the Scots and the English and Welsh have different opinions on being part of the EU. It is tyrannical for either group to force their preference on the others.

So let Scotland secede and join the EU. Problem solved, human freedom and happiness maximized.

See 'Secession: The Reasonable Option Everyone Resists' by Tom Woods:


duncanawoods 1 hour ago 2 replies      
There is a huge problem that the EU and IndyRef questions are mutually dependent and cannot be fairly resolved by asking independent questions in sequence. I believe the nuance of the situation requires multiple questions to be asked at the same time.

Given we have already had IndyRef1 and EU1 the defaults are that Scotland is part of the UK and that there will be a Brexit. There is something wrong about repeating referendums until an irreversible result occurs. I believe Indyref2 would be fairer as two questions:

1. "If Brexit, should Scotland be a separate country?" for Scots

2. "Should we still Brexit if there would be a Scexit?" for the whole UK to vote.

If the answers are "yes and no", then we get status quo.

atmosx 1 hour ago 0 replies      
The EU membership will most likely come with a change of currency, which means leaving the BoE for the ECB. Given the ECB's track record and it's inability to do what a central bank ought to do - protect banks from bank runs, devalue, etc. - I believe that it's suicidal. The QE was was a joke.

Surplus recycling is nowhere to be found in the European Union, vis-a-vis Germany Scotland will have deficit, hence it's doomed in the long run to become like Greece.

The way the EU manages the economy, it's stupid for any deficit country to come in and compared to Germany, everybody will be in huge deficit in the long run. At that point you depend on the Bundesbank to over-value and the German government to raise salaries. None of this will happen, at that point you'll have a country on it's knees depending on a foreign institution (the ECB) who is controlled by a foreign nation which has it's own interests to protect.

I'm sorry for GB. I'm sorry that a nation had to go through this, but their best bet is to stick together.

EDIT: The first thing that the German gov did after Brexit says a long shot about how Germany envisions Europe: They summoned the 6 (or 7) countries that created the European Union. But the EU has 27 members now.

Do you really want to be part of a union who doesn't give a damn about you and give your monetary policy to that union?

About 16 years ago, at her last speech, M. Thatcher in a rare moment of enlightenment said about the EUR: He who control the interest rates controls the Economy and he who controls the economy controls the politics in Europe

She was spot on.

BurningFrog 47 minutes ago 1 reply      
The UK has granted independence to more countries than any other, they know how to do it well, and how to have a good relation with the new nation.
mhurron 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Well, now I need to get Scottish citizenship when they get around to being independent to get around the EU since a British passport isn't going to do it any more.
Oletros 3 hours ago 2 replies      
An important part of the campaign against the independence was that they would be out of the EU, isn't?

The irony is really big here

BenoitP 3 hours ago 2 replies      
       cached 25 June 2016 16:02:02 GMT