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Son, as soon as someone puts their hands on you... sebastianmarshall.com
126 points by kapilkaisare 1 hour ago   82 comments top 36
40 points by ErrantX 57 minutes ago 4 replies      
Not even slightly controversial here.

I suffered 5 years of bullying at school; and tried everything to get it to stop, without success.

Until one day I just got fed up, walked up to the main tormentor in class and, unprovoked, hit him really hard in the mouth (I think I broke his nose, I'm not sure). Was in weeks of trouble (with the staff) :) but once that was out of the way no one touched me again.

I've never outright recommended this approach to anyone; and indeed it's probably not the right thing to do all the time. But some sort of short-sharp-shock can work just as well (so... barging them to the ground etc.) as long as it is sufficiently hard.

39 points by _pius 1 hour ago 1 reply      
I'm reminded of what Malcolm X said to the civil rights demonstrators:

Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.

14 points by pragmatic 1 hour ago 5 replies      
"This comment will be controversial, especially for North Americans and Western Europeans."

No not really. It will perhaps offend the bizarre establishment that has invaded school administration. However, this is bully repulsion 101.

If the system doesn't protect you, you must find a technique that does. Would we avoid school shootings,etc, if we taught our kids to stand up for themselves, don't let yourself get bullied? Real self respect vs the artificial "everyone's special" of today's thinking?

Sidenote: Why is this behavior (bullying) tolerated in school? What other part of our culture accepts bullying as "part of growing up" or "just the way it is?"

7 points by ahoyhere 39 minutes ago 3 replies      
You don't need to hit a bully to break his power.

The trick is to emasculate them. Show them you don't care. When they insult you or hurt you, laugh at them. You just have to mean it.

I was bullied for years until I realized one day why they bullied me - I smelled of fear, and I didn't react, I just stood there and looked at them. Suddenly it all made sense, they were like braindead sharks to blood.

So I started smiling and laughing at them.

Took the wind right out of their sails, and they weren't able to force me to come down to their level.

I won.

Play their game and they still win on some level, because hurting another person hurts yourself.

1 point by marcamillion 5 minutes ago 0 replies      
Just to re-iterate many of the above comments. When I was in 7th grade (in Jamaica you are about 11 in 7th grade), I was perpetually bullied by one guy. Another 7th grader, but because I came from a middle class upbringing and he from lesser means, perhaps he felt a need to exude a 'gangster' image.

Given that I was one of the smallest guys in the class, that naturally meant I became a target.

At first I would try to ignore it, but it never went away.

Well, one day I decided I wasn't going to take it and I fought back. I hit him a few times and we rumbled together and I ended up having him in a 'sleeper hold' - i.e. my arm around & in front of his neck, with my other arm locked around the back of his head - with him fading quickly.

In a fit of desperation he quickly pulled out a compass (the one that had a 1-inch long point) and stabbed me in my arm - to get me to let go. Well, it worked, I let go instantly.

The pain was intense - but he was able to get his breath back. As soon as we both realized what he did, I turned to walk to the bathroom (because it had started bleeding by now), but he thought I was going to the principal's office. Naturally he ran after me apologizing profusely and literally BEGGED me not to go to the principal.

I bluffed a bit, and indicated to him that if he ever troubled me again I am going straight there.

That was the end of that...for the rest of my high school career he never troubled me again. As a matter of fact, if he ever saw anyone else try picking on me, he would kinda take up for me.

So while I wouldn't say 'take something hard and knock them in the back of their head' but simply fighting back and standing up for yourself can help significantly.

Although, a word of caution, I could have easily been stabbed elsewhere (like my eye, or head). So take that for what it's worth and advise your kids of the real potential consequences of fighting back - not to mention further retribution by the bully's friends (which is a very real possibility here in Jamaica).

That being said, I am definitely going to advise my son to hit back - but do it wisely and make sure not to do TOO much damage. i.e. once they back off, stop, leave, and report it (or not, as my case proved) or call me to at least let me know there was an issue.

Edit: Oh and for the record, the wound took about 2 months to heal properly and hurt like a mother-lover, for what it's worth.

2 points by kno 11 minutes ago 0 replies      
I grew up in a tough neighborhood, lower middle class, where we fix issues with fists fights. My dad, a tough guy, hated bullying period. He did not tolerate his child being the bully; he made us understand that is was shameful to mistreat the weak and the young. He always told us to stand our ground when attacked, he said if the attacker was stronger and bigger we could use a stick, a stone or anything that could really hurt the attacker. My dad said we should not respond to a push with a push, he thought an attack should be met with a response x times. A punch for a push; my two brothers and I were known for our fierce defense abilities, which made us safe from bullying growing up.

Today as a parent, I give the same advice to my children. We are a minority in our neighborhood and my kids go to great school. They have been through multiple attacks from bullies. My son is in middle school and so far has been able to fight back at many would be bullies. I made it clear to the principal and some parents of bullies that my children are permitted to fight back when attacked, that I will stand by them in all circumstances.

So far it has been working pretty well next year my daughter will be in high school and my son is a reputed defensive player in the basketball team.

33 points by nhashem 59 minutes ago 2 replies      
I liked this post until he started talking about fighting the Chinese mafia and jump kicking criminals. At that point I wasn't sure whether his point was, "take your own bullying into your own hands" or "watch me brag about how badass I am on the internet."
2 points by toast76 14 minutes ago 0 replies      
I'm the youngest of three boys. We all went to the same high school. When I arrive in Year 7, there were apparently quite a few kids "lining up" to have a go at me. My brothers were well respected academics as well as both celebrated for their Basketball and Athletics achievements, and I was the geek.

My group of geek friends and I took our share of hassling in the first week. It was probably day 4 when one of the bullies had a go at a friend of mine (over a paper aeroplane if I recall) so I stood up to him. I then got backed into a corner by 2 or 3 of them who started really hammering me.

Something snapped in me.

I started kicking, punching, kneeing, throwing windmills and swearing like a crazy person. I don't know how long it was before a teacher came out and broke it up. But I'm sure it wasn't long, and I'm dead certain that I barely made contact with anything. We all sat in the principals office and got a stern talking to. The older kids were suspended, I was let off...probably because my brothers were star pupils.

They thought I was bat-shit crazy. For the next 6 years I wasn't hassled again.

1 point by a_m_kelly 3 minutes ago 0 replies      
If you find yourself to be interested in this sort of thing more broadly, in the justification of violence or it's utility, I recommend William T. Vollmann's exhaustive, intricate attempt to establish a framework for understanding the motivations, morals, and ethics of violence in his work Rising Up and Rising Down: Some thoughts on Violence, Freedom & Urgent Means.

To give some idea of what the text is like, here's a little bit of it from a section called "Where Do My Rights End?":

   "Justified Choices of the Self:
1. Whether or not to violently defend itself against violence;

2. Whether or not to violently defend someone else from violence.
3. Whether or not to destroy itself.
4. Whether or not to help a weaker self destroy itself, to save it from a worse fate.

1. No attachment to nonviolent creeds.
2. No attachment to collectivity or authority which might prohibit the self from removing itself from "the line of fire"
Caveat to (1) and (2): So-called involunrtary attachments are not binding..." (pg 81-82. Abbr. Edition)

The abridged edition from which I quote above is over 700 pages and includes case studies and narratives of people, nations or groups acting a certain way, which Vollmann slotting them into his "Moral Calculus," I haven't had a chance to finish it yet but I remain interested in the elaborate thought experiment that is the book and the vividness of the historical anecdotes it contains.

Vollmann would fully support responding to violence in kind, there's a long section on non-violent movements and their utter hopelessness in the face of regimes unwilling (like bullies) to tolerate any dissent.

[The classic example of this is perhaps Harry Turteldove's story "The Last Article," which proposes Ghandi campaigning in a Nazi occupied India and ends just as you would expect it to.]

0 points by maxklein 15 minutes ago 4 replies      
You don't end a fight by starting a fight. It works in theory, but it just causes a culture of violence.

People who are bullied are bullied because of they way they are perceived by others. You notice how there are a lot of neutral people who nobody bullies?

There are the bullies on one extreme, then there are a lot of neutrals, then there are the bullied on the other extreme. Asking a person who is bullied to hit someone is not solving the problem at all, it is actually contributing to the 'weirdness' factor that made that person bullied in the first place. The people who are bullied are not bullied just because they look physically weak, but because they are giving off the wrong social vibe. Doing something like hitting someone is not addressing the real issue.

To stop a child from being bullied, you need to address the short term problem, and you need to adress the long term problem. The short term problem is that the people need to stop, and the long term problem is that he needs to gain a lot of confidence and properly learn how to integrate himself in a social situation. He needs to learn to assert himself, and not be weak.

The short term solution can be solved without violence. If a person is bullying you, and you just say nothing, just scowl and lean towards the person with your arms swinging free, look straight into the eyes of the people without blinking, speak in a low cold voice, then walk away without looking back you can almost always stop further aggravation. Most bullied people make the mistake of smiling and trying to laugh off the problem, then going into a body posture that says they are defensive, and hopping from foot to foot or fiddling with clothes, and looking down. This encourages the bullies, because you are displaying beta-male behaviour.

The long term solution involves forcing the child into a lot of social activities, so that he learns how to establish and build social hierachies. Also, a lot of physical activity, particular where he can get to dominate, and also team sports where he is working with people less competent than him will also help teach him to assert himself.

Saying somethin like "punch the person" is not only not very clever, it's also practically undoable for most bullied people. Most bullied kids are small wimpy and non-assertive kids. They can't punch anyone. Don't give this pointless advice.

10 points by brianmwang 58 minutes ago 1 reply      
His account of the 9th grader reminds me of the advice to punch out the toughest looking guy in the room on your first day of prison to establish a reputation of unfuckablewithness.
5 points by jbooth 36 minutes ago 1 reply      
I was with this guy until he started talking about mouthing off to a mafia guy in Japan.

Kid stuff is kid stuff, adult stuff is different. That 9th grader had almost certainly never tortured someone with a car battery. Same with the muggers - who's to say that they're sane in the least? What if they're really strung-out and have knives, now you're going to the hospital.

4 points by magicseth 36 minutes ago 0 replies      
It's a really fine line. This type of response can just as easily backfire on you. One punch back can escalate things well beyond the original infraction, the next thing you know, you are in the hospital. Embarrassing someone who fancies themselves the leader of a pack is never a good idea. Even if you escape unscathed one day, the very next day you may be met with an even larger pack of people.

It is this very mindset that perpetuates violence, it doesn't end it. For Sebastian, the line is clear "as soon as someone puts their hands on you," but everyone has a different line. Taunting someone every day for months can push someone beyond their line, and when they push you away out of desperation they have "put their hands on you."

Being strong and standing up for yourself does not require physical violence. Understanding the reason someone is picking on you is perhaps the best way to actually stop it, and perhaps even address the root cause, making the road better for the next person in line. When complaining about the bully in my elementary school, my parents explained to me the social situation that he was brought up in, and how we were so lucky in comparison. I didn't "love" them, but I understood them much better, and learned how to avoid getting in their way. Hitting back wouldn't have solved anything.

2 points by castis 27 minutes ago 0 replies      
In my findings, this method is not near as effective as having something you said get taken way out of context.

I got bullied a little in middle school. However, in a completely unrelated event, I said something with one feeling and someone nearby thought I said it in anger I guess.

Next thing I know, SWAT and local police are at my high school and somehow everyone knows who they're looking for.

Apparently "Really? OMG Im gonna kill her! lol" directly translates to "I'm going to bring a gun to school and murder her".

I was never messed with again and no one asked.

3 points by swombat 43 minutes ago 0 replies      
Seems like Ender's Game 101. Thoroughly agree, and wish I'd had the balls to carry it through when I was bullied as a kid.

My dad gave me this very advice at the time, but I was too cowardly to follow it...

1 point by lhorie 8 minutes ago 0 replies      
>> I had two guys try to mug me the other day in a dangerous area. Bad mistake, doubled one of them over with a kick the stomach and shouted at the other one, YOU WANT TO DIE? BACK DOWN, STAY BACK. He did, he let me walk away while his criminal buddy was doubled over.

Where I come from, the third kid, who was pretending to be a bystander all along, with the gun under his shirt, would've shot you from behind your back.

Just because resorting to violence to deal with bullies works doesn't mean you should go all rambo with actual criminals.

2 points by nadam 30 minutes ago 0 replies      
Good advice generally. Although there are rare very serious cases when even this does not help. There was a mentally ill guy in our primary school who was strong, wild and agressive like an animal. (He has done weight training every day being 11 years old!) He had no respect of his own life, so if someone fought back he would fight until really dangerous levels. The older the guys are the more dangerous this whole thing can get. In an extreme situation the best thing someone can do is to tell everything their parents. The serious bully in our school was first 'met' by the father of a bullied girl and later were fired from the school.
1 point by alexandros 33 minutes ago 2 replies      
This article is the seventh result on Google for "make violence on" (quotes included). Can a native speaker comment on this use?

It sounds odd/interesting to me and given that the rest of the article is well written, this puzzles me quite a bit. I normally associate such uses of 'make' with native speakers of Arabic, which obviously doesn't apply.

4 points by ck2 56 minutes ago 0 replies      
But how do we teach kids when the "authority" puts their hands on them?


2 points by JabavuAdams 54 minutes ago 0 replies      
I would phrase the advice to sound less hair-trigger, but I essentially agree. "Ignore the bully", or "don't fight back" are terrible advice that put the (your) child at risk.

I think where parents get confused is on the individual vs. group distinction. We look at the world, see all the various tribal wars with their counter-attacks and counter-counter-attacks, and erroneously conclude that violence doesn't solve anything.

We're not talking suicide bombs and airstrikes, here. If Alice shoves Billy, and Billy shoves Alice back, there's often no escalation, and no-one else is harmed. The issue is settled, and everyone's still alive and well. This is much better than ongoing bullying.

3 points by dkl 34 minutes ago 0 replies      
I moved around a lot as a kid, so I was the convenient target, too. My 10 yr old is in martial arts and has a green-brown belt. He absolutely loves it. I've told him to only use it as a last resort, but to use it.

I recall being bullied by a rather dull kid when in elementary school. I remember him relentlessly telling me he would kick my ass. I told my Dad and he recommended that if it push came to shove, to just punch him in the face. So, one day the kid came at me and I hit him (don't even remember where). I was never bothered again at that school.

Bullies reign when no one stands up to them.

4 points by krsgoss 41 minutes ago 1 reply      
Does this advice help at all with girls? Girls seemed to bully socially rather than physically when I was in school. What do you tell a young girl who's in a similar situation? "Punch her in the nose?"

I had a similar experience (and resolution) in middle school and I agree with the author's conclusion. But now I have an 8 month old daughter who may experience this type of bullshit one day, and I'm not sure what advice I'd give her just now.

1 point by kenjackson 35 minutes ago 0 replies      
Why don't parents do something? I'd have no problem, as an adult, confronting a kid and telling them that if they touched my son again I'd personally deliver them to juvy where I can make accomodations for buddies they don't appreciate.

And unless they're already hardened gang members, this should work pretty well, and probably breaks no laws. And if they do do it again, live up to your promise, to the extent possible.

If they are hardened gang members, you should probably get your child out of the situation, because fighting back is a losing proposition.

4 points by iwr 48 minutes ago 0 replies      
It's strange how a society supposedly obsessed with safety nonetheless thinks normal to place a child in such an environment, then do everything to prevent them from defending themselves. It's a prison environment, only the inmates did nothing to deserve being there.

The problem could be that kids don't interact much with people outside their age group. They have no reference point of how adults behave. It becomes a sort of Lord of the Flies world.

1 point by dnsworks 12 minutes ago 0 replies      
In 9th grade I threw a bully down a set of stairs, then proceeded to beat him with every bit of energy I had (not much, I was a fat kid). After he got out of the hospital, in casts, he stayed far, far away from me. That was the last time anybody tried bullying me. "God" isn't going to stop the bullies, a good old fashioned ass kicking is.
1 point by zaidf 30 minutes ago 0 replies      
I was bullied quite a bit when I started 1st grade at a new school. Luckily I had two older brothers at the school. A couple times I pointed out the dudes responsible and they would go have a word with them and that'd take care of it.

I guess you get bullied when the other party things they have little to lose and lots(of pleasure) to gain. Soon as you signal they might have something to lose and they believe you they move on to the next victim.

A few times I remember just cursing out the bullies OUT LOUD. I was considered so weak that they never thought I'd do that. Once I did, the bullying stopped.

3 points by Reclix 56 minutes ago 0 replies      
I'd say every situation has an escalating set of responses, and I certainly don't believe that violence is always unacceptable, especially when nonviolent means have failed.

I'd suggest that a large part of why MLK succeeded is because Malcolm X was loudly stating the alternative.

I've never been physically bullied, as I've always been both a dork and an athlete, but I was teased relentlessly early on. My dad's advice was always to ignore, and this just didn't work well enough. That's how I discovered the power of personality - the power to fire back is (sadly) what wins respect of children.

The challenge once you've gained the skill is to reign it in - to be intentional in your response, and to sometimes decide that nonviolence, or silence IS actually the way to go.

2 points by sliverstorm 1 hour ago 1 reply      
I have never quite figured out how I'd teach my kid this. I never had to deal with violent bullies myself (even though I was totally a geek, I kind of made friends with skaters and druggies etc, and I later heard a lot of them respected me) so I have no life-experience with fighting back.

Only time things ever came to blows, the other guy (who struck first) was 8-10 years older than me, muscular and a good 2-3 feet taller, and that is a fight you do NOT fight.

1 point by chrisaycock 19 minutes ago 0 replies      
Michael Lewis had a line in "Liars Poker" about dealing with asshole traders: lift weights and take karate.
1 point by icegreentea 41 minutes ago 0 replies      
We had a discussion on another blog post regarding this book a month ago or something.


2 points by cb33 45 minutes ago 1 reply      
As someone who used to be somewhat of a bully, I think this is the best advice. Bullies pick on smaller kids because they're insecure about themselves and bullying a smaller kid is... well, easy. If a smaller kid makes it difficult for bullies to pick on them (by fighting back), the bully will most likely stop (and move on to another victim).
2 points by paolomaffei 1 hour ago 1 reply      
This can also apply to the business world: As soon as some other company tries to damage you in an unfair way you are supposed to fight.

But like for kids, the other guy can be just too big for you to fight back.

2 points by kapilkaisare 56 minutes ago 0 replies      
Reminds me, oddly enough, of one of the early sequences in Ender's Game. Ender beats a guy to mush, so that it will never happen again.
1 point by pshapiro 54 minutes ago 0 replies      
It isn't real love to "talk it out" with them anyway. If it doesn't bless them and yourself it's not love anyway.

Things as they actually are is the only way that they are in truth.

So the teaching that it's loving them is what's false -- not that love itself couldn't help. In this case, it was a kind of love of oneself to fight back and protect oneself.

1 point by axod 56 minutes ago 2 replies      
Whatever happened to 'just ignore them'. Personally, I think that's always the best policy (Unless you're in imminent danger).

Also can work well in business. If someone is being a pain, just ignore them and don't give them the publicity they're seeking.

An Open Letter To Business People dave.is
72 points by davidbalbert 2 hours ago   34 comments top 9
8 points by grellas 59 minutes ago 1 reply      
This is a nice piece overall but, having seen founders negotiate their splits countless times over nearly three decades, I would add that such negotiations tend to be more nuanced than equal splits in most cases.

Idea people may not be able to proceed without solid technical people but what they do or don't have to give them for their services is always governed by supply and demand. An exceptional technical person who will drive a company will get an equal split (or more) but someone whose skills can be supplied by a good number of people will likely get far less. Strong technical expertise does tend to be hugely important in a typical startup but is only marketable consistent with what people are willing to pay for it in light of other alternatives.

So too with idea people. Abstract ideas may not have much value but many of the best ideas come from those "in the field," i.e., who have worked extensively in a given area and have special insights about how, e.g., customer pain points can be addressed effectively. Such ideas can be incredibly valuable and they do not necessarily come from technical people. They can come from managers, from sales people, or from a broad variety of sources - even from those with a technical background who later moved into sales or management and who combine their skill set with their experience to derive special insights. When people like that want to found a company, they may lack the particular technical expertise to execute on the project but they will know enough about the industry to know where to find the best candidates to fill such a role. That may result in a 50/50 deal but it could easily result in all sorts of splits, even if one of the roles is prominent enough to be called "technical co-founder."

So, as a technical founder, you should push for as large a split as your personal qualities can command but you should not use any arbitrary formula for determining splits. The rule is and always will be to assess the situation based on the real value each person is contributing and this often leads to a wide range of founder splits that are far from equal yet are perfectly suitable for the persons involved.

That said, this again is a fine piece reminding those with technical skills not to sell themselves short in dealing with business people. There are all sorts of hustlers out there who are more than willing to take advantage of you and, if you do not value yourself properly, you will likely fall victim to them. If people really do have valuable things to contribute, however - whether on the business or on the technical side - then the process is not really that adversarial because smart people will know an opportunity when they see it, whether or not they get equal shares in the venture, and they will usually work these things out in a way that is amicable.

7 points by rguzman 1 hour ago 1 reply      
I liked the piece a lot and it is roughly right. However, as a technical co-founder, I think a good measure of a business co-founder is whether he tries to solve the technical problems himself. e.g. by learning a bit of php and hacking something together.

Not only does that show that he's resourceful and scrappy, but it also makes it more likely that he'll be able to talk about the product coherently i.e. understanding and keeping in mind the constraints that software development has. It calibrates his intuition, if you will.

7 points by smanek 1 hour ago 7 replies      
A startup without a business plan isn't a business. It's just some code.

I disagree. Users make it a business - and users don't care if I have a business plan. They just care if the product (i.e., code) makes their lives better.

4 points by terra_t 1 hour ago 2 replies      
Why do we always hear about non-technical cofounders looking for technical co-founders, rather than the other way around?

Is this like some singles bar where 80% of the people are male?

I for one would like to find a hustler who really knows how to hustle.

5 points by alain94040 1 hour ago 1 reply      
Pretty good explanation. A couple of tweaks: 50/50 is a bad split, because it will lead to paralysis, argument, flying chairs, and eventually bankruptcy.

Second, the advice here is to not pitch the idea when you first meet potential technical co-founders. I disagree: I think sharing the same passion is key, so you definitely should tell me that you plan to revolutionize the music industry (a bad example, I know...). Small talk won't get me, the developer, interested.

2 points by mattmaroon 1 hour ago 3 replies      
The problem is you don't need a technical cofounder, you need a good technical founder. Just because someone is at a meetup or on Github doesn't mean they're a good technical cofounder.

Finding a technical cofounder isn't too difficult. If you can't sell your idea to one developer you probably can't sell it to customers. Finding a good technical cofounder is very hard.

2 points by Apreche 1 hour ago 1 reply      
Wrote basically the same thing a month ago.


The one thing that I don't understand is how people are willing to be paid in equity. Do you people not have to pay rent? Are you living in your parents basements with someone feeding you?

In the words of many a Taxi driver "NO! You pay me cash now!"

Lottery tickets don't keep the lights on.

1 point by joshklein 53 minutes ago 0 replies      
The author makes the assumption in this relationship that the technical co-founder is a talented hacker who has read all of Paul Graham's essays, maybe a Steve Blank book or two, and is well connected in the startup tech scene, all while the business co-founder is just some marketing shmuck. The characterization is unfair; there are plenty of marketing shmucks, but they should be compared against socially inept code monkeys, not this superstar technical co-founder (say, the kind that read Hacker News).

A great "business person" doesn't just flip open a roledex and start dialing for dollars once the technical co-founder has laid a magical golden software egg.

And hopefully, a technical and non-technical co-founder can find a way to work together where they don't perceive their partner as a parasitic dead-weight.

1 point by marionogueira 45 minutes ago 0 replies      
btw, a good technical cofounder isn't "just" a good programmer (or even a great one)... actually, he doesn't even have to be the best programmer on the team
Matt Cutts: $1,000 to the 2 best implementations of the recently-hacked Kinect mattcutts.com
91 points by andre3k1 3 hours ago   25 comments top 10
13 points by TomOfTTB 2 hours ago 4 replies      
I don‚t mean to be a downer but I‚m not sure how productive this is. I applaud his wanting to jump start something but this is a huge project.

Think about it. Just because the drivers let your computer see a hand doesn‚t mean your computer can recognize it is a hand. That has to be done in software and doing that will be a massive amount of work. And that's just figuring out it's a hand. Not telling the program what a hand does. Anyone who has used a Kinect on the Xbox knows the software plays a huge part in its execution.

I‚d wager the configuration program alone took Microsoft far longer than the 6 allotted weeks this contest gives.

I‚d much rather see a high profile person like Matt Cutts start a fund for open source development of a Kinect library for Linux and then giving people the time to accomplish something great (it's certainly a project I'd be willing to donate to)

8 points by wccrawford 3 hours ago 1 reply      
I love the sense of community this is building already. Microsoft's initial 'don't hack our hardware!' statement only served to bring more attention to it.

I've even got some ideas for games for it, but of course, I don't have a license to officially program for it, and I don't think it works with the XNA. This means I have a chance to use with with the PC instead, though. If I can just find the time. ;)

6 points by zach 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Wow, that picture and video linked to the article is fantastic. I actually never heard about how the Kinect worked, but once you see that you really get it. I'm a lot more impressed now that I know about the hardware details!
3 points by pak 2 hours ago 3 replies      
Jesus, it was reverse-engineered, not "hacked". Did Linux engineers "hack" into every single piece of hardware they wrote drivers for? The overuse of this term in headlines drives me nuts. It's not like people can drive by your house and break into your XBox by waving their arms. And that's the colloquial meaning, which has sadly displaced the original, more positive meaning.
6 points by thejash 3 hours ago 3 replies      
I really really want to buy one of these now just to write python APIs for it. Anyone else interested in that?
11 points by Zakuzaa 3 hours ago 0 replies      
I was not going to get myself a Kinect but things are changing pretty fast..
2 points by defdac 55 minutes ago 0 replies      
Low discrepancy and well stratified sampling dots it seems. Halton or Hammersley perhaps?
1 point by RBr 2 hours ago 1 reply      
I understand that money is ultimately the answer to my question... however...

Why haven't Microsoft or Sony, or better yet some video game maker we've never heard of, realized that building a platform to encourage "hacking" would make a lot of money. If Apple's App store has thought us anything it's that people want to be engaged on a deep level with devices such as video game consoles.

I must be missing something.

3 points by cyanbane 2 hours ago 2 replies      
I love reading Cutts and I love my Kinect and would love to see exactly what he is asking for, however if a well known MS engineer conducted a contest on discovering/emulating the software* behind Google's search appliance, do you think it would be met with embrace or venom by the HN community?
1 point by BoppreH 2 hours ago 0 replies      
I give it two weeks before the open source demos become cooler than Microsoft's.

Maybe not doing the same things (I remember they have a database of human positions and bone structure), but at least as good looking as.

Or maybe just plain useful for non-gamers.

A zombie keyboard, an app-store rejection, a call from Steve Jobs cascadesoft.net
145 points by harscoat 6 hours ago   58 comments top 20
42 points by viraptor 4 hours ago 5 replies      
I don't get it. The summary is that the guy submitted an application, got rejected, appealed, the appeal process seemed to take too long, he emailed Jobs, Jobs phoned him and told him and "reiterated" (from the post) the app store rules until the guy decided he won't achieve anything.

I'm amazed at how Jobs telling the guy the same thing that he already knew (telling him 2 times actually) somehow made him go to a paragraph about Jobs with a well deserved opinion of quality products.

He still couldn't release the software, he got a "no go" for fixing the situation the way he could, he got absolutely no information about whether the issue will be fixed in the future or not. But that's ok, since Jobs called him? Seriously?

21 points by maxklein 4 hours ago 0 replies      
I once emailed Steve and did not get a reply. A day later, the dude in charge of iTunesConnect called us, and then everyday till the issue was resolved, someone was emailing us daily updates.

I'm exchanged 3-4 emails with Phil Schiller back when there were some scammers on the store. Apple executive is VERY hands on.

18 points by confuzatron 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Steve Jobs appeared one stormy night on my father's farm and helped deliver a breach lamb. He was gone as quickly as he arrived.

Of course there's no email trail...

14 points by sandGorgon 4 hours ago 2 replies      
I am really interested to know the management practices in place at Apple that enable this kind of a personal reaction to even be possible.

It simply cant be that Steve is a very conscientous person (which I'm sure he is) - but also that the infrastructure in Apple allows this.

I run a 13 people shop and I know I will get to a point where I will not be able to look at individual bugs/questions, etc. What kind of triggers, tools and techniques make it possible for an issue to be filtered up the hierarchy ?

Or is it simply because of the any-employee-can-mail-holy-Steve-but-god-help-you-if-it-was-unimportant policy?

3 points by mattmaroon 3 hours ago 2 replies      
Jobs is cleverly using sample bias in Apple's favor for PR reasons here (though perhaps unintentionally). If someone emails Steve and doesn't hear back, they presumably don't write a blog post about it. Yet I suspect you're highly likely to hear about it when someone does get a reply, especially a phone call.

As a CEO you could probably make your customers think you care just by responding to .01% of emails or something like that. If all you have to do is call one guy every few weeks and tell him the same thing your underlings already told him to get this sort of coverage it's probably well worth the time.

4 points by ericb 4 hours ago 0 replies      
I saw "Zombie Keyboard" and thought "what useless app will they think of next?" Then I saw that wasn't what their app was and started daydreaming about how rich I'd be if my "Zombie Keyboard" app took off.

That's the sad part about the app store. The low-price expectations make creating something simple but fad-ish more appealing than making something people want because it is useful. Sigh.

12 points by plusbryan 5 hours ago 1 reply      
I once got a call from Apple's review team from a man named Steve. This news for me is like hearing that the lotto's lucky numbers changed and I just threw away the ticket.
9 points by dinedal 5 hours ago 1 reply      
I wish Steve had promised to fix the bug at some point in the future at least.
9 points by lovskogen 5 hours ago 1 reply      
Can't help but to think 'What are the odds of Apple PR saw this guy was a active blogger and made it part of their agenda to call him?'.
5 points by va_coder 5 hours ago 1 reply      
I'm not an apple fanboy but that's freakin cool.

At work I unfortunately work with some Oracle products. No way in hell would Ellison ever call me up ;)

3 points by wccrawford 5 hours ago 2 replies      
I also get why you shouldn't use private APIs, but when there's a bug this big with no workaround (other than to code everything yourself, apparently) then I think it's a big mistake to reject apps over it... Unless you can promise a bugfix with a timeline.
4 points by cshenoy 5 hours ago 0 replies      
It looks like Ram sort-of capitulated. Granted it was to a request from Steve Jobs and granted he agreed to the no private API policy when he registered as an iOS developer, but it seems like he didn't get Steve to understand his point. I'm glad Steve took the time out to call him to explain (which is pretty awesome) but it seems like it was done just to get Ram to submit his app without too much fuss.
3 points by fragmede 5 hours ago 1 reply      
Wait, so there was a workaround (by not using a modal form), and yet we're here after a round in the app store, a call from the messiah and a blog post.
1 point by RK 3 hours ago 0 replies      
I think that they have a "most fascinating submission story among all our apps" is more a symptom of the larger problems of the App Store than anything else.
1 point by brown9-2 5 hours ago 1 reply      
The blog post doesn't say, but I wonder if at any point the author submitted a bug report about this to whatever bug-reporting tool Apple publishes for iOS developers (assuming they have a public bug reporting tool).
1 point by lepht 3 hours ago 0 replies      
A bit OT, but I'm wondering about this sentence/typo:

> The caller-id, the caller saying ‚Ram, this is Steve‚ and that he was calling from Apple did suggest that it could really be Steve Jobs.

At first I interpreted this to mean that if you get a call from Steve or Apple that they have a custom caller ID display on any iPhone which would be kind of cool and would help validate to the receiver that it is indeed an official Steve/Apple call.

Now I realize this is probably just a typo, but I'm still wondering how the author knew that the call was actually from Apple as he implies.

2 points by bdotdub 5 hours ago 1 reply      
Bummer, the middle phrase is short one syllable that would make it a 5-7-5 haiku
1 point by tomjen3 4 hours ago 0 replies      
So thanks to the guidelines that was supposed to ensure quality in the app store, his users should either deal with a buggy app, or make due without the feature?
2 points by chr15 5 hours ago 2 replies      
Is anyone else utterly surprised that Steve Jobs actually calls developers and responds to emails? Is this a PR stunt, or is Steve genuinely interested in being that hands on? Or both?
1 point by lwhi 3 hours ago 1 reply      
I wonder if Steve calls people who don't have a blog?
Back in June Variety.com Added a Paywall - This Was the Impact quantcast.com
18 points by uptown 1 hour ago   7 comments top 5
5 points by CWuestefeld 12 minutes ago 1 reply      
The chart shows the number of readers. It does not claim to show any change in revenue.

It's true that their decline in readership was about 200x. But is it possible that each of those paid readers makes up for what they've presumably lost from ad revenue? Maybe not, but we've got nowhere near enough information here to draw a conclusion.

3 points by callmevlad 21 minutes ago 0 replies      
I'm wondering how much can be attributed to how Quantcast measures traffic. Compete.com and Alexa, for example, both show a decline, but it's nowhere close to being as dramatic as the Quantcast one.


3 points by jonbishop 29 minutes ago 0 replies      
That's quite the depressing chart. From their site:

"Want more? Register now for FREE!

We offer our readers two articles, columns, photos or videos per month, but you can get three more by completing our free registration."

It's not even a complete paywall - they're giving a couple pages away for free and with free registration, three more. What a rough industry to be in.

1 point by cowboyhero 21 minutes ago 0 replies      
They had a paywall on the site originally years ago. Frankly, I never understood why they removed it. They're a publication, like the WSJ, covering a specific industry to something of a niche audience that will gladly pay for subs.

To me the more interesting story is that someone like Nikki Finke can come out of nowhere and one up them with free content.

1 point by zachster 35 minutes ago 1 reply      
Is this the full impact? Presumably, they wouldn't leave it on if subscription revenue didn't outweigh that lost from advertising.
Proving P!=NP: "...Ryan has taken the first real baby step in decades." computationalcomplexity.org
82 points by amichail 5 hours ago   4 comments top
13 points by chriseidhof 4 hours ago 3 replies      
Could anybody with a more mathematical background explain what this means?
For Cats, a Big Gulp With a Tiny Touch of the Tongue nytimes.com
18 points by hornokplease 1 hour ago   4 comments top 3
8 points by jbail 1 hour ago 1 reply      
Calculating the balance between opposing gravitational and inertial forces is yet another reason why cats are awesome.
1 point by skoob 1 minute ago 0 replies      
It's interesting that this is quite different from how dogs drink: http://bethesignal.org/blog/2009/06/13/how-do-dogs-drink-wat... They scoop up the water with their tongues by curling it backwards.
3 points by sliverstorm 50 minutes ago 0 replies      
The fact that they lap at precisely the right frequency... Darwin's theory is so perfect, and I just figured out how to put in words why it is. feedback.

Feedback really is king.

GNU/Parallel changed my life unethicalblogger.com
49 points by recampbell 3 hours ago   5 comments top 3
13 points by praptak 2 hours ago 1 reply      
"Unlike xargs however, Parallel lets me make use of the many cores that I have access to [...]"

Unlike xargs? That's just plain wrong, see xargs' -P flag.

6 points by chrisaycock 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Previous discussion on GNU parallel:


5 points by ma2rten 1 hour ago 1 reply      
Oh man ! I wish someone had told me this before. Back when i did research for my BSc thesis, I had an 24 core machine and wrote a script to create 24 bash scripts to split up my task which i would than run in parallel.

Sometimes I have the felling that I am wasting time when I check HN too often, but stuff like this makes me think otherwise.

How-to not log personally identifiable information gabrielweinberg.com
13 points by wyclif 1 hour ago   discuss
27bslash6 responds to complaints by posting users personal information on reddit reddit.com
15 points by AgentConundrum 1 hour ago   1 comment top
3 points by wccrawford 14 minutes ago 0 replies      
Man, internet justice is brutal. And fast. I think the only thing he could have done worse was call out Anonymous somehow.
Changing Passwords schneier.com
70 points by yan 6 hours ago   20 comments top 8
12 points by shrikant 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Schneier Fact No. 27[1] seems particularly relevant in light of the [very useful, but preaching to the choir maybe?] advice he's handing out here:

Most people use passwords. Some people use passphrases. Bruce Schneier uses an epic passpoem, detailing the life and works of seven mythical Norse heroes.

No wonder he uses a password manager, eh?

[1] http://www.schneierfacts.com/fact/27

2 points by tptacek 2 hours ago 3 replies      
This advice is back-assward.

The attacker who uses your stolen password is just as likely to be trying it a year from now than he is to be trying it the moment he captures it. Maybe he's not even the person who originally stole it. A stolen password for an account whose password isn't regularly changed is a backdoor that can't be patched or detected. It's actually more valuable in some ways than a rootkit.

This isn't idle punditry. Maybe once a year, I end up on a penetration test that works its way onto internal networks or desktops, and every one of those engagements invariably has a "here's the chapter of the report where we ended the universe" because one person saved a password somewhere a year ago and never changed it.

Yes, attackers will mount active attacks, and yes, attackers will install backdoors. But they will also sweep your machine for textual passwords and then bank them.

There are classes of passwords that don't merit regular changes. Your one-off passwords for sites like Reddit (please, don't share passwords between sites) don't need changing. I'm also not religious about changing single-purpose rarely-changed Keychain-generated passwords.

The rest of them, change at least once a year.

4 points by batasrki 4 hours ago 0 replies      
It's amazing how much of this is alleviated by something like 1Password or LastPass which I currently use. It'll generate a strong random password for me and remember it so I don't have to write it down. Changing passwords is just as easy.
1 point by atleta 43 minutes ago 0 replies      
Actually I think that forcing users to change their passwords doesn't really improve security and it may well decrease it.

Good passwords are hard to memorize and if I'm forced to change it every few months then I can do two things: change it as little as possible (e.g add a number or a character at the end and cycle between them as allowed) or use a weak password (and maybe do the same with it).

Now if one has a lot of accounts and passwords and tries to be safe and use an app like passwordsafe then the ignorant service operators (e.g. my bank...) who force frequent password changes can turn life into a really bad experience forcing us to do password changes every few days on one system or the other (or just force the user to give up on secure passwords).

Now if someone wants to secure their system then they should use two factor authentication. Now that everybody has a mobile phone, basically everybody has a secure token. (I know that mobile phones are not that 'tamper resistant', still they are something that an attacker has to have their hands on. And you'll probably notice if you loose your phone sooner than you would notice your purse.)

2 points by mattmanser 5 hours ago 0 replies      
I thought he might finish off there at the end with key passwords, like the email account that all the change of password notifications go to.

As once that one's compromised, you've pretty much been compromised everywhere on the internet apart from maybe banks that require phone or fax steps for password changes.

2 points by pchristensen 4 hours ago 1 reply      
I use this process: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/09/11b.html

Works even better now that there's an iOS client: http://www.passwordtouch.com/

3 points by smarterchild 3 hours ago 1 reply      
> And two, it's far more important to choose a good password for the sites that matter -- don't worry about sites you don't care about that nonetheless demand that you register and choose a password...

I actively use terrible and crappy passwords for certain sites, when I'm more worried about someone getting the password than someone getting access to my account on that site.

1 point by Kilimanjaro 3 hours ago 2 replies      
You would think changing passwords every month is more secure, when in fact is much less secure for the reasons he explained.

People tend to get tired of remembering passwords so they write it down on a post-it and stick it on the monitor.

How is that for secure?

An umbrella designed using aerodynamic theory to withstand 100km/h winds senzumbrellas.com
117 points by bensummers 8 hours ago   52 comments top 24
17 points by archgrove 5 hours ago 1 reply      
I have one of these. It certainly is much better at resisting the strong winds England can blow than a classic umbrella (which lasts about 15 minutes around here).

Unfortunately, it has two other problems that hamper any recommendation. The first is, as another commenter mentioned, it won't stay closed when collapsed without a fiddly velcro tie. You have to wrap it around the entire umbrella body, which is keen to spring open whilst you struggle with it. With cold, wet fingers this can be tricky.

The second problem is the build quality. Whilst generally OK, within 6 months mine had developed two flaws. It won't stay fully extended, as one of the little clips that pops out on the telescopic handle failed. It thus loves to collapse down to a size suitable for a toddler at any opportunity. The second is one of the canopy support structs popped out and bent, so it doesn't quite hold rigid.

It's a pity that what is otherwise an excellent design is hampered by one poor choice, and some shoddy construction. I don't know if the flaws on mine are isolated, but if that were the case, I'd have expected one flaw at most - not two orthogonal failures. Moreover, given the price, I scoured their website to find support and customer services when it broke. I had no luck whatsoever in finding after sales service, and couldn't return it to the store (it was a gift).

6 points by Luc 4 hours ago 0 replies      
EuroSchirm's 'birdiepal outdoor' is a great extreme-weather umbrella. It's of traditional design, but constructed very strongly with glassfiber etc. Their website sucks, but they have a video somewhere of someone driving over it, taking it under a waterfall and generally abusing it. You can still flip it upside down, but it doesn't harm it, it seems.


EDIT: Here it is on Youtube:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3oyTyWq9_I don't bother unless you are _really_ passionate about umbrella's. I can't believe I've actually put this much effort into this comment...)

14 points by blueben 6 hours ago 2 replies      
"The senz umbrella has been awarded all major design awards in the world."

We have all your awards. If you want them back, you will have to pay us one MILLION dollars!

But seriously, what a strange thing to put in your marketing. Surely you haven't won every design award there is.

16 points by mootothemax 7 hours ago 1 reply      
The senz storm umbrella will withstand 100 km/h winds, or 70 mph if you like

I hope that's a typo. It's one thing to round up 69mph to 70, but quite another to round up 62 to 70. For starters, that gives you over 110kph!

5 points by TravisLS 5 hours ago 0 replies      
I've used one of these in New York for a year or so, and while they stand up well to the wind, there are other design considerations where they're oddly lacking. For instance, on the compact version, the handle is much to small, making it uncomfortable to hold. On the larger versions, the umbrella doesn't stay collapsed, so every time you arrive inside you have to awkwardly fumble to tie the velcro straps around it while it flops open.
5 points by yanowitz 6 hours ago 2 replies      
I was considering purchasing one for Chicago loop weather, but reviews on amazon indicate that if your wind is non-uniform (and in Chicago, it is), the umbrella fails as it constantly tries to turn into the wind (and they tend to be shoddily made). Oh well.
11 points by thingie 8 hours ago 2 replies      
The video doesn't answer the crucial question -- will it still offer some protection from the rain? If not, what's the point, you can just fold it down :-
8 points by joshwa 8 hours ago 1 reply      
What happens when you're not walking directly into the wind? Do you have to continually re-orient the umbrella to point upwind?
2 points by roel_v 5 hours ago 0 replies      
I like mine even though the wind here hardly ever blows so hard that it breaks umbrellas. I like the asymmetry of it, you can hold it off-center (relative to your body) and still be completely covered (when there is no wind and rain is falling down straight from above as happens often here in the Netherlands). Also you don't (usually) poke out the eyes of people you pass in the street.
2 points by micheljansen 2 hours ago 0 replies      
I have one of these and I love it. I wonder why this shows up on HN now though, as it is at least a couple of years old now (the company started in 2005).

The story behind it all makes for much more HN-worthy fare: it was started by students as a spin-off from a University project and is now a successful, profitable company: http://www.senzumbrellas.com/en/how-it-all-started/

2 points by MrMatt 7 hours ago 0 replies      
I have one of these (they're actually pretty good) it reorients so it always faces the wind and the shape gives you more coverage over your back when it's not too windy. Also, it looks awesome.

The handle is small though, so it's a bit uncomfortable when used for a long time.

6 points by webmat 7 hours ago 0 replies      
A new wave of umbrella-induced eye poking is coming our way, when these things turn around to follow the wind.
2 points by tyng 7 hours ago 1 reply      
I always hated the fact that normal umbrellas have their handles in the middle, especially when I'm sharing an umbrella with someone else.

This umbrella solved two problems for me! I'm seriously thinking about ordering one. My only concern is that would one side of the umbrella be significantly heavier than the other side? That'd be a pain to hold it up all the time.

1 point by mtalantikite 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Read this in the New Yorker a while back, sounds like a similar design:


2 points by stcredzero 7 hours ago 1 reply      
I am reminded of an "umbrellas haven't changed in 150 years" conversation in an anime somewhere.
1 point by IChrisI 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Woot sells these for around $20 sometimes. The comments are usually a mixed bag, with some people saying it's really good, and other citing problems such as size, durability, etc.

There are a lot of comments here: http://www.woot.com/Forums/ViewPost.aspx?PostID=4074424

2 points by jarito 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Woot had these on sale and I picked one up. I've used it several times, including some of the more spectacular storms that we get here in Texas and it works as advertised. I also appreciate that the long tail design covers my backpack which usually contains my laptop.
2 points by phillijw 5 hours ago 1 reply      
It may stand up to wind but it doesn't look like it keeps the rain off of you. If you have 100mph winds coming in from an angle you better expect the rain to come in at the same angle too
1 point by JoeAltmaier 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Wow! Love that web page - I didn't have to ready anything at all to totally get the idea.

Now to make my big idea webpage do that...

1 point by harscoat 5 hours ago 0 replies      
[edit] I wonder why was this invented in the Netherlands...
2 points by cdixon 6 hours ago 0 replies      
I have one of these. The problem is it breaks when the wind changes directions.
1 point by mhb 7 hours ago 0 replies      
And you can use it to walk at twice the speed of the wind into the wind. Believe it or not.
1 point by haribilalic 7 hours ago 0 replies      
If I had to face 100 km/h winds often enough that I'd be looking at buying a special umbrella, I'd start wearing a raincoat instead.
2 points by epo 8 hours ago 2 replies      
And you'd probably lose it first day you took it out.
TechStars Launches Ten New Startups In Seattle techcrunch.com
9 points by transburgh 1 hour ago   2 comments top 2
2 points by kenjackson 23 minutes ago 0 replies      
I love the first comment in the story:

"players hilariously give birth to a baby John Stamos, and then raise him over time"

I have been waiting for this for a long time. I can't believe nobody has done this already.

1 point by jdp23 24 minutes ago 0 replies      
The startup scene in Seattle is a lot smaller than in the Valley, but the quality is pretty high. Combine the TechStars list with the First Look Forum finalists from last month (which also include some non-tech startups) and it's an interesting picture of where the action is here.
This week's new programming books anynewbooks.com
33 points by acangiano 4 hours ago   10 comments top 5
2 points by matrix 1 hour ago 0 replies      
I like the concept, but it would be nice to see a better selection of books about the craft of building software, rather than language guides. For example, books along the lines of "Code Complete", "The Pragmatic Programmer", etc.
6 points by nathanwdavis 2 hours ago 0 replies      
I'm pretty excited about 'Seven Languages in Seven Weeks'. Just waiting for the Kindle edition to release.
5 points by mdaniel 3 hours ago 2 replies      
Also, Pragmatic Programmers is offering the 3rd edition of their Pickaxe Ruby book for USD$10 (paper or ebook) http://media.pragprog.com/newsletters/2010-11-11.html

It also says that owners of previous editions get the upgrade for free. I have not yet researched to see if that is their policy across the board, but it's a mighty fine gesture, either way.

3 points by wccrawford 4 hours ago 1 reply      
The problem with listing every new book is data overload.
1 point by shiftpgdn 1 hour ago 0 replies      
If you sign-up for the newsletter why can't it all come in a single e-mail versus a separate e-mail for each category?
Moving Away from NoSQL: Why Size Matters and Small is Better couchone.com
12 points by srsaul04 2 hours ago   1 comment top
3 points by patrickaljord 1 hour ago 0 replies      
> We want to fix the ‚Achilles heel of the cloud‚, so that everyone has their data with them at all times regardless of Internet connectivity.

Isn't that what HTML5 offline storage and indexeddb are supposed to solve? Installing couchdb, spidermonkey, erlang and friends seems a bit overkill in my opinion, especially on a mobile device.

Why are we limited to JS in browsers - would a bytecode standard help? andrewducker.livejournal.com
125 points by AndrewDucker 9 hours ago   140 comments top 27
36 points by silentbicycle 7 hours ago 5 replies      
Before speculating too much about "a bytecode standard", etc., it would probably be helpful to understand virtual machines and instruction sets.

I know web programmers generally aren't big on assembly or writing virtual machines, but an instruction set (group of bytecodes) design and implementation predisposes a processor/VM to certain operations. A VM for an OO language is going to have bytecodes (and other infrastructure) for doing fast method lookup, because it will really hurt performance otherwise. A functional or logic language VM will probably have tail-call optimization, perhaps opcodes specific to pattern matching / unification, and a different style of garbage collector.

Compare the JVM to the Lua or Erlang virtual machines; think about the issues people run into when trying to port languages that aren't like Java to the JVM. Unless people are very deliberate about making a really general instruction set, a "bytecode standard" informed by Javascript could be similarly awkward for languages that aren't just incremental improvements on Javascript. Besides, you can't optimize for everything.

There are a LOT of details I'm glossing over (e.g. sandboxing/security concerns, RISC vs. CISC, the DOM), but I've been meaning to point this out since I read someone saying, "Why do people keep writing more VMs? Why don't we just use the JVM for everything and move on?" It's not that easy.

18 points by tptacek 7 hours ago 6 replies      
Am I missing something, or did we all have a browser bytecode standard that everyone hopped on board with, and it turned out nobody really liked feeding browsers compiled programs after all?
18 points by nix 4 hours ago 1 reply      
My admittedly biased view: I spent two years of my life trying to make the JVM communicate gracefully with Javascript - there were plenty of us at Netscape who thought that bytecode was a better foundation for mobile code. But Sun made it very difficult, building their complete bloated software stack from scratch. They didn't want Java to cooperate with anything else, let alone make it embeddable into another piece of software. They wrote their string handling code in an interpreted language rather than taint themselves with C! As far as I can tell, Sun viewed Netscape - Java's only significant customer at the time - as a mere vector for their Windows replacement fantasies. Anybody who actually tried to use Java would just have to suffer.

Meanwhile Brendan was doing the work of ten engineers and three customer support people, and paying attention to things that mattered to web authors, like mixing JS code into HTML, instant loading, integration with the rest of the browser, and working with other browser vendors to make JS an open standard.

So now JS is the x86 assembler of the web - not as pretty as it might be, but it gets the job done (GWT is the most hilarious case in point). It would be a classic case of worse is better except that Java only looked better from the bottom up. Meanwhile JS turned out to be pretty awesome. Good luck trying to displace it.

SWF was the other interesting bytecode contender, but I don't know much about the history there. Microsoft's x86 virtualization tech was also pretty cool but they couldn't make it stick alone.

18 points by Groxx 7 hours ago replies      
In all honesty... what's the difference?

Turing complete language Turing complete language. Just make something to compile your language of choice into JavaScript, or make a new one (CoffeeScript). Bytecode is just a little more dense, little faster executing, far harder to investigate language than JavaScript, which the browser can compile for added speed anyway.

I prefer my language-of-the-web to be readable, thanks. Then I can find out wtf it's doing. And where you really need speed, native client is just about your only option.

20 points by CodeMage 8 hours ago 4 replies      
I really liked this comment (by khoth): "And once we have standardised bytecode, the next logical step would presumably be to improve performance by creating CPUs that can execute it directly. In 20 years we'll all be back where we started."
1 point by abecedarius 26 minutes ago 0 replies      
I took a whack at this 9 years ago. My code's at http://wry.me/~darius/software/idel and there were other, probably worthier, attempts around the same time and before, like Michael Franz's work with Oberon. Basically: make a low-level VM more or less like LLVM without the machine-dependent semantics and with a compact, easy-to-verify wire format. Apparently PNaCl is working on fixing those infelicities now, or at least the machine dependence.

(I had some fun but decided the obstacles to addoption were too great and we'd end up with x86 in the browser someday. So the NaCl announcement years later amused and gratified me.)

21 points by joubert 8 hours ago 2 replies      
Google nativeclient might be a start... http://code.google.com/p/nativeclient/
17 points by hannibalhorn 8 hours ago 2 replies      
Google is already heading there with native client. They're changing the approach to serving up LLVM bytecode on the server, which is translated to x86 or ARM by the browser prior to execution. For future apps that require performance, it should work well and with Google's weight behind the tech I think it'll be widely adopted.

There's already a version of python that runs in native client, and pretty much anything could conceivably be ported.

3 points by Hoff 6 hours ago 1 reply      
Discussions of technical feasibility aside, getting a sufficiently large installed base to make this interesting is (as usual) the "fun" part; your plan for getting to critical mass against an available and "good enough" solution.

As for previous bytecode approaches to consider, there are the Lisp Machines, or the Burroughs B5000 Algol box, or the EFI byte code (EBC) interpreter and the EBC I/O drivers, or UCSD pCode, or all the gonzo things you could do with the VAX User Writable Control Store, the JITs underneath Java and Lua and other languages, or...

And HTTP is printable, which means you're working within character-encoding constraints or with escapements.

There are the not-inconsequential security requirements.

And then there's the question of how a provider might make money with this, if you're not undertaking this effort for free.

Have at...

3 points by tlrobinson 5 hours ago 0 replies      
I'd take it even further and implement the various web standards on this VM. That way when HTML6 or CSS4 comes out you don't need to wait 4 years for everyone to upgrade their browser, you just download it automatically the first time it's used.

This is sort of taking Cappuccino/Objective-J's principle of "shipping the runtime" to the extreme.

2 points by ssp 6 hours ago 0 replies      
It's not a bad idea.

In fact, why not take it a step further and make a stand-alone client that only executes the byte code? It would be different from Java for two reasons:

(a) The bytecode format could be much simpler if it weren't tied to a particular language (no type system, no objects, maybe not even a garbage collector). If the bytecode was similar to a real CPU architecture, it would be possible to target it from LLVM.

(b) There would be no humongous standard library to install, because it could just be downloaded on demand. With almost all of the library living on the server side, application authors could avoid a lot of the usual compatibility nightmares with different client implementations each one with its own bugs and workarounds.

2 points by Detrus 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Maybe browser makers could expose a few lower level constructs in JS to make efforts like CoffeeScript, Objective-J and GWT easier?

That could be a short term solution. Long term we have to hope that LLVM and NaCl pick up steam.

But many languages for the same tasks will create fragmentation. Right now there is a big pool of developers proficient in JS. They even use the same libraries! The libraries are where a lot of productivity gains come from. The web became an "easy" platform to develop for. With fragmentation that could be lost.

CoffeeScript is interoperable with JS, easy to pick up because it's mainly a cleanup, but Objective-J and GWT are too far out. GWT needs a reworked JQuery, called GQuery.

So there are these economic considerations that are probably more important than language preference.

7 points by chrisaycock 7 hours ago 2 replies      
Whenever I hear "standardized bytecode", I think of Parrot:


2 points by jallmann 4 hours ago 1 reply      
I might be missing something here, but this implicates a few things:

You won't be writing code in the browser anymore. Otherwise you'd have fragmentation where the user doesn't have the proper interpreter installed, and a never ending stream of "language downloads" which might be cool to devs but horribly impractical for end users.

Because we're not writing in the browser anymore, we'd be back to offline compilation and static code generation. I suppose it'd be possible to JIT the bytecode (assuming that current Javascript optimizers work on the IR; I don't know enough to qualify this any further). From my casual browsing of LtU, it seems that tracing JITs in particular may offer optimizations dificult to achieve with static bytecode compilation, particularly in identifying hot spots. But the more I think of it, that's a non-issue because you're still compiling to bytecode and JITing from there.

This feels very Java-ish to me. If you really want to script the browser in another language, compiling to Javascript (a'la GWT) would essentially do the same thing.

2 points by cpr 3 hours ago 0 replies      
No, it wouldn't help at all: let me point to the overwhelming success of standards (XML, HTML, Javascript, CSS, Postscript) that are character-based.

Think of Javascript as a (human-readable) virtual machine layer itself, below which the implementation is free to do as it pleases as long as it meets the JS standard semantics.

4 points by alexmchale 5 hours ago 1 reply      
It's an interesting theory, but ultimately irrelevant. The thing is that there are SO MANY people working right now to make JavaScript incredibly fast. It's not hard to imagine a future where JavaScript is the fastest reasonable way to write software -- simply because it's the language that has the most R&D going for it.

Did I say future? Oh, hello NodeJS.

I don't envision that we'll be writing JavaScript itself forever -- but rather a super-syntax on top of it that compiles down to JS. CoffeeScript is the first generation of this kind of programming language.

I do, however, believe that for the foreseeable future, JavaScript will become the lingua franca of day-to-day programming.

3 points by stevecooperorg 8 hours ago 1 reply      
I'd be really interested in seeing this develop. Define a bytecode interpreter (JSVM?) and push bytecode into it. Performance may be god-awful, but you'd be free to use whatever language you fancy.

Parchment is an example of the approach, implementing the z-machine VM in javascript. http://code.google.com/p/parchment/

3 points by pedrocr 8 hours ago 2 replies      
I tried to make this point in this submission:


The fact that it also ranted about Javascript shifted the discussion though

1 point by amix 7 hours ago 3 replies      
Having a standard bytecode would make it much harder to steal code which is much needed as web and mobile applications shift towards using lots of JavaScript.

Currently it's way too easy to steal everything since the whole source is exposed. You can obfuscate JavaScript and CSS, but the main semantics will still be there and someone that's interested will still steal your code (this has happend twice to us, even if all of our JS is obfuscated using Google Closure...) The same thing could happen with bytecode, but their takeout would not be maintainable. Obfuscated JavaScript is still maintainable, since the structure and semantics are largely there.

4 points by ithkuil 8 hours ago 0 replies      
It would improve script parsing speed but perhaps hinder the evolution of internals of the interpreters. Of course engines could always retranslate this standard bytecode in another internal representation and jits.
12 points by watt 8 hours ago 1 reply      
Do you remember Internet Explorer with VBScript?
2 points by AndrewDucker 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Is JS a good bytecode? Is compiling to it from Java about as efficient as compiling to a bytecode would be?

If so (within an order of magnitude, I'm not fussy), then that's awesome - I hadn't realised that things were so efficient.

1 point by adamzochowski 5 hours ago 0 replies      
But you can run different languages inside a browser.

Activestate had Perl running inside browser:

  <script language="PerlScript">
$window->document->write('Hello world!');

Also you can run VBScript. I have seen code that avoid javascript confirm() and tries to check first if it can use VBScripts msgbox function, just so it can provide 'yes'/'no' buttons. Aka:

  function confirmVB (text)
confirmVB = msgbox ( Text , VBYesNo )
end function

and then javascript

  function confirmYesNo(txtText)
if (window.vbSupported)
return confirmVB(txtText);
} else {
return confirm(txtText + " (ok = yes, cancel = no)" );


1 point by kevinburke 1 hour ago 0 replies      
If bytecode became the standard it would further obscure scripting code and make it tougher to read other people's code.
2 points by kqueue 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Just translate it to javascript.
1 point by snissn 4 hours ago 1 reply      
Microsoft's silverlight plugin allows for embedding python and ruby in the browser: http://www.silverlight.net/learn/dynamic-languages/
-2 points by logancautrell 7 hours ago 2 replies      
I believe you are looking for http://nodejs.org/
Four Worthless Samsung Galaxy Tab Reviews and One Useful brooksreview.net
30 points by showngo 4 hours ago   11 comments top 3
2 points by InclinedPlane 16 minutes ago 0 replies      
Most tech journalism (online and off) is terrible. Often nothing more than rehashing press releases spattered with some superficial observations. If it still gets views and ad dollars why work harder?
1 point by ZeroGravitas 6 minutes ago 0 replies      
If I cared that much about typing, then I'd probably be thinking about using my favourite 3rd party Android keyboard, which renders a review of the included keyboard(s) moot to some degree.

I'd also question whether feeling "like a total dorkface while typing" is classed as a usability issue.

8 points by rbarooah 4 hours ago 4 replies      
it's also curious that some of them (notably Gizmodo) found the software to be a complete mess, whereas other found it to be nearly as slick as Apple.

Is this journalistic bias, or is there a background process or bug that was affecting some reviewers and not others?

Black Hat Recruiter Tactics nahurst.com
7 points by conesus 1 hour ago   3 comments top 3
3 points by tbgvi 48 minutes ago 0 replies      
A friend just had this happen at his consulting company:

"Discrediting an employee's current company - Black hat recruiters will contact an employed potential candidate and tell them that their current company is in a precarious financial state and offer to find the employee another job. Black hat recruiters will even do this to employees of their own clients."

He let one of his employees go and they went to a recruiter to find a new job. Next thing you know, everyone at the company was getting called by him saying they were in financial trouble and that he could find them work.

A few days later he calls my friend up and says "I know you've been losing a few employees, I think I have some good candidates if you're hiring."

From my dealings with recruiters, this is almost standard practice.

1 point by stuartk 8 minutes ago 0 replies      
I'm based in the UK, and last year spent a couple months dealing with recruiters whilst trying to find a new position.

I dealt with several companies, and got several job interviews. All the positions were as described, and I never got any nasty shocks.

I may just have been lucky, but is anyone from the UK coming across these shady recruiter tactics, or is the problem US centric?

1 point by gunmetal 40 minutes ago 0 replies      
I thought this would be about getting a job doing black hat programming...bummed when it wasn't
My First Open Source Project: A Two Week Chrome Extension joshholat.com
29 points by joshholat 4 hours ago   4 comments top 3
1 point by sayrer 24 minutes ago 0 replies      
random code comments on content_script.js:

The indentation is crazy (subjective). Use spaces not tabs, choose 2 or 4 spaces. I prefer two, but don't really care.

there's a lot of repetition:
All of the textboxes could be initialized with a function that took key/value pairs for attributes. They are all set to float right.

don't write stuff like document.getElementById("popOver") over and over, it's ugly. Do it once and assign it to a local variable. This is for style, not efficiency.

I didn't read the getTextSelection() function thoroughly, but in my experience, stuff that looks like that never works quite right. Attacking date inputs is tough, and will probably require a separate, tested library.

4 points by WesleyJohnson 3 hours ago 1 reply      
Kudos for "shipping" something. That is the hardest part sometimes. As per your request for feedback (though I wouldn't say I'm smarter than you), some thoughts:

1) The link to your github repo is broken on your blog post.

2) In your manifest.json, you're setting permissions to "tabs", "www.google.com", "http://*/* and "https://*/*. If I'm not mistaken, the urls listed in the permissions field are for urls you'd like your extension to be able to call out to when doing AJAX requests, posts, etc. Enabling your app to make cross-site request to every domain, when you really only need google.com for the calendar, might throw up a red flag to more security-conscious users.

3) You're injecting a blank css document into every url the user visits. I would remove this unless you're planning on adding some styles into the css file.

4) The only other thing I see is more preference: You're doing a lot of work with the browser's dom api to create elements in your content script. Since you're already including jQuery in your extension, it would be trivial to inject the jQuery.js file into the page via your content script and use the power of jQuery to create your dom elements in far less code. Of course, there is nothing wrong with doing it in using raw JavaScript since it's targeted at a single browser and you don't need to worry about being cross browser compatible.

Thanks for posting, I'm always curious to see how other extensions are put together and might take away some ideas on interacting with google services.

1 point by jessor 52 minutes ago 0 replies      
Very nice, this is quite helpful. Thank you!

I just noticed this on last.fm, you may want to add z-index: 9999; to your "popOver" styles to fix problems where sites give their logos a z-index. Also, I'm missing a close/cancel button. Lastly, adding support for last.fm's format ("Saturday 22 January 2011") would be sweet.

Firefox 4: OpenType font feature support mozilla.org
13 points by mgunes 2 hours ago   2 comments top 2
1 point by alanh 50 minutes ago 0 replies      
Fantastic :)

(Demo is a bit odd, though ‚" it won‚t let me use the backspace key to navigate back, no matter where I click.)

1 point by alexknight 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Great news for typography lovers.
A quick review of btrfs apenwarr.ca
46 points by rcfox 6 hours ago   11 comments top 3
10 points by pixelbeat 5 hours ago 0 replies      
The standard cp since coreutils 7.6 supports the --reflink option. This e.g. will copy a file with CoW if possible, but fallback to a standard copy if not:

  cp --reflink=auto src dst

I did a quick summary of how reflinks relate to symlinks and hardlinks at http://www.pixelbeat.org/docs/unix_links.html

3 points by kia 3 hours ago 2 replies      
The funny thing is that BTRFS is developed by Oracle. ZFS was developed by Sun. Now when Oracle bought Sun they have two more or less competing filesystems. What are they going to do about this? Are they going to make ZFS GPL or cancel the development of one of these?
3 points by apgwoz 4 hours ago 1 reply      
> all I know is it's not in the 2.3.36 Linux kernel, but btrfs is, so btrfs wins.

I've been out of the Linux kernel loop for ages now, but isn't 2.3.36 over 10 years old? Did they change the naming convention such that development kernels are 2.3 again? If so, why? Or, am I completely missing something?

The humble programmer... utexas.edu
13 points by kamechan 3 hours ago   4 comments top 2
2 points by bwooceli 1 hour ago 0 replies      
"I had to make up my mind, either to stop programming and become a real, respectable theoretical physicist ... or become a programmer"

Humbling to think about how far we have advanced and the shoulders of the giants we stand on. The alternatives at my disposal are not in the same league.

Hack and Tell - The First One blip.tv
7 points by apgwoz 1 hour ago   discuss
Lisp Web Server From Scratch using Hunchentoot and Nginx zaries.wordpress.com
61 points by hvs 7 hours ago   13 comments top 5
4 points by qjz 2 hours ago 1 reply      

  hunchentoot_stop ()
echo -n "Stopping Lisp Hunchentoot Server process..."
echo ""

# 6200 is the port to signal end of lisp process
(telnet 6200 &) > /dev/null
(sleep 7)

Surely, there must be a better alternative for shutting down the process. Telnet? Really?

10 points by rickmode 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Common Lisp may be worth another look. I've been loving Clojure for the past few months but this looks promising.

Quicklisp looks especially nice, hopefully solving the packaging and dependency situation.

10 points by dragonquest 6 hours ago 1 reply      
A tutorial using Quicklisp :) its so nice to see a flurry of activity around it. It seems it was the shot in the arm much needed for CL.
1 point by kenjackson 52 minutes ago 1 reply      
Can you really saying that this is from "scratch" when using substantial prebuilt components? Isn't that like saying, "cookies from scratch using Betty Crocker cookie dough"?
1 point by sedachv 34 minutes ago 0 replies      
This is way too much work just to get a web server set up.
Copyright vs. 3D printing arstechnica.com
25 points by moshezadka 5 hours ago   23 comments top 7
1 point by clistctrl 9 minutes ago 0 replies      
I would assume it would be almost exactly the same as digital media works today, while it is best to manufacture things in mass quantities a CD of the machines components will be shipped with the dish washer. The opening of the box will imply acceptance of the licensing agreement for the machine. An alternative, is you get access to the washing machine support site with the warranty number included. You would be purchasing the right to the design, and maybe 1 working copy of a part at a time.

if we ever got to the point where it makes more sense for you to manufacture the entire product at home, then the concept would be the same. You are purchasing the rights to manufacture 1 working copy. If you give the files to another person who uses them, technically they are breaking the law.

Of course I think this is all kind of ridiculous. However the only solution I can think of to combat piracy is to crowd source the funding to the creation of new plans, and release the product in the public domain.

6 points by kiba 4 hours ago 1 reply      
I think we're finding out the absurdity of copyright and patents by forcing these kind of concepts to face the redutio ad absurdum of the day, which are technologies like 3D printing.

On the other hand, the past is full of interesting example of PATENT FAIL like Whitney's failure to enforce the cotton gin, but he got rich with producing munition for the US army, while at the same time inventing the concept of interchangeable parts.

We saws that American writers hating their competitors from England because of the massive piracy of British literature leading domination in the American literacy market. Some English writers managed to make more money from the American than he could collect via some amount of royalty years. It was only when large publishing house finally change their tune that the American finally recognize British copyright.

We also saw James Watt's partner using the parliament to extend patents for Watt's steam engine invention. This waste to tremedous wasteful effort from Watt suing various people for violating his patents. In reality, Watt was just one of the many steam engine inventors, who hampered other steam engine inventors' ability to make a living and build on top of his work. He also ironically got hampered by some other guy's patent, forcing him to use inferior design for his steam engine.

5 points by steveklabnik 4 hours ago 1 reply      
This whole copyright vs 3D printing thing is interesting, but the bigger, more important battle right now is actually patents vs. 3D printing.

The entrenched players in the industry have large patent portfolios, and this hurts the ability of projects like the RepRap to actually make improvements. We probably could have had all of these kinds of projects years ago, but the patents are only now starting to run out...

6 points by alanh 4 hours ago 1 reply      
This & P2P mesh ‚internet‚ are Doctorow‚s favorite topics, if his stories are any indication
2 points by wazoox 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Patents and copyright were a tremendous progress back in the 1700s when you need a "privilege" from the King to undertake about anything. Nowadays they're just some sort of fossilized roadblock from the past. Here's another fine example of this sorry state of the matter.
1 point by bld 22 minutes ago 0 replies      
1 point by tbrownaw 1 hour ago 1 reply      
Next step: automated home chemistry setups that turn near-arbitrary feedstock containing the right elements into soap, food, shampoo, beer, plastic resin, ...
Is this the Google Nexus S? pocketnow.com
7 points by mcxx 1 hour ago   4 comments top 3
1 point by peregrine 16 minutes ago 1 reply      
I will never buy another Samsung device again. This is a personal antidote but here it goes.

I had the Samsung Galaxy S from T-Mobile and it was -the- worst phone I've ever owned. Horrible interface, felt like plastic, and to top it off GPS did not work. When I say not work, it would hard lock the phone whenever you tried getting any sort of location and silent crash it. This isn't an isolated issue either, several people posted on forums describing the same issues. Just think if Apple released a product with a bad GPS...

It got so bad I contacted T-Mobile and after getting to a specialist they replaced my phone no questions asked with a G2 and I couldn't be happier.

This phone looks like it has the same horrible plastic back panel and likely the horrible product and support the Galaxy has.

1 point by Mongoose 14 minutes ago 0 replies      
I don't understand the trend in colossal Android phones. I get that having a bigger screen is nice, but it seems to me that if the phone doesn't fit comfortably in your pocket, then you're doing it wrong.
5 points by marklabedz 1 hour ago 0 replies      
While I'll be waiting for a review or two before buying, I'm happy to see another vanilla Android device coming (hopefully).
Teens Find Innovative Ways to Control Their Facebook Presence allfacebook.com
42 points by skm 7 hours ago   23 comments top 8
16 points by raganwald 5 hours ago 1 reply      
I'm just speculating, but if everyone in your close circle of friends does this, then FB might start feeling like IM on steroids. You can only see people who are online. When they're offline, all traces of them vanish.
8 points by albertsun 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Wish people would link to original sources more often. Come on this is HN, we don't need or want the extra layer of gloss for this.


10 points by dolinsky 5 hours ago 2 replies      
What came to my mind when I read this was the concept of pre vs post moderation. I find myself viewing posts to my wall in a very timely fashion, almost immediately after I receive an email from facebook letting me know that I have a new post on my wall from a friend. The purpose of doing so is more so I can moderate what the individual has posted on my wall and much less because I am so interested in the immediate consumption of that post. I would love an option on facebook to place many public actions in a pre-moderation queue...tagging me in a photo, posts on my wall to name two. In the absence of those tools, the idea of always deactivating on logout seems like an inconvenient but possible alternative to close that time gap.
7 points by DeusExMachina 5 hours ago 1 reply      
I use a different way to keep people away from my wall, that is as effective, but less work.

I have a whitelist (a list of friends) that sets who has access to my wall. So, when I accept friendship from someone, this new connection does not have access to my wall and private photos straight away. I must put him explicitly to the whitelist.

I fing lists a very good tool to set who sees my wall, pictures and info, and even to set who sees what on my wall (more personal posts are just visible to a subset of the whitelist).

4 points by wipt 6 hours ago 3 replies      
Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems really pointless. What would be wrong with friends browsing your content when your not around? As if you knew they were accessing your profile and what-not anyways. The only way I could see this as being useful would be to keep friends from posting inappropriate material - but then setting filters/blocking would be more sensible.
1 point by ryanwanger 2 hours ago 2 replies      
Am I not using Facebook like everyone else is? I've never had anyone post anything inappropriate on my wall, or tag me in a photo I'd rather not be tagged in. If it ever happens, I'm removing that person as a Facebook friend. Not sure why it needs to be more complicated than that.
1 point by Jabbles 7 hours ago 1 reply      
Although whitewalling will prevent users of FB from accessing your data, FB will probably retain it, as we have seen them do with pictures: http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2009/07/are-those-photos-rea...
1 point by haribilalic 5 hours ago 0 replies      
The downside is that no one can add you while your account is deactivated. Maybe that's an upside?
Android App Development in Scheme androidscheme.blogspot.com
45 points by fogus 7 hours ago   2 comments top 2
3 points by rickmode 5 hours ago 0 replies      
So is the magic here, over Clojure, that Kawa uses less ephemeral garbage, or is it doing Dalvic bytecode generation, or is it the size of the dependent runtime libraries, or ...?
2 points by zitterbewegung 7 hours ago 0 replies      
There are attempts for SISC scheme to work on the android also
List GitHub projects using JavaScript aboutcode.net
7 points by andrewdavey 2 hours ago   1 comment top
1 point by sofuture 37 minutes ago 0 replies      
What an awesome little hack!
       cached 11 November 2010 21:59:01 GMT