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Facebook is an attack on the open web daringfireball.net
1282 points by tambourine_man  10 hours ago   337 comments top 76
Tossrock 9 hours ago 23 replies      
I deactivated my Facebook account several months ago, and it's been about 90% great, 10% frustrating. It's great for all the obvious reasons (less timesuck, less compulsion to endlessly scroll your life away, no notification interruptions).

The frustrations are real, though. Primarily it's around events and photos. There are some communities I participate in that regularly organize events through Facebook, and now I don't really get invited to those anymore. It's also harder to organize events where you casually invite people you don't know as well.

It's also occasionally annoying not being able to dig up a certain photo you wanted for reference. Even if you have a copy of the photo somewhere, if you don't have it hosted online then you can't really bring it up to show it to someone.

Still, frustrations aside, it's 90% great, and I recommend everyone try it for themselves.

MachinShinn- 9 hours ago 13 replies      
I'm baffled by some of the comments here... Is it so difficult for you guys to just have a facebook account that you don't check in on? You can still sign into random sites that require it that way, arrange meetups, etc but without 'scrolling your life away'

I expect people like me who spend most of their day on the computer to have at least as much digital self discipline as I have, but perhaps that's a poor assumption to make...

adtac 9 hours ago 6 replies      
You've ever been to one of those pages that embed Facebook's comment engine? Yeah, those are the worst. I did some analysis on a random page with just three Facebook comments. Requests to Facebook's servers accounted for 1.5 MB of the 2.4 MB tranfered by the ENTIRE page. 87 network requests, 35 javascript files injected and it didn't even load all the comments! (I had to click on a "Load more comments" button to load the rest of the comments.)

Why the hell do you need 37 javascript files and 1.5 MB to load three comments?

(Shameless plug to my own open source, lightweight and tracking-free comment engine alternative to Facebook, Disqus and the rest: https://github.com/adtac/commento)

tuna-piano 9 hours ago 3 replies      
I posted this comment a few weeks ago, but this seems super relevant to extend the author's point. I agree that Facebook is a walled garden. But in the developed world, Facebook is just part of the internet that people use. However, in some parts of the developing world, Facebook is the only internet people use.


Facebook's dominance is even more pronounced in parts of the developing world. I've met people in Asia (Myanmar and Nepal) who have just accessed the internet for the first time in the past 12-24 months (through their Android smartphones).But they don't know the true internet - they only know the internet through the Facebook app. They use it like we use Google and web browsers.

To them, Facebook is the internet. They don't have email accounts. They don't use the browser. They don't search the web. I met someone in a small town who never even used the maps feature. I tried to think of what value the true internet might bring them, but when I suggested that "you can search for news and read other things", the response was that they already did that with the Facebook App.

One guy handed me his phone, so I could add myself as a friend on his Facebook. While I started typing my name, I noticed his search history... and to him, Facebook was even a substitute for what people in the USA might use Incognito mode for!

I would call Facebook their internet portal, but it's not really a portal to anything - Facebook is just the entire internet to them.

Buzzfeed (yes, Buzzfeed) did an excellent writeup of Myanmar, that mirrors what I saw there:https://www.buzzfeed.com/sheerafrenkel/fake-news-spreads-tru...

Nobody asks, they dont care about the email, he said, explaining that most dont know that creating an email address is free, and easy. No one is using that. They have Facebook.

tobyjsullivan 9 hours ago 6 replies      
Not everything on the internet needs to be public (or part of the "open web" as the article calls it). Facebook is a fantastic place for web content that isn't meant to be public.

This idea of posting "public content" on Facebook is inherently flawed. I agree with the article on that much.

However, what I haven't figured out yet is if this is actually an evil-Facebook issue or just a user issue. Is Facebook actively encouraging this web breaking behaviour or is it a "mis-use" of what the tool originally intended (e.g., a safe place to post content/blog/etc. with privacy restrictions)?

Cozumel 8 hours ago 1 reply      
I think this is more an indictment that people don't actually know how to use FB.

YOU control what you want to see and who you interact with, spending to much time there? Take charge of your own life and click off. Seeing something you don't want to see? Hide it. It's not rocket science.

Personally I get a great deal of value from it. It's a tool like any other, but you have to know how to use it.

macawfish 9 hours ago 0 replies      
Amen. There are dozens of very good reasons for righteous anger toward Facebook, and only a handful are in this article. But just those are enough. And enough is enough.
ArchReaper 9 hours ago 4 replies      
I'm no Facebook fanboy but this article feels like a "why does my square peg not fit into their round hole" type of complaint. Facebook is a social network, not a public blogging platform.

Here is my interpretation of the complaints. Please point out what I am missing.

>It's impractical...

Square peg round hole.

>It's supporting their downgrading and killing the web...

Facebook posts being inherently (mostly) simple text is 'killing the web'? I don't buy it.

>Facebook might go out of business.

Just a generic SaaS complaint. Nothing unique to Facebook about this.

Am I missing a core argument here?

unabst 7 hours ago 2 replies      
They've been openly attacking the open web since day one. I think the problem now is that they've been too successful.

Zuckerberg was on to something. He saw the web connecting pages, but not people. So he created a web connecting people and now it has grown to what it is. With both MySpace and Google+ practically buried, Facebook has no competition.

We desperately need an alternative, and not just one for the sake of not being facebook, but something that works. The open web needs a way to connect people.

irrational 9 hours ago 3 replies      
I have a feeling that Facebook will be on the decline. My teenagers and early-20 year-olds and their friends (not just local, but all over the US) think Facebook is for old people. I actually heard a 16 year old recently giving a speech where he mentioned Snapchat Stories, then, as an aside, said, "That's like Facebook or Pintrest for you old people."
bad_user 6 hours ago 0 replies      
I tried deleting Facebook once, but I've got family there and ... the big problem is that I haven't gotten my time spent online back.

I'm on Twitter, I'm on Hacker News, I'm on Reddit, I'm on Gitter, I send/receive dirty jokes on WhatsApp, etc. Plenty of opportunity to waste time, no need for FB to be in the picture at all. I've been composing this stupid message for the past 5 minutes.

But I'm using Facebook less and less. For me the "open web" is a necessity, not a moral high ground or anything like that. I don't like opening Facebook blog posts because Facebook sucks for blog posts. TFA mentions the Internet Archive or Google not indexing articles. Hell yeah, those are really good concerns.

Also, forget the open web ... how about the fact that if you give them permissions to access your photos, on iOS at least, they are uploading your photos to their services for making photo collages, without you explicitly allowing this.

I know this because I opened the app a week ago and I was proposed a collage with animated transitions and music in the background, titled "Your Sunday evening in Bucharest", that couldn't have been processed on my phone - especially since iOS restricts background activity, plus it would be pretty bad for battery life.

And I freaked out, so now Facebook is gone from my phone. Article mentions an all out assault on the open web. Sure, but it's also an all out assault on people's privacy.

I was 7 when Ceauescu was shot and communism fell in 1989 and before that paranoia was at an all times high. People were afraid for example that their phones were tapped and that their neighbours were listening. Which was in fact true, but oh boy, that's nothing compared with what happens today.

joshbaptiste 9 hours ago 2 replies      
ah a "Why FB is evil" article, here come the slew of HN'ers to proclaim their deletion of FB years ago. I myself have no issues with the social network, I keep up with friends, family and it isn't a time suck for me anymore than HN.
hobarrera 1 hour ago 0 replies      
That popup that takes up a third of the page is ridiculous (I actually think it's a bit more on my screen).

Whenever I get a link to facebook for something I sigh, because that sort of stupid, hostil UX won't get them anywhere.

If people wanted an account, they'd have one. It's not like visiting the link is going to be my first time ever hearing of facebook, and that's probably true for 99% of the people visiting one.

kirse 9 hours ago 1 reply      
All this open-web bitching sounds oddly familiar from back when AOL was a tech monstrosity with nearly everything inside its walled-garden. Facebook is basically just a worldwide version of AOL, and plenty of people are tiring of it, just as they tired of AOL's dialup shenanigans and obnoxious floppy disk marketing.

And Facebook, too, will eventually crust away when the underlying tech improves (universal 5G? who knows?) and the next Steve Case / Mark Zuckerberg visionary builds the next generally-centralized service for most internet users. But the open web will survive just fine.

torgoguys 4 hours ago 0 replies      
I LOVE Facebook, even though I never use it.

Before FB, my email was clogged with trivial crap that family members and aquaintances forwarded to everyone in their address book, including me. Now that never happens. Based on everyone else's complaints, it sounds like that stuff has moved to FB leaving my inbox a much more useful place.


wehadfun 9 hours ago 1 reply      
The popover things pisses me off as well. For a company like facebook to use such an annoying thing to get people to subscribe seems immature.
cwyers 9 hours ago 4 replies      
The open web is an attack on the average user. It's unremittingly hostile as a place to go to if you aren't part of the culture that spawned it. Facebook does a very poor job of sheltering people from the worst of the open web, but it's about a billion times more bearable than the open web scaled up to modern adoption rates would be.
alkonaut 7 hours ago 0 replies      
People should just use Facebook for what it's good at, for example event planning. In a social context Facebook is often the only social platform "everyone" is on - that's a killer feature. No matter how good a competing specialized app is - if you e.g invite people by email it's not even close to the power of Facebook.

People (and corporations) should STOP using all the other features and the web will be a much better place. Don't put articles on Facebook like a blog. It's not a blog. Don't make Facebook your only site for your restaurant. A static html page with your address and opening hours is better. And whatever you do, don't ever click a facebook ad or "like" a company on Facebook.

guest 1 hour ago 0 replies      
[WARNING if you do not like rants stay away]

First off, the open net is dead, people not giving a fuck killed it when they simply said yet to the shitty deals the unscrupulous companies offered. Those tech savvy should have lead the way away from these sites to alternatives - that didn't happen.If that wasn't enough the knowledge of EchelonV killed it. People will never again act truly honestly on the net, which hopefully will offset any short sighted plans google and NSA has to premeptively steer public opinion.

The last real breath was drawn as people kept on using google and that breath was drawn precisely when google "modified" their algorithm to kill off private sites who came in high on rankings.Since then any site that has arisen to challange google seems to have magically have been killed or taken over (suddenly swapping to using google coding for unexplained reasons). Oh to mention a few; scroogle, qwant, lycos, zapmeta, qwant, wn, millionshort, gigablast, xirkle...You can still search through the old altavista pile if u want but yeah. Most other motors gives u a shitstorm of companies that you do not care for before you can read private sites off enligthened people who strive to improve x thing.

The next terryfying thing is as what happens when large sites get taken over and the large libraries of knowledge falls into informal hands or simply disappears (IMDB boards to mention a recent setback, and i meant the positive discussions not the large clusterfks of idiots and astroturfers et al).

And of before i forget - as someone who saw through FB before it took off (previous avid user of ICQ, AIM, newb at IRC etc) i fucking told you (if any of those i actually told would stumble across this).

Localised meshnets could have been the future (with "netbrowsers" as the tool to reach em), though with the thought of all that information being in the hands of normal people governments are "finally" reacting and starting to spread fibre as far as i know through some of europe (scandinavia) which could effectively kill that effort.So start taking political action for a free future of information \/.

niftich 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Look, there's no dispute that Facebook is an assault on the 'open web' because it's a walled garden where the data only flows in. In fact, on the HN thread for Gruber's previous post about Google's AMP, I defended [1] some aspects of AMP because at least it tries to be distributed vs. Facebook, and in that post I echo much of what Gruber would later say.

But sadly, today's so-called 'open web' is just as much of an assault on the open web: trackers, cookies, and cross-correlated advertisements follow the user everywhere; every new link is literally a crapshoot which may execute arbitrary code placed there by the webmaster or their delegates. It's the devil you know vs. the devil that's brand-new every time: do I want my browsing habits aggregated to help them better target ads and content for me inside some walled garden, or do I want my browsing habits across the 'open web' to be aggregated by a dozen third parties to help them better target ads for me on the outside, while I blissfully extoll the virtues of decentralization and pretend I'm better off?

Until recently, the only way to avoid this was to spin off a clean incognito session in a browser running only one window, then close it after every pageview. Who does that? Short of a very particular few, no one.

The web is a wonderful, versatile medium of referencible documents and multimedia that we've turned into an application delivery platform; and the one thing that content silos like Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, and Apple News get right is that not everyone cares to visit unvetted content solely judged by its URL.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14384607

amelius 9 hours ago 1 reply      
Reminder to self that I should put in my LICENSE files:

 Copyright (c) <year> <copyright holders> Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person ... (the usual stuff, followed by ...) It is the express wish of the author that this software shall not be used in derived products or services to collect or spread information about users against their will for any purpose other than the main functionality of the product or service. Users will need to explicitly "opt-in" to such use of information if desired. The functionality of the derived product or service should be sufficiently broken down to avoid an all-or-nothing proposition to the user.
Suggestions for extensions and/or better phrasing welcome.

The rationale is that, while this will not have meaning or uphold in a court of law, the least we can do as developers is to send a message of our disapproval for the way big companies are treating the web and its users.

awinter-py 9 hours ago 0 replies      
I'm in a small minority of people who want to pay money to get on FB and can't.

I've been trying for months to advertise on there but there's no such thing as a business-only FB acct, you need an organic personal account. And some combination of my activity (not friending anyone, not using FB for anything, using an incognito tab, my IP address? I don't know) looks like trouble to the powers that be so my account keeps getting shut off.

I hate them just as much as these other guys but for 2x the reasons.

knieveltech 8 hours ago 1 reply      
Facebook is an attack on society itself. Ignorance of other people's stupidity, bigotry, and pettiness is a necessary lubricant for society to function.
tkubacki 7 hours ago 2 replies      
Whenever I see Gruber talking about openess and standards I smell hipocrysy - same way we can say iOS ecosystem is an attack on open computing (walled garden).
SkyMarshal 4 hours ago 0 replies      
It's almost like Facebook is a new AoL in web's clothing, trying to trick less sophisticated users that it's "the internet" when it's really just a single corporations's closed system.
saosebastiao 9 hours ago 1 reply      
By altering the title, you've taken something deliberately strong and watered it down. This isn't a situation where a different title better conveys the authors intent or content...this is explicitly an opinionated essay expressing exactly what the title summarizes. It is unnecessary censorship. Sure it is a word that commonly is considered vulgar, but it is also a word that has significant visceral meaning. HN shouldn't censor words just because they're strong enough to be offensive.
woodandsteel 8 hours ago 1 reply      
It's really very simple.

Facebook was able to become a huge success because it could compete freely on the open web.

Now that Facebook has become so powerful, it is trying to destroy the open web so no one can compete with it.

Speaking of which, what wonder what its position is on net neutrality.

l33tbro 4 hours ago 0 replies      
The "open web" is really an Eden-like myth, as there has and always will be stakeholders with various agendas chicaning the free exchange of information. Sorry, yes, but we really are opportunistic fucks. Not to Gordon Gecko levels, but an element of it will always be there and we need to collectively acknowledge and integrate it if we are to evolve.

Either way, Facebook's obfuscation of data is justifiably a cause for the concern due to the mass adoption of its platform. Yet, it's easy to focus on the machinations and fuckery that Facebook engage in to hold our gaze and numb our minds. What's more difficult is to question the agency of its hundreds of millions of users, who each have a slab of skull-encased smartmeat that gifts them with relative free will in their lives. Rather predictably, it comes down to a question of agency and personal responsibility: if you don't like the site, get off it.

But were only it so simple. Facebook is so deeply entrenched in the infrastructure of our personal lives, that it's very difficult for a lot of 'normies'(sic) to just pack up and fuck off. While the HN community may be au fait with the finer points of privacy, mass surveillance, and the founding principles of our nascent virtual civilisation - Dave from softball in Akron or Juliette who has a duck farm in the south of France do not. While they'd be concerned about those things if they were explained and they grokked the implications, their fucks lie elsewhere and, hence, Big Social Media remains a fringe idea.

TLDR: We get the social media we deserve.

rndmind 9 hours ago 2 replies      
I deleted my facebook account in highschool and have never looked back. The melodrama and immature antics are hilarious to observe, I'm so glad that I'm not a part of all that.
thsowers 9 hours ago 0 replies      
Too relevant...Trump tweets out a link to the livestream for his announcement on the Paris accord, and Facebook bugs me with a banner, and then informs me after clicking on the stream: "Please log in to continue"
piyush_soni 1 hour ago 0 replies      
But then, I seem to spend equal amount of time scrolling here on HN as I do on facebook. How many things can I deactivate now? :|
ilamont 8 hours ago 0 replies      
I have used FB since 2004. It became less and less of a place I wanted to spend time in when they started filling the feed with junk. First it was Farmville updates and other social games, then viral videos, then ads, then links to news articles and clickbait that I had no interest in clicking on. I must have blocked hundreds of apps, sites, and clickbait generators shared by friends in the last few years alone.

However, I won't disconnect FB as long as it's the primary way for me to check on/communicate with/share photos with relatives and friends from years ago. But it's hardly an addictive time-suck for me, and also for some of my friends judging by how seldom they post updates.

arrowgunz 4 hours ago 1 reply      
Oh boy, so many users disliking Facebook in this thread.

> a full one-third of my window is covered by a pop-over trying to get me to sign in or sign up for Facebook.

I get that John is clearly annoyed by a certain aspects of Facebook, but, I feel like it's unfair to say "Fuck Facebook" based on that. Facebook posts are primarily meant to be shared on the social network and not on the web. You can, of course, share it on the web, if the author of the post wishes to. But, Facebook has an amazing Notes features, which basically acts like a personalized blog. Long posts are meant to be shared via Notes and not the regular status update posts.

Check out this awesome note created by Kent Beck: https://www.facebook.com/notes/kent-beck/mastering-programmi...

They don't put a pop-over that takes up 1/3 of your page.

Also, I see a lot of people complaining about timesuck and how getting off of Facebook has improved their lives. How is any of it Facebook's fault? If anything, it means that it's a win for Facebook since they're providing good content that interests you, the user.

Also, stating that Facebook is trying to kill the open web is a bit ridiculous to say. Facebook's main sell is their content. They're not a search engine. They don't have to let non-Facebook users access their protected content. Yes, they do have a search engine that searches across the Facebook platform, but, you'd have to be a Facebook user in order to be able to search for it. Facebook got a lot of heat a few years ago for the lack of proper privacy features. Now, people complain about not having access to somebody else's content? There is no way everybody in this world can be satisfied.

Also, expecting Facebook to allow Internet Archive to index Facebook's content is unfair. Why should Facebook allow Internet Archive to index their protected content? The content is for the users to share with whoever they wish to share with, which may not necessarily be everybody in the world.

doughj3 8 hours ago 0 replies      
> But Facebook pulling a Vader and altering the deal, blocking public access in the future to a post that today is publicly visible?

Or, maybe worse, altering visibility for something that is private today such that it is public tomorrow.

donatj 9 hours ago 0 replies      
I find the change of title in complete opposition to the message and meaning of the post.
dvt 9 hours ago 0 replies      
The irony, I think, is that Facebook tends to be too open. There are pictures or posts or status updates I'd like hidden from the world. Facebook isn't necessarily an attack on the open web, it's an attack on content ownership. When it comes to my personal blog, I can create, alter, and delete as I see fit. On Facebook, I'm sure that posts from my early 20s still linger somewhere in the abyss of their data centers.

I'm sure that some embarrassing or unflattering picture of me is somewhere out there. And I think that's the crux of this problem: Facebook is the gatekeeper; it decides whether or not it wants to open or close the door on content. Of course, this has an implication as far as its openness is concerned, but the far more dangerous aspect is, as I mentioned, the fact that I should be the gatekeeper for my own content.

At least that's the way I see it. I agree with the idea that as a social platform, Facebook is dying. People contribute less and less personal and intimate content in lieu of linking articles or throwaway memes. Nowadays, I mostly use it as a news feed.

I think there's a vacuum out there ripe for disruption; a combination between Snapchat and Tumblr. A sort of MySpace for the new decade and a platform where people can be themselves again.

pc2g4d 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Facebook solved some real problems and thus pointed out weakness with the open web as it is. The way to combat this is not to wring our hands but to improve the web so it solves the same problems.

Things like spam/moderation. Is it possible to have a distributed, open solution to this problem?

idibidiartists 5 hours ago 0 replies      
I switched to Observer Only mode on Facebook after Trump got elected because I did not want to be stopped and e-frisked at airports. It turned out that that was the best way to use Facebook: stay on top of happenings with your friends and relatives but let them reach out to you on other communication channels if they miss you or wish to communicate some news. All the sudden, I'm having more meaningful, coherent dialog over email and text as opposed to stupid Facebook comments and likes.
cornchips 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Facebook is evil. They knew people would be posting videos killing themselves and let others watch. If you know anything about psychology; trauma and copycats. [1]

Facebook retains your data, and you can't do anything about it. I don't know how any engineers can work there knowing in their mind the delete button is a ruse -- or "incomplete functionality". From what i've observed there is active censorship especially in regards to negative statements of facebook (of which i'm sure they are aware of copycats).

This company has brought out the worst of society and they are deserving of justice -- or at least balance.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/may/21/facebook-users-... "Experts have told us whats best for these peoples safety is to let them livestream as long as they are engaging with viewers."

cgb223 3 hours ago 1 reply      
> It is not accessible to search engines

The thought of potential employers searching though Facebook posts I made when I was a teenager terrifies me.

If they ever made this possible I'd stop using their service immediately

jessaustin 8 hours ago 1 reply      
Poor Dave Winer. 131 HN comments and no one even pointed to his post that shook Gruber out of his slumber in the first place.


thr0waway1239 9 hours ago 2 replies      
>> Facebook going out of business seems unlikely

Is it? Because it seems to me that they are having plenty of issues with gaining the trust of advertisers too. Considering that advertising is the bread and butter of their business, this would normally be something of a mini-crisis.

A quick search for "do advertisers trust facebook" gives me






Of course, no one actually believes anything Facebook says with regards to privacy, and probably never did.

I would seriously doubt if there is anyone who actually looks at their practices who doesn't think they conduct large scale psychological experiments on the human lab rats who continue to use FB.

In other words, seems like there are enough ingredients here for an implosion. Something has to give.

hossbeast 2 hours ago 0 replies      
I prefer the original title, "fuck Facebook"
kuon 2 hours ago 0 replies      
I'm a programmer and my facebook account has been created only for testing apps. I don't even really know facebook is for.
Sir_Cmpwn 8 hours ago 0 replies      
I usually post this on HN's Facebook threads, happy to do it again:


webuser321 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Idea for startup: Compete with Facebook on one item: meetings for groups and organizations. Allow users to join groups without having to join Facebook.
calebgilbert 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Besides Facebook banning search engine indexing of itself the search functionality of Facebook itself is terrible. I belong to several groups and I've seen numerous examples of content, which I know is in the group, not showing up in search results while using very straight forward and matching searches.
Wissmania 8 hours ago 0 replies      
I agree with the authors points about blogging on facebook and having a decent logged out experience, but I want to push back against him lumping in anti-adblock pop overs.

Every publisher of high quality content is dependent on advertising to stay in business. When you are using adblock, your eyeballs are freeloading off of all the users who are using the website as intended.

I certainly understand the urge to use adblock, but it's amazing to me that people would feel entitled enough to actually expect publishers not to try to prevent this.

ossmaster 1 hour ago 0 replies      
What happens when zuckerburg runs for president?
Huhty 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Recent post from my blog that goes into this a bit further:

Modern Social Media Platforms Are Kicking Your Blogs Ass. Here Is How You Can Fight Back.


haywirez 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Love the post(s), the reasons mentioned are precisely why I took the time to make my own site. There are so many unexplored opportunities with custom components that will never work on platforms, but too few are doing it. Alan Kay's talks completely changed my way of thinking - you need to take control of your tools.
b0rsuk 7 hours ago 5 replies      
There's a string of submissions critical of Facebook on HN recently. I agree and approve.

But one thing interests me: doesn't Facebook have something like that, but in reverse ? I mean updates along the lines "We need more Facebook", "Open internet is for nerds", "Why more websites need to migrate to Facebook"... ? Unless you have a Facebook account, you don't know what's going on on the other side of the barricade.

One puzzling fact - stars on github:jquery/jquery - 45k,angular/angular - 25k,facebook/react - 68k,twbs/bootstrap - 111k,

On my local job market (I live in a 500k city), react is the least popular JS framework. I keep seeing jquery and especially angular over and over. Meanwhile react, the facebookiest of JS frameworks, shows up least frequently. Yet React is the most popular JS framework and by a large margin! I suspect it's because job offers with 'react' are mostly circulated via facebook. I also see very little job offers with the 'facebook' keyword - mostly for non-technical people, like marketing, salesmen, assistants, various misc jobs.

Hypothesis: we, outside Facebook, live in our own filterbubble. We don't get the whole picture.

id122015 8 hours ago 0 replies      
I closed my FB in 2013 and time passes so quick. I created a dummy account to have access to certain pages but I dont use it. But a lot of people have created thousands of dummy accounts to show how many friends they have. They sell on the market fake accounts/followers.

And I dont want to be part of such a group. Plus other reasons like the ones in the article like this.

lolsal 6 hours ago 0 replies      
> Content that isnt indexable by search engines is not part of the open web.

I'm not really sure what this means, but my knee-jerk reaction is that the 'open web' exists without search engines.

inostia 7 hours ago 0 replies      
I really, really hate the "log in to Facebook" popover.

I haven't had a Facebook account for over a year and I'm incredibly happy about it. The only downside is now I don't hear about local events.

omash 9 hours ago 0 replies      
Yep and Google to a bigger extent.
doktrin 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Facebook is probably the last place I go looking for quality blog-type content. Also, the title and tone of this piece both seem intensely hyperbolic to me.
bradgessler 8 hours ago 0 replies      
What honestly replaces Facebook today with a product and business model that's not dependent on advertisements?

The best thing I can think of is Apple Photos and Messages.

colordrops 5 hours ago 0 replies      
People in this thread talking about getting off of Facebook like former smack addicts...
jarjoura 8 hours ago 0 replies      
I think it's hilarious that the comments in here suggest Facebook gets in the way of quality of life because of the way it captures your attention. Yet, then they spend a large amount of time on this site practicing another form of toxicity.

I get that some people, here especially it seems, have very strongly held beliefs about privacy and personal space that Facebook will never accommodate for. Nor should they be expected to. Clearly those people will never be the target audience and that's 100% okay.

tantalor 9 hours ago 2 replies      
> I dont know what your privacy settings are. So if I point to your post, its possible a lot of people might not be able to read it

Easy: open the page in an incognito window.

namuol 9 hours ago 1 reply      
> Im sorry no matter how good your idea is fuck you I wont help you and Facebook kill the open web.

This is not how you win hearts and minds.

zelphir_kalt 9 hours ago 0 replies      
Unfortunately no surprise here. We need more websites telling people this, until finally people realize it.
krishg 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Facebook would be good if they didn't keep shoving more and more services into it. I don't want to order food from Facebook and don't want to sell anything. Ad blocker takes care of ad spam.
ProAm 8 hours ago 0 replies      
There is a bit of irony here with how Gruber defends Apple but finds Facebook a threat.
oconnor663 8 hours ago 0 replies      
> Facebook forbids search engines from indexing Facebook posts. Content that isnt indexable by search engines is not part of the open web.

When you make an argument like this, you need to acknowledge that tons people want the opposite thing you want. That doesn't make you wrong, but leaving it out makes it so much harder to have a good discussion.

krupan 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Facebook has done wonders to get people creating and consuming content on the internet. However, Facebook has grown to the point where it has no competition and is no longer innovating in ways that benefit us. Facebook should split into Facebook the aggregator and Facebook the content hoster. You could talk about a third piece that is Facebook the content provider, which is for providing things like gifs, templates, memes, emoji, games, and other stuff like that. Because Facebook hasn't completely broken from open web standards those types of content providers already exist today.

Aggregators would be where you go to set up your friend list and see your feed. It could look and feel like Facebook does now. It would have an open standard protocol that content hosters would use if they wanted to be aggregated. This could still be an add driven business, but subscription, self hosted, and DIY solutions could exist too.

Content hosters could either charge a monthly hosting fee, or they could serve up their own adds. Self hosted and DIY solutions could also exist.

The big benefit to this would of course be the competition. Since it's an open standard anyone could be a content host, and anyone could be an aggregator.

To make extra sure there is competition, and this could come in a phase two after the initial splitting up of Facebook, there should be open standards for exporting and importing friends, follows, likes, etc. to and from aggregators, and open standards for importing and exporting content from the hosters.

Speaking of follows and likes, there could also be aggregator aggregators (AAs). People could opt in to publicly and anonymously share their likes and follows and the AAs would consume those and report on trends that cross aggregator boundaries. Anonymity could be much more protected this way while still giving us that interesting information about what is trending.

One tricky part of this is how do I as a content author only allow my friends to see certain posts of mine? It would have to be with encryption. My content provider could keep public keys of my friends and only my friends (well, their aggregators) would be able to decrypt my posts using my friends' private keys. I can see some challenges and holes in this, but it doesn't seem any worse overall than how Facebook protects privacy now. Open implementations and peer review could get us to better-than-Facebook privacy quickly.

Facebook would ideally recognize their stagnation and initiate this split themselves. We as their user base can and should help them understand the importance of this. Hopefully it doesn't have to come down to government enforcement of anti-trust laws, but that could be a useful tool to apply here as well.

lyra_comms 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Lyra is a breath of fresh air for language and communication on the web.


nnfy 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Despite having deleted my little used Facebook months ago, Facebook still finds ways to remind me of its authoritarian intrusiveness; I have a fake account which I use for commenting, and I was asked to upload a copy of a photo ID. I was given a list of options, which included a driver's license and a passport.

This level of privacy invasion is simply unnaceptable to me, and I wish people online were more guarded with what amounts to their identity...

peterwwillis 5 hours ago 1 reply      
You've got to be kidding me.

Google has taken over search, web browsing, advertising, and has the largest mobile platform. They hold your email, maps, search history, personal docs, office suite, and calendar. They authenticate you to services all over the web. All of your actually important data (you really can live without pictures, unless you are a photographer or model) resides with them. They have created several new protocols that the web uses regularly, and influences new standards. They influence how most web content is created. They have leverage over most of the companies doing business on the web. They handle domains, cloud computing, business services, and a range of other products I don't remember. And they control how you use the web with their browsers and OSes.

There is no other company that single-handedly controls so many aspects of the web. Facebook is just a social platform; Google is everything else.

oever 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Why do we need Facebook?
rdslw 8 hours ago 0 replies      
In 6..18 months, I'll short facebook stocks.
blazespin 7 hours ago 0 replies      
I love facebook! I never post any selfies or personal news, but I love reading others and I like discussing politics on FB.

I'm not a like whore either. I'm pretty happy to just post and get zero likes. I wonder if anyone reads my posts? O well.

aanm1988 6 hours ago 0 replies      
so is google.

Conglomeration in general isn't great for the open web. That's where we are though.

throwaway-1209 9 hours ago 1 reply      
jroseattle 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Gruber's post is overly dramatic.

He was an Apple fanboy for the longest time, and didn't see that eco-system as an attack on interoperability?

The only difference I see here is he doesn't like FB.

Fireflies ncase.me
1161 points by bpierre  1 day ago   86 comments top 35
drueter 1 day ago 1 reply      
Apologies for what might be shameless self-promotion, but if you're interested in this idea, you might like my 2012 project , "The Kuramoto Model (1,000 Fireflies)." I built 1,000 microcontroller-based LED devices that synchronized with each other using radio communication, with a similar algorithm to what Nicky used. Link is here: http://davidrueter.com/projects/2012-the-kuramoto-model.html
mettamage 1 day ago 2 replies      
Yay ncase did it again! Don't forget to (re)view his project on The Parable of the Polygons: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8716538

Playable posts are amazing. Interactivity in texts is amazing.


19eightyfour 23 hours ago 6 replies      
Nature has the best algorithms, don't it folks?

I have a question about a detail.

The rule is:

1. When you see a nearby neighbour flash, nudge your own clock forward.

2. That's it.

My question is -- when the fireflies are firing at the same time, they see each other flash, so they all nudge their clocks forward, correct?

Assuming they don't nudge their clocks forward at the same amount, they would fall out of sync, correct? But they stay in sync, so they must nudge forward at the same amount...is this right?

So my question is -- if everyone keeps nudging their clocks forward, why don't they keep speeding up? They do appear instead to continue flashing at the same steady rate.

Does this mean that there ought to be another detail in the rule, such as,

If you see a neighbour nearby flash, when you are not flashing, nudge your clock forward by a bit.

? Or is the perspective I just said missing something?

tptacek 1 day ago 1 reply      
This is similar to a pretty famous result in networking and distributed systems about self-synchronization, which used to cause problems.


michaelmior 1 day ago 1 reply      
I did not realize you could scroll down on first viewing. If this weren't at 400+ upvotes when I saw it, I would have thought that was it.
fogleman 1 day ago 1 reply      
I did the same thing a few years ago! My fireflies didn't move around though.


dyarosla 1 day ago 2 replies      
I think the example works more quickly than it should due to the line "if(ff.clock>1) ff.clock=1;" Every time the clock goes over 1, wouldn't you mod the clock value, not set it to 1 exactly?
DelaneyM 1 day ago 0 replies      
Beautiful, educational and clever. I love it.

On the subject of fireflies and emergent patterns, RadioLab did a wonderful podcast on the subject as well a few years ago: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91500-emergence/ This piece very much reminded me of that.

cwal37 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Not on the coding side, but the inspiration. . . For those of us in the USA, there is a much more accessible version of synchronous fireflies at Great Smoky Mountains National Park in Tennessee. I lived there for a few years and went multiple times[1].

The dates get announced a month or so beforehand, and tickets are based on a lottery system since it only[2] occurs on one side of one river for less than a mile. You can technically also hike in if you're ok with 8 or so miles near sunset and then the same amount out in the pitch black. I believe that is frowned upon, but very few people do it that way (I was the only one the year I couldn't get tickets and decided to hike).

[1] https://www.flickr.com/photos/23215983@N02/albums/7215764507...

[2] Not exactly only, but certainly the most strongly.

ozaark 1 day ago 0 replies      
> But whenever you shine, you inspire those close to you to shine too, a little bit sooner than they otherwise would have. And those close to you, in turn, inspire those close to them.

This is adaptation to input disruption on a network of brain impulses. Fascinating that so much correlates with our own perception and technologies.

Really great interactive post both informative and engaging.

ge96 19 hours ago 1 reply      
Kind of curious how it works, when you inspect it, there's just a canvas, the fireflies don't seem to be individual, so no sense of "objects" or "individual entities"

open source time to read

but with regard to say if it was a real-time rendered animation, then calculating the point of origin and affecting the nearby fireflies... hmm

the view clock part was particularly impressive though I could see it as a state thing, still so many of them on the same page, not crashing the browser or something interesting. Maybe I'm over thinking it.

edit: I didn't look at the scripts though below the canvas.

janwillemb 1 day ago 1 reply      
What an extremely nice interactive read. Works good on mobile. And it applies the biological lesson to human life, which is a nice way to finish a sermon. Article. Well done.
daleroberts 21 hours ago 0 replies      
This is fasinating topic, I recently tried to understand what happens to this type of model if you perturb it with heavy-tailed noise.


whalesalad 17 hours ago 1 reply      
The background noise is so soothing. http://ncase.me/fireflies/sounds/forest.mp3
leovander 1 day ago 0 replies      
Reminds me of the Fireflies[0] model included in NetLogo[1].

[0] https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/models/Fireflies[1] http://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/index.shtml

eridius 1 day ago 1 reply      
This is neat.

Did they ever figure out why Thailand fireflies do this, instead of just how?

dharma1 15 hours ago 0 replies      
Very cool. This was an interesting paper on synchrony in the brain, and how it's related to consciousness - https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10340
cossatot 22 hours ago 0 replies      
If anyone is interested in this synchronization process or how it relates to synchronization in general, I highly recommend 'Sync' by Steven Strogatz. It's one of the best popular science/math books I've ever read, and Strogatz is a mathematician at the heart of the research, and a great writer as well, so you really get the story from someone who is a world expert, rather than an interested journalist.
JKCalhoun 1 day ago 2 replies      
My only hang-up with the explanation/simulation is, why do the fireflies all have clocks that run at the same duration as one another?

I understand advancing your clock to synchronize flashes, but doesn't this presuppose that the clocks run at the same speed?

When I turned on "Show Clocks" in the simulation it indeed looked like the clocks ran at identical durations. Seems like this would be difficult in nature.

osense 17 hours ago 0 replies      
It would be even more impressive if the fireflies' internal clock was ticking at slightly different speeds. As it is now, once they're synchronized, turning the sync mechanism off has no effect and they stay synced forever.
joelcollinsdc 13 hours ago 0 replies      
The view source of this is amazingly clean and refreshing to read. Great learning example, thanks!
rullelito 17 hours ago 0 replies      
I wonder if you need the random scattering for this to work, or if it would still work if the fireflies formed a hollow circle.
merraksh 1 day ago 0 replies      
Reminded me of another phenomenon, the one occurring to metronomes on the same surface: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v5eBf2KwF8
jonathanpoulter 1 day ago 1 reply      
After the point when the whole swarm is synchronised there seems to be no further nudging, does this make sense? Am I missing something? Very interesting, just not sure I understand.
zachrose 1 day ago 1 reply      
Is there some inverse of the firefly's sync protocol that if they all followed would turn a synchronized swarm back into a chaotic one?
quadcore 16 hours ago 2 replies      
Why would a firefly that sync survive more than one which doesn't?
omginternets 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Incidentally, this is a very powerful model for neural synchrony as well.
GrumpyNl 17 hours ago 0 replies      
Does the 137.5 degrees has something todo with this?
nether 22 hours ago 0 replies      
One of the things I miss from growing up in rural Virginia.
a_imho 22 hours ago 0 replies      
ot, the patreon link comes up with an empty white page and pukes all kinds of js errors to the console for me
SpicyPython 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is nice, I really enjoy this
duke360 21 hours ago 0 replies      
this is pure genius!i love fireflies!
johnfn 1 day ago 0 replies      
Probably one of my favorite things I've seen on HN in a long time. The perfect synthesis of tech explanations to biological phenomena. The way the entire page fits together to teach is just beautiful.

Why it's sitting down on the second page with just a few upvotes is beyond me.

tnone 1 day ago 3 replies      
Parable of the polygons is extremely questionable. For one, it attempts to have its cake while eating it too, by pretending it's an abstract demonstration about choices while explicitly calling out to hot topics in diversity, implying a clear causal link. For another, the model involves discrete agents on a discrete grid making decisions based on their immediate 8 square neighborhood, with no persistence or hysteresis, which does not at all match the real life domain it is attempting to model.

If you changed the grid geometry, changed the action radius, or added a more complicated decision mechanism, it is likely to result in a completely different outcome. It is more like a cellular automaton than a sociological model, compounding design choices, not agent choices.

It should probably be called Parable of the Quantization Error instead and held up as an example of an explorable explanation being misused for propaganda purposes, using its medium to present a false image of impartiality.

SCOTUS: Patent Rights Over a Printer Cartridge Are Exhausted When It Is Sold cornell.edu
874 points by beefman  2 days ago   299 comments top 35
touchofevil 2 days ago 13 replies      
If you want to learn about a really interesting aspect of the "first sale doctrine" and how it applies to software, you should have a look at "Vernor vs Autodesk" in the USA and compare it to "Oracle vs UsedSoft" in the EU. Basically, in the USA the courts determined that if a company sells you software, but in their terms & conditions claim that they are merely granting you a license, then you can't resell the software b/c you aren't considered to own it. In the EU however, if a company sells you a permanent life-time license in exchange for a one-time fee, the courts determined that you aren't merely licensing that software, you own it and you are allowed to resell it.

I think these different rulings haven't been fully appreciated yet. For example, if you buy Apple's Final Cut X for $299, you should be allowed to resell that software if you live in the EU, but there is currently no way to transfer licenses between users, preventing users from reselling it. It seems to me that by preventing users from reselling their software, Apple (and the Google Play Store) are probably violating EU law on this matter.

awjr 2 days ago 3 replies      
In short, the sale of a product does not allow you to control what is done with the product afterwards through patent law.

I'm assuming this is almost similar to attempts to use copyright law to stop the sale of products on the grey market. http://www.bipc.com/court-rebuffs-attempt-to-use-copyright-l...

I do wonder though, if they changed the underlying software on the cartridges they would get into trouble. I do not see this stopping John Deere's practice of locking up their hardware through copyright laws. https://www.wired.com/2015/02/new-high-tech-farm-equipment-n...

roywiggins 2 days ago 2 replies      
When you can cite Lord Coke in your opinion, I guess it's practically mandatory to do so.

> As Lord Coke put it in the 17th century, if an owner restricts the resale or use of an item after selling it, that restriction is voide, because . . . it is against Trade and Traffique, and bargaining and contracting betweene man and man. 1 E. Coke, Institutes of the Laws of England 360, p. 223 (1628)

jasonlfunk 2 days ago 2 replies      
The Planet Money podcast recently did an episode about this case: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/31/522226226/episo...
gameshot911 2 days ago 8 replies      
Can someone clarify one part:

>The other option is to buy a cartridge at a discount through Lexmarks Return Program. In exchange for the lower price, customers who buy through the Return Program must sign a contract agreeing to use the cartridge only once and to refrain from transferring the cartridge to anyone but Lexmark.

>As a result, even if the restrictions in Lexmarks contracts with its customers were clear and enforceable under contract law, they do not entitle Lexmark to retain patent rights in an item that it has elected to sell.

There are two issues at play here, right? One is Lexmark's patent rights, and the other is the contract between Lexmark and the consumer. The Supreme Court held that Lexmark can't use patent rights to prevent refilling the cartridges, but what of the contract? Is that enforceable?

3JPLW 2 days ago 1 reply      
The text is the same, but I find the official PDF better typeset and much more readable: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/16pdf/15-1189_ebfj.pdf
joshuak 2 days ago 2 replies      
Good, but the tip of the issue is licensing. Autodesk[1] has set precedence that all an organization must do to limit the resale of anything is institute a EULA. Simply by asserting that an offer is for a license not the thing being licensed the seller can bypass common law, Lord Coke, and the first sale doctrine.

P.S. This also means that expensive professional software like Autodesk's, or anything with such an EULA, cannot be considered an asset since it has no dollar value after purchase.

1: https://www.wired.com/2010/09/first-sale-doctrine/

Angostura 2 days ago 0 replies      
That's a fascinating judgement and the hypothetical case that they use to illustrate things seems interestingly chosen:

>But an illustration never hurts. Take a shop that restores and sells used cars. The business works because the shop can rest assured that, so long as those bringing in the cars own them, the shop is free to repair and resell those vehicles. That smooth flow of commerce would sputter if companies that make the thousands of parts that go into a vehicle could keep their patent rights after the first sale. Those companies might, for instance, restrict resale rights and sue the shop owner for patent infringement. And even if they refrained from imposing such restrictions, the very threat of patent liability would force the shop to invest in efforts to protect itself from hidden lawsuits. Either way, extending the patent rights beyond the first sale would clog the channels of commerce, with little benefit from the extra control that the patentees retain. And advances in technology, along with increasingly complex supply chains, magnify the problem. See Brief for Costco Wholesale Corp. et al. as Amici Curiae 79; Brief for Intel Corp. et al. as Amici Curiae 17, n. 5 (A generic smartphone assembled from various high-tech components could practice an estimated 250,000 patents).

ryandamm 2 days ago 2 replies      
This is really similar to the concept of 'first sale' in copyright law, which similarly prevents the copyright holder from using copyright to restrict what a buyer does with the object.

Glad to see it extended to patent law as well.

doodlebugging 2 days ago 0 replies      
This case sounds similar to the ruling back in the 1980's (I think) that came from a suit by the makers of Warn winches against a North Texas trailer maker/seller.

From flawed memory, the trailer sales business offered the Warn product line at prices well below those of other Warn dealers and below the suggested retail prices from Warn. He was sued by the manufacturer in an attempt to get him to raise the prices and he prevailed I think based on first sale doctrine since the court ruled that Warn had already been paid for the product and that ownership and control of the winches passed to the trailer manufacturer who was thus free to advertise and sell them at any price he desired even if it meant he took a loss on each one sold. They belonged to him and he could do as he pleased with them. He had been using them as a kind of loss leader where one of the incentives of buying a trailer allowed you to purchase a winch at a large discount.

EDIT: The case was not Warn winches, it was Ramsey winches and the ruling was:


Briefly - I have a bad memory. The case was a lot more involved since Ramsey tried to terminate the distributor agreement and was thus sued by Pierce Sales. Pierce was a high-volume winch dealer and due to the high volume of sales he was able to buy the winches from Ramsey at the lowest price available to dealers. He then used that buying power to advertise the lowest prices for the winches and even offered other dealers the opportunity to buy hard-to-find winches directly from his stock at prices lower than they could buy directly from Ramsey if that particular winch was even available from Ramsey stock. Pierce alleged price-fixing by Ramsey and ultimately won the case.

I remembered the court case but almost none of the pertinent details.


ChuckMcM 2 days ago 2 replies      
Yay, hopefully this will translate into a non-crazy ink refill situation which will translate into a much reduced price in ink cartridges. My hope is that the following will occur;

1) People who sell re-filled cartridges, and offer to refill your existing cartridges will no longer suffer malicious lawsuits from HP & Lexmark.

2) That will increase the supply and create a price competition between re-fillers. Making it possible to easily find ink cartridges at 1/2 to 1/3 the price that the printer manufacturer sells it for.

3) The manufacturers will reduce prices on their ink cartridges in order to support their revenue stream.

I also expect more counter measures like ink cartridge chips that 'self destruct' when the cartridge is exhausted to prevent refilling. And aggressive prosecuting under the DMCA people who reverse engineer cartridge chips to create work alike versions.

DannyBee 2 days ago 2 replies      
In practice it means people will still be able to stop you from doing things with stuff you own. Just not using patent rights.Lexmark's real problem here is that its enforceable contracts are usually with the resellers, and so enforcing against a third party purchaser is trickier, so it tried to use patent law instead. (It has plenty of contracts, including on the wrapping of the printer cartridges, I'm just sticking with the ones that are easy to enforce)
kevin_b_er 2 days ago 0 replies      
You better be glad it went this way, or you would have no reasonable property rights. All objects may have contained an unknowable restriction on their use or ownership. Everything could have what is tantamount to an easement and you wouldn't know what it was unless you found out how it was first sold.

Fortunately sanity on basic notion of property rights remains within the SCOTUS.

inputcoffee 2 days ago 2 replies      
Some context for this consequential decision:


optimiz3 2 days ago 1 reply      
Couldn't find the vote without teasing it out of the text -

It was an 8-0 decision, with a minor dissent from Ginsburg on what happens when a product is sold in a foreign territory.

geofft 2 days ago 6 replies      
I'm a little surprised that Ginsburg dissented here, and also dissented from Kirtsaeng v. John Wiley: naively, she's "liberal", and (at least in my bubble) being "liberal" is associated with wanting less strong IP protection.

But I see also that she wrote the majority opinion in Eldred v. Ashcroft, saying that the 28-year extension to copyright terms was constitutional.

What's the right way to understand her legal thinking here? Is she known as an IP maximalist? Or are there other principles she's using to reach these conclusions? (I don't completely follow her logic that, because US patent law doesn't provide any protection in other countries, US patent rights are preserved across a sale in some other country.)

jvandonsel 2 days ago 3 replies      
Could Lexmark argue that they're not really selling the cartridges to you, but are instead leasing them for an indeterminate period of time?
wordsarewind 2 days ago 0 replies      
As opined here the justification for the exhaustion of the patent after sale is that the patent holder has in the sale been granted the price desired, fair compensation, for the patented item, and thus cannot demand further use of the patent with respect to the item. However, this desired price can only be set by the patent holder in the monopoly granted through the patent in the US. Therefore, this price cannot be set outside of the US where the patent holder has no patent monopoly, and thus competition. Consequently, the patent holder will not receive the desired price and remain uncompensated by the patent, and thus may still require further use of it.

Surely the Supreme Court shouldn't disqualify the patent holder's right to fair compensation for the invention in sales outside of the US?

SeanDav 2 days ago 3 replies      
I can't believe that the printer market has not been disrupted by someone offering a decent printer without ridiculous ongoing printer cartridge costs.

I just bought a 99 printer that will cost more than 99 in printer cartridge costs after just a few months of casual use and I did not spot any alternatives.

CalChris 2 days ago 0 replies      
There's a certain obviousness to this decision. Indeed it's hard to read the rest of the opinion after it explains what it is to exhaust patent rights in the first paragraph. There's plenty of precedent, indeed when you're quoting Coke, you're going back to the 17th century and his decision doesn't seem different from the opinion.

This all begs the question how did this ham handed attempt to abuse patent rights even end up in court and then how did it get appealed to the Supreme Court and moreover why did the Supremes bother to hear it? Because it seems obvious at least to this NL and obvious stuff usually isn't on their docket.

rabboRubble 2 days ago 1 reply      
How does this case compare to Monsanto vs Bowman? If you recall, this case pertained to a farmer that bought seeds from a local farmers association, then applied Roundup guessing that some/all of the seeds were GMO. Monsanto argued he violated their patent. Bowman argued that the GMO patent was exhausted after the first sale. He lost.

This Lexmark case seems to undermine the Monsanto case. I don't understand this inconsistency between the two cases.

Anybody able to clarify why these are different?

AdmiralAsshat 2 days ago 2 replies      
Outside of the narrow case involving printer cartridges, what other implications and precedents can we expect this to set?

Can it stop smartphone makers from being able to blacklist devices that are resold, for instance?

mmastrac 2 days ago 1 reply      
Wasn't apple using patents to stop modding of their magsafe cables?
test6554 2 days ago 0 replies      
So a company signs a contract for cheaper ink that requires them to return the cartridges to Lexmark and only Lexmark.

Then companies willfully break the contract and send their cartridges to a 3rd party. Lexmark sues the third party and courts throw out the suit.

Lexmark can either tighten enforcement and restrictions on their own customers as well as sue them, or stop the program all together. I assume they will just stop the program and only sell the more expensive new cartridges going forward.

sova 2 days ago 0 replies      
An excellently subtle line of English text to say "yeah your friend can refill your printer cartridges for you, without facing penalties of patent infringement"
01572 2 days ago 3 replies      
Will companies now save more money on toner?

Is there anyone selling a reverse-engineered, refillable pod for the coffee machines that only accept pre-filled proprietary ones?

Do these coffee machine vendors seek to use patents to protect their sales of coffee?

Edit: I know Keurig and Nespresso are the well-publicised examples, but I was thinking of the others. I assume with reasonable confidence there are others still using non-refillable proprietary pods.

post_break 2 days ago 1 reply      
Apple really pissed me off about this. Magsafe is not licensed. Buy Magsafe bricks, cut the end off, and make a battery that can charge MacBooks? See you in court.


bhhaskin 2 days ago 0 replies      
This is a pretty big deal. It is great to finally start to see what patents where supposed to be, which was to protect the inventor until they could become established in the market. Not as a tool to stifle innovation. Very interesting outcome.
pitaa 2 days ago 4 replies      
> Gorsuch, J., took no part in the consideration or decision of the case.

Does anyone know why this is?

baltimore 2 days ago 2 replies      
Does this mean that printer prices are about to go up since HP/Brother/Lexmark will no longer be able to make as much money on the ink?
conistonwater 2 days ago 3 replies      
Can somebody explain, what does the word exhaust mean? It doesn't seem like it's being used in the plain-English sense here.
limeyx 1 day ago 0 replies      
So now the companies will start selling "leases" to printer cartridges ?
EGreg 2 days ago 0 replies      
What's new precedent has been set by this decision? It seems it upholds an existing doctrine.
guelo 2 days ago 0 replies      
This is another in a series of necessary smackdowns of the Federal Circuit.
Steko 2 days ago 1 reply      
Florian Mueller (yes, [1]) says this is very bad news for Qualcomm. He quotes Roberts' decision:

"The problem with the Federal Circuit's logic is that the exhaustion doctrine is not a presumption about the authority that comes along with a sale; it is a limit on the scope of the patentee's rights. The Patent Act gives patentees a limited exclusionary power, and exhaustion extinguishes that power. A purchaser has the right to use, sell or import an item because those are the rights that come along with ownership, not because it purchased authority to engage in those practices from the patentee."

Then recaps FTC v Qualcomm:

Presumably, some people in another Washington DC building are now reading the Supreme Court decision: the lawyers working on the FTC's case against Qualcomm. The FTC argued in its January complaint, under a headline that describes Qualcomm's "no license-no chips" policy as "anomalous among component suppliers," that "when one of Qualcomm's competitors sells a baseband processor to an OEM, the OEM can use or resell the processor without obtaining a separate patent license from the competitorjust as a consumer buying a smartphone does not have to obtain a separate patent license from the seller of the smartphone." The FTC went on to explain that "Qualcomm is unique in requiring an OEM, as a condition of sale, to secure a separate patent license requiring royalty payments for handsets that use a competitor's components." For example, this would apply to a situation in which a device maker is a customer of Qualcomm and, say, Intel or Samsung's component business.

And Apple v Qualcomm including relevance of overseas sales portion of today's decision:

Count XXIII of Apple's antitrust complaint against Qualcomm is a request for judicial "declaration of unenforceability [of Qualcomm's patents in certain contexts] due to exhaustion." Apple alleged in its January complaint that "Qualcomm has sought, and continues to seek, separate patent license fees from Apple's [contract manufacturers] for patents embodied in the chipsets Qualcomm sells to Apple's CMs, a practice that is prohibited under the patent exhaustion doctrine." ... Apple's complaint already anticipated that Qualcomm would point to its corporate structure: "Qualcomm has attempted to evade the patent exhaustion doctrine by selling baseband processor chipsets to Apple's [contract manufacturers] through QTC, which is operated by QTI, which is in turn a wholly owned subsidiary of Qualcomm." Apple then points to Qualcomm's 2012 restructuring, which I already blogged about back then with a focus on open-source licensing issues. The Supreme Court's broad and inclusive approach to exhaustion simply doesn't allow any kind of end-run around the exhaustion doctrine through a first sale outside the United States as in one of the two issues relevant in the Lexmark case.


[1] Yes it's FM but his analysis here seems better than it did 6+ years ago. I don't remember him saying things like this in the oracle case: "The good news is that the Supreme Court has once again overruled the Federal Circuit in a way that strengthens those defending themselves against attempts to gain excessive leverage and extract overcompensation from patents."

Goodbye PNaCl, Hello WebAssembly chromium.org
637 points by Ajedi32  2 days ago   339 comments top 21
eeZi 2 days ago 14 replies      
This one I'm fine with since WebAssembly is a worthy replacement, but I'm still annoyed at Google discontinuing Chrome Apps.

Some examples of specialized apps I use all the time that would require a native app otherwise:

- Signal Desktop

- TeamViewer

- Postman

- SSH client

- Cleanflight drone configuration tool

It was one of the best things that happened to Linux desktops in a long time and removing it hurts users and makes them less secure.

Now everyone is moving to Electron and instead of one Chrome instance, I'm now running five which use more than one GB of RAM each. Much less secure, too, since each has its own auto-updater or repository and instead of being sandboxed by Chrome's sandbox, they're all running with full permissions.

It also means I cannot longer use Signal Desktop on my work device since installing native apps is forbidden for good reasons, while Chrome Apps are okay.

It also hurts Chrome OS users since Chrome Apps are being abandoned in favor of Electron. It also makes it less useful for developers to create Chrome Apps since the market is much smaller.

Since Chrome Apps continue to be available on Chrome OS, I'm considering separating that functionality into a stand-alone runtime or making a custom build for Linux. Anyone wants to help with that?

withjive 2 days ago 4 replies      
Looks like Mozilla won this fight.When Mozilla didn't accept PNaCl and Pepper API proposed by Google, Mozilla went down the ASM path which now led us to Web Assembly being the general way forward.
lwlml 2 days ago 7 replies      
At this point, I really loathe adopting any facet of web-browser technology: there are too many broken APIs in too many browsers to maintain on both sides of the system: the browser developers have an insane number of combinations of features that need to be useful, secured and made reliable and developers for browsers are always at some weird disadvantage where they can spend months or years maintaining an application for the browser to find it rots out from underneath them.

Should you even be slightly successful in the use of an API, you always have to worry about deprecation when someone is no longer interested in doing the maintenance any more.

I am sure there were more than a few game developers that are are livid today about this announcement.

These things will go in cycles and I expect there will be an native-application cycle coming soon from browser-api-fatigue.

nimrody 2 days ago 1 reply      
Then perhaps Andreas Gal's "Chrome Won" assertion wasn't entirely accurate. After all WebAssembly is something that was derived from Mozilla's asm.js.
_wmd 2 days ago 6 replies      
The most material result of this is that Chromebooks won't have a working SSH client starting sometime next year, because WebAssembly can't do real sockets without an external proxy.
gklitt 2 days ago 0 replies      
It seems like the browser vendors are doing a good job coordinating to provide a robust ecosystem around Web Assembly. Clearly much healthier for the future of the web than fragmented browser-specific solutions.
tehabe 1 day ago 1 reply      
Am I in the minority that I think it is a positive development, when Google is discarding proprietary ideas in favour of open developments?

Not perfect but the direction looks good so far.

seanwilson 2 days ago 0 replies      
I'm so confused why Google deprecated Chrome Apps. You'd think they'd take advantage of the abundance of Electron apps by extending the capabilities of Chrome Apps to grow their Chrome ecosystem and attract new developers.
lawthemi 1 day ago 1 reply      
It's sad. PNACL is more efficient.Go to lichess.org/analysis, make a few moves, turn on the engine analysis.With firefox and WASM, my machine compute 300 knode/s.With chrome and PNACL, my machine compute 2000 knode/s.That's a big step backward.
coolmitch 2 days ago 7 replies      
As a web developer working primarily in JS, what should I be learning now to stay relevant/up-to-date once WebAssembly is more common? Are we going to see more web stuff built with c++, like the dsp example in this blog post?
willvarfar 1 day ago 2 replies      
This is a sad day. NaCL was excellent tech, and its a shame it didn't get incorporated into LLVM proper, and that it didn't take off. We should be using NaCL/pNaCL for all apps everywhere, and for components within apps... etc.

ZeroVM was a desktop/server sandboxing environment that just didn't get any attention and mindshare. Shame!

I want a ZeroVM-like system that makes all of the Debian user-space available on any other OS, each app in a little sandbox... It ought just be another compiler target and automated.

Oh to what could have been! :(

jhpriestley 2 days ago 3 replies      
From the asm.js FAQ:

 Q. Why not NaCl or PNaCl instead? Are you just being stubborn about JavaScript? A. The principal benefit of asm.js over whole new technologies like NaCl and PNaCl is that it works today
asm.js however wasn't good enough to actually be useful, as evidenced by the lack of adoption and the move to wasm. So now we have wasm which is not backward compatible. We would be further along now if Mozilla/Eich would have gotten behind Google's more mature effort, this really was stubbornness IMO.

jepler 2 days ago 2 replies      
OK, so where do I get a mosh client programmed in WebAssembly? Without it, my chromebooks might as well be bricks.
xoroshiro 2 days ago 2 replies      
I'm not familiar with what goes in a browser, but for some reason, browsers seem to eat up a lot of resources.

While I am happy that it looks like this will (more or less) be standardized across browsers, I still hope for the day where running a more minimal browser (text, image, maybe videos) will become viable. Of course, I'm pessimistic on this, seeing as so many sites are probably not functional without javascript and other related technologies, but maybe some web developers care about choice. Who knows.

JacobiX 1 day ago 0 replies      
We used PNaCl to port some games to a Smart TV. It was a painful experience. Debugging chrome from a custom gdb, breaking changes from release to release, and some very subtle bugs in pepper API. But the final results were surprisingly not so awful.
camus2 2 days ago 1 reply      
Why bother investing time and resources in Google techs when they keep on discontinuing them? they don't care about enterprise software, if they did, they wouldn't act like that. AMP? lol, think again before implementing this, it will not be worth the effort since Chrome will eventually drop that too.

A good reminder not to invest in any Google specific technology.

> We recognize that technology migrations can be challenging.

You recognize you wasted a lot of people's time.

Crontab 2 days ago 3 replies      
Is WebAssembley going to turn into yet another web technology that can be used by websites in order to track us or to annoy us with advertising?

I'm asking because every time something new is introduced, it feels like it ends up being used to abuse users (Javascript, XSS, Cookies, HTML5 Video).

TekMol 1 day ago 1 reply      
Can somebody ELI 5 what is the benefit of WebAssembly vs Asm.js?
r0anne 1 day ago 2 replies      
>We will remove support for PNaCl in the first quarter of 2018

While the new Google Earth with PNaCl was just introduced, a large engineering cost for a semester-lived technology! Too bad

ap46 1 day ago 1 reply      
Can someone get opencv running on it?
zurn 2 days ago 1 reply      
Say hello to memory-unsafe languages and resulting vulnerabilities in web apps?
Pinboard Acquires Delicious blog.pinboard.in
673 points by cjbprime  10 hours ago   184 comments top 52
incanus77 9 hours ago 6 replies      
I built a five-year career of self-employment on the back of a Mac app called Pukka which was itself built upon Delicious.


I turned the interest in the app into my first piece of commercial software which, coming from an open source and free software background, was actually pretty daunting. I timidly started charging five bucks in the pre-App Store days, before eventually raising the price over time to make it more sustainable.


I had ups and downs, launched a second app (Meerkat, for SSH tunneling), but eventually realized I wasn't really an indie product person as much as I was a people and services one, so I ended up doing about 80% consulting and 20% Mac software, including Pukka.

I eventually ended up folding up shop after I went to work for Mapbox full-time in 2011.


This is something Maciej even wrote about.


So I'll always have a spot in my heart for Delicious, and this seems a fitting and appropriate end. I'm so glad its content will remain available in perpetuity.

buckbova 10 hours ago 0 replies      
I honestly didn't realize delicious was still around. It felt really groundbreaking at the time. I loved the ability to tag and search for links by tags to find new interesting content. Perhaps with introduction news mashups like digg it didn't feel as useful anymore. I stopped using delicious soon after it was acquired by yahoo.

Site has been bounced around a bit since.


"The site was founded by Joshua Schachter and Peter Gadjokov in 2003 and acquired by Yahoo in 2005. By the end of 2008, the service claimed more than 5.3 million users and 180 million unique bookmarked URLs.[2][3][4] Yahoo sold Delicious to AVOS Systems in April 2011,[5] and the site relaunched in a "back to beta" state on September 27 that year.[6] In May 2014, AVOS sold the site to Science Inc.[7] In January 2016 Delicious Media, a new alliance, reported it had assumed control of the service.[8]"

vit05 9 hours ago 10 replies      
I am still waiting for a better experience in save what I like.

Pocket is great for text, but only for that. Pinboard is cool and safe but is not for me. I still use google to find things that I have saved before, since 96, I have countless files called Temp on bookmarkers for things that I need organize, things saved on twitter, Medium, Reddit, Pinterest, Instagram, Google Keep, HN, Evernote and on mobile, there are tons of screenshots of things that I could use later. And that is for things that I already have seen, but, unfortunately, nothing of this is used to refine my experience in discovery new things that I could, potentially, like to see.

I really hope that more people attempt to compete with Pinboard.

Huhty 9 hours ago 3 replies      
_jal 2 hours ago 0 replies      
This demonstrates that there is justice in the world. I love it.

Been using Pinboard since the strange pricing model. It is the only "cloud" service I use, and ever since I wrote some little utilities for searching the automated backup I keep from the command line, I actually mainly use the service because there are tools for easily adding to the store from the browser and an Iphone app.

In general, Pinboard is my idea of how a successful, solid internet service business looks. Find a niche, occupy it well enough that people want to give you money, and continually make it better for the users. (That last bit is important - Google used to be good for me as a user, but they've "improved" to the point that I don't want them in my life.)

ralphc 10 hours ago 1 reply      
I've used Delicious for 12 years, with 10,000+ bookmarks in it. Delicious went up and down and was sold, I got nervous and got a Pinboard account as a backup, back when it was doing one-time charges, but inertia kept me in Delicious. The recent downtimes, plus the iOS app no longer working, and Pinboard extensions making saving links easy, pushed me over last month. I was frustrated that the Delicious export went away, so the Pinboard acquisition is going to be perfect for me.
colinbartlett 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Congrats to Maciej, I think! What a cool piece of internet history, and a storied brand, to have within your stable.
muppetman 3 hours ago 0 replies      
I can't stop laughing.After years of laughing at them, mocking them and generally just being a hilarious thorn in their side, he's bought them!

This is just the most fantastic thing I've read today and probably will be all week. Month, for that matter.

I also love his comment "I am the greatest!"

As a customer, yes, yes you are.

hanru 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Two posts made my day today: this one and the "Fuck Facebook" one.
nl 22 minutes ago 0 replies      
Another should-have-been from the Web2.0 days which Yahoo screwed up.

Delicious should have become Pinterest

Flickr should have become Instagram

dyu- 9 hours ago 0 replies      
If anyone wants to export their bookmarks and self-host, try [1]. It has the ability to import from both delicious and chrome.

I've used delicious since 2008 (~22k bookmarks) and stopped using it last year when it was sold to Delicious Media (it was becoming unreliable/unstable).

1. https://github.com/dyu/bookmarks/

Disclosure: I started the project

Edited: added timeline

bitsoda 8 hours ago 0 replies      
About a year ago I went into my Pocket and Pinboard archives and realized my collection had ballooned to well-over 10,000 items. Yet, I rarely, if ever, went back to dig up old links so I did a mass purging and closed my Pinboard account. I still use Pocket to save links I plan to read within a week, but I no longer archive anything and keep the list to < 10 items.

I'm not sure what the point of this comment was, but lately I've been thinking about physical vs digital hoarding and thought I would share.

dna_polymerase 9 hours ago 4 replies      
> Do not attempt to compete with Pinboard.

WTF? Is that a challenge? Expect me!

dmix 10 hours ago 4 replies      
Poor Delicious. They were a victim of web 2.0. Much like Digg.

Delicious vs Pinboard was basically Digg vs Reddit.

The one who focused on the basic core usecase over flashy features and modern/trendy design won.

jccalhoun 10 hours ago 0 replies      
I'm torn. On one hand, a couple years ago when delicious went down for over a week, I paid for an account at pinboard and haven't regretted it one bit. On the other hand, it is sad to see such an old brand mismanaged and unable to survive on its own. I have hope that it is in good hands though.
clebio 2 hours ago 0 replies      
When I abandoned Delicious, started using Diigo, and it still works fine [1]. Curious no one's mentioned it here.https://www.diigo.com/

Edit:[1]: fine, not great. It's got some weird usability flaws that someone thought would be either a good idea or just good lock-in. But they're mostly avoidable.

davidcelis 9 hours ago 1 reply      
Truly the end of an era. I'll miss Maciej's delicious Delicious bashing.
squillful 4 hours ago 0 replies      
I was a longtime Delicious user, but it really fell apart after the Yahoo acquisition. I'm happy to hear that it won't disappear.

I've recently switched to raindrop.io, which is an excellent replacement. Bookmarking serves two purposes for me:

1) It provides a way to record sites I don't visit often, which I hope I'll be able to find easily in the future if needed.

2) It provides me with easy access to the sites I visit regularly on all devices, without restricting me to a specific browser, and with an aesthetically pleasing and intuitive UI like Speed Dial


I want the record of these two kinds of pages to live in one place, and while Delicious and Pinboard were close, I felt that they never quite met that need.

someSven 9 hours ago 0 replies      
They once deleted my account, because the email address stoped working and I forgot to change it. I thougth I'd had a backup, but then I realized it was without tags and comments. Since then I mistrust such services, better to store stuff on the own devices.
joshu 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Woohoo! Congrats, Maciej!
eltoozero 9 hours ago 1 reply      
Best product URL ever, http://del.icio.us

You will be missed.

andrei_says_ 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Love the announcement. It is so clear, direct, and funny and makes almost anything written by a corporation sound weird and artificial.


> Do not attempt to compete with Pinboard.


AmIFirstToThink 10 hours ago 1 reply      
This makes me happy. So happy.

Two thumbs up.

Keep doing what you were doing, Pinboard, do not ever buy into the argument that changed Delicious from what it was.

tomphoolery 1 hour ago 0 replies      
> Do not attempt to compete with Pinboard.

that made me laugh! OH NOES ITS A MONORPOLY!!11

triangleman 8 hours ago 1 reply      
Maciej, when you finally tame this site, can I email you and see if my old bookmarks are lurking around in there? I've got over 9000 and I have exported them before but somehow all the tags were lost.
wonderous 10 hours ago 1 reply      
Might be worth noting Pinboard has a history with YC and HN:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11633278
tra3 10 hours ago 3 replies      
I was sad when Yahoo bought delicious 'cause I knew it was over. But Delicious was the first of its kind, and provided really good discovery. I dont understand why pinboard bought it. To preserve the bookmarks?
stared 9 hours ago 0 replies      
BTW: Which Chrome extension do you use to save links? It seems that there are a few different ones.

(For me it's Pinboard Plus, but occasionally it fails.)

bambax 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Congrats! this is excellent news, and simply, well, excellent.

Awaiting the news regarding Bed Bug Registry vs booking.com

mtkd 9 hours ago 0 replies      
absolutely love pinboard - but it has some cookie timeout thing that I need to log back in more often than I should

also, well played Maciej

newman314 7 hours ago 2 replies      
One thing I always wanted was a personal search engine for my Delicious link content (and Pocket saves).

That way, I would have able to just use that as external memory for those tip-of-the-tongue moments.

Crontab 7 hours ago 1 reply      
I am having a hard time understanding why this purchase makes sense, unless one simply wanted to resell the domain name. Pinboard, to me, is more valuable than Delicious is.
draw_down 10 hours ago 0 replies      
The coup de grace.
coleca 7 hours ago 0 replies      
TIL Delicious hadn't already been killed by Yahoo!

All kidding aside though they were one of the first to have a really cool domain name. It will always be del.icio.us to me.

Analemma_ 10 hours ago 2 replies      
I almost can't believe this isn't one of Maciej's snarky satirical posts, if only because there's no way he would do this with stock or debt and so it must be an all-cash transaction, and I didn't realize that he was either pulling in that much or Delicious was that desperate.

I signed up for an archival Pinboard account last weekend though, so maybe it was my $25 that put it over the top ;)

fiatjaf 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Best acquisition letter ever written.
wkoszek 10 hours ago 0 replies      
That's why Maciej wasn't replying to any e-mails recently! Who knows. Maybe "Delicious under new management" will NOT be a "slowest growing unicorn"
aaronbrethorst 9 hours ago 0 replies      
Congratulations, Maciej. This is way too funny. I'd love to hear the back story on how you ended up acquiring Delicious at some point.
devoply 10 hours ago 6 replies      
I wonder how much he paid for it. Last I heard he was making something like 250k per year. I would expect delicious to go for a few million at least. Did he buy it for a song, or did he get investors or funding?
erickhill 9 hours ago 1 reply      
If you aren't familiar with Maciej Cegowski, the creator and owner of Pinboard, his Twitter feed is worth a follow. He has an excellent sense of humor and timely snark.


Jerry2 8 hours ago 0 replies      
How do I export my bookmarks out of Delicious? Option to do that has been removed :(
tartarin 10 hours ago 4 replies      
https://blog.pinboard.in/2017/06/pinboard_acquires_delicious..."If youre a Delicious user, you will have to find another place to save your bookmarks. The site will stay online. but on June 15, I will put Delicious into read-only mode. You won't be able to save new bookmarks after that date, or use the API."https://del.icio.us/export"We're sorry, but due to heavy load on our database we are no longer able to offer an export function. Our engineers are working on this and we will restore it as soon as possible."
nilved 8 hours ago 0 replies      
This is the greatest thing I've read in a while.
dejv 8 hours ago 1 reply      
Next acquisition target should be Instapaper.
notadoc 8 hours ago 0 replies      
I had no idea delicious was still around.
adam12 10 hours ago 0 replies      
I rarely accessed any of my 5,000 bookmarks anyway.
VectorLock 8 hours ago 0 replies      
How much do you think it cost em?
cperciva 10 hours ago 5 replies      
For the record, Tarsnap has no plans to acquire Dropbox.
spearo77 10 hours ago 2 replies      
TL/DR: Do not attempt to compete with Pinboard
webwanderings 9 hours ago 1 reply      
vladsanchez 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Delicious! I thought they were already DEAD, and I wish they were. They messed up my bookmarks once so badly that I really want them out of business.

Ah, and I don't give a damn about Pinboard or Google Bookmarks either.

I only use Pocket.

williamle8300 8 hours ago 2 replies      
> Do not attempt to compete with Pinboard.

Wha... not sure if he's letting the success get to his head, or he is actually trying to ward off competitors. Real innovative people are motivated by challenges like this so he's gonna have to eat his hat for saying that.

WebAssembly: Mozilla Won ocallahan.org
570 points by nachtigall  20 hours ago   331 comments top 25
jhpriestley 11 hours ago 6 replies      
People seem way too optimistic about web assembly.

The elephant in the room is download size. A wasm photoshop, even if it works and performs well, is still a multi-gigabyte "web page". The browser is in no way set up to handle that.

Even simple things will be huge compared to javascript webpage. Let's say you write your todo app in Python with Qt bindings. Sure, wasm lets you run it on the web. You'll just have to ship Qt, the python interpreter, low-level graphics rendering code, shims for system calls in the standard library ... overall you'll end up way, way heavier than the javascript + DOM version. Probably 100MB or something.

wasm as it's implemented is going to have a very narrow band of usefulness. Basically, isolated computational modules (e.g. a physics simulation), and games. The games won't be, like, "Call of Duty on the web", they'll be little flash-type games with not too many assets. Creators will have to put a lot of effort into asset loading and compression to get around browser limitations.

fpoling 19 hours ago 1 reply      
This article in few lines lists key differences between PNaCl and WebAssembly:

---WebAssembly defines no new platform APIs other than some APIs for loading and linking WebAssembly code, relying on standards-based Web APIs for everything else. WebAssembly differs from asm.js by defining a bytecode format with some new operations JS doesn't have, so some spec work was required (and has been done!). Like asm.js, WebAssembly application call-stacks are maintained by the JS VM, outside the memory addressable by the application, which reduces the exploitability of application bugs. (Though, again like asm.js and unlike PNaCl, the compiler is trusted.)---

Touche 14 hours ago 6 replies      
WebAssembly is nice and all, but I don't understand why Mozilla is so obsessed with this feature that will be useable by 0.01% of applications. Meanwhile they are falling far behind in a variety of features that are useful to a much bigger % of the web. Safari and Edge have leapfrogged Firefox in providing the important things to web developers.
tete 19 hours ago 3 replies      
I think this is a good thing. It probably prevented a new DirectX style dark age of the web.

Probably! I don't pretend to be able predict what path companies would have went in the next few years.

It's really good to see that there is a will to agree and that there is more than one player. Could always be more, also for keeping standards sane. (WebSQL officially failed because there isn't more variety)

TekMol 15 hours ago 3 replies      
What are the main benefits of WebAssembly over asm.js?

I understand that asm.js was a subset of JavaScript that allowed the compiler to create faster code. For example because it could be sure that variable types do not change during runtime.

But what do we gain with WebAssembly? Faster download+compilation times? How much faster?

ericfrederich 15 hours ago 4 replies      
It seems there is this effort to get C/C++ code performing fast inside of a browser... then at the same time there seems to be an effort to get people to stop coding in C/C++ altogether and switch to something more memory safe.

Go or Rust for example. Also, I watched a talk from DConf and saw that D is adding memory safety as well. You need to mark any part of code doing pointer arithmetic as "system code" or something like that.

I think it's a shame one couldn't have happened before the other. I wish something like D or Go or Nim or something else would have won. Then there would be this effort to get that language fast on the browser.

Is anything I'm saying making sense? I don't know enough about WebAsm, is it really tied tightly to C or could Go or Rust or some future version of statically typed Python become a first-class citizen?

scriptproof 17 hours ago 1 reply      
Asm.js was a brillant idea, but wasm is more like a bytecode. This is where is the part from NaCl the author missed. Wasm is derived from asm.js but also an improvement on LLVM to make a portable bytecode, that LLVM is not. One more step in the LLVM toolchain to get portability...
Andrex 11 hours ago 1 reply      
This is just my personal viewpoint with nothing to back it up, but I doubt Google ever seriously wanted other browsers to implement PNaCl. As this post says, it was never specced and Google's big push for it was in Chrome apps on the Chrome Web Store.

Also, wasn't asm.js just a subset of JS? This line confuses me:

> asm.js and PNaCl represented quite different visions for how C/C++ code should be supported on the Web

Yes you could compile C to asm.js, but it would still be compiling it to JS at the end of the day. WebAssembly is completely different in that regard.

therealmarv 17 hours ago 2 replies      
Is there anywhere a "hello world" or simple DOM modification program which I can implement with WebAssembly?
k__ 17 hours ago 2 replies      
Is WASM platform independent?
johnhattan 15 hours ago 3 replies      
One of the best things about Flash was that you could pack up all your bytecode and bitmaps and vectors and sounds and fonts into a single compressed SWF file that contained your entire application/game/demo. That made it really easy to do stuff like double-click-able client demos and deliverables for websites. Ditto for Java and JAR files.

Looks like the "compressed bytecode that runs really fast" part is now a reality. I'm hoping they'll work on making deliverable packages that are convenient for programmers and users.

Anyone know if there is there anything like this in the works?

z3t4 13 hours ago 3 replies      
Seems like a lot of complexity for very little gain in performance. Optimizing JavaScript often gain 100x performance, and after that rewriting it to Web-assembly would only gain up to 4x performance.
diafygi 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Will there ever be a way to have constant-time functions in WebAssembly? Relying on WebCrypto primitives is fairly limiting.
DamonHD 19 hours ago 1 reply      
Interesting perspective. I've largely kept out of that fight for many reasons, but it is interesting to see a counter-argument to the Mozilla/Firefox just apes Chrome story.
moonfern 15 hours ago 0 replies      
In 2016 the global games market had $99.6Bn revenue and a 8.5% YoY. PC had a 27% +4.2% market share, TV 29% +4.5% , mobile 27% +23.7% tablets 10% +4.5% and casual webgames 5% -7.5%. (source:Newzoo)Google with it's presence in mobile, tablets and web seems to be the winner, edge will support webassembly in the future and mozilla which is much smaller than opera on mobile reminds me of Xerox.
alex_duf 14 hours ago 0 replies      
I wonder if we can do scala native -> llvm -> webassembly. Anyone tried?
markdog12 11 hours ago 1 reply      
Keep in mind nacl/pnacl, as a more mature technology, is ahead of WebAssembly wrt features, such as threads, simd, etc.

I know these are coming to WebAssembly, but who knows how long it'll take.

Vinnl 17 hours ago 4 replies      
I don't really like the headline. I don't want Mozilla to "win", and I don't think Mozilla wants to either; I want the open web to flourish.

That said, the article is very informative, and well-balanced. It was really good of Google and the other browsers to join the wasm bandwagon. And yes, although as the author himself points out, "proclaiming a "winner" is unimportant or even counterproductive", Mozilla does deserve a lot of credit here.

SimonPStevens 16 hours ago 13 replies      
It's worth pointing out that Mozilla can only continue to put pressure on Google and fight for the open web if people continue to use Firefox and support them. Consider switching to Firefox even if you prefer Chrome. Report websites that don't support FF. We are all better off for the existence of Mozilla, and strong viable competition to Chrome and IE.
frik 12 hours ago 0 replies      
I can't wait to see ad networks abuse WebAssembly. /s
desireco42 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Which I believe was Brendan Eich initiative. Mozilla without him is just not the same project.
__name__ 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Mozilla wins a battle but loses the war
ericfrederich 15 hours ago 2 replies      
WebAssembly and PNaCL always seemed like a hack. A very elegant thought-out hack, but still a hack. It required a 64 bit OS but could only ever operate in 32 bit space.

Should have been dead on arrival because of that fact alone. For something that was trying to bring C/C++ and video games into a browser setting a 4GB max on memory should have been a non-starter.

midnitewarrior 17 hours ago 3 replies      
Congrats for winning!

This does not change Firefox being on its final death throes though.

Chrome won where it counts.

hacker_9 15 hours ago 3 replies      
WebAssembly will finally put an end to the constant battle between browser vendors as to who has the fastest Javascript Engine. The endless benchmarks about how V8 is faster, or Chakra is faster, or SpiderMonkey is faster, and so on and so on. Hundreds of thousands of millions of man hours have been poured into building the fastest JS parsers imaginable, and now WebAssembly is going to come along and side step the whole thing in one go by moving the parsing stage off of the client.

Javascript parsing technology will go down in history as ultimately the biggest waste of time that mankind ever indulged in, all because no one stood up and questioned if this language was even a good fit in the first place. In a few years the WebAssembly creators may even win the Noble Peace Prize for finally ending the biggest battle in the never ending "browser war".

Uber Fires Anthony Levandowski nytimes.com
609 points by coloneltcb  2 days ago   280 comments top 28
tmh79 2 days ago 5 replies      

Here is some context for those who aren't current on the case.

One result of the injunction (all of the hearings up until now) was that uber needs to use all of its power to compel levandowski to testify, the extreme limit of which is firing him. Uber followed through as was legally required

This is one part of a number of things that came out of preliminary injunction hearings, other parts are (1) the breadth of the case is much smaller than as originally filed, its now about trade secrets, not about patent infringement (2) Waymo is allowed a bit more indepth "discover" to see if they can find evidence of their tech in ubers documents or in ubers hardware itself.

Legally, there is no inference that can be drawn from this to imply uber is guilty, they have willfully carried out a court order.

Uber still has a self driving car program, that is staffed by a few hundred engineers.

The case against levandowski has been referred to a federal prosecutor to review the possiblity of criminal charges against levandowski, if I was his lawyer and he was in this position, I would likely refer him to "plead the fifth" regardless of his guilt.

The case is most definitely still going to trial

throwaway13234 2 days ago 1 reply      
Statement from Levandowski's lawyers:


"The bite of the Courts May 11, 2017 Preliminary Injunction Order, as it relates to nonparty Anthony Levandowski, can be summarized quite simply: 'Waive your Fifth Amendment rights... or I will have you fired. The choice is yours, Mr. Levandowski.' But, even when framed as a choice, this command runs counter to nearly a half century of United States Supreme Court precedent, beginning with Garrity v. State of New Jersey, 385 U.S. 493 (1967), in which the Court held that the Fifth Amendment forbids a government entity from threatening an individual with the choice between self-incrimination and job forfeiture. Id. at 497, 500. As the Supreme Court observed in Garrity, the option to lose [ones] means of livelihood or pay the penalty of self-incrimination is the antithesis of free choice to speak out or to remain silent. Id. at 497. As the Supreme Court made clear, whenevera state actor imposes this choice between the rock and the whirlpool, it engages in unlawful constitutional compulsion, which, among other things, operates to immunize any resulting testimonial statements."

Isn't anyone else here bothered by the due process implications of Judge Alsup's demand to force Levandowski to give up a Constitutional right or be fired? I'm generally a fan of Alsup, but this sets terrible precedence.

ziszis 2 days ago 2 replies      
Link to formal termination letter: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/files/2017/0...

The termination letter indicates that the termination is for cause and may have implications on stock awards and other compensation:

"Under the Stock Award and other agreements, you are entitled to 20 days to cure the events that give rise to this termination for Cause. This letter constitutes the prior writtennotice triggering the commencement of that 20day period."

stevebmark 2 days ago 1 reply      
This is incredible. It looks like Uber is trying to pin this on him. I really hope it's true (and proven in court) that Uber encouraged him to steal secrets and start a company with the intention of Uber buying his half-assed startup. Because this firing totally fits the bill of Uber executives' public behavior, trying to shift the blame and throw people under the bus.
gumby 2 days ago 5 replies      
I was thinking simply, "too little, too late" but then realized this could be quite interesting.

Uber's model in most domains is to push hard over the line in the hopes of moving that line. More charitably this could be called "ask for forgiveness rather than permission". So canning Levendowski could be seen as simply a case of this.

But Google's suit is against Uber, not Levendowski, who could now spill beans on all sorts of unsuspected malfeasance. At this point what has he got to lose? If he decides to cooperate with google things could get very interesting.

philip1209 2 days ago 2 replies      
Oh wow, I just noticed under the related stories that Travis's mother was killed and father was seriously injured in a boating accident this week:


dafty4 2 days ago 1 reply      
Are there truly that many Lidar-related trade "secrets" that Google knows about that suppliers and competitors at Velodyne, SPIE, ex-military researcers, etc. don't already?

If Levandowski is targeted by federal prosecutors, can he argue inevitable discovery based on existing public domain principles and papers (textbooks, etc.)?

I find it hard to believe that Google is the only innovator in Lidar thus far. It just seems like they are because it's now cool.

mikekij 2 days ago 3 replies      
I would think Google's argument would only need to be "Uber spent $600M on a 9-month old company". That alone is a huge red-flag, no?
7ero 2 days ago 0 replies      
At this point, I think this is a move to slow Uber's entry into the market, there is probably irrevocable damage because I would imagine it's hard to prevent their IP from being used.

I wonder how things would have played out if Otto was never acquired.

rmellow 2 days ago 1 reply      
Not mentioned in the article:

Uber is investing in a self-driving research unit in Toronto, Canada led by Raquel Urtasun [1].

Seems like a move to dodge all this Waymo brouhaha and benefit from Toronto's deep learning scene.

[1] https://www.techcrunch.com/2017/05/08/uber-hires-raquel-urta...

ChuckMcM 2 days ago 1 reply      
Not exactly unexpected given the court order earlier, interesting bit about how he has 20 days to decide if he wants to rectify the 'cause'. Presumably that would mean admitting stuff that he previously felt would incriminate himself so doing so would put him into more jeopardy on some axis.

This has got to be painful for all the parties involved, I can only hope that people who are watching are thinking to themselves "hmm, seems like some bad choices." And whether or not they are really bad or just being painted that way, it gives you a sense of how everything will be used to craft a narrative around the sequence of events that serves the purposes of the people doing the crafting, not necessarily the participants about whom the narrative speaks.

Having experienced personally the effects of bad actors trying to create a narrative that differed markedly from 'reality' in order to protect their own vulnerability I know how pulling only certain "facts" out of the history can tell a different story than the truth.

openmosix 2 days ago 3 replies      
Interesting. The situation between Uber and Levendowski always reminded me of the prisoner dilemma. If one bails on the other, might the other starts talking about what really happened? I think that staying together would have been the best course of action for Uber. Very interesting to see how this will develop.
Kiro 2 days ago 2 replies      
What if Uber is actually innocent? I've always just assumed they are guilty and planned this all along.
Overtonwindow 2 days ago 3 replies      
This issue brings to mind the fight over Phillip Shoemaker at Apple. Self driving cars and the engineering behind it seems highly specialized. Will this case with Levandowski put pressure on engineers to stay put, a stronger, tacit non-compete and no-poaching rule?
ianamartin 2 days ago 0 replies      
If he stays out of jail re: the criminal prosecution, the hype will die down, people will forget about it, the internet outrage machine will move on, and he'll do something else and be fine.
tyingq 2 days ago 2 replies      
Of course, whatever salary he was making is far less interesting than the direct benefit of the original Otto acquisition.
jacquesm 2 days ago 1 reply      
Surprised that took this long. Hot potato dropped, now let's see where the damage claims will point.
aioprisan 2 days ago 1 reply      
That too much longer than expected. What was Uber thinking?
walshemj 1 day ago 0 replies      
Isn't anyone concerned that you can be fired for excising your rights under the constitution?
joering2 2 days ago 1 reply      
... comes as a result of his involvement in a legal battle between Uber and Waymo, the self-driving technology unit spun out of Google last year.

Honest question - can they do that to him, or anyone else, before guilt is actually proven? What if the result is that nothing is found?? Can he counter-sue for wrongful termination??

Next time if you are company X and are angry your employee Y left for company Z, just sue Z in hopes they will let Y go.

wdb 1 day ago 0 replies      
What stops Uber from hiring him again as a contractor?
ProfessorLayton 2 days ago 1 reply      
Interesting. Could Levandowski throw Uber under the bus without incriminating himself?

Additionally, I wonder if Uber has clawback agreements in place for their Otto acquisition.

accountyaccount 2 days ago 0 replies      
probably a good move
Arizhel 2 days ago 2 replies      
>So yeah, it happens; it's just a spectacularly bad idea for the police to do it. If they hadn't declined to file charges, my friend and another murder victim would probably still be alive today

Sorry about your friend, but why is it a "spectacularly bad idea" for police to do so? What alternative do they have? If the sole victim is unwilling to cooperate with the investigation and subsequent trial, their chances of actually succeeding in imprisoning that scumbag are approximately zero. If you want to blame someone, go find the stupid, selfish woman who wanted to "let it drop" 5 years ago. Remember that old saying about evil flourishing because good people do nothing.

sfdghjkl2345678 2 days ago 0 replies      
It's ON!!!!
AngelloPozo 2 days ago 0 replies      
Uber followed through on their public warning. Doesn't look good I must say.
Everhusk 1 day ago 1 reply      
It's sad to see Uber destroy a talented engineer's credibility like this... Moment of silence for the man who once went out and built a self driving motorcycle on his own [1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CYGT97i8qU

yeukhon 2 days ago 10 replies      
I think no one will ever dare to hire Levandowski. His career is over. Maybe still too early to draw any conclusion, but I can't seem to have any counter potential excuse or reason to believe the self-driving programs weren't stolen. Why on earth would someone like him do that? Conceited arrogance?

Now I don't understand taking the Fifth. If everyone takes the Fifth, how do you convict someone? Find evidences, and have the a grand jury find the person guilty?

Ohio Sues 5 Major Drug Companies For 'Fueling Opioid Epidemic' npr.org
485 points by CrocodileStreet  1 day ago   338 comments top 29
twakefield 1 day ago 8 replies      
I think I've seen this movie before. This looks like it's headed down the path of the Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement [0].

Here's the playbook:

1) A.G.s and private lawyers start filing lawsuits.

2) Defendants realized there is potentially catastrophic liability here and start negotiating a master settlement agreement ("MSA") whereby the states agree not to sue in the future in exchange for a set payment schedule to the plaintiffs.[1]

3) States A.G.s realize this is a great publicity opportunity to leverage their career into other elected office and governors realize this a real revenue stream.

4) So, interests aligned and there is a settlement.

5) Lawyers make a TON of money on their fee schedule set forth in the MSA. So much so, the Tobacco MSA lawyers were securitizing their future fees in private markets.

6) Bankers swoop in and start pitching states on the securitization of MSA payments for states to cover current deficit shortfalls.

7) Bankers make a point or two on the securitization deal proceeds ($10s or $100s of millions).

8) States leverage their future payments under the MSA to fill budget gaps where ever possible. Some allocate a small portion of the proceeds to the victims of the malfeasance but many do not because there are better ways to get future votes.


Full disclosure: I was once a young public finance analyst working 80-100 hour weeks building financial models to securitize Tobacco MSA payments...slight grudge still held.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agre...

[1] Tobacco stocks jumped on news of the settlement because a large known liability is much better than an unknown one.

EDIT: slight clarification.

sanguy 1 day ago 8 replies      
After watching a 30 year old female overdose in a parking lot and not being able to be saved by first responders or emergency responders I've realized this problem is far more prevalent then most of us realize. This is a epidemic that is playing out under our very noses all across America.

This is just as dangerous as terrorists or any other think that goes bump in the night - it will destroy this country if not stopped.

Not sure what the solution is but this looks to be a good start to push for controls needed.

kartan 1 day ago 2 replies      
"accuses the companies of engaging in a sustained marketing campaign to downplay the addiction risks of the prescription opioid drugs they sell and to exaggerate the benefits of their use for health problems such as chronic pain."

This is very relevant, from the article. This is the accusation. I have seen very generic comments in this thread that don't take this information into account.

pacaro 1 day ago 5 replies      
The pharma companies have some liability, but there was a perfect storm

The "war on drugs", and the racially motivated moral panic about crack cocaine and addiction created a social attitude that casts addiction as a moral failing

Inadequate safety net healthcare provisions lead people to the cheapest treatment option, generic opiates fit this bill

jaggi1 1 day ago 5 replies      
My wife was facing a burnout at the work. She was needlessly scared and suffered panic attacks. It is something I have gone through too and coped. But in her case because I love her more than I love myself I decided to take her to a doctor who then refereed her to a psychologist who then prescribed her drugs which on quick research appeared to be his plan to keep her on those forever. My expectation was that the doctor would suggest her some mild drugs and ask to take up Yoga or some other hobbies and assure her that everything is in fact alright with her.

He on other hand made a big deal out of whole thing.

We decided to trash all the medicines and lived happily without any issues.

My doctors have given me opioids so many times and I typically throw them out. Why take a substance like that if pain is bearable ?

AceJohnny2 1 day ago 4 replies      
I have a friend who lives in Columbus, going to Ohio State University. He regularly "regales" us of stories of the social and economic blight there. It's hard to imagine from the west coast.

Last week, he posted a picture of the Columbus Dispatch (the local newspaper), which featured a full-front-page ad for painkillers.


Of course, the newspaper isn't what it used to be, and has been recently sold due to lagging sales by the private family that owned it.

And when I shared this NPR article with this, he added "well maybe things got better, there are no longer overflow trailers in front of the City Morgue. But maybe they just moved them out back, I didn't search for them". And: https://coroner.franklincountyohio.gov/opiate-crisis-summit/...

lr4444lr 1 day ago 4 replies      
I have a hard time with the notion that doctors themselves were conpletely innocent bystanders merely "duped" by disinformation on these drugs.
DisposableMoi 1 day ago 0 replies      
I'm going to chip in here as I feel I'm qualified to do so as a recovering hard drug addict (clean almost a year).

Addiction like most human conditions is complex, to debate this article it helps to have a clearer understanding of what causes addiction. I'm going to state my beliefs as truth, they are after all my truth.

Addiction comes in many shapes, substance misuse, alcoholism, food addiction, porn addiction, consumerism and gambling to name some. They are not caused by the substance (or object etc) per se, i will paraphrase from a talk i will link to, if your grandma breaks her hip and is given medical quality opiates to relive her pain, she doesn't suddenly become a junkie.

Addiction is borne from the inate human desire to form relationships. If we cannot form relationships with people (because we are socially isolated, homeless and have no one to turn to, have issues that no one else understands for example) some people will substitute those relationship with people for relationships with "stuff". You may recognise in yourself that you do this with technology.

For some people the bonds they form are with more destructive thinks that $400 juice machines or the latest apple product, they are with substances that provide temporary feelings of acceptance but simultaneously corrode your very human-ness.

It's not strictly correct to say that one drug leads to another; shit, disconnected lives lead to substance abuse (rich and famous people can be isolated too) it's also not fully correct that medicating those peopleAddicted to opiates with a controlled amount of pharma grade opiates is the answer also, that just gives themA life sentence into opiod jail.

The answers to the problem require analysing why the problem exists.. whether you are wealthy or poor, it's clear that we are further apart as people and further isolates into the imaginary world of the internet more than ever. It's not a political question, similarly the answer is not political but sociological.

For anyone who has 15 minutes to listen to a powerful TED talk that will explain why the homeless guy and the middle class college kid both develop drug problems, watch this:


It could equip you with a completely different perspective about problems and solutions to addiction and also introduce you to the Portugal way of beating the problem.

Peace and Love (off to deanonymise)

drugpusher 1 day ago 0 replies      
I would think a key piece of evidence would be the IMS reports which show doctor level prescription data. The companies had to know that there were a lot of outlier doctors prescribing huge amounts of opioids way above the norm. (For those that don't know, you can buy data which shows what individual doctors prescribe. All drug companies buy this to know their market share and plan salesforce activities. You better believe they knew when things were going off the rails.)
gehwartzen 1 day ago 3 replies      
Seeing a lot of comments sugesting that strictly controlling the supply side is bad because lots of people legitimately in pain would be suffering. So how do other countries deal with this? The US consumes something like 80% of the worlds opioid supply
menacingly 1 day ago 0 replies      
There is a dangerous knee-jerk "but my grandma is in pain" reaction when this topic is brought up. I'm confident that we can settle somewhere between people dying in agony and _deliberately_ engineering super addictive dope then lying about it.
kristofferR 1 day ago 0 replies      
Here's a fantastic article which makes it clear why the drug makers deserves getting sued:


OliverJones 16 hours ago 0 replies      
I fear this is just another example from the century-long tradition of politicians exploiting addiction to get their names in the news. A couple of years ago Johann Hari write a fine book on addiction and its legalities.


The US has systematically demonized addicted persons since the end of alcohol prohibition. Demonizing them has served a few purposes.

1. promoting police employment and funding. The forerunner to the US DEA was the federal prohibition police force. Lately this has greatly expanded to include civil forfeiture.

2. separating people into us-vs-them classes. "Addicts are bad, so I'm good." This was explicitly racist back when police and pols could get away with being explicitly racist.

3. giving US pols on the world stage the self-image of righteousness.

Now that the addiction epidemic has hit, well, white working, people, the demonization doesn't work as well as it did when it hit people who don't look like red-state attorneys general and governors. So ya gotta demonize somebody? Why not big pharma? They're a juicy target.

Look. Addiction sucks. It's hard to kick. It makes people weak, silly, and vulnerable. But it doesn't make them evil.

skookumchuck 1 day ago 2 replies      
Attacking the supply doesn't work and never has worked. Even worse, it sentences a large number of people to die in agony because they cannot get pain relief.
KC8ZKF 1 day ago 0 replies      
The Econtalk podcast recently had a episode about the economics of opiate addiction. How people become addicted, how the drugs are distributed, etc.

[1] http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/01/sam_quinones_on.htm...

vic-traill 1 day ago 0 replies      
I take full responsibility for all substance abuse in my life.

I will, however, note that doctors, pharmacists and pharmaceutical companies make money on the front end of opioid addiction, and then the same groups make money on the back end as addicts work to break their addiction.

There must be lots of Opioid Mansions somewhere.

Bakary 19 hours ago 0 replies      
The question is, how did we manage to create a society hellish enough that some citizens are reduced to having opioid abuse as one of their only means of escape?
axaxs 1 day ago 1 reply      
I've read a lot here. I live in Kentucky, which as part of the midwest, is as or more affected than others.

Giving people access is not a solution. Prescribing opioides or heroin is not a solution.

For all that think drug use is a personal issue and should be legal, you are wrong. Drug use affects EVERYONE. It affects the parents, the family, the friends first. And when a user becomes desperate, it affects innocent people.

We MUST end the drug epidemic by any means necessary. No, I'm not saying lock people up for weed...that's stupid. But America needs to be tough on opioides, from both foreign and our own pharmaceuticals.

cagrimmett 23 hours ago 0 replies      
I grew up in a small suburb of Cleveland. My parents still live there and they tell me that not a day goes by without seeing another overdose in the paper. They've become so common that they stop running stories, they just add them in the obituaries. People I went to grade school with are among the overdose deaths, too.

I'm not sure Mike DeWine's lawsuit will do anything, or that it is even the best move to reducing overdoses. But damn, it is heartbreaking watching so many people die that way.

bactrian 1 day ago 2 replies      
The guy who did Silk Road was involved in the deaths of 6 users. He got life without parole.

These drug company execs belong in prison. They've directly and knowingly destroyed millions of lives.

jonaswi 20 hours ago 0 replies      
As an outsider the heavy use of those opioids in the U.S always seemed very troubling to me. Can someone explain me what doctors led to prescribe those drugs on such a regular basis? Shouldn't the doctor monitor the patients drug use and be very careful with drugs that are known to be addictive?
pthreads 1 day ago 1 reply      
I have very little confidence this will go anywhere. If anything the pharmaceutical companies will pay a small fine and agree to better inform patients and doctors, control supply chain better etc.. Nothing else is going to come out of this.

I get the feeling that this is just political showmanship. I wouldn't be surprised if the governor of Ohio is running for office in 2020. He has been making the rounds of talkshows trying to sound very concerned about people's health.

11thEarlOfMar 1 day ago 2 replies      
This is a recurring phenomenon in the US:

Opium/Morphine in the late 1800s:

"Throughout the late 1800s, the opiates (morphine and opium) continued to be distributed widely in patent medicines. There was also a widespread physicians' practice of prescribing opiates for menstrual and menopausal disorders. Too, there was extravagant advertising of the opiate patent medicines as able to relieve "female troubles."

Women, it seemed, had become the prevalent class of opiate users. Prescription and patent medicines containing the substances were advertised and accepted without question. Also, this was a convenient, gentile drug for a dependent lady who would never be seen drinking in public. "The extent to which alcohol-drinking by women was frowned upon may also [in addition to opiate medicines] have contributed to the excess of women among opiate users. Husbands drank alcohol in the saloon; wives took opium at home" (Brecher, 1972)."[0]

Amphetamines in the 1930s:

"Abuse of the drug began during the 1930s, when it was marketed under the name Benzedrine and sold in an over-the-counter inhaler. During World War II, amphetamines were widely distributed to soldiers to combat fatigue and improve both mood and endurance, and after the war physicians began to prescribe amphetamines to fight depression. As legal usage of amphetamines increased, a black market emerged. Common users of illicit amphetamines included truck drivers on long commutes and athletes looking for better performance. Students referred to the drug as "pep pills" and used them to aid in studying."[1]

LSD in the 1950s:

"Non-therapeutic use of LSD increased throughout the late 1950s and 1960s. Among the first groups to use LSD recreationally were research study participants, physicians, psychiatrists, and other mental health professionals who later distributed the drug among their friends. Prior to 1962, LSD was available only on a small scale to those who had connections in the medical field, as all the LSD was produced by Sandoz Laboratories, in Basel Switzerland, and then distributed to health professionals. However, the drug was not difficult to produce in a chemical laboratory. The formula could be purchased for 50 cents from the US patent office, and the LSD itself could be stored inside blotting paper. Soon a black market for LSD in the US emerged."[2]

On the one hand, it's tragic. On the other, these events seem to have a similar arc and we should not be surprised to see opioids taken off the market and criminalized, like Opium and Amphetamines.

[0] http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/history/casey1.htm

[1], [2] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/buyers/s...

randyrand 1 day ago 0 replies      
Shouldn't the drug companies sue back for the state not having proper regulations?
revelation 1 day ago 2 replies      
You would think persuading doctors to prescribe unnecessary opioids is the kind of crime that has the DEA kicking down doors and arresting managers.
wnevets 1 day ago 1 reply      
Stop worrying, the free market will fix it any day now.
hoodoof 1 day ago 1 reply      
sidcool 1 day ago 0 replies      
May be an unpopular opinion on here, but this and some others are an example of a Capitalist system with little oversight. There will always be people who abuse freedom. They need a powerful law enforcement oversight. Same goes for some tech Giants too. And hospitals. And gun industry. Etc.
c3534l 1 day ago 0 replies      
Come on, really? It's a goddamned opioid. If a doctor isn't aware that an opioid is potentially addictive, then that is a really bad doctor. OxyContin is better than morphine, so any drug epidemic (which doesn't really exist, people have been doing opioids/opiates for a very long time) is lessened, not exacerbated, by substituting older opiates with more modern opioids.
Kerbal Space Program Acquired by Take-Two Interactive kerbalspaceprogram.com
549 points by Impossible  1 day ago   325 comments top 22
TeMPOraL 1 day ago 19 replies      
KSP was possibly my best entertainment spending ever. It definitely is the best game for me in terms of costs / time played. If you haven't played it yet, do yourself a favour and buy it now. If you have a kid with even tangential interest in space, get a copy for them.

Side effects of playing KSP include:

- getting an intuitive feel for basic orbital mechanics

- finding yourself reading up on actual math to better understand what's happening with your rockets (and how to build more efficient one)

- no longer being able to watch most space movies due to frustration caused by the filmmakers not grokking basic orbital physics

(RE the last point - after Gravity, Interstellar, The Martian and The Expanse series, getting basic spaceflight wrong should no longer be accepted in popular media. Looking at you, makers of The 100.)

jesseryoung 1 day ago 2 replies      
Hopefully the game will be better off under Take-Two (I am not familiar with their past treatment of indy-like games like this)

I have read several stories online about how poorly SQUAD treated the core development team of KSP: https://www.develop-online.net/news/squad-devs-blast-kerbal-...

mhh__ 1 day ago 1 reply      
Kerbal Space Program is a game that we're quite lucky to have. No microtransactions, no DRM, just sciencey goodness.

Except for those making it, who Squad apparently didn't bother paying anywhere near what they were worth.

mediocrejoker 1 day ago 6 replies      
I hope this goes well. I would love to see a remake that retains the exact same gameplay with more modern graphics. Hopefully all the people who paid for the current in-development version are not left high and dry in terms of updates and bugfixes.

I also have heard the rumors that the team was not treated well, and that the game was never really the focus of the company. I think it may have been a side project of one of the developers on a totally unrelated product (ie. not even a game).

Orangeair 1 day ago 3 replies      
I sometimes get the feeling that this is the only game HN plays. When people talk about not being able to switch away from Windows due to games, it seems like someone always responds, "Well Kerbal Space Program runs on Linux and that's all I care about." I don't think I've ever seen articles similar to this one about other games gain as much traction. Can't think of very many articles about games getting to the top of HN at all, actually, unless they're about John Carmack writing one.
parisidau 1 day ago 0 replies      
Shameless self-promotion, but together with some friends I wrote a book for O'Reilly Media on KSP!

Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Kerbal-Players-Guide-Easiest-Program/...

O'Reilly: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920035138.do

Safari: https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/the-kerbal-pl...

nirav72 1 day ago 1 reply      
I just logged into my account and grabbed the installers and portable zip files for the last 2 versions. Just in case, take-two's influence somehow breaks the KSP experience I've come to love and enjoy.
xigency 1 day ago 6 replies      
Video game company acquisitions can be brutal. I hope everything goes well for the team now and several years in the future.
pawadu 1 day ago 4 replies      
Whats next? Dwarf Fortress acquired by EA?
tangue 1 day ago 1 reply      
I hope they won't fuck up the game. As a side note I didn't suspect there was that much people working on this game.
Graham24 1 day ago 2 replies      
I await the release of Grand Theft Planet.
cydonian_monk 1 day ago 1 reply      
Hopefully this means things will "improve" without turning the community into a sterile, lifeless environmemt, but we'll see. Maybe not much changes, maybe they take the IP and run with it. Who knows.

Must say it was weird to stumble on this news here on HN first instead of on the KSP forum (where admitedly it was posted first); guess it's been a busy morning and I just missed it.

cosinetau 1 day ago 1 reply      
Congrats KSP team! Hope this next adventure is unlike my adventures with Jeb.
cr0sh 1 day ago 2 replies      
I have a good (bad) feeling that this change will likely mean that, sooner or later, Linux support will be dropped.

/bet me it won't...

renega3 1 day ago 1 reply      
I stopped playing KSP due to the microstutter issue (ostensibly due the to garbage collector) fixing that would make the game playable again.
tdsamardzhiev 1 day ago 0 replies      
Well, out of the big gaming companies, Take Two is the best one to get acquired by. Let's see where that leads.
dschuetz 1 day ago 0 replies      
I'm just glad that Microsoft didn't get this one. I bought it within the early access period, so I actively contributed to the development. I hope/expect to see some franchise spin-offs with the Kermans <3
codezero 1 day ago 1 reply      
I've had so much trouble playing the port on console. I know it was made by a contractor but ugh. I want to love this game but it's total masochism to play on console right now. Hopefully this leads to something good.
koiz 1 day ago 0 replies      
It seemed something was up when a few devs went to valve.
erikb 1 day ago 0 replies      
Why do they always say "nothing will change"? Of course things will change. That why someone acquired them, to change something.

And why do they always say the acquisition is good for the community? I count meself to the community, yet I didn't receive any six to ten digit payouts from the sale. Why should it be exciting for me?

cdrark 1 day ago 0 replies      
Come on co-op mode!
wexxx 1 day ago 0 replies      
this is awesome!
WA, NY and CA Governors Announce Formation of United States Climate Alliance wa.gov
485 points by rbanffy  6 hours ago   337 comments top 20
kibwen 5 hours ago 3 replies      
Are they open to more states joining, I hope? I'd like to petition my own state government to get on board. If the federal government's going to keep shitting the bed, this is the last hope I have left.
toisanji 4 hours ago 20 replies      
I would read the full speech from Trump, he makes some good points, although im sure some of it is false and not sure how it compares to other factors.


"For example, under the agreement, China will be ableto increase these emissions by a staggering number of years-- 13. They can do whatever they want for 13 years. Notus. India makes its participation contingent onreceiving billions and billions and billions of dollars inforeign aid from developed countries."

"China will be allowed to build hundreds of additionalcoal plants. So we cant build the plants, but they can,according to this agreement. India will be allowed todouble its coal production by 2020. Think of it: Indiacan double their coal production. Were supposed to getrid of ours. Even Europe is allowed to continueconstruction of coal plants."

"In short, the agreement doesnt eliminate coal jobs,it just transfers those jobs out of America and the UnitedStates, and ships them to foreign countries."

"This agreement is less about the climate and moreabout other countries gaining a financial advantage overthe United States."

"Beyond the severe energy restrictions inflicted by theParis Accord, it includes yet another scheme toredistribute wealth out of the United States through theso-called Green Climate Fund -- nice name -- which callsfor developed countries to send $100 billion to developingcountries all on top of Americas existing and massiveforeign aid payments. So were going to be paying billionsand billions and billions of dollars, and were already wayahead of anybody else. Many of the other countries haventspent anything, and many of them will never pay one dime."

"Even if the Paris Agreement were implemented in full,with total compliance from all nations, it is estimated itwould only produce a two-tenths of one degree -- think ofthat; this much -- Celsius reduction in global temperatureby the year 2100. Tiny, tiny amount. In fact, 14 days ofcarbon emissions from China alone would wipe out the gainsfrom America -- and this is an incredible statistic -would totally wipe out the gains from America's expectedreductions in the year 2030, after we have had to spendbillions and billions of dollars"

FYI, I'm not into politics and I'm 100% pro environment, I do try to be open and hear every party's point of view.

abalashov 5 hours ago 4 replies      
If they could just somehow recruit Texas to the cause, they'd pretty much have the leverage, as anchors of economics and policy for much of the rest of the country.
almostApatriot1 4 hours ago 2 replies      
Maybe this will motivate Cuomo not to shut down all the nuclear plants in NY. I'm not sure how he plans to achieve any sort of reduction if you have to replace nuclear as well (which provides NY with 30% of its electricity).
arkis22 4 hours ago 0 replies      
>Under the auspices of the Paris agreement, the Obama administration pledged to reduce U.S. greenhouse gas emissions by between 26% and 28% below the 2005 level by 2025. Much of that change already is well under way, though, as a result of factors outside of any presidents control: slower economic growth following the financial crisis, the shale gas revolution that has replaced a third of coal use and shifting driving habits.

>The Rhodium Group calculates that the U.S. still will come close to a 17% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions as soon as 2020, though it predicts no more significant progress in the remaining five years. The U.S. Energy Information Administration projected shortly before Mr. Obama took office that greenhouse gas emissions would rise by about 1% a year in the next several years, but they fell sharply. Very little of that had to do with Mr. Obamas decisions.


Progress is and will continue to be made regardless of backing out.

It will be interesting to see if the other countries back out. If people are attaching a lot of importance to this agreement, and other countries back out since the US did, the other countries will look awfully hypocritical.

pmurT 14 minutes ago 0 replies      
Wow, can I choose not to have my tax dollars go to this?

I think the future of government is voting through selective funding of programs by each individual.

jacquesm 5 hours ago 1 reply      
Now that's a thing to be happy about. Funny how every time Trump feels that he's about to grab the brass ring it is snatched away from him one way or another. Governing without consensus building is harder than it seems apparently.
scarmig 4 hours ago 1 reply      
Throw in all the solidly blue states and all the solidly blue cities, and you'd have a majority of the US's population and GDP.
laretluval 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Looking forward to a future where the seceded states are ruled by the institutional descendant of the Climate Alliance Executive Committee.
vyrotek 5 hours ago 1 reply      
pvnick 4 hours ago 0 replies      
1) Good - states' actions are how the constitution was framed

2) Weird - the governors appear to be taking action unilaterally by executive decree, which is how the Paris accord was originally agreed to (Obama) and reversed (Trump)

This might be the best of all worlds. Blue states can join the alliance, and red states can stay out. Everyone's happy and the economic effects can play out as they will.

dreamthtwasrome 4 hours ago 1 reply      
And so it begins. Gore Vidal and many others predicted an autocrat near the end.
Crontab 5 hours ago 0 replies      
I predict that Florida Governor, and part-time Spider-Man villain "The Vulture", will not being joining the group - even as Miami slowly floods.
artpop 5 hours ago 8 replies      
This is starting to sound like the Rim States from the science fiction novel Black Man (Thirteen) by Richard K. Morgan. Basically the blue and red states separate in the future because they couldnt resolve their differences. The blue states go on to prosper and the red states languish.

It struck me how plausible it sounded when I read it. Now with the commander in shit-the-bed Donald Trump and the rising tide self-destructive behaviour, its looking like a good option to me.

jjawssd 4 hours ago 0 replies      
"Instead of trying to make fossil fuels so expensive that no one wants them which will never work we should make green energy so cheap everybody will shift to it." [1]

Bjorn Lomborg explains that The Paris Climate Agreement will cost at least $1 trillion per year, and climate activists say it will save the planet. The truth? It won't do anything for the planet, but it will make everyone poorer - except politicians and environmentalists.

What is the solution? Copenhagen Consensus has consistently argued for a R&D-driven approach. Fortunately, more people are recognizing that this approach is cheaper and much more likely to succeed including the Global Apollo Program which includes Sir David King, Lord Nicholas Stern, Lord Adair Turner and Lord John Browne. [1]

NOTE: Please do not down-vote if you disagree with my post. If you disagree, please explain yourself in a relevant comment. Thank you.

[1] http://www.lomborg.com/press-release-research-reveals-neglig...

throwaway-1209 4 hours ago 2 replies      
As a taxpayer in one of those states, I'm more worried about whether they plan to pony up the $100B/yr that the US was obliged to under the agreement. If they do, I'd like to know where it'll come from. And if they don't, then what exactly will this alliance do?
jorblumesea 3 hours ago 1 reply      
In some ways, it doesn't really matter. Regardless of how hard people try to fight against alternative energies, the market forces will seek out inefficiencies. Consumers are driving demand for electric cars, cheaper energy and states are turning away from coal more and more every year. States that adopt alternative energies will see long term advantages and those that don't will eventually be forced to confront it. Some states have already adopted measures far beyond what the US has ratified or even proposed.

Trump can posture as much as he wants, he's against a huge tidal wave of change and on the wrong side of history.

enknamel 4 hours ago 3 replies      
There is a massive difference between caring about the environment and following the Paris Climate Agreement. We as a country can do a ton to reduce our damage to the environment. However it is going to be a drop in the bucket to what some third world and massively developing countries will contribute. Follow Amdahl's Law. The biggest emitters should get the biggest spanking.

This is why Paris Agreement is almost completely worthless. China is the largest contributor of green house gasses in the world and emits about a third of all the green house gasses. (if not drastically more given the shady reporting). And they want to give China a free pass to keep polluting the world for another 13 years while every other country gets their emissions under control?

I'm very pro environment and any serious agreement must have China curbing their emissions now. They emit twice the green house gasses as the US (which is the number 2 contributor). That cannot be allowed to continue.

xienze 4 hours ago 8 replies      
One thing I never see addressed with all the talk about climate change:

Let's say we managed to cease our CO2 production, even reverse the current man-made warming trend (save me the "impossible hypothetical scenario" talk, substitute in whatever values of "cease" we would have accomplished with the Paris Agreement, whatever).

Eventually, the earth is going to warm significantly without the aid of mankind. What are we supposed to do about that? Global warming is an eventuality, and no amount of carbon taxes that apply to a certain set of countries and not to others is going to change that. So someone enlighten me, what's the long, long-term view plan for global warming?

IChangedCareers 5 hours ago 5 replies      
Noting that all three are (D). Statement of fact, and not opinion attempt. The actionable items on renewables are also huge with deregulation of energy sectors in these three states which is huge impact. Also noting, the lobbyst are all renewable folks - et al Tesla. :) SolarCity ... wonder who was pushing this? ya. Again .... not a political statement. Just pointing out the obvious.
How to Improve a Legacy Codebase jacquesmattheij.com
630 points by darwhy  2 days ago   283 comments top 46
apeace 2 days ago 6 replies      
> Do not fall into the trap of improving both the maintainability of the code or the platform it runs on at the same time as adding new features or fixing bugs.

I don't disagree at all, but I think the more valuable advice would be to explain how this can be done at a typical company.

In my experience, "feature freeze" is unacceptable to the business stakeholders, even if it only has to last for a few weeks. And for larger-sized codebases, it will usually be months. So the problem becomes explaining why you have to do the freeze, and you usually end up "compromising" and allowing only really important, high-priority changes to be made (i.e. all of them).

I have found that focusing on bugs and performance is a good way to sell a "freeze". So you want feature X added to system Y? Well, system Y has had 20 bugs in the past 6 months, and logging in to that system takes 10+ seconds. So if we implement feature X we can predict it will be slow and full of bugs. What we should do is spend one month refactoring the parts of the system which will surround feature X, and then we can build the feature.

In this way you avoid ever "freezing" anything. Instead you are explicitly elongating project estimates in order to account for refactoring. Refactor the parts around X, implement X. Refactor the parts around Z, implement Z. The only thing the stakeholders notice is that development pace slows down, which you told them would happen and explained the reason for.

And frankly, if you can't point to bugs or performance issues, it's likely you don't need to be refactoring in the first place!

specialist 2 days ago 8 replies      
Sound advice.

re: Write Your Tests

I've never been successful with this. Sure, write (backfill) as many tests as you can.

But the legacy stuff I've adopted / resurrected have been complete unknowns.

My go-to strategy has been blackbox (comparison) testing. Capture as much input & output as I can. Then use automation to diff output.

I wouldn't bother to write unit tests etc for code that is likely to be culled, replaced.

re: Proxy

I've recently started doing shadow testing, where the proxy is a T-split router, sending mirror traffic to both old and new. This can take the place of blackbox (comparison) testing.

re: Build numbers

First step to any project is to add build numbers. Semver is marketing, not engineering. Just enumerate every build attempt, successful or not. Then automate the builds, testing, deploys, etc.

Build numbers can really help defect tracking, differential debugging. Every ticket gets fields for "found" "fixed" and "verified". Caveat: I don't know if my old school QA/test methods still apply in this new "agile" DevOps (aka "winging it") world.

cessor 2 days ago 2 replies      
I'd add a prerequisite to the top of this list:

- Get a local build running first.

Often, a complete local build is not possible. There are tons of dependencies, such as databases, websites, services, etc. and every developer has a part of it on their machine. Releases are hard to do.

I once worked for a telco company in the UK where the deployment of the system looked like this: (Context: Java Portal Development) One dev would open a zip file and pack all the .class files he had generated into it, and email it to his colleague, who would then do the same. The last person in the chain would rename the file to .jar and then upload it to the server. Obviously, this process was error prone and deployments happened rarely.

I would argue that getting everything to build on a central system (some sort of CI) is usefull as well, but before changing, testing, db freezing, or anything else is possible, you should try to have everything you need on each developer's machine.

This might be obvious to some, but I have seen this ignored every once in a while. When you can't even build the system locally, freezing anything, testing anything, or changing anything will be a tedious and error prone process...

taude 2 days ago 1 reply      
This is a good high-level overview of the process. I highly recommend that engineers working in the weeds, read "Working Effectively with Legacy Code" [1], as it has a ton of patterns in it that you can implement, and more detailed strategies on how to do some of the code changes hinted at in this article.

[1] https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/working-effec...

bmh_ca 2 days ago 7 replies      
I mostly agree with this - bite-sized chunks is really the main ingredient to success with complex code base reformations.

FWIW, if you want to have a look at a reasonably complex code base being broken up into maintainable modules of modernized code, I rewrote Knockout.js with a view to creating version 4.0 with modern tooling. It is now in alpha, maintained as a monorepo of ES6 packages at https://github.com/knockout/tko

You can see the rough transition strategy here: https://github.com/knockout/tko/issues/1

In retrospect it would've been much faster to just rewrite Knockout from scratch. That said, we've kept almost all the unit tests, so there's a reasonable expectation of backwards compatibility with KO 3.x.

_virtu 2 days ago 12 replies      
How does one get better if they only ever work in code bases that are steaming piles of manure? So far I've worked at two places and the code bases have been in this state to an extreme. I feel like I've been in this mode since the very beginning of my career and am worried that my skill growth has been negatively impacted by this.

I work on my own side projects, read lots of other people's code on github and am always looking to improve myself in my craft outside of work, but I worry it's not enough.

kentt 2 days ago 10 replies      
> Do not ever even attempt a big-bang rewrite

I'd love to hear a more balanced view on this. I think this idea is preached as the gospel when dealing with legacy systems. I absolutely understand that the big rewrite has many disadvantages. Surely there is a code base that has features such that a rewrite is better. I'm going to go against the common wisdom and wisdom I've practiced until now, and rewrite a program I maintain that is

1. Reasonably small (10k loc with a large parts duplicated or with minor variables changed).

2. Barely working. Most users cannot get the program working because of the numerous bugs. I often can't reproduce their bugs, because I get bugs even earlier in the process.

3. No test suite.

4. Plenty of very large security holes.

5. I can deprecate the old version.

I've spent time refactoring this (maybe 50 hours) but that seems crazy because it's still a pile of crap and at 200 hours I don't think it look that different. I doubt it would take 150 hours for a full rewrite.

Kindly welcoming dissenting opinions.

korzun 2 days ago 2 replies      
> Before you make any changes at all write as many end-to-end and integration tests as you can.

I don't agree with this. People can't write proper coverage for a code base that they 'fully understand'. You will most likely end up writing tests for very obvious things or low hanging fruits; the unknowns will still seep through at one point or another.

Forget about refactoring code just to comply with your tests and breaking the rest of the architecture in the process. It will pass your 'test' but will fail in production.

What you should be doing is:

1. Perform architecture discovery and documentation (helps you with remembering things).

2. Look over last N commits/deliverables to understand how things are integrating with each other. It's very helpful to know how code evolved over time.

3. Identify your roadmap and what sort of impact it will have on the legacy code.

4. Commit to the roadmap. Understand the scope of the impact for your anything you add/remove. Account for code, integrations, caching, database, and documentation.

5. Don't forget about things like jobs and anything that might be pulling data from your systems.

Identifying what will be changing and adjusting your discovery to accommodate those changes as you go is a better approach from my point of view.

By the time you reach the development phase that touches 5% of architecture, your knowledge of 95% of design will be useless, and in six months you will forget it anyways.

You don't cut a tree with a knife to break a branch.

maxxxxx 2 days ago 7 replies      
How do people handle this in dynamic languages like JavaScript? I have done a lot of incremental refactoring in C++ and C# and there the compiler usually helped to find problems.

I am now working on a node.js app and I find it really hard to make any changes. Even typos when renaming a variable often go undetected unless you have perfect test coverage.

This is not even a large code base and I find it already hard to manage. Maybe i have been using typed languages for a long time so my instincts don't apply to dynamic languages but I seriously wonder how one could maintain a large JavaScript codebase.

lbill 2 days ago 0 replies      
I used to work on a messy legacy codebase. I managed to clean it, little by little, even though most of my colleagues and the management were a bit afraid of refactoring. It wasn't perfect but things kinda worked, and I had hope for this codebase.

Then the upper management appointed a random guy to do a "Big Bang" refactor: it has been failing miserably (it is still going on, doing way more harm than good). Then it all started to go really bad... and I quit and found a better job!

busterarm 2 days ago 0 replies      
All of this seems to focus on the code, after glossing over the career management implications in the first paragraph.

I've done this sort of work quite a number of times and I've made mistakes and learned what works there.

It's actually the most difficult part to navigate successfully. If you already have management's trust (i.e., you have the political power in your organization to push a deadline or halt work), you're golden and all of the things mentioned in the OP are achievable. If not, you're going to have to make huge compromises. Front-load high-visibility deliverables and make sure they get done. Prove that it's possible.

Scenario 1) I came in as a sub-contractor to help spread the workload (from 2 to 3) building out a very early-stage application for dealing with medical records. I came in and saw the codebase was an absolute wretched mess. DB schema full of junk, wide tables, broken and leaking API routes. I spent the first two weeks just bulletproofing the whole application backend and whipping it into shape before adding new features for a little while and being fired shortly afterwards.

Lesson: Someone else was paying the bills and there wasn't enough visibility/show-off factor for the work I was doing so they couldn't justify continuing to pay me. It doesn't really matter that they couldn't add new features until I fixed things. It only matters that the client couldn't visibly see the work I did.

Scenario 2) I was hired on as a web developer to a company and it immediately came to my attention that a huge, business-critical ETL project was very behind schedule. The development component had a due date three weeks preceding my start date and they didn't have anyone working on it. I asked to take that on, worked like a dog on it and knocked it out of the park. The first three months of my work there immediately saved the company about a half-million dollars. Overall we launched on time and I became point person in the organization for anything related to its data.

Lesson: Come in and kick ass right away and you'll earn a ton of trust in your organization to do the right things the right way.

OutsmartDan 2 days ago 7 replies      
Big bang rewrites are needed in order to move forward faster.

A huge issue with sticking to an old codebase for such a long time is that it gets older and older. You get new talent that doesn't want to manage it and leave, so you're stuck with the same old people that implemented the codebase in the first place. Sure they're smart, knowledgable people in the year 2000, but think of how fast technology changes. Change, adapt, or die.

stephenwilcock 1 day ago 0 replies      
It is great to see more people sharing their strategies for managing legacy codebases. However, I thought it might be worth commenting on the suggestion about incrementing database counters:

> "add a single function to increment these counters based on the name of the event"

While the sentiment is a good one, I would warn against introducing counters in the database like this and incrementing them on every execution of a function. If transactions volumes are high, then depending on the locking strategy in your database, this could lead to blocking and locking. Operations that could previously execute in parallel independently now have to compete for a write lock on this shared counter, which could slow down throughput. In the worst case, if there are scenarios where two counters can be incremented inside different transactions, but in different sequences (not inconceivable in a legacy code), then you could introduce deadlocks.

Adding database writes to a legacy codebase is not without risk.

If volumes are low you might get away with it for a long time, but a better strategy would probably just to log the events to a file and aggregate them when you need them.

sz4kerto 2 days ago 8 replies      
The OP has so many reasonable, smart-sounding advice that doesn't work in the real world.

1) "Do not fall into the trap of improving both the maintainability of the code or the platform it runs on at the same time as adding new features or fixing bugs."

Thanks. However, in many situations this is simply not possible because the business is not there yet so you need to keep adding new features and fix bugs. And still, the code base has to be improved. Impossible? Almost, but we're paid for solving hard problems.

2) "Before you make any changes at all write as many end-to-end and integration tests as you can."

Sounds cool, except in many cases you have no idea how the code is supposed to work. Writing tests for new features and bugfixes is a good advice (but that goes against other points the OP makes).

3) "A big-bang rewrite is the kind of project that is pretty much guaranteed to fail.

No, it's not. Especially if you're rewriting parts of it at a time as separate modules

My problem with the OP is really that it tells you how to improve a legacy codebase given no business and time pressure.

hinkley 2 days ago 0 replies      
It's my turn to disagree with something in the article.

> Before you make any changes at all write as many end-to-end and integration tests as you can.

I'm beginning to see this as a failure mode in and of itself. Once you give people E2E tests it's the only kind of tests they want to write. It takes about 18 months for the wheels to fall off so it can look like a successful strategy. What they need to do is learn to write unit tests, but You have to break the code up into little chunks. It doesn't match their aesthetic sense and so it feels juvenile and contrived. The ego kicks in and you think you're smart enough you don't have to eat your proverbial vegetables.

The other problem is e2e tests are slow, they're flaky, and nobody wants to think about how much they cost in the long run because it's too painful to look at. How often have you see two people huddled over a broken E2E test? Multiply the cost of rework by 2.

artursapek 2 days ago 3 replies      
Are there businesses building automation and tooling for working with legacy codebases? It seems like a really good "niche" for a startup. The target market grows faster every year :)
SideburnsOfDoom 2 days ago 1 reply      
> add instrumentation. Do this in a completely new database table, add a simple counter for every event that you can think of and add a single function to increment these counters based on the name of the event.

The idea is a good one but the specific suggested implementation .. hasn't he heard of statsd or kibana?

mfrisbie 2 days ago 0 replies      
Sometimes your inner desires to rewrite it from scratch can be overwhelming.


yeukhon 2 days ago 0 replies      
Healthcare.gov is a good example although not legacy codebase. Anyway, I think fixing small bugs and writing tests are best way to learn how to work with legacy system. This allows me to see what components are easier to rewrite/refactor/add more logging and instrumentation. Business cannot wait months before a bug is fixed just for the sake of making a better codebase. But I agree on database changes should be minimal to none as much as possible. Also, overcommunicate with your downstream customers of your legacy system. They may be using your interface in an unexpected manner.

I have done a number of serious refactoring myself and god tests will save me a huge favor despite I have to bite teeth for a few days to a few weeks.

moonbug 2 days ago 0 replies      
This should be one of the first tasks that any aspiring career programmer has. It's an essential experience in making a professional.
weef 2 days ago 2 replies      
Great advice. Writing integration tests or unit tests around existing functionality is extremely important but unfortunately might not always be feasible given the time, budget, or complexity of the code base. I just completed a new feature for an existing and complex code base but was given the time to write an extensive set of end-to-end integration tests covering most scenarios before starting my coding. This proved invaluable once I started adding my features to give me confidence I wasn't breaking anything and helped find a few existing bugs no one had caught before!
user5994461 1 day ago 0 replies      
Agreed about the pre-requirements: Adding some tests, reproducible builds, logs, basic instrumentations.

Highly disagree about the order of coding. That guy wants to change the platform, redo the architecture, refactor everything, before he starts to fix bugs. That's a recipe for disaster.

It's not possible to refactor anything while you have no clue about the system. You will change things you don't understand, only to break the features and add new bugs.

You should start by fixing bugs. With a preference toward long standing simple issues, like "adding a validation on that form, so the app doesn't crash when the user gives a name instead of a number". See with users for a history of simple issues.

That delivers immediate value. This will give you credit quickly toward the stakeholders and the users. You learn the internals doing, before you can attempt any refactoring.

pinaceae 2 days ago 0 replies      
First and foremost, do not assume that everyone who ever worked on the code before is a bumbling idiot. assume the opposite.

If it's code that has been running successfully in production for years, be humble.

Bugifxes, shortcuts, restraints - all are real life and prevent perfect code and documentation under pressure.

The team at Salesforce.com is doing a massive re-platforming right now with their switch to Lightning. Should provide a few good stories, switching over millions of paying users, not fucking up billions in revenue.

deedubaya 2 days ago 1 reply      
Yeah, I've done this. It's frustrating and easy to burn out doing it because progress seems so arbitrary. Legacy upgrades are usually driven by large problems or the desire to add new features. Getting a grip on the code base while deflecting those desires can be hard.

This type of situation is usually a red flag that the company's management doesn't understand the value of maintaining software until the absolutely have to. That, in itself, is an indicator of what they think of their employees.

alexeiz 2 days ago 1 reply      
I was in this situation more than once.

My actions are usually these:

* Fix the build system, automate build process and produce regular builds that get deployed to production. It's incredible that some people still don't understand the value of the repeatable, reliable build. In one project, in order to build the system you had to know which makefiles to patch and disable the parts of the project which were broken at that particular time. And then they deployed it and didn't touch it for months. Next time you needed to build/deploy it was impossible to know what's changed or if you even built the same thing.

* Fix all warnings. Usually there are thousands of them, and they get ignored because "hey, the code builds, what else do you want." The warning fixing step allows to see how fucked up some of the code is.

* Start writing unit tests for things you change, fix or document. Fix existing tests (as they are usually unmaintained and broken).

* Fix the VCS and enforce sensible review process and history maintenance. Otherwise nobody has a way of knowing what changed, when and why. Actually, not even all parts of the project may be in the VCS. The code, configs, scripts can be lying around on individual dev machines, which is impossible to find without the repeatable build process. Also, there are usually a bunch of branches with various degrees of staleness which were used to deploy code to production. The codebase may have diverged significantly. It needs to be merged back into the mainline and the development process needs to be enforced that prevents this from happening in the future.

Worst of all is that in the end very few people would appreciate this work. But at least I get to keep my sanity.

logicallee 2 days ago 0 replies      
This says, near the end, "Do not ever even attempt a big-bang rewrite", but aren't a LOT of legacy in-house projects completely blown out of the water by well-maintained libraries of popular, modern languages, that already exist? (In some cases these might be commercial solutions, but for which a business case could be made.)

I'm loath to give examples so as not to constrain your thinking, but, for example, imagine a bunch of hairy Perl had been built to crawl web sites as part of whatever they're doing, and it just so happens that these days curl or wget do more, and better, and less buggy, than everything they had built. (think of your own examples here, anything from machine vision to algabreic computation, whatever you want.)

In fact isn't this the case for lots and lots of domains?

For this reason I'm kind of surprised why the "big bang rewrite" is, written off so easily.

mannykannot 2 days ago 2 replies      
WRT architecture: In my experience, you would be lucky if you are free to change the higher level structure of the code without having to dive deeply into the low-level code. Usually, the low-level code is a tangle of pathological dependencies, and you can't do any architectural refactoring without diving in and rooting them out one at a time (I was pulling up ivy this weekend, so I was primed to make this comment!)
iamNumber4 2 days ago 1 reply      
Sometimes you get an entire septic tank full of...

Code base that is non-existent, as the previous attempts were done with MS BI (SSIS) tools (for all things SSIS is not for) and/or SQL Stored procedures, with no consistency on coding style, documentation, over 200 hundred databases (sometimes 3 per process that only exist to house a handful of stored procedures), and a complete developer turn over rate of about every 2 years. with Senior leadership in the organization clueless to any technology.

As you look at a ~6000 lines in a single stored procedure. You fight the urge to light the match, and give it some TLC ( Torch it, Level it, Cart it away) to start over with something new.

Moral of the story, As you build, replace things stress to everyone to "Concentrate of getting it Right, instead of Getting it Done!" so you don't add to the steaming pile.

matt_s 2 days ago 0 replies      
Regarding instrumentation and logging - this can also be used to identify areas of the codebase that can possibly be retired. If it is a legacy application, there are likely areas that aren't used any longer. Don't focus on tests or anything in these areas and possibly deprecate them.
quadcore 2 days ago 1 reply      
From what I've seen the most common mistake when starting working on a new codebase is to not read it all before doing any change.

I really mean it, a whole lot of programmers simply dont read the codebase before starting a task. Guess the result, specially in terms of frustration.

ransom1538 2 days ago 1 reply      
> Before you make any changes at all write as many end-to-end and integration tests as you can.

^ Yes and no. That might take forever and the company might be struggling with cash. I would instead consider adding a metrics dashboard. Basically - find the key points: payments sent, payments cleared, new user, returning user, store opened, etc. THIS isn't as good as a nice integration suite - but if a client is hard on cash and needs help - this can be setup in hours. With this setup - after adding/editing code you can calm investors/ceos'. Alternatively, if it's a larger corp it will be time strapped - then push for the same thing :)

lol768 2 days ago 1 reply      
Any advice on what steps to take when the legacy codebase is incredibly difficult to test?

I completely agree with the sentiment that scoping the existing functionality and writing a comprehensive test suite is important - but how should you proceed when the codebase is structured in such a way that it's almost impossible to test specific units in isolation, or when the system is hardcoded throughout to e.g. connect to a remote database? As far as I can see it'll take a lot of work to get the codebase into a state where you can start doing these tests, and surely there's a risk of breaking stuff in the process?

pc86 2 days ago 1 reply      
I've been a part of several successful big-bang rewrites, and several unsuccessful ones, and saying that if you're smart they're not on the table is just flat out wrong.

The key is an engaged business unit, clear requirements, and time on the schedule. Obviously if one or more of these things sounds ridiculous then the odds of success are greatly diminished. It is much easier if you can launch on the new platform a copy of the current system, not a copy + enhancements, but I've been on successful projects where we launched with new functionality.

d--b 2 days ago 1 reply      
I agree with most of this, though I think it doesn't dive into the main problem:

Freezing a whole system is practically impossible. What you usually get is a "piecewise" freeze. As in: you get to have a small portion of the system to not change for a given period.

The real challenge is: how can you split your project in pieces of functionalities that are reasonably sized and replaceable independently from each other.

There is definitely no silver bullet for how to do this.

Bahamut 2 days ago 0 replies      
Can't say I agree with the big bang rewrite part necessarily - at my last job, I found myself having to do significant refactors. The reason was that each view had its own concept of a model for interacting with various objects, which resulted in a lot of different bugs from one off implementations. My refactor had some near term pain of having to fix various regressions I created, but ultimately it led to much better long term maintenance.
alexwebb2 2 days ago 0 replies      
> How to Improve a Legacy Codebase When You Have Full Control Over the Project, Infinite Time and Money, and Top-Tier Developers

edit: I'm being a little snarky here, but the assumptions here are just too much. This is all best-case scenario stuff that doesn't translate very well to the vast majority of situations it's ostensibly aimed at.

kevan 2 days ago 0 replies      
>Use proxies to your advantage

At my last gig we used this exact strategy to replace a large ecommerce site piece by piece. Being able to slowly replace small pieces and AB test every change was great. We were able to sort out all of the "started as a bug, is now a feature" issues with low risk to overall sales.

safek 2 days ago 2 replies      
> Do not ever even attempt a big-bang rewrite

Really? Are there no circumstances under which this would be appropriate? It seems to me this makes assumptions about the baseline quality of the existing codebase. Surely sometimes buying a new car makes more sense than trying to fix up an old one?

jhgjklj 2 days ago 0 replies      
The biggest problem in improving legacy codebase is that the people who have involved with have been too long and are completely using old techinques and as a new developer you can not change them, they will change you which means its hard to improve.
macca321 2 days ago 0 replies      
Another thing you can do is start recording all requests that cause changes to the system in an event store (a la event sourcing). Once you have this in place, you can use the event stream to project a new read model (e.g.a new, coherent, database structure).
rattray 2 days ago 1 reply      
> Yes, but all this will take too much time!

I'm actually quite curious; how long does this process typically take you?

What are the most relevant factors on which it scales? Messiness of existing code? Number of modules/LOC? Existing test coverage?

btbuildem 2 days ago 0 replies      
Thanks for posting, some excellent high-level advice.
jefurii 2 days ago 0 replies      
Stick around that startup long enough and this a good set of things to do with your own code.
jlebrech 2 days ago 0 replies      
do refactoring you should have known at the time and not the brand new fangled way to do things, that way each new way fades into the other.
crankyadmin 2 days ago 1 reply      
Delete it...

(Speaking from experience from work)

jofer 2 days ago 1 reply      
I agree with everything said, but I think they assumed a well-maintained and highly functionality legacy codebase. In my experience, there are a few steps before any of those.


1. Find out which functionality is still used and which functionality is critical

Management will always say "all of it". The problem is that what they're aware of is usually the tip of the iceberg in terms of what functionality is supported. In most large legacy codebases, you'll have major sections of the application that have sat unused or disabled for a couple of decades. Find out what users and management actually think the application does and why they're looking to resurrect it. The key is to make sure you know what is business critical functionality vs "nice to have". That may happen to be the portions of the application that are currently deliberately disabled.

Next, figure out who the users are. Are there any? Do you have any way to tell? If not, if it's an internal application, find someone who used it in the past. It's often illuminating to find out what people are actually using the application for. It may not be the application's original/primary purpose.


2. Is the project under version control? If not, get something in place before you change anything.

This one is obvious, but you'd be surprised how often it comes up. Particularly at large, non-tech companies, it's common for developers to not use version control. I've inherited multi-million line code bases that did not use version control at all. I know of several others in the wild at big corporations. Hopefully you'll never run into these, but if we're talking about legacy systems, it's important to take a step back.

One other note: If it's under any version control at all, resist the urge to change what it's under. CVS is rudimentary, but it's functional. SVN is a lot nicer than people think it is. Hold off on moving things to git/whatever just because you're more comfortable with it. Whatever history is there is valuable, and you invariably lose more than you think you will when migrating to a new version control system. (This isn't to say don't move, it's just to say put that off until you know the history of the codebase in more detail.)


3. Is there a clear build and deployment process? If not, set one up.

Once again, hopefully this isn't an issue.

I've seen large projects that did not have a unified build system, just a scattered mix of shell scripts and isolated makefiles. If there's no way to build the entire project, it's an immediate pain point. If that's the case, focus on the build system first, before touching the rest of the codebase. Even for a project which excellent processes in place, reviewing the build system in detail is not a bad way to start learning the overall architecture of the system.

More commonly, deployment is a cumbersome process. Sometimes cumbersome deployment may be an organizational issue, and not something that has a technical solution. In that case, make sure you have a painless way to deploy to an isolated development environment of some sort. Make sure you can run things in a sandboxed environment. If there are organizational issues around deploying to a development setup, those are battles you need to fight immediately.

US quits Paris climate pact bbc.com
474 points by antouank  8 hours ago   354 comments top 30
scarmig 7 hours ago 11 replies      
This is one of those situations where you should be shaking your head, even if you're a climate change denying conservative or a fussil fuel industrial interest.

The Paris pact was pretty toothless: it was a step forward, but heavily aspirational. Indeed, one of the stated complaints of conservatives was that it did nothing to enforce compliance. The Trump Administration could have just as well ignored it without formally reneging on it and forced the next administration to deal with the egg on the face for failing to meet the USA's commitments.

But instead he's seriously undermined people's ability to trust in the United States maintaining its international obligations for anything except the shortest periods of time. To be fair, what he's done already with NATO is far worse. But this underlines the reality that the United States government is so unstable that it's unable to uphold any coherency in policy or meet its stated commitments.

If you're a small country who's been trusting the USA as a solid ally against regional competitors, you're looking at this and going, "well, maybe I should be focusing more on ties with the EU/Russia/China/India."

It's honestly pretty humiliating for the USA, even aside from the fact that we've just fucked the next generation just to give the finger to elitist liberals and scientists.

pavlov 7 hours ago 8 replies      
The United States of America spent a hundred years building up a global leadership position. President Trump has effectively destroyed it in a mere four months.

China is adeptly stepping up to fill the void left by the United States. Last week Trump did his best to alienate America's long-standing European allies, who now feel that they are on their own against Russia's expanding European power plays. So Europe is turning to China as well.

Chinese and European leaders have scheduled a meeting tomorrow to state how they intend to expand efforts to fight climate change. Meanwhile, USA is isolating itself with Syria and Nicaragua as the only three countries to stay out of the Paris accord.

diafygi 7 hours ago 3 replies      
I have a cleantech startup, and in the industry we see this decision as only having a negative impact on deep red states. Most other states will implement mandates in line with Paris on their own, which will grow their local energy economies (the transition means lots of jobs).

Deep red states that try to slow the transition will just get left behind. Trump is hurting his own base, while not slowing anyone else down. The economics are simply too good to turn back now.

Happy to answer questions. And many companies in cleantech are hiring!

zorpner 7 hours ago 6 replies      
Elon Musk just posted that he will, as promised, be quitting the presidential council: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/870369915894546432
credo 7 hours ago 1 reply      
It was a bit disingenuous for Trump to describe India and China as top polluters

India (population 1.3 Billion) creates lesser CO2 emissions than the US

China's per-capita emissions is just around half of that of the US

[Edit: replying to comment about pollution and emissions

The Paris agreement is about climate change and reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

When Trump talks about polluters and withdrawing from the Paris agreement, it seems illogical to suggest that he wasn't referring to CO2 emissions]

_ph_ 7 hours ago 0 replies      
This is sad news. The direct impact on the carbon reduction might actually be not too large, as renewable energies are actually the cheaper alternative, and as many of the American states are pushing for carbon reductions.

The big downside of the US quitting the Paris climate pact is the political signal it is sending. The pact was significant, because it was the first time the world managed to agree on something (except Syria and Nicaragua). Leaving the pact sends the signal, that the US does not want to internationally collaborate on preventing climate change. Most of our todays problems and challenges can only be solved by international collaboration, be they environmental or economical. It would have the better signal, and probably also served the US interests better, if the US would not quit the climate pact.

NicoJuicy 7 hours ago 3 replies      
So Trump is basicly quitting the Paris climate pact for the mining industry, which is mostly automated? Leaving the solar space for China that going to be the leader in solar energy.

I've actually never thought i would say this, but my "admiration" for the US has drasticly declined the last few months. I think this also affects "Silicon Valley".

PS. Am i right that your President only had a one hit wonder with Trump Tower, with daddy's money. Then licensed everything ( the few things he did with casino's failed). And ... He is now the president, because he was in a TV-show? Or am i missing something?

rayiner 7 hours ago 2 replies      
Even as an environmentalist, I'm okay with this. The political reaction to climate change is a farce. The Paris accord isn't going to do anything, just like the Kyoto protocol didn't do anything. It's just a way for people to feel good without making any real lifestyle changes.
rodrigocoelho 6 hours ago 0 replies      
This is The Weather Channel website (https://weather.com/) right now (reportedly, I can't see it due to my location):


seiferteric 7 hours ago 10 replies      
Does anyone think we might start seeing a brain drain out of the US given the current political climate?
pouetpouet 7 hours ago 2 replies      
China+EU have grounds to put tariffs on US products.
reirob 6 hours ago 1 reply      
The answer from French president Emmanuel Macron to Trump's announcement (in English, video, 03:17):


edit: typos, duration of video

vowelless 7 hours ago 12 replies      
Can someone give me pros and cons of this move (serious responses only)?


fooker 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Times have changed. New York Times mocked India two years ago.


maaaats 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Why was this removed from the front page?
clumsysmurf 5 hours ago 1 reply      
370 upvotes in 2 hours with 268 comments (as I write this), yet this story is at the very bottom of the front page of HN at #28 (6:15 EST).

Does HN systematically penalize / shadow censor certain kinds of content?

harichinnan 7 hours ago 2 replies      
The liberals should take a page out of the Venezuelan Hunger Bonds movement and identify companies that fund climate change denial. A climate bond movement to target and blacklist company shares/bonds or other offerings would get the message across.
lxcid 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Remember the old story of The Tortoise and The Hare? U.S. is acting like the Hare now
jokermatt999 7 hours ago 0 replies      
What are the foreign policy implications of this? Every single other country's reaction that I've seen has been to beg the US to stay in the accord.
NicoJuicy 7 hours ago 0 replies      
The american dream is a prime minister : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4rWVOeEI7Y . It could be shoved aside. Since the US is now 4 months with Trump, another 44 months to go. I am really wondering what he will do next
vorg 5 hours ago 0 replies      
I'd say certain countries have gotten together behind the scenes to take turns playing bad cop. Now it's America's turn, a few years ago it was Australia who refused to sign.
defined 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Oh, this is just Trump sticking it to Macron for humiliating Trump by crushing his knuckles in that infamous handshake. /s
NicoJuicy 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Offtopic, shouldn't this be the #1 post, it's probably blacklisted currently: http://imgur.com/XdEShU0
upofadown 7 hours ago 1 reply      
That seems... very not clever...

Why deliberately try to piss everyone off? Why not just follow the popular approach of agreeing to some environmental agreement and then entirely ignoring it?

amichail 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Canadians should be happy with the resulting milder winters.
gonvaled 7 hours ago 0 replies      
It has stopped being funny now.
wollstonecraft 7 hours ago 1 reply      
If this bothers you, elect senators who will ratify an actual treaty.
PythonicAlpha 7 hours ago 1 reply      
This is a bad day for the US, since by such a behavior ("America first -- ignore international pacts"), the other countries will less and less likely follow this country (with exception of Saudi Arabia, of course).

The Europeans are already drawn to China and India and this will grow stronger.

And Trump should not think, that European buyers will be more inclined in the future to support US companies by buying US products.

yogthos 7 hours ago 0 replies      
A failed state.
sergiotapia 7 hours ago 7 replies      
Response from the market: http://i.imgur.com/CDKVSWq.jpg

The Paris Accord according to President Trump would have allowed China to do whatever they want for the next 13 years, while India would receive billions in aid.

http://climateactiontracker.org/countries/usa.html - US Pledges ( 26-28%)


http://climateactiontracker.org/countries/china.html - China Pledges (0%)

Node v8.0.0 Released nodejs.org
521 points by petercooper  2 days ago   177 comments top 17
nailer 2 days ago 11 replies      
Short ver: async await is now in an LTS release of node. Anything that returns a promise can now be run inline - ie, no endless .then() chaining - provided you've started an async context:

 const writeFile = util.promisify(fs.writeFile), request = util.promisify('superagent'), stat = util.promisify(fs.stat), sorts = require('sorts'), log = console.log.bind(console) const getJeansAndSaveThem = async function(){ var jeans = await request.get('https://example.com/api/v1/product/trousers').query({ label: 'Levi Strauss', isInStock: true, maxResults: 500 }).end() jeans = jeans.sort(sorts.alphabetical) await writeFile('jeans.json', jeans) const status = await stat('jeans.json'); log(`I just got some data from an API and saved the results to a file. The file was born at ${status.birthtime}`) }
Note: you should add error handling, I'm new to async/await and this code is to demonstrate a concept on HN, not to run your life support system. ;-)

SparkyMcUnicorn 2 days ago 2 replies      
"Note that, when referring to Node.js release versions, we have dropped the "v" in Node.js 8. Previous versions were commonly referred to as v0.10, v0.12, v4, v6, etc. In order to avoid confusion with V8, the underlying JavaScript engine, we've dropped the "v" and call it Node.js 8."

I was wondering how this would be handled. I guess old habits die hard since this article title includes the "v".

petercooper 2 days ago 0 replies      
For anyone not in the JS/Node worlds, this is a significant release that people are particularly excited about. It was also delayed somewhat due to wanting to align with V8 which should, however, be totally worth it :-)

Other relevant posts digging into new features include http://codingsans.com/blog/node-8 and https://blog.risingstack.com/important-features-fixes-node-j...

flavio81 2 days ago 6 replies      
For me, this one brought happiness:

Node.js 8.0.0 includes a new util.promisify() API that allows standard Node.js callback style APIs to be wrapped in a function that returns a Promise. An example use of util.promisify() is shown below.

This is great stuff. This enables writing code using async and await at all times, which is what any sane developer would do when writing code for Node.js.

neovive 2 days ago 6 replies      
This is exciting news! I'm a long-time LAMP developer (now mostly Laravel) and have been experimenting with NodeJS for an upcoming API project. As Javascript becomes a larger part of each new project, using one language throughout the entire stack is becoming much more compelling.

Is Express still considered the de facto web framework for NodeJS? Or are other frameworks better suited for someone used to the "batteries-included" philosophy of Laravel. I'm watching the new "Learning Node" course from WesBos since he covers async/await and Express seems very similar to most MVC frameworks.

elzi 2 days ago 1 reply      
I know there's much bigger things in this release to be excited about, but I'm so happy they're allowing trailing commas in function args/params.
ianstormtaylor 2 days ago 2 replies      
Does anyone have a link to better explanation of the changes to `debugger`?

> The legacy command line debugger is being removed in Node.js 8. As a command line replacement, node-inspect has been integrated directly into the Node.js runtime. Additionally, the V8 Inspector debugger, which arrived previously as an experimental feature in Node.js 6, is being upgraded to a fully supported feature.

It sounds like `node debug` will no longer work? But it is replaced with something that's better? What is `node-inspect` and where can I learn about it?

STRML 2 days ago 1 reply      
This is a big release. Async/await in stable core is something I've been (literally) waiting 6 years for.

Many people have criticized Node's cooperative multithreading model, with both good and uninformed reasons. Yet, it is without dispute that the model is popular.

Async/await is a giant leap forward toward making Node usable for beginner and expert alike. This release is a celebration.

For those of you with existing applications looking to migrate, try `--turbo --ignition` to emulate (most) of the V8 5.9 pipeline. Anecdotally, microbenchmark-style code regresses slightly, real-world code improves by as much as 2x. Exciting times.

Matthias247 2 days ago 4 replies      
This just motivated me to play around a little bit with JS async/await implementation. What I found interesting is that async functions will always return promises, even if an immediate value could be returned. Like for example in the following function:

 async function getFromCacheOrRemote() { if (random()) { return "Got it"; } else { await DoSomethingLongRunnning(); return "Got from network"; } }
The function will return a Promise independent of which branch is taken, although it could return a string for the first branch. Does anybody know the reason? From a consumer point of view it does not matter if the consumer uses await, since await accepts both immediates and Promises. Is it because always returning promises is more convenient for users which use Promise combinators instead of await and less bug-prone? Or does it maybe even benefit JS runtime optimizations if the returntype is always a Promise - even though the promise in both cases might be of a different subtype?

For most applications it probably doesn't matter anyway. However returning and awaiting immediate values eliminates an allocation and eventloop iteration compared to using a Promise, which is helpful for high-performance code. This is why C# now introduced custom awaitables and things like ValueTask<T>.

riccardomc 1 day ago 0 replies      
It really is a significant release: the world 'significant' is used in 7 of the first 13 lines of the release statement.


samueloph 2 days ago 2 replies      

It looks like somebody needs to set up the deb repository for 8.x, the installation script[1] is there, but there's no repo[2] for the node 8.x itself.

I also think this[3] url needs to get an update to reflect the new release.

edit-> Considering Debian Stretch will be released June 17th, it would be nice to have a repo for this release, i mean ..node_8.x/dists/stretch/Release.. instead of only jessie and sid's.


bricss 2 days ago 0 replies      
Long awaited release full of joy!
curiousgal 2 days ago 5 replies      

I just finished cleaning my home folder out of the ~100,000 files npm created over the past couple of months. I just build interesting Node projects I come across to check them out and it's gotten that big. I wonder how it's like for regular node devs.

cheapsteak 2 days ago 2 replies      
>node-inspect has been integrated directly into the Node.js runtime

Is node-inspect the same thing as node-inspector or something else?

__s 2 days ago 0 replies      
Looking forward to writing unit tests for luwa. Node v8.0 should include wasm 1.0
k__ 2 days ago 1 reply      
The promisify stuff looks rather clunky. Aren't there better options?
p5k 2 days ago 3 replies      
Notejs should get promise versions of its current callback-based APIs:

 const fs = require("fs"); fs.writeFile("Hello, World", "helloworld.txt", (error)=>{ if(error) throw error; console.log("done!"); });
Should be:

 const fs = require("fs"); fs.writeFilePromise("Hello, World", "helloworld.txt").then(()=>console.log("done!"),error=>console.error(error));

TLDR Stock Options tldroptions.io
519 points by ingve  9 hours ago   144 comments top 32
orthoganol 7 hours ago 6 replies      
Yep, IMO unless you are a founder, if your company isn't one of the top companies of the decade your 4-6 years of pay-cut toil as an early employee will likely just not be worth it, at all.

The expected value of working at an early startup gets overestimated, by a lot. If you're optimizing your career, either make the most you can at an established company, or start a startup.

Or... work at an enlightened startup, that understands the state of affairs, and offers really generous lifestyle advantages - i.e. go work remotely for a couple months if you want, otherwise they are just exploiting misinformed young people and their founders likely have some ego issues.

tsm 4 hours ago 2 replies      
I'll never forget when a startup tried to poach me to be Employee #2 or 3 and refused to even match my previous salary and suggested that I really wasn't taking their equity (.15%, I think?) seriously enough. I told them that if they had a billion dollar exit in five years it still wouldn't bring me up to what I wanted, and then they said, "Well, all the tech guys we talked to said $YOUR_COMPANY overpays by 20%. We also think that we're spending too much time talking about money here and are worried you have the wrong priorities".
eries 8 hours ago 2 replies      
Our goal with building this was not to be comprehensive, but to give founders and employees a way to have a more productive conversation about options and what they are worth. Too many startup employees I meet don't properly value the options they have, and too many potential hires don't negotiate for the right things, and wind up disappointed.

We hope this will take a small step towards correcting this problem.

johnny99 8 hours ago 3 replies      
This is fantastically useful both as a side-of-the-barn estimator, and a teaching tool. Thanks!

Two things a lot of startup employees are unaware of that are worth highlighting: they actually have to buy their options, which eats into returns, and that if they leave the company they have a limited window (30 days, typically) in which to do so. In would behoove them to save/plan for this fact.

calcsam 6 hours ago 1 reply      
It's easy to point all the details that matter in valuing your stock options -- liquidity preferences, strike price, options vs RSUs. The genius stroke here is to focus on the two big details that matter (% ownership and exit value) and focused on that.

Caveat: this doesn't work in a "down exit" less than the previous round's value.

As @bethcodes says, this is not a calculator, because while these two numbers will get you within a factor of 2, knowing the details will help you get even closer.

(Disclosure: I built a calculator to help you do that: http://www.optionvalue.io/calculator/)

temp246810 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Shit could always hit the fan though.

I joined Zenefits when everyone had dollar signs in their eyes. It felt like the roaring 20s (or at least the accounts I've heard of them).

How are they doing nowadays?

I always say don't compromise on salary for equity. Compromise for the experience, for an entrance into the field, because the chick at the counter was digging you, but not because of some payout you think you'll get in the future.

bumbledraven 7 hours ago 1 reply      
From a purely monetary and risk-based viewpoint, whether to join a start-up depends on how much money you already have.

Suppose you regard tldroptions.io's probability distributions and outcomes as correct, and the only thing you care about is maximizing the long-term rate of goal of your capital. Then the Kelly Criterion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_criterion , a.k.a. Fortune's Formula) says that you should try to maximize the geometric mean of your capital, which amounts to maximizing the expected logarithm of your capital.

To make this concrete, suppose you are choosing between two options:

- (Startup): Working at series C+ start-up for three years, where you receive 1% equity and $100k/yr salary, and have a 20% chance of getting ~$60 million in 3 years (according to tldroptions.io)

- (AmaGooFaceSoft): Working at AmaGooFaceSoft for three years, where you receive $300k/yr total comp (according to patio11)

For simplicity, I will ignore taxes and the time value of money. All monetary amounts below are in millions of dollars. If you have no money in the bank to start with, the geometric means of your alternatives after 3 years are:

- (Startup): exp(.2 log[60+0.3 ] + .8 log[0.3]) = $0.86 million

- (AmaGooFaceSoft) = $0.9 million

In this case, AmaGooFaceSoft is slightly better.

On the other hand, suppose you already have $1 million. After 3 years you will still have the $1 million, plus your salary and whatever money you get from your equity. Here the geometric means are:

- (Startup) exp(0.2 log[6+1+0.3] + .8 log[1 + 0.3]) = $2.8 million

- (AmaGooFaceSoft): 1+0.9 = $1.9 million

In this case, it's better to join the start-up.

The base salary matters a lot. If you have no money in the bank, but you get $150k year at the startup instead of $100k, then the geometric mean of the Startup option after 3 years is better than that of AmaGooFaceSoft:

- (Startup): exp(.2 log[60+0.45 ] + .8 log[0.45]) = $1.2 million

duderific 7 hours ago 6 replies      
I have a bunch of options in my company, but I don't know what the total number outstanding are, so I have no idea what percentage of the company I own.1) Is this a common scenario?2) Is there a way I can find out what the total number outstanding are?
pcmaffey 34 minutes ago 0 replies      
Fyi to the site developer: I highly recommend giving the links at the bottom of the page their own routes, as clicking on one makes it impossible to use the browser back button and return to the main page.
Midaber 7 hours ago 0 replies      
There's also another result: negative!

You could owe taxes on money you never saw. Under the AMT rules, if you exercise options at a discounted price, you have to consider the discount as "income". If several years later, when you're ready to sell and the stock is below what you paid for it, you'll still owe the taxes on your discounted price.

Ask your tax person for the details before engaging in any stock option purchase.

gesman 7 hours ago 1 reply      
+ Most new sparkly eyed employees who sacrificed cash pay for options are blissfully unaware of preferred shared.

This could keep slider at $0.00 for a longer (further on the right side).

dsr_ 8 hours ago 1 reply      
A QA engineer loads up a webpage and orders 0.1 percent of a company. Then 1%. Then back to 0.1%. Then clicks the down arrow -- ah, zero percent.

Then clicks the down arrow again. Negative numbers ensue.

True story, except I'm not usually a QA engineer.

ndonnellan 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Needs an NPV field and equivalent effective average salary difference per year. :-)
wtvanhest 7 hours ago 1 reply      
This is an area that YC has the oppotunity to step up and lead founders to be transparent but chooses not to. I wish i understood why.
tlrobinson 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Are these numbers accurate for "% of companies will never exit"?

Seed 74%

Series A 65%

Series B 68%

Series C+ 71%

If so I'm a little surprised that seed and series C+ companies have approximately the same chances never exiting.

capoDanger 8 hours ago 1 reply      
Nice app! I have to admit this made me chuckle:

> Instead of trying to get the right answer, we set out to build a tool that could get an answer.

I'm curious though, from where did you get the numbers about the likelihood of an exit? I thought it was pretty interesting that a Series C is statistically less likely to make you money than a Series A, according to this.

anovikov 8 hours ago 3 replies      
Why probability of exit of series B company lower than series A? That sounds, at least, counterintuitive.
godelski 6 hours ago 2 replies      
I find a more important question is "What percent should I ask for?"

The company I work for is about to get major investment and they are transitioning from an LLC. Only the 3 founders have equity currently. As engineers we have no idea how much to ask for. Because we have already been working without equity. How do we account for the years we've worked? Or that our salaries aren't that great right now.

flavor8 5 hours ago 1 reply      
"This simulation doesn't estimate taxation at all."

Well, then it's misleading.

Between AMT, capital gains / income tax, there's potential for a huge chunk of what you might earn to be removed.

i_live_ther3 8 hours ago 4 replies      
Correct me if I'm wrong. But from what I tested you get $0 unless the IPO/sell is over $40M. No matter if Seed or Series C or how much of the company you own.
mericsson 8 hours ago 1 reply      
Links don't appear to be working to https://captable.io or https://angel.co/clear/how_much
chrisballinger 8 hours ago 2 replies      
Shouldn't a TLDR about stock options include critical information like 83(b) election, etc?
scosman 5 hours ago 1 reply      
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be assuming a seed round valuation of $40 million (it's returning $0 unless the exit is > $40m). That's absurd.

Edit: the assumption of 0.01% is also absurd.

A simplified calculator should include reasonable defaults. This is like a mortgage calculator called tldrCanYouAffordAHouse.com that assumes 25% interest rates and doesn't disclose that.

rebuilder 8 hours ago 0 replies      
So taking the numbers at face value, we should be able to calculate the max acceptable cost you should be willing to incur to get those stock options. If you get, e.g. a 20% chance at a payout of 500 000 USD, not allowing for interest you might earn if applicable, or opportunity cost, whatever you need to do to get the options should not be worth more than 100 000 usd.

Reality is probably a little fuzzier than that, though.

siliconc0w 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Maybe add a field for salary difference vs 'expected market rate' and compute the amount of money you'd be looking at over six years investing the difference in something like a vanguard fund.

As an example - say you traded around 60k a year in cash in return for higher equity. In six years you're looking at around half a mil which means with, say .2 in a Series A, you're looking at a pretty big exit (i.e 700M) before you even have a chance of breaking even. This is obviously a terrible choice (i.e care for 20 dollars or a chance at 20 dollars)

To make it 'worth it', from an 'expected value' POV you'd need to make 2-3 million on around a 3.5B exit which are, of course, exceedingly rare.

You also have to be careful about things like options windows on exit, tricky term sheets with liquidation preferences for preferred shares, etc.

I'm going through this process now and it's shocking how most people really have no idea how this stuff works. Even with recruiters/HR/CTOs/etc who deal with this stuff day to day.

jredburn 8 hours ago 2 replies      
Something feels off with the data here. 65% of Series A companies will never exit, but 71% of Series C+ companies will never exit?

Edit: Thought about this a little deeper and it is possible with a lot of companies exiting prior to the Series C, but suspect the data set of Series C+ companies may just be too small?

otto_ortega 5 hours ago 1 reply      
It doesn't matter what percentage of a "seed company" I put, if it has a "low exit" (<$25M) I get $0... How is that possible?
tnt128 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Sorry if I missed something obvious, is the number averaged out per year or total over 6ish years? (nowhere mentioned on website or help link)
sjg007 3 hours ago 0 replies      
The answer is to start a startup. Before that, work at a startup. See if you like it. Specifically, work at a YC startup then apply to YC.
kmonsen 7 hours ago 1 reply      
Does this include dilution?
hvmonk 8 hours ago 0 replies      
hijinks 7 hours ago 0 replies      

Answer is $0

Kubernetes by Example kubernetesbyexample.com
583 points by rbanffy  1 day ago   128 comments top 17
eeZi 1 day ago 5 replies      
For anyone interested in Kubernetes: Red Hat's OpenShift is worth taking a look at.

It's upstream Kubernetes + a PaaS framework built in top of it.

It takes care of role-based access control, has a secured Docker registry (prevents applications from pulling each other's source code), Jenkins integration and can automatically build, push and deploy your applications.

Our team started using it and it's great. The documentation is top-notch (it's probably the best docs I've ever seen in an open source project).

I've seen many teams re-invent the wheel over and over again, when OpenShift already does most of what they need.

Happy to answer questions!

https://www.openshift.org/ (`oc cluster up` and a running Docker is all it takes for a first test)

Docs: https://docs.openshift.org/latest/welcome/index.html

Blog: https://blog.openshift.com/

robotmay 1 day ago 3 replies      
I've been playing with kubernetes for the past month and I'm just now deciding not to go with it for our new production systems, mostly because I just don't understand it well enough to know how to fix it if it goes wrong.

There's a lot of cool things about kubernetes (e.g. I had an automated SSL cert fetcher for LetsEncrypt that applied to any SSL ingress I added) but it still does some weird things sometimes (like constantly trying to schedule pods on instances without enough spare memory, and then killing other pods because of that; fairly certain that's not supposed to happen).

I think I'll revisit it next year and hope that it's a bit easier to get into. I'm especially hopeful about using it with Spinnaker and some sort of CI, though I couldn't find anything lighter weight than Jenkins that was straightforward to get set up on it.

whistlerbrk 1 day ago 6 replies      
As someone who stepped out of the devops world for a minute and is now trying to convert my companies infrastructure to use these tools, this is very useful and I'm reading through the whole thing.

However, I'm still confused by how the tools in the ecosystem interact with the capabilities of various cloud providers. That is, we're using DigitalOcean and Docker and I want to get our infra to a point where I can easily spin up a brand new staging environment (staging-2 say) with an isolated postgres node using an attached volume which also say runs redis, a proxy node, a couple of nodes for application servers, and a couple of nodes for background jobs, all w/private networking, secure, w/non-root access, and run a quick task to seed dbs.

I just can't seem to find guides which put the whole thing together, just pieces and I'm lost in researching an overwhelming number of tools from Ansible to Terraform to Kubernetes to Helm, etc, etc, etc.

cyphar 1 day ago 1 reply      
I would recommend updating this to describe ReplicaSets[1] over ReplicationControllers. They are very similar and serve the same purpose, but the huge difference is that ReplicaSets have selector support -- meaning that you can require N replicas of pods that have X selector (rather than requiring N replicas of pods with the exact same spec).

[1]: https://kubernetes.io/docs/concepts/workloads/controllers/re...

matart 1 day ago 5 replies      
I host several smallish PHP/HTML sites for family, friends, and a few clients. Is Kubernetes a viable solution. These sites get very little traffic.

What I am looking for is: - Ability to easily deploy containers - Ability to route by url - Ability to swap out containers without affecting others

Does Kubernetes solve this problem for me? Is there a better option?

rhizome 1 day ago 1 reply      
Might be helpful to have some text that explains the bare list of jargon on the front page, is the idea that readers should already know the lingo? I have thoughts about what's going on here.
AdrianRossouw 1 day ago 0 replies      
We've been exploring openshift and minishift for a project for the last few weeks, and we've come back very impressed.

We especially like the interface they built that ties everything together.

jalfresi 1 day ago 5 replies      
So, trying to get a clear handle on just what Kubernetes is - its basically supervisord but for containers, across a pool of servers? With the addition of:

- A complete application e.g. wordpress + mysql containers, can be represented as pods

- Pods can be "scheduled" e.g. auto-scaled, across "nodes" e.g. servers, with load balancing etc

Is that right?

amq 1 day ago 2 replies      
I've found Docker Swarm Mode to be refreshingly simple after playing with Kubernetes. Am I crazy to have it in production?
beat 1 day ago 1 reply      
Thanks for this. As much interest as there is in kubernetes right now, it's surprising how little good documentation there is.
dominotw 1 day ago 4 replies      
A replication controller (RC) is a supervisor for long-running pods.

A deployment is a supervisor for pods and replica sets

So what's the difference between these supervisors?

philip1209 1 day ago 0 replies      
For figuring out how to write pod and service specs - I really like looking at the Helm Charts source code:


(Helm aims to be a package manager for kubernetes, and its packages are called Charts)

nikon 1 day ago 1 reply      
It'd be great to read something about how people are handling logging in production with K8S+ELK for example.
bogomipz 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is a great! Thanks Openshift team.
traderalex81 1 day ago 0 replies      
We just recently decided to go with Openshift Origin after a long debate and POC's. We're currently using Mesos/marathon with a bunch of custom deployment scripts which are terrible, deployment issues etc..
skyisblue 1 day ago 1 reply      
Anyone have experience with AWS ECS and Kubernetes? How do they compare?
cookiecaper 1 day ago 5 replies      
First, please consider whether you actually need any of the Kubernetes stuff. The odds are that you don't. A huge number of people are switching to k8s just because it's the cool thing to do, without understanding any of the implications. Most companies have to undergo major software rearchitectures and renovations to make good use of the featureset that Kubernetes promises.

Second, please don't run a database in it, omg. See point one. If there were just one application that is not reasonable to run in a container, it would be a database.

Third, yes, this seems to be the new way things happen in the software world. I'm worried about what tools we'll need to develop to overcome the cacophony of noise and half-solutions that is incumbent in the GitHub era.

How to Sleep theatlantic.com
635 points by ALee  4 days ago   261 comments top 39
teolandon 4 days ago 17 replies      
My biggest struggle with sleep is that I'm always excited to do stuff, and always feel like I'm not done with my day. Exceptions are when something happens and I end up feeling very depressed during the day, and simply want to shut down and do nothing.

Usually, I get so infatuated with a script I'm writing, a new program I discovered, a bug that I need to resolve, a book that I'm reading, some concept that I'm thinking of, that my mind just keeps on being active, and wants to keep working. It's the worst when I'm working on my computer, due to the blue light (I've started wearing yellow sunglasses to minimize the effect), while it's a bit better when I'm reading or listening to music or thinking.

In any case, this is a great article. I feel like small amounts of sleep has been the greatest inhibitor of my performance in... anything really. Being dumb and young I felt like I could still function correctly, but I really started noticing that I had better tournament results when actually sleeping 8 hours, while my results on all other days were lackluster. I read up on a lot of things and convinced myself that sleeping enough is essential. I still slip up and don't even go on my bed at the right times, my sleep schedule goes all over the place for a lot of different reasons, but I'm really trying. I feel like I might need to seek some professional help on this, but I'll still take it as far as possible before that.

xupybd 4 days ago 1 reply      
>So either that is the amount of sleep that keeps people well, or thats the amount that makes them least likely to lie about being sick when they want to skip work. Or maybe people who were already sick with some chronic condition were sleeping more than thator lessas a result of their illness. Statistics are tough to interpret.

Love that, no lazy journalism, no ridiculous claims. Just the facts and some possible implications.

ericdykstra 3 days ago 0 replies      
No small art is it to sleep: it is necessary for that purpose to keep awake all day.

Ten times a day must thou overcome thyself: that causeth wholesome weariness, and is poppy to the soul.

Ten times must thou reconcile again with thyself; for overcoming is bitterness, and badly sleep the unreconciled.

Ten truths must thou find during the day; otherwise wilt thou seek truth during the night, and thy soul will have been hungry.

Ten times must thou laugh during the day, and be cheerful; otherwise thy stomach, the father of affliction, will disturb thee in the night.

When night cometh, then take I good care not to summon sleep. It disliketh to be summonedsleep, the lord of the virtues!

But I think of what I have done and thought during the day. Thus ruminating, patient as a cow, I ask myself: What were thy ten overcomings?

And what were the ten reconciliations, and the ten truths, and the ten laughters with which my heart enjoyed itself?Thus pondering, and cradled by forty thoughts, it overtaketh me all at oncesleep, the unsummoned, the lord of the virtues.


wakkaflokka 3 days ago 6 replies      
I could write an essay about my battle with sleep. I'm in my 30's and I finally think it's solved.

Sleeping meds, sleep studies, CBT-I, you name it - I've done it.

My ultimate solution ended up being:

- Earplugs

- Exercise

- Waking up the same time every single day, no matter how late I stay up. CBT-I had me wake up at 6:30 am every morning, and go to bed at 1 am. After a week of exhaustion, I started falling asleep like a rock. Then my therapist gradually had me go to sleep earlier and earlier until my time-to-sleep was still short and I had few awakenings during the night, but felt refreshed the next day. Turned out to be just around 6.5 hours a night

- No coffee after 3 pm

There are still nights where I have an active mind and have trouble sleeping, but I'll just let it happen without constantly worrying "oh no, I'm not gonna get ___ hours of sleep tonight". Because the minute you try to force yourself to sleep, it's over.

kutkloon7 3 days ago 1 reply      
Great article. I especially like the interpretation of the statistics by the author, which is, well, hardly any interpretation at all:

"One 2014 study of more than 3,000 people in Finland found that the amount of sleep that correlated with the fewest sick days was 7.63 hours a night for women and 7.76 hours for men. So either that is the amount of sleep that keeps people well, or thats the amount that makes them least likely to lie about being sick when they want to skip work. Or maybe people who were already sick with some chronic condition were sleeping more than thator lessas a result of their illness. Statistics are tough to interpret."

Contrasted with articles that take one example (a 94-year old making a breakthrough in some field) and directly generalize it ("to be a genius, think like a 94-year-old"), this is a much healthier and saner approach to interpreting statistics.

(I didn't make this example up; it was on hacker news)

RandomInteger4 4 days ago 9 replies      
I'm not sure what the long term effects of chronic melatonin supplementation are, but I'll find out eventually. I've been taking between 3-6mg of melatonin every night for the past few years (2011?) It's almost required. Without it my sleep cycle seems fine at first, but then gets out of whack as I can't seem to keep a circadian rhythm in line with the rest of society / the earth's rotation.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I can't function mentally without caffeine. I tried going off caffeine a few times, and while the withdrawal effects were horrible, they eventually passed and everything felt great except my ability to concentrate on anything. Sadly I can't afford to see a doctor for my ADHD meds. While caffeine helps, it still leaves much to be desired.

Exercise helps immensely, both in terms of sleep and ability to concentrate, but at some point I injured my upper back (rhomboids and rotator cuff muscles), so I can't get the same level of exercise I had before.

manibatra 4 days ago 0 replies      
Personally the change that has helped me the most has been mental. I used to feel "guilty" of going to bed early, not working to exhaustion. Now I view sleep as something to enjoy. Just letting go of that guilt has me sleep a lot better. From being a light sleeper I have gone to be able to sleep through my housemates blaring loud music.
lphnull 3 days ago 1 reply      
I'm 30 years old now.

I was able to live on 4-6 hrs of sleep a night all the way up to age 25-28. That's when sleep started becoming a problem.

At age 30, I absolutely need 8 hours of sleep minimum average of sleep, but that average has to be accumulated over the course of a week! That means that a single night of sleeping less and doing strenuous tasks on a linux terminal now takes a toll on me in ways that I have never felt before in my youth.

Full disclaimer: I am a blue collar worker at a non-computer job who physically excerts myself and am very fit as a result of my job. This is part of why sleep is mandatory for me.

The older you get, the more sleep you need and the less alcohol your body can handle. This is a universal truth that people <age 25 have a hard time accepting because everybody has to be a superman of course.

0xcde4c3db 4 days ago 2 replies      
I guess it's once again time for my standard PSA response to this genre: various chronic medical conditions can interfere with sleep. If you consistently have trouble sleeping or sleeping well over an extended period of time, it very well could be something more than "poor sleep habits".
caio1982 4 days ago 0 replies      
It actually does not tell how to sleep, it only discusses common sense strategies like taking melatonine and avoiding (or not) caffeine. Kind of a let down.
jedisct1 3 days ago 0 replies      
I don't have a computer at home any more.

Granted, the office is at walking distance, and I can go there 24/7, but not having a computer at home recently made a huge difference.

Once I go back home, I don't have the temptation of hacking something really quick, which will eventually last longer that expected, and I'll then keep thinking about it all night long.

Verdict? Better sleep. And I can get up earlier. Overall I feel better and more productive, if only because there is a better separation between work (including on OSS projects) and personal life.

KennyCason 3 days ago 0 replies      
> The original studies seemed to say yes. But when the military put soldiers in a lab to make certain they stayed awake, performance suffered.

One minor piece of anecdotal evidence here. I have done a few 5-6 day sleep deprivation experiments in my life. I've stayed up for 3 days more times than I can count. I also used to regularly sleep every other day for long chunks of time. It's something that I could do much better when I was younger, and I try to avoid this now as I regularly get sick when I don't sleep for extended periods of time nowadays.

Firstly, performance (particularly my short term memory) always suffered. Sometimes if not active, or sitting for long periods of time I'd also get pain in my joints. Typically, when I fall asleep or start feeling tired it's because I enter a small boring, quiet homely environment (i.e. go home, or sit in a quiet room, or watch tv). My secret to staying awake was constant activity like walking around, talking to people, hydrating (water), small snacks, and walking some more, etc.

I feel that the effects of sleep deprivation hit the hardest when I'm not being stimulated physically. As such, I think dragging someone into a lab would have a harsh effect on one's performance. While I think no matter what you will suffer from performance degradation, I would love to see some contrast between performance given different environments/habits.

ashark 4 days ago 6 replies      
1) no glowing screens at all after the sun goes down.

2) no glowing screens at all after the sun goes down.

3) no glowing screens at all after the sun goes down.

4) very low candle-temperature lighting only after dark. Especially try to keep it out of your direct line of sight.

It'll work, but 1-3 are hard.

rrggrr 4 days ago 7 replies      
1. Room temperature should be between 60 - 67 degrees F.

2. No electronics, games, and minimal to no blue light 30min to 1hour before sleep.

3. Do not exercise less than 3 hours before sleep. Exception: sex.

4. Coffee and other stimulants before 12pm, not after.

5. Avoid naps longer than 15 minutes day of.

6. Stretch before going to sleep, particularly if you experience minor restless legs or periodic leg movements.

7. Avoid alcohol, will reduce sleep quality.

8. Avoid stimulating TV, conversations or books before sleep.

9. Controversial: Sleep in late if you can. Adequate sleep is more important than consistent sleep rhythm. My opinion only.

aarohmankad 4 days ago 9 replies      
What are your recommendations for dealing with noisy roommates/hallmates?

There have been nights where I had to put on my ANC headphones to get some peace and quiet. (I've heard a good pair of earplugs may work?)

herbcso 3 days ago 0 replies      
Is nobody else concerned with the implications of what losing sleep does to the doctor going through residency? I've always thought that was insane. The author even admits to having observed the detrimental effects first-hand, yet never suggests that this practice should be abandoned - why is that!?

I as a patient have enough of a problem giving myself into the care of a doctor-in-training, why does s/he have to sleep-deprived on top of not being fully trained? Is this some sort of macho thing, or a "well, I went through this hazing, so you gotta do it, too" kind of thing?

Somebody please enlighten me as to what the point of this seemingly counter-productive practice is!

bobjordan 3 days ago 0 replies      
My experience with Melatonin is that about 1.5 mg per night is a game changer. I travel across the Pacific Ocean several times per year and it got to where I was a stick of dynamite temper wise for a week after each trip, just not able to cope with any irritations, due to Jetlag. On top of that, just the general stress of being an entrepreneur resulted in bad sleep. For some reason, I bought the melatonin, and I'm very glad I did it. Now, I sleep like I did when I was in elementary school. Lots of dreams and even wake up with solutions to problems that I went to bed thinking about.
ysavir 4 days ago 0 replies      
The article mentions William Dement, one of the pioneer researchers on sleep. His book The Promise of Sleep is a great and easy read, and I absolutely recommend it for anyone looking to learn more about the subject and the history behind the study of sleep.
chippy 3 days ago 0 replies      
My "One Simple Trick" to help limit active thinking when in bed, and thus make it easier to sleep is to write the thoughts down, pen on paper.

By thinking I mean things like being excited about an event, going over a conversation, thinking about some code, an idea, things to do tomorrow, errands etc. All things that can be literally dumped onto paper and stored. In my experience I have found that pen and paper work better than typing into a device.

Now, I still seem to wake up multiple times during the night, but it's not because my brain is excited anymore.

branchless 4 days ago 0 replies      
This is an interesting article if only for the nugget that only 1% think they function well on 4-5 hours (though they may be mistaken).

The title isn't great - it cautions against common fallacies about aids to sleeping.

OJFord 3 days ago 1 reply      
> In 2013, a 24-year-old advertising copywriter in Indonesia died after prolonged sleep deprivation, collapsing a few hours after tweeting 30 hours of working and still going strooong. She went into a coma and died the next morning.

Things like this always slightly scare me.

I have been awake consecutively for far longer, and on several occasions. But does that mean I just can - or would I really be risking death each time?

charliemol 2 days ago 0 replies      
>In one study published in the journal Sleep, researchers kept people just slightly sleep deprivedallowing them only six hours to sleep each nightand watched the subjects performance on cognitive tests plummet. The crucial finding was that throughout their time in the study, the sixers thought they were functioning perfectly well.

>Effective sleep habits, like many things, seem to come back to self-awareness.

One of the things I've noticed is that it's really hard to police your own sleep schedule, especially if you aren't aware of the consequences of losing a few hours of sleep. I'm working on a bot that helps you get to bed earlier, and our power users often come to us with a really clear understanding of what happens when they don't get enough sleep (e.g. "I perform way worse on my Army fitness test", "I'm not focused enough to do my side project after work") and still need to set up systems to keep themselves accountable on a daily basis.

That said, I think there's a much larger "zombie population" of the "sixers" described above that isn't getting enough sleep and simply isn't particularly aware of it. From a population health standpoint, the question then becomes: How do we get people to appreciate the effect of getting a full 7-9 hours of sleep when they don't explicitly feel the effects on a daily basis? Not only that, but how do we get them to unwind and prioritize getting good night's sleep at the time of day when willpower is low and Netflix temptations are high.

The CEO of Netflix somewhat flippantly declared sleep their biggest competition, and I think they're crushing the competition right now.


On the bright side there are people who have used our product and seen it make a pretty big difference. The trick was getting them to start with a very unambitious bedtime goal relative to their average bedtime, and gradually make the bedtime earlier week over week until they've dismantled their bad sleep habits.

esseti 3 days ago 2 replies      
"Or, sometimes preferable, read something on paper.". Now, to read on paper we need light, so the problem is not solved (altought the ligth is not directly from the device into the eyes). But the real question is, if I use the kindle with its light that lights up the screen, will it be the same as using a phone? or what?
smartbit 3 days ago 0 replies      
William Dement gave a Google Tech talk on September 23, 2008. Dement recalls that Randy Gardner who stayed awake for 11 days in 1964, when asked some 40years later "would you do this again?" he replied "No way would I do this again" [0]

Very interesting from Dement's talk is that equilibrium daily average sleep for completely health young adults is 8:15 50min [1]. Most people I meet contest these results and state that they can work optimal with less than 7h25m daily sleep.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAw1z8GdE8&t=1310

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hAw1z8GdE8&t=28m29s

mansilladev 3 days ago 1 reply      
How not to sleep:


I read this article 8 hours ago. Now I'm in bed, staring at this screen, typing this comment at 5 AM.

mythrwy 4 days ago 2 replies      
I've had great luck with these videos.



I went through a phase a few years ago where I'd fall asleep only to wake up a short time later with mind racing, then be up half the night and tired the next day. This went on for some months and was very annoying.

These videos cured that phase right away. I don't listen to them much anymore but they really worked. It wasn't just staying asleep that was cured, the quality of the sleep seemed much better. Still listen on occasion if having trouble getting in "sleep mode".

ziglef 3 days ago 1 reply      
I consider myself one of those short-sleepers. Ever since I was a kid I averaged 5-6h of sleep a day.

While the differences perceived (which can always be misleading) from sleeping 6 or 8 hours weren't noticeable, if I slept 4-5 for a week my short term memory would suffer, reflexes and split second decision making (think fast passed multiplayer shooters) would also suffer.

But what I noticed was that although the split second decision process would come back after a good night sleep, short memory would take me a whole 3-4 days to come back at its finest.

Obviously this is all what I observed and not to be taken seriously, because as we know observing and understanding oneself is one of the hardest tasks out there.

Just my 2c

bhavyapruthi 3 days ago 0 replies      
"Dolphins are said to sleep with only half their brain at a time, keeping partially alert for predators. Many of us spend much of our lives in a similar state."This is definitely deep.
diyseguy 2 days ago 0 replies      
For those struggling with caffeine addiction and poor sleep I strongly recommend rutaecarpine. Take one a few hours before bedtime and it deactivates the caffeine so you can sleep.
drukenemo 3 days ago 0 replies      
A recent TED I watched linked sleep deprivation with the speed one can develop Alzheimer


m-j-fox 3 days ago 0 replies      
Whatever you do, don't click the video at the bottom of the article unless you have a few hours to kill. Dr. James is an impossibly engaging and fun-to-watch youtuber and there goes my memorial day.
Izmaki 3 days ago 0 replies      
Reading this on Monday morning already late for work and wondering when I can have a nap...
notyourloops 3 days ago 0 replies      
I had trouble with insomnia until I took up the practice of meditation. It was not my intention to solve my insomnia via meditation, but that's what happened incidentally.
chillytoes 2 days ago 0 replies      
This was a pretty weak article. Usually The Atlantic packs a powerful punch. This seemed like clickbait.
TheAdamist 3 days ago 0 replies      
New to sleeping with people, I find the actual sleeping part the tricky bit. Not my expectation at all.
bojanvidanovic 3 days ago 0 replies      
One of my cousins is in that 1% of people. He sleeps 4-5 hours a night and stays hyperactive all day. I'm so jealous of him!
bewe42 3 days ago 1 reply      
I can recommend "The effortless sleep method" by S. Stephens.
GoToRO 3 days ago 0 replies      
If you have problem sleeping do this: there will be some times when you will sleep better. What you have to do is go back 3-7 days and see what you did in those days and do more of that regularly.
michaele 3 days ago 0 replies      
Try 15-20 minutes of meditation right before you go to bed. I find it slows my mind, decreases stress and prepares my body to sleep deeply and well.
Enough with the dead butterflies emilydamstra.com
482 points by mjn  14 hours ago   136 comments top 25
syphilis2 10 hours ago 4 replies      
I'm glad to have this pointed out to me. It's so "obvious" now that live butterflies don't look that way, I'll never not notice this now. It's similar to all the tricks video media uses for aesthetics and common familiarity: gun cocking noises, computer hacking images, punch sound effects, and the like. It also remind me of location specific tricks, such as how the pyramids of Giza, Egypt are shown in pictures, or how wildlife photographers sometimes do staged photoshoots.

I think it's a very good thing to be aware of this. So much of our information is received through indirect means, how many things do we watch on video without understanding how the image and sound has been enhanced? I've been surprised before to see something in person and realize the media representation is not accurate.

murbard2 11 hours ago 5 replies      
To be honest, the dead butterflies do look aesthetically more pleasing. I can't tell if it's because the image is culturally ingrained or if the shape is simply more elegant. That said, I welcome this knowledge which opens a whole new opportunity for me to be pedantic at parties.
aurizon 7 hours ago 1 reply      
Sadly, butterflies and other insects are pinned like this for entomological examination, which requires the wings, antenna, legs etc are fully extended so that all manner of detail can be seen. Many species are different in minor ways, having reached a very similar body design by evolutionary convergence. Numbers of spines, hairs, scales etc are all enumerated. Once dry, they get very very brittle and you can not spread wings/legs etc in fear of breakage. It sounds strange, but a number of beetles, butterflies and other insects have been discovered that look the same - until you examine some of these esoteric aspects. Genomic analysis is the gold standard in these matters. read a few of these search hits. https://www.google.ca/search?q=entomological+examination+of+...
rrauenza 58 minutes ago 0 replies      
My wife had an interesting perspective I'll share:

"Maybe it helps to think of illustrated butterflies as a kind of iconography...One of the first things little kids (especially girls) learn to draw is a butterfly (meaning, a dead butterfly). It will not have anything like natural coloring, and might have big friendly eyes, but will definitely have two curling antennae and spread, uplifted wings. Its a heraldic image, like a lion rampant. Lions dont look like that, but the symbol says what it needs to."

Now all I can think of is the perl6 butterfly, Camelia...

c3534l 12 hours ago 2 replies      
This is one of those things you can't unsee. I'm going to be walking around the world now seeing butterflies drawn in death-poses.
sopooneo 12 hours ago 5 replies      
I think this may just be another instance of the coconut affect.


J5892 9 hours ago 1 reply      
LPT: If a friend has a tattoo that you now recognize as a dead butterfly, you probably shouldn't tell them.
strictnein 12 hours ago 3 replies      
Don't anyone show her what a human heart actually looks like.
watty 13 hours ago 10 replies      
I guess we all have pet peeves but this one (while interesting) is a bit silly. Pillow designers are looking to create an attractive pillow that will sell - let's face it, a dead butterfly is more aesthetically pleasing than a living one due to the outstretched wings.
ManeSequins 11 hours ago 2 replies      
See also: ubiquitous depictions of bright red shrimp, crabs, and lobsters swimming around in the ocean.
mast 11 hours ago 1 reply      
I can understand how an illustrator could be bothered by something like this. It is your job to be accurate yet you see so many examples where others do not meet your own standards.

Slightly off topic (and related to moths not butterflies), but this sites includes wonderful detail on how moths are prepared high resolution scans:http://ottawa.moths.ca/technical.html

j_m_b 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Interesting article. Something else I'll notice everywhere, like bad kerning. Thanks ;)
mirimir 7 hours ago 0 replies      
One could write an analogous article about birds. In painting the 435 images in The Birds of America, John James Audubon probably shot at least a few of each species. And then stuffed and mounted them.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_James_Audubon#/media/File...

elmalto 1 hour ago 0 replies      
This is really incredible. Thank you for this insightful post
eth0up 4 hours ago 0 replies      
This lady's art is stunning. I highly recommend not leaving at the dead butterfly article. The portfolio, in particular.
roguecoder 8 hours ago 0 replies      
This is a great example of how detailed, specific nerd-ery about just about any topic can be super-cool and interesting!
erroneousfunk 12 hours ago 1 reply      
Fascinating! I have a dozen dead butterflies, pinned in frames at home (I really like http://www.bugunderglass.com/ if anyone's interested in unique home decorating -- I'm not associated with them in any way, but I've been buying their bugs for almost 6 years now!) and I used to raise moths from local caterpillars when I was a kid (you know, back before I found computers and actually played outside).

I knew the difference between dead and alive butterfly/moth wing positions, but never consciously noticed the difference in artistic depictions. Heck, I volunteer at the Boston Museum of Science every week and must have seen that Monarchs poster a hundred times without noticing.

Comparing art that "did it right" and art that "did it wrong" -- yeah, if you do it right, it looks a LOT more realistic and "lively," even if I wouldn't have known why before reading this article. I'll have to keep an eye out from now on!

_ph_ 12 hours ago 1 reply      
I never noticed, but it is indeed a bit odd that most drawings show butterflies in a position they would't assume while living. Of course there is artistic freedom, but when a realistic display is intended, a more true-to life posture should be used.
pvaldes 8 hours ago 0 replies      
This would be like to say "please stop to drawn the parts of a flower and opened fruits in botanical illustrations. Is gruesome to see all those mutilated plants".

There is a reason to drawn both wings in the same plane, is much easier to classificatory purposes and is needed in some special cases because butterflies can have totally different marks in its right and left wings.

notadoc 8 hours ago 1 reply      
I rarely see any butterflies these days
SomeStupidPoint 12 hours ago 2 replies      
Are their wings not outstretched mid flap?

I seem to recall that looking down on flying butterflies has them look an awful lot like I see in pictures, or even when they wiggle their wings perched, but that could be memory being fickle.

patorjk 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Although it's a silly pet peeve, it's interesting to realize that the standard pose society has adopted for butterflies is one in which they're typically dead. Definitely changes the way I look at pictures of butterflies.
pferde 12 hours ago 2 replies      
Please, enough with the blog sites that do not show any article at all without javascript!
natch 12 hours ago 2 replies      
OK you pronounce "Bejing" with a normal, regular, everyday hard 'j' sound as it's supposed to be pronounced (not some fake exotic sounding airy zzzhhhhhh sound you and everyone else just made up out of thin air) and I promise not to kill or pin any butterflies.

I really thought the peeve was going to be about pictures of butterflies on people's mouths (Silence of the Lambs). That bugs me, but I guess with the movie it was supposed to.

Ask HN: What are some examples of successful single-person businesses?
663 points by 1ba9115454  3 days ago   300 comments top 66
jasonkester 3 days ago 14 replies      
Careful with your terminology. "Successful" has different meanings for different people.

By my definition, for example, I run the most successful single-person business that I'm aware of. But it doesn't make millions, so it might not meet your definition at all.

My goal was to replace my day job with a software business that required as close to zero attention as possible, so that I could have time to spend on the things that actually matter to me.

The business brings in the equivalent of a nice Senior Developer salary, which is not what most people think of when they imagine a successful Startup. But it lets me work with a bunch of cool tech when I want to, and, more importantly, is automated to the point where Customer Service involves a quick 30 second - 10 minute email sweep over morning coffee. For me, that's a lot more valuable than a few more million dollars in the bank.

The cool thing about running your own business is that you get to decide on your own definition of success.

EDIT: I wrote a bit about how I got into this position, in case anybody is interested. It's not actually all that hard to do:


dhruvkar 3 days ago 2 replies      
Builtwith.com (one employee/founder and a part-time blogger) does an estimated $12M a year [1] assuming a 'few thousand' = 2000 paying customers.

"the Basic at $299 per month for customers that want lists of sites mainly for the purpose of lead generation; Pro at $495 per month, suited more for users that work in an industry using a lot of A/B testing and comparison-type data; and Enterprise at $995 per month, which covers all bases and allows sales teams with multiple people to all use the platform at once. Brewer says that in terms of paying users on the platform there is a few thousand and the split is about 40 percent Basic, 40 percent Pro and 20 percent Enterprise."

Similar thread a while ago [2]


2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12065355

Edit: specificity and formatting

jimminy 3 days ago 2 replies      
At some point scale will require you to hire, at least a few people, if you're really successful. But two examples that I can think of are Markus Frind (Plenty of Fish) and Markus Persson (Minecraft).


Markus Frind is probably the biggest. He spent 5 years (2003-2008) working on Plenty of Fish, and at that point it was bringing in about $5M/yr and had 3 employees.

When the site sold in 2015 for $575 million it was 70 employees, but he still owned 100% of the company.


Markus Persson would be another possible option, for the first $10-20M that Minecraft brought in he was the only person (aside from a contracted musician). And then for a while after that, it was him and his friend who was hired to manage the business side so he could focus on the programming work.

wriggler 3 days ago 2 replies      
I built and run StoreSlider[1]. It made ~$700,000 in 2016, mainly in affiliate revenue from eBay. Costs are essentially hosting (between two and five $10 Linodes, depending on load).

Took me some effort to built, but it's on autopilot now.

[1] https://www.storeslider.com

russellallen 3 days ago 3 replies      
Your problem will be definitional. The Rock earned ~ $65mm last year. Is he a 'one man company'? I guarantee he's billing through a services entity...

1: https://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2016/08/25/the-...

numbsafari 3 days ago 3 replies      
Isn't Tarsnap[1], by Colin Percival a great example of this? I'm surprised it wasn't the first thing mentioned since he's reasonably active on HN.

1: https://www.tarsnap.com/about.html

xchaotic 3 days ago 2 replies      
How do you define successful single-person? I've been running a one person consultancy for 12 years now, had to retrain quite a bit over the years, sometimes it was so busy that I outsourced pieces of work. It's been good enough that I have a house and no mortgage attached to it, all while spending almost enough time with my family - much more recently.This is what I wanted and I consider that a success in maintaining a work/life balance, working from home and having a good life in general.It's not quite 'fu' money yet, as I still ahve to work for a living, but I working towards that goal.I know a few good people that agree with this point of view - Basecamp/37 signals folks etc.
chrischen 3 days ago 3 replies      
I built and run Instapainting.com by myself. As of the date of this comment it is still only one employee (me). https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/instapainting

Things like customer support is outsourced to other startups, and of course the artists on the platform don't work for me, but could be if the company was structured differently (it's structured as a marketplace).

danieltillett 3 days ago 1 reply      
Now that I am no longer a single employee business (again) I can admit that I ran Mark II of my company on my own doing everything without outsourcing (sales, customer support, development, sysops, UI/UX, website design, copywriting, manuals, SEO, advertising, accounting, etc) making much more than seven figures in profit for quite a few years.

It probably wasnt the wisest idea to stay solo for so long, but the freedom of not having employees made me very reluctant to hire anyone again. The only reason I chose to hire is that the business' growth forced me make the decision to either turn away customers or hire staff. The people I have are great, but I do miss the days of doing everything myself without having to explain why something is important.

joelrunyon 3 days ago 3 replies      

Bootstrapped social networking site doing multiple 5-figures/month.

LeonidBugaev 3 days ago 1 reply      
Sidekiq by Mike Perham http://sidekiq.org/

Over 1MM annual revenue https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/sidekiq

sudhirj 3 days ago 1 reply      
There's pinboard, maciej still runs it solo, I think.
siner 3 days ago 1 reply      
Changu 3 days ago 4 replies      
The Flappy Bird creator said he made $50k per day from in app ads. But he pulled the game after a short while. Said because he felt guilty for making people play all day. Would love to know the whole story behind this.
hyperpallium 3 days ago 1 reply      
Problem is, "big for one person" is not big enough to be news, relative to all the companies. Once they get big enough for many to hear about them, they have to grown, to handle it. e.g. Notch (Minecraft)

Secondly, the best way to make solid, reliable money is to have a niche, without competition. So, you keep your mouth shut.

You'll probably most likely notice them in small, industry-oriented niches. Or... after they grow larter than one-person.

To give an answer: https://balsamiq.com/products/mockups/

majani 3 days ago 2 replies      
According to porn industry insiders, xvideos is run by a married couple. They are very secretive, but they definitely do millions in revenue annually.
mylh 3 days ago 3 replies      
We (two python developers) have started a SaaS SEO checker service [1] in February 2017 (took 4 month to develop from 0) and already have paying customers on our business plan. I completely agree with the definition of successful business when you have ability to do what you want when you want. I already have a couple of other websites generating revenue from advertising and all this allowed me to quit daily job 2 years ago. So definitely there are a lot of examples of successful single- (two-) person businesses out there.

[1] https://seocharger.com

avichalp 3 days ago 0 replies      
We can find few of them here https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses
galfarragem 3 days ago 0 replies      
Sublime Text was for a long time a single-person business.
speedyapoc 3 days ago 2 replies      
Not entirely single person, but I run Musi [1] with one partner. We have monthly revenues in the mid six figures with 2-3k a month in expenses.

[1] https://feelthemusi.com

webstartupper 3 days ago 0 replies      
I'm surprised no one has mentioned improvely.com by Dan Grossman.

I think it makes around $40K to $50K per month. Over the last few years, I've seen it grow from around $10K to $50K. That slow steady SaaS growth is pretty inspiring.

flgb 3 days ago 0 replies      
Daring Fireball by Jon Gruber (https://daringfireball.net).
xiaoma 3 days ago 1 reply      
If Satoshi Nakamoto is still alive and still has access to the coins he mined but never sold, they're already worth billions and the work has changed the world.
puranjay 3 days ago 1 reply      
I know some affiliate marketers who make $2M+ without any employees.

Apparently, ranking well for certain keywords (mostly web hosting and website builders) can be very, very lucrative.

sharkhacks 3 days ago 0 replies      
Here are a couple of awesome examples: Affiliate Marketer https://www.smartpassiveincome.com/ Patt is awesome, he actually shares his monthly income and expense statements. Started solo and now he hired a bunch of people.

Nathan Barry (http://nathanbarry.com/) the guy who started convertKit https://convertkit.com/

rachekalmir 3 days ago 1 reply      

Guy quit his job a year or two ago to develop this full-time and seems to be doing pretty well for himself. I use the client all the time as a developer.

eps 3 days ago 0 replies      
If I recall correctly, IMDB used to be a one-man show for a long time, up to and even after getting acquired by Amazon.
neals 3 days ago 0 replies      
Google > quora > 10 year old article > https://www.inc.com/magazine/20080901/the-other-number-ones....

But they have staff.

Large single-person startups? https://smallbiztrends.com/2014/07/successful-one-person-sta...

anovikov 3 days ago 1 reply      
I know a guy who does arbitrage of porn traffic and he makes $2M a month, already saved up $20M.
dqdo 3 days ago 1 reply      
The most successful one-man business is not in software. I know of a successful mediator. He charges $18000 to $20000 per day and has always been booked for the last 20 years.


elvirs 3 days ago 1 reply      
my business:)1.5m annual revenue, 10-15k mobthly profit, built from zero, very proud of it.
planetmaker 3 days ago 0 replies      
Working by example may work. And analysing many successful examples may also yield some insight. But make sure to get the full picture: look also at those who fail. They might have tried the very same methods to most degrees. Don't fall for the survivorship bias :) It might be other factors which are truely important than those which seem the obvious ones.
pipio21 3 days ago 1 reply      
Please first define success. You should think about your own values in order to know what is success for you.

I personally know people that made millions from creating software products and companies. But I do know nobody that did(or does it) it alone.

In fact, I "made millions" myself whatever that means starting with software(a million dollars is way less than 10 years ago because of inflation so it is not that much, specially if you life in a expensive place), but I made a hell lot of work and found colleagues along the way.

IMHO you should never focus on money. Money is just a tool for exchanging value. You should focus on creating value, even if at first it gives you little money. Because of innovation dilemma most things that create real value give you very little money first( Do you know how much money the Apple Store did the first year?)

In my opinion your priority should be finding a social circle that will help and understand you. If you have a business that means entrepreneurs. They will understand and support you like no one else. HN is virtual, you need real people around.

For me success is the ability to be free in my life, made my own decisions in my business, I could write on HN, or go climb a mountain when people is working, or travel a new country, or the ability to only invest on business that are ethical for me.

If earning more money means not being free, I will decline the offer, in fact I decline offers every single day. Why should I do it? To become a 80 years old billionaire? To have everybody know me so I have to live isolated against paparazzis or criminals wanting to kidnap my children because they know I am rich?

But your values could be different. Your priorities could be to show off, exert power over other people, of go meet interesting people, or have extreme experiences or send your children to elite schools, whatever is success for you.

wessorh 3 days ago 0 replies      
Domainers: I've known many on person companies that made tons off parking domains. Seems like this model has run its course.

Farming has done well for my wife, she run her business and feeds a bunch of folks. Find her at the Oakland Grandlake on saturday and Marin civic center on Sunday. She sells plants :)

BanzaiTokyo 3 days ago 0 replies      
I suppose there is very little public information about such companies because they have no obligations of sharing it.
tjpnz 3 days ago 1 reply      
This guy uses an AI to write books for Amazon. Note that article is from 2012.


coderholic 3 days ago 2 replies      
https://ipinfo.io - single person business that does over 250 million API requests a day, and generates good revenue.
starikovs 3 days ago 0 replies      
As for me, I develop https://thestartupway.website/ only by myself but I really cannot tell you if it's a successful business. I have a job of a software engineer and when my friends ask me to make a landing page for them I just use my tool and take a small money from them. It's just for fun for me and it's great that it helps somebody with their needs. So, for me, it's a little success )
Mz 2 days ago 0 replies      
There are additional resources listed here:


DaiPlusPlus 3 days ago 1 reply      
I don't think there are any that ever remain a one-person company in practice - even for my own projects I've always needed to outsource or farm-out tasks that aren't a valuable use of my time - e.g. website design or handling customer support. I'm sure there are plenty of de-jure sole-proprietor ships - but I doubt any of them of truly work alone.
lgas 3 days ago 1 reply      
Why discount outsourcing? The book "The E-Myth" argues that you absolutely should outsource everything but your core competency. (And "The 4-hour work week" would argue you should outsource that too)

Does outsourcing somehow diminish success?

cyrusmg 3 days ago 0 replies      
Nomadlist.com from levels.io
magsafe 3 days ago 0 replies      
https://www.bottomlinehq.comSingle founder/employee, 6-digit revenue, no outside funding.
haidrali 3 days ago 1 reply      
Salvatore Sanfilippo: Sole creator and maintainer of Redis

Mike Perham: Sole Developer of SideKiq ( Background tasks processing with Redis) and Inspector (Application infrastructure monitoring, reimagined)

plantain 3 days ago 1 reply      
Plenty of Fish? Exited for billions while still a solo operator
wordpressdev 3 days ago 1 reply      
I made millions from Adsense, not in USD though :)
avemuri 3 days ago 0 replies      
Bitcoin? That is, if Satoshi is a single person
mingabunga 3 days ago 0 replies      
Top affiliate marketers in the health, wealth, personal development and dating niche make $m per year, some in the 10's of $m.
sudhirj 3 days ago 1 reply      
sleeplesss 3 days ago 1 reply      
I sell twitter and Instagram followers for 5 years. I made 15000 usd in average ( before tax).
gumby 3 days ago 0 replies      
Craigslist is pretty close to a single person operation and it's been pretty successful.

I know it's an outlier.

gfiorav 3 days ago 0 replies      
epynonymous 3 days ago 0 replies      
plenty of fish comes to mind, not sure if it's around anymore, but this was a free dating platform
SirLJ 3 days ago 0 replies      
Stock Trading: no customers, no employees and no investors, check my profile for details on how to start. Good luck!
NuclearC 1 day ago 0 replies      
badkangaroo 3 days ago 0 replies      
cbar_tx 3 days ago 0 replies      
please don't. we have enough people monetizing junk on the internet. you're trying to skip the most important step.
HeavyStorm 3 days ago 1 reply      
zackrompin 3 days ago 0 replies      
symbiosis 3 days ago 0 replies      
sunstone 3 days ago 0 replies      
wellboy 3 days ago 0 replies      
kough 3 days ago 0 replies      
Well, they all have the same number of employees.
GrumpyNl 3 days ago 1 reply      
fiatjaf 3 days ago 1 reply      
wand3r 3 days ago 1 reply      
Tinder is a highly successful single person business vs. the Ashley Madison strategy of focusing on couples.
The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure bloomberg.com
424 points by Typhon  1 day ago   539 comments top 53
imgabe 1 day ago 21 replies      
I don't know the answers, but as someone who works in the industry (on the design side). I think a big unmentioned factor is probably liability and the prospect of litigation.

If you look at old blueprints for projects in the past, they are a LOT less detailed. They had to be, because it was physically more difficult to produce them since they had to be drawn by hand. A lot was left to the contractor to figure out in the field.

Now, drawings are more detailed and contractors are incredibly reluctant to make even the smallest decisions on their own. They don't want to assume the liability and risk getting sued if they do something wrong, so they push that off on the engineers and architects.

This means every time there's a question, it has to be submitted through a formal process, tracked, answered, documented. And if the change has any cost impacts, the contractor tacks on a hefty premium because they know they can get away with it (and they probably underbid in the first place to win the job). Delays pile up, every clarification becomes an expensive change order, construction workers twiddle their thumbs while designers get around to addressing questions and this all costs money and time.

michaelt 1 day ago 8 replies      

 That suggests that U.S. costs are high due to general inefficiency [...] Americans have simply ponied up more and more cash over the years while ignoring the fact that they were getting less and less for their money.
There's a general effect in political systems, that if a law takes $20 from 1,000,000 people and gives $100,000 to 200 people, the people who lose money won't have enough incentive to put up a big fight; but the people who receive money will have more than enough motivation.

For example, if a big irrigation project will force taxpayers to subsidise corporate farms, the corporations have a big incentive to spend on ads and campaign contributions. Or if you have to give $60 to a private company for tax filing software, they have a big incentive to lobby and make campaign contributions to keep the tax system complicated.

I'm sure construction projects are subject to the same pro-waste incentives.

I'm not sure what the solution to this is - campaign finance reform, perhaps?

truxus 1 day ago 2 replies      
Am also a design engineer, I specialize in water and wastewater works. My clients are all municipalities, with tight budget and politics are a factor. Engineering productivity has climbed thanks to computers, but construction productivity continues to decline. In my experience on small jobs this has a lot to do with safety and regulations. It takes a team of 2-3 to enter confined spaces (manholes) for momentary inspections or maintenance, it takes extra workers to set up traffic zones to ensure travellers are less of a danger to the workers. Time is taken to ensure archeological, agricultural, and culturally sensitive areas are not disturbed. Minority and women owned businesses are given contractual preference, whether they are most qualified or not. It takes a special (read: expensive) team several weeks to document trivial wetland areas (most people call them roadside ditches), and another person weeks of labor to explain how impacts will be minimized. The government sets standard labor rates for construction labor.

But these are things we as a society have deemed important. Its not acceptable for lives to be lost. It's not acceptable for construction workers to accept low wages. It's not acceptable to recklessly degrade our environmental resources, and it's important to have diversity in this industry.

I don't know if it's true in other countries, but it seems the USA vascilates between priorities depending on the public administration. I am young so my experience is short. Bush saw a real estate bubble, Obama saw an insurance bubble, Trump et al aim for a construction boom. I would add that in New York my home state, a Democrat state, there is a large infrastructure program starting, so it's not just Republicans.

noonespecial 1 day ago 6 replies      
I thought about this when I visited the Hoover Dam.

The audacity of the thing and sheer impossibility of doing anything remotely like it in today's America makes it seem like a relic from an ancient civilization.

It felt like visiting the pyramids in Egypt.

erentz 1 day ago 1 reply      
From my perspective infrastructure is politically driven in the US. Projects are debated for decades, over this time changes are made to placate some groups and buy the support from other groups, and create jobs for some politician, until it baloons into something that is many billions of dollars. Then it is built as a one off mega project. At this point it should be killed but this is seen as the only way to get stuff done.

Things like CAHSR instead of agreeing on a goal and deciding we should have a CA-wide rail system, so then establish a division of Caltrans which we fund to incrementally build/acquire/run a network through ROW acquisition, running DMUs on the routes in the mean time, making it compatible with existing systems, etc. instead becomes one giant $60b acquisition that is master planned for a multi decade time frame to be built almost entirely as a stand alone system the benefits of which can't really be enjoyed until decades in the future.

saosebastiao 1 day ago 1 reply      
I'm pretty sure we're so far invested in being crappy at government that we can't feasibly turn back without inflicting a lot of pain.

Admittedly anecdotal, but after having lived near two major DOE national laboratories (where >40% of my neighbors worked at the lab), I wouldn't be surprised if 60-80% of the workers at these labs could be eliminated under a combination of audit-based reform, regulatory reform, and management changes. Without any change in output or results. I've listened to descriptions of what people do at these labs, and it blows me away how low productivity they are compared to the private sector. I've known people who work entire workweeks that could be consolidated into 3-5 hours of work, and they're willing to admit it. In fact, those that would try to change from within have told me they would feel vulnerable to retaliation if they went through with it.

And that's before we get into the shitshow that is federal contract work. We've turned federal contract work into a goldmine for whoever has enough lawyers to win a bid. And we don't even know how many people are employed doing that contract work [0]!

At this point, meaningful reform means taking 10's of millions of people and forcing productivity on them to the point where most of them are unnecessary. We could probably double the unemployment rate with the right reforms. That's why it won't happen.

[0] http://www.govexec.com/contracting/2015/03/even-cbo-stumped-...

beat 1 day ago 2 replies      
This reflects in health care as well. American health care costs about twice as much as it does in every other first-world nation. Those systems run the gamut from fully socialist to mostly privatized, but they all share a common feature - they provide universal coverage at half the cost of the American system. That says there's something uniquely broken in our model.

Infrastructure? Same thing. There's something distinctly American in how slow and expensive it is. These are systemic issues, not some single-cause thing that [liberals|conservatives] can finger-point to a partisan villain.

tannerc 1 day ago 3 replies      
Related to what we might label "modern" infrastructure, I just got back from a trip visiting the outskirts of Illinois.

The towns there are small, but full of people hungry for opportunities and good work.

Yet everywhere you go there is no work to be done. Businesseseven big box stores like Walmart or Targetare closed down. Homes lay vacant despite their reasonably cheap (at least for someone living in Silicon Valley) $20,000 price tag. Even churches in the area have to close their doors but leave their steeples standing, unable to draw in an audience orand most importantlyany money to maintain things.

This isn't Detroit I'm talking about, it's a fairly typical suburb of a larger metropolitan area in the midwest.

The answer for many of these people has largely and loudly been: "Bring back jobs from overseas! Stop outsourcing work to China!"

But of course that's not a valid answer, since the problem is that the jobs these towns once knew now belong to machines which can work tens of times harder and longer at a fraction of the cost of their former human counterparts. Yes, some of the work has gone overseas, but much of it has just become "modernized" by technology.

And here's the thing: the infrastructure for things as simple as Internet access in these parts of the US just isn't there.

So nobody goes to school to learn programming or design or how to be a modern entrepreneur because they (the individuals and schools) just don't have any connection to those parts of the landscape. And when they do, their model is wildly out of date.

One of the Universities I visited and, later, a high school had each just opened a computer lab for students in which the goal wasn't to help students learn programming, or design, or anything like that, but merely how to type.

This of course added on top of the decrepit roads, buildings, etc. The state is wildly out of money because it can't put people to work, and the people can't work because the infrastructure just isn't there. It's depressing to see, really. I want to know how we can improve this, and what someone living on the other side of the country might do to help.

bkjelden 1 day ago 7 replies      
I have been wondering lately if we have become so dependent on certain sectors of the US economy (housing, infrastructure, healthcare, education) that risk aversion is suffocating innovation.

No one wants to send their kid to an unproven, experimental university. No city wants to beta test a new style of road building. No patient wants to be the first to try a new treatment. We are so dependent on these things that the cost of failure is astronomical. Because no one is willing to try new methods of doing things, costs never go down. There are marginal improvements, for sure, but no disruptive changes.

It feels like a weird manifestation of NIMBYism. We all want innovation, but we want to test it on someone else first.

stupidcar 1 day ago 2 replies      
Vague talk of inefficiency in construction isn't really very informative. Has anyone ever done a study where they take two very similar projects building a medium sized office building, for example in the US and China, and following them both from beginning to end, auditing exactly how much money and time is spent on each stage? It seems like this would provide a useful basis for comparison.
bogomipz 1 day ago 4 replies      
I don't know if "forgotten" as used in the title is the correct word so much as just "out of practice." Look at this list of infrastructure projects in China in the last decade or so:


It's hard not to be impressed by that list. And China is undertaking these scale projects abroad as well from Latin America to Africa.

It's should be no surprise that you get really good at something the more you do it. What was the last project that the US Federal Government undertook on a similar scale as one of these? "The Big Dig[1]"? Notable for being the most expensive highway project in US history and yet served only Boston?

The US seems to spend interminable months squabbling over whether or not its un-American to use imported steel to replace parts of its crumbling infrastructure(see Bay Bridge, Tapan Zee projects etc.) while the Chinese seem to spend that time actually executing the project.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig

vmarsy 1 day ago 3 replies      
> Yet Frances trains cost much less.

Decades of expertise might be a reason here, France has the longest amount of (high speed rail miles / country area), and the non high-speed network is also huge. It's also possible that the monopoly of having only one, state-owned, railroad company (SNCF) let that company negotiate/choose better prices much more aggressively than if there was many companies. I don't think it was stupid at the time to have such a state-owned monopoly for building this key infrastructure.

Also I'd think that with that big of a network, some things start to become less costly because of economies of scale. Last April SNCF bought 30 trains to Alstom for 250m, with the current US infrastructure I doubt the US needs that many trains. If one day like France they have 450 high speed trains, maybe it'll cost them less to have more built.

Japan and France are dense countries, the area of France is roughly equal to the area of Texas, it's hard to imagine 450 high speed trains there, where they're struggling to even get one high speed rail line between Houston and Dallas.

bischofs 1 day ago 1 reply      
I recently ran into the MDOT project manager for a rebuild/expansion of a section of I-75. With some googling I found that she was working on the project since 2001 - construction started in 2016 and is not scheduled to be completed until 2030.

So she will be working on the project for 30 years; her entire career... something is pretty broken about the government structures around these projects.

Apreche 1 day ago 7 replies      
It costs extra because CORRUPTION. They're skimming off the top at every level, and that's why they can't let anyone investigate.
hx87 1 day ago 0 replies      
I suspect that part of the problem is that expertise doesn't reside in monolithic corporations and governments anymore, but in specialist consultant companies that have relatively high fixed costs and thus must charge more to make a profit. In addition I suspect that there are a lot of lookalike consultant companies that charge a lot of money in exchange for kickbacks but don't provide any value.
chadgeidel 1 day ago 2 replies      
My brother and father (concrete construction) would probably lay the blame on onerous regulation. They regularly complain about nit-picky engineers with their insistence on (in their words) unreasonable slavish devotion to engineering specifications. I'm not on the jobsite so I don't actually know.

I wonder is our construction regulations are much more stringent than other western nations?

tmh79 1 day ago 2 replies      
It seems to me like the biggest things that have changed are the safety regulations on the construction process itself and the finished product. The golden gate bridge was built in a few years, but with a few worker deaths. Building a new bridge like the golden gate today would likely be illegal, and take ~25 years.
myrandomcomment 1 day ago 0 replies      
So I worked for the family construction firm for a few years. The amount of ass covering, paperwork and complexity to what should be a simple thing was amazing. The amount of litigation involved when anything was not as expected was amazing vs. just trying to sort it between the those involved. My father build a $M business on just doing change orders & claims. There is your problem.
DisposableMike 1 day ago 0 replies      
We haven't "forgotten" how to do anything. We just let ourselves (collectively) become OK with projects that extraordinarily long, slow, and expensive, and the contractors aren't going to be the ones to force positive change in the system.
hkarthik 1 day ago 2 replies      
The fastest that I've seen infrastructure put up in the US is where there are toll roads being built.

I suspect this is because there is a high incentivize to get a toll road up quickly and start generating revenue to pay back the initial investment.

Residents generally hate tolls, but its a good motivator for infrastructure to go up quickly.

I never understood why similar incentives wouldn't kick in for mass transit projects.

TetOn 1 day ago 1 reply      
This article from 2011 (http://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/marchapril-2011/more-b...) makes a compelling case that, after decades of cutting government jobs and creeping privatization, we simply don't have enough bureaucrats to organize and run large, complex projects anymore. These other countries having success with infra projects still do. Thus the issue.
rjohnk 1 day ago 0 replies      
After the collapse of the 35W bridge, the new bridge the took its place was built ahead of schedule and on budget. As with many things in history, disaster seems to hone our ability to overcome obstacles and get things done.


mnm1 1 day ago 0 replies      
Is inefficiency inefficiency when it's done on purpose? That's what the article misses. The salaries of workers might not be higher than in other countries, but I bet what we pay contractors vs. what they produce is beyond astronomical. It certainly is when government contracts out software. With modern computing, I don't see why we don't keep track of costs down to the penny. A new hammer is bought to continue construction? The receipt is scanned and everything is tracked. You don't scan it, you don't get reimbursed. All actual costs are known and the profit margin can be calculated from there. It might not help that much until more data is collected and future projects can be estimated better using that data, but it sure as hell beats the current model of guessing the lowest estimate to get the contract, getting the contract, and then spending 10-1000x the estimate.
barretts 1 day ago 0 replies      
One important factor unmentioned so far: Federalism. The US has very strong state and municipal governments compared to France and Japan. In many cases, any one of the three can veto a project. A new commuter rail line under the Hudson River connecting NYC and NJ was begun in 2009 and NJ Gov Chris Christie killed it in 2010 (citing cost overruns), after $600m had already been spent.
OliverJones 1 day ago 0 replies      
I hate to be snarky, but there's another factor: laziness.

When there's a replacement bridge under construction around here, business at the local dunkin donuts goes up ALL DAY, not just at lunch and shift change. Everybody's there: laborers, supervisors, delivery drivers, managers, engineers, owners' reps from the state DOT and the towns involved.

And, in Massachusetts we have a peculiar extra cost: The police force has a monopoly on doing the traffic safety work that flag people do everywhere else. They have the right to arrest people who work in or near roads if they start working without a paid police detail on the site, or keep working after the police detail leaves. Slows work down; gives people a reason to wait around after arriving on the job.

hawaiianed 1 day ago 0 replies      
There is some poor analysis in the article with regards to Davis Bacon Act, they approached it and then missed what it was telling them.

Here in Hawaii, Laborer Prevailing Wage is $50+ an hour, toss on our mandatory insurances worker's comp and taxes and it costs almost $80 an hour to pay that worker before profit and other overhead.

Laborer rates vary by locality, but no construction worker who gets more than 3-months of Davis Bacon pay is averaging $35,000 a year it's going to be closer to $50,000.

Whenever we do any State, or Federal work there is a huge stack of submissions that have to be made, I kill trees like it was my job, shoveling paperwork out the door for these projects.

esfandia 1 day ago 0 replies      
I wouldn't be surprised if infrastructure costs and delays were going up everywhere though, including France. Would be nice to have actual data.

I think it comes down to new non-functional requirements: safety, environmental concerns, accessibility, liability protection, etc. With these requirements, Paris or London or New York would have never had a subway system in the late 1800's or early 1900's. By now though, all these systems have been maintained and modified to comply to the new non-functional requirements over time.

So if you added the accumulated cost of running a subway system today, while adding all the maintenance costs over time, it might be the case that the cost of building the same thing from scratch would be cheaper, but unfortunately without the benefit of having passengers enjoy it (and pay for it) for over 100 years (thus partially subsidizing the maintenance costs).

So you could even consider something as rigid as a subway system built in an "agile" way, with a quick and literally dirty MVP out of the way early, and additional non-functional requirements added over the course of decades. It's just that those requirements weren't known or wanted initially.

Now would it be ok to do the same now? Have a subway system in a city that needs it, but without bathrooms in stations, with no pollution requirements initially, not accessible to the disabled, (name your other requirements not necessary for a MVP), but with the benefit that at least it exists now, it can be subsidized by passengers that are willing to use it, so that over time those other requirements are met. Better have them later than never.

defined 1 day ago 0 replies      
> There is reason to suspect that high U.S. costs are part of a deeper problem.

Maybe this is mere cynicism, but if the workers and materials don't cost that much more than in France, my immediate reaction is "excessive profiteering", or, to put it another way, "because we can, and nobody is stopping us".

The same applies to our unreasonably high education costs, and healthcare (although that's much more complex an issue, but at its root, it is too many fingers in the pie).

babesh 1 day ago 0 replies      
It's a symptom of captured large government in the US.

The smaller 25k person town I live in doesn't nearly have the same issues. We've managed to put up new school buildings the last couple of years with not too much fuss and on budget. On the other hand, the town is relatively well off and there is seemingly good community participation.

macspoofing 1 day ago 0 replies      
This article was frustrating to read because it is clear the author did not do one iota of research. He identified a problem with American construction sector being inefficient or not-cost effective and did nothing to even attempt to answer why - yet still managed to stretch that one thought into a 1000 word essay.
exmicrosoldier 1 day ago 0 replies      
Too many value extracting rentier owners and valueless executives skimming off the top of projects done for the common good.
tomohawk 1 day ago 0 replies      
In my state, a contractor was paid to build a major highway using concrete pavement. If done properly, such a road should last 40 years or more, and without the thumpity, thumpity sound you get when the concrete is not put down properly.

The contractor was not experienced and totally muffed the job.

Rather than penalizing the contractor, they paid the contracter to build the road again, plopping asphalt on top of the concrete after grinding the concrete and redoing the joints that they screwed up. The asphalt hasn't lasted that long, so it will need to be redone again soon.

So, the contractor was inept, but so was the government overseer.

chromaton 1 day ago 1 reply      
I-85 in Atlanta was repaired in just over 6 weeks. So things can get done quickly if the incentives are right.
edraferi 1 day ago 0 replies      
> U.S. costs are high due to general inefficiency -- inefficient project management, an inefficient government contracting process, and inefficient regulation. It suggests that construction, like health care or asset management or education, is an area where Americans have simply ponied up more and more cash over the years while ignoring the fact that they were getting less and less for their money. To fix the problems choking U.S. construction, reformers are going to have to go through the system and rip out the inefficiencies root and branch.

That's a tall order. It'd be nice to see the article suggest a way to accomplish that.

esmi 1 day ago 1 reply      
By U.S. I think they mean the Federal Government. It's possible to build very large projects, presumably to code and under proper safety standards, in America if one desires. Here are two examples which come immediately to my mind. I'm sure they are many more examples.


I think the Federal Government looks at infrastructure as jobs programs and this is why they are drawn out. The job is the end not the thing they're actually building.

rrggrr 1 day ago 1 reply      
Durability. Its one thing to quickly and cheaply add infrastructure, and I've traveled the world to places where this is accomplished at a dizzying pace. Its another thing altogether to engineer and build projects that can endure over time and in the face of natural and unnatural disaster.

Yes, the US is overdue for infrastructure investment. Yes, its costly and unproductive Federal and State entitlement obligations compete for these dollars. But the expense of building infrastructure in the US is justified by the longevity of its engineering and build quality. This is not the case globally.

kazinator 1 day ago 2 replies      
Why all the guesswork about why it costs so much?

That sort of thing should be readily explained by accounting: follow the money.

Public infrastructure should be financially transparent.

anubisresources 1 day ago 0 replies      
I posted this here the other day, I'm not a civil engineer so I'm sure there are things I'm missing but the idea seems to have some merit: https://www.jefftk.com/p/replace-infrastructure-wholesale

It doesn't address any of the numerous political issues with American infrastructure, but it could be good for repair and maintenance

supernumerary 1 day ago 0 replies      
In Detroit, lawmakers recently passed legislation making it hard to sue the city for crumbling sidewalks.


mrjaeger 1 day ago 0 replies      
Is there any way to do a bottoms up analysis of infrastructure projects like this and see where the differences come from? I imagine the costs on projects like these are pretty finely broken down, although I'm not sure how one would go about actually getting the numbers to analyze.
Mz 1 day ago 0 replies      
They are comparing it to health care, which suffers from a serious excess of bureaucracy. So I will suggest that too much bureaucratic red tape is likely a factor.
mcrad 1 day ago 0 replies      
As the value of a law degree has ran way ahead of more hands-on professions, this is the result. Constitutional amendment: JD's banned from public office
cletus 1 day ago 2 replies      
The US hasn't forgotten. Nor is this unique to the US. It seems to be a widespread issue in the developed world.

The problem is that labour is simply too expensive now. And, to a lesser, extent, so is real estate.

In the 2000s Australia experienced an unprecedented resources boom fuelled by China's growth. This especially impacted Western Australia and Queensland. WA in particular is rich in iron ore, oil and gas and other resources.

In Perth in 2000 you could buy a 70s 3 bedroom house within a few miles of the city center for <A$100k. By 2005 it was $350k. Capital projects for the resources industries were in the works amounting to over A$100B. All of these have a huge construction component that soaked up the construction supply.

In the 90s you could build a house in as as little as 3 months. From the early to mid 2000s that time frame is now closer to a year and costs 5 times as much.

So homes became much more expensive. Of course building commercial and industrial property also got more expensive. Property costs are a significant input cost into any business that operates there. Increased residential costs soak up disposable income and lead to wages growth. Increased wage costs makes things more expensive and the cycle continues.

So Perth transformed in the 1990s from a city that was very affordable with a good standard of living to one of the haves and have nots. The haves are those in the construction and resources industries. They were making crazy money. Everyone else was pretty much a loser.

Arguably this is dutch disease [1].

So now the city wants to do things like build train lines. Well labour is stupidly expensive because the cost of living is so high and buying up real estate to put said train line on is also super expensive.

A lot of people don't seem to feel this because they're incumbents (ie they bought their houses 15+ years ago). Others have immigrated so have foreign money bypassing the local economy.

So look at the Second Avenue Subway as one example. $17B for a few miles of tunnels? Really? Well that's the cost of labour in the US and real estate in Manhattan. Since it's underground I don't imagine a large percentage of the total cost is real estate either.

So it seems like when a lot of this infrastructure was built, the relative cost of labour was much lower. The standard of living was also much lower, apart from the 1950s and 1960s, which can be viewed as a transitional anomaly more than a normal equilibrium.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease

cmurf 1 day ago 0 replies      
That's because income taxes on the wealthy are way too low, which incentivizes stuffing income into real estate, stocks, and bonds.

Earn a million dollars worth of either earned or unearned income, and you pay either (simplistically) 39.6% on earned and 23.6% on unearned income. That's too f'n goddamn cheap. It encourages peopel to pay that tax and put it into one of the above, rather than take the risk by starting or growing a business and taking a tax deduction for business expenses.

When the silent generation was in charge of things, income tax was never less than 75% for the top tax bracket, for over 40 years. And during that time there was massive private and public infrastructure being built, and we didn't have a $20 trillion national debt.

rhino369 1 day ago 1 reply      
Do these construction costs inefficiencies also appear in construction projects that are privately funded? Or is it just publicly funded projects?
primeblue 1 day ago 0 replies      
Too much compliance and suing by lawyers/everyone.
howard941 1 day ago 1 reply      
Is excessive profit taking eating up the productivity?
aaronarduino 1 day ago 1 reply      
It's not that we have forgotten. It's the fact that regulation, time to get approval, and other red tape make the timeline longer. Gone are the days when things just get done.
JustSomeNobody 1 day ago 0 replies      
Because the developers have learned how to play politics for more money?
jk2323 1 day ago 2 replies      
An African government official visits Europe. There, a European government official invites him to his luxury home. The African is shocked.

He asks "How can you afford such a house if you a just a government official?"

The European says: "Look out of the window. can you see the bridge?"

The African: "Yes"

The European: "See, the government paid for two train tracks but the bridge has only one."

The African says: "I understand".

2 years later the European official visits the African in Africa. He invites him into his house and his house is a luxury palace.

Now the European is shocked. He asks "How can you afford such a palace? Recently you were so impressed with house and now you live in a palace?"

The African says: "Look out of the window. can you see the bridge our taxpayers paid for?"

The European: "No."

Kenji 1 day ago 2 replies      
The solution is shrinking the state to the bare minimum and making as many transactions as possible voluntary.
masterleep 1 day ago 8 replies      
Paul Allen's new rocket-launching plane arstechnica.com
344 points by MBCook  1 day ago   157 comments top 27
mLuby 1 day ago 5 replies      
IANARS but this plane should give the remaining stage(s) four advantages:

1. +230m/s orbital velocity [1]

2. +9km launch altitude [1]

3. can launch in more weather conditions

4. 1st stage can abort mid-launch without loss of payload.

Of these, the most important is the increase in launch altitude, because that means stage 2 launches in air of greatly decreased density, leading to the following efficiencies:

A. a vacuum-optimized nozzle can be used, increasing engine performance

B. less aerodynamic/drag energy losses

C. max Q should be lower, allowing full throttle usage, reducing mass needed for structural elements, and reducing vibration stresses on payload

[1] http://dailym.ai/2soH6FD

P.S. Thank you KSP for teaching me this stuff! :D

Bonus: video of pegasus air launched rocket: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz_5hnIw2jc

Animats 1 day ago 2 replies      
Scaled Composites built it. It should work. Although Rutan has retired, the company goes on. It's interesting that they didn't connect the tails, like the old Lockheed P-38, but there's probably some good reason for that.

Launching a Pegasus XL has to be just a demo. That's normally launched by dropping it from an old Lockheed L-1011; it doesn't need this monster. They need something bigger to launch. There was a contract with Pegasus for a "Pegasus II", but that didn't work out. The "Dream Chaser" mini-shuttle is a possibility, if that ever gets built.

The 747 engines are probably used. There are lots of retired 747s around, many at the Mojave boneyard. Great aircraft, but a fuel hog by current standards.

OperationHealth 15 hours ago 1 reply      
This is being blown out of proportion. Vulcan's Stratolauncher is not the future of launch; if this thing ever manages to leave the ground (with a payload), I doubt it will host more than five-to-seven launches throughout its lifetime, and that's a generous estimate.

This vehicle is going to be incredibly expensive, compared to both other air launch options and dedicated smallsat options. Although this can change, the current plan is for Stratolaunch to use OATK's Pegasus-XL payload, which provides an indicator for cost. Pegasus-XL launches are incredibly expensive ($337.3K per kg). Now, this is due to a variety of reasons (the L-1011's incredibly high maintenance costs, OATK's expensive labor structure, low launch cadence). Vulcan will bear similar costs--the inefficient OATK overhead tied to Pegasus-XL, Stratolauncher is a one-of-a-kind aircraft and increasing maintenance costs (despite using 747 engines). Due to significant development delays, the company has yet to develop or execute a customer strategy. Depending on how much more PA pumps into it, the company will not be price competitive in the market.

For comparison, other small launchers charge ~$25K/kg-$41K/kg (e.g., Rocket Lab, Virgin, Arianespace), and most of these will be able to launch US payloads. Virgin's comparable airlauncher delivers slightly less mass (15 kg less), but is priced at ~$40K/kg. Virgin is already a leg up as it has engaged commercial, civil govt., and mil-govt. customers.

Lastly, it's worth noting that this vehicle still has significant work to be done--look at the wings in the picture.

SkyMarshal 1 day ago 1 reply      
This is awesome but a little bit scary. Interesting that they didn't physically connect the tail wings at all, I wonder what stresses and torques the main wing will endure under maneuvering or turbulence. I assume all the control surfaces are computer controlled to synchronize and minimize that, but from the perspective of an ignorant observer, looks a little fragile.
vadym909 23 hours ago 1 reply      
Any more billionaires feeling left out of the space race?
curtis 1 day ago 2 replies      
It seems like air launch doesn't buy you a whole lot, but it turns out that a small win on delta-v can result in a fairly big win on payload. This might seem counter-intuitive, but you have to remember that in orbital class rockets, payload is only 5% or so of total mass at take-off.
Tomminn 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is a very good idea. In rocketry, air is your enemy. At the speeds rockets move it causes enormous heat/mechanical stress on the rocket, drag energy losses, and it messes with the flow of matter out the back of the engine that provides your thrust.

With a jet engine, air is your friend, because it is the matter you spit out the back of the engine. And at the much smaller speeds of an airplane, mechanical and thermal stresses are much smaller.

simonh 1 day ago 1 reply      
Since the Orbital ATK Pegasus already exists and already has a customised plane it launches from, can we assume launching Pegasus is just phase 1 for this plane? If that's all it's going to do there would be no point. So presumably this has capabilities the current Pegasus launch plane doesn't have, and eventually we'll see it launching something like a Pegasus XL Plus? Do we have any indication how big a rocket this thing can carry?

Also, I wonder how this compares in capability to the XS-1 currently under development, which will be a vertically launched first stage rocket that can fly back for a runway landing.

Edit: just found the link below from last year on Space.com.


jeffdavis 1 day ago 8 replies      
Dumb question: why don't they launch rockets from the tops of mountains?
ndr 1 day ago 2 replies      
The article doesn't mention SpaceX, I wonder what's the difference in energy and cost for launching (and landing) the relative stage 1s. Does anyone have an idea on that?
rmason 1 day ago 0 replies      
Paul Allen isn't alone in this endeavour. The field is actually getting quite crowded:


innergame 1 day ago 4 replies      
I feel overcome by the Dianne Kruger effect, to an extent I don't remember feeling any time recently. I'm becoming more and more interested in news about rocketry (due to SpaceX of course) but I'm still a full on space-pleb. I see something like this and my intuition screams "Woah! Of course! Why don't other rocket companies do this? What's wrong with them?!"

But the rational part of my brain kicks in and slaps me down for being so arrogant. It feels humbling to be reminded how stupid one can be.

jacquesm 1 day ago 1 reply      
I'd really hate to see that thing land in a crosswind, I don't think I could watch it.
gambiting 20 hours ago 3 replies      
385-foot wingspan

1.3 million pounds

65 feet

2,000 nautical mile

I'm sorry, I know it has been mentioned a billion times already, but can someone make a browser plugin that converts everything on a website to normal SI units? As a non-american I have no idea how big this aircaft is or how much it can lift - sure I can look up conversions(I have) but it would be awesome if there was an automatic website conversion option.

sigrlami9 16 hours ago 0 replies      
The general idea like USSR's An-225 Buran tandem within MAKS program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAKS_(spacecraft) and it's 25 years old.
bogomipz 1 day ago 1 reply      
Does anyone have any insight into how the dual flight decks are utilized?
tomkat0789 1 day ago 0 replies      
Has anybody tried launching a rocket from an airship/dirigible?
sargun 23 hours ago 2 replies      
This might be a dumb question, but it looks like there are two cockpits on this plane. I imagine the plane is drive by wire, so it doesn't matter where you are on the plane. Why do they have two?

Extending my question further, why does this plane have a cockpit at all? Isn't this something you could remotely pilot, especially to mitigate the potential risk of being at 30k feet with thousands of kilos of RP-1 or similar?

jlebrech 14 hours ago 0 replies      
Why not the other way round?

Have a plane take off with a small load and have rockets connect with it at it's highest altitude and push it into orbit.

expended stages could reconnect with another plane of the same model on the way down.

kadavero 14 hours ago 0 replies      
I wonder if they considered a half-loop launch, toss bombing style. That way they could dump the wing, perhaps at a price of higher strength requirements.
ufmace 1 day ago 3 replies      
The really interesting question - does the modest increase in initial velocity and altitude with a boost out of the lower atmosphere make it practical to build a Single Stage To Orbit rocket? If they can, then it's an impressive achievement. If not, then it doesn't really seem worth the trouble.
nether 1 day ago 0 replies      
Really interesting thing is the flat walls on the fuselages. They were done that way for ease of construction, and are not pressurized containers therefore don't suffer from stress singularities at the corners.
daveslash 1 day ago 6 replies      
The article claims that it hold's the record for largest wingspan, which is 385ft. It then goes on to say that this blows away the previous record of 65ft. I don't know what the largest wingspan is, but I thought B-52s had a wingspan of 185ft? Error in the article?
Analemma_ 1 day ago 5 replies      
I'm confused as to what this thing can accomplish. It can probably fly very high, but I assume it can't fly very fast (relative to orbital speed), and I thought the overwhelming majority of the delta-V to get something into orbit was for forward momentum and that just launching from higher up wouldn't help much.

Clearly there's something I'm missing here (or they wouldn't have built it), can anyone fill me in?

InclinedPlane 20 hours ago 0 replies      
This is pretty cool but to be honest I don't expect it to be very advantageous.

The big advantage of airlaunch is the Isp improvement from launching at altitude. Since the rocket equation is exponential with respect to the ratio of delta V and Isp improving Isp even a little has big effects, and reducing delta V even a little does too.

But the big advantage of ordinary vertical launch rockets is that it's fairly straightforward to just make them bigger. The Saturn V was able to launch Skylab with a 6.6 meter diameter. And rockets could easily be scaled up to launch even larger diameter payloads. That's pretty difficult with something like Stratolaunch. Even with basically the largest aircraft ever made it still has a pretty small payload mass and fairing size.

One other cool thing about stratolaunch is that it has the ability to launch out of a lot more locations since it doesn't depend on a launch pad and tower. However, I suspect that's not going to be of huge importance.

I'd like to see what they can do with this technology but I suspect it'll be underwhelming.

synicalx 23 hours ago 1 reply      
I can just imagine him up there in the plane, listening to Huey Lewis and the News.
wakeupworld 14 hours ago 0 replies      
Nice to read how people are so out of touch when they reach to certain threshold.. lol where mark suckerberg rackets ?
Wikipedias Switch to HTTPS Has Successfully Fought Government Censorship vice.com
396 points by rbanffy  3 days ago   119 comments top 11
shpx 3 days ago 4 replies      
It won't last, at least for China. Their government is working on a clone of wiki, scheduled for 2018[0]. Once that's done they'll likely completely ban the original.

Wikipedia publishes database dumps every couple of days[1]. So it shouldn't be that expensive for smaller governments to create and host their own censored mirror. You'd maintain a list of banned and censored articles, then pull from wikipedia once a month. You'd have to check new articles by hand (maybe even all edits), but a lot of that should be easily automated, and if you only care about wikipedia in your native tongue (and it's not english) that's much less work.

The academics will bypass censorship anyway, since it's so easy[2], so an autocrat won't worry about intellectually crippling their country by banning wikipedia. Maybe they don't do this because the list of banned articles would be trivial to get.

Better machine translation might solve this by helping information flow freely[3]. We have until 2018 I guess.

[0] https://news.vice.com/story/china-is-recruiting-20000-people...

[1] https://dumps.wikimedia.org/backup-index.html

[2] https://www.wired.co.uk/article/china-great-firewall-censors...

[3] https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/12/17/anti-wikipedi...

awinter-py 3 days ago 3 replies      
Can an expert comment on side-channel attacks on HTTPS and whether they're less viable on HTTP/2?

My assumption is that because wikipedia has a known plaintext and a known link graph it's plausible to identify pages with some accuracy and either block them or monitor who's reading what.

I also assume that the traffic profile of editing looks different from viewing.

petre 2 days ago 0 replies      
There was an IPFS clone of wikipedia after Turkey blocked it.


darkhorn 2 days ago 1 reply      
There were few censored pages on the Turkish Wikipedia when it was on HTTP. They were the "vagina" article and election prediction article. Only those pages were censored.

Last month there were some articles on the English Wikipedia about ISIS-Erdoan (I don't care true or not). Then they have blocked all Wikipedia (all languages). Because they were unable to block those individual pages.

rocky1138 3 days ago 5 replies      
How do governments censor only parts of Wikipedia when the site is encrypted? How do they know which pages you are browsing if they can't see the URL?
gwern 3 days ago 0 replies      
After reading through the whole paper, I would have to say that there is far less censorship of WP, HTTPS or HTTP, than I guessed.
enzolovesbacon 3 days ago 2 replies      

 Critics of this plan argued that this move would just result in more total censorship of Wikipedia and that access to some information was better than no information at all
I'm no critic of this plan but I still don't understand why this wouldn't result in more total censorship. Someone explain please?

shusson 3 days ago 2 replies      
TIL: HTTPS encrypts the URL.
SpacePotatoe 3 days ago 2 replies      
I just wonder what UK government has against German metal bands
vbezhenar 3 days ago 3 replies      
Currently HTTPS sends domain in clear-text before establishing a connection. It allows to host (and block) website by domain, not by IP. May be HTTPS should have optional extension to send URI in clear-text before establishing a connection. This way, if censors decide to block Wikipedia, users can opt-in into this behaviour and have unblocked Wikipedia except few selected articles.
libeclipse 3 days ago 1 reply      
> a positive effect

Any numbers/figures?

Uber Posts $708M Loss as Finance Head Leaves wsj.com
311 points by praneshp  1 day ago   227 comments top 23
bpodgursky 1 day ago 10 replies      
$708 million loss, narrowed from $991 million last quarter

18% growth from last quarter (note: that's not Y/Y. this is ridiculously fast, given the huge base.)

708mm loss / 3.4 billion in revenue is only about 20% under even. And what most people miss, is that the 3.4 billion is the 30% cut Uber takes from a ride. Prices don't have to rise 20% to break even, prices have to rise 6% (assuming no efficiency improvements via pool etc, which is frankly ridiculous)

Yeah... Uber is doing fine.

habosa 1 day ago 0 replies      
A couple things to note:

1. This is new loss excluding 'employee stock compensation and other items'. Anecdotally I've heard that Uber offers, particularly for advanced technical positions, are extremely stock heavy. This could be a big exclusion. It's also a bit of a double standard since so much was made of Snap's recent losses which were largely stock based compensation driven.

2. Past discussions on HN have noted that Uber counts the full Pool fare as revenue but this is not the case for Uber X or Uber Black. So if Pool is a rising share of rides (I've heard it is) then Uber will show strong revenue growth without a proportional growth in net income.

And a question:How long will Uber's investors tolerate the current situation? The company is losing money at a record setting pace, has a new scandal every day, and has seemingly no plans for a liquidity event. Even though the on-paper growth is fantastic people must want to get their money out. If this was a public company there would be a huge sell off.

bo1024 1 day ago 1 reply      
If I understood the Reuters article correctly, Uber made $3.4 billion and therefore lost $4.1 billion in the first quarter of 2017.

Can someone help me understand what Uber spends $4.1 billion dollars on in 3 months? Is it because they're subsidizing rides by that much on average? (i.e. paying drivers more than riders pay)

abhv 1 day ago 2 replies      
They haven't broken out the losses.

(a) Are they profitable in the US? That would be a huge milestone.

(b) If not entire US, are they profitable in top-X US urban markets, and thus losses are all due to expansion into 2nd/3rd quartile of cities?

(c) Maybe some metrics like "After subtracting R&D efforts in self-driving cars, and legal fees due to multiple lawsuits, we are on average making X cents for every mile/minute driven."

"Our drivers take X days to enroll, and then work for us Y hours per week, and the turnover rate is Z."

conjecTech 1 day ago 0 replies      
Last quarter people drew attention to the different accounting methods used for pool versus other uber services, with pool booking the entire price of the ride as revenue rather than just uber's take. Does anyone have a sense of how much of the increase in revenue is due to increased ridership versus a shift in demand towards pool? Do flat fares use the same methodology?
randomdrake 1 day ago 3 replies      
Great example of how the headlines can drive a story more than the story itself.

While Uber may have posted $708 million of losses, it is also up 18% in revenue from last quarter. That's 3.4 billion dollars in the first quarter of 2017.

Uber is making approximately $1,500,000 per hour.

I dislike Uber as much as the next person for ethical reasons, but a company that can achieve millions of dollars in revenue per day, in 7 years, is quite extraordinary.

nullnilvoid 1 day ago 3 replies      
Revenue: $3.4BLoss: $708MGrowth: 18% Quarter over quarterCash to burn: $7.2B

With the current burn rate, Uber can burn another 10 quarters.

patrickbolle 18 hours ago 0 replies      
Uber is great, but I've relocated to Bali and the competitors here are doing such a fantastic job at giving me reasons not to use Uber.

Go-jek is cheaper, you can pay with cash, and they offer like 15 other services like... go-food, go-massage, go-cleaning, etc.

It's incredible.

code4tee 17 hours ago 0 replies      
They do not have a sustainable business. They're clearly pumping up revenue with subsidies (which is why they lose so much money). I do use Uber occasionally but when I do there's so many offers and deals that I never pay anything close to a break-even price. If you sell dollar bills for 85 cents it's easy to have lots of revenue.
ProfessorLayton 1 day ago 2 replies      
I wonder how they'll be able to raise more cash with all this turmoil within the company. Even a 15B [1] cash hoard can't last much longer at this burn rate.


noway421 1 day ago 0 replies      
They are surely gonna run out of top c-level execs faster than out of cash.
nocoder 1 day ago 1 reply      
I like how the WSJ headline tries to imply casualty between loss and leaving of finance head. Why cannot these guys simply share the news instead of trying to imply the cause.
kcorbitt 1 day ago 1 reply      
Has anybody published an estimate of what Uber's cash reserves might look like, or how long they can remain solvent at these insane burn levels? Losses of $3B/year seem like they would put almost anybody out of business.
dingo_bat 1 day ago 5 replies      
I know most people hate on uber, but it has impacted my life a lot. I think the model they've demonstrated is a legit model, and the ruthlessness with which they pursue it should not take anything away from the company's value. In fact, it should add. I want companies to show a giant middle finger to monopolistic city laws that harm citizens.
SomeStupidPoint 1 day ago 1 reply      
So Uber made 612M more in revenue and lost 283M less money, in 17Q1 than 16Q4.

Naively, that seems like a good sign (for Uber), but it could also just be that they stopped growth spending or are hiding losses in unreported figures.

Does anyone have more insight in to what could have caused it?

bitmapbrother 1 day ago 1 reply      
You could say they lost an Otto.
korzun 1 day ago 1 reply      
> Yes and no, they are in a space which is extremely price competitive. I literally am watching Uber take a dramatic hit in my area right now.

You are 'literally' watching Uber take a 'dramatic' hit. Okay.

Extremely price competitive market, yet you only mention Lyft.

> Lyft came to town and probably 80% of the drivers solely use them now, driving up the Uber prices.

Where did you get your numbers from? Just making stuff up as you go?

> Now, I only use Lyft - as do most of the people.

I only use Uber - as do most of the people. See how this generic mud-slinging like commentary works?

> Plus, most of the Uber drivers are shady here

Making blanket statements with words like 'shady' and 'here' is cheap.

You did not mention a single, verifiable fact. I can apply this kind of narrative to pretty much anything.

> I honestly still don't see them making it out of their situation.

Wrap it up with a cliche 'honesty...'. I do not understand comments like this; how much is Lyft paying you?

untilHellbanned 1 day ago 1 reply      
"Revenue up 18% Loss down 1/3rd 22x+ the revenue of $snap

So much important work left to do, but congrats to the @Uber team."


johan_larson 1 day ago 3 replies      
Could we stop posting links to paywalled content, for crying out loud? Or at least require that it be marked? Most news is available somewhere without a subscription.
georgeecollins 1 day ago 0 replies      
So for $70b I can buy a wallet that pays me -2.8b per year? Not to be negative, but it sounds like it is time for a down round.
LIGO Detects Gravitational Waves for Third Time caltech.edu
275 points by eaq  12 hours ago   87 comments top 12
smortaz 10 hours ago 1 reply      
FYI - if you want to check out the data, the code, even an audio of the wave checkout:


It's a Jupyter notebook that anyone can clone and run.

[edit: updated link]

cletus 11 hours ago 2 replies      
The numbers here are just staggering:

- Black hole merger occurred 3 billion light years away

- Two solar masses were converted to energy

- Briefly 10^34 megatons of energy were released every second

This is hard to intuitively wrap your head around because we think of space as constant. Something like this can distort space itself. Amazing stuff.

mturmon 12 hours ago 1 reply      
I was at a talk by Janna Levin, astrophysicist and author of a book Black Hole Blues that describes LIGO. (E.g., https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/18/books/review-black-hole-b...)

She gave a neat analogy between GWs, as sensed by LIGO, and an electric guitar. In the sense that a distant pluck on the string is transmitted as a wave down the string to the pickup, which senses a little wiggle in the string and amplifies it. I thought it was a poetic analogy that gives a second meaning to the word "instrument" in this context.

eaq 12 hours ago 1 reply      
The paper describing the event is available to the public at https://dcc.ligo.org/LIGO-P170104/public

The instrument data of this event is also available to the public at https://losc.ligo.org/events/GW170104/

wolfram74 12 hours ago 5 replies      
Anyone familiar with this branch of astronomy want to explain why one detection in a volume on the order of 27 billion cubic light years is reasonable? Are they still processing data and will find more events? Is the sensitivity highly anisotropic so the detection volume is significantly smaller? Or are events like this just really conveniently rare that we get about 1 every data gathering interval?
gjem97 11 hours ago 2 replies      
> These are collisions that produce more power than is radiated as light by all the stars and galaxies in the universe at any given time.

Astounding, especially given that these are happening at regular intervals in our "neighborhood".

shortstuffsushi 11 hours ago 3 replies      
Somewhat naive questions, as I know very little about astronomy. Do black holes "move?" How is it that they could merge if they're stationary, unless they're pulling each other in I guess? If black holes are indeed pulling in everything, does that mean the whole universe would eventually be one giant black hole?
castis 9 hours ago 2 replies      
When a gravitational wave hits the earth, does the planet oscillate in place for the duration, or is our position in the cosmos displaced, or something else altogether?
netcraft 10 hours ago 3 replies      
Great veritasium video about this latest wave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVKO7UCIlgs

What is involved with increasing sensitivity I wonder? Is it purely lengthening the arms? or are there other advancements required?

Hopefully one day we can have these things in space, isolated from noise and curvature of the earth and no need for vacuum equipment.

nurettin 10 hours ago 4 replies      
How does LIGO separate vibrations caused by a nearby truck from whatever reading that is required for gravitational waves?
shawkinaw 7 hours ago 0 replies      
This is awesome. I spent a summer in high school at LIGO Hanford (Washington), it's so cool to see positive results starting to come out of it.
mudil 10 hours ago 3 replies      
Here's what I don't understand.

In the first detection, they mentioned that two black holes collapsed, emitted gravitational waves, and the resulting combined mass was less than then sum of two previous masses because energy was spent on gravitational wave generation. Hence it means, that due to gravitational interactions, objects leak mass. Now, we know that every object in the universe is gravitationally related to every other object, plus universe is expanding hence objects are constantly in flux with each other. The question is where all the leaked mass goes? Can this leakage account for dark matter? What about the space-time, does it function as a storage medium for this energy that now came from the leaked mass?

Please explain...

Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day nytimes.com
324 points by tysone  12 hours ago   124 comments top 19
SurrealSoul 11 hours ago 10 replies      
Kind of a personal story, but my fianc is from Beijing. She found out about Tiananmen square about a year ago. She only knew that she shouldn't ask about the Tiananmen incident growing up and that it was a bad thing that happened.

She has been in the states for several years now and when she found out what really happened with our even blurry images and stories we have now it really changed her perspective on things.

Even though its 28 years old, many of the younger generations don't know a thing about what happened, regardless if it's censored in their country or not.

History should not be censored like this. You should not have to move out of country to know what your country has done. I am extremely grateful for the brave photographer preserving his images for the world.

blackbagboys 12 hours ago 1 reply      
An inspiring collection of photos, but I'd bet it attracts little interest outside a few select, irrelevant circles. One of the most heartbreaking thing about the massacre is not just that the mass murderers who ordered it were never held responsible but that today it barely even tarnishes their reputations, while the memory of their victims has been thoroughly suppressed.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 11 hours ago 3 replies      
Yet another example of "nothing matters like success." Since 1989, China has gone on to have great success - both economic and diplomatic, and is on the verge (if not already achieved) super-power status.

Because of that success, there is not much anybody can do about human rights abuses, so most people don't pay much attention to it.

wonderous 11 hours ago 1 reply      
Interesting how even after all this time that no one knows who "Tank Man" was and within China, few even know he existed at all:


qwertyegg 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Glad to see many reasonable comments here.

I have a vague memory of CCTV(official media, not your backyard CCTV) footage that depicting students and other people as mobs and killing soliders and burning the dead soldiers body.

Over the years, I got more and more piece of information about what happened at the time. clearly Chinese government is still trying to cover up what they did, and many exiles is still making up fake stories.

Nowadays in China people don't really care that much as you thought they would. The general consensus is that they are willing to forget about what happened and move on since it's full of opportunities right now and most people are more focused on getting a better life.

Not saying Chinese government was right they knew what happened was shameful and still forbids open news covfefe or discussion about it. In a booming economy it's just hard to mass up enough momentum to really get into a discussion about what happens in 1989, people just don't care anymore.

clort 10 hours ago 1 reply      
Its interesting that they used his english name, to protect his identity (and his family) but then go on to state his approximate age, that he runs restaurants, comes from Dalian, has an uncle in taiwan and migrated to the USA in 2012. Now then, I'm sure many people here could construct a database query to find the guy based on this information; the question is, does China have such a database? I know, they have a billion people but I hope some of this other information is obfuscated..
vtange 11 hours ago 6 replies      
There's inevitably going to be people trying to justify the tragedy here by suggesting America is no better, pointing to instances such as the Kent State Shootings (Vietnam War protest).

For those people I'd like to point out that unlike China, America doesn't actively try to hide the negative sides of its history to the extent China does. I can read about the Kent State shootings all I want, along with the My Lai Massacre, the Trail of Tears, American involvement in Central America or the Middle East, etc..

It is in fact sad that China depends on the West to expose the darker sides of its past, and then claims Western negative bias whenever we do.

hohohmm 10 hours ago 1 reply      
fludlight 11 hours ago 1 reply      
Student protests really scare older Chinese because they remember the reign of terror that the Red Guard kids perpetuated during the Cultural Revolution in the 1960s.
justicezyx 6 hours ago 0 replies      
The rich and powerful (note I did not separate government & individuals, increasing these 2 groups are merging together, and seriously, the censorship in this area is way better than things happen in the past) in China have to maintain a great public image. Even if a significant fraction of the population are fully aware of that being superficial, there are definitely larger fraction of people who does believe in the camouflage. Not that such people are ignorant, their life is hard enough to really have the spare time for these stuff.

The reason such history is heavily censored, is precisely for this cause. Such thing will never be freely available, as long as the social structure and political system works in the same way.

srcmap 11 hours ago 0 replies      
I remember watched a fascinate behind the scene documentary on the down fall of Gorbachev by the old USSR conservative leadership which actually caused the rise of Yeltsin in Youtube recently.

Likely in China during that period of time, the high level struggle for power also happened in BeiJing. In China the reformers of the time didn't win.

bluetwo 11 hours ago 1 reply      
English Wikipedia still calls it the "Tiananmen Square protests of 1989" instead of the "Tiananmen Square Massacre" which is what pretty much everyone outside China calls it.

Maybe someday we'll stop China from censoring Wikipedia.

pilom 7 hours ago 0 replies      
I'm a 30 year old in the US. Unfortunately all I know is that there was a protest and some of the protesters got shot and there was a person standing in front of a tank. It's not like wikipedia tells accurate information about the event. Rather than alluding to what happened, can someone just spell out exactly what happened? Or give a non-propagandized link to what happened?
perlpimp 7 hours ago 0 replies      
really wealth legitimized power of the communists and paved they way to insidious regime. had it been not for globalization china could've been the freest country in the world. alas we have this.
Markoff 11 hours ago 0 replies      
not sure what has this to do with hacking/IT, but

Tiananmen square massacre is mislabeled event, more people died in other parts of Beijing than average in the square, so more appropriate name would be Beijing massacre or what Chinese use 6/4.

People who died in square were pretty much suicidal since they were warned to leave and were told to leave even by their own protester leaders.

It should be always mentioned that wife of current hard liner president Mao 2.0 She Gin Pimp was singing at that time to murderers in square.

Overall not sure why are media so obsessed with this event were few thousand people died instead or mentioning millions who died thanks to glorified Mao. It's pretty good trade-off with DXP for most of the Chinese compared to trade-off gained with Mao.

throw2016 11 hours ago 1 reply      
Without wishing away the massacre or diminishing the kind of despotic environment that allows this to happen shouldn't the same kind of moral reprehension be expressed for the massive loss of life in the middle east from Libya, Iraq to Syria?

Yet we rarely see this in the same context as these actions continue to be pursued aggressively with little resistance from citizens in the west.

This seems to a very selective form of morality in practice more at ease judging others than examining our own actions.

Tiananmen is past and beyond but the loss of life and destruction of entire countries that puts millions of lives in disarray in the middle east is here and now and continues unabated yet there is little pressure on our leaders to cease these actions from citizens. No western leader is tainted with the kind of moral reprehension directed at the Chinese inspite of far more serious crimes against humanity. There is a definite dissonance here.

racl101 11 hours ago 1 reply      
Still, I gots to know what happened to tank dude. I gots to know.
hohohmm 10 hours ago 0 replies      
pololee 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Surprised that the article showed up on HackerNews
On Conference Speaking hynek.me
394 points by danielh  1 day ago   116 comments top 21
Touche 1 day ago 3 replies      
I've not done nearly as many conference talks as many people here (I do about one a year) but just for entertainment here is how it usually goes for me:

1. Come up with a proposal, send it out to as many conferences as I can find.

2. Wait.

3. Most reject it. Some times (often, actually) all of them reject it. Go back to step 1 (You lose 3 or 4 months when you are waiting, not knowing if any will accept your proposal).

4. If one of them accepted, be overjoyed!

5. Tell myself I'll start working on the talk super early so I'm extra prepared.

6. Actually not start until 1 to 1 and a half months before the conference.

7. Be super stressed. Not get anything else meaningful done.

8. Day of the talk I am angry at myself for agreeing to do it when I get little out of it.

9. Do the talk, it goes way better than I expected! I didn't totally embarrass myself and people seemed engaged.

10. It's over! Oh my god, it's over! Thinking of all of the things I can get done now, I'm never giving another talk and putting myself through that again.

11. 3 or 4 months pass and I see people I know are giving talks and I get the itch to do it myself again... back to step 1.

ethomson 1 day ago 2 replies      
On the whole, this is excellent advice. The introduction is completely true for me: I give many talks every year and it is, without question, a _lot_ of work. I suspect that everybody is a bit different as to how they prepare, but like the author, I do the cold rehearsal in my hotel room a half-dozen times (at least) before I actually go to give the talk.

I also break my talk into logical chunks - say five or six sections. I practice each of those individually, timing them. This gives me an average for how long each section takes, so I have a schedule written down. This lets me know how far over or under my time allotment I am so that I can adjust on the fly, either adding some additional explanation to some areas or subtly truncating something.

I always know my "bail out" slide - if I end up running out of time, what's the "thank you!" slide number? If you simply type in that slide number in PowerPoint or Keynote, it will jump to that slide without fanfare. Don't ever tell your audience that you ran out of time to get to all your material, or flip through the slides to the end that they won't get to see. They'll feel like they were ripped off. (Also, make sure to structure your talk so that the special bonus material is at the end, so they're _not_ actually ripped off.)

mxstbr 1 day ago 6 replies      
Having spoken at ~20 international conferences I'm pretty certain people underestimate the work that goes into giving a great talk you'll remember.

This also bugs me when people say "Oh, that person's given this talk at that conference before". Preparing a good talk is a lot of work, and after that's put in why should you not be allowed to give that talk more than one time?

Also only very few people watch conference videos. Giving the same talk a dozen times, by the 10th time maybe a handful of people in an audience of hundreds will have seen the talk before. I'm honestly surprised conferences still record the talks because I'm fairly certain it's not worth the money for them. (there are outliers to this when somebody gives the most amazing talk ever that gets watch millions of times, but how often does that happen?)

I'd much rather conferences invest money into a better experience for the attendees and speakers.

yomrholmes 1 day ago 0 replies      
I spoke at my first conference about two years ago, and it was a huge learning experience. Here's how I'd do it again, if I did it again:

1. Expect this gig to take a huge amount of time. As such, make sure that you allocate 1-2 weeks of full time work to prepare. Will it take this much time? Probably not, but its good to prepare anyways and know what you're diving into.

2. Speak at a conference as part of a much larger communications strategy. What does that mean? Its waaay easier to speak about something that you're already talking about on your blog, with customers or with your colleagues. Then, you can just develop that existing conversation into something that works well in front of a live audience. Developing an idea is a lot easier than creating an idea from scratch.

3. Test ideas first on your blog, HN or Twitter. Generally, what people want to hear and engage with at a conference is similar to what people want to read and engage with online. So, write a bunch of articles and share a bunch of articles, and see what people like from that.

4. Practice, practice, practice. Talking at a conference is like giving a performance. Would some violin player just wing it on stage? Definitely not, unless they have 10,000 hours of experience. So, practice giving your talk at home in front of the mirror. Hire someone to watch you while you practice. Per point one, this stuff takes time, and like any piece of work, you need to develop your skills.

jwildeboer 1 day ago 1 reply      
I admit I am one of those conference speakers that doesn't prepare a lot. I tend to discuss the topic beforehand with the organisers, go inside the venue to get a feel for the audience, go on stage and just deliver. IMHO it is all about creating a bond with your audience and interact with them as spontaneous as possible. Works for me, but I know it's not for everyone.

I also rarely use slides nowadays. That helps a lot. Sometimes I use a whiteboard. The way I deliver keynotes and presentations is maybe best summed up (and definitely inspired by) this article from the late Pieter Hintjens:

http://hintjens.com/blog:107 Ten Steps to Better Public Speaking

nickjj 1 day ago 1 reply      
Glad to see I'm not the only one who relies on scripts.

After having recorded 36 hours worth of video training courses, I've written over 150,000 words of scripts because explaining technical information in a concise way usually depends on thinking about how to word your sentences beforehand.

I'm really envious of people who can wing in depth tech talks amazingly well, but at the same time I'd also be surprised if those people even exist. Winging it "decently" and "amazingly well" are so much different.

shidoshi 1 day ago 0 replies      
Lots of "I give a lot of talk" folks on here. I'm a listener, and I just want to thank all of you. Being brave and sharing your knowledge to help empower others is no small thing. So, again, thank you.
porterde 1 day ago 0 replies      
Great article. Reminds me of Damian Conway's great conference talk on giving tech presentations - that one changed my approach on preparing for talks forever. https://youtu.be/W_i_DrWic88 and http://damian.conway.org/IBP.pdf are the notes. Well worth watching.
brightball 1 day ago 0 replies      
I speak at a lot of local meetups and from one of those got invited to speak at a pretty big conference (M3AAWG). It was really intimidating since the speakers consisted almost entirely of Facebook, Google, Comcast, Microsoft, Rackspace...and somehow me.

I enjoyed it but was really nervous and had some serious imposter syndrome going on. I generally like giving talks but for me, it was a very different experience knowing that you were speaking for people who were paying to be there. The speaking invite allowed me to attend the conference for free though and I learned a lot.

My talk was basically a practitioner's experience of using/implementing a lot of different anti-phishing/anti-fraud techniques that people were deeply specialized in throughout other parts of the conference. I had what I hope, for others sake, was a very unique experience of combating a lot of fraud and seeing things come from all angles where a lot of larger targets will tend to deal with different parts of attacks in entirely different departments. I couldn't go deep on anything, but mainly got to share my experience.

munns 1 day ago 0 replies      
I speak as part of my job and have spoken at probably 20+ events that are 3rd party to my employer in the past 2 years. Currently I am averaging about a conference a month in 2017.

I thought this was a really great list. Some big ones I like to call out:

#9: Travel - This gets me more than most things. I have on occasions bumped into other speakers completely unprepared for their travel for or for things that might go "boom" such as: laptop failure, presentation corruption, display adapters not existing (or breaking which is harder to prepare for) and my personal favorite Immunity Boosters. Hell yes. A coworker turned me on to these two years ago after coming down with the plague after speaking at a few too many events in a short period. Now its a must for me and whether its placebo effect or not I haven't gotten sick while traveling/speaking since.

#10: Showtime - No one is born a great speaker. Flat out no one. I know people who speak weekly at public events and they used to suck at it too. Don't be afraid/stress too much before a talk. That said, I have seen people bite off more than they can chew and give a first talk at a major tech event such as AWS's Re:Invent where rooms average 1k people. If you're going to choke at your first event, don't have it be that big/visible of a one. Start with local meetups!

#5/6: A big one that I always recommend is peer review your content before you even start dry runs. Presentations often live longer on sites such as Slideshare than they do in the minds of those who have seen them live. It is in sites like Slideshare that your spelling, grammar, and even design issues will stand out the most. Get someone who is detached from your presentation to read through it, maybe even two people, take that feedback and then move forward. For me, my wife who was a journalism major reviews almost all of my content despite not knowing much about the technical nature.

Samathy 1 day ago 0 replies      
Great blog post and certainly a lot to take away.

I've spoken quite a few times and several different conferences/events and love it.However, the thing I struggle with most is coming up with a topic. I find it incredibly hard to think of something I believe people will find interesting.However, I expect this is simply down to lacking industry experience and not having spent extensive time working with any particular language/tool.

AndrewKemendo 1 day ago 0 replies      
This guy basically prepares his "Hour" the same way a stand-up does, though without that all crucial audience feedback you need for comedy.

That's a great way to do it if you are focusing on one specific thing at a year turnaround rate.

If however you are asked to present a wide range of topics then it doesn't work quite the same and you need to be better at improvising and speaking off the cuff.

I probably speak 15 times a year on 3 different topics:

Augmented Reality

Applied Machine Learning


Each time I am asked to speak, I pull slides or structure from previous talks, and then update them with the latest from the field or my own constant research/learning.

Generally speaking though I don't start prep more than a week in advance - which is different than most people I think because I have so much experience here.

The day before, I will spend a few hours going through a routine where I just present several times to my hotel room. If it's an hour long presentation I won't typically walk through the whole thing each time, just the transitions usually. Once done I'll distill the points I'm making into bullets and write them onto a notecard. If there is a podium I'll use the notecard, if not then I just gotta memorize the bullets and go from there.

The reality here is also that a lot of conference speaking is about building momentum from previous talks and building relationships with the conference organizers. You need to have a great relationship with the organizer because things will go wrong and being able to show you can go with the flow is important.

Almost as important as what you present is being able to present it. Being prepared for contingencies (slide backups on dropbox, thumb drive, laptop with HDMI and VGA), knowing how to wear a pin mic, talk into a handheld mic, knowing how to use a clicker, doing pre-show prep for wonky videos or sound issues where necessary, know how to answer questions, give space for panel members to talk etc... are all parts of the equation that make you a good speaker or not and thus get invited to speak or not.

Most people miss all of these things or ignore them assuming that the staff has everything covered. Generally speaking conference staff are run ragged so anything you can do to help make their lives easier is appreciated and will be remembered.

tezza 1 day ago 12 replies      
Are conference speakers paid ?

How do you keep earning money when giving talks all the time ?

Do they pay the airfare and accommodation ?

Does their work sponsor them or do they take personal holiday ?

simonswords82 1 day ago 0 replies      
I've been running a software company, working on and managing various software projects, and launching/running software products for 10+ years.

The timing of this article is excellent as I was just about to start the search for conferences I could share some of my knowledge with. I've spoken at universities, colleges, and small business conferences a bunch of times and my talks are usually well received.

However, I'm still not sure about is where to find conferences with audiences who might be interested in what I have to say.

baby 1 day ago 0 replies      
I haven't given as many talks so I can't really contribute, but I see a very different pattern already: I tend to apply when I already have researched a topic and have some slides. Maybe I should re-think my approach :)

Also I would never drink coffee (or any caffeinated drink) before a talk, and rather wake up late to get a goooood night of sleep. Also eat really light.

> If you watch the talk, you may notice that I dont do Q&As. That has two reasons

Never really understood Q&As after the talk. We can always have a private discussions or use different ways to ask questions.

itaysk 1 day ago 1 reply      
I'm curios about travel arrangements: i have spoken in many many events locally where I live, but never abroad. Thinking to propose a talk for a conference abroad, is it acceptable to expect them to cover travel expenses? (Not talking about pay for the talk itself, just flights and hotel)
zaiste 1 day ago 2 replies      
Fantastic article and wonderful tips. You could package it as an e-book, and maybe even sell it ;)

A shameless plug: I'm working on a side project which aims to help tech speakers get the most out of speaking engagements: https://eventil.com/for/speakers

sanswork 1 day ago 3 replies      
I'm quite envious of conference speakers. I would love the experience but I never have any solid ideas that I think I could turn into a good talk.
htormey 1 day ago 1 reply      
Does anyone maintain a directory of conferences that accept proposals grouped by technology?
jasonlotito 1 day ago 1 reply      
A lot of good advice, but I personally disagree with the slides not standing on their own. For me, slides + speaker notes should be able to stand on their own. It requires extra work and effort, but I believe the results are generally better because people can then consume the material the way they want.

However, like your guidelines, this is my personal one.

juskrey 1 day ago 5 replies      
If a speaker should specifically train him/herself for a talk, the talk is not worth listening.
Why do so few people major in computer science? danwang.co
414 points by dmnd  3 days ago   595 comments top 97
lordnacho 3 days ago 32 replies      
The grief factor of learning to code is on a different scale to every other major. One missing semicolon will take your whole tower down, and you realise this in the first day of practical exercises.

Even if you are of the opinion that CS is math, and coding doesn't come into it, you will hit a coding wall early on.

In fact, every exercise in CS has this problem. You add a new thing (eg inheritance), and it breaks. But not only that, it might be broken because of a banal little syntax problem.

And that's just what you consider code. If you put in the wrong compiler flags, it breaks. If you can't link because something needed rebuilding, it breaks. Want to avoid it? Learn how make works. Huge number of options, which you won't understand, because you're a novice.

Oh and learn git, too. And Linux. Just so you can hand in the homework.

Compare this to the rest of university. I'll use my own experience.

- Engineering subjects tend to revolve around a small number of vignettes. Here's an aircraft engine in thermo. Draw some boundaries, apply some equations. If you get it wrong, your tutor can still see if you were going the right way. Once you've learned the relevant points, it's not hard doing some rearrangements and plugging in some numbers.

- Economics essays are basically bullet points. Miss one out, you still have an essay. Which you can hand in without knowing git.

simonsarris 3 days ago 7 replies      
Slight note about Dan Wang picking 2005: That was the peak of CS degrees awarded because it's 4/5 years after the height of the dot-com bubble. So the upward bump in the mid-2000's is somewhat explainable as an anomaly.

I think his point 1 is underrated. CS degrees are flat because aptitude is flat.

You can compare CS degrees to other degrees over time at nsf.gov:


We have more grads than ever, but they are dumber than ever (we have the data to prove this), getting less difficult degrees.

I have a bad feeling that we are running up against some diminishing returns on education and hiding it with numbers like the total number of grads. The number of grads for difficult degrees and the quality of grads seems to be another story.

> In 1970s 1-in-2 college grads aced Wordsum test. Today 1-in-6 do. Using that as a proxy for IQ of the median college grad, in the 70s it was ~112, now its ~100.

More stats: https://medium.com/@simon.sarris/why-is-computer-science-enr...

cynusx 3 days ago 3 replies      
The whole idea that people pick their education based on rational assumptions when they are 18, know essentially nothing and are coming straight out of an environment where perceived status is all that matters on the playgrounds is ridiculous.

The choice of what to study is not a rational decision but a social decision. People follow their friends, guys go study what the hottest girls he knows are going to study, parents push kids to study fields that they themselves perceive as high-status like finance, law or medicine.

The biggest problem with computer science degrees is that it is a relatively new field and it hasn't been embedded in society as high status yet. This will change, but it will take generations for it to take effect.

The field is obviously difficult but you don't have to be a genius to get a CS degree, it doesn't require much more determination to study ridiculous amounts of jargon for law or medicine degree then to understand complex discrete mathematics problems. The social cost of "failing" a law degree is much higher (parents complain son of X did pass and he had similar SATS) then failing an engineering degree (parents understand "it", they don't understand computers either).

dahart 3 days ago 3 replies      
Whoa, that chart seems really misleading. There are 3x more CS majors than math majors and 2x more than physics. The chart is showing derivatives, not absolutes. That basically undermines the title of the article.

Looking at the graph, it's also super important to see the context before 2005 -- that start date adds significantly to the misleading impression this graph is giving.

Math had more majors in 1970 than it does today. Physics has only grown by 50% in the last 40 years, and both have had huge dips just like CS had.

I was coming up with some explanations myself, but now I think I reject the premise, and feel like the right question is: why are so many people majoring in CS and so few in math and physics. More math and physics people can code than ever before, it seems like they'd be able to score coding jobs and be more prepared than a lot of CS grads.

overgard 3 days ago 2 replies      
I think the problem is how the subject is taught. I remember my first CS class, and there was quite a bit of diversity that quickly disappeared after the first test when people started dropping the class. (I'm pretty sure something like half the class disappeared, and I don't think this is at all unusual). So why did all those people initially find interest, and then disappear?

I remember the way they taught it was VERY dogmatic Java/OOP. Putting aside my personal feelings on those subjects, that's like teaching someone to swim by throwing them in the ocean without a life jacket. I tutored some other students, and picking up the language AND the IDE and the debugger and understanding compilers -- it was too much. I remember trying to learn java as a kid and being baffled, and then picking up QBasic and basically getting it immediately. QBasic teaches you some awful habits of course, but for a beginner it's much easier to reason about and it will teach you how to think like a computer. I'm not suggesting we go back to teaching QBasic, but it has to be something other than Java. I think CS departments throw everyone in the deep end with an awful curriculum, and then act surprised that everyone leaves except the hardcore nerds that already knew these subjects before they got to school.

kutkloon7 3 days ago 16 replies      
I majored in computer science, and I don't feel like I've learned anything. Every time there was an opportunity to learn something cool (mathematical theory behind cryptography, assembly language, details of a processor, the cache, or a communication protocol) or useful, it was glanced over as 'technical details'. Instead, I was introduced to many, many small topics (programming, graphics, databases, algorithms, user experience, functional programming, logic, web programming), but we didn't go in the depth. To be honest, I forgot most of it. It did easily land me a job as a consultant, though.

I honestly wish I'd picked a more interesting major, like electrical engineering or physics. I feel like I could learn the things I've learned in a few months (which may or may not be true).

Computer science is just not very hard, while physics, math, and engineering is. I think the guys from other fields can be more successful programmers, just because they are smarter (more used to solving hard problems).

In computer science, the only course that required a little bit of creativity was algorithms. It was stuff mathematicians are practically trained to do (be it not in exactly the same setting).

xxSparkleSxx 3 days ago 8 replies      
I think the market is just way over saturated. Hiring practices for developers point to just that.

I mentioned in a different thread how simole it is for my travel-nurse of a sister to get a new job (her stints around the Bay Area paid ~100k and she only has 2 years of experience).

Developers jump through hoop after hoop for employment, this wouldn't happen if they were in demand like a nurse. The market is just responding appropriately, though maybe not how the masters would prefer it.

CM30 3 days ago 1 reply      
I still suspect it's this reason from the post:

> You dont need a CS degree to be a developer

With another catch. Basically, a lot of people don't intend to go into the tech industry right away. No, they end up in it because it's one of the faster growing industries with decent financial prospects.

So they learn something else, work in a different field for a bit (or a low paid retail job) then end up going into tech where the jobs and money are.

Not everyone is 'passionate' about the subject.

cs702 3 days ago 3 replies      
One possible answer no one has mentioned so far is that there many smart, capable people who do NOT want to spend hours every day sitting at a desk, in front of a computer, focused on code, with limited human interaction... so they pursue majors in other fields.
theprop 2 days ago 2 replies      
I'm not sure about that data. Definitely lots of engineers and physicists as it has been noted have programming experience. Beyond that, tons more people are majoring in computer science as of the last 10 years.

It's become the most popular major at Stanford.

At Princeton in just 5 years from 2011 to 2016 it grew 3x to become the most popular major from 36 to 130 majors. At Yale in those 5 years, the number of CS majors doubled (though it's not the most popular major there).

In at least 3 states now the single most popular job is software engineers (30 years ago in just about every single state it used to be driver), and I imagine that trend is only going to continue so you will see more and more computer science majors.



johan_larson 3 days ago 2 replies      
I would guess the issue is prestige. Software development, like engineering in general, is not a top-tier profession in the US. The actually top-tier professions are doctor, lawyer, and banker/financier. Software developers, like accountants, are well paid but second-tier in status, geeks who worry about the details rather than distinguished professionals who call the shots.

Interestingly, the three professions I mentioned above all have graduate degrees, whereas software developers have B.Sc. credentials, if that.

brod 3 days ago 0 replies      
I am a self taught web developer, I started a bachelor in IT with a CS major mid 2014 assuming the title would increase job opportunities.

Late 2014 I landed a part-time job in web development, that role then moved to full-time and I transitioned out of the Bachelor program as I was learning more valuable work-related skills at my job or in my spare time.

Since then I've advertised to employers that I'm part way through a bachelor, willing to complete if they believe it's necessary but otherwise not interested. I'm now earning just above the average cited in the article and have no intentions of returning to school.

I know of a few classmates that are in the same boat, they got a part-time job, transitioned to full-time and quit schooling.

In my opinion, the fact I was studying was critical in landing the first job but useless afterwards once I could prove my ability and worth. I doubt people who only completed a degree could compete at technical interviews against people with a self taught background.

runeks 2 days ago 1 reply      
One possible answer: you can learn computer science without needing a degree at all, and subsequently prove that you've learned it by just writing a program that works.

That makes a CS degree inherently less valuable than almost all other degrees out there. Why would employers request a degree saying you know your stuff, when they can just ask you to prove it directly?

I was recently st a meetup and met a guy I went to school with. When he was in the process of acquiring his masters degree in physics, he was contacted by Google, who wanted to employ him. He went to an interview (which, apparently, was several interviews by different people all working for Google), and he got the job and moved to Ireland to work for them. Moral of the story: get a degree which offers the greatest value for money, and learn CS in your spare time, for free.

GnarfGnarf 3 days ago 0 replies      
Engineering, physics, math etc. differ from Comp. Sci. in one major respect (so I hear from colleagues).

If you invest a finite amount of hours in the first category, you are pretty much guaranteed you will have something to show for it. Not easy, not simple, but you will get results.

Comp. Sci. is a black hole. You can blow ten hours on an obscure logic error. Students know from experience that their tightly budgeted schedule can be wrecked, and they can miss deadlines for reasons that seem out of proportion with the payback. This impacts their other subjects as well.

BTW I've a 50-year career in IT. The sum total of my academic qualifications was 1 week of FORTRAN. The rest I learned on the job.

elihu 3 days ago 1 reply      
My theory: computer programming is awesome, but getting a good job doing interesting work is really hard. A bachelor's degree in computer science won't even get your foot in the door in a lot of places. However, there is lots of work doing IT for banks or writing Java for insurance companies or creating web pages for doctor's offices. That sort of thing might pay pretty well, but it's not the sort of thing that you would have said when someone asked you what you wanted to be when you grow up.

Maybe a lot of prospective students perceive (correctly or not) that all the best jobs are already filled by talented people and the competition for those is intense. If you didn't get in at the right time when the industry was in a massive growth phase, you're more likely to get stuck in a dead-end job.

ryanmarsh 3 days ago 1 reply      
> I think that people who go to college decide on what to major in significantly based on two factors: earning potential and whether a field is seen as high-status.

Also laziness, virtue signaling, dilettance, and genuine interest.

david-cako 3 days ago 2 replies      
A better question is "why do we care".

Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness.

The major also doesn't fix the thought process. You either have it or you don't.

GCA10 3 days ago 1 reply      
Dan nearly solves his own riddle with possible explanation No. 2: "You dont need a CS degree to be a developer." He just doesn't spend long enough probing this issue.

Majoring in computer science is like majoring in English with hopes of becoming a writer. Or majoring in economics with hopes of starting a business. You'll get all the theory. You'll mingle with all the lifers. But because you try to come into the guild at age 18, there's a risk of narrowness/tunnel vision.

The people majoring in stats, math, physics, etc. may work on more interesting problems during their college years, or develop a more holistic sense of how to come at big new areas of learning. Meanwhile, the opportunities for non-CS majors to pick up programming skills via electives or non-classroom projects are huge.

Where Dan sees a problem, I'm seeing a healthy diversity. The U.S. is able to come up with enough software talent as is, drawing on many different pathways. Why insist that everyone be trained the same way?

metaphor 3 days ago 0 replies      
No discriminant between BS and BA flavors of CS. No numbers to capture those who minored in CS. No breakdown of engineering by discipline (in particular, CpE and EE). Interesting data, but it leaves much to be desired.

Surprising that there's no discussion of CS as a "tool" discipline in the same sense as math and stats are, especially at the bachelor level.

When I consider that "Engineering" comprises far more distinct disciplines than "Computer and information sciences", stats on the former are quite dismal. This becomes even more evident at the master's level[1]: for 2014-15, the number of master's degrees conferred in all engineering disciplines is ~25% less than the number CS bachelor's degrees in the same FY.

[1] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_323.10.a...

Futurebot 3 days ago 0 replies      
Aside from the many valid theories already listed, I'd add:

perception of dullness

Many people find the idea of staring at code all day, regardless of potential for remuneration, boring. Worrying about every little character, futzing around with compilers and debuggers, and reading manuals isn't many people's idea of fun.

Over the years, several non-developers have commented on this to me; "boring," "dry," and "dull" were generally the adjectives used. It's also perceived by many (rightfully) to be especially prone to the "retrain on your own dime" issue (which has become more common across industries and jobs, but in software dev is particularly acute.) The idea of spending your weekends having to learn a new library or brush up on your fundamentals to interview yet again isn't appealing, and it wouldn't surprise me if younger people were already very clued into this.

"Most desired career among young people: 'YouTuber'":


platz 3 days ago 2 replies      
Primarily, because computer programming is low-status.

(also, this is one of the main reasons why females are deterred from joining)

issa 3 days ago 0 replies      
I've always had a personal explanation that I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to back up. The most important skills that make someone a good coder are that they enjoy solving problems, and are willing to work single-mindedly on something until it is done. If you have those skills, there's really no reason to go to college to learn anything.

In fact, I would bet that the graph in the article corresponds inversely to how easy it has become to learn programming on your own. From manually copying code out of a magazine when I was a kid, to stackoverflow today.

I submit that the coders who DO get degrees are people who really enjoyed school (for reasons unrelated to learning), people who didn't really know what they wanted to do in life and school was expected of them and/or the path of least resistance, and people who are much more into research than the average developer.

mdc2161 3 days ago 1 reply      
Personal anecdote: I didn't major in it because I had no idea I would enjoy it.

I was fortunate that my engineering program had two semesters of Java. We spent more time hand drawing logic gates than coding in the intro course and so it wasn't until the second (data structures) that I realized it was something I wanted to pursue. It was too late for me to change majors at that point, but not too late to take internships and then a job as a programmer.

Houshalter 3 days ago 0 replies      
I have a theory that it's because computers are pushing coding stuff away. If you bought a personal computer in the 80s, you basically needed to learn how to program. The computer would come with a basic interpreter built in and easy to find. It would come with a thick dead tree manual on how to program it.

Windows, as far as I know, doesn't come with any programming language built in. You can do some shell stuff or js in the browser, but you can't make an application with that (easily.) And that stuff is hidden away and not encouraged, you have to do research to find out it's even there.

And mobile OSes are even more locked down. As mobile devices replace desktop computers for the vast majority of people, how are they ever supposed to get into programming?

In some sense it is easier than ever to get into programming. Programming languages are better, the internet makes learning resources much more available, there's libraries that can do whatever obscure thing you want to do. But all this is hidden away in a secret world that most users will never venture into and don't know exists.

I know this sounds like it shouldn't be a big deal, but I really believe it is. I was so intimidated by learning programming that I put it off for a long time. It seemed like it would be very complicated and difficult. When I did try to learn, I tried with C++. I also early on tried to program stuff with batch scripts and was put off by how limited it was. Eventually I tried another obscure proprietary language that I found through clicking on an ad. All of these were terrible choices for a beginner who wants to learn programming. But I didn't know enough to know they were terrible choices.

If someone had installed python on my computer and showed me some simple examples I could play with, I would have been so much better off. Eventually I stumbled across a blog post showing how to open up the developer console on a browser just by pressing F12. And some simple example stuff in js. It's like an new world just opened up to me. I know some people that had a similar experience with the computercraft mod for minecraft, of all things.

SubiculumCode 3 days ago 0 replies      
Because college is funner when you don't have to take the CS weeder course.
Osiris 3 days ago 2 replies      
I did a year a computer science before switching majors. Computer science doesn't teach students how to be software developers. It's an academic study of computing, which is important but not for the majority of development jobs.
mathattack 2 days ago 0 replies      
My 2 cents:

1) It's hard. Very hard. Unlike most other subjects you can't fluff through it. It works or it doesn't.

2) Every programming class is a ton of work. Even if you're great at the subject, it's generally your most time consuming course.

3) Because of #2, if you don't know from Day 1 that this is your major, it takes forever to get through the coursework.

4) More than most majors it's very hard to take even the intro classes if you haven't done it before.

Perhaps because of all this, most CS majors I know are people who just couldn't imagine majoring in anything else.

shmolyneaux 3 days ago 0 replies      
At the University of Waterloo in Canada, the ratio of CS applications to available spaces is over 15:1 [0] according to a Computer Science professor. It could simply be a supply issue.

[0]: https://twitter.com/plragde/status/834474871010648064

jacquesm 3 days ago 0 replies      
A very large factor is that having a CS degree is not going to make up for the years lost as a developer if you're any good. Some companies are pretty heavy on the degree requirement but even the larger ones like Google have been slowly backing away from this.

Lots of developers come into computer science through physics, maths and other peripherally related fields and discover they're good at computers.

Finally, it's hard to continue to work on a degree for a pittance while your less capable buddies are raking in 6 figure salaries. At some point the words 'opportunity cost' will start to appear in your nightmares.

matheweis 2 days ago 0 replies      
One thing that seems missing from the post is the proliferation of alternative degrees; Computer Information Systems, Information Systems, Software Engineering, Information Technology, etc etc.

I would be surprised if the aggregate of all of those degrees didn't meet or exceed the trend of the others.

djsumdog 3 days ago 1 reply      
I'm glad I got a full CS degree, but I knew several people who dropped to the business versions (often called MIS or CIS depending on your school) and learned a lot of the basics of programming and web front ends without more the hard core algorithms and foundation work.

As I read the into, I think the author touched on a lot of the reasons I was starting to think of. A lot of people do boot camps (which are overpriced for-profit garbage btw), community college programming classes, etc. I know people out of this programs that understand bigO notation and do all kinds of fun scaling work and I know CS majors who can only program Java/C# and don't know what a SATA connector is. You get out of your field what you put into it.

As far as women in our field, I hesitate here. I don't really think it's the hostile landscape. I've worked with several female engineers. Some are amazing and good designers. Some are terrible. The ratio to good/bad males, in my limited non-scientific empirical view, seems about even. I also haven't really witnesses women being treated badly either and I've worked in five cities and several jobs over the past two decades. What I have seen are entire groups of people being treated like crap in hostel work environments, not limited or segregated by race or gender.

I feel there are also not that many people in our field (both men and women) because it's...pretty horrible. Seriously, we sit in front of screen for 8 hours a day watching the world tick by, often doing our best to design the best we can to be bolted onto old decaying crap that should have been retired a decade ago. Or we build shiny new products that benefit the few and have tons of crazy requirements that come out of no where that nobody wants. There aren't as many women in engineering because in general women chose jobs that are more rewarding even if they're lower paying. I think we could all take a page from that philosophy, if we didn't live in a world where we were afraid of ending up on the bottom or without enough for essentials.

I can honestly only two about two years at a time in IT these days. I've embraced the Sabbatical (http://penguindreams.org/videos/taking-a-sabbatical/) even though I realize it's probably not sustainable long term, and also realizing my earnings in software give me this unique advantage, that most people simply don't have.

azakai 3 days ago 0 replies      
One major factor not mentioned here is that the number of college graduates in a field is not just determined by how many apply to it, nor the author's #6 (reactionary faculty that fail large amounts of people). There is also how many people are accepted in the first place.

If a university has 100 spots for CS, then even if twice as many people apply for CS in one particular year, there will still be 100 people (but with higher SATs, presumably). There is some flexibility here, but it is limited - those 100 people require a certain number of faculty and grad students to teach them. They need a large-enough building with the proper facilities (you can send students to classrooms in another building sometimes, but it's not optimal). The campus can't just accept more than the students they planned for without preparation, and those plans are made long in advance.

If a university sees a field is popular, it may work to eventually be able to accept more applicants. But it might not decide to do so - popularity among students isn't the only factor considered, there are many others, like ease of acquiring funding and grants, likelihood of undergrads becoming graduate students (and whether the university wants more or less of those), etc., all of which require multiyear planning and also have various political factors.

tl;dr It's worth seeing if we can find data on the number of applicants, and not the number of graduates. It's possible the number of applicants has been increasing.

slackingoff2017 2 days ago 0 replies      
CS requires a decent amount of smarts, requires constant learning, and is boring to most people. This is enough that it will never be an attractive job to most of the population.

Why isn't it drawing more engineers though? I think CS is seen as the risky choice for an engineering job. There's been multiple tech job boom and bust cycles over the years. Why pick CS when most branches of engineering pay almost as much and don't have nearly the risk?

Another thing I've seen happening firsthand is other professions getting dragged into the CS sphere. I know multiple electrical engineers that spend their days writing code now. Circuit design is becoming largely automated, they just need coders that understand the circuits. Same with marketing, I know a couple guys that majored in marketing who spend their days tinkering with WordPress. Finance too, basically all trading has some level of automation. Probably half the people writing code now never intended to. I like to think this, at least in part, is why so much code appears to have been written by satan.

michaelbrave 3 days ago 1 reply      
I can share my personal story.

I've always been computer savvy and would have loved to have gone into programming, now I'm trying to prep to go back to school for computer science, so I think it may be relevant.

But even being good with computers I was never really a good student in high school, and due to moving around, parents divorcing etc, I had huge gaps in my math education(I still don't know my multiplication tables). To the point that I never really thought I was good at math until I got to college.

By the time I got to college though I had already put years into becoming a graphic designer, it was my career path and I could graduate faster if I stayed on it. So I did, because I was so close to finishing. I've regretted it ever since.

Now I'm older, wiser, full of regret and better at math, so now I'd love to go back to school or attend a boot camp, but I'm legitimately broke, and I have no idea how to pay for it. So I keep trying to learn on my own, from the occasional book or youtube video.

TLDR: Math education was lacking and required, I was already on a career path, have regretted it ever since.

vandyswa 3 days ago 0 replies      
Agree that all signs are there's a glut. Note that we're down to somebody at age 30 starting to notice age discrimination. With a career longevity approaching that of an NFL player or MMA fighter, is it really a good choice any more?
dep_b 3 days ago 3 replies      
Because database connections are hard.
tsumnia 3 days ago 0 replies      
It's a few problems, but I disagree with some of the author's points. One issue it's posing the dot-com crash as a similar peak as what we are currently in. Eric Roberts of Stanford wrote an opinion article on what he saw was the ebb and flow of CS [1]. We are in another peak, undoubtedly, but I'd argue this peak mirrors 1984s popularity.

Roberts suggests the issue with the 80s "crash" was an inability to meet demand. As such, universities began placing restrictions on incoming students. If it's damn near impossible to enroll in THIS major, I'll just go elsewhere. While this next link is primarily for women, you can see every other STEM/Law/Med domains grew, while CS did not [2]. Likewise, university "retraining" was no standardized, so you may not have gotten the training you needed. Fast forward to today, we say the university system is broken, but the only competitor right now are the recruitment boot camp or the "learn it yourself" model. Regardless of your opinion of any of the three, it is clear they are attempting to be products in "handling the demand".

To counter "anti-nerd culture" and "immigrants" as bullet points - seriously? That's stuff we complained about 20 years ago (in the 2000's). Nerd culture is mainstream now that we've got billionaires everywhere and outsourcing didn't take "all the jerbs". This points sound more like parroting the concerns of the past.

[1] https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/CSCapacity/[2] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-...

fitchjo 2 days ago 0 replies      
I know not exactly what the author is discussing in his post, but as someone that did two years in CS before switching (to accountancy), one of the main reasons I switched was the stark contrast in interest in the field between myself and (seemingly) everyone else. In hindsight, I think I would have made a good project manager (instead of a developer), but that path was not really communicated to me in a way that resonated with me. So I just saw a bunch of people with a much greater zeal for coding than I had and decided I should try something different. Maybe in another life...
taylodl 3 days ago 0 replies      
"Cultural centrality ofSilicon Valley"?! Excuse me, who's culture? Most of us in the field don't care about Silicon Valley and nearly no one outside the field cares. Sounds like someone needs to get out of their bubble.
killjoywashere 2 days ago 0 replies      
Did he actually mean to imply more people major in physics? The most recent numbers show physics at an all time high of less than 8,000 bachelor's degrees awarded (1) whereas the computer science bachelor's degrees, restricted to CS departments in engineering schools (no "information" degrees, no CS departments in math or science colleges), were over 10,000 (2).

There was a drop in relative growth because several years before that, the dot-com bubble burst and women fled the field. He says he didn't see that in the NCES tables he looked at, but for pete's sake, that's the first link on Google! (3)

(1) https://www.aps.org/programs/education/statistics/bachelors....

(2) https://www.asee.org/papers-and-publications/publications/co...

(3) https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d12/tables/dt12_349.asp

siliconc0w 3 days ago 0 replies      
Schools do a terrible job getting people excited about computer science and even worse software engineering. You start with C and Java and a bunch of arcane syntax and commands to print 'Hello World' when you could start by making simple games or apps and working backwards to introduce CS concepts mr miyagi style.

I started with Basic in elementary and PHP in middle/high school and by the time I got to college - young arrogant me was like, "what is this C/java noise and why do I need it when I can already do all this cool stuff with php!". I didn't really start appreciating CS and how it applies to software engineering until much later.

BadassFractal 3 days ago 0 replies      
Can we already kill the meme that CS or STEM are hostile to women?

Correlation does not imply causation. Disparate outcomes do not imply disparate treatment. Nobody in the right mind looks at the 94% of child care services jobs being filled by women and exclaims "Aha! Systemic sexism against men, matriarchal oppression afoot, we must address this social injustice!", yet all common sense falls apart when it comes to STEM.

Good talk on the subject here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gatn5ameRr8

zacsme 2 days ago 0 replies      
I am a little surprised by so many comments talking about the problems with the CS curriculum in college. If people aren't even majoring in computer science then I would first think that the issue starts before students come to college.

Younger students, K-12, have little exposure to computer science concepts or even programming in general. Sure some schools are great but many public schools in the US are average at best.

sidlls 3 days ago 0 replies      
For the same reason so few people major in any subject. CS isn't special. People major in subjects because they're interested in them, they think the career path might be good, there is social prestige, and many other reasons. It's entirely not surprising that CS has few people selecting it as a major.

The decline or slower growth relative to other fields requiring similar kinds of intelligence may be an interesting question--or it may not be, but the posted article doesn't, in my view, present any compelling case for either answer.

Overtonwindow 3 days ago 2 replies      
Because universities continue to place a heavy emphasis on math, specifically calculus, as a gatekeeper. Calculus is useful but I don't believe it's necessary for a CS degrees.
wanderr 2 days ago 0 replies      
> Have people been deeply scarred by the big tech bubble? It bursted in 2001; if CS majors who went through it experienced a long period of difficulty, then it could be the case that they successfully warned off younger people from majoring in it. To prove this, wed have to see if people who graduated after the bubble did have a hard time

As someone who graduated shortly after the bubble burst, I can attest that yes indeed we did have a hard time. I had a year of professional programming experience under my belt (took a year off) and still couldn't find anything for a long time. Eventually took a job making 24k at a failing company that was a nightmare to work at, quit that and did tech support for a county library district (they needed someone who could program but didn't have the budget to hire a developer) making 35k for a few years. I kept an eye on the broader market during that time but it seemed like everything required 10 years of experience.

mncolinlee 3 days ago 0 replies      
I'll go with a different angle on this problem. Computers have become indistinguishable from magic for most of the modern population. Even with IDEs like IntelliJ and Visual Studio, the interface of programming has not kept pace with the sexiness of GUIs. As a result, lots of young people take computers for granted and give up quickly when presented with UNIX, git, and the rest of the command line tech stack used by programmers.

I'd say that the decreasing percentage of women in computing has also hurt. When I starting working almost a couple decades ago at Cray, they had significantly more women in programming. Today, most hard sciences graduates are women, but only about 25-30% of CS graduates are women. I don't have a great answer why this fall-off is happening, but it seems to be a symptom of cultural issues. Maybe it's the influence of VCs and the bro culture bias of finance? I honestly don't know.

Raphmedia 3 days ago 0 replies      
Two path were in front of me:

A) Enter the market without a major. Work for a low but decent pay for 4 years (with yearly pay raises) and then use the experience to move elsewhere and jump up in salary.

B) Spend 4 years without any pay, get out of school and end up with an entry position, work 4 more years and then move to a position that offers a good salary.

Needless to say that I went with A) and am not regretting it at all.

jokoon 2 days ago 0 replies      
Because there so many different things to do in CS. Knowing how to code will already give you a job, but mastering CS at a certain level is another realm of work, and CS keeps changing and evolving.

That's like working with cars, you need fewer engineers, and many mechanics and technicians.

Coding is like a spoken language. It's not so hard to write and fix code and there is already a lot of business involving just that, so my guess is that many students just learn to code and don't really do real CS.

The computing industry keeps growing and growing, so it means you need more technicians to keep up with growth, not nice degrees. Of course it's nice to have PhDs, but good luck training them. Education relies on constrained resources.

paulmooreparks 2 days ago 0 replies      
I don't understand the assumption that a software developer should study computer science to prepare for a career in designing, writing, and delivering computer software.

Consider the building trades. Employees in that industry don't study "Building Science". Architects study architecture. Engineers study engineering. Craftsmen in the various building trades study in apprenticeships.

Why not admit that computer scientists should study computer science (a valid and useful area of study in its own right) and instead develop a full-fledged degree program for the various skills involved in the software-development industry?

eximius 3 days ago 0 replies      
Personally, I just didn't want the workload. My favorite semester was when I was taking 4 senior level math courses. Each week, I'd hunker down and knock out the homework over 2-4 hours for each class. For CompSci, it's more like 10-20 hours for each class. The workload in CS is just stupid.
sovande 3 days ago 0 replies      
CS jobs in the west are victims of Globalisation. We simply cannot compete with Asia and Eastern Europe with regards to wages. Hence outsourcing which has been ongoing for decades. We _can_ compete on quality and solutions, but these are hidden properties which might or might not be a problem in the finished product. Business people consider scope and cost first and foremost. In addition, many of the best and highest paid programmers are self-thought. This works, because 99.9% of your career will be bread and butter CRUD apps anyone can do. At the university we studied algorithms and data structures which we will never use or implement. When was the last time you had to do a breadth-first-search on a graph? I really cannot recommend anyone in the west to study CS today.
matthewbauer 3 days ago 0 replies      
I haven't seen a mention of this, but what about the rise of CS-like degrees that people have been getting. Many colleges now offer "software engineering" and related majors. In addition some colleges have recently now CS into the Engineering department. Could that be messing up the data?
01572 3 days ago 4 replies      
To an audience of CS majors this will probably sound like trolling but honestly I have never used any software written by a "computer scientist" that I came to value and rely on -- software that I consciously chose to use.

Whereas I have found such software on multiple ocassions written by mathematicians or persons in some other field, e.g., physics, etc.

As a user of software, I do not believe that a computer science degree is of any significance in terms of the ability to write good software.

The blog post makes a comparison to Liars Poker. Perhaps it should be noted that the author of Liars Poker majored in art history. It was not necessary for him to have a particular degree in finance to do his "job". That was the point of book.

The question to ask today is whether one needs a degree in CS to write good software.

armchair_hunter 3 days ago 0 replies      
The chart shows degrees conferred, not how many people are enrolled in a degree. I've been teaching CS at universities since 2010 and I've seen a tremendous growth in CS enrollment. On the flip side, a large number of students fail.

This spring, I failed about about a third of my pupils in the intro class and in following data structure course.If this holds true for future semesters -as it has for the past few- only around half actually make it through data structures.

CS is hard, and not just because of how exacting the syntax is. It is completely new for many students. Engineering is hard, but a student has expectations they could draw on from math and physics. Same with biology related fields and chem related fields. There are expectations from high school a student can draw upon.

akhilcacharya 3 days ago 0 replies      
>Why is the marginal student not drawn to study CS at a top school, and why would a top student not want to study CS at a non-top school, especially if he or she can find boot camps and MOOCs to bolster learning?

Because I'm not smart enough to get into MIT/Stanford/UCB/CMU?

hn094062 3 days ago 0 replies      
I tried pulling a CS-English double major in the 1980s. I loved programming, especially the then-new network programming. But the school I attended used the ACM CS Curriculum which pretty much required a math minor in addition, and the logistics didn't work for me (I ran out of money). I would have needed another three semesters just to meet the math requirements.

IIRC, I didn't particularly enjoy the actual CS classes, instead I'd spend hours playing with the Sun workstations and tinkering with how commands and code interacted. I could care less about Universal Turing Machines but became the defacto sysadmin for our tiny cluster. None of that counted as course credits of course.

euske 3 days ago 0 replies      
Here's my pet theory: when I try to put myself into an average high school student's shoes, they're already surrounded by all the CS achievements today; namely, video games and smartphones and Facebooks. They're exposed to them a bit too much. On the other hand, when I was a high school kid I didn't realize how CS is affecting our infrastructure and how many things are still unsolved. I guess this still applies to the current generation too. Combining these two, the field might look rather "finished" or "too competitive" to an average person, which could deter them from applying.
jondubois 2 days ago 0 replies      
Just like with Maths, I think that to effectively learn programming, you have to believe that you're good at it... Unfortunately, it has become harder for people to convince themselves of this because the tooling required to build simple software is much more complex than it used to be.

I think that new developers are exposed to more complexity earlier on and so they are more likely to get overwhelmed. It's not quite the slow-paced discovery process that it used to be. New developers have more visibility of the road ahead... And it's a damn long road.

lelandbatey 3 days ago 0 replies      
In case anyone would like a mirror, I've tried to save the page as best I can here: http://mirror.xwl.me/why-so-few-computer-science-majors/peop...

I seem to have the only working mirror which includes his graph, though the link to the original on his site is: http://i2.wp.com/danwang.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/bache...

SeanDav 2 days ago 0 replies      
Slightly OT:

Anyone notice the irony of this thread being right next to another HN thread titled: "As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating"?

k__ 3 days ago 0 replies      
Computer science has 2 parts many people consider hard.

Math and programming.

I was very bad at math, but I already learned programming in high school. This enabled me to do the programming classes without learning too much and put the saved time into math classes.

Also universities value students who are good at programming, because they are cheap labour for their projects. Seemed to me that only <50% of the students even wanted to do programming, so they had to think about other things to make the profs happy.

"Oh you will work for 3-6 months for me and all I have to do is let you graduate? I'm sold!"


sonabinu 3 days ago 0 replies      
One of the biggest factors that made me withdraw from CS was learning programming in high school. I had a teacher who wasn't able to communicate effectively and my own ego being bruised badly when I struggled and struggled to make code work. My second act more than a decade later gave me confidence with better teachers and internships where I saw even seasoned programmers make mistakes and develop multiple iterations before being done. This was an eye opener!
gozur88 2 days ago 0 replies      
I think it's a combination of a CS degree being slanted more toward research than preparation for a career as a software developer, and not everybody is cut out for it, temperamentally.

Particularly the latter. A lot of people break out in hives at the thought of spending the next forty five years glued to a computer monitor.

khyryk 3 days ago 0 replies      
This is just my experience, but I know that many people weren't enthused by the fact that computer science classes were absolutely packed with people. Obviously this depends on the school, but if class sizes of 200+ persist even after the first few intro courses, it'll whittle down the number of people pursing the major for a variety of reasons, such as poorer quality instruction and the inability of those who need a bit of help to get it as the line outside the TA's office is in the dozens.
jvanderbot 3 days ago 0 replies      
I work with electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, and mathematicians, and computer science students, all who program pretty darn well.

The programming is incidental to solving real world problems. If your job is to crank out code which envelops someone else's design solution, it doesn't really matter what courses you took in undergrad, as an undergrad education of any kind is just a very broad introduction to many things, in the hope that one will "stick" for employment.

gallerdude 3 days ago 1 reply      
Proud to be a freshman majoring in CS and also proud to be a nerd.
walshemj 3 days ago 0 replies      
Id disagree that CS or IT in General is "high" status even in the USA.

Just because a few 17/18 years olds think iphones are "kewel" does not mean that CS /IT / STEM jobs ae high status.

Take the UK no techie/stem leader gets the really high honours CMG KCMG, GCMG or as yes minester put it.

Bernard: Of course, in the service, CMG stands for Call Me God. And KCMG for Kindly Call Me God.Hacker: What about GCMG?Bernard: God Calls Me God.

ensiferum 3 days ago 0 replies      
Maybe it's because compared to the other scientific engineering jobs and curriculums software engineering as a job is like finger painting with feces.;-)
pbui 3 days ago 1 reply      
From my experience, the main reason for the low number of CS majors is simple: most students don't know what Computer Science is. At the university where I teach, half of the CS majors arrived on campus not knowing they would major in Computer Science simply because they didn't know what CS was. Only after taking a first year engineering sequence where they sample different aspects of multiple engineering disciplines do many of these students realize CS is an attractive and interesting field to study.

Moreover, I have taught a variety of introductory to computing courses to non-CS majors (ie. humanities and business) and what I've found is that a number of students (particularly women) really enjoy the computing classes and say they wish they had majored or minored in CS, but they didn't know what it was until they took the class. A few actually do switch into a computing related major afterwards, though not necessarily CS.

This may seem counter-intuitive, but while many people know how to use computers and technology, many people don't actually understand how it works. Because of this, Computer Science is a mystery to most people and so they don't consider it. This is in part why I am excited about the CS4All movement at the K-12 level... simply exposing Computer Science or computational thinking will go a long way in attracting more people to the major.

Alternatively, another reason why you don't necessarily see a growth in CS majors is because programming is not restricted to Computer Science. Most science and engineering disciplines involve programming now and many curriculums will have programming courses. This is even true in humanities (ie. digital humanities) and business (ie. data analytics) where coding is becoming a desirable skill. If you had a deep interest in say economics and needed to develop some programming skills to simulate models or evaluate data, you can gain these skills and knowledge outside of the CS major and I think that is a good thing.

With this in mind, I think a lot of CS departments will need to consider the shift from being a "destination" major to a "service" major where a significant portion of the teaching load is to non-CS majors who want a minimal core, but not all of CS. A flat growth in CS majors does not necessarily mean a lack of computing or programming education in general.

Finally, I would say that in my department, we have seen record growth in the past few years (from 50 a few years ago to 150) and that is caused a number of problems. This is not restricted to our university as noted in "Generation CS" from CRA:


So for us, the challenge for us is not growing the number of majors but how to manage the surge in a sustainable manner.

noobermin 3 days ago 0 replies      
A random meta-comment, this was actually a very good and reasoned piece here. I am have tired of blog posts that wax poetic about issues while relying on anecdata and intuition, while this piece actually looks at data and statistics. I've begun to avoid blogposts like this that discuss controversial topics because they often lack those things, but this didn't disappoint. Great job.
agjacobson 2 days ago 0 replies      
No attempt was made to measure the number of productive dropouts. I.e. authors bias was "count people with a degree."

Hypothesis, gedanken experiment. Award all hackers who are able to support themselves, not necessarily as developers, but having to do with computers, with a CS degree. The curve fills right in.

scandox 2 days ago 0 replies      
Because most intelligent people don't want to fight with configs, syntax and technical arcana. I think we should accept that there is a strange mix of intelligence and obtuseness common to the people that stay in this profession.
tobyhinloopen 2 days ago 0 replies      
I was rejected from college because I was too young. They told me to come back a year later.

I decided to apply for a programming job to earn some money and get back to college the year later. 8 years later... still didn't go back and no intention to.

mk89 2 days ago 0 replies      
One more reason is that... compared to many other disciplines (law, medicine, etc) you can find a job "just" by doing exercises and maybe with some open source contributions (or as a freelancer).
dboreham 3 days ago 1 reply      
Hmm. Perhaps because it tagtets a profession that just isn't that big, compared to dentists and doctors and accountants and lawyers. Almost every human needs one (each) of those folk. They don't generally need an algorithm expert.
foobar1962 3 days ago 0 replies      
Lookin at the graph of graduates and the dip in CS from 2005 for a few years, I'd suggest the cause is that the potential cs students skipped doing their degree and went straight into a startup.
smcg 2 days ago 0 replies      
Lack of good coding/CS classes in high school. We're still not good at it.

Introduction to CS class in high school was what got me hooked in the first place.

fulafel 3 days ago 2 replies      
What interesting things are going on in the field of CS from a scientific POV?
avenoir 3 days ago 0 replies      
Burnout, stress and health issues resulting from stationary way of life would have drove me away from CS 10 years ago had I known what I was getting into. It's a love-hate relationship for sure.
keithnz 3 days ago 0 replies      
I know a number of universities in NZ have non comp sci paths to programming careers through their engineering department. Maybe there's some course diversification going on?
atomical 3 days ago 0 replies      
I didn't want to take four years of calc and physics.
mbell 3 days ago 0 replies      
I still can't figure out why prospective developers go to school for computer science other than lack of better options. It's the equivalent of someone whom wants to go into civil engineering getting a degree in physics. It can certainly work, but it doesn't really line up with the end game. I guess it's mostly just the lack of computer engineering programs. But, most of those seem to be rather off base in terms of preparing developers as well.
matchagaucho 3 days ago 0 replies      
Learning the science behind how my guitar was made didn't make me a better player. But it was useful knowledge.
jorblumesea 3 days ago 0 replies      
You don't need a CS degree to do most run of the mill engineering work. It helps, but definitely not required.
devwastaken 2 days ago 0 replies      
One point I see missing: Colleges are inefficient, have poor quality of life, cost too much, and will not teach you the skills you need.

Financially, there is no way I could afford a CS degree today. People like to make the argument that its 'not much' because you'll get paid your entire tuitons worth in one year of work! But, thats not true for everyone. Infact its not true for many. Perhaps if you already live in silicon-valley-esque areas, maybe. But if you don't, Microsoft, Google and Amazon aren't waiting at the door for you. So what happens when you get a degree, and you don't get a 'good' job out of it right away? You probably end up in retail, putting away your entire paycheck into your tuition when you can't defer it anymore. Or, you get a low-paying 'tech' job that burns you out of the field.

But, even if you can afford it, can students go through with it? If any self-respecting developer went back to college now, after owning a house, having a family, y'know, a life, I think they'd drop out in the first few months, for what we would then count as perfectly understandable reasons. But for students, both colleges, and society, treat them like vessels without need for things like privacy and ownership.

Colleges play the game of forcing students into classes that have nothing to do with their majors. For example, speech classes. Yes, these are nice to have, but I am an adult, and I should be able to choose how I spend my money. In the system today, you are at the complete mercy of what the college tells you to do. Don't like it? Too bad. No warranty, no returns, its gone.

College tuition and overall living amenities are quite terrible in most locations. The state (public) university here charges the same amount as commercial apartments across the street, for a dorm room you share with another student that is smaller than your kitchen. Infact, only one building even has a kitchen, so you're stuck with your meal plans, which are during times when you have classes. Oh, also, if you miss a meal, you don't get that money back.

If you're a male, and want to live near the college, you are at a disadvantage for rent. Girls are more preferred for renting, to the point where these places are girls-only, are cheaper, and are the closest to the campus. Cheaper as in, a few hundred less than a dorm room, and you actually get your own room.

Add ontop that this college purposely built in fast-food restaurants, over-spend on decoration and marble counters for their cafeteria (and other places), have teachers with superiority complexes and are generally incompetent - I don't think its a bad choice to avoid that altogether. Even if you're working at Walmart for years in the cheapest apartments, its still most likely better living conditions.

If colleges actually wanted to invest in education, there are a million ways they could be doing that. Thats not to say that all colleges are like this, community colleges can be better at costs and what you need, but students are never told about any of this. They are given a list of options. "Pick one".

djsumdog 3 days ago 1 reply      
Anyone have an archived version? Looks like it's hosted on wordpress and the database got hammered.
bane 3 days ago 0 replies      
That's a really interesting chart. I'm "lucky" enough to have gone to school around the time of the first dot-com crash and remember the surge of people into CS around that time -- most looking for the kinds of huge paychecks for little work that were becoming legendary during that time period. It was surprisingly hard to find and connect with peers that were authentically interested in technology, computing and similar subjects.

After the dot-com crashes, and 9-11, and lots of the ridiculous paychecks dried up, people left the major in droves. I remember my university in particular went from having to turn away students from the CS major to having major recruiting events for CS in the span of just a couple years, with huge swings in faculty count and facilities.

One thing that really came out of all this I think, was a better understanding by the public that CS != programming major, and companies were looking for programmers. It was then perfectly acceptable to take an easier major that focused on programming and get the same job as the CS student who had to endure a much more difficult course load. There was also an effect in industry as people who endured even harder majors found they could simply make more money as programmers and had the mental tools to get up to speed rather quickly.

I remember distinctly at my school at least, that students self-sorted majors by perceived difficulty in a way not too dissimilar and not too much out of agreement with the famous xkcd "Fields Arranged By Purity" https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/purity.png

IIR the sorting went something like: any Liberal Art < any Soft Science < Information Technology < Information Systems < Biology < Software Engineering < Chemistry < Computer Science < Computer Engineering < Electrical Engineering < Physics < Math

My school peers all sort of used major as a badge of rank in social functions even though it was kind of useless and stupid. But I think it also connects to this chart, by all accounts I've heard, there's a vast oversubscription of Biology majors and the way the market handles this is to introduce more hoops or very very low pay. In other words, it's virtually impossible to get a great job as a biologist without getting a PhD in the field. Chemistry is similar. But the same isn't true in CS on up.

ericcumbee 3 days ago 0 replies      
My reason and why I went IT instead of CS was the amount of Math.
geebee 2 days ago 0 replies      
Great article. Thanks to Dan Wang for writing it.

My main difference in perspective with this article (I'm hesitant to call it a disagreement, because it's more a matter or perspective than any specific conclusion) is that I don't think people need to be consciously aware of market or societal forces and pressures to be powerfully influenced by them.

I think anyone who wonders why more people don't major in CS (as well as other fields claiming a "shortage") should read the chapter on pay and professions from Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations". I don't think they need to read it and accept it without critical thought, just be aware of the perspective - that there are a huge number of inter-dependent factors, other than pay, that powerfully influence the desirability of a profession.

Here's a link:


This is all pretty intuitive - if you want people to take on tedious, odious, or dishonorable work, you may have to pay them well.

I actually think CS, and programming, may be a more unpleasant profession than people recognize. Huge open offices, back visibility, SCRUM meetings that deny long term thinking and autonomy, constant technology churn, age-related employment issues, and, yes, specialized visas that mean employers can rely on captive employees who can't leave the field and have limited rights to leave their employer, all these things do mean that CS may be a much less desirable field for people with academic talent. Also - while wages are high, this may be the Silicon Valley effect. A job that pays an average of 120k, but plays this consistently in smaller, less expensive cities, may be more desirable than a job that pays 150k on average, but where 95% of the employment is concentrated in a place where the median price of a house is $1.2+ million.

Just for a dose or reality, a registered nurse in San Francisco earns more, at the median, than an application developer. That's a-ok by me! Nursing is a tough job. But if someone prefers to do good as a nurse and make more money than siting around fixing bugs in the latest javascript framework, come on, that's perfectly rational!

I really don't think young people need to have analyzed this to be influenced by it. There's a reason we call it the "invisible hand".

In short, if it is rational to avoid this field, that's probably enough to conclude that these are factors in deterring workers from it. I don't think you need to prove hyper-awareness specifically of these issues.

Keep in mind, people who are capable of learning to code and work in software development teams do have a high level of capacity for work and study. They have a lot of options. I'm not sure that software development, as a field, is all that competitive with the other things they can do.

In short, people may be behaving very rationally by avoiding this field.

apexkid 2 days ago 0 replies      
Haven't you been to India?
JDiculous 3 days ago 0 replies      
Here's why I switched out of a CS major in 2009 as a sophomore (to math) after being convinced that I'd major in CS since high school.

* Feeling that I can learn programming on my own, and wanting to experiment with something I wouldn't otherwise teach myself in college

Of course CS != programming, but in my head at the time I saw them as the same. I'd been teaching myself programming since I was a kid, and I knew I'd be able to teach myself whatever I needed to know if needed. Thus I felt that it made more sense for me to study something totally foreign to me that I wouldn't otherwise learn on my own.

* Fear of living out the rest of my life like the movie Office Space, everything being so damn predictable

This was before software engineering was considered "cool" or had any prestige. Being a software engineer and sitting at a desk all day in a gray cubicle writing enterprise software or whatever sounded boring as hell. As a socially awkward introvert with no other skills, I felt that majoring in CS would inevitably lead me down that comfortable but unfulfilling route, which frightened me. It wasn't just the fear of living a boring life, I just hated the predictability, knowing that I'd never be more than some boring code monkey with a decent salary (though not finance/doctor/lawyer money) and boring job (at the time I clearly knew absolutely nothing about entrepreneurship).

* Not feeling passionate about programming anymore, and feeling like I'd never be able to compete with all my classmates who are so damn passionate about it (and not caring anymore)

A lot of people in the field seemed to be super passionate about programming, coding all day and all night. I had gotten into it at 12 years old because I wanted to make video games, but as my interest in video games was receding, I realized I wasn't really as into it as I thought I was. I felt like there was no way I'd ever be able to compete with my competition who lived and breathed programming.

* CS is boring

This was a huge revelation for me. On one hand I loved programming and thought it was awesome that I could do what I considered fun and get school credit for it. But at some point I realized that although I love the programming part, I found the CS I was being taught mind-numbingly boring. I couldn't care less about sorting algorithms, binary trees, graph traversal algorithms, and most of the other abstract crap I was supposed to learn. I just didn't see why I had to know that stuff.

I've realized that I get super interested in this same material when the knowledge is directly necessary for something I'm trying to build, but otherwise I couldn't care less.

* CS is hard

I thought math was easier, which was honestly part of the reason why I switched to math. Given the obsession companies have on GPA, it was a logical decision.

* Fear of becoming like my classmates

I was a socially awkward introvert, and I wanted to be social and extroverted. I don't know how it is now, but at the time the CS department had the highest concentration of socially awkward introverted weirdos, not to mention the complete lack of women. I remember working in the CS lounge once and facepalming at cringey jokes. I didn't want to be around these losers lest I become one of them.

* Wanting to work on more important problems

I think the industry has a tendency of thinking that software engineering problems are the most important problems facing humanity right now.

For some reason I thought majoring in math would give me the toolkit to solve the most important problems in the world. Maybe I was too brainwashed by those movies where some genius in a flash of revelation scribbles some equation on a whiteboard.

* Wanting to make a ton of money

Software engineering money was good, but I didn't like how quickly and steeply the money topped out. I didn't want to enter an industry knowing that my compensation would cap out at $200k/yr (I don't think the tech giants were dishing out $300k/yr all-in comp packages to new grads back then, or if they were I wasn't aware). I wanted the sky to be the limit, which is why I became interested in finance (again, I wasn't aware of entrepreneurship at the time).


Of course going back I probably would've majored in CS because the interview process in the industry skews towards CS knowledge, and math eventually became boring and too abstract and isn't as relevant.

_Codemonkeyism 3 days ago 1 reply      
skybrian 3 days ago 0 replies      
Because: Error establishing a database connection.

(Seems to be back now.)

erikbye 2 days ago 3 replies      
Perhaps "very smart" was an incorrect assessment on your part.
letmein 2 days ago 1 reply      
MoonScript, a programmer friendly language that compiles to Lua moonscript.org
385 points by type0  3 days ago   160 comments top 18
leafo 3 days ago 14 replies      
Hey all, I made MoonScript about 6 years ago.

I used it to build a ton of opensource stuff in addition to the company I founded. I use it every day and I'm very happy with how it's turned out. I regret not updating the language more frequently, but I've been busy building a bunch of stuff in it.

The biggest open source project is a web framework for OpenResty: https://github.com/leafo/lapis

It's used for the following open source websites:https://github.com/luarocks/luarocks-sitehttps://github.com/leafo/streak.club

The company I made, https://itch.io also runs on it. There are a a ton of extra Lua modules I've made in MoonScript to facilitate it. Here's a list of my published modules: https://luarocks.org/modules/leafo

I've also completed Ludum Dare 11 times now, making a game each time in MoonScript. I've used https://love2d.org/ as the game engine. You can find the games on my GitHub: https://github.com/leafo?tab=repositories

Feel free to ask any questions

Cyph0n 3 days ago 1 reply      
This is one of @leafo's excellent projects. He has developed a web framework for MoonScript called Lapis. One of the cool things about Lapis is that it runs on top of OpenResty, which is a high performance web server for Lua applications. Lapis is production-ready: it runs his amazing game marketplace, itch.io.
jdonaldson 3 days ago 1 reply      
On a related topic, Haxe now compiles to Lua as well : https://haxe.org/blog/hello-lua/(disclosure : I'm the author of the lua target)

Back to moonscript/Lua, I've been super impressed with the YAGNI principals of the language. I was originally drawn to LuaJIT and its raw speed, but there's a lot of great things to say about the language and its community.

My goal is to write more Lua for smaller scripting purposes, and use Haxe/Lua for more complex projects, taking advantage of LuaJIT speed in both cases.

mtalantikite 3 days ago 7 replies      
Lapis + MoonScript + OpenResty looks like a lot of fun, so I was just starting to get a local environment running for it and immediately ran into the Lua 5.1 and 5.2+ divergence. For someone who has just been a casual observer of the Lua ecosystem over the years, can someone talk about the community's feelings towards that divergence? The OpenResty docs basically state it's not worth the effort to support anything but Lua 5.1, which at this point is 5 years old and no longer updated.

From someone on the outside that makes me hesitant to spend much effort investing in the ecosystem. Are the libraries fragmented across different versions too? Are there really no plans for an upgrade path, or does everyone just expect to use 5.1 forever?

weberc2 3 days ago 4 replies      
I understand that people love programming in classes, but I really want something like a stripped-down ES6. In particular, I want:

1. Lists and objects/dicts only; objects have no prototypes at all; objects have no first-class methods, but they can have functions as member variables, and those functions can close over other data in the object

2. All function and variable declaration is anonymous (as a consequence of 1); if you want to define a schema for an object, build a function that takes certain arguments and returns an object with the corresponding structure.

3. Coroutines/fibers/etc for async things; no promise/callback hell

4. Type annotations a la Python (not sure how this fits with 2 just yet)

EDIT: I did a bad job of emphasizing this, but syntax is important to me--I want something that looks like:

 var foo = { x: [1, 2, 3], y: (a, b, c) => { var sum = a + b + c; sum * sum }, }
Whether or not you agree that syntax should be a relevant criteria is a different matter. :)

fasterthanlime 3 days ago 1 reply      
moonscript powers the itch.io indie marketplace - the original announcement has a quick write-up: http://leafo.net/posts/introducing_itchio.html

After spending years working with Ruby or Java, it was a very nice change of pace. Lapis (leaf's web framework) is crazy good as well: it's easy to write fast code, see this article on coroutines: http://leafo.net/posts/itchio-and-coroutines.html

(disclaimer: I work there with Leaf!)

vortico 3 days ago 2 replies      
I love the syntax that Coffeescript-like languages are converging to, like Moonscript, tj's luna (https://github.com/tj/luna) and Pogoscript (http://pogoscript.org/). They fall way on the right of the "computer code vs. human code" spectrum, which is handy when writing applications as quickly as possible rather than focusing on fine details like implementation and performance. It's a shame I don't see it often in the wild, except for Atom and a few others.
yev 3 days ago 3 replies      
I find Lua itself very programmer friendly.
Pxtl 2 days ago 1 reply      
Some of the stuff in Moonscript feels a little overdone and magical, like parens-less function calls and the syntactically significant whitespace - but others really feel like they're fixing the gaps in Lua. Moonscript's nice lambda syntax, ternary operator, default local, implicit return, etc.

But I don't think I really needed the ! operator, for example.

PatentTroll 3 days ago 2 replies      
I was on a team that used Lua in production on tens of thousands of machines running 24/7. The Lua interpreter was the weak link in the system, requiring at least daily restarts. Squashed so many bugs over the years, and still found more and more all the time. What I'm saying is, the Lua interpreter itself is flawed and I can't imagine using it as a runtime if I had the chance to avoid it. That said, the language was fun and fast and got the job done. The interpreter could use some work.
partycoder 3 days ago 5 replies      
Adding superlatives to your stuff is, to me, just noise. e.g: "fast", "simple", "friendly", "lightweight".

I would rather provide conclusive proof, like some side to side comparison of features to illustrate how idiomatic MoonScript is supposedly friendlier than Lua.

Personally I think the changes are not necessarily in the right direction:

For example, what if you have a typo in a variable identifier when assigning a value to a variable? Now you have a new variable. Where to look for the definition of a variable? It depends on what runs first now. That's not friendlier. CoffeeScript made the same mistake in the name of simplicity and it quite frankly doesn't add any value. The time you saved typing "local" will be now consumed several times debugging and code reviewing... and you will have to pay more attention during your code reviews.

Then, removing braces and other delimiters. That's not necessarily better either. Let's remove lane delimiters from streets, traffic signals, stop and yield signs, and let's make it all implicit based on rules you can follow in your head. See? doesn't work.

koolba 3 days ago 2 replies      
"Moonscript is like CoffeeScript for Lua"

That's a very succinct description and from skimming the examples, quite apt.

But what I want is Typescript for Lua, specifically to use with Redis. That way I can define interfaces for my keys/values and have static checks on their usage.

nilved 3 days ago 0 replies      
Lua is a great language and MoonScript improves on it even further. I used MoonScript to write a load balancer with OpenResty recently, and World of Warcraft interface code six years ago. :)
shalabhc 3 days ago 0 replies      
Another Moonscript project is https://howl.io - an editor written almost entirely in Moonscript that runs on LuaJIT.
OriginalPenguin 3 days ago 3 replies      
Can this be used instead of Lua with Redis? Is there an example somewhere of that?
weberc2 3 days ago 1 reply      
How does MoonScript compare to Wren? https://github.com/munificent/wren
k__ 3 days ago 0 replies      

We need more programming languages with sane syntax.

nirav72 2 days ago 0 replies      
I wonder if this would work with NodeMCU development for esp8266 boards.
Ask HN: Who is hiring? (June 2017)
372 points by whoishiring  13 hours ago   616 comments top 519
pawanrawal 5 minutes ago 0 replies      
Dgraph.io (https://dgraph.io) | Backend Engineer, Golang | Sydney, Australia | ONSITE, REMOTE | Full time

You will be responsible for the design, architecture, and implementation of our native and distributed open source graph database, Dgraph (https://github.com/dgraph-io/dgraph).

Apply at https://boards.greenhouse.io/dgraph

mikebabineau 12 minutes ago 0 replies      
Second Measure (YC S15) | SF Bay Area (San Mateo, CA) | ONSITE (relo ok) | https://secondmeasure.com

Second Measure analyzes credit card data. We process billions of purchases to help investors (VCs and hedge funds) answer questions like:

 - How quickly is Shake Shack growing? - Is Lyft gaining or losing market share in Boston? - How does Hilton spending change after a customer's first Airbnb stay? - (Check out our research blog [1])
through an analytics platform we build in-house.

Were a 14-person team comprising mostly engineers and data scientists. 11 of us are technical, and 4 have PhDs. We love solving hard problems with compelling data.

Were looking for other strong builders, especially those who can grow into leadership roles:

 - Data Scientist (quantitative PhD preferred) - Data Journalist - Research Analyst - Software Engineer (frontend/backend/full-stack/data; mid-to-senior+) - (See our job board [2])
Competitive salary and substantial equity. We want our early team to have a large stake in our success.

Were in downtown San Mateo, just minutes from Caltrain and 101.

I'm a founder (mike@). Submit via job board and mention HN, or email jobs@ and CC me.

[1] http://blog.secondmeasure.com/

[2] https://boards.greenhouse.io/secondmeasure

pgollakota 14 minutes ago 0 replies      
Udacity | Lead & Senior Software Engineer, Lead Data Analyst, Senior Data Analysts/Scientists (2), (5 positions) | Mountain View, CA |FULL TIME | REMOTE, VISA


Come join us and help us meaningfully impact the lives of millions of students across the world. Udacity has about 25% of employees who work remotely including many engineers. We have a good culture of remote work; you won't be alone working remotely!

Lead and Senior Data Engineering

Do you a vision and ability to architect data infrastructure from scratch?Data @ Udacity is an small team but we have a lot of exciting challenges. We currently have one engineer on the team and are looking for two (or possibly three) more. The team also has 9 data analysts and a data scientist. Scope of work involves architecting and building data pipelines with tools such as Kafka, Kinesis, Redshift, Airflow etc. We are at the very early stages of engineering design so there's a lot of creative freedom.

- Knowledge of Kafka and Zookeeper. Experience with writing Kafka consumers and/or producers.

- Prior experience with AWS Redshift and/or PostgreSQL preferred.

- Knowledge of Linux, network and file system, and database level troubleshooting.

- Ability to manage, mentor, and grow a team

- Experience in Python/Java.

Lead and Senior Data Analysts/Scientists

- Ability to figure out, and use the right analytical techniques to discover insights from data.

- Sampling, A/B testing, bayesian methods

- Excellent knowledge of Pandas/Python (or R)

- Prior experience with data visualization and abilty to use the right visualization tools to tell the right data story.

- Lead analyst will lead a team of 4-5 data analysts and be a techincal mentor for all projects related to her/his area.

Please email praveen+hnjobs@udacity.com with your resume and/or questions

Fleming_1 24 minutes ago 0 replies      
EVERWISE | Senior Software Engineer, Head of UI/UX Design | Full Time, ONSITE | New York, NY

Everwise is continuing to grow our Engineering and Product teams here in our NYC office. We're currently focused on iterating and scaling out our SaaS offering, which has a number of different audiences, several complex features, and unique engineering challenges.

Senior Software Engineer - https://boards.greenhouse.io/everwise/jobs/513627#.WTDRrBPyu...

Head of UI/UX - https://boards.greenhouse.io/everwise/jobs/715136#.WTDbrxPyu...

Our tech stack includes React/Redux, React Native, Angular, Node.js, Ruby on Rails, AWS, Hadoop, Ansible, etc.

We would consider relocating the right candidate to NYC. Our Careers page: https://www.geteverwise.com/careers/

Please email stephen@geteverwise.com if any questions.

dismantlethesun 51 minutes ago 0 replies      
9Cloud (https://9cloud.us/) | Software Engineer (Full stack engineer or Frontend Dev) | UK/EU/Other (Fully Remote)

Full Time or ContractCompensation 18K 46K

If you love art, photography, and technology, then you're in luck. We're working on an adult-oriented social network, and fan-sites.

We are a 3-year-old company. We work with artists, publishers, and advertising agencies and as a full-stack engineer, you will be on the ground floor of a small but fast-growing company.



Building out 9Cloud web-apps using HTML/CSS/JS (React)Building out the backend for Python/Elixir

Some of the technologies we use are: Django, React, Elixir, Celery/RabbitMQ, Redis, Postgres, ElasticSerach

Any experience you have with those would be helpful, otherwise, we're sure you can pick it up along the way.

Reach out for a chat with us at admin@9cloud.us

weq 1 hour ago 0 replies      
RedRainCorp | Startup | RedView & other products | 80-120k | Sydney, Australia ONSITE OR part-time REMOTE

Description: You will be one of the first 10 hires of a company who is disrupting the law space. We have been growing rapidly over the last 3 years. Our products cross a range of platforms - HTML5/React/Typescript/Xamarin/C#/SQL Server/Rx/Event Sourcing

Apply if:1) You are fluent in spoken/written English. We are looking for a culture fit first and foremost.

2) Know C# and have a willingness to learn/reserve engineer/work autonomously but be part of close kit scrum team.

This is a true startup, you will be interviewed by founders just as your hands will get dirty across the stack.

We dont care if u dont know a library, we care that you get excited by the technology and by our angel investors (NOT VC) / founders who have grown successful law tech companies before.

Roles:-Senior C# 1x Backend focused (SQL/elasticsearch/ML focus)-Junior C# ^^^&-Senior C#/Typescript UI/UX focus-Junior C# ^^^

Contact: jcaptanis[AT@]redraincorp[dot]com[DOT]au with a few paragraphs on why we appeal to you and what you could bring to the company.Website: http://redview.com.au

Our process is short and sweet with NO HR involvement. Skype -> interview -> offer.

AntiRush 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Blackstorm | Engineer | SALARY: $140k - $220k | San Francisco Bay area (SF) | Tokyo, Japan | VISA REMOTE

Blackstorm is building the world's most advanced javascript game engine, among other cool products like an IDE (js.io) We are hiring senior engineers who can tackle architecture and APIs for our game engine on a small team of 3-4 folks. Blackstorm has raised more then $30M, and we have more than a million users per engineer at the company.

For flavor: our last project was to use redux as a server state timeline for 10M+ active players; before that we used code mods to port it from our propriety module and class system to es6. There are numerous projects coming up, such as first class typescript support to facilitate better tooling and API documentation, a facial tracking/AR engine, and a react-powered webgl-based UI system.

We have projects for hosted real-time multiplayer gaming, social gaming, cross-compilation to native platforms, and many other core infrastructure tools that we would welcome your support on defining and creating.

Our technologies engine have already been in front of tens of millions of users, and we're adding millions of new users monthly. This is a high leverage position, and very senior. We welcome remote for certain folks, because we're looking to build the best small engineering team in the world.

We are also actively looking for folks across range of leadership roles in product, engineering, and operations.

Please email keela@blackstormlabs.com

Subject: Blackstorm Engineering: YOUR NAME HERE

Please include a personal note about your background and interests so we can prioritize your application!

niallwingham 10 hours ago 2 replies      
Apsis Labs | Multiple Positions | Seattle, WA | REMOTE, http://www.apsis.io/jobs

We are a small design & development company working as a fully distributed team. We offer retirement and health benefits, a competitive salary, an unlimited vacation and parental leave policy, and a 20-hour work week.

We are hiring:

1. A full-stack software developer, with interest and experience in user interface design

2. A project/business manager, to help with various non- or semi-technical aspects of our business

We are committed to building a diverse, welcoming, and respectful workplace, and we encourage applications from all genders, races, ages, and backgrounds.

More details and application forms are at http://www.apsis.io/jobs.

navahq 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Nava | Infrastructure Engineers, Fullstack Software Engineers, Designers | Washington DC, San Francisco SF, New York NYC | On-site - Full-time | $100k-$160k+ + equity + benefits

We're a small team of engineers, designers, and product builders that were brought in to help fix Healthcare.gov in the winter of 2013. Our revamped application is used by millions, converts 35% better, and halves the completion time.

It turns out theres a lot more to reimagine within government services, which is why were partnering with both the Department of Veterans Affairs and Medicare. With the VA, we are working to modernize their appeals system, making millions of veterans lives better through the process. Today, the average appeal takes 5 years to process; we can fix this. For Medicare, we are designing and building the architecture for Medicare's historic transition towards value-based care.

Its surprising how much can be done by a small group of empathetic people with deep technical experience, working closely with dedicated civil servants in government. Weve started Nava as a public benefit corporation to radically improve how our government serves its people, and we believe that the services our government provides should be clear and reliable. If you feel the same way, we'd love to hear from you at jobs@navahq.com

Learn more about working here: http://navahq.com/careers

Job descriptions: http://jobs.lever.co/nava

andrest 9 hours ago 0 replies      
The Farmer's Dog | Software Engineer | New York | ONSITE, SALARY:90-140k, https://www.thefarmersdog.com/

The Farmers Dog is a VC backed direct-to-consumer pet health brand on a mission to disrupt the $60 Billion pet food industry. Our products are human-quality, personalized and manufactured on demand. Also, we just raised Series A ($8.1m) from Shasta Ventures.

Even though we don't sound like a typical tech company we take pride in software development. Were building a subscription based e-commerce business from the ground up and have plenty of interesting problems to solve. Our aim is to offer a seamless subscription experience through on-time production, customized products and best in class customer support. We have CI and CD processes in place, and make use of docker-based microservices via Iron.io. We have plenty of challenges to tackle from predictive analysis to optimizing fulfillment operations.

We're looking for a mid/senior Software Engineer who's comfortable writing backend code and dealing with docker and aws. Our stack is react (and redux), node, postgres, docker and aws.

If this sounds like you reach out at info+hn@thefarmersdog.com

smd4 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Douglas Lab at UCSF (http://bionano.ucsf.edu/) | Software Developer | San Francisco, CA | REMOTE SALARY:80k-120k

Our biomedical research lab is developing software tools for the nascent field of bionanotechnology. Our long-term goal is to develop targeted cancer therapeutics. To that end, we are learning to repurpose and engineer life's building blocks (DNA, RNA, proteins) to create atomically precise nanostructures that self-assemble into prescribed shapes and devices.

We are seeking a full-time software developer to help extend our computer-aided design tool Cadnano (http://cadnano.org/) with several new features, in particular, 2D and 3D views for designing biomolecules as well as integrating structural data derived from cryo-EM and molecular dynamics simulation. Experience with PyQt and 3D CAD/CAM preferred.

We work at the interface of molecular biology, biophysics, and computer science. Biology knowledge is not required, but the position offers an excellent opportunity to learn about biotech, synthetic biology, and related disciplines.

Apply at https://goo.gl/forms/ZeZxikT8YtZ5Xfj92

timols 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Aconex | San Francisco, CA USA, Melbourne, Australia| Full-time | Senior Software Engineer, Senior UI Engineer | ONSITE | $120k-$175k

Aconex is a highly profitable project collaboration company with most of the worlds largest construction companies as customers. We are to construction projects what Atlassian is to software projects.

We're looking to build a team of experienced software developers to help us bring a new product to market with a strong financial aspect. Our stack is based on a service oriented architecture, so we have a number of different technologies at play - Java, Go, Ruby, Python etc. To begin with, you'll be working with Java 8 (using Dropwizard), Angular, Typescript as well as many other tools.

Love to chat stack, so if you're interested - reach out!Technology choice is open for discussion on new services that we start.

More about us: https://www.aconex.com If you're interested, email me at timols(at )aconex( dot)com

dannyyu92 57 minutes ago 0 replies      
Shipt | San Francisco CA, Birmingham AL | Full-time | Onsite

Are you passionate about software development, sharing knowledge, growing your skills, and working with great people? The Shipt engineering team is growing, and we are looking for extraordinary engineers who enjoy building as much as we do. So if you self-directed, enjoy autonomy in your work, and you are an excellent participant in a team, come join Shipt.

Shipt, the nations fastest-growing online grocery marketplace, simplifies the grocery shopping experience by providing members with unparalleled convenience and exceptional service. Shipt partners with leading retailers and local stores to deliver groceries to members via a community of friendly shoppers.

We are currently hiring for:

* Software Engineer (Go/Golang/Ruby/Rails/NoSQL/Postgres especially, but we use many technologies)

* Senior Search Engineer

* Database Administrator

* Ionic/Angular Developer

We are in the process of moving our Rails apps to a more scalable microservices architecture using Golang so if you have experience with or have an interest in SOA, microservices, and/or distributed architectures, we'd especially love to talk!

If you're interested, please check out our open positions at https://www.shipt.com/careers/openings/

ylere 9 hours ago 3 replies      
1aim | Berlin, Germany | Onsite, Full Time, Visa https://1aim.com

At 1aim, we develop and produce access control systems, which allow to open doors with mobile phones. We create all hardware, software and IT-Infrastructure to run our systems on our own. Beside access systems we are already putting a lot of R&D effort in creating further new smart home/building automation products. We see ourselves as an engineering-driven technology company, that influences how a future with connected devices will look.

We enable engineers to focus on what they can to best, letting them work on new products in small, highly interdisciplinary teams. We try to get rid of as much management overhead as possible (no daily standup meetings!).

Right now, we are hiring new engineers for the following areas:

- RUST Backend Developer (our backend is 100% rust!)

- (Frontend) Web Developer

- Electrical Engineer

We do not care about your academic degrees or where you are from, but about the stuff you did and what you could create in the future given the right opportunities. If you are interested in working at 1aim, write us an email at work.hn<?>1aim.com and tell us about the projects you worked on that you are the most proud of and which technological feats of the past inspire you. We provide visa assistance, relocation support and free housing until you find your own place to live.

Interview process: 1st phone interview (screening) -> 2nd phone interview (technical) -> home assignment/technical challenge (depending on application) -> 3rd interview (mixed, via phone or onsite)

oncojacob 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Oncora Medical | Lead Engineer | Philadelphia, PA | FULL TIME, ONSITE, SALARY: $110k-$160k, oncoramedical.com

- Lead Engineer

- Security Engineer

- Customer Solutions Manager/Engineer

Oncora Medical is building datadriven clinical decision support tools for radiation oncologists. Our stack utilizes state-of-the-art data aggregation pipelines to integrate clinical data, radiation treatment data, and patient outcomes data. Our research team works directly with clinicians to develop accurate, interpretable predictive models of clinical events. We present this information to physicians through intuitive and interactive visualizations that help them make smarter, more confident clinical decisions. If you want to work on software that solves a real clinical need and directly helps cancer patients, Oncora is the place for you.

Apply online at http://oncoramedical.com/careers

djeezi 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Innovate42 | Front-end Engineer | London, UK | Onsite, Full-Time | 32-40k + 1-2% equity | innovate42.com

Our mission is to help companies consistently deliver outstanding customer service. We achieve that by delivering a unified platform for product, order and subscription management in Salesforce. We currently focus on media companies - The Economist is a paying customer. The founders are ex-GoCardless (YC S11) and Zuora.

We utilise the Lightning Aura framework, Salesforces most recent open source component framework designed to deliver dynamic multi-platform web applications. Lightning uses JavaScript on the client side and looks very similar to React. Check out the Aura framework https://github.com/forcedotcom/aura or give it a try yourself https://trailhead.salesforce.com/modules/lex_dev_lc_basics.

Were looking at hiring our first front-end engineer to start scaling our platform. Youll work with Daniel, our Chief Architect & cofounder. Why you should join:

- You want to shape the product of a small bootstrapped startup

- You like enterprise software

- You like customer feedback

Position offer 32-40k + 1-2% equity. Flexible working hours and great equipment. Interested in chatting? Email hello@innovate42.com.

tonydiv 10 hours ago 0 replies      
BlockSchool | Kids Coding Instructors | REMOTE ONLY

Description: BlockSchool is the 1st online coding school for kids ages 7+, and we teach students in 3 countries (US, China, and India). We are hiring young teachers from top 100 US colleges who are (1) AMAZING with kids, (2) engineers (don't need to be a software engineer though), and (3) available to teach 10 hours per week. Each class is scheduled, 40 minutes long, and requires a stable Internet connection.

Our curriculum combines Puzzle, a Scratch-like language, with a 3D block world similar to Minecraft. While in alpha, we use Code.org and Scratch too.

*Pay is $30 per hour, and some equity, even though you won't be a full-time employee.

Here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApjTV1iseHE&t=5s

Technologies: You must be extremely comfortable teaching/using Scratch mainly. Certain advanced students will require you to know JavaScript too.

Contact: tony[AT@]block[dot]school

Website: http://block.school

anamexis 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Verba Software | Software Engineer | San Francisco | ONSITE, SALARY:100-150k | https://www.verbasoftware.com/

Verba Software tackles textbook affordability through radical transparency. We work with more than 350 colleges and universities of all sizes to reach over 3.1 million students each term, with software for students, professors and bookstores. Our success means we need to grow and were looking for talented engineers. We work in a beautiful exposed-brick office two blocks west of Union Square in Downtown San Francisco. We are a small, open and friendly company. We currently use Ruby, Javascript, ES6 and Coffeescript, and layer on Rails, React, Backbone, Node, MySQL, AWS, and Chef, but were always open to using the best tech.

Please email a cover letter and resume to jobs@verbasoftware.com . Our process is: 1 hour culture and technical phone screen -> 4 hour on-site interview -> offer.Thanks!

spongeit 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Tesla | Data Engineers, Full Stack Engineers, Data Scientists, SREs | Palo Alto, CA | Full-time, ONSITE

Did you know we crunch data here? Data is deeply embedded in the product and engineering culture at Tesla. We rely on data lots of it to improve autopilot, to optimize hardware designs, to proactively detect faults, and to optimize load on the electrical grid. We collect data from each of our cars, superchargers, and stationary batteries and use it to make these products better and our customers safer.

In the Fleet Analytics team, we process TBs of data a day from these devices. We are looking for excellent people to fill out our team. Our platform and services support the entire company from Manufacturing to Engineering to Service.

Our tech stack includes Python, Java, Hadoop (Hive, HBase, Impala), Spark, Kafka, RabbitMQ, Kubernetes

Apply at

Data Scientist - https://www.tesla.com/careers/job/data-scientistfleetanalyti...

Data Engineer - https://www.tesla.com/careers/job/data-engineerfleetanalytic...

SRE - https://www.tesla.com/careers/job/site-reliabilityengineerfl...

Software Engineer - https://www.tesla.com/careers/job/software-engineerfleetanal...

fortysixpercent 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Replicated | Backend Engineer | $120k - $150k + equity | Los Angeles + SF | https://www.replicated.com

Replicated is developing tools for deploying modern enterprise software. We are looking to connect with backend developers with Golang experience and people interested in pushing the capabilities of Docker, Kubernetes and Swarm.

The Backend Engineer role will be working on the core of our product.

In this role you'd be working closely with an experienced team. We have openings for a wide range of experience levels. So if you are passionate about what we're working on you could be a great fit.

We're also hiring a Solutions Architect, Support Specialist and Front End Engineer. Feel free to reach out about those roles as well.

Email: austin (at) replicated (dot) com

ethanjdiamond 1 hour ago 0 replies      
98point6 | Fulltime | Mobile Developer (iOS and Android) | Seattle, WA | www.98point6.com

98point6 is building the next generation of primary care by changing the relationship between healthcare and technology. By uniting leading-edge data science with Board Certified Physicians we are working to make primary care more convenient, accessible, and affordable. As we grow, you will have room to grow alongside us and impact the future of healthcare.

Your role and impact

As a Mobile Software Engineer, you will collaborate with a small tight-knit mobile team to help architect and develop out a mobile client to connect patients with doctors in a streamlined, meaningful way. You will work with our team of data-scientists, doctors and designers to create the best product we can make; and you will be surrounded by people who are smart and passionate about both our social and technical missions.

We'd prefer developers who have worked with Swift/Kotlin, but are open to anyone with experience and a desire to learn.


aurelianito 12 hours ago 1 reply      
I am up-voting the messages that explicitly tell a salary or salary range. Would you like to join me?
arjenschat 13 hours ago 0 replies      
Cliperado | Senior Engineers | Amsterdam | FULL TIME , ONSITE, SALARY: 48k-60k, cliperado.com- Senior backed engineer- Senior frontend engineer

Cliperado is looking for great engineers, who also like to think about why and what they are building and iterate over the solution a couple of times to make something that actually makes sense, both from a user and from a technical point.

So the pitch goes something like this: (needs some work though)

If youve ever created an online service, you know how much work it is to put screenshots in your documentation. You know it makes your service way easier to understand, reduces your churn and even increases signups. But it is just too much manual labor to keep the shots up to date.

We are creating a solution to fix this and it is coming along pretty nicely.

Our stack includes PHP, Python, VueJS, MySQL, Docker, Selenium, Browser Extensions, Bugs, Performance Issues and a sense of humor.

If you have any questions or you are interested - Please reach out to me arjen@cliperado.com

justboxing 13 hours ago 1 reply      
Hi, I'm manually curating the VISA OK i.e. Work Visa / Work Permit Sponsorship Jobsin this thread and posting them at


The vast majority of employers aren't strictly adhering to @xando's regex and I've come to terms with manually curating and posting the VISA OK Jobs 1 by 1 for now.Please bear with me -- all VISA OK Jobs listed here will be listed on http://visaok.in/ in about 2 to 3 days.

If you are a job seeker looking for a WORK VISA, feel free to let me know what you'd like to see on the site.

Also let me know what challenges you face when applying for a VISA OK job?

email: theblogdoctor @ gmail

- Shiva

nickbracko 12 hours ago 0 replies      
NearSt | Senior Full Stack Developer | London, UK | Full-time | ONSITE | 40k-60k

Our mission is to get people all around the world back into high street shops.

Today our site and app lets you shop from over 100 quality high street retailers for 1-hour delivery or click&collect in London.

We love building interesting things in JavaScript. We take a dash of React, a pinch of Redux and sprinkle it over NodeJS APIs. It's then thrown into a Docker container and baked in Codeship CI for a few minutes until it comes out in Kubernetes all golden brown. We're deploying something unique so we're always keen to stretch our technology for it to give us more.

We're looking for a Senior Full-Stack Developer to join our team. More details are available at https://near.st/careers, or email careers@near.st

antoviaque 9 hours ago 0 replies      
REMOTE (Worldwide) - Open Source Developer on Open edX - Python/Django, Javascript (OpenCraft - Remote/worldwide company based in Berlin)

Development specialized on the free software project Open edX, used by many universities and companies to run online courses. See edx.org, stanford.edu or fun-mooc.fr for examples of Open edX instances. We are a team of thirteen senior developers, working remotely from Europe, North America, Asia, Russia & Australia. The company is not affiliated with edX, but contributing and working with them on various projects. This is a full time position, were you would be able to work remotely from where you want, as long as you have a good internet connexion. : )

It's a large Python/Django codebase, with good code standards and architecture (a lot of the edX engineers come from MIT). You would work on different clients contracts using the platform. The clients list/references include Harvard, edX themselves, the French government, and various startups & universities currently running their own instances, or looking to create one. Tasks are varied, from developing developing core platform features, custom exercises and tools for specific courses (XBlocks), customizing and deploying instances, working on both client/server sides, etc.

Most of your work is published as free software (Open edX is released under the AGPL license, which requires clients to release modifications under the same license), and you would also contribute to the free software project, pushing some of your developments upstream through pull requests, contributing features, documentation or help on mailing-lists.

Stack: Python/Django, Ansible, AWS/OpenStack, Debian/Ubuntu, JS, HTML/CSS, MySQL, MongoDB

Interview process: a 30 minutes Hangout with a (simple) coding exercise.

To apply, fill this form: http://opencraft.com/jobs/open-source-developer/

majogu 12 hours ago 0 replies      
FreeAgent, Edinburgh and REMOTE (UK-only)


At FreeAgent we help freelancers and micro-businesses be more successful by putting them in control of their company finances.

We have built an award-winning online accounting product that offers full end-to-end compliance, from time tracking to tax return filing. We're based in beautiful Edinburgh and we're growing from strength to strength with over 52,000 paying customers and strong YoY growth. Our NPS is off the charts (72!) - customers love what we do!

We're a growing team of over 130 people, and recently became a public company listed on AIM ($FREE.L). The majority of our team are based in Edinburgh but we have staff distributed across the UK. If you want to help us make small businesses awesome at doing their finances, we're have great opportunities in our product and engineering team. Our stack is currently Ruby/Rails, JavaScript, React.js, MySQL, RabbitMQ, Elasticsearch.

Here's a condensed list of current vacancies in our engineering organisation:

* Senior Data scientist

* Full-stack engineers

* Senior operations engineer

You can apply directly via the website https://www.freeagent.com/company/careers or feel free to get in touch with me directly: maria [at] freeagent [dot] com.

(We are looking for UK-based full-time staff only right now)

johnumbaugh 9 hours ago 1 reply      
CareEvolution | Software Dev | Ann Arbor, MI | ONSITE, REMOTE, VISA, https://www.careevolution.com/

What we do actually matters.

It's estimated that 250,000 people die in America annually because of medical errors. That makes it the #3 cause of death, just behind heart disease and cancer (http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/05/03/47663618...). This is a major societal catastrophe - and it needs to be fixed. Part of the solution is the long-overdue modernization of our nation's health IT infrastructure. This is CareEvolution's mission - to create better patient outcomes by modernizing - and connecting - our health IT systems.

There are many interesting things to do at CareEvolution, including mobile, web, platform, integration, devops, analytics, ETL... and lots more. This is a place where you help define what it is you want to do, and how to help the world.

We're a small team - still under 100 people (and all technical!) - but our platform manages health data for over 130 million people.

Check out our job listing at https://talent.stackoverflow.com/employer/jobs/50383/listing

Visit our website at https://www.careevolution.com/

Submit resumes to resume@careevolution.com

fblp 48 minutes ago 0 replies      
Zenbooth | Fulltime | Business Analyst | Berkley, CA (Bay Area) | www.zenbooth.co

We're making phone booths, and we're one of the fastest growing manufacturing operations in the bay area. We're still running a lot of our operation of pen and paper and we're looking for an individual who can help us digitize the operation. For example, we need to build and monitor a system that tracks each part of a product moving through the line.

This is a great opportunity for someone with strong analytical skills and a hunger to build pragmatic solutions.

Contact jobs@zenbooth.co if you're interested

bgriggs1 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Knack | Frontend Developer/Designer| Remote | REMOTE https://knack.com

We're a 100% remote company that has been 100% remote from the beginning and spends a lot of time thinking about how a small 100% remote team can build a world class product. We're 100% remote.

We're looking for a frontend to help design and build the next generation of tools for displaying and managing data. You'll also help migrate our backbone framework to a modern component-based approach (Vue/React).

Knack is a no-code application platform that enables anyone to easily build business and workflow apps. It's a big fun product that creates tons of value.

Other things about us: we're 100% bootstrapped, so we know how to build a product customers will pay for. We believe in growth without compromise, not growth at all costs. We don't have a VP layer or management, and want to keep it that way as long as we can.

Other things about you: you want to join a team that actually enjoys working with each other. You want to be engaged with the product and company beyond just code. You are not afraid of taking ownership and responsibility. You want to maximize your impact.

Find out more at https://knack.com/work-at-knack

seanhirata 13 hours ago 0 replies      
Contrast | Lead Engineer | Cambridge, MA | Salary: $90k-110k, Onsite

Contrast is an incubating business at Cogo Labs (https://www.cogolabs.com/). Were working on a budgeting tool at SmartSavings.io to tackle a huge problem: nearly half of Americans have less than $400 in savings.

Were looking for a engineer to lead the development of this product. Youd be the tech lead on the ground floor of a new company, but with the support (design, infrastructure, comp/benefits, mentorship) of Cogo Labs, an established incubator.

For more information and to apply, visit https://www.cogolabs.com/careers/bbc84b24-951f-4ad4-bdde-ecb... or reach me at shirata@cogolabs.com

katyi 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Top Hat | www.tophat.com/careers | Toronto, ON, Canada | ONSITE Full-time

Top Hat is hiring!! We are looking for smart software engineers to join our team. Some of the roles we have available are: Android Lead, DevOps Engineer, Platform Lead, and Full-stack Web developer (Python, Django, Javascript, React.js/Flux, AWS, Ansible). Salary ranges based on experience from $80K to $130K.

Were a pretty awesome growth-stage startup in the education space - we make the classroom more interactive, fun and engaging for both students and professors. We raised our Series C round in order to take on the textbook industry, which you can read about here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-15/top-hat-r.... - Union Square Ventures joined us this round, who along with our previous investors make up some of the top VCs in the world (having funded companies like Kickstarter, Twitter, Shopify, Salesforce, Box.net, etc.).

Top Hat helps professors make every lecture count by transforming mobile devices into powerful engagement tools, inside and outside the classroom. Recently, Top Hat has been building out interactive textbooks and creating a way for professors to collaborate on authoring new content and sharing it through our marketplace. In summary, we have a great dev culture and some really cool problems to work on!

Were also running a Hack && Tell community event on June 20thcome see some cool tech demos and say hi! https://www.meetup.com/Toronto-Hack-and-Tell/events/23965045...

If you are interested in our open positions apply here: https://app.jobvite.com/j?bj=oqatYfwL&s=hn

pdelbarba 53 minutes ago 0 replies      
Sporian Microsystems | Boulder/Lafayette CO | Full-time | Onsite

Currently looking for an embedded software engineer for various ARM microcontroller projects. Small team, Linux/Make/GCC/Git stack, lots of variety in projects (gov contracts that usually last between 6mo and 2yr but you tend jump between them)

Basic requirements are solid background in C and some embedded experience (ARM, MSP430, etc.)


brian at sporian.com

steve-mushero 1 hour ago 0 replies      
OpsStack | Lead SaaS Engineer | Bay Area | ONSITE | Full-time | OpsStack.io


OpsStack is unifing the Cloud / On-Line operations world, helping Ops, DevOps, SRE, and SysAdmin teams finally get control of their new chaotic & dynamic world. Our job is to build the full-stack, full-lifecycle tools that drive their world.

Responsibilities: - Driving every aspect of OpsStack's continued development- Architecture, processes, tools- Deployment, security, standards, and much more- Current codebase is a world-class PHP-Laravel, React, and Python of considerable complexity and modularity.

Requirements: - Several years software development experience, at increasingly senior levels. - Ideally in SaaS, IT, and Cloud. - No specific degree nor university- We are looking for boys and girls who can roll up their sleeves- Combine both a vision of what is needed with nitty-gritty work of producing world-class products.

- Experience managing Linux Systems & AWS/Azure cloud resources at some level.- Must believe in testing, MVP features, and iterative design & implementation. - Must believe in doing things right, but also in making tradeoffs

- Must have serious experience in PHP web apps in general, and ideally Laravel, Symfony, etc.- Must have serious JS experience, especially with frameworks, ideally with React.

To apply, please send your resume and an overview of why this is the role for you. We strongly encourage a diverse workforce & a wide pool of applicants - we are everything-friendly.

Send to: Jobs (at) OpsStack.io

ericzundel 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Square, Inc. | Software Engineer | Payments | Atlanta | Onsite | https://squareup.com/careers/jobs

Square's Atlanta office is hiring for multiple positions. We have several full-stack engineering teams in the office building features for our Point of Sale system as well as backend services that power our payments platform. I am the hiring manager for our payments infrastructure team where we are building a next generation payments platform.----What we do:Develop and support routing and gateway support between Squares products and payment processors in the US and abroad.----Why it's cool:Our system is critical: without it, some Square products couldn't exist.Our Atlanta office has a history of working on mission critical projects. Infrastructure used throughout Square was designed and developed here. Were continuing to increase our footprint here.Our work environment includes lots of Silicon Valley style perks, plus all the advantages of working in a smaller office where everyone knows each other.Square products are widely used by the general public, so you constantly run into people who use our products.----Who we're looking for:

Engineers familiar with Java, Go, or Ruby or another high level OO language.We are looking for candidates with industry experience. Experience with Card Payments is a plus.----Tech we use: Java, Go, Ruby, Objective-C.----If this matches your background and interests, we'd love to talk to you -- email zundel@squareup.com.

theatrus2 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Lyft is hiring Infrastructure Engineers in both Seattle and San Francisco, including the Observability, Provisioning and Core Datastores team.

Lyfts Infrastructure engineers are responsible for building the systems and tools that make our teams productive and the technology stack that powers the applications our customers use every day. We believe standing up a healthy service should be fast, standardized, and intuitive. We can run Lyft on our laptops on the first day. We can ship code to our customers continuously. Were empowered to use tools and technologies that provide the Lyft community with the best possible experience.

I'm specifically looking for candidates who love monitoring, logging, aggregation, time series databases, or similar large scale systems for the Observability team at Lyft. We process billions of events per second all to show how Lyft is working in real time, helping engineers at Lyft debug and build world class services and applications.

The provisioning team is responsible for the systems which mange our core operating system, scale-outs, and container based development environment. You'll be responsible for managing Docker, images, and cloud provisioning environments using a mix of open source and in-house technology.

The core datastores team is looking for experts in traditional and cloud databases as well as caching systems.

Feel free to reach out to me at yramin@lyft.com or at @theatrus on Twitter if you have any questions!

martinshen 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Volkswagen | Product Manager | Auburn Hills, MI (Detroit-ish area) | Onsite | $70-$110K

I recently moved from the San Francisco to Detroit to join Volkswagen (I know, crazy). We're starting to build products and services based on the connected car. Think IoT, data science, insurance and mobility services. I'm building a small team of product managers to bring these services to production.

Looking for entrepreneurial-minded people who can own a product line end to end (business development, product design and other cross-functional skills needed).

Email me at martin.shen@vw.com and we can set up a call.

Raphomet 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Lob | YC S13, YC Continuity | Senior Software Engineer | Full Time, ONSITE | San Francisco, CA

Our first API was to programmatically send physical mail. Our second, announced just yesterday (https://venturebeat.com/2017/05/31/ycs-continuity-fund-leads...), is CASS-certified address verification. Our long-term goal is to provide the building blocks for developers to automate the offline world through APIs.

I'm the head of engineering at Lob. In between my last job and this one, I spoke to 42 organizations before I found what I was looking for in Lob: an exceptional team at the beginning of its growth phase, and also a company with a track record of being deliberate about its culture and which is intentionally building a good place to work.

We are a small and mighty engineering team with a ton of product and infrastructure problems to solve as we keep pace with rapid growth. So, we're currently looking for experienced software engineers who can take ownership of entire projects. We hate contrived interviews, so our process rewards practical problem solving (based on real problems we've faced) and excellent communication.

Apply at https://lob.com/careers or drop me a line at raph@lob.com if this intrigues you!

lwakefield 12 hours ago 1 reply      
Tictail | Software Engineers | NYC, New York and Stockholm, Sweden | Full-time | ONSITE

We here at Tictail are building the world's most used and loved ecommerce platform. Tictail was founded five years ago in Stockholm, Sweden, where the platform was built from the ground up to support independent brands across the world in running their business. Since then Tictail has built a marketplace to support our brands, opened an office in NYC and grown to support hundreds of thousands of brands and millions of products.

Our frontend is built on top of React, Express and Webpack where we work hard to stay on the bleeding edge. Our backend is largely written as Flask services in Python where we use technology like PostgreSQL, ElasticSearch, Redis, nginx, HAProxy, and Chef. Everything runs on top of AWS. Above all, we value the right tool for the job.

Who we are looking for:

* You are comfortable moving across, up, down, in and out of the stack - but we don't expect you to be a specialist in everything

* You take pride in your work but care most of all about getting your code in front of users

* You care about building something real something that helps people all over the world grow their own business from their passion

We are hiring for the following positions:

* iOS Engineer (STO)

* Senior Backend Engineer (STO)

* Growth Engineer (NYC)

tombenner 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Entelo | San Francisco, CA | Full-time | Onsite

Entelo uses huge amounts of data and predictive analytics to help companies build great teams. Our ~20-person engineering team uses technologies like Ruby, Golang, JavaScript, React, Kubernetes, Docker, Kafka, Spark, and Redshift, and we already have customers like Facebook, Tesla, and Paypal. We ingest and parse up to 2 TB of social profile data per day, predict when people will change jobs, match people to jobs, and more.

We care deeply about promoting diversity in tech and being pleasant, collaborative folks; we were recently ranked as the #3 Best Place to Work by Glassdoor among small and medium companies. Join us as we continue to grow very quickly and discover new ways to merge machine learning, big data, and full-stack engineering to provide value to our customers!

We're hiring for many roles including:

* Senior Data Scientist

* Senior QA Automation Engineer

* Senior Software Engineer

* Software Engineer

* Senior Product Manager

If you're interested, check out our open positions at https://www.entelo.com/careers, or feel free to email me directly at tom at entelo dot com.

simonswords82 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Atlas - Clever Software | .Net developer | Essex, UK | Onsite, Full-Time | 32-40k | https://www.atlascode.com

We create clever software applications for clients in complex domains. Our experienced UK-based team work in hand with customers to provide simple yet incredibly effective software solutions. We also have a range of SaaS products we own, develop and market including www.staffsquared.com and www.fundipedia.com.

We use the latest Microsoft technologies and we're always looking for talented .Net developers to join our team.

What we're looking for:

Experience in web development, specifically C# and associated tech a bonus such as jQuery, SQL, HTML etc. Candidates with experience in other languages will be considered.

Strong communication skills

Excellent problem solving skills

Ability to work well as part of a team

Eye for detail and identifying problems and solutions

At least 3+ years relevant commercial experience

Self-motivated, able and open to learning and professional development

We use only the best equipment and we're powered by some of the best people in the business. If you're interested email hello@atlascode.com with your information and a CV.

No agencies please!

theshawalker 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Meteor Development Group | Open Source Engineers, Back-end Engineers, Front-end Engineers | San Francisco, CA | Full-time, Onsite and Remote

Back-end Engineers: Build the foundations and APIs of our tools for GraphQL and JavaScript developers. You'll have the opportunity to learn and use the most cutting edge technologies as you help shape and deliver the components that make up our commercial cloud services, Optics and Galaxy. You will work with a team of talented engineers to build performant and scalable services in modern languages like Kotlin and Go.

Front-end Engineers: Design and owns new features for our commercial products, Optics and Galaxy, and our open source projects, Apollo and Meteor. You will be helping to develop the best practices of front-end engineering with a team that has a history of pioneering JavaScript tech.

Open Source Engineers: If you like doing the things above AND attending & speaking at conferences, writing blog posts and teaching people about the latest developer tools, you might be interested in joining our open source team.

If you're wondering what GraphQL and Apollo are all about: https://dev-blog.apollodata.com/

Our job site: https://www.meteor.io/jobs/

predman_mat 12 hours ago 0 replies      
MarketAccessTransformation | http://www.marketaccesstransformation.com | Cambridge, UK | REMOTE (Europe) | Full-time | Python/Django/PostgreSQL/Angular | Junior and Senior Full Stack Developers | 30-50k

Market Access Transformation revolutionizes the way advice is exchanged between healthcare stakeholders including payers, manufacturers, and the investment community.

I am looking to strengthen the technical team which develops the RPR platform in-house. In the short-term, we will be using Python, Django and PostgreSQL on the back-end, Javascript and AngularJS on the front-end, all deployed on AWS.

Initially, we are recruiting for 2 positions:

* Junior full-stack developer

* Senior full-stack developer

Interview process consists of: short coding test (should take no more than 1 hour); 30-minute remote interview; 60-minute remote or face-to-face interview, depending on location. I have hired successfully from Hacker News before.

We have ambitious plans to grow quickly in an environment where data is sensitive, so any experience of scaling, security and robustness would be helpful. Any experience of start-ups would also be useful. For more information, please visit https://marketaccesstransformation.com/careers/

Feel free to contact me with any questions. predman at marketaccesstransformation... etc.

olavgg 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Boost AI | Multiple Positions | Stavanger, Norway | full-time | ONSITE | http://boost.ai

We have created a virtual assistant for the European finance sector. Our virtual assistant understands over 1600 intents related to banking and insurance, and it understands most of the nordic languages plus english and spanish. We are a young company that just celebrated one year with a team of 25 people, 18 of them has been hired this year.

Our tech stack is Java, Grails, Python, Flask, Vanilla Javascript, HTML5, Canvas, PostgreSQL, Lua, Torch, Linux and AWS.

AI trainers: Help training our virtual assistant in new languages and domains.Salary: 425000-475000 NOK + Bonus

Junior developers: Front-end, back-end, SQL, API's, infrastructure.Salary: 425000-600000 NOK + Bonus

Senior/Principal developers: Front-end, back-end, SQL, system architecture, infrastructure.Salary: 600000-1200000 NOK + Bonus

If you live in Norway and this sounds interesting, email us at: job at boost dot ai

kdavis 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Mozilla | Machine Learning Research Engineer | Berlin, London, Paris | https://mzl.la/2qGIwic

Do you dream of harnessing your machine learning knowledge to enrich users lives and to improve their privacy and security while opening up models and data to the world?

If so, you should join Mozillas Machine Learning group!

As a Machine Learning Research Engineer at Mozilla you will:

 -Design & deploy machine learning algorithms & models to the open Internet (Initial STT focus) -Define research & experiment strategies that iteratively move towards their stated goals -Stay on top of the latest machine learning research -Present internally and/or externally on internal and/or external research of note -Integrate pertinent research into current projects -As part of Emerging Technologies, work with the Mozilla organizationfinance, legal, product, etc in shepherding our work to completion
Your professional profile:

 Requirements -A thorough understanding of deep learning algorithms -3+ years of machine learning research+engineering experience -Ability to apply machine learning to solve business problems -Authority in one, or proficiency in more than one, programming language (Python, C++...) -Technical fluency, ability to clearly discuss algorithms, architectures, and trade-offs Preferred Qualifications -PhD in Machine Learning, Mathematics, Physics, or other quantitative field -Experience with TensorFlow -Project management skills

njay 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Hipmunk | San Francisco | ONSITE

Looking for Site Reliability, iOS, and Machine Learning engineers.


Travel is a huge industry and we're shaking it up. We consistently lead the pack in every measure of customer love (net promoter scores, app store ratings, etc) because delightful customer experiences in travel are why we exist. We value the same high standards in our code and people. We value learning and growth (and not having bored people) and invest regular time in doing so. For example, every quarter we have one week of open time for you to spend becoming a better engineer. Our stack is built on PostgreSQL, Redis, Python, nginx, HBase, Coffeescript, React/Redux, ES6, Swift, and a few more things.

We hire diverse, well-rounded, communicative people we can envision being friends with and trusting. Our projects tend to be 1-2 engineers max so trust and accountability is required for us to work. Also helps us keep processes & overhead low. We appreciate that we've built a reasonably-sized, high-powered team so far (55 employees incl. 30 engineers) and are always striving to be the best place to work for them. We're looking for folks that love all of the above and will help us keep our standards high.

You can go to www.hipmunk.com/jobs if you're interested!

resalisbury 1 hour ago 0 replies      
Checker | San Francisco, CA | Full-time | Onsite

modern and compliant background checks, focused on building a fairer future for applicants. growing and profitable, an unusual combination for the Bay Area :) great engineering centric culture. co-founded by engineers. 110+ ppl, 30+ eng.

Forbes Next Billion Dollar Company: http://bit.ly/2q8T5Kk

4+ years relevant work experience




htroyer 1 hour ago 0 replies      
University of Chicago | Bioinformatics Engineers | Chicago, IL | ONSITE, Full-time, Visa, https://cdis.uchicago.edu

We are looking for experienced bioinformatics engineers to join our data engineering team building out and scaling the Genomic Data Commons, a 5PB open-source data commons platform used by cancer researchers.

Bioinformatics Engineers on our team work with cloud computing infrastructure primarily based on OpenStack to support operations of bioinformatics pipelines at scale. Must have experience working with large datasets, python, relational databases, and linux systems administration.

Please email cdis-jobs@lists.uchicago.edu with a letter of interest, resume, and code sample.

ayw 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Scale API (YC S16) | ML & Software Engineer | San Francisco, CA | Onsite | Full-time | $100,000-$120,000 + Equity 0.25%-1.5%

Scale API is looking for software engineers and machine learning engineers to join our team of 10. Scale API is an API for human intelligence. Our mission is to bring human intelligence to software applications. By combining machine learning and a human workforce, we're actively bridging the gap between what software can do and what humans can do. Our current clients include Alphabet (Google), Uber, Procter & Gamble, Houzz, and many more.

Why you should join:

- We're working on a core problem for our decade - bringing human intelligence to software

- We are growing exceptionally quickly and have amazing investors. We are an extremely promising startup for our size.

- We're a talented team with experience from Dropbox, Quora, Snapchat, Facebook, Palantir, MIT, Harvard, and CMU.

Email careers@scaleapi.com with your GitHub and LinkedIn profiles

styrmis 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Mystery Applicant | Full Stack Ruby/Rails Developer (45-60k p.a.) | Bath, England | ONSITE, REMOTE

Mystery Applicant is looking for a Full Stack Ruby/Rails Developer (onsite or remote within the UK) to join our technical team. We might be small but we are agile and leaders in candidate experience measurement. We provide analytics to some of the worlds largest and most well known employers. We are growing and have some exciting product enhancements to bring to market. Thats where you come in.

This is a great opportunity to join our team and make your mark. If youre interested then get in touch using the application form, ideally with links to some of your code (including test code), and well set up a time to chat.


* No agencies please

rkunal 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Nyaaya | Technology Internship | New Delhi, India | ONSITE, INTERN , http://nyaaya.in

Nyaaya is Indias first free online searchable repository of every central and state law. Our mission is to provide an accessible, user friendly and single window platform which not only documents, but also explains all Indian laws.

Content available at Nyaaya is licensed under Creative Commons License. We are working towards open sourcing our tech platforms as well.

More Information : http://nyaaya.in/blog/nyaaya-intern-call-tech/

dcwilson 12 hours ago 0 replies      
FullContact | Multiple Positions | Denver, CO | ONSITE, https://www.fullcontact.com

Were solving the worlds contact information problem and looking for amazingly talented people to join our team in downtown Denver. We're a primarily JVM focused shop with some very challenging data and scale problems for you to tackle. If you're interested in working with large, messy datasets at scale, we'd love to talk with you.

In addition to challenging technology problems and a great team, we offer 100% paid healthcare for you and your family, parking and transit reimbursement, and a $7,500 "paid paid vacation" stipend, among other benefits.

Open positions:

Senior Software Engineer, Data Platform: http://careers.fullcontact.com/apply/prDdh5Ccsl/Senior-Engin...

DevOps / SRE: http://careers.fullcontact.com/apply/Pe4tbk/DevOps-SRE

Product Manager, API Platform: http://careers.fullcontact.com/apply/qQEfg4/Product-Manager-...

jdevonport 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Airfinity | London or Brighton UK | Full Time | Engineer (Data) & Senior Data Scientist | http://airfinity.com

Working to organise and understand the world's event, attendee and sponsor data. Currently hiring for multiple roles in our data science and engineering team based across London and Brighton.

We are looking for accomplished engineers looking for their next big challenge.

We are a year old and have secured several rounds with a rapidly expanding team working on our event data products.

Salary Range 50-70k + Equity + Benefits, Flexible Working

If you would like to talk please either reach out to me directly and mention HN [james at airfinity .com] or through our Careers page. https://www.airfinity.com/careers

chrisBob 12 hours ago 0 replies      
University of Michigan | Research Support Programmer | Ann Arbor, MI | Full-time | Onsite | $60-$67k https://lsa.umich.edu

I am a research support programmer in the College of Literature, Science and The Arts (LSA) at the University of Michigan, and we are adding a programmer to the Advocacy and Research Support team.

The official posting is: http://careers.umich.edu/job_detail/142167/research_support_...

We are a small team (currently 3) that handles any programming job that a lab in our college cant handle internally. We do a lot of work in MATLAB, LabView, and C. Some examples of my recent projects are:

- Write an iPad app and database backend to allow users to easily input data into a MySQL database while assembling small robots in a cleanroom.

- Write a genetic algorithm program in MATLAB to process protein crystallography data.

- Fix a Java/PHP/SQLite webpage that someone wrote a few years ago and is now crashing.

- Add an Arduino controlled servo to an existing Script used to collect data with an automated microscope.

- Build a template project so that archieology students can easily add their artwork to a HoloLens program and share/visualize the sites they are studying.

If you have any questions you are welcome to email me, but you should apply directly via the official post. The pay is reasonable for the area, and we have a nice, low-stress work environment. The projects vary greatly, and you will have the opportunity to work on large and small projects in a variety of languages. We are putting an emphasis on candidates that have some lab/research work. A CS Degree is not required. I am a mechanical engineer by schooling and I fit in well.

tamentis 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Truveris | New York, NY | Full Time | ONSITE


Stop wasting your talent placing ads, working in finance or building yet another social networking app, join us to improve healthcare in America.

The systems we build help millions of American afford their medications and bring transparency in the complicated space of pharmacy benefits.

We like simple and robust systems and we need people who first write code for their peers. In the perfect world, you're a UNIX philosopher and Pythonista, fluent in SQL (we love PostgreSQL and SQLAlchemy) and you've abused public cloud APIs (we use AWS). We're very team-centric and while you'll have the opportunity to work on your own, you should be kind, have good communication skills and a sense of humor.


- 3+ years of coding under your belt, be it open source or commercial

- Python experience

- RDBMS (we use PostgreSQL but a decent exposure to any SQL system is good)

- Experience with version control, ticket systems, code review

- Experience with Linux/Unix (you know your way around a shell)

Nice to have:

- Experience building and working with APIs and web apps

- AWS experience (we use EC2, S3, SQS, Redshift, RDS, VPC)

- Experience with SQLAlchemy, Pyramid (or Django, Flask)

Email me (CTO): bertrand@truveris.com

dmangot 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Pingdom (SolarWinds) | Lead Site Reliability Engineer (SRE) | Vsters, Stockholm, Krakow, Brno, Edinburgh, Newcastle | ONSITE, REMOTE

http://bit.ly/2qH6udxFor more information, email dmangot[at]librato[dot]com with the subject line [Hacker News Pingdom SRE]

Pingdom. You and over 700K+ other users know the name, but do you know how it works? How we manage to probe all those websites from locations all over the world? How we're able to collect all that data and make it actionable and useful for everyone from engineers to marketers? At Pingdom you'll have the unique chance to help all those users improve their services. Pretty cool, right?

We're hiring for a Lead SRE position at Pingdom and we'd love to find someone with a passion for metrics and monitoring. We're a small team so you'd have a chance to have a really big impact. Our stream processing pipeline is mostly Python, Go, and Javascript with RabbitMQ, MySQL, and MongoDB. We do uptime, RUM, and other monitoring and the SRE team uses a mix of Chef, Python, Docker, and Terraform currently to run the platform.

Pingdom is wholly owned by SolarWinds Inc. so you get the benefits of a small startup, with the backing of a big company so there is no worry about the next round of funding.

If this sounds interesting to you, we'd love to open up a conversation about whether we're a good match, setup some interviews and a coding test. You can find the contact info above.

binarybana 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Intel | Compiler/Software Engineers | San Diego, Santa Clara, San Francisco, Folsom OR | REMOTE/VISA for strong candidates. Full-time.

Currently in deep learning, if one wants to implement a low level kernel (LSTM, batch-norm etc), you're either going to be writing CUDA or device specific low level code. Join us as we grow the Intel Nervana Graph project (https://www.nervanasys.com/intel-nervana-graph-preview-relea...) the deep learning equivalent of LLVM: an open source deep learning compiler and IR. We plan on pushing the boundaries of tensor optimizations and enable the same benefits that the programming language and compiler community have reaped from LLVM.

Required: C++, modern software engineering, at_least_3(humility, curiosity, drive, on_the_right_side_of_Dunning_Kruger_effect).

Desired: Python, low level optimization, numerical linear algebra, deep learning/ML


Feel free to copy me directly at jason.knight@intel.com too.

sometimesjames 13 hours ago 2 replies      
Hadean | Systems Programmer | London | ONSITE, VISA

We're looking for a brilliant systems-level implementor to join us in London who matches 6 of the following:

 loves C loves Rust has a wide array of ambitious self-directed projects has got their hands dirty writing technically complex systems, such as: a high-performance database/KV store an OS a programming language implementation enjoys writing roughlyperformance-optimal code enjoys writing roughlyreliability-optimal code (static/bounded memory allocation) has used EPOLLET has used io_submit + O_DIRECT has bypassed the Linux kernel (for fun and/or profit) has written on top of paravirtualisation APIs enjoys reverse engineering [insert your own comparable points here]
Our team runs the gamut systems, distributed systems, compilers, scientific computing, professors, famous computer scientists and is well-funded to change the landscape of compute. If intrigued, drop us an email with how you match up to the above list to jobs@hadean.com

thathoo 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Square | Appointments, San Francisco | Full Time | ONSITE | VISA sponsorship | https://squareup.com/appointments

Fullstack Engineers - come help define and build software that is the backbone of Services businesses (largest sector of the US Economy). We have fun technical problems to solve on the front-end as well as backend as we scale-up to serve the millions of small businesses across all countries served by Square

Apply today: https://www.smartrecruiters.com/Square/112674544 or email: rahul@squareup.com

Interview process is a phone screen, then onsite, then offer (competitive cash + equity that's liquid since we are public!).

Customer reviews: "Square appointments has CHANGED MY LIFE" | "I love it , I can enjoy more out of my days now . I don't have to keep my book with me 24 hours a day . Gives me a lot of freedom."

codnee 13 hours ago 1 reply      
BOOKING.COM - Amsterdam, The Netherlands | ONSITE | VISA Sponsorship | Relocation package

Hiring process:Hacker rank test -> Recruiter Call -> Phone/Skype Interview -> Trip to Amsterdam for final interview.

We are the biggest accommodations site on the planet. We are a very data driven, diverse and dynamic company. We all have a saying on what we want to do, and you are trusted with the flexibility of how to do it.

I came to work for Booking as an iOS Developer a few months ago. Being from a third world country, and having only had local experience, when I applied, I was not sure I was going to make it. However, not only was I hired, and helped relocate to the Netherlands, Ive had nothing but positive experiences (except that one time I had a bad migraine and couldnt go to work) since I moved here.

If any of that sounds like it might interest you here are some of the positions available:

* Software developer: http://grnh.se/g7y1iw1

* Front end developer: http://grnh.se/ts8ixw1

* UX designer (HTML/CSS): http://grnh.se/6lwb5c1

* Data scientist - Machine learning: http://grnh.se/qfsd6e1

* Data scientist - Analytics: http://grnh.se/fw1t0u1

Other job vacancies at http://grnh.se/30g5b71

Greek0 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Ubimet | C++/Python Developer | Vienna, Austria | ONSITE

Ubimet is a leading weather service providers in Europe. We're experts in meteorology and issue customized weather forecasts for several million private and industrial customers. Together with our shareholder (Red Bull), we pursue the goal to be the weather service with the world's best quality forecasts.

We're looking for a C++/Python developer to work on interesting problems at the intersection of big data, realtime services, and scientific computing. We offer a great work environment in the city with the highest quality of living worldwide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercer_Quality_of_Living_Surve...). If you have to move, we offer a relocation package and take care of any visa formalities.

We especially encourage women, people of color, and others who are underrepresented in the tech industry to apply.

If you're interested, check out http://www.ubimet.com and apply at https://career2.successfactors.eu/career?career%5fns=job%5fl...

chillydawg 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Longshot Systems | Senior Machine Learning Researcher | Marylebone, London, UK | ONSITE | Full time | 60k-85k

At Longshot Systems Ltd we're a small startup building advanced platforms for sports betting analytics and trading. Having developed a lot of our core platform infrastructure we are looking to begin expanding our trading strategy research activity.

You'd be working closely with the CEO to design, test and implement new high frequency sports betting strategies based on machine learning models for our clients. Due to us being a small startup the role suits someone who wants to be involved in all aspects of the R&D process, from high-level design through to production implementation.

The ideal candidate will be highly creative and enjoy generating new, innovate ways to tackle problems and suggesting improvements to existing methodologies; you'll have a high level of autonomy to research whichever methods you felt would be best suited to the problem at hand.We have an office dog, Minos. He's a beagle and rather cheeky. He really likes his tennis ball. We can send you a pic if you need it to help in your decision making process.Unfortunately we can't support visa applications at this time.

If you would like to apply please visit https://longshot-systems-ltd.workable.com/jobs/494650 or if you have any questions please email me at jobs@longshotsystems.co.ukWebsite: https://www.longshotsystems.co.uk/

alasano 13 hours ago 0 replies      
Coveo | JavaScript Developer | Montreal & Quebec City, Canada | Full-time, ONSITE or REMOTE

We're looking for programmers to join our team working on our new, cool JavaScript UI search page framework. Our goal is to create a framework that developers like you will love. We want to enable creation of great custom search experiences backed by our awesome index technology, and have fun doing it.

If you're curious, check out our dev documentation here (https://developers.coveo.com/display/public/JsSearchV1/JavaS...). You can even download and play with it, so you know what you're getting into. We primarily use (and love) Typescript to help grow our codebase without losing our sanity in addition to recent libraries and tools.

While we offer all the perks people come to expect of a job (great new offices, top of the line equipment, competitive salaries and insurance, unlimited cappucinos and snacks, nerf gun battles), we think the best part about working with us is simply being excited about going to work every day. On a day to day basis you'll continually face interesting challenges, have great autonomy and you'll be able to bring your ideas to the table knowing that your team genuinely wants to hear them.

Coveo is positioned as the top leader for Insight Engines in Gartner's 2017 Magic Quadrant (http://blog.coveo.com/coveo-leads-gartner-magic-quadrant-for...). We're growing quickly and hiring talented, passionate developers to join our worldclass team. Our Montreal offices are brand new (http://blog.coveo.com/coveo-montreal-finally-home/) and we've also rebuilt our entire Quebec City office to accomodate all our new hires in a great environment.

Interview Process: phone screen - interview - tech test - offer.

To get in touch : aasanovic@coveo.com or simply take a look and apply here http://careers.coveo.com/open-positions

frequent 8 hours ago 0 replies      
NEXEDI | Lille/Munich/Paris/Plovdiv | ONSITE | 4/12 months INTERNS

We are looking for new colleagues to help improve our FOSS software solutions and contribute to research and industrial projects. If you are passionate about open source software and like one of our topics on http://www.nexedi.com/jobs get in touch with us! Candidates will do a programming challenge followed by an interview. We're currently looking for:

 - Nexedi | Web Mesh Network JavaScript Developer | Lille | INTERN - Nexedi | Artificial Language Processing Python Developer | Lille | INTERN - Nexedi | Connected Cars JavaScript Developer | Lille | INTERN - Nexedi | Site Reliability Python Developer | Paris | INTERN - Nexedi | Out-Of-Core Numpy Python Developer | Munich | INTERN - Nexedi | Big Data Machine Learning Python Developer | Lille | INTERN - Nexedi | Linux JavaScript Port Developer | Lille | INTERN - Nexedi | AI Business Bot Python Developer | Munich | INTERN 
About Nexedi: We are a small international team of about 30 programmers (headquarters in Lille, France) creating free software since 2001. We run our own stack with ERP5 (Business Suite), SlapOS (Cloud Deployment) and Wendelin (Big Data/Machine Learning) being the main solutions for which we provide customization services (our code is free, our time isn't). We have time to tinker, need to think out-of-the-box/ram/space and work mostly autonomous. We all use Chromebooks, our hierarchy is as flat as the area around Lille, our offices are paperless and we have no meetings. We mostly hack in Python and (vanilla) JavaScript. If you're looking for fame or gain, we're not the right place. For purpose and leverage, we might be worth considering. Join us!

mdisc 42 minutes ago 0 replies      
SchooLinks - SchooLinks.com | Post-seed, revenue generating, fast growing edtech startup located in downtown Austin, TX. Hiring full time, full stack developers. Python + PHP and Angular.


jamieiles 10 hours ago 1 reply      
Full-time, remote within US

Ksplice is the leading technology that allows administrators to patch the kernel on the fly with zero downtime and zero disruption. We're a distributed team of engineers forming part of the Linux and Virtualization group at Oracle with a passion for working on exciting technology, software craftmanship and all things Linux.

We're looking for a systems engineer to join us, helping Ksplice patch even more of the system, support new releases and improving our workflow. If you take pride in crafting software, don't rest until you full understand complex problems and are curious about what happens on the layer below then Ksplice will be of interest to you. You'll like working at all levels of a Linux system, developing tooling in Python+bash, analyzing security vulnerabilities in Linux kernel patches, enhancing the Ksplice tools and improving the workflow.

Required skills include:

 * Skilled with software development best practices including TDD * Expert level C/C++ programming * Understanding of security issues and defences in compiled languages * Strong experience with Python * Experience developing the Linux kernel or similar embedded systems * Excellent problem solving and debugging skills
More information about Ksplice is available at http://ksplice.oracle.com/ and you can contact me by email at jamie.iles@oracle.com if you have any questions. Oracle is an equal opportunity employer.

phunehehe0 3 hours ago 2 replies      
ZALORA | Site Reliability Engineer | Singapore | ONSITE, REMOTE, VISA

The DevOps team at ZALORA is looking for an additional member.

Automation and availability will be your main goals. You will use Nix/NixOS to glue together a stack of Go, MySQL, PHP, RabbitMQ, Solr and more.

A code review is the deciding factor. You either send in an existing project, or implement our coding task. After that we'll have a call and optionally meet to sort out other details.

Apply at http://jobs.zalora.com/apply/lOd9Ir. I personally reply to all applications.

felskia 7 hours ago 1 reply      
Development Seed | Machine Learning Engineer | Washington, DC + Lisbon, Portugal | Full-Time, On-site Preferred | https://developmentseed.org/careers/machine-learning/

Development Seed seeks an engineer with experience in machine learning. Here, you will work with us to build tools that extract insights from large datasets, especially satellite imagery data. You will help solve pressing social and environmental challenges, and create powerful new knowledge for organizations like UNICEF, the World Bank, The Washington Post, and NASA. Our work is a combination of research, implementation, and delivery, and youll partner with researchers at half a dozen universities to explore novel machine learning approaches. Ultimately, youll build tools that help our clients make better decisions and deliver better services.

Development Seed is a group of developers and designers who create positive social impact with open tech and open knowledge. We specialize in platforms that derive useful insights from complex data. We are currently building a suite of tools to allow these global organizations to benefit from powerful machine learning methods. At the heart of this effort is our Skynet suite, which automates mapping in developing countries using OSM as a training set: https://developmentseed.org/blog/2017/01/30/machine-learning....

If this sounds like something you want to work on, send your resume to jobs@developmentseed.org. Tell us about yourself and what youd love to work on at Development Seed.

bmleon2002 9 hours ago 1 reply      
Full-Stack Software Engineer | Doctible | ONSITE | Fulltime | San Diego, CA | 100k-120k

Doctible is a growth & automation platform for the healthcare industry. We make tools for healthcare practices like Dentists, Optometrists and Chiropractors that simplify their lives, help them reduce tedious manual work and make their patients happy! Were also one of the few fast growing startups in San Diego, CA. We're looking for an experienced Full-Stack engineer that primarily deal with Rails, ReactJS and PostgreSQL in the past 5-6 years.Interview Process: Quick phone call to start, then we're interested to meet you in person to discuss interests in person. Then we will give a few technical challenges which you can complete remotely.https://www.doctible.com/careersPlease send cover letter and resume to career at doctible dot com

HNtribal 2 hours ago 0 replies      
TribalScale | Toronto, Canada | Orange County, California | Full time | Onsite | http://www.tribalscale.com/

TribalScale is a mobile first company that specializes in connected devices and the Internet of Things. Located in the heart of downtown Toronto, TribalScale is a rapidly growing Product Development firm that aims to collide the physical and digital worlds. Our team members have a history of partnering with some of the worlds most premium brands, helping to shepherd businesses into the connected age. We are growing extremely fast and looking for talented software engineers to support that growth. Some of the platforms and environments that we have worked on and will be working on are: Mobile apps & Web Services (iOS, Android, Smartwatches, Google Glass & Other Wearables, Connected Home,Smart TVs, Beacon solutions

We're hiring for many roles including:

- Full Stack Web Engineer

- iOS Engineer

- Android Engineer

- UI/UX Designer

- Enterprise Solutions Architect

- Mobile QA

Please apply here https://tribalscale.workable.com or email tlui [at] tribalscale.com if youre interested in learning more.

jkarraker 3 hours ago 0 replies      
ScriptDash | San Francisco, CA | Software Engineer | Full Time - Onsite | https://www.scriptdash.com

At ScriptDash we are using technology to re-design and re-build the pharmacy from the ground up to offer better patient care and improve people's lives. Justin Kan recently named us one of his 3 favorite recent startups (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12618741).

We believe that the status quo in the pharmacy industry is broken and were doing something about it. Were a VC funded ($6 million series A) technology startup based in San Francisco made up of ex-Facebook engineers. We offer free medication delivery in the Bay Area and were building an advanced technology platform to help patients manage and understand their medication therapy. We allow patients to text, call or email their pharmacists with any question and strive to provide an amazing patient experience. The pharmacy experience is completely broken, and we have a huge opportunity to use technology to improve the lives of millions of patients.

Our stack is Ruby on Rails, React, React Native, and Go. Were offering a competitive salary and a generous equity package.

Apply by API! More details at https://scriptdash.com/careers/software_engineer?gh_jid=5536...

xando 13 hours ago 8 replies      
Hey, a friendly reminder. Im parsing the thread, all job offers added here are also available on the map onhttps://whoishiring.io or just HN items https://whoishiring.io/search/36.0440/-90.8984/4?source=hnIf you post here, please use the below format to help me with parsing. If you wont, no worries, I will do my best to get all the things right.

 1) {company} | {job title} | {locations} | {attrs: ONSITE, REMOTE, INTERNS, VISA, SALARY, company-url} Google | Software Developer | SF | VISA https://google.com DuckDuckGo | Software Developer | Paoli PA | REMOTE, VISA, SALARY:100k-120k Facebook | Web-developer | Zurich | SALARY:120k CHF Google | Site Reliability Engineer | London | SALARY:120k GBP, VISA, REMOTE

 2) {company} | {job title} | {location} Google | Site Reliability Engineer | Sydney Facebook | Web-developer | Zurich
Im using this regex to test the first line, you can test it here https://regex101.com/r/relwQD/3

Check bellow for the SALARY regex.

and you can test it as well https://regex101.com/r/SRWkMz/2/

There is the "report" button in footer of job offers, please complain if I did something wrong.

jharohit 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Transcelestial Technologies http://transcelestial.com | Singapore | Full Time | Onsite | Visa Covered

Transcelestial is re-imagining communications technology for the 21st century by creating the first ever, super fast space laser network which uses a constellation of nano satellites. Our network will transfer data 1000x faster than current radio wave technology for terrestrial, satellite and deep space applications.

We are part of the inaugural batch of Entrepreneur First in Singapore, working under the patronage of SGInnovate. We have an incredibly fun and ambitious team who are looking for extremely motivated engineers and researchers. Our office is located in the heart of the business district, with a stone's throw away from the best pubs in town. We love people who challenge the status quo and show extreme grit and persistance.

Join us, if you find space exciting, and define the rules for how our civilization grows and communicates!

-- Machine Vision Role: https://angel.co/transcelestial-technologies/jobs/234904-spa...

-- Embedded Hardware Engineer: https://angel.co/transcelestial-technologies/jobs/234900-spa...

or email directly [team {at} transcelestial.com]

jeffnappi 9 hours ago 0 replies      
ClearVoice | Phoenix, AZ or REMOTE | full-time | https://www.clearvoice.com/

ClearVoice is a Content Marketing Platform and Marketplace. We make creating great content easy for everyone. We have indexed over 100M online articles and have identified and ranked 200k+ content producers. We use this index to power our transparent freelancer marketplace. We supply all engineers with Macbook Pros, standing desks and quality tools. Competitive pay, fantastic weather and low cost of living in Phoenix (or wherever you live)!


* Front-End Software Engineer ($70-$100k)

* Junior Software Engineer (onsite) ($40-$60k)



alexpeattie 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Peg | Full Stack Developer | London | ONSITE | fulltime | https://peg.co/hiring | 35k-55k + equity

We're on a mission to shift $1BN in advertising budgets towards independent content creators, so we're after someone with frontend and backend development skills to help make that happen.

We're looking for one dev with 1+ years of experience building software professionally, and another with 3+ years; but above all we're after people who are excited about building world-class software, getting their hands dirty with tough problems, and constantly learning.

Our stack is Rails 4.2, Angular, a PostgreSQL DB (now quite big, hundreds of millions of rows), Redis/Sidekiq, Gulp for builds - the whole shebang is at https://stackshare.io/peg/peg

We've just moved into lovely new offices near Aldgate East, if you'd like to drop in and chat more about the roles, drop me a line: alex@peg.co

jeandenis 12 hours ago 1 reply      
Plaid | Backend Engineers, Product Engineers, Security Engineers, SRE | San Francisco, CA | ONSITE, Full-time, https://plaid.com/

We believe that the way consumers and businesses interact with their finances will drastically improve in the next few years. Plaid's goal is to enable this shift by building the tools and infrastructure that allow developers to create the next generation of financial services applications. Today, hundreds of companies such as Robinhood, Acorns, Coinbase and Venmo rely on Plaid to integrate with banks and the financial system.

Plaids infrastructure handles millions of requests per day and thousands of bank integrations, and we pride ourselves on maintaining a robust API to support the developers who depend on us -- and the millions of consumers who use their apps. Our API and most of our services are written in Go and Typescript. Our infrastructure is built on top of AWS, Elasticsearch, Redshift, S3, Spark -- and although we love trying new technology as individuals, as a team we are pragmatic in our choices, favoring the right tool and not the flavor of the month.

We're Series B and our current team is about 85 (including 35 in engineering).

If you are interested in any of our roles please reach out to me over email - jgreze __at__ plaid.comHere is a link to our job postings: https://plaid.com/careers/

We're especially focused on hiring experienced engineers (backend, product, security) at this time.

ivanzhao 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Notion | Software Developer | SF | https://www.notion.so | Full Time | Onsite

 Hey founder of Notion here. You can think of it as the next generation Microsoft Office meets Minecraft (and actually a visual programming language behind the scene). We made a graphic novel about why we exist. (It involves Steve Jobs believe or not): https://notion.so/about Read more market related comments on Product Hunt. (Notion was one of the fastest voted of all time): https://www.producthunt.com/posts/notion-1-0-web-mac-app We are tiny at the moment. The business is growing fast. We have a beautiful artist loft in the SF Mission district, with the best investors out there (notion.so/investors). You need to be able to build things and think conceptually. Email me directly at "ivan@makenotion.com" Have a good one.

eriktrautman 13 hours ago 0 replies      
Viking Education | Course Mentor | Remote | Part Time | http://www.vikingcodeschool.com

Viking Code School is a 100% online development bootcamp driven by the mission of launching a million high-growth careers around the world regardless of a students location, prior experience or economic standing.

Our mentor-led Flex Program pairs students with industry veterans who perform weekly code reviews as part of the learning process. It is a great chance to pass on your knowledge without leaving your day job (or your house). As a mentor, you work with your mentee(s) during their full time in the course, which typically takes between 6-12 months to finish. You meet with your mentee 1-3 times per week for code review and can work with anywhere from 1 to 10+ students, depending on desire and ability.

Our back end has two tracks (Ruby/Rails or Node/Express) and our front end covers JavaScript/React/Redux. As a mentor, you have access to the course materials so you can get up to speed on anything you aren't firm on.

Check-ins are compensated.


* 4+ years of professional development experience as part of an engineering team.

* Strong grounding in CS fundamentals like Data Structures and Algorithms.

* Relevant experience with CS, Ruby/Rails, SQL, JavaScript/React etc.

Email careers@vikingcodeschool.com with your CV, links and anything else that would prove your development or teaching ability and general awesomeness.

mbooking 6 hours ago 0 replies      
BOOKING.COM - Amsterdam, The Netherlands | ONSITE | VISA support | Relocation to Amsterdam Booking.com is hiring smart people just like you, if you want to live in beautiful city like Amsterdam and work at Booking.com, I recommend you to apply for these jobs:

Software Developer - http://grnh.se/ci7oka1

Sr. Software Developer - http://grnh.se/gahd3r1

Android Developer - http://grnh.se/iaf6et1

Sr.Android Developer - http://grnh.se/8aek3x1

Sr. IOS Developer - http://grnh.se/qs4fru1

UX Designer - http://grnh.se/v4fgwh1

Frontend Developer - http://grnh.se/mf4e3d1

Full Stack Software Developer (Beijing, China) - http://grnh.se/hrt4cv1

More about job vacancies at http://grnh.se/6tnb3v

DavidMcLaughlin 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Cloud Platform @ Twitter | San Francisco, CA | ONSITE

We're looking for engineers to come work on Twitter's Cloud Platform team in downtown San Francisco. All of Twitter's stateless services run on our platform, and this means we need to support hundreds of thousands of tasks running across tens of thousands of machines (and growing every day!).

Our platform is almost entirely open sourced via Apache Mesos and Apache Aurora, and we're looking to push on and improve the efficiency, usability and reliability of our platform at our unique scale.

We have the following technologies on our team:

* Mesos - C++ - Isolation and resource management (https://github.com/apache/mesos)

* Aurora - Java - Service scheduler. (https://github.com/apache/aurora)

* Workflows - Scala/ReactJS - our internal Continuous Delivery platform

* Analytics Pipeline - Scala/Python - our data pipeline to feed back to users to help them make smarter decisions about how they use our platform.

* Operations - Python/Go/Puppet/etc. - The tooling we use to do all of this with a pretty painless oncall and only two SREs.

As you can imagine, it's a great team for an experienced generalist who enjoys all parts of building a product, but we also have problems that a specialist in any of these areas would have a field day with.

We're mostly looking for candidates who have at least a couple years experience designing (and implementing) complex systems in a team environment, as well as candidates excited about this space.

If this interests you at all or you'd like more information on the work we're doing, our roadmap or any other questions, please get in touch at dm@twitter.com

JasonMerriman 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Business Insider | Javascript Engineer, Dev Ops Engineer, QA Engineer | NYC | Onsite | Fulltime | https://careers.jobscore.com/careers/businessinsider

Business Insider is growing at a great pace with publishing platforms in many continents and the most popular business news site in America. In addition to Business Insider, we run INSIDER, http://thisisinsider.com, and BI Intelligence, a premium subscription service for industry professionals. With a global family of sites across Europe and Asia, we are quickly closing in on a billion page views per month.

Javascript Engineer: https://careers.jobscore.com/careers/businessinsider/jobs/ja...

DevOps Engineer: https://careers.jobscore.com/careers/businessinsider/jobs/de...

QA Engineer: https://careers.jobscore.com/careers/businessinsider/jobs/qa...

rchiba 11 hours ago 0 replies      
TINT | Front End Engineer | https://www.tintup.com | San Francisco | REMOTE (US/Canada) | $90K - $164K

APPLY HERE: https://www.tintup.com/jobs?lever-source=hackernews

Were looking for a Front End Engineer to join our small 30-person team. We offer a competitive compensation package, and have a flexible remote work policy.

Over 5,000 brands use TINT to power their content marketing. We are proudly profitable, not dependent on investor funding. Every Friday we work on hack projects that we think will push the business forward. Our current stack is Backbone, Rails, MySQL, and AWS.



on the positions: https://www.tintup.com/jobs?lever-source=hackernews

on TINT company culture: https://www.tintup.com/about

on a few of our customers: https://www.tintup.com/clients

on what it's like to work here: https://instagram.com/tint/


BENEFITS (besides the competitive salary and equity...)

TEAM TRANSPARENCY - We calculate compensation based on a formula that we all agree on. Cap table is made available to all employees. Business financials are known by all teammates. Even cofounder meeting minutes are sent to the team.

FLEXIBLE REMOTE WORK - We have a flexible remote work policy that allows employees based in San Francisco to work remotely for extended periods, and for engineers to join us remotely full-time.

PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM - A monthly stipend and program designed for self-improvement. Every month, we individually choose goals to accomplish and are given a stipend to accomplish them.

APPLY HERE: https://www.tintup.com/jobs?lever-source=hackernews

liangzan 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Courex - www.storeviva.com | Multiple positions in Engineering | Singapore/Malaysia/Indonesia/Vietnam | ONSITE in Singapore(or REMOTE in Southeast Asia)

# What the company does

Courex is an 8 year old ecommerce logistics company driven by technology. We help our customers manage their supply chain so they can focus on selling. We do the following

 - last mile delivery - warehousing - omnichannel integration
Our operations is driven by technology. Some interesting stuff

 - We run a hybrid crowd-sourced(uber style) + fixed fleet model. - We built an automated parcel dimension measurement machine using Kinect - We have autonomous robots coming in late 2017 to pick and sort parcels
Experience a different sort of scale. Not bits and bytes, but parcels, machines and people. Your work affects the real world in a huge traditional industry.

# What the job entails

We are expanding to South-east Asia. We have a few positions open.

 - Front-end lead for all our products. - Engineering(all levels) in our Inventory team who uses Haskell to sync & track stock movement - Engineering(all levels) in our Transport team who uses Node.js/React to run our delivery operations - Head of Data Science 
# Contact

Please email zan+hn@courex.com.sg if you are interested.

papercruncher 10 hours ago 1 reply      
Tubi TV | Data, Android | San Francisco, Beijing | ONSITE VISA SALARY:150k-225kUSD https://tubitv.com

We are making premium TV shows and movies available for streaming everywhere and to everyone, 100% free. Join Tubi TV and reinvent the way consumers discover and consume premium, studio content. With over 40,000 movies & TV shows, Tubi TV has the world's largest catalog of premium content, all made available to consumers for free. Some of our studio partners include MGM, Lionsgate and Paramount. We offer very competitive base salary & a performance-based bonus plan, stock options, full medical, dental & vision, catered lunch, gym subsidies and your choice of hardware. Learning is a huge part of our culture and we frequently help non-engineers learn basic programming skills.

- Lead Data Engineer/Scientist: Full autonomy and end to end ownership. In charge of building and running the entire data team. The ideal candidate can do their own analysis, build ML models, write quality code and ship them to production. http://grnh.se/esfm0b1

- Sr Data Engineer/Scientist: Machine Learning background and comfortable writing production quality code in Python or Scala. http://grnh.se/uhpgc01

- Sr Android Engineer: Work on an app with millions of users and help redefine how long form content gets consumed on mobile. The ideal candidate loves working on consumer products and obsesses over UX. http://grnh.se/j5sgvm1

If you'd like to chat first, send me an email (marios at tubitv dot com) and mention HN in the subject. Unfortunately we do not currently offer remote positions. We also have some non-engineering positions open, see https://tubitv.com/static/careers for more details

tomhoward 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Moonshot Labs | Developers - Ruby/Rails and Frontend/JS/React | Melbourne, Australia - Remote/Location Independent | 3-Month Contract, Full Time

Moonshot Labs is a new development studio established by Nathan Sampimon, founder of the Inspire9 co-working space and development agency. Team members include founders of Adioso, Skitch and Pozible.

We are working on several web/mobile projects for clients in travel, healthcare and real estate management.

Our stack includes Ruby on Rails and React/React Native, and we are looking for experienced developers who are able to hit the ground running with these technologies.

For details, see:

Front-End ReactJS role: https://gist.github.com/nathanscott/a4f4d7d363d5202dac7a83eb...

Ruby/Rails role: https://gist.github.com/nathanscott/3d759007daf4687ec52ef7cd...

rudasi 10 hours ago 1 reply      
Trexo Robotics | Toronto | Full-time | Onsite | VISA | www.trexorobotics.com

Trexo Robotics is an exoskeleton robotics start up working towards making mobility a reality for the disabled and elderly. Founded by Waterloo mechatronics graduates we strive to provide a strong engineering culture and believe in getting things done. Currently Trexo Robotics is working on a rehabilitation exoskeleton for children with lower body movement disorders such as Cerebral Palsy and is looking for it first robotics engineer to help implement software for control, modelling and testing of our robot.

Skills: C/C++/Python, ROS, control systems theory.Benefits: Competitive salary and equity, first employee, opportunity to help children with mobility issues.

If interested please email at ru@trexorobotics.com

bitxbitxbitcoin 6 hours ago 0 replies      
PRIVATE INTERNET ACCESS | https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/

Available jobs:

Developers, DevOps, Marketing | [Remote] | Full-Time

Tech Support | Denver, CO | Onsite | Full-Time

PRIVATE INTERNET ACCESS is fighting the good fight against censorship, surveillance, and overall evil. Please e-mail jobs@privateinternetaccess.com to APPLY. Please make sure to send a resume, cover letter, links to anything worth seeing, etc.

Please read this if you haven't already: http://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/manifesto.html

If you want to help fight the good fight with the company who has donated the most to organizations such as the EFF, FFTF, Creative Commons, Linux Mint, Freenode, etc., then send us an e-mail.

Thank you in advance, and have a wonderful day. We look forward to standing in line with you against draconian injustice.

filipjakubowski 5 hours ago 0 replies      
Loot | Software Enginner ( Ruby, iOS) | London, UK | ONSITE, FULL TIME, https://loot.io, SALARY: 45-75k GBP + share options

At Loot, we believe that students and young people should be able to go out and do the things they love without worrying about money or relying on an overdraft. Whether theyre saving for a night out, an around the world trip or even saving for a mortgage on a house - well help you get there.

Based in London (UK), Pozna and Biaystok (Poland), we are a small team of motivated and hardworking individuals - with a shared love for Disco music. We're unified by the satisfaction we feel from fussing over the finer details of everything from UX to our API.

Stack: Swift iOS, JAVA Android, Ruby Backend, AWS, Rabbit, CircleCI, Rollbar ...

Rezo 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Cloudcraft | Senior Software Engineer | New York (NYC) | REMOTE, FULL-TIME or CONTRACTOR https://cloudcraft.co

We're looking for full-stack Senior Software Engineers with modern JavaScript and React experience.

Cloudcraft provides tools for software developers, currently focusing on helping teams work with AWS. Join our small, 100% remote, engineering team and you will have the chance to make a big impact and take ownership of projects and your own work.

Our ideal candidate is self-motivated, has excellent written and verbal communication skills, is interested in UX and has a sense of design, and is always looking to improve and learn. Previous experience with AWS services, graphics programming (including games) or SVG rendering, contributing to open source or personal github projects and any additional programming languages are a big plus.

Our stack consists of JavaScript (100% ES6+), with React on the frontend and Node.js on the backend and literally every single AWS service due to our product's unique nature. You'll have the opportunity for a lot of learning and experimenting on the job!

We're bootstrapped, profitable and growing. Competitive salary and serious about work-life balance. Work from anywhere in the world. To apply please email jobs@cloudcraft.co with your resume or any links you'd like us to check out, and include "HN - Cloudcraft" in the subject line. No recruiters, please.

nemesisj 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Administrate (https://www.getadministrate.com) - Edinburgh, United Kingdom

We're one of the fastest growing tech companies in Scotland, looking for engineers and people in sales.

We provide an EdTech solution that helps training departments and training companies manage their operations. We have beautiful office views of the castle from our city centre location, and we work a 4 Day, 32 hour workweek. You can read more about that here: https://techcrunch.com/2015/12/21/four-day-week/

Looking for:* Software Engineers* Designers* Testers* Smart people who get things done

guha 11 hours ago 2 replies      

Interview process: Video calls if you're distant or an in-person visit if you're local.

We are developing high-performance algorithms for truly big data, video analysis, NLP, and more. We solve deep technical challenges and are building offerings relevant to interesting real-world problems in a variety of fields. We are currently open to engineers with solid experience in C++ and Rust, CUDA, Clojure, and/or ScalaJS, as well as to enthusiastic developers who might lack this precise experience but are eager and able to learn. We also welcome interest from postdoctoral researchers or senior graduate students.

We do not presently have openings for undergraduates (B.Sc. students).

Contact info@onai.com.

spencerbrown 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Mixmax | Full-Stack Engineer or intern | On-site San Francisco (will relocate, also remote an option for experienced engineers) | https://mixmax.com/careers

We're a growing, fast-moving team looking for all types of engineers: full-stack, backend, site reliability, data, integration.

Mixmax's mission is to reinvent the way professionals communicate for work. We're building the impossible: a rich communications platform that brings the power of the web to everyday communication. This includes easily scheduling meetings, completing surveys, making purchases, signing documents, and even interacting with apps. Were fully integrated with Gmail and Google Inbox, and even have a Electron-based native desktop application. Already, were seeing phenomenal growth, with customers from Uber, Airbnb, and tens of thousands of more businesses depending on us for their daily communications.

Were well-funded with an A++ list of investors who previously backed companies like Twitter, Heroku, Lyft, and Square. We have big plans ahead. Come do the impossible with us. Check out our engineering blog to see what we've been working on: https://mixmax.com/engineeringOur stack: Node, Mongo, Elasticsearch, AWS, Redshift, Redis, Electron (full stack: http://stackshare.io/mixmax/mixmax-for-web)

Email careers@mixmax.com and lets chat!

monkeypizza 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Roblox | San Mateo CA | Onsite, Full Time

We're building what I'd have loved at 12 when I wanted to automate my Legos and Construx. It's a scriptable, distributed physics engine with networking support and a social network overlaid on top. Clients run on PC, mobile, and console. Devs publish their game and we spin up servers for them, make physics and networking work, support in-game currency, advertising, etc. Top games have 30k+ simul players, but the tail is very long.

We have over 40m monthly active users, and some devs on the platform are making 100k USD/month (and are still in high school, and have hired their friends to form studios).

We're hiring physics/rendering/networking C++ engineers, windows devops engineers (big scale), C# (or willing to learn) full stack engineers, and data scientists. Check it out at http://roblox.com - it's a downloadable client (to support native 60fps graphics). Make sure to try "Natural Disaster Survival".

Here's the job list: https://angel.co/roblox

k1w1 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Aha! (http://www.aha.io) | Rails / Front End / UX | REMOTE

Aha! is looking for experienced Ruby on Rails, Javascript and front-end engineers to develop rich interactive experiences in React with a Rails backend.

Aha! is the #1 tool for product managers to plan strategy and roadmaps. Aha! is profitable, you can work from anywhere in North America and we offer excellent benefits. We use our own product to manage our work (which is especially rewarding), we deploy continuously and we are developing in Rails/CoffeeScript/React/d3. Our entire team is remote - in US, Canada and Mexico so we can collaborate during the work day.

http://www.aha.io | email: engineering-jobs@aha.io

jzhen 13 hours ago 0 replies      
Thinknum | New York | Multiple Positions | On-site - Full-time | $90k-$140k + equity

=== Who We Are ===

Thinknum is a Fintech company that organizes the Internets commercial activity into data models. Thinknum provides real time granular data (e.g., How quickly is UberEATS growing on a restaurant-by-restaurant basis vs Grubhub?) Were a profitable company that is growing quickly and have hundreds of clients across major financial institutions and corporations. Our office is in Midtown and we offer full benefits.

=== Who We Are Looking For ===

Site Reliability Engineer

Were looking for a SRE that will support enterprise level applications hosted in the cloud. You need to have extensive experience in web application development and exposure to Amazon Web Services, Redshift and Postgres. Experience with container management and micro-services architectures such as Docker is a requirement. Enthusiasm for security best practices is a major plus.

Back-End Data Engineer

We're looking for a back-end engineer that can streamline our data collection process. You will design and implement systems that collect data from websites and make it available to our customers on our platform. You will have experience in Python and familiarity with the DOM and tools for parsing the DOM like Selenium and BeautifulSoup.

Mobile iOS Engineer

We are looking for a talented Mobile Engineer on a contract basis to develop a consumer video app. Our current iOS SDK codebase is in Swift so you will need experience building native mobile apps and/or libraries on iOS using Swift. We are looking for a minimum of 4 years professional experience developing mobile applications for iOS/Swift. Experience with video and streaming is a must. You are required to work in our Midtown office in New York daily.

Director of Marketing

Were looking for a Director of Marketing that can help position our product and generate new qualified leads. You will help deliver our story, vision and product innovation resulting in increased coverage and awareness globally. The ideal candidate will have at least three years of experience marketing a SaaS product. Expertise in public relations, branding and using marketing analytics to make data-driven decisions is essential.

=== Interested? ===

Interested in any of these positions? Drop me a note at jzhen@thinknum.com with Hacker News and the position title in the subject line.

Learn more about us: https://www.thinknum.com/

dkuebric 9 hours ago 0 replies      
Distributed Tracing Engineer(s): node.js, Ruby, and Golang | SolarWinds | Onsite: Vancouver, SF, Boston

TraceView is a monitoring platform providing our customers (other software engineers) with deep understanding of how their applications are performing. In order to provide that insight, we have to collect the data, which is where our instrumentation agent team comes into play.

The agents that feed TraceViews analytics run inside customer application processes, automatically instrumenting them to gather distributed tracing data and other performance analytics, while having minimal or no performance impact so theyre safe to run in high-traffic production environments.

Were looking to hire folks immersed in the Node.js, Ruby, or Golang ecosystems--with bonus points for fluency in multiple languages. (And really wow us if you have a systems generalist bent.)

Youll be combining an eye for performance with digging into the intricacies of the language runtime and native extensions. If you have a passion for constantly learning new libraries and deciphering how they work, and enjoy working deep under the covers of the runtime, then wed like you to join our talented and growing development team.

More information: http://solarwinds.jobs/jobs/?location=vancouver (says Vancouver, but it's flexible location-wise)

Apply above if interested or feel free to reach out with any questions: dan.kuebrich@solarwinds.com

joycechan 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Change.org | Head of Data Science | SF | Onsite

Change.org is the worlds largest technology platform for social change. Our goal is to empower people everywhere to start campaigns around the issues they care about, mobilize others, and work with decision makers to drive solutions.

Were seeking a hands-on technical manager who will own the vision and execution of our data science and infrastructure. Our ideal candidate is motivated to have an enormous impact on a company that is helping to change the world.

Change.org is committed to being a diverse and inclusive workplace. We encourage applicants of different backgrounds, cultures, genders, experiences, abilities and perspectives to apply.

We love serving our incredible users, and we love our staff too. We show it with competitive salaries, five weeks of vacation, robust parental leave, an amazing culture, and a high impact, low-ego team that cant wait to learn from you and teach you what they know.

Process: Recruiter screen, hiring manager screen, technical video interview, onsite interviews

To get in touch: lsmith@change.orgTo apply: https://jobs.lever.co/change/6772e83a-2bd6-4275-83e3-0cb2f83...

sshumaker 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Credit Karma | San Francisco, Charlotte | Full Time, Onsite | https://creditkarma.com

Credit Karma's mission is to make financial progress possible for everyone. We have over 70 million US members and are a true mission-oriented business, a rare case where our incentives are aligned with our users - we succeed by helping our members attain financial progress.

We've been growing rapidly over the past few years (hypergrowth) and are hiring across a wide range of positions. On the backend side, we are moving to Scala-based microservices using finagle and Thrift, and as well as GraphQL on node.js. Our native iOS and Android apps are #1 in finance (with a 5 star rating on the App Store) and we're rebuilding our website in React + Redux. Our data teams use Kafka, Spark and BigQuery among other technologies.

If you're motivated by growth and impact Credit Karma is probably the best place to work in tech today. We have solved product / market fit and distribution, but compared to our peer unicorns there is still so much work to do. If you look at the gap between our product today and what we are well-positioned to become - the main touchpoint for consumer finance - there is tons of opportunity for people joining now to take on responsibility and ownership and have a meaningful impact.


SundayInJapan 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Cogent Labs | Software Engineer (research department), Research Scientist | Tokyo, Japan | ONSITE, FULLTIME, VISA

We are a well funded (about 11.5 million dollars series A funding received in March this year) artificial intelligence startup located in the heart of Tokyo. About 25 members total, from 10 different countries. The focus is on bringing the latest in deep learning / AI research to industries in Japan. We are looking for research scientists and software engineers. Japanese language ability is not required, as the main language within the company is English.

Please apply here: https://cogentlabs.breezy.hr/

The main website is https://www.cogent.co.jp/ , but the English version is not ready yet (only Japanese).

belden 4 hours ago 0 replies      
RetailNext, Inc. | Full-Stack Engineer | Retail Analytics | Bay Area, CA | Full-time | Remote | https://retailnext.net/en/about-us/careers/

RetailNext is hiring for full-stack engineers to join the UI team. We use Ember and Ruby to build the configuration and reporting platform used by retailers to gather and understand customer behavior in-store. Our hardware and software system uses computer vision and a wide variety of other inputs to answer questions that retailers are interested in: how many people walked into the store today compared to last week? which direction did they walk? is this store hitting its sales targets for the week?

I am the engineering manager for the UI team. We're a group of 4 full-stack developers, looking to add more engineers who understand modern CSS and HTML; know Javascript well; and want to have control over the API side of their work. Experience with Ember.js and Ruby on Rails is good but not required. Remote experience is highly preferred for remote candidates. If this sounds like a good fit, please reach out to me! belden@retailnext.net

swesthafer 9 hours ago 0 replies      
PayPal | San Jose, CA | Fulltime | Onsite (relocation available) | Hiring Javascript Application Engineers

PayPal is looking for JavaScript engineers who want to work both in the browser and on the server-side in Node.js. Over the past couple of years, we've worked hard to migrate our entire web application stack to Node and powerful client-side apps and we're looking to turn the dial towards product experimentation and innovation. We need your engineering ability and your desire to be a part of the whole product!

Im a manager on the Online Checkout (thats the Pay with PayPal button and experience) engineering team. We're looking for experienced JavaScript developers. My team is currently working primarily with Angular on the client and Kraken on Node. If you've got experience with React, we're actively exploring doing an inside-out migration of our application and could use your expertise. As most Node shops go, we're leveraging a whole lot of other open source tools as well and we're very supportive of open source activities for our people.

We have several openings within my team as well as within other teams--so drop me a line even if my particular opening doesn't sound interesting and I'll help you find the right place! You can contact me at swesthafer at paypal dot com.

bbfrhd 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Ad Hoc | Software Engineer, DevOps, UX Researcher | REMOTE (US-Based), No Visas

Ad Hoc is a small (but rapidly growing) software engineering company that came out of the successful effort to rescue HealthCare.gov after its disastrous initial launch.

Ad Hoc is focused on delivering and operating fast, stable, and well-designed services on behalf of U.S. federal and state government that enables agencies to provide transactional and informational services to consumers. We do this by bringing people from startups and successful private sector technology companies to these problems, collaborating closely with government partners to deliver software that actually works.

We are hiring for a number of engineering roles (front-end, full-stack, DevOps) and UX Research. You can apply from our website https://adhocteam.us/join/ and read more there about the process.

If you have questions, feel free to contact me (bob@adhocteam.us) and I'd be happy to answer if I can or connect you with the right folks in our recruiting pipeline.

karatkier 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Karat | Expert Interviewer | Seattle, WA

Hiring top talent is a critical activity for all companies, yet the way organizations interview candidates is broken. Interviewing is a time consuming process that is rarely data-driven. Here at Karat, we see a massive opportunity to transform the interviewing experience for every candidate and company.

As an Expert Interviewer, you will be compensated at highly competitive rates for your interviewing expertise. The time commitment is flexible---many of our interviews happen on nights and weekends. Some experts do 5 interviews/week while others do over 20 interviews/week. You can work from anywhere, anytime. You will sharpen your interviewing skills and transform the interviewing experience for every candidate and company.

We are looking for experienced software engineers who believe that interviewing is a first-class job. You should possess:

- Experience as a top performing engineer at a big-tech or start-up.

- Significant interviewing experience focused on evaluating fundamental computer science skills (i.e. data structures, algorithms etc.), software craftsmanship (i.e. understanding of unit testing, source control, APIs etc.), and/or specific technologies (i.e. iOS, distributed systems etc.).

- Strong oral and written communication skills. Able to empathize with candidates and provide actionable feedback.

- An ability to structure your schedule (i.e. you can pick certain blocks of time during the day, evenings, weekends).

- A genuine desire to continuously improve the Karat service and technical interviewing.

Interested? Apply below to learn more and connect with the Karat Team.


arbesfeld 11 hours ago 0 replies      
LogRocket | Cambridge, MA | Boston, MA | Full Time, Onsite | https://logrocket.com

LogRocket is a logging service that helps developers fix problems in their apps by letting them replay bugs. Our product is used by hundreds of companies like UserTesting, Carfax, and NBC to eliminate the guesswork for developers as they fix bugs. We are a few engineers today and looking to double our team in the next few months. If you are interested in joining at the ground-floor of a venture-funded, fast-growing company, feel free to reach out to matt at logrocket dot com.

genarorg 4 hours ago 0 replies      
PAX Labs | Multiple Positions | San Francisco | Onsite https://www.paxvapor.com/careers/

Hi! This is Genaro Rocha, Senior Software Engineer at Pax Labs Inc., makers of the world's best loose leaf, concentrate, extract and nicotine vaporizers. Pax and Juul are currently hiring for our e-commerce and mobile teams, on multiple positions:

E-Commerce Architect: https://www.paxvapor.com/careers?gh_jid=667985

Front-end Engineer: https://www.paxvapor.com/careers?gh_jid=597504

Senior Software Engineer, Android: https://www.paxvapor.com/careers?gh_jid=583120

Senior Software Engineer, Backend: https://www.paxvapor.com/careers?gh_jid=703037

Our web e-commerce team is looking for engineers with experience in Ruby on Rails, the Solidus/Spree framework and/or React.js. This is a solid company, not a start-up. We offer competitive salaries, benefits, equity, and we are making money. We are growing pretty fast, and there is no better time put your foot on the door than now. If you are interested in any of these positions, please send me an email to genaro@pax.com with any questions you might have, or feel free to apply online (mention this post). Thanks!

frossie 10 hours ago 0 replies      
| Large Synoptic Survey Telescope | Senior Cloud Solutions Architect | ONSITE Tucson, AZ | VISA

Cloud engineering where clouds are the enemy! I'm at a major astronomy project to build a telescope that can observe the whole sky twice a week (lsst.org). Our Education and Public Outreach folks down the hallway from me are planning a bunch of cool projects for the general public, kids, and citizen scientists and need someone to come up with how it could all be done using current technology stacks.

So! You get to be one of the first people to learn about the earth-killing asteroid and you get to work on something that your annoying uncle can understand when you go home for Christmas and he asks "So what do you do all day with that computer?"

This is a technical leadership position and as the team is still ramping up it has to be on-site, but Tucson is a great town to live in (they don't call us "The Portland of the SouthWest" for nuthin') and you can buy a house for what it takes you to rent a closet in SV :-) If you need a visa that is fine, we're a quasi-academic shop and our HR is used to this kind of thing.

Don't let the incredibly sucky job application site put you off, it has nothing to do with what the rest of us do :-) Apply here http://ls.st/bo0 (I'm sorry, academia will have cool recruiting practices in, oh, 2045 or so). If you have questions drop me a line (email in the profile).

PS. You get to work with @astropixie in case you're a fan

ssamuli 9 hours ago 1 reply      
Revieve Bringing AI to skincare e-Commerce | Frontend or Fullstack | Valencia, Spain. Helsinki, Finland & Maybe elsewhere? | REMOTE, ONSITE www.revieve.com

Revieve is an e-commerce technology startup transforming the way skincare products are bought in eCommerce stores through computer-vision and AI. A team of serial entrepreneurs with a background in retail technology, we believe the eCommerce shopping experience for beauty and skincare products can be transformed through technology. Working with the leading eCommerce retailers globally, our service is pioneering a new era in eCommerce digital advisors and paving the way for an entirely new way of online shopping.

Headquartered in Helsinki, Finland with a team distributed across Europe, were a proud mix of developers, computer-vision experts, business people and technology-savvy marketers.

Growing at a rapid pace, were looking for superstars, who take pride in their work and bring their creativity, openness and technical savvy to the table.

Our stack currently includes among other things:

 * React * Reflux * Webpack (HMR) * Bootstrap * Less * Node * Express * Parse Server * MongoDB * AWS * Python * Git

 * Even if you don't know our whole stack, you learn fast. * You have some demonstrable experience developing software (links, github repos, etc) * Can communicate in English.
If you are interested in helping us transform how skincare is found online, you're good at some of the technologies mentioned above, and you fill most of our requirements: please shoot me an email to this base64 encoded address: c2FtdWxpQHJldmlldmUuY29t

curbside 10 hours ago 2 replies      
Take a stab at our little challenge and ensure your CV gets reviewed by our team: curl https://challenge.curbside.comCurbside is enabling a new way to shop, built for the era of instant mobile commerce. The Curbside app makes it easy to find, buy and pickup products at nearby stores. Curbside searches realtime local inventory across retailers and uses location-based technologies to alert stores when a customer is arriving for a pickup. Curbside helps consumers quickly get what they need and helps retailers better serve their increasingly mobile centric customers. The Curbside Merchant Console enables alerts to staff as customers arrive to pick up orders and also manages online order workflow.

Curbsides investors include Sutter Hill Ventures, Index Ventures, Jerry Yangs AME Cloud Ventures, Qualcomm Ventures, Eric Schmidts Innovation Endeavors, OReilly AlphaTech Ventures, Gil Elbaz & David Waxmans TenOneTen and Chicago Ventures.

Tech Stack: Clojure, Python, Javascript, iOS, Android, Elasticsearch

Problem space: mobile commerce, big data, search, machine learning, reverse engineering, distributed systems, location services, user experience.

https://curbside.com/jobs Palo Alto, Ca. Relocation Available Sorry at this time we cannot sponsor NEW H-1Bs, but we can transfer existing visas and sponsor new E3s, TNs, and O-1s.

antoniadiener 12 hours ago 1 reply      
Mark43 | Various engineering roles| New York, NY / Toronto | ONSITE | https://www.mark43.com/jobs/

Fight crime with code

We build software that literally helps save lives. Our clients are police departments, firefighters and EMTs.

Be a part of an awesome team in a fast-growing startup (featured on multiple next startups to break out lists). Learn more here: https://www.mark43.com/jobs/

Back-end: Java ElasticSearch Kafka

Front-end: React Redux JavaScript


[Sr|Mid-level] Back End Engineer

[Sr|Mid-level] Front End Engineer

[Sr|Mid-level] Mobile Engineer

[Sr] Information Security Officer

erik_p 4 hours ago 0 replies      
GreatSchools | Oakland, CA | ONSITE | Full Time Software Engineer (Ruby on Rails & React)

GreatSchools is a national non-profit that reaches half the families with children in the US.

GreatSchools is looking for a talented and passionate software engineer with a focus on web development to join our team.


rkrzr 7 hours ago 0 replies      
Channable - https://www.channable.com | Utrecht, The Netherlands | ONSITE

Channable is a data feed management company that connects ecommerce companies to all big online marketing channels (marketplaces, price comparison sites etc.)We also optimize and synchronize product data, offers and orders on the various platforms.

We currently have two open positions for a Backend Engineer and a DevOps Engineer.

Our Stack includes: Python (Flask), Scala (Apache Spark), Haskell, PostgreSQL, Redis, HDFS, Ansible, Ember.js

We process millions of products per day and offer technically interesting and challenging work. We are looking for highly motivated and skilled engineers to join our team in the city center of Utrecht.

See https://www.channable.com/jobs/ for a detailed job description.

ohnoozz 9 hours ago 0 replies      
Zerocopter - https://www.zerocopter.com | Amsterdam, NL | Fulltime, REMOTE / ONSITE

Zerocopter is an Amsterdam-based company specialized in helping companies secure their (web) applications. We expose vulnerabilities using a dedicated worldwide crew of white-hat hackers, advanced scanners and running responsible disclosure programs.

We are a team of 14 people based in Amsterdam and Assen. Don't let our size fool you: we are providing solutions to companies (very) big and small. Security has become a top-of-mind topic in boardrooms and Zerocopter has established itself as a trusted and highly skilled company.

Zerocopter is looking for a Ruby on Rails developer. You will be able to work on all aspects of our systems, front-end as well as back-end. We have a strong sense of keeping things simple, we don't have many meetings and each member of the dev team has the opportunity to design and contribute to important features.

@recruiters: we're not interested.


 - Solid grasp of a dynamically typed language such as Ruby or Python - Several years of experience with a web development framework like Rails or Django - Good UNIX skills - Sufficient git fu - If you are remote: your timezone should be +/- 2 hours Central European Time and you should live close to Amsterdam (less than 2 hours flight time) due to meetings.
Want to join this killer team? https://zerocopter.recruitee.com/o/software-engineer/c/new

ntenenz 4 hours ago 0 replies      
MGH & BWH Center for Clinical Data Science | Lots of positions | Boston, MA | ONSITE only

We're a startup embedded within Partners Healthcare that is applying machine learning to medicine and is focused on commercializing the results. Thanks to our founding institutions, Massachusetts General Hospital & Brigham and Women's Hospital, we have the data to make this a reality. And with sponsorship from Nvidia and GE, we have the compute and financial resources as well.

We're a new organization and are trying to grow pretty aggressively. We are hiring across the board, and those who join us would have a voice in determining our stack. Reqs are open for Back End & Front End Engineers, Data Scientists, Data Engineers, and PMs. If you're interested, feel free to PM me with any questions.


awwducks 4 hours ago 0 replies      
EnergySavvy | Seattle, WA | Cambridge, MA | Onsite


EnergySavvy is on a mission to help solve one of the worlds biggest challenges: energy. We work with electric and gas providers across the country to improve the way consumers and businesses interact with energy at work and in their homes, and better serve their customers.

To give you a sense of our favorite technologies, our team works with: Flask, Python, React, Git, and PostgreSQL, but we dont expect you to walk in the door knowing them.

Were hiring for a few key roles in our Cambridge and Seattle offices:


Software Engineer: http://bit.ly/2pBy6yQ

Client Engagement Professional: http://bit.ly/2pBxPfi


Software Engineer: http://bit.ly/2qmpUTQ

---Flexible Location:---

Director of Client Solutions: http://bit.ly/2oRoW2b


Email christine at energysavvy.com to find out more or apply online.

beghbali 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Grand Rounds | Kafka/Spark/Cassandra Engineer | SF | Onsite | Fulltime | https://www.grandrounds.com

We are building a leading edge/first-time in healthcare data platform to identify patients and their journey in healthcare and help them access best care and optimize their outcomes.

If you are skilled at APIs, Kafka, Spark, Cassandra, Presto, if you wanna change health care and improve people's lives, if you like working in a fast paced environment, send your resume to:


Also looking for a staff distributed search engineer. If you consider yourself an expert in search and sub 100ms performance, let us know.

Happy Thursday!

silverthorn 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Angaza | Devices Team Lead | SF | ONSITE