hacker news with inline top comments    .. more ..    31 Jan 2017 Best
home   ask   best   2 years ago   
Paralyzed man regains use of arms and hands after experimental stem cell therapy usc.edu
869 points by jpgvm  4 days ago   174 comments top 23
martyvis 4 days ago 2 replies      
The Australian of the Year (just announced yesterday, January 26th being our national day), was Emeritus Professor Alan Mackay-Sim http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-26/the-amazing-work-of-pr...

He performed pioneering work taking a type of adult stem cell from the nose and showing how it can be be used for spinal repair. A polish paraplegic, Darek Fidyka, regained the ability to walk following surgery in 2014 using this research findings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darek_Fidyka

Xcelerate 4 days ago 7 replies      
This is very exciting. This type of work can even benefit people who aren't paralyzed damaged cartilage can also be repaired this way.

When I ran track in college, I somehow developed focal cartilage defects in both knees. This brought my running career to a halt and made walking extremely painful for about a year. In an attempt to fix this, I had a type of surgery known as the OATS procedure performed. This is where the surgeon takes a plug of undamaged articular cartilage from a low load bearing region of the knee and swaps it with the damaged cartilage. Walking is mostly pain-free for me now, but it still hurts too much if I attempt to run.

As though one cartilage injury weren't enough, I somewhat stupidly decided to take up weight lifting after I couldn't run anymore and attempted to set down a barbell that was way too heavy for me. In doing so, I triggered a mild lower lumbar disc herniation. So now I have two permanent injuries. Luckily, neither injury is very severe, so some days I don't even notice the pain while other days it approaches mildly annoying "background noise".

These types of cartilage injuries are common, and arthritis is even more common. But the issue with cartilage is that once it's damaged, it doesn't heal on its own because cartilage has no vascular system. You can break all the bones you want and eventually they will heal, but damaged hyaline cartilage will not. The best that your body can do is to produce "low-quality" fibrocartilage in place of the damaged hyaline cartilage.

Fortunately, there's been a lot of research over the last decade on using mesenchymal stem cells (taken from your own bone marrow) to regrow true hyaline cartilage as opposed to fibrocartilage. The stem cells have actually been shown to differentiate into hyaline cartilage. For me, this has the potential to permanently alleviate both knee and back pain. Moving this research away from clinical trials seems to be taking forever for some reason though...

neuronexmachina 4 days ago 3 replies      
Given that their methodology uses embryonic stem cells, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out in the US with opponent Tom Price as head of Health & Human Services.

> The stem cell procedure Kris received is part of a Phase 1/2a clinical trial that is evaluating the safety and efficacy of escalating doses of AST-OPC1 cells developed by Fremont, California-based Asterias Biotherapeutics. AST-OPC1 cells are made from embryonic stem cells by carefully converting them into oligodendrocyte progenitor cells (OPCs), which are cells found in the brain and spinal cord that support the healthy functioning of nerve cells. In previous laboratory studies, AST-OPC1 was shown to produce neurotrophic factors, stimulate vascularization and induce remyelination of denuded axons. All are critical factors in the survival, regrowth and conduction of nerve impulses through axons at the injury site, according to Edward D. Wirth III, MD, PhD, chief medical director of Asterias and lead investigator of the study, dubbed SCiStar.

startupdiscuss 4 days ago 2 replies      
Despite all the cynicism, there are still wonderful things about good old medicine and science.

90 days!Paralysis to utility!

Is someone going to tell me something like: oh, the nerve wasn't completely severed so recovery might have happened anyway?

Well, go ahead, but in the meantime I am enjoying this news.

obeone 4 days ago 1 reply      
Here is the December 14 2016 update to that story:http://keck.usc.edu/stem-cell-therapy-gives-paralyzed-man-se...
willholloway 4 days ago 3 replies      
Stem cells are showing more and more promise. One thing we know about them is that young stem cells are better than old ones. I think there is a lot of promise in stem cell banking.

I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but do plan on banking my own stem cells while I'm in my early 30's because parts of me will inevitably start to break down in the coming decades, and I really like the idea of tapping my own young cells when I am old to heal some of that.

The only company I know of that is doing this is Forever Labs, https://www.foreverlabs.co/, I am not associated with them, I just think they are on the right track with stem-cell banking and have spoken to one of the founders and was pretty excited about what they were doing and think its something worth supporting, which is why I'm writing this comment.

tokenadult 4 days ago 0 replies      
The patient's age being twenty-one may have made a difference in this happy news story. My dad had a slip and fall on ice at age seventy-two that left him paralyzed from the chin down until he died six years later. He had had a similar injury from a car crash (back when cars didn't have seat belts) at age eighteen, from which he recovered fully (although he wasn't so paralyzed from the first injury). So when he had his second injury, he at first thought he would also recover from that injury. Maybe because the second injury aggravated damage to his spine still remaining from his first injury, or maybe just because he was a lot older when injured the second time, he never recovered much at all from the second injury. His experience reminds me how many other people in a family are affected by spinal cord injuries, and thus how important it is to find better treatments for them.

So it's hard to say how wide a range of patients will be treatable with the new technique, but that's what medical research is for: to find out what helps for which patients. I hope further research continues on this and other treatments for spinal cord injuries.

pdimitar 4 days ago 3 replies      
Can somebody explain the stem cell therapy to a complete laic like myself? I don't mean links to science articles, I mean a description you would attempt projecting at me if we were having a beer.

For me the stem cells are some sort of a magical Wolverine regeneration sauce. Never understood why they even work.

overcast 4 days ago 0 replies      
It's exciting to know that paralysis will be a thing of the past in potentially our near future. Deafness/Blindness/Cancer/etc all benefits from these studies.
cpncrunch 4 days ago 1 reply      
It says it is a clinical trial, but I can't find the actual study, only another press release:


We really need to wait until the clinical trial publishes its results to know whether or not the treatment works. This person might have recovered naturally without any treatment.

MR4D 3 days ago 0 replies      
Odd comment - what's neat to me about this article on HN is that nobody has said "clickbait" or misleading title. That this kind of title can represent reality shows what amazing times we live in.

The level of medical awesomeness is off the charts - so many people can now start to hope for not just a better life, but a radically better life.

warcher 4 days ago 0 replies      
One really important caveat here-- nature abhors a vacuum, and spinal cord injuries are no exception. A chronic injury to the spinal column will result in scar tissue coming in over the wound, which is a totally separate issue from the initial injury. If your spinal cord injury is over a month old, you have a completely separate problem, ie, how to clear out the scar tissue so that nerve regeneration is even possible.
aphextron 3 days ago 0 replies      
I know that directly correlating a recovery with a specific therapy is really hard to do. There have been many stem cell studies like this in the past which have shown similar seemingly miraculous results, even though it's not entirely certain whether the patient would have recovered otherwise or if something else was responsible. Paralyzed people inexplicably regain motor control all the time. I'd be curious to know how rigorous the study was in regards to control.
narrator 4 days ago 3 replies      
Meanwhile, 9 years ago in China, people were already receiving this kind of therapy, but nobody believed them[1]. As Gibson has said, "The future is already here, it's just not evenly distributed."


rce123 4 days ago 1 reply      
After an accident such as this, is there a point at which it's too late to perform this type of injection? Asking for someone in a similar situation.
avenoir 4 days ago 0 replies      
I believe the same article was already posted here a few months back. Regardless, it would be interesting to know how much functionality this young man will gain after his rehabilitation. Stuff like this is hard to believe to be 100% effective, at least at this stage of our understanding and use of stem cells. But man this is absolutely astounding if it helps him regain even like 30% of his limbs.
keeganjw 4 days ago 0 replies      
Congrats! I feel so happy for this guy. Awesome news!
mercurialshark 4 days ago 0 replies      
I remember an earlier article highlighting the potential benefits of olfactory stem cells for damaged brain tissue repair.

Engraftment of human nasal olfactory stem cells restores neuroplasticity in mice with hippocampal lesions


thomyorkie 4 days ago 0 replies      
Could this possibly lead to a cure for neuro-degenerative diseases like parkinson's and ALS?
rudolf0 4 days ago 1 reply      
Could stem cell therapy be used to potentially improve existing muscular or neurological connections in normally functioning individuals? Kind of like a whole-body neurotropic.
DamnInteresting 4 days ago 0 replies      
Note that this was published several months ago, in September 2016. So if this news sounds familiar, that's probably why.
uptownfunk 4 days ago 1 reply      
Is there a greatly increased risk for cancer from stem cell use given these are cells that have a high rate of proliferation?
toodlebunions 3 days ago 0 replies      
Amazing, stem cell therapy has so much potential.
First they came for the Iranians scottaaronson.com
991 points by aaronyy  4 days ago   427 comments top 46
throwaway2131 4 days ago 31 replies      
I am an Iranian CS student. I had a fully funded PhD admission at one of the US universities. I was admitted for the Fall 2016 semester.

I am currently in Iran due to my visa not being issued despite the 7 months I have waited for it. I was able to defer my admission to Spring 2017 semester, but then _this_ happened.

I am quite sure that I will never be able to attend this program. I had very high hopes for my future because of this admission.

I was very sad today after hearing this news. I have to come up with a new plan for my life, since it never occurred to me that I would not be able to attend.

Edit: Thanks for all the support from the HN community.

salimmadjd 4 days ago 3 replies      
Trump is ostensibly using the 9/11 play card to justify banning few muslim countries [0]. This is obviously a lie, since most of 911 hijackers were Saudis and his executive order is not banning the Saudis. I'm guessing on the strength of the Saudi lobby in DC [1] AND/OR Trump's potential business conflict in Saudi Arabia [2].

[0] https://www.scribd.com/document/337545704/Draft-Executive-Or...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia_lobby_in_the_Unit...

[2] http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/donald-t...

mikeash 4 days ago 4 replies      
Holy shit:

> U.S. permanent residents (green card holders) who are outside of the United States may be barred from reentry.

That's huge. I don't mean to diminish the importance of banning new immigrants and visitors on a religious basis, that's bad too. But banning people who have already legally immigrated from re-entering the country is completely nuts. There are no doubt people who have lived in this country for decades who happen to be abroad at the moment and are now stuck away from their homes for an unknown period. There will be people who have lived in this country for decades who will be faced with an illness or death in the family and will have to make a choice between going to visit or retaining their ability to stay where they live.

tabeth 4 days ago 4 replies      
I abhor Trump, but something about this statement irks me:

> To the Trump regime, I make one request: if you ever decide that its the policy of the US government to deport my PhD students, then deport me first. Im practically begging you: come to my house, arrest me, revoke my citizenship, and tear up the awards Ive accepted at the White House and the State Department. Id consider that to be the greatest honor of my career.

Given the pedestal that you (presumably, by the amount of points this has gotten) are on, there are more actionable ways to be useful, rather than be a martyr. No mention in the post on how to stop Trump. For example, telling your readers how they can take action to stop Trump. I'll share some of my own thoughts on how to do this. Feel free to respond to this if it's not exhaustive enough.

To follow my own advice, if anyone sees this:

1. Call

 - Local congresspeople (http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/) - Senators (https://www.senate.gov/senators/contact/) - Local officials (https://www.usa.gov/elected-officials)
2. Participate

 - Get involved in local elections (this is a decent start - to become informed locally http://www.npr.org/stations/) - Protest - Attend town hall and city council meetings (see npr)
3. Share

 - Tell your friends 
4. Vote (https://www.usa.gov/register-to-vote)

5. Volunteer

6. Stop reading and start doing one of the other things.

fdschoeneman 4 days ago 2 replies      
It's unclear what Trump is trying to accomplish here. It seems stupid and I feel bad for the people whose lives it diverts or puts in hold. But the Nazi comparison either trivializes the Holocaust or unfairly hitlerizes Donald Trump for what may be a legitimate concern over technology transfer to a country that actively opposes US interests. There are plenty of countries that suspend student visas without going on to murder millions of people, and indeed we did exactly that under Jimmy Carter for much longer than thirty days. Standing up for students and education and science is an important duty for a professor, and I hope he'll continue with it, but this kind of hyperbole doesn't seem helpful.
corndoge 4 days ago 1 reply      
"Today, we learned that Trump is suspending the issuance of US visas to people from seven majority-Islamic countries, including Iran (but strangely not Saudi Arabia, the cradle of Wahhabist terrorism)."

And yet, from the very source linked in the article--

"Details about the forthcoming executive orders are still unconfirmed. But heres what we can say with high confidence."

If you trust AP, then sure, it's likely that it will happen. But it's still important to draw a distinction between "has done" or "is doing" and "is expected to do". Articles like this, posted before any official announcement, are merely adding to the Trump hysteria.

helpfulanon 4 days ago 4 replies      
What's more worrisome is how fervently anti-science the new administration is. Academics may eventually be persecuted in the US across the board - as they are already at the EPA, USDA etc - and regardless of citizenship.

I firmly believe anyone with a brain should begin making contingency plans to regroup somewhere like Australia or Japan, outside of the reaches of far-right populism. An Erdogan-style academic purge may be on the agenda and sooner than we think

aphextron 4 days ago 3 replies      
This is completely unacceptable, and truly crosses the line. I have many Iranian coworkers and friends here in the bay area. The thought of branding them as terrorists and revoking their work or student visas is absolutely unbelievable. I think the Trump administration and the GOP are in for a rude awakening if they think these policies are going to stand.
jekdoce 4 days ago 6 replies      
Advice from a high-level staffer for a Senator:

There are two things that everyone concerned should be doing all the time right now, and they're by far the most important things.

You should NOT be bothering with online petitions or emailing.

1. The best thing you can do to be heard and get your congressperson to pay attention is to have face-to-face time - if they have town halls, go to them. Go to their local offices. If you're in DC, try to find a way to go to an event of theirs. Go to the "mobile offices" that their staff hold periodically (all these times are located on each congressperson's website). When you go, ask questions. A lot of them. And push for answers. The louder and more vocal and present you can be at those the better.

2. But, those in-person events don't happen every day. So, the absolute most important thing that people should be doing every day is calling. You should make 6 calls a day: 2 each (DC office and your local office) to your 2 Senators & your 1 Representative.

Any sort of online contact basically gets immediately ignored, and letters pretty much get thrown in the trash (unless you have a particularly strong emotional story - but even then it's not worth the time it took you to craft that letter).

Calls are what all the congresspeople pay attention to. Every single day, the Senior Staff and the Senator get a report of the 3 most-called-about topics for that day at each of their offices (in DC and local offices), and exactly how many people said what about each of those topics. They're also sorted by zip code and area code. Republican callers generally outnumber Democrat callers 4-1, and when it's a particular issue that single-issue-voters pay attention to (like gun control, or planned parenthood funding, etc...), it's often closer to 11-1, and that's recently pushed Democratic congressmen on the fence to vote with the Republicans. In the last 8 years, Republicans have called, and Democrats haven't.

So, when you call:

A) When calling the DC office, ask for the Staff member in charge of whatever you're calling about ("Hi, I'd like to speak with the staffer in charge of Healthcare, please") - local offices won't always have specific ones, but they might. If you get transferred to that person, awesome. If you don't, that's ok - ask for their name, and then just keep talking to whoever answered the phone. Don't leave a message (unless the office doesn't pick up at all - then you can...but it's better to talk to the staffer who first answered than leave a message for the specific staffer in charge of your topic).

B) Give them your zip code. They won't always ask for it, but make sure you give it to them, so they can mark it down. Extra points if you live in a zip code that traditionally votes for them, since they'll want to make sure they get/keep your vote.

C) If you can make it personal, make it personal. "I voted for you in the last election and I'm worried/happy/whatever" or "I'm a teacher, and I am appalled by Betsy DeVos," or "as a single mother" or "as a white, middle class woman," or whatever.

D) Pick 1-2 specific things per day to focus on. Don't go down a whole list - they're figuring out what 1-2 topics to mark you down for on their lists. So, focus on 1-2 per day. Ideally something that will be voted on/taken up in the next few days, but it doesn't really matter - even if there's not a vote coming up in the next week, call anyway. It's important that they just keep getting calls.

E) Be clear on what you want - "I'm disappointed that the Senator..." or "I want to thank the Senator for their vote on..." or "I want the Senator to know that voting in _____ way is the wrong decision for our state because..." Don't leave any ambiguity.

F) They may get to know your voice/get sick of you - it doesn't matter. The people answering the phones generally turn over every 6 weeks anyway, so even if they're really sick of you, they'll be gone in 6 weeks.From experience since the election: If you hate being on the phone & feel awkward (which is a lot of people) don't worry about it - there are a bunch of scripts (Indivisible has some, there are lots of others floating around these day). After a few days of calling, it starts to feel a lot more natural. Put the 6 numbers in your phone (all under P Politician. An example is McCaskill MO, Politician McCaskill DC, Politician Blunt MO, etc...) which makes it really easy to click down the list each day.

misingnoglic 4 days ago 0 replies      
This is the first time in my life that I don't feel safe in my own country. There is literally no difference between me (someone born in the US whose parents came here from Iran in the 90s), and people my age living in Iran right now who want to come to the US for a better education.
amasad 4 days ago 4 replies      
The ban on Iranians has nothing to do with terrorism. I might be wrong but I don't think there are any real Shiite terror group. And yes I don't think it's fitting to call Hazbollah as a terrorist group -- the same label that you'd give Al Qaeda or ISIS. I honestly can't think of a time where a Shiite group was responsible for indiscriminate killing.
csomar 4 days ago 2 replies      
Wow. This is more hostile than I ever imagined. Banning 70 million people from Iran when there is no terrorism link for the country is, at best, idiotic. (Iran is anti-ISIS and apart from its conflict with the US has no precedent of terrorism)

I'm really speechless.

CptJamesCook 4 days ago 1 reply      
People seem more upset that Trump is not letting people into the country than that Obama has been dropping bombs on 6 of these countries.

I'm not wild about the Trump immigration ban on these countries, but I really, really hope he ends these wars.

namirez 4 days ago 0 replies      
This is the draft of the executive order. Section 3 explains how the US entry ban could be extended indefinitely. http://documents.latimes.com/read-draft-copy-president-trump...
dmode 4 days ago 3 replies      
It's amazing that some nations are deemed terrorist by American government, which itself is responsible for the deaths of most innocent civilians over the last century. Starting with dropping the atomic bomb in Hiroshima, funding Mujhadeen on Afghanistan, installing Shah in Iran, toppling Saddam Hussein, Indirectly funding terrorism in Kashmir, and all the mess in South America. What's the best guess ? 10 million innocent civilians killed ?
cancancan 4 days ago 0 replies      
The more things change, the more they stay the same.[1]

In his 2007 interview[2,3] general Wesley Clark spoke about the plan to take out 7 countries in 5 years (Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Iran). Bush went to war with Iraq. Obama ravaged Libya and Syria. Six of those seven countries are on the Trump's visa ban list. At least he has no plans for new wars, for now I guess.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd6vR1J0_6A

[2] interview transcript: https://www.democracynow.org/2007/3/2/gen_wesley_clark_weigh...

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfx2vtq_HDM

akssri 4 days ago 0 replies      
This is just too sad. Iranians at grad school often struck me as incredibly smart - be it students or faculty.

The recent breakthrough in TSP approximation was due to an Iranian; the woman who won the Field's prize earlier was one too! They are a tiny nation but are very well represented.

They were already at the receiving end of the stick under Obama, having to deal with the sanction and single entry student visas.

These policies make no sense considering their distinctions as immigrants; it's an affront to one's humanity TBH.

notgood 4 days ago 0 replies      
fowlerpower 4 days ago 1 reply      
What I don't get is, it is obviously against everything we stand for and for sure not in line with our constitution to discriminate based on religion. After all, religious freedom was one of the reasons they founded our country.

Given all of that I don't understand why we can't sue? Take this to the Supreme Court? They didn't use any religion in the executive action but it is so clearly targeted at one individual religion that it could easily be struck down...

Gargoyle 4 days ago 0 replies      
There is this section in the draft order, which presumably could allow for phd students to enter the US as being in the national interest.

(g) Notwithstanding a suspension pursuant to subsection (c) of this section or pursuant toa Presidential proclamation described in subsection (e) ofthis section, the Secretaries ofState and Homeland Security may, on a case-by-case basis, and when in the nationalinterest, issue visas or other immigration benefits to nationals of countries for which visasand benefits are otherwise blocked.

misingnoglic 4 days ago 1 reply      
I really can't believe this. First the US goes into Iran, and destabilizes the popular government (see: 1953). Now, after literally no threat from any Iranian immigrants, they ban them. Good thing my parents came here before, I guess??
amasad 4 days ago 0 replies      
I had trouble loading the page, here is a google-cache url: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...
mistermann 4 days ago 1 reply      
This is obviously extremely unfortunate for those involved, I predict it will be very short lived but we'll have to wait and see.

One thing I like about this sort of controversy though is perhaps some day, some people might start wondering who these mullahs are and how they came to be. Now that type of conversation would be rather uncomfortable, and I suspect is somewhat of an underlying cause of a lot of the hand wringing we're seeing from various government agencies.

EDIT: Interesting I've got two downvotes already, do people think the interesting history of the leadership of Iran is some sort of a conspiracy theory?

JumpCrisscross 4 days ago 2 replies      
Does the President have the power to unilaterally impose exit-visa requirements?
danans 4 days ago 1 reply      
The strength of this professor's protest comes from that fact that he puts skin in the game via his request to be deported himself before his students are. Self-sacrifice sends a powerful message, and in my recollection, many consequential protests from history have been grounded in it.
wyager 4 days ago 1 reply      
It always surprises me how countries don't offer automatic citizenship for people either working towards or who have already received advanced degrees in scientific/engineering fields. Surely there are few better ways to achieve technological superiority, either for economic or military reasons. It also tends to filter out religious extremists, if that's your justification for immigration restrictions in the first place.
throwaway883443 4 days ago 1 reply      
> First they came for the Iranians

No, first they came for the immigrants, muslims, women, and leftists with this guys good conscience. Then Trump was elected on those premises and came for the Iranians. But somehow he's surprised when it affects him personally?

aussieguy123 4 days ago 0 replies      
If the worst happens and students get deported, the universities should find a way to at least allow the students to finish their degrees remotely over the internet. Then they can gift Australia or another country their skills.
spangry 4 days ago 0 replies      
I think this is the most troubling part of the draft order, given it seems unlikely the Iranian government would be predisposed to co-operating (especially if the 'requested information' is designed to pander to a xenophobic constituency, rather than protect the US from the communists/terrorists/lizard people):

(d) Immediately upon receipt of the report described in subsection (b) of this section regarding the information needed for adjudications, the Secretary of State shall request all foreign governments that do not supply such information to start providing such information regarding their nationals within 60 days of notication.

(e) After the 60-day period described in subsection (d) of this section expires, the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State, shall submit to the President a list of countries recommended for inclusion on a Presidential proclamation that would prohibit the entry of foreign nationals (excluding those foreign nationals traveling on diplomatic visas, North Atlantic Treaty Organization visas, and C- 2 visas for travel to the United Nations) from countries that do not provide the information requested pursuant to subsection (d) of this order until compliance occurs.

EDIT: In Section 3

thowfaraway 4 days ago 5 replies      
It would be healthier for everyone if there was less speculative outrage. This doesn't affect anyone in the country. It just says if you are trying to get a visa from a country where we think there is a terrorism risk, that country needs to be able to provide screening info on the person, or else we won't provide a visa. It is targeting Syrian refugees, not Iranian PhDs.
andrewclunn 4 days ago 2 replies      
I can see the point of a broad stroke policy that does not make exceptions, in that it makes enforcement that much easier. Of course whether there's an actual goal here or this is just posturing to make good on the "tough on immigration" campaign talk is anybody's guess.
tvural 4 days ago 0 replies      
In case anyone else didn't know, this is what the title references:


finid 4 days ago 0 replies      
Including Iran on that list baffled me, too.
mmrezaie 4 days ago 1 reply      
How come this post went from "the top" to "where I cannot find it anymore"!?
jlarocco 4 days ago 0 replies      
> This time, its taken just five days, since the hostile takeover of the US by its worst elements

Stopped reading there. I don't agree with his immigration policy at all, but we voted and Trump won fair and square.

Breefield 4 days ago 0 replies      
This is the strength we need. Respect.
zeroer 4 days ago 0 replies      
"This time, its taken just five days, since the hostile takeover of the US by its worst elements"

Really? This is they way you see it?

HeavenBanned 4 days ago 4 replies      
My father successfully brought over two of our relatives from Iran during the Obama presidency (thanks Obama). They were a doctor and a professional soccer player. However, the other application for his older sister and my mother's brother has been processing for nearly 20 years. She's nearing her 70s. And my mother's brother has all but lost hope.

Looks like it's not going to ever happen under Mr. Trump.

Oh well. I wouldn't say it's as urgent as having PhD-level brains here...but it's too bad. We're doing the process right. We're doing it legally. We're following all the proper procedure and making sure that nothing is overlooked or done to cheat the process.

My father (who voted for Trump) is in complete denial: he thinks "The people around Trump told him to do that."

Very sad.

sb057 4 days ago 1 reply      
stefantalpalaru 4 days ago 0 replies      
This is bad, but the alternative was worse: https://www.reddit.com/r/DNCleaks/comments/5945ho/hillary_ju...

[remember not to vote on Reddit if you land with an external HTTP Referer or you risk being banned for 3 days on the whole site for participating in a "voting brigade"]

guard-of-terra 4 days ago 4 replies      
Lucadg 4 days ago 0 replies      
Every country is a platform. When it attracts the best users it succeeds. When it doesn't, or even worse rejects them, it's bound to fail.
pknerd 4 days ago 1 reply      
>not Saudi Arabia, the cradle of Wahhabist terrorism.

I read it and it seems Author was OK with it if KSA was banned by Trump.

Author is biased or innocent as he has no idea of terrorism promoted by Iran in Syria and Iraq.

redleggedfrog 4 days ago 0 replies      
<sarcasm>Those PhD's should be for 'mericans, not furners.</sarcasm>
threeseed 4 days ago 3 replies      
Such a cynical yet poorly thought out policy.

Firstly, many people involved in terrorist incidents are natural born citizens of allied countries. So are we going to ban all French or Belgium citizens given they have been shown to harbor terrorists ? It's clear that Trump/Bannon desperately want a Muslim ban as opposed to a Iran/Iraq/etc ban.

Secondly, this is going to alienate moderate Muslims who Western intelligence agencies have unanimously and categorically stated are the only people capable of solving this problem of radicalisation. It's often their children or friends or community members who are being radicalised. Why should they help the US government when they are encouraging the public to hate them purely based on their religion ?

soheil 4 days ago 2 replies      
This is part of the game that must be played to win against the government of Iran, people of that country have been treated like pawns in a chess game for long, certainly this is not something new. While the outrage is understandable, policy should not be made based on how it makes people feel. Iran is a country that deserves so much more, but it is seized by a ruling elite that does not share its values. I wish people who show so much outrage against Trump would acknowledge the above and in that new light instead show their support for the people of Iran in this unfortunate situation that they find themselves in.
Time to Take a Stand samaltman.com
1114 points by sama  2 days ago   979 comments top 111
tabeth 2 days ago 22 replies      
Why is that all of these posts saying to "take a stand" fail to explain the political process? I'll just quote myself here. If you want to help stop trump the most effective ways are to:

1. Call

 - Local congresspeople (http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/) - Senators (https://www.senate.gov/senators/contact/) - Local officials (https://www.usa.gov/elected-officials)
2. Participate

 - Get involved in local elections (this is a decent start - to become informed locally http://www.npr.org/stations/) - Protest - Attend town hall and city council meetings (see npr)
3. Share

 - Tell your friends 
4. Vote (https://www.usa.gov/register-to-vote)

5. Volunteer

6. Stop reading and start doing one of the other things.

djrogers 2 days ago 16 replies      
> In doing so, we should not demonize Trump votersmost of them voted for him for reasons other than the promise of a Muslim ban. We need their eventual support in resisting actions like these, and we will not get it if we further isolate them.

This is very important people - calling everyone who voted for Trump a racist homophobe, a moron, and not deserving of the franchise is not going to help anything. I didn't vote for Trump, but I do identify with some of the beliefs of those who did, and I can tell you that the rhetoric I'm hearing from many of the most vocal left is pushing the middle away.

general_ai 2 days ago 11 replies      
First, it's not a "ban". It's a temporary suspension until new vetting procedures are put in place.

Second, it's not "Muslim". Muslims from all other countries (some of them pretty large, e.g. Indonesia and Pakistan), will experience no change in their ability to enter the US.

Other than Iran (which imo shouldn't be on the list) we're bombing and droning all of those countries at the moment. It's insane to accept military age males from there for entry into the country, particularly if information about them is very sparse (which in war torn countries it typically is).

But there's another aspect of this that baffles me. Somehow Sam has no issues with democrats totally destabilizing the Middle East, and funding/arming ISIS to depose Assad. Yet the moment Trump attempts to mitigate the negative side effects of that to this country, "it's time to take a stand". The time to take a stand was back when Obama and Clinton armed extremists in Iraq and Syria -- years before Trump.

zeteo 2 days ago 10 replies      
>1. Call 2. Participate 3. Share 4. Vote

This is the same kind of bullshit that's lost Hillary the election and got us here in the first place. It might have worked in the '90s to get a gold medal for Rosa Parks. It will not work in 2017 to make Trump back off his core message.

The problem here is not that your side isn't loud enough and can't get political attention for an issue. The problem is that the opposing side is too organized and too strong and already has a decided stance about your issue.

Being more strident won't help. Ostracizing people who have links to the opposing side will positively hurt.

Instead of doing all this "yell out louder" crap, any serious opposition should rather do some serious soul searching to figure out how to win back key constituencies. The only people who need to be ostracized are the idiots who got us here in the first place.

burkaman 2 days ago 3 replies      
In case anyone is still skeptical that this is really a Muslim ban and not just a blanket ban on refugees and immigrants, note that Trump has said he will give priority to Christian refugees: http://www1.cbn.com/thebrodyfile/archive/2017/01/27/brody-fi...
rayiner 2 days ago 1 reply      
The ACLU is both challenging the order and rounding up attorneys to help legal residents and Visa holders that have been prevented from entering the country. Now would be a good time to donate. https://www.aclu.org.
kcorbitt 2 days ago 2 replies      
I think that the only way to fix this long-term is by winning the hearts and minds of those who think this ban is a good idea, or who are ambivalent about it. Unfortunately, those of us who have been shrilly opposing every move Trump has ever made are perhaps the most poorly positioned to do that. Trump has successfully demonized the voice of the mainstream media and costal cultural elites, and if you're perceived as being in that group, your objections are likely to fall on deaf ears.

We need to find a way to rebuild bridges between different tribes in America, so that we can have a reasonable dialog. I don't pretend to know how to do this, but I'd love to have a discussion about how to get it done. I think that is the only way to keep Trump or someone else like him from capturing the voice of the people long term.

"How to Culture Jam a Populist in Four Easy Steps"https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2017/01/20/culturejam/

pfarnsworth 2 days ago 5 replies      
I am affected personally by this. I have extended family members from Indonesia and Malaysia in the US who are still on Green Card. Although those countries aren't affected by the ban, who knows when Trump will decide to change his mind at his whim.

But the time for talk has passed. I don't think very much is going to happen because Trump is empowered by his election victory, and he won't listen to anyone. Has he ever listened to anyone, even during his celebrity-only days? To think that you can actively engage him in a conversation is not the way to do this.

What is needed is to prepare for the 2018 and 2020 elections RIGHT NOW. We need an organized social media structure where all of the positive, democracy-pro candidates in every electoral district gets publicized and supported. EDUCATE YOUNG PEOPLE WITH GREAT POLITICAL CANDIDATES AND MOTIVATE THEM TO VOTE. I'm not talking about just voting for the Democrats. Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans. We need a new voice that actually cares about progressive, democratic values, and actually believes in what they say. Not the same, tired politicians that play us for fools and leave us with the best of two evils.

Organize now, smash the two-party oligarchy and elect REAL POLITICIANS, hopefully young people that care about the US, not people who want to enrich themselves from the teat of government funding. You could argue that Trump was that candidate for half of Americans, as well as Sanders for the other (nearly) half. We need fresh blood, and we need to start now.

The only way to stop Trump is to silence him by breaking up the Republican Congress majority, and it's only in 2 years.

Animats 2 days ago 3 replies      
Things companies in tech can do:

- Demand to see the detailed plan for TrumpCare. What's it going to cost us? What will it do to our employees? Where are the details? That's what lobbyists are paid to find out. Employers have a big stake in this.

- Demand to see the tariff plan. So far, it's all talk, but soon it will be legislation. This has huge impacts for many businesses. Business planning and investment will stall until the details are settled. Already, you don't want to build a factory in China or Mexico. On the other side, will there be efforts to make it easier to sell into China?

- About that infrastructure thing. What kinds of projects will be supported? Roads? Internet access? Pothole repair?

- How serious is the administration about not employing illegal aliens? Will employer sanctions be increased or more stringently enforced? Will employers be going to jail? On the other side, will the enforcement be effective enough to force growers to use robotic picking? Is it time to get behind ag startups like Abundant Robotics? Get into robotic floor cleaning for commercial buildings?

- Will there be tax incentives for investing in communities in rural America? If so, how much, and when will they become available?

- Will Glass-Stegall come back? That was a Trump campaign promise, and it's in the Republican platform.

Every one of those is a real business issue, and business needs to know what's going to happen.

rcpt 2 days ago 3 replies      
I know it's an extremely antisocial position but I can't help but feel like most of Trump's immigration policies and outrageous tweets are just bait to keep our attention away from big money legislation that the 1% wants to get through.

For example, the Keystone XL and Dakota access pipelines were heavily debated, protested, and ultimately rejected under Obama but Trump just signed orders to have them built and Sam's post doesn't even mention it. Seeing Sam write about the accusations of voter fraud instead brings this quote to mind:

> The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum....

- Noam Chomsky, The Common Good

manish_gill 2 days ago 2 replies      
A majority of his voters did vote for Trump because they support his views on immigration. It's why they voted for him. To deny that is to simply deny reality just like Trump does on a daily basis.

Honest question - What will statements by tech CEOs do? Trump has a mandate given to him by the people of your country against the very elites this post is appealing to. The politicians are with him because they want to keep their power.

And am I misremembering all these powerful tech CEOs went grovelling to meet Trump and hoping to have a foot in the door with the new administration with Thiel?

These are turbulent times.

jbhatab 2 days ago 4 replies      
He clearly stated he would make strong policies regarding immigration. The American people voted for him knowing this and he's following through on it.

I'd say Protecting the Nation From Foreign Terrorist Entry Into the United States is a fitting name given everything he has said up to this point.

Whether or not you agree, this looks like the democratic process to me. Taking action against his policies after election is obviously fine, but if you cared so deeply then why didn't you do this rallying call before he got elected? He is doing exactly what he said he would do and what the people voted him in for.

* PS: I'm not endorsing Donald Trump's decisions at all.

rdtsc 2 days ago 1 reply      
Shouldn't we have been taking a stand against Obama who destabilized the region, was dropping bombs there and arming the "rebels" who had a revolving door relationship with ISIS and other such groups there.

Refugees didn't come from a vacuum and it wasn't some natural disaster. They started streaming in because the West including US has been meddling and destabilizing that part of the world.

Unfortunately it seems profiling to prevent terrorism has worked ok for Israel recently. It is not something pleasant and nice, but so far it seems there have been deadlier and more frequent terror act committed by radical Muslims in Europe than in Israel. People see the news from Europe and they don't want that here. A closer vetting of refugees from that region seems reasonable and letting them in unchecked seem irresponsible.

mjmsmith 2 days ago 1 reply      
> Almost every member of the GOP I have spoken to knows that these actions are wrong.

How about Peter Thiel? What did he say when you spoke to him?

fowlerpower 2 days ago 3 replies      
This is absolutely nuts.

Green card holders (legal permanent residents of the United States) are being turned back from the US as soon as they get to the airport. They are being forced to file waivers which can be denied.

How can legal permanent residents be denied entry? I mean this has to be breaking So many laws, how can this be ok?

mcenedella 2 days ago 4 replies      
"The executive order is tantamount to a Muslim ban" isn't quite true.

Islam by country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

1. Indonesia

2. Pakistan

3. India

4. Bangladesh

5. Nigeria

6. Iran

7. Turkey

8. Egypt

9. Algeria

10. Sudan

It's probably not a great tactic to perpetuate the American habit for making sweeping comments about the rest of the world which aren't really grounded in truth. Might be best to be scrupulously fact-based on these matters.

Scirra_Tom 2 days ago 2 replies      
I think it's shameful to have an open Trump supporter as part of the upper echelons of YCombinator (Thiel).

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But when you openly support a candidate who likes to "grab [women] by the pussy", and now is making headway into some sort of Muslim ban which was a campaign headline, how will female and muslim applicants feel if they know part of their process might be controlled by someone who finds this acceptable? Might it discourage them?

rajacombinator 2 days ago 0 replies      
Billionaire Silicon Valley tech CEOs are NOT sympathetic characters with the general public. (Or pretty much anyone outside the VC echo chamber.) Might as well ask the CEOs of Goldman Sachs and JPM to "take a stand." The only option SV has is to continue introducing bias and propaganda into their already heavily biased products.
tobltobs 2 days ago 1 reply      
Lots of hypocrisy here today. There are 11 million refuges from Syria all over the world currently. The US gave shelter to about 0.1%. Fucking ridiculous 0.1%. There wasn't any uproar to hear about that shaming fact in the US until now. But when Trump makes it harder to recruit some IT workers from the middle East the HN bubble starts screaming.
dgregd 2 days ago 1 reply      
I live in Central Europe. It is really hard from my perspective to understand all that mass hysteria in US, especially in California. Maybe overdosing leftist propaganda causes that hysteria.

Many products of Silicon Valley and Hollywood companies are simply blocked in China. Mainly to protect Chinese young companies. As far I known Google is completely blocked in China. Hollywood movies are also not freely distributed in China. And for some reason it is Trump accused of acting against free trade. What should be the right reaction for Chinese protectionism? More know-how transfer to the land of democracy?

And if you really care about Muslim countries then explain to me: why the PhD brain drain is so good for these countries?

jacquesm 2 days ago 4 replies      
The time to take stand was 3 months ago. Things will get a lot worse now before they can get better and no amount of blogging is going to change that.

Trump is hell bent on destroying America from within and his followers (who we are not supposed to criticize) are A-Ok with that.

Soon to be seen in a theater near you in Europe as well.

467568985476 2 days ago 1 reply      
Sama, I appreciate your taking a stand on this, but how do you reconcile YCombinator's ties with Peter Thiel? Actions speak loud than words, and so far we've only seen words from you guys. Be the change you want to see in the world.
koolba 2 days ago 5 replies      
Are there any publicly pro-Trump founders in the current YC batch and, if so, how ostracized do they feel reading things like this?

EDIT: If there's no answers from the current batch (either due to sample size or general shyness), I'll pose the same question regarding past YC alumni. I find it hard to believe out of a thousand people there isn't a single Trump supporter.

brightball 2 days ago 1 reply      
Easiest way to take a stand is to be logically consistent about federal power - which means be against it always and not just when the opposition party is in charge.

If 2/3 of the country can't agree that it needs to apply to the whole country then it's a state policy and not a federal one. Embrace the 10th amendment and make nullification a common act and not some rare that people scorn. It's the agree to disagree amendment. Push it's use and you can unite this country again because half the country won't be able to impose themselves on the other half every 4 years.

mavelikara 2 days ago 0 replies      
Amusing how Silicon Valley leadership is now bleeding their hearts out when legal immigrants from some countries are discriminated against. This same crowd had stood by silently when many of their workers - legal immigrants from India and China - had been discriminated against for many years in the name of per-country-green-card-quotas.

How is "we chose to discriminate against Muslim majority countries" any different from "we chose to discriminate against populous countries"? Both look arbitrary to me.

facetube 2 days ago 2 replies      
Donald Trump and Steve Bannon's blatant disregard for objective fact is reckless and dangerous. Go too much further and talent will begin to divest from the United States for moral reasons. Your move, America.
tlogan 2 days ago 1 reply      
So Trump is a racist homophobe but he also won the elections: straight and fair. At last 45% of American population is like that - if their "economic anxiety" causes them to ignore rights of LGBT people, immigrants, latinos, blacks, and other minorities, then just imagine what they will do when there is no food on the table.

I cannot blame these people: that is how it is. But we need to accept that fact: we live in a very diverse country where there are people who do not share the same moral values as SV, NY, LA, etc.

enitihas 2 days ago 0 replies      
Reading this thread, I see people saying he is implementing his campaign promises. However, going through the thread on his victory (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12909752), most people seemed to be of the opinion that he will implement none of his election promises (eg https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12911551). It is fascinating to see how people perceive things and how they might turn out to be. I wonder what more is in store.
_callcc 2 days ago 0 replies      
People like Sam Altman are alarmed now that Trump has shown he is willing to meddle in labor markets and potentially impose protectionist labor policies. As Sam says, "This is not just a Muslim ban." Indeed not!
mavdi 2 days ago 0 replies      
This order directly affects me.

But frankly I've lost hope in any political process. I know this is a grim message, but perhaps standing idle is exactly what needs to be done.

I fear people now vote out of frasutration, and leave it to someone else to make the right choice and cancel out their vote. Perhaps it's time for everyone to realise the full force of their voting power, and perhaps it's time to trust the powers to be. That breaking social contracts will be detrimental to The society in the long run and hope that voters will realise this.

My pessimistic two cents.

010a 2 days ago 0 replies      
> Guys, Donald Trump might be President. We need to speak out in our support for Clinton.

Donald Trump becomes our democratically elected President.

> Guys, _now_ is the time to take a stand against Donald Trump.

No, the time was 6 months ago. You failed.

It is astounding to me how little respect Silicon Valley elites have for the democratic process. This article is another instance of the continued marginalization of the massive voter base who voted for Trump, and, if it were read by them, would do nothing but convince them that Trump was the right choice.

How about, instead of saying "Trump is really bad", we encourage those in power to work with him and find solutions to the problems he has highlighted that work across the isle? Sam is just perpetrating class and party politics with this article, and its infuriating.

downandout 2 days ago 1 reply      
I think that most Americans, even many Trump voters, disagree with this specific action. The problem we have now is that the left and the press have declared every single thing Trump has done both before and after the election as the worst thing that has ever befallen our nation. The press has left both Trump and the country tone-deaf.

Donald Trump is a man extremely concerned with his popularity and public image. If the media were to present a balanced and fair portrayal of the positive (or non-negative) things he does, he would be able to gauge how unpopular actions like this ban are and would probably listen to the message. But the press simply cannot contain itself - CNN, for example, has turned into HuffPo with a cable channel.

In short, the universally negative coverage of every breath Trump takes has actually empowered him. Trump will do some good things, such as making it less punitive for large corporations like Apple to repatriate foreign cash and invest it here, and he will do some bad things, like this temporary travel ban. The media will treat it all negatively, which gives him carte blanche to ignore all forms of criticism and defeats the entire purpose of the free press.

endswapper 2 days ago 0 replies      
Balderdash and blather!

This type of empty outrage and chatter serves little purpose.

Well articulated facts and solutions along with the leverage to put them in to practice or enforce them is productive. Tabeth's comments are appropriate and on point.

Sam has clearly proven he is a bright guy, but this is nothing more than a chant for a march, or a pointless drum circle. I know it feels good, and that's not a bad thing, but a call to action should have more direction.


MichaelBurge 2 days ago 0 replies      
> But the executive order from yesterday titled Protecting the Nation From Foreign Terrorist Entry Into the United States is tantamount to a Muslim ban and requires objection. I am obviously in favor of safety and rules, but broad-strokes actions targeted at a specific religious group is the wrong solution, and a first step toward a further reduction in rights.

I see this mistake a lot. "Muslim" isn't intended to target a certain religion here; it refers to citizenship status with problematic countries that happen to be predominantly Muslim. I support the "Muslim ban", but would be surprised if Trump tried to target Muslim US citizens(especially 3rd-generation US citizens, to avoid all doubt).

You might oppose the immigration controls, but it's nothing more than a rhetorical trick to say they violate religious freedom, so that you can bring up the first amendment. I don't believe the first amendment offers any protection with regards to citizenship status.

anagor 2 days ago 1 reply      
When did yc became a shill for Democratic party?
GCA10 2 days ago 0 replies      
Bravo to Sam Altman for focusing on a way to talk about immigration that will resonate outside Silicon Valley. The full-strength SV mindset plays very well in the 650 area code ... but it's less effective and sometimes downright counter-productive in a national context.

Here's the lead story on Breitbart today, demonizing Mark Zuckerberg for his position on immigration. http://www.breitbart.com/video/2017/01/28/sheriff-clarke-im-... I'm sharing it, not because I agree with a single word of it, but because it's in the mix. To convince the current Congress (or the emerging Supreme Court) of the merits of the pro-immigration case, the argument needs to be made in a way that polarizes less and enlightens more.

duncan-donuts 2 days ago 0 replies      
This isn't the tech community's responsibility. This is everyone-who-disagrees' responsibility. If the GOP doesn't. It starts with holding representative's responsible. I think you're right that big tech has a huge voice, but I can't agree with the idea that it's their job to Be the Guiding Light
jsperson 2 days ago 6 replies      
It makes me sad that politics has made its way to the top of HN. I'm relatively new here. One of the things I love about the community is that it has been something of an oasis over the past few months.

This is in no way intended to denigrate the esteemed author or his thesis. I'm just disappointed that we're at this point.

myblake 2 days ago 0 replies      
I think Sam's point about strength in numbers is really critical. The tech community sometimes has a little fear of being first that can rapidly shift into fear of being last, so I wonder what will cause a critical mass of tech leaders to take a stand. I think Sam is right that employees will have to provide some of the push, the New York Times article I read on this earlier mentioned an Iraqi Facebook employee in Seattle who can no longer go to Vancouver BC to visit his family for instance, so this effects us and our colleagues directly, not abstractly. I would suggest we all try and start bottom up pressure within our organizations to denounce the immingration ban, tech has always been pretty pro immigration (not always for noble reasons) so this shouldn't be a difficult sell.
fhkatari 2 days ago 0 replies      
This strikes a personal chord. Shortly after 9/11, I had taken a short trip back to India. I was transitioning from a student to work visa, and got held up indefinitely by the US consulate. It was a grueling experience, but what I remember most is how my employer stood by me. They contacted our local congressman, kept me employed, and even paid me for the time I could not work (two months), at a time when they were a struggling start-up. I know I am not the only immigrant who has experienced the incredible generosity of this country. For beneficiaries like us, it is all the more important to speak up, and take actions to welcome and support the next generation that wants a shot at the American Dream.
aidanrocke 2 days ago 0 replies      
A lot of people in the comments below are fussing over whetherthere is a Muslim ban. Well, think about it for two seconds.

1. This doesn't set a good precedent. 2. Donald Trump is aiming for a Muslim ban. He said so during the elections.

He said it during the elections: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trum...

At this point I'm surprised by how many people are bickering over this. Why don't you guys just say that you voted for Donald Trump? That would simplify the discussion.

dgudkov 1 day ago 0 replies      
US immigration policy became broken long time ago. Why the rage only now? I'm not a US citizen and entering the US used to be a major headache every time. Every freaking time. Nobody cared during Obama's time but now all of a sudden it's "time to take a stand". I suspect it's way more about the despise of Trump than real concern about the current state of US immigration policy.
jsonmez 2 days ago 0 replies      
The only thing worse than mixing religion with politics is mixing business with politics.
artursapek 2 days ago 0 replies      
While you're at it, Sam, you should disassociate HN from Marky Mark for building his racist wall in Hawaii. He should be building bridges, not walls.
Mendenhall 2 days ago 0 replies      
I stopped reading as soon as I got to "Muslim ban". Muslims did not get banned.

A Muslim ban would mean any Muslim coming from any country is banned. Sad that this is the level of discourse and understanding these days.

I care more about correct terms than if you are for or against it. Stoking fears over something that does not exist is childish at best.

nkurz 2 days ago 0 replies      
Here's a link to the full text of the executive order:

Protecting the Nation From Foreign Terrorist Entry Into the United States (January 27, 2017)


yongjik 2 days ago 0 replies      
Well, at least I hope this puts rest to one particularly galling argument made by some Trump supporters: "If you take Trump literally, you don't understand him."

(...Well, one can hope, can't one?)

Never vote for a politician if you can't take him literally. He might mean it literally.

intrasight 2 days ago 0 replies      
Trump is not really a "Republican" and the real Republicans don't know how to handle him. What is sad is that it would only take two Republican senators taking a stand to block his legislative agenda. How more outrageous does he have to be before we get two such senators.
vonklaus 2 days ago 0 replies      
We need to take a stand, but I encourage everyone to look at what is happening with depth. The immigration actions are terrible, misguided and anti-Anerican BUT much like abortion or taxation this is the most distracting and highlighted issue in the media.

Surely, we should stand against such a law, and I will. But let us not do so at the expense of more dangerous and less publicized attempts to curtail freedom. This will be fought on many fronts and is much bigger than immigration. We stand to have surveillance bolstered, restriction in our movements, loss of input in our governments behavior & worse. We are entering into a world war-- which is already being fought publicly; and we need to work as a country & the global community for diplomacy and freedom.

thetruthseeker1 2 days ago 1 reply      
I hope I am not downvoted because I have a different view.

I think Trump is a show man to some degree. He has said in the past he wanted to be in Hollywood. This is important to understand what drives him.

I think what Trump is doing is a part of a show, to tell his voters he is credible. But I think his long term policies will not be this drastic even if they are. I think the tech community should work with him to do the right thing, dissenting with him is not the right way at this point in time. It is too early to decide that you are against Trump ( as a Tech community).

delegate 2 days ago 0 replies      
Tech companies must use their advertising networks to influence public opinion on these issues.

Instead of ads for products/services, they should allocate space for ethical and moral issues.

Staying 'politically' neutral is no longer an option when we're dealing with issues which affect a great part of Earth's population, like climate change, globalised economy, aggression and war and so on.

Tech companies must get political - in fact, they must reinvent politics like they reinvented so many other fields.

We have to do this now or these people will slowly shut everyone down, like they did in China, Russia, Turkey, etc..

wundering 2 days ago 0 replies      
"Almost every member of the GOP I have spoken to knows that these actions are wrong. Paul Ryan, Mike Pence, Kevin McCarthy and James Mattis said so themselves when Trump first proposed his Muslim ban"

NY Times says about Paul Ryan today [1]: "House Speaker Paul D. Ryan said it was right on target."

Which one is it?

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/28/us/trumps-immigration-ban...

protomikron 2 days ago 0 replies      
I just want to say that I appreciate Sam Altman for speaking up - I know that just speaking doesn't change things, but tech/business guys are often very cautious when discussing politics, as they fear that making their political stand public may have negative consequences to their business (which might be true), but in times like these one has to take position.

So kudos, Sam, and please America don't go the route of politics that mimic politics of Europe's 1930s (sadly there are also suboptimal developments in Europe).

MicroBerto 2 days ago 1 reply      
Can't wait to see what Altman writes when the voter fraud is investigated and it's over 3 million fraudulent votes.

We already know of 800,000 (http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jan/26/hillary-clinto...). Detroit was apparent. The rest will come easily.

What else is Altman wrong about??

jonathankoren 2 days ago 0 replies      
And yet HC killed https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13506412 earlier today.
jinushaun 1 day ago 0 replies      
Tech can also do a lot by stopping moving everyone to California. Winning the popular votes doesn't mean much when those votes only come from states that Hilary already won.
andy_ppp 2 days ago 0 replies      
Those people implementing these orders need to also take responsibility for their actions. The concentration camp guards take just as much responsibility as dictators.
hackuser 2 days ago 0 replies      
I strongly agree and I believe what Sam is doing is essential: People are hard wired to follow social norms, as I once heard a social scientist describe it. If we say nothing, we allow passivity or tacit acceptance of Trump to become a norm. That especially applies to leaders in every community, who have a special responsibility. Thanks Sam for making your voice heard.
macmac 2 days ago 0 replies      
So what will you be doing Sam?
throwawawaway 2 days ago 0 replies      
I realize this may seem alarmist, but I have to say it, nonetheless. Judging by the pace and effectiveness of policies being implemented, it seems possible that voting might not matter a few months from now. Whatever your action, it must be one of immediate consequences, however small. Call, write, donate, protest, support and spread statements such as sama's today.
docdeek 2 days ago 0 replies      
If this is a Muslim ban it's a weak one - the vast majority of Muslims in the world live in countries not affected by the new rules.
oh_sigh 2 days ago 2 replies      
Why do people call this a "Muslim ban", when most Muslims are unaffected by it? There are 200M Muslims in Indonesia who are unaffected, 180M Pakistani Muslims, 172M Indian Muslims, 150M Bangladeshi Muslims, 75M Nigerian Muslims, 75M Turkish Muslims, 73M Egyptian Muslims...all of these people are unaffected by this "Muslim ban"
vivekd 2 days ago 0 replies      
Does this mean foreign students and foreign workers from Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen will have to leave America? That's really troubling. I wonder if Canada could step up and take the valuable human resource that America seems to be willing to throw away.
jonstewart 2 days ago 0 replies      
Sama doesn't need to "remind anyone involved in this administration" about how they'll regret the actions of this administration. He simply needs to remind Congress--who can undo an executive order--and he can easily get their attention with lobbying and donations.
2skep 2 days ago 0 replies      
I think as a non-US person, I think it may also be time to pay attention to executive powers in the US political system. It is one thing to have a system that will only rarely elect a nutjob but not having any safeguards once a nutjob is elected is too dangerous at a systems level.
panic 2 days ago 0 replies      
To Republican voters: I agree Hillary wasn't the greatest candidate, but there are bigger things at stake now.

You have more power than most of us here to stop this Muslim ban. Call your representatives in Congress before your party allows America to be destroyed by white nationalists.

gred 2 days ago 0 replies      
Maybe under a Trump administration Silicon Valley will also object more strongly to the NSL regime, now that it's "someone I dislike doing something I dislike", rather than "someone I like doing something I dislike."
_pius 2 days ago 0 replies      
OK, so take one! Your partner is complicit in this and you still haven't done anything about it.


braindead_in 2 days ago 2 replies      
I question how effective this policy is going to be in stopping the actual terrorists. Just as a determined hacker will always find a way to break into your server/network, the terrorists will find a way to illegally enter.
spir 2 days ago 1 reply      
Why did this disappear off the front page so quickly? It has 934 points and is 4 hours old. Do stories have a customizable weight? Did this one start at the top, like the YC recruiting posts?
hkmurakami 2 days ago 0 replies      
Google's Pichai had sent an internal note regarding this which got leaked to the press and was covered by the WSJ. What will it take for him/others to make public, target than private, statements?
fastflo 2 days ago 0 replies      
in the end only US citizens can decide.as a devotee for freedom and a world in peace i am very worried about those citizens' last decision concerning POTUS.i am not a US citizen. and i never felt the need to be one - just because i was lucky to be born in a country where in my opinion there is at least hope left for a better future.

i hope more US citizens "take a stand" like the OP and show how they want their part of the world to be like.

just my two cents - euro cents (a currency used in another union of only 28 states...)

wallace_f 1 day ago 0 replies      
It's interesting Trump's administration has brought political threads to HN -- in fact they're becoing the most-upvoted threads
2 days ago 2 days ago 1 reply      
benologist 2 days ago 0 replies      
Trump needs to be focused onto social and humanitarian issues where his penchant for aggressive and disruptive change can be a benevolent force, if that's possible.
jvehent 2 days ago 0 replies      
The time to take a stand was a year ago, before the (albeit flawed) democratic process elected a president you now disagree with.
smallgovt 2 days ago 1 reply      
I'm not sure if this will get any response, but figured I'd pose the question since I'm giving it serious thought.

Has anyone considered renunciating their US citizenship? Do you have practical advice on how to go about doing so and handle the ramifications?

Half my earnings going to government through taxes has been a hard to swallow fact, but funding an administration making decisions like this, just seems like something I want to be no part of.

GrumpyNl 2 days ago 1 reply      
You the people voted for him, so support him. Its a democracy. You dont always get what you want.
lebanon_tn 2 days ago 3 replies      
I strongly encourage people who consider Donald Trump to be a threat to consider arming themselves in accordance with the 2nd Amendment. While my hope for the future does not involve needing to use them, if the situation one day comes to that, I would prefer that people who are indifferent to the actions of this administration NOT be the only ones with guns.
babesh 2 days ago 0 replies      
You should boycott every company that kisses the ring: Uber, Tesla, IBM, Exxon.
koliber 2 days ago 0 replies      
I have a little private wish that Facebook would identify anti-immigration comments by people who themselves are immigrants and post a big red "hypocrite" banner above their posts.

It's so infuriating how quickly people forget their own past and become entitled oppressors themselves.

rboyd 2 days ago 0 replies      
Yes, let us shed our puppet democracy for a corporatocracy.
SSLy 2 days ago 0 replies      
is there an option like "i don't really give a fuck about politics, US especially" anywhere on this site?
65827 2 days ago 1 reply      
He's not a legitimate president any more. This is illegal. Anyone enforcing these illegal orders will be considered criminal as well.
pauljaworski 2 days ago 0 replies      
It would be a pretty powerful move if the big tech companies all participated in a blackout of their sites/services in protest.
pcmaffey 2 days ago 0 replies      
Maybe time to start OpenGov?
arturmakly 2 days ago 0 replies      
perhaps we can use fake / fact based trump tweets to offset his #altfacts? it's asking a lot from the public - but it may help en masse. ~ http://TrumpTweets.io
beatpanda 2 days ago 0 replies      
Yet Peter Thiel is still a YC partner. It's nice that Sam is speaking up but he needs to display some actual backbone here. Words are not enough.
RodericDay 2 days ago 0 replies      
A good place to start for someone like Sam Altman is people in his strata, such as Peter Thiel, who notoriously donated money to Trump's campaign, and publicly endorsed him.
ftrflyr 2 days ago 0 replies      
How do you expect us to take Ycombinator and the tech community seriously when you have a large number of persons within the tech community organizing grassroots initiatives for the purpose of having California succeed the from United States. It's a bit hypocritical to lump the tech community into your narrative to fit your narrative of how you believe America should operate and which values it should uphold.
ebfd 2 days ago 3 replies      
I voted for Trump, and am very happy with the ban- I don't see the benefit of bringing in Muslim refugees.
jowiar 2 days ago 6 replies      
This is meaningless grandstanding until:

1) YC voted Thiel off the island2) YC establishes a policy of "take money from Thiel and you are toxic to us"

Anyone in a position of power who took a look at Trump and didn't recoil with disgust needs to be exiled from civil society.

stonogo 2 days ago 6 replies      
You have directly caused my wife's parents to miss the birth of their first grandchild, and worse things I won't name because they would personally identify me, by electing an idiot who is terrified of fictional terrorists. You are a bad person, and I don't care whether you appreciate knowing it or not. I don't really give a shit what you think of Hillary, because she did not needlessly block my family from coming to me. Your guy did that. And he is capable of doing it because of you.

There is nothing 'mindlessly nasty' here. The central theme of the Trump campaign, and now the Trump administration, is right-wing virtue signaling with no consideration for the effects those actions would have on real actual human beings. This shitty situation is exactly what everyone said would happen if he got elected, and you elected him anyway. There is no room for interpretation here. Hillary is a straw man. You elected a man who is causing American citizens active trauma and the best I can hope for you and those like you is that one day you at least realize what you have done, and take responsibility for it, instead of this weak-kneed "well I only support SOME of his policies" apologetics.

You won. The least you can do is develop a fucking spine.

stonogo 2 days ago 4 replies      
eruditely 2 days ago 1 reply      
551199 2 days ago 1 reply      
anonmous 2 days ago 3 replies      
miklax 2 days ago 1 reply      
artursapek 2 days ago 3 replies      
giancarlostoro 2 days ago 8 replies      
I hope you mean "Peacefully Protest" I shut my eyes and ears once protesting becomes violent.
ftrflyr 2 days ago 1 reply      
Tulip68 2 days ago 0 replies      
What Trumpf has done here is so far beyond the pale I think you have to look toward tinpot dictatorships to find a comparison. This is not a disagreement about tax policy, trade, healthcare, etc. Rather, this is an illegitimate, unqualified con-man who due to our anachronistic electoral system wound up as president despite the majority of Americans opposing him.

It's now clear that Trump wasn't kidding and actually intends to follow through on his promises to ethnically cleanse America of Muslims, latinos and various other scapegoats.

Therefore, the solution is extremely simple. Trump cannot continue to be President and we need every institution of our society -- our courts, congress, businesses, media, schools, etc -- to put aside petty partisan differences and unite on this point.

Now that we have full knowledge that Trump is every bit the white-supremacist fascist he campaigned as, it cannot remain socially acceptable to continue to support him.

The people who have supported him are complicit in ethnic cleansing and their beliefs are absolutely incompatible with the our core American ideals of multiculturalism, freedom-of-religion, equality and diversity.

Trump needs to be removed from power and in our personal, familial and professional lives we need to make it our mission to stamp out the hatred and intolerance which fuelled the rise of this white-supremascist cancer which we if turns out we never fully excised.

ftrflyr 2 days ago 4 replies      
anon987 2 days ago 1 reply      
Not interested in politics - even if it's from Sam.


chvid 2 days ago 0 replies      
Silicon Valley should let go of politics and look inward; only supporting one party leaves you without influence when the other party wins.
SamReidHughes 2 days ago 4 replies      
Is targeting religious groups in refugee admittance actually a bad thing? How would this guy feel about favoring Jewish refugees in the 1930's?
mozumder 2 days ago 2 replies      
You really do need to demonize Trump voters. Most of them are in favor of his horrible policies, and are malicious themselves.

You're never going to get anywhere without recognizing the source of the problem.

adamnemecek 2 days ago 1 reply      
I think that one of the main issues of politics is the lack of real time data. There should be a website where people can vote every day (I'm not sure what exactly I mean by vote, I guess the bare minimum would be "i'm content with current political situation" and "i'm not content with current political situation").

Idk if this could take off but i feel like it could become a tool for voicing discontent and seeing some of these numbers of how many other people are voting could lead to something more.

One of the fundamental instruments of dictatorships is deceiving the public about how many other people are dissatisfied with the regime. If you know for a fact that 9/10 of the population is extremely dissatisfied with the regime, you can topple these regimes.

lutusp 2 days ago 0 replies      
> ... the executive order from yesterday titled Protecting the Nation From Foreign Terrorist Entry Into the United States is tantamount to a Muslim ban and requires objection.

But it's more than that -- it's illegal. Apart from known criminals, the government can't arbitrarily choose which groups to deny entry:

NYT Op-Ed: Trumps Immigration Ban Is Illegal: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/opinion/trumps-immigratio...

Avoid Non-Microsoft Antivirus Software ocallahan.org
854 points by bzbarsky  4 days ago   373 comments top 61
bad_user 4 days ago 16 replies      
I also want to raise an alarm about a current AV practice, not mentioned in the article:

 AV products like Bitdefender will MITM your HTTPS connections by installing their own root certificates, by default and without warnings
In the name of "security", this undermines the very purpose of what HTTPS is about, knowingly endangering their users.

And consider that I, a highly technical and security conscious software developer, only noticed it because I saw green icons appearing in my search results and then noticed that Google's SSL certificate is now a fake. And I only noticed it because I know how this shit works and those green icons seemed suspicious.

And yes, I'm using the word "fake", because I doubt that companies like Bitdefender have to pass the same certifications as a certificate authority or that they have any deals whatsoever with Google. And it's a serious vulnerability, because their certificate can get stolen and used by malicious software, not to mention you now have to trust a third-party with all of your secure connections, which includes your Google searches exposing your most secret desires, your Facebook and Slack chats, your bank account, everything. A third-party that does not have the scrutiny of your open-source web browser.

That's just preposterous and these products only survive because users are gullible and technically illiterate.

tempestn 4 days ago 3 replies      
What's more, as third party antivirus software becomes increasingly irrelevant, many of these companies resort to harmful and even actively malicious tactics to stay in business. On the more benign end, you see an increase in 'safe web browsing' and such tools that parse javascript while browsing and somehow attempt to make it.. safer, I guess. My main experience with these things is when they randomly decide to block bits of code on our sites, breaking functionality for no discernible purpose.

Far worse are the lengths that a company like AVG will go to to get and keep their software installed on your computer. Their browser toolbars essentially take all the dirty tricks they've apparently learned dealing with malware to.. build a piece of malware. Honestly whether it's active malice, incompetence, or lack of motivation I don't know, but I do know I've spent hours trying to extract their stuff from people's browsers. (I should say here that I fully expect someone reading this has managed to uninstall an AVG toolbar with no issues. They have multiple different auxiliary tools to their antivirus, and I'm not sure specifically which one(s) caused me trouble personally. It's also likely that they're only a _real_ pain in certain circumstances. But regardless, if you google something like 'how uninstall avg' or 'avg malware' I'm sure you'll find many more examples.)

neko_koneko 4 days ago 6 replies      
Ok, disclaimer first: I've previously worked at Kaspersky Lab (incident response division).Now, I want to say that many of the incidents that we have investigated, would have been prevented by anti-virus software (in many cases AV software was deliberately disabled by user).And I'm talking about incidents that resulted in million-dollar thefts - not just cases of some user getting cryptolocker on their home computer.I agree that AV software is bloated and has very large, messy and barely maintainable codebase, but I disagree with people who say that "I have never used any AV products and in 10 years have never been infected with malware" - this attitude is careless, to say the least, and in corporate environment could lead to huge financial losses.There are many criminal groups that put serious effort in the development and distribution of malware - not just script kiddies, but professional programmers and hackers.

BTW, there are also region-specific malware - so for example I would rely more on Kaspersky for detection of malware targeted at Russian businesses, than Symantec or Microsoft AVs.

zamalek 4 days ago 5 replies      
As always, it depends on the product that you are referring to. Purely by coincidence, I installed [product] again a few weeks ago, after having used Defender since Windows 10 launched.

> see bugs in AV products listed in Google's Project Zero

All software has vulnerabilities, including Defender. Searching for [product] in Project Zero shows that only 3 vulnerabilities have been discovered (which is arguably a bad thing, but not according to this author) and it took, at most, 4 days for them to be resolved.

> if they make your product incredibly slow and bloated

This is precisely the reason that I have returned to [product]: performance. I'm running off an HDD and Defender saturates my HDD for a good 2 minutes after boot. I don't experience this with [product]. In addition, it has a "gaming mode" which allows you to further cut back on its activity (I have never needed it). Looking at objective tests, Defender fares quite poorly in both performance[1] and protection[2].

Additionally, a homogeneous market is an easy market to exploit. Let's assume that everyone took this advice and installed Defender. It is guaranteed that Defender has vulnerabilities. If you wanted to pwn as many machines as possible, you would only have to worry about exploiting a single AV.

This is just bad advice, I'm sticking with the competition (which may not always be [product]). There are bad players (McAfee, Norton) but that does not mean everyone sans Microsoft is utterly incompetent.

[1]: http://www.av-comparatives.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/av...[2]: https://www.av-test.org/en/antivirus/home-windows/windows-10...

owenwil 4 days ago 5 replies      
This is my advice to everyone I know that gets a new Windows PC. Windows 10's built-in protection is more than adequate, and catches the majority of bad software - anything more is unnecessary, and many of the AV vendors are predatory.
chime 4 days ago 10 replies      
> At best, there is negligible evidence that major non-MS AV products give a net improvement in security.

I apologize for present anecdote when data is needed but I manage a Windows network with 100+ users and on a daily basis, Kaspersky catches 5-10 emails from Outlook that have nasty attachments. It prevents my users from opening these innocuous looking but nasty Invoice-Jan-2017.docx files. Without a good AV there is no way to know which Invoice-Jan-2017 has a virus/worm vs. which doesn't. Relying on the Office security feature is not sufficient because actual vendor/customers send macro-enabled files to us regularly.

rubbingalcohol 4 days ago 2 replies      
It's irresponsible to make such a broad claim and back it up with really vague anecdotal evidence. Yes, there are a lot of lousy AV products that are at best a break-even for security, but there are some that don't suck and generally you have to pay for them - what a strange concept.

I'm not going to advocate for any particular vendor as I used to work for an AV company (and currently use a product from a competitor). But I can attest that I've used products that have caught threats that Windows Defender didn't, and many products also include a much more robust and configurable firewall.

It's annoying when someone else's lousy code breaks your own code. This happens to the sites I administer frequently, where we will randomly get blacklisted by some no-name AV product's web security feature. I understand the frustration when you have no control over this. But to conclude that all AV software is bad does not follow from the evidence given.

aszantu 4 days ago 6 replies      
Granny won't believe me :( she feels safer because of some popup that tells her she's safe.
resfirestar 4 days ago 1 reply      
"Microsoft AV products" aren't exempt from breaking things with poorly implemented features. MSE on Windows 7 makes games (specifically, fresh installs of StarCraft II, CS:GO and Overwatch) unplayable for me due to CPU usage spikes, apparently due to it thinking that various game executables and settings files are suspicious. Exempting the directories from scanning and disabling suspected malware sample submission had no effect, what finally worked was switching to school-provided Sophos Endpoint. Antivirus can get messy and intrusive no matter who does it.
mtgx 4 days ago 0 replies      
Yeah, trust Microsoft, he said:


Isn't it funny how at the same time someone is recommending to not trust other anti-viruses because they MITM you with their own certificates, Microsoft is doing the same god damn thing, or worse (allowing a whole country to spy on you through it, and not just itself).

> This program is an extensive review process that includes regular audits from a third-party web trust auditor.

Is that the same auditor that audited WoSign as well?


Why hasn't Microsoft started requiring Certificate Transparency yet for all certificates? Maybe then I'll believe them when they say they're sure nothing wrong is going on here.

StreamBright 4 days ago 0 replies      
Anti-virus software is an anti-pattern in general. Having more bugs and backdoors than the rest of the applications combined. I havent been using anti-virus for the last 5-10 years I have just a simple rule set for using internet and it proved to be sufficient for me. However, I have many friends with anti-virus softwares and they still got viruses on their systems. I guess this is anecdotal evidence but I would like to see a comprehensive study on how effective anti-virus systems are.


jug 4 days ago 0 replies      
For the past years it seems like even Windows (given the large attack surface) viruses/trojans have become much less common than in the past. I think the first line of defense in web browsers and various techs like SmartScreen etc. has helped especially with fishy porn ad ridden websites wanting to download FixWindows.exe, but also that we've moved to often use cloud oriented tools. Nowadays we visit websites to get things done way more often than in the 80's / 90's when we ran executables from some friend's diskette or hard drive. And as long as we visit websites it's way too much effort to exploit weaknesses in their sandboxes that this is then almost entirely about targetted attacks.

Another example of how obnoxious it is becoming to merely _get_ to someone's computer to infect it now that users rely less on executables, is that the Fake Indian Microsoft Support Technician has become a thing. Actual humans calling other humans and hoping for the best by social engineering. This is so far fetched and works so rarely that the desperation is real.

E-mail has been another traditional way of getting to someone but that's nowadays mostly Outlook.com or Gmail.com, which have their own very efficient AV systems in place.

I guess my point with this is that even Microsoft's so-so antivirus tool (given that it's less intrusive) should indeed be enough. Hell I think a user with common sense will be fine with no AV whatsoever for longer than one may think.

gravypod 4 days ago 3 replies      
How about we avoid all antivirus software, integrate virtualization as a key feature of the UI of our operating system, and completely sandbox all apps. We have the technology to do this (Qubes does it now) but it's not going mainstream. I don't know why but I think this would be the end goal of computing. Completely segregate your work from your machine and only give it access to things that make sense. (Chrome doesn't need to see /etc/nginx or be able to run systemctl).

I also don't think we should trust Microsoft to not use similar exploits as other AV products in the future and I think the biggest problem here is primarily an issue for proprietary software.

One example is "Furthermore, as Justin Schuh pointed out in that Twitter thread, AV products poison the software ecosystem because their invasive and poorly-implemented code makes it difficult for browser vendors and other developers to improve their own security"

I have a hard time beliving that a libre-AV would have this problem. I've never seen bad architecture prevent security fixes and I've never seen bad architecture stay for long when it's only one rewrite away from being fixed. (I'm making no comments about compatability because no doubt even the command arguments will be renamed and their order will be changed)

leni536 4 days ago 1 reply      
I have the impression that the AV business is some kind of mixture of scam and mafia.
interfixus 4 days ago 0 replies      
This - minus the Microsoft part - is what I have been preaching for many years, even back in the late nineties, before pulling myself together and decamping for Linuxland.

But users insist. I have probably never convinced anyone to go without the AV, at least not on a permanent basis.

The best I can do is usually to set up som ClamWin and a daily or weekly scan for everybody's peace of mind.

delegate 4 days ago 4 replies      
Who writes all these viruses ?

I mean, I've experimented with assembler when I was a teenager and I may have developed some kind of program which could replicate itself.. but I highly doubt today's viruses are written by teenagers...

Who and why do people write viruses ? Is this a thing at all or are all the viruses written by the Antivirus makers themselves ?

More 'threats' is good news for the A/V makers so why not have a separate department which develops them ?

I wouldn't be surprised at all, given that much crazier things are happening in this world..

Can anyone confirm or disprove this ?

jdc0589 4 days ago 0 replies      
Here's the deal, there are two DISTINCT classes of traditional AV software. One generally sucks, the other does not.

First: free AV, generally marketed to the individual or small business. If it's free, they are making money somehow; you are almost never getting it for free out of the goodness of the vendor's heart. Most of this stuff is crap, introduces ridiculous vulnerabilities in lots of instances, and can wreak havoc on totally clean machines. For this class of AV, I 100% agree with OP; kill it with fire (aside from maybe malwarebytes).

Second: paid AV products targeted towards large businesses and the enterprise. Some of them still suck, but a lot of them are pretty good, and responsible + low impact in general. We have ESET deployed to ~700 machines and have yet to have a SINGLE problem caused by the AV while I've been here. Some of those are workstations, but a huge number are servers (granted, they get a special kind of av, not the full suite of web protection and everything).

That said, traditional AV is becoming more and more useless every month and is starting to do very little aside from catch browser toolbars, random adware, and if you don't have a firewall it can sometimes help block known bad websites (at a cost). We have also had a fair number of instances where malicious crap made it past MULTIPLE layers of email security and was caught by AV on a workstation. Malware is not distributed such that every payload has consistent content/file-hash anymore, the alternative products out there that have a chance at pseudo-reliably catching real malicious stuff are neither free, cheap, or realistically going to be deployed outside of medium to large companies.

elorant 4 days ago 1 reply      
I was running a crawler the other day on one of my PCs from a console app. Then suddenly the antivirus discovers that a page is infected, terminates the connection and wrecks havoc to the app which stays hung there for hours and I'm unable to terminate or even kill it from Task Manager. I had to restart the PC for the task to be forcefully killed. Thanks but no thanks. I uninstalled the damn thing the next day. How the fuck did antivirus software became too intrusive?
mherrmann 4 days ago 2 replies      
As someone who develops a (PyQt-based) desktop app [1], I can confirm this: My app has so far falsely been put into quarantine by Avira and McAffee. It's a pain...

[1]: https://fman.io

tptacek 4 days ago 0 replies      
In case you're wondering, this is basically the advice that most security people will give you as well, if you exclude "antivirus people" (who are really off in their own weird world), all of whom will say "use our company's product first, but no matter what you do, don't use Microsoft's".
aarongolliver 4 days ago 2 replies      
Defender has the nasty habit of aggressively scanning new games I download off Steam. There are two occasions where it'll do it:

- While it's downloading it seems to scan each chunk. I have a gigabit connection, with defender off I can download at nearly full speed. With it on I can download at about 1MB/s.

- While the game loads a level. For example, the intro level to the new Deus Ex took over 10 minutes to load the first time. At that point I disabled defender entirely and just promised myself I would be careful. Naive, I know, but at least I can play my video games.

franciscop 4 days ago 1 reply      
I will consider this. I "maintain" my relatives computers which is basically to install an anti-virus and adblock. They still get those sketchy messages from friends from time to time though, which is the main reason that I keep them with an AV. Is this correct? Does AV improve security for people who cannot differentiate between a .pdf and an .exe?

Personally I don't use an AV, I am a bit paranoid and technical competent so my case and my relatives is totally different.

herbst 4 days ago 0 replies      
I always think its super funny when a fucking ad pops up on someone desktop. Usually done by anti virus tools. And how casually people click it away is just amazing.
Roritharr 4 days ago 0 replies      
My main problem with this state of affairs is compliance. We have customers that require us to get certain certifications from TV. The TV asks your whole company to have certified AV Software in place on all machines. They do not accept Windows Defender as a dedicated AV Solution, or atleast did not the last time.

I'm still unsure what to tell them about our Macs and Linux Notebooks that we've acquired since the last audit.

Does anyone have a solution for this?

dirtyaura 4 days ago 1 reply      
If you need AV, consider F-secure. They do quality products and take security seriously.

Mikko Hyppnen, famous for his TED talk, is from F-Secure https://www.ted.com/talks/mikko_hypponen_fighting_viruses_de...

justin66 4 days ago 1 reply      
Any idea why the author is picking on Windows 7 here? Microsoft's free AV works as well on Windows 7 as it does on Windows 10.

Perhaps it should go without saying --- but you also need to your OS to be up-to-date. If you're on Windows 7 or, God forbid, Windows XP, third party AV software might make you slightly less doomed.

hydrogen18 4 days ago 0 replies      
As a former IT support guy, I can't explain how much revenue Norton would generate from me. They would regularly push updates that wiped all the critical software from customer's systems. The software was often obscure products from small vendors. Even in a small office, it was an easy day's work for me that I would not have had otherwise.

After multiple episodes of this, it dawned on me that I shouldn't be able to reinstall the software if Norton truly was removing it. The issue was that Norton's products did indeed remove it as part of an antivirus "update", but they quickly released another "update" that got rid of the problem. I turned off something labeled "pulse" updates and set it to daily instead. Not only did I never see this problem again, the PC's generally had better performance.

Osiris 4 days ago 0 replies      
This is what I tell my family and friends. Whenever I help someone upgrade to Windows 10, or work on their computer, I tell them to just use Microsoft Defender.

I've also read various reports of security problems with AV software, so I'm not comfortable recommending anything third-party.

Defender + uBlock is a pretty simple and effective combo.

EJTH 4 days ago 0 replies      
I really haven't had any real use for AV software after i disabled flash on all my browsers...
cpeterso 4 days ago 0 replies      
AV causes all sorts of problems for Firefox, such as startup crashes or, in some cases, AV MITM breaking Firefox updates, leaving users stranded on old Firefox versions. In Firefox 53, Mozilla is starting to purposely make it more difficult for extensions to rummage around in native code and external software to inject DLLs into the running Firefox process:


hexmiles 4 days ago 0 replies      
Reading trought the comments, i see that a lot of people don't like antivirus, but what alternative we have, is mcrosoft antivirus really a better alternative.

I personaly have avast installed and i don't like it very much, i find it too invasive (it keep prompting to delete an firefox addons from test pilot, for example) and i always disable https scanning, but from comparison that i found online, seem that microsoft AV do much worse in respect to others.

what HN crow suggest to protect a Windows machine (win10), is microsoft AV really better or just like the others?

Spooky23 4 days ago 0 replies      
Pretty questionable advice.

Microsoft AV is fast and non-disruptive, but is a laggard in terms of effectiveness, even by the standard of AV.

It's best used when you need to check the AV box, and it is less disruptive than other solutions.

kriro 4 days ago 1 reply      
Some good points. The antivirus software itself is probably an interesting attack vector. However I don't like the assertion that Microsoft scanners are sufficient without some evidence (and In wouldn't be shocked if the MS-AV software itself was exploitable, too). At least run some tests and compare a couple of state of the art products.

The situation is generally bad, AV vendors are often shady. However I think "vet your AV vendor" is much better advice.

billpg 4 days ago 0 replies      
My pet gripe: Warning me about cookies as if they are malware.
yrio 4 days ago 2 replies      
What about open source antivirus software like ClamAV?
JustSomeNobody 4 days ago 2 replies      
What always bothered me about MS Windows was that for a long time one HAD to use 3rd party AV SW. This should have been MS's responsibility from the very beginning. I don't go to third parties for seatbelts and anti-lock brakes when I buy a car. I shouldn't have had to use a 3rd party AV SW.
ForFreedom 4 days ago 1 reply      
I got for free Norton Security with my new Dell laptop. On installing I was unable to enable windows defender or firewall. Norton takes over the security by default.

I contacted Symantec and had to uninstall Norton Security and install Norton Antivirus for the windows firewall to be activated.

avenoir 4 days ago 0 replies      
Curious to know why people are still running antiviruses. I haven't had one running since, i believe, Windows 7 release and switching over to Chrome/Firefox from IE but even IE is very resistant to threats these days.
tehabe 4 days ago 0 replies      
Just yesterday I had the computer of a friend in front of me, it had three anti-virus applications installed. No idea which was running. I wonder though, do those uninstall mechanism actually work and remove everything?

I kinda have my doubts.

z3t4 4 days ago 4 replies      
While many AV companies are really bad, AV per say is still an extra layer of security. Telling people to remove a layer of security is bad advice. There's a problem though and if I knew how to solve it I'd be rich!
baal80spam 4 days ago 1 reply      
In principle, I agree with the article.

Personally, on Win7 I use a combination of 3 things:

- MSSE- TinyWall as a lightweight firewall- heavily modified HOSTS file

Never had malware/virus problems and sometimes I do visit shady webistes or download quirky software.

roryisok 4 days ago 0 replies      
I've been beating this drum for years, MS Security Essentials is the only passably decent antivirus app there is, and seems to be the only one that doesn't try to scare users into paying for upgrades.
fmstephe 4 days ago 0 replies      
We all know some products are bogged down pieces of crap, but there are some very good (and free) AV/AM products out there that do protect your computer better than Defender.
cube00 4 days ago 0 replies      
Tried this with my parents, they said "can you guarantee that this free Microsoft thing will catch everything McAfee would?".

There is a lot to be said for the skepticism around "free" products.

doczoidberg 4 days ago 1 reply      
half offtopic: do I need an AV software on my android smartphone? Friends always ask me which they should use (because I am the "computer guy") and I tell them that I don't have one.
mtgx 4 days ago 2 replies      
What's wrong with avoiding Microsoft anti-virus, too? Or os he giving this advice only because most people can't disable Microsoft's antivirus anymore, anyway?
galfarragem 4 days ago 1 reply      
Any relevant information about Avast? I'm using their free version for 10 years and don't have any major complains.
youdontknowtho 4 days ago 1 reply      
I've often wondered how much energy has been waster on AV. All of those hard drives thrashing and all of those scans.
SuperVivid 4 days ago 0 replies      
Couldn't be said oft enough. Still seeing people buying a new "security suite" every year.
warcode 4 days ago 0 replies      
Haven't had any issues with ESET NOD32 in the last 10 years.

I've turned off the MITM on https though.

karlb 4 days ago 1 reply      
Does this apply to Macs?

I know that many Mac users don't use anti-virus. Are they right not to?

ndesaulniers 4 days ago 0 replies      
One of Mozilla's previous CEOs and a bunch of big wigs now work at AVG.
fuzzy2 4 days ago 0 replies      
I'd like to agree. But I can't. Even if disregard detection scores, Defender/Security Essentials is slow. It uses humongous amounts of CPU time, which slows down slower PCs (like Celeron N3150) a lot. It also tends to saturate disk I/O.

In short: It sucks so bad it's virtually unusable.

adamconroy 4 days ago 0 replies      
AV software is a great example of a cure being worse than the disease
jagger11 4 days ago 0 replies      
security software doesn't mean secure software
Endy 4 days ago 0 replies      
Nah, I'll stick with Avast & HitManPro, thanks.
Hydraulix989 4 days ago 0 replies      
I've seen false negatives multiple times in Microsoft's.
khana 4 days ago 0 replies      
"I did this 10 years ago..." True dat.
0xFFC 4 days ago 1 reply      
Acalyptol 4 days ago 1 reply      
Might be true for people who know what they're doing. However I've seen a decrease in the number of toolbars installed in my mom's computer since I've installed an antivirus.
KayL 4 days ago 0 replies      
Most people forget the malware on hacked website. Browsers won't give you a warning. (OK. Chrome will show you a RED screen but not for all) They need not hack into your system. But they collected your login info, credit card. I even want to install one on my MacOS.

MS AV still too slow at the moment. In Windows 10, you could turn on Defender to run both AV at the same time.

Federal judge stays deportations of travelers in Trump immigration order thehill.com
658 points by anarazel  2 days ago   354 comments top 34
jseliger 2 days ago 7 replies      
The ACLU is also reporting that the stay was granted: https://twitter.com/dale_e_ho/status/825520404777287680.

Many of you are probably watching the horror show unfold and wondering what tangible thing you can do. Joining or contributing to the ACLU is one small but important, specific way to help: https://action.aclu.org/secure/become-freedom-fighter-join-a....


tabeth 2 days ago 3 replies      
I'm sorry to report that it's not over yet:

> Stay covers the airport detainees and those currently in transit. Doesn't change ban going forward. Prev unclear tweet deleted


> Important clarification. This does not prevent Trump admin from blocking new travelers.


jayess 2 days ago 10 replies      
No one seems to be talking about that fact that Trump can do these things because the Congress has specifically authorized the president to do so. It seems as though a massive amount of power in one person's hands is OK is some situations but not in others, depending on one's political persuasion.

And the list of countries is from Homeland Security's list of "countries of concern" compiled during the Obama administration. And signed into law by Obama himself.


Of course some will blast me as supporting Trump or supporting this ban. Not true.

woofyman 1 day ago 2 replies      
CNN is reporting that theWhite House over ruled the DHS when it came to green cards.

>Friday night, DHS arrived at the legal interpretation that the executive order restrictions applying to seven countries -- Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Syria, Sudan and Yemen -- did not apply to people who with lawful permanent residence, generally referred to as green card holders.The White House overruled that guidance overnight, according to officials familiar with the rollout. That order came from the President's inner circle, led by Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon. Their decision held that, on a case by case basis, DHS could allow green card holders to enter the US.

moflome 2 days ago 0 replies      
FYI, Chris Sacca is matching grants to ALCU up to $150K...


a3n 2 days ago 3 replies      
A little OT, I guess, but the WaPo's story about this repeats a map I've seen that shows the seven countries.

Conspicuously absent are Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Lebanon, which is where the people who hijacked the 9/11 planes, the worst, and most logistically complex, terrorist act against the US ever, were from. Where's the logic? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#FBI

I don't at all think that this order should be in effect, but I don't see the logic in its implementation.

75dvtwin 1 day ago 1 reply      
I personally support the executive order in its motif.

Radicalization of US-born or US-admitted Muslims by clerics, relatives, social media -- is real, eg [1] (Fort-hood terrorist), San-Bernardino terrorists [2].

Therefore, the argument could not just be about questioning if any visa/green card holder for the initial list of 7 'banned-county -->to--> Muslim terrorist perpetrating killing on US soil'.

It is a preventive measure, with a time limit .Very appropriate for this period of time, given the war with ISIS.

I am not, however, impressed with the execution or the preparation that went into this particular order.I would like to see a different level of scrutiny and reduced personal inconvenience afforded to US green card holders.

Appreciate that majority on this forum, including highly respected scientists, will disagree with me.But please allow the expression of, at-least partially informed dissent.

[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rizwan_Farook_and_Tashfeen_Mal...

anthony_romeo 1 day ago 1 reply      
This is an embarrassment.

Even if you completely agree with what the order does, it's impossible to claim that the implementation of this was anything other than a complete and utter disaster. No warning, no clear way to enforce the order, widespread protest, and getting the courts involved within 24 hours.

This is going to have ramifications for years to come. We want to encourage the world's best and brightest to come here, and a precedent of unannounced, widespread, severe changes to enforcement of the laws will cause people to reconsider.

This is utter negligence and I'm ashamed of my country.

philangist 2 days ago 2 replies      
I think the title of this post is wrong. Here's another post - http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/28/14427086/federal-court-hal... - that states that "The court specifically ruled on Darweesh and Alshawis petition; the ACLU will have to include all other similarly-affected immigrants as part of a class action to have it apply more broadly."
pmoriarty 2 days ago 1 reply      
Trump and the Republican Congress are going to appoint many judges during his term, including Supreme Court judges. That could be Trump's most enduring legacy.
hackuser 2 days ago 0 replies      
More precisely, it only blocks part of Trump's order:

"Judge Ann Donnelly of the US District Court in Brooklyn granted a request from the ACLU to stay deportations of those detained on entry to the United States following President Trump's executive order."


tonyztan 1 day ago 1 reply      
> "IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that to assure compliance with the Court's order, the Court directs service of this Order upon the United States Marshal for the Eastern District of New York, and further directs the United States Marshals Service to take those actions deemed necessary to enforce the provisions and prohibitions set for in this order."

Is the U.S. Marshals Service part of the judicial or executive branch?

(Source: https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/darweesh-v-trump-decisio...)

jackmott 2 days ago 1 reply      
Please donate to the ACLU
daodedickinson 2 days ago 1 reply      
The text of Trump's temporary order is mostly copy-pasted from temporary orders enacted by Obama that have withstood scrutiny, so I wouldn't get hopes up for a full reversal.
AdmiralAsshat 2 days ago 0 replies      
I was at the solidarity rally at the Dulles International Airport in Herndon, VA for a few hours, although I had left by the time this story broke. I'd wonder if it got announced to the crowd.
benmorris 2 days ago 0 replies      
Donated to the ACLU for the first time today. I also plan to call my representative on Monday.
DanBC 1 day ago 0 replies      
For the people who support the ban: do you realise it was catching people in transit, who had no intention of staying in the US?

Here's one woman who was flying from Costa Rica to Scotland. Her initial flight transited through the US, where she was told her transit visa was no longer valid.


coldcode 2 days ago 1 reply      
I hope this is true. At least we still have a (mostly) independent judiciary.
rdtsc 2 days ago 2 replies      
What is the authority chain usually here. Can a Federal judge block other such executive orders? Is this used often
pandaman 1 day ago 1 reply      
And the DHS has responded to this ruling already:https://www.dhs.gov/news/2017/01/29/department-homeland-secu...

No foreign national in a foreign land, without ties to the United States, has any unfettered right to demand entry into the United States or to demand immigration benefits in the United States.

mhneu 1 day ago 2 replies      
While many Trump stories should be flagged, some are important for society and for HN to discuss.

This is one of those important stories. Americans can not stick their heads in the sand about these anti-muslim actions.

Please do not delete this story. The American and global tech community needs to discuss this. Trump and his advisors win when HN deletes stories like this.

woofyman 2 days ago 2 replies      
So Tump ignores the court and we have a constitutional crisis.
pizza 2 days ago 1 reply      
Does anybody have experience with the logistics involved in organizing strangers against such actions?
gdulli 2 days ago 4 replies      
If the ban goes to the Supreme Court and is struck down because Trump didn't wait to fill the vacancy with a loyalist first, he'll have essentially failed the marshmallow test.


wslh 2 days ago 1 reply      
Wow, it seems like US is a 24-hour reality show now.
james-watson 1 day ago 1 reply      
mrtree 1 day ago 1 reply      
mrtree 1 day ago 2 replies      
funkju 2 days ago 6 replies      
2 days ago 2 days ago 1 reply      
_andromeda_ 1 day ago 4 replies      
I'd like to know why anyone thinks America owes anyone anything?

The ban is absolutely necessary. You Americans have a great country but you're going to ruin it if you don't take your time to listen to Trump.

There is no way that unchecked immigration is a good thing for any country in the world let alone America.

I've heard what has been said about how immigration made America what it is today - great. However, immigration should be based on whether the immigrant will add value to your country. If an immigrant is coming to set up a business, do further studies and other positive things like that, then by all means provide them with a way to come in.

However, if there's a threat of terrorism from the immigrant or if they aren't adding value but will instead be recipients of welfare all I can ask is, WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?

How can you sustain this? You cannot save everyone in the world. You just can't. The best you can do is help them from a camp in their own country and even then, it's your choice as a country that has fair elections.

Why did you even have these elections if you're going to disallow the president that you yourselves chose in FAIR elections to do his jobs. Is there anything new that Trump is doing that he did not promise his voters he would do? If not, then you're saying that the majority of the people that chose Trump don't deserve to be heard and that only your views matter.

And don't even get me started on that business of, 'we didn't vote for him...he didn't get the popular vote'.

Why is it okay for previous presidents who won in the electoral college to be legitimized but not Trump? This is absolutely UNFAIR and selfish of anti-Trumpians. Remember, you take away California and Trump actually wins the popular vote anyway. To me, this is a clear indication that one state wants to bully the rest of the country into doing things their way and their way only. So UNFAIR.

Without getting into my country of origin, I will tell you this; we too are building a wall to stop illegal aliens from a neighboring Muslim country from getting in. These fundamentalists are really terrible human beings. We have lost so many lives to their suicide attacks. Friends and families losing their loved ones to these actions. I remember a time we were so scared of the attacks that we had to close offices in the daytime when working and verify you knew who was knocking on the door before letting them in. It was a terrible time and with a recent attack, last week to more precise, the fear is coming back. I just wish we had finished putting up our wall by now and that it was as strong as the proposed American one.

People have to be responsible for their own country. They have to build their own countries and stop the fundamentalism.

known 1 day ago 1 reply      
Can US survive without "importing" OPEC Oil? bloom.bg/1O04ymn
refurb 2 days ago 3 replies      
If anyone thinks that this ruling is a surprise to the Trump administration, think again. I have no doubt that he conferred with his AG about his executive order and discuss possible outcomes such as a judge blocking his order. Maybe he expected this outcome?

Regardless, we'll see what his next move is.

How to leak to the press niemanlab.org
679 points by anjalik  3 days ago   207 comments top 23
vonnik 3 days ago 5 replies      
[Former reporter here] I have worked with confidential sources, and there are a number of things you can do, as a whistle blower, to protect yourself.

Phone calls are better than files, generally speaking, and you should be calling from a burner; i.e. a pre-paid phone that is not in your name. You shouldn't even give your real name to the reporter on first contact. Reporters take notes and some of them have to share their sourcing with editors. So be really clear with them how they will treat your real identity, if you choose to share it.

Face to face meetings are sometimes better than phone calls. You should assume, when you're handling highly sensitive information, that the reporter's devices may eventually be hacked, bugged or subpoena'd, so make sure that an electronic trail does not lead back to you.

You should carefully choose the journalists you leak to. The best choice will have to be well sourced. That's because the information you leak to them, in most cases, will have to be confirmed. That is, they will have to call other insiders they know and ask "Is X true?" If they don't have other sources, the information you provide will probably not make it to the public.

Reporters also get contacted by a lot of nut jobs, so early on, do what you must to establish credibility. Trust has to be established both ways.

olivierlacan 3 days ago 4 replies      
The very fact that an organization like the Nieman Foundation can publish something like this article without first having the good sense of enabling required TLS on their website is frighteningly careless.

Anyone from governmental agencies who read this article at home or work can now fairly easily be targeted by the relevant surveillance agencies.

caseysoftware 3 days ago 5 replies      
Even the NYTimes has admitted the "omg gagged scientists!" line is standard operating procedure with new Administrations:

> Ive lived through many transitions, and I dont think this is a story, said a senior E.P.A. career official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the news media on the matter. I dont think its fair to call it a gag order. This is standard practice. And the move with regard to the grants, when a new administration comes in, you run things by them before you update the website.


Try to save some of your outrage for actual outrageous events.

pornel 3 days ago 1 reply      
Sites shouldn't be putting secure drops in a subdomain. DNS and TLS SNI expose domain names in plain text, so 3-letter agencies watching backbone traffic will immediately notice when "securedrop.example.com" is accessed.

Vice and Intercept made a better choice using a path on a their regular domain:


stuckagain 3 days ago 5 replies      
So much more to opsec than using tor. I hope leakers are either ready to be unmasked, or have countermeasures against things like document fingerprinting.
btilly 3 days ago 4 replies      
How long until someone on the Trump side starts sending spam to all of these addresses?

They can't block it, but good luck finding real signal in millions of requests.

Or, more subtly, deliberately leaking easily discredited stuff. Once it gets published, it becomes a propaganda target. As a great example, consider how Dan Rather was taken down by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy. Planting a perfect smoking gun was enough to bring down Dan Rather and make the story of how Bush got his draft deferment toxic in the media.

The ultimate irony there is that the story that Dan Rather reported was actually true. It had all been reported in The Guardian by Greg Palast, and Dan Rather had started with access to his research. It didn't matter, planting perfect fraudulent documents managed to discredit it.

nthompson 3 days ago 1 reply      
This reminds me of the Eldo Kim bomb threat:


I guess the guy was the only one on the network using tor, making him easy to identify.

So unless tor gets a huge userbase in DC, it seems like an encrypted url would be safer. (I don't know much about tor; am I wrong?) Everyone reads WaPo; no suspicion getting on that site.

But I think the main difficulty in becoming a leaker is that you have to hide your mental evolution as you decide to become a leaker. By expressing your dissatisfaction to your colleagues before you decide to leak, you make yourself a suspect post-leak. Leakers should be aware that traditional investigative mechanisms are very powerful, and even if the crypto is rock solid, it is still very likely they'll be caught. It's then a question of whether they are willing to 'take one for the team'.

ransom1538 3 days ago 2 replies      
The hard part isn't anonymously leaking the information. (You could do this with a $0.15 envelope and a stamp. Just remember not to put in your address as the return address and to wear gloves).

The hard part when you leak is that you are now in a set of people that knew the information. That usually boils things down to a handful or even one suspect. With US federal agents where in fact it is illegal to lie to them, they will have you in their office by lunch.

brotherjerky 3 days ago 3 replies      
> Leakers shouldnt use their work computers and should use public wifi, like a Starbucks or at a hotel or anywhere where the Internet is open for public use.

Lately there seem to be very few completely open wifi points. Most of them at least require some click through for agreeing to terms. Is there any risk involved here?

mdrzn 3 days ago 2 replies      
I had no idea all the major news sites had an .onion Secure Drop website.I wonder how many leaked news they receive per year.
rc_bhg 3 days ago 1 reply      
Does Fox News or CNN accept leaks? I feel like having a secure way to accept leaks is a sign of a good news org.
brak1 3 days ago 1 reply      
>"Leakers shouldnt use their work computers and should use public wifi, like a Starbucks or at a hotel or anywhere where the Internet is open for public use."

Hotels can normally link a computer on their network to a room number... Suggesting they use a hotel wifi isn't a good idea IMO (unless you are not actually a guest, and its just an open public wifi network).

pweissbrod 3 days ago 0 replies      
If youre one of the vast minority of internet users happening to be using Tor this stands out like a sore thumb from any party monitoring network activity. Not to mention many of the direct nodes are possible to be your would-be adversary. I hope users of this approach understand the risks involved. Tor seems deceivingly plug-and-play to the less technical crowd
georgefox 3 days ago 1 reply      
A few of these articles are suggesting that uploads be performed from public places (e.g., Starbucks) for the sake of anonymity/deniability. But it would seem that performing these actions in public would potentially reveal your identity, actions, and secret codename to any eyes or cameras around. As a question of general curiosity about anonymity, how does one weigh the benefits of using an open internet access point with the more literal visibility that using a public access point might entail?
iamatworknow 3 days ago 3 replies      
This may be a dumb question, but why not just use the post office?
rwmj 3 days ago 2 replies      
Is using a PDF a good idea? I imagine that it'll contain loads of interesting metadata which might be related back to your computer at some later date.
finalpatch 3 days ago 0 replies      
I know there are companies embed digital fingerprints in all assets on their intranet. Basically the web server serves files with different fingerprints for each employee. These fingerprints can survive even resizing/processing/re-encoding. Company then will be able to track down the person who leaked it by simply looking at the leaked file.
josnyder 3 days ago 0 replies      
I think it would be interesting for a member of Congress (or their staff) to operate a SecureDrop instance. Such a system might be a useful supplement to other forms of communication between federal officers and Congress (e.g. fax, interoffice, in person). Combined with 5 USC 7211, it might also have strong legal protection (IANAL).
timdorr 3 days ago 0 replies      
I'm curious: Is any effort made in SecureDrop to detect or scrub identifiable headers or metadata from files? I understand the trust issue is generally with the source, but I could see an identity being leaked via a blob of metadata with a name in it.
pimlottc 3 days ago 1 reply      
How does site authentication work in Onion world? With those unrecognizable URLs, it seems like it'd be easy to set up a phishing site that leaks the whistleblower's identity.
matthewhall 3 days ago 0 replies      
Who da thunk, this is blocked at my school
toehead2000 3 days ago 2 replies      
relieferator 3 days ago 1 reply      
New law - every computer / keyboard must now contain (already has??) a keylogger.
Sergey Brin joins protest against immigration order at SFO theverge.com
675 points by _pius  1 day ago   343 comments top 23
tptacek 1 day ago 3 replies      
Google employees were very heavily represented on the Never Again pledge a few weeks ago, more than any big tech company. I've been able to talk to several Googlers since then, several of whom are now directly involved with Tech Solidarity. Google takes a lot of shit, and some of it is probably deserved, but there seems clearly to be a moral core to the people working there.

I stick up for Google a lot --- nobody has done more to improve the security of the web than they have --- but they deserve credit for this kind of thing too.

akhilcacharya 1 day ago 2 replies      
Relevant part of his background [0]

>They formally applied for their exit visa in September 1978, and as a result his father was "promptly fired". For related reasons, his mother also had to leave her job. For the next eight months, without any steady income, they were forced to take on temporary jobs as they waited, afraid their request would be denied as it was for many refuseniks. During this time his parents shared responsibility for looking after him and his father taught himself computer programming. In May 1979, they were granted their official exit visas and were allowed to leave the country.[12] At an interview in October 2000, Brin said, "I know the hard times that my parents went through there and am very thankful that I was brought to the States."[17]

>In the summer of 1990, a few weeks before his 17th birthday, his father led a group of high school math students, including Sergey, on a two-week exchange program to the Soviet Union. His roommate on the trip was future Carnegie Mellon University computer science professor John Stamper. As Brin recalls, the trip awakened his childhood fear of authority and he remembered that "his first impulse on confronting Soviet oppression had been to throw pebbles at a police car." Malseed adds, "On the second day of the trip, while the group toured a sanatorium in the countryside near Moscow, Brin took his father aside, looked him in the eye and said, 'Thank you for taking us all out of Russia.'"

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin#Early_life_and_edu...

fowlerpower 1 day ago 3 replies      
Well at least people are pushing back.

What was starting to worry me is that many of the top CEOs were all kissing Trumps ass as to who can bring back more jobs. They were stumbling over themselves, "we are bringing 10000 jobs in the next 2 years".

There needs to be a lot of vocal people against this, immigrants are one the weakest groups in society. Trump just deomstrated and confirmed this.

What I don't get, and maybe someone can explain it, why isn't this un-constitutional? It feels like banning people, people who are perfectly legal not citizens but still legal, based on their religion is against the constitution. Am I missing something? Wasn't this country started by people looking to escape religious persecution?

markwaldron 1 day ago 0 replies      
It's great to see someone with this much influence joining the masses to protest these injustices. I understand these companies have shareholders and tend to avoid politically charged topics, but in this case, it affects not only Google's employees but people all over the country.
ziszis 1 day ago 6 replies      
Of the five largest tech companies in the world, the CEOs of four of them have come out against the Executive Order targeting specific immigrants: GOOG/MSFT/FB/AAPL.

AMZN and Jeff Bezos have strangely been absent even though he was the most critical pre-election.

potatosoup 1 day ago 9 replies      
Where were all these millionaires and billionaires when we were droning people in some of these countries? They all donated to Clinton's election campaign and under her watch as Secretary of State we dropped thousands of bombs. They supported the pro-war candidate.

Why is restricting our borders considered so inhumane as to cause an Internet-wide outcry, while killing people for years hadn't?

meshr 1 day ago 1 reply      
Something wrong with this world. I wish it to be vice a versa. Brin should be in the president chair, making America great as Google, and Trump should be outside joining protest against modernization.
quakeguy 1 day ago 0 replies      
And so should you, go out on the streets, be heard. Don't be ruled, rule for you.
kareldonk 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is what statism looks like. Hopefully people learn the right lessons quickly now. Statism is enslavement. Google it.
tn13 1 day ago 0 replies      
Silence of other powerful people today will be remembered by history.
dredmorbius 1 day ago 0 replies      
I applaud this and very much wish to see more like this.

That's from someone who finds plenty of opportunity to criticise Google. Including presently for the company's support of the GOP, now a de-facto fascist party. Yes, I'm aware the situation's a complex one, and Google isn't a garage operation any more.

Regardless: thank you, Sergey.

ftrflyr 1 day ago 5 replies      
You all are aware that the past 6 U.S. presidents have done this sort of thing...right?

Obama last did it in 2011.

The hypocrisy here is that because Trump did it, it is wrong.

We are a nation of laws and in order to maintain law and order, we must follow those laws. The minute tech companies (let's not be obtuse here, corporations are in the business of making money and appeasing shareholders) decides they are either for or against certain laws, well...you have anarchy.

This has nothing to do with denying rights to immigrants and everything to do with the far lefts disproval of the elected president of the United States.

potatosoup 1 day ago 1 reply      
jarsin 1 day ago 1 reply      
maratd 1 day ago 9 replies      
james-watson 1 day ago 3 replies      
gagmaker 1 day ago 1 reply      
robotresearcher 1 day ago 3 replies      
The constitution only applies to citizens.

Edit: apparently I was mistaken. It applies to 'the people' of the US, which is anyone with 'substantial connection' to the US and under US jurisdiction. Green card holders would seem to be pretty clearly of 'the people' then.

Of course, it's a damn shame to treat any legal immigrant or legitimate asylum seeker this way. Seems to be absolutely against the long standing traditions of the country.

rankhyprocrisy 1 day ago 3 replies      
ftrflyr 1 day ago 7 replies      
American citizen here:

I was denied a entry visa into Paraguay left to be stranded in Brazil. I barely made it to my grandmothers funeral. I had to call the embassy and spend several days in limbo. I understood that I was powerless because I was not a citizen of Brazil nor Paraguay. I wasn't entitled to representation by either country nor would they provide it.

I was jailed in Mozambique for refusing to pay a bribe at the border. I did not expect nor receive any special treatment. This is the way things are.

I overstayed my visa in Chile by less than 24 hours, was forced to remain at the border between Argentina and Chile for the day and threatened with jail. I did not fight and riot nor protest. Why would I? I need to follow the laws of the country I am in.

What we have here is a nation so divided that you have people on the right who are for less government and rule, but respect the rule of law and people on the left who have no regard for the law and demand more regulations and laws.


missbit 1 day ago 0 replies      
Jack, take that twitter account away from Trump.

OK, this doesn't have much to do with Brin.

Just saying.

Lyft donates $1M to the ACLU, condemns Trumps immigration actions techcrunch.com
508 points by vthallam  1 day ago   261 comments top 13
Pfhreak 1 day ago 10 replies      
Uber undermining the taxi strike [1] yesterday was pretty visible -- at least in my social circle here in Seattle -- and when Lyft made this announcement we all deleted our Uber accounts.

Will that have a material impact on anyone's bottom line? Who knows, but I'd love to see the graphs for new account signups/account deletions.

[1] Taxis were not servicing JFK in support of those who were being detained there.

zerdmann 1 day ago 0 replies      
I think instead of commending Lyft for what could be seen as marketing (they also did not stand in solidarity with the JFK strike, we should be discussing ways that ride-sharing technology can be used to support unionized drivers. I admittedly don't know much about the details, but apps like Curb http://gocurb.com/ at least claim to be working with licensed cabbies. I'd love more information on alternatives to the big ride-sharing apps that are more overtly focused on workers rights, instead of calling a fleet of contractors "disruptive."
koolba 1 day ago 7 replies      
Why is a company that is losing money and having what's left of their lunch taken by a gorilla of a competitor (Uber) throwing away $1M like this? If I were an investor in Lyft I'd sue them.
israeli77 1 day ago 1 reply      
Lyft operates in Malaysia, where Israelis are banned from entering unless they get a letter of approval from the Ministry of Home Affairs, which is nearly impossible for the average Israeli. I'm curious if Lyft has any qualms about operating in Malaysia? I understand their disgust with Trump's action but I do hope they're consistent with their views.
calciphus 17 hours ago 0 replies      
Does anyone have a reliable source that Lyft was still operating at JFK during the protest? I can't honestly figure out if they were or not.

No horse in this race, just seen it reported both ways, trying to figure it out.

nojvek 21 hours ago 0 replies      
I really really like Lyft. It seems Trevis is kind of a scumbag, kind of like Trump in a way who wants to win at any cost and has little sympathy for people in his way.

Hearing employees at Uber crying, drivers getting scammed into leases, terrible customer support. I'm glad I didn't accept the offer.

sontek 22 hours ago 1 reply      
I'm surprised everyone is jumping on Lyft even though Thiel is a major investor in Lyft and a huge supporter of Trump.

I think it'd make most sense to avoid both services if you are concerned about the recent immigration ban.

facetube 1 day ago 6 replies      
Donald Trump is being powered by conspiracy theorist Steve Bannon, the "Breitbart News" head and board member of Cambridge Analytica, an analytics firm that used psychological profiling to cynically exploit the American electorate. Despite his inexperience and stated desire to "blow things up", he was appointed to an influential national security position, over the Joint Chiefs of Staff [1]. This is an existential threat to the American public and to the world.

1: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38787241

2: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cambridge-a...

3: http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/the-british-data-cruncher...

4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica

Malician 1 day ago 2 replies      
I agree that Uber should have participated in the strike. You said "welcome to post-truth politics" and "clearly and unambiguously untrue." Please demonstrate that I am a liar.
imaginenore 1 day ago 1 reply      
joojoobeez 1 day ago 1 reply      
asktomsk 1 day ago 4 replies      
tibbon 1 day ago 0 replies      
Why will Uber not pull their heads out of their ass and have any moral-basis for operation? It's not like they don't hire a ton of Green Card holders...
Run for Office: Find all elected offices you are eligible to run for runforoffice.org
444 points by smacktoward  4 days ago   158 comments top 44
jMyles 4 days ago 7 replies      
This doesn't appear to include student offices, which, especially at large state universities, are very powerful and misunderstood.

If you are a student, consider running for student office. It's likely (in fact almost certain) that your student government makes more decisions that impact your life and spends more of your money than the national government does.

They typically have multi-million dollar budgets, seats on powerful state-wide committees where tens or hundreds of millions are spent, and the ability to impact academic policy for students of the next generation.

Some also run sprawling field campuses, nature preserves or camps. I'm particularly fond of one that is run by the Albany Student Gov: Dippikill. Very special place.

Students in decades past fought very hard for the power and placement that today's student governments enjoy, and education "administrators" are always looking to carve them out and take them away. They need to be continually defended and used.

davidw 4 days ago 5 replies      
I applied as a candidate for the local planning commission because I think that restrictive zoning is driving some portion of inequality in this country, and also has a lot of problems in terms of long term financial stability (see: Strong Towns). I've never done anything like that before; we'll see how it goes.
gknoy 4 days ago 0 replies      
On a related note, Shea Silverman posted on his blog [0] about how he ran for office in an extremely cost effective manner. It was linked on HN about two months ago [1].

> This year I ran for Florida House of Representatives District 49 (Orlando). I lost, but I got 31% of the vote and I only spent $3000. My opponent got 69% of the vote and spent $100,000

He open sourced [2] several tools that he used to do this.

He advises participation in local hob-nobbing events (I presume this was a local Florida thing, but your local community may have similar), and More Facebook Advertising. He reminds us that signs should be big, and WILL be stolen. He also advised cultivating good relations with local media by doing press releases.

While he was running for a state office, you could probably use similar tactics for more local things.

0: http://blog.sheasilverman.com/2016/11/how-to-run-for-florida...1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=130080712: https://github.com/SheaSilverman

jimterrapin 4 days ago 10 replies      
My name is Jim Cupples and I work on RunForOffice.org Thank you for the suggestions and comments.

I'm a politics nerd that likes local government, and believe it has dormant power for movements. I wrote a piece called The Bottom Carries the Top that explains my thoughts on that stuff.

Anyway, I agree with many of the comments and we think the university positions is a great idea.

If you like, feel free to email me at jimcupples@gmail.com or cupples@nationbuilder.com

Hope to hear from you

LeifCarrotson 4 days ago 5 replies      
This would be much more useful if they displayed some election statistics and information on incumbents and political parties. The stated purpose of the tool is:

> Today, 40% of state legislature races go uncontested and the problem is worse at the local level. There is a crisis of leadership occurring in our democracy. We need more people to lead. We need more people to run for office.

> Run for Office is a free service that provides all the tools you need to launch a successful campaign whether you are a seasoned veteran or firsttime campaigner.

You won't "launch a successful campaign" if you are a nobody running against an incumbent who is supported by the dominant political party in a bright red or deep blue state. You'd need to be a seasoned veteran with wide name recognition who is very well connected, well liked, and also wealthy, but then you're not likely to be using this tool.

It's in the races where the incumbent is not running for reelection, the position is nonpartisan, or there's a lot of turnover that someone could say "Hey, I have a chance at that spot."

GeneralMayhem 4 days ago 1 reply      
I know this might run somewhat counter to the point of the site, but I'd love more information about what the effective qualifications for filling the positions are. Obviously any moron can get elected, but that doesn't mean I'd feel particularly good about, for instance, running for SF Public Defender without being a lawyer, or city treasurer without any background or knowledge in finance.
tptacek 4 days ago 2 replies      
There's a powerful social permission / imposter syndrome thing that works against people running for office, so an effective thing you can do even if you yourself can't bring yourself to stand for office is to convince friends to do it, and offer to support their candidacies.

I've found it's remarkably easy to have that conversation with people. Ultimately, telling someone you'd support them if they ran for elected office is a pretty major compliment. And you don't really need any context or permission to bring it up; like saying "that's a nice jacket", you can say it any time. More importantly: when someone they know gives them permission, people actually will consider running.

I would much rather get 10 of my friends into local office around the country than run myself, so that's the goal I've set for myself. I'm making decent progress!

You or your friends should consider (and probably prefer) local administrative offices, like park districts or water reclamation. You don't need to be a subject matter expert to run for these --- that's not expected of you (source: friends who have these jobs). If you're wondering "why bother?", the answer is that having any kind of elected office magnifies your influence with other representatives and stakeholders. It's also great practice.

Running for the kinds of offices everyone has heard of --- Congress and Senate --- is extremely expensive (in the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars) and, depending on the state you're in, might have a large component of building relationships with your state party. I say this not to discourage people from trying --- especially if you're thinking of running D in an unopposed R district or vice versa --- but to set expectations. Running your first time is easier than you probably think it is, as long as you pick the right office to run for.

If you're on a (recreational) Slack right now, consider opening up a channel and inviting people into it and spontaneously getting a couple people interested in running. I was on IRC channels in the 1990s that started companies that later sold for 9 figures (and the #!w00w00 people can tell you better stories). Getting a couple friends elected to their local library board seems like an extremely reasonable expectation to set for yourself.

If you're organizing something to get people to run for local office, I'm interested in talking/helping. I think there are a bunch of useful applications to be built here, and also a lot of opportunities for people to get together to share encouragement and notes.

OliverJones 4 days ago 2 replies      
Stale data, unfortunately. I could run for the US federal legislature, with an election day of Nov 8, 2016.

Also, no local elective offices in my jurisdiction.

saurik 4 days ago 0 replies      
Most people know they can run for federal and state offices, even if they don't know what district they are in (and this barely matters, as the election office will tell you); and while they don't know some of the more esoteric offices, those offices tend to not have much power.

What people usually don't know about is all of the local government positions that affect their daily lives: many of the things you care most about exist below the level of a city, and yet websites like this throw aside all of the water districts and park districts and commumity service districts as if they don't matter :/.

Honestly, as someone deeply involved in politics at this point, who burns a lot of time into trying to educate people as to how government works and how to get involved, I believe this website--which is so bad it didn't even include city council of a smaller city as a local result, returning only internal democratic party positions--can only do more harm than good.

jimterrapin 4 days ago 1 reply      
My name is Jim Cupples and I work on RunForOffice.org

Thank you for the comments and suggestions. We agree with the comment on student governments, by the way, and would be happy to include them.

Anyone can email me at jimcupples@gmail.com if they like

Tangurena2 4 days ago 0 replies      
I ran for elected office previously. It was a very educational experience. It was a state level office. While I didn't win, I had fun and planned on doing it again (I got sick in 2012 and 2016).

It cost me about $200 for my campaign, most of which went to GoDaddy for hosting. So don't think that you need a billion dollars to run for office (except if you want to run for US President).

EternalData 4 days ago 1 reply      
I always love technological solutions that ease the path forward to meaningful action.

I wonder if there's a way to algorithmically determine how a candidate with subpar funding could beat somebody established with many more (a playbook of kinds). That would be the next step forward -- sure, you can run, but it flips the dynamic when you're smart about running to win.

CM30 4 days ago 1 reply      
Interesting idea for a site. However, is there a version of this for people in countries outside of the US? Because as someone in the UK, I'd love to know what elected offices I'd be elligible to run for over here.

And I'm sure people in places like Canada, Australia, France, etc would be interested in a similar site for their country as well.

Still, seems pretty neat so far.

saycheese 4 days ago 1 reply      
Anyone know of training for running for office?

For example, for women, there's this course:


jimterrapin 4 days ago 0 replies      
I have to get to work, but would love to hear from anyone that's interested in this stuff. We are looking forward to building an API and helping people continue to build.

Mostly, we want people to simply know what they can run for and how to get on the ballot.

Inaccuracies on the site are my fault. I work with amazing students, mostly from USC, and we put it together as best we can. The shapefile stuff is also sometimes wonky. A GIS student from UCLA is the awesome person behind that.

Bedon292 4 days ago 0 replies      
I don't think just accepting an address is enough. Many of these positions have age and residency requirements. Or other requirements. I know they want to make it quick, but I am not eligible (yet) for most of the positions they listed, and would rather focus on a position I can actually run for.
robbyking 4 days ago 0 replies      
I searched for Athens, GA, and two positions in Chicago were included in the results:


xwowsersx 4 days ago 3 replies      
Is this a (clever) marketing stunt for NationBuilder?
1024core 4 days ago 1 reply      
I work fulltime. Can we filter for positions that do not require a fulltime commitment?
jedberg 4 days ago 1 reply      
This is handy, having a list of all the positions in one place with their filing deadline!

However, it is showing me a lot of "Next Election" times that were last year. I guess the data needs some cleanup.

Also, President seems to be missing. :)

dmschulman 4 days ago 1 reply      
Very cool! I like how you also provide resource to get one's candidacy started
kibwen 4 days ago 1 reply      
This is a great demonstration of the ways that people with technical skills can contribute to improve their communities. Enabling others to exercise their civic duties is just as valuable as exercising them yourself.
throwaway729 4 days ago 1 reply      
Is there any contact information for the site itself? The "APPLICATION GUIDELINES" and "submit application to" information for one of the positions I just viewed is inaccurate...
DrScump 4 days ago 1 reply      
I'd suggest a reword to "might be eligible" or "your residence qualifies for" or somesuch. Some offices have their own specific requirements, such as age or technical qualification.

For example, to run for California Attorney General, one "Must be admitted to practice before the state Supreme Court for at least five years immediately preceding election or appointment to the office".

tedchs 4 days ago 0 replies      
I was previously appointed to one of my town's local boards, reviewing aesthetics of new development. It was very rewarding in that I got to advocate for "fair" outcomes, sometimes as a lone dissenting voice. I also learned a ton about both government and architectural design. If I could do this in my mid-20s, so could many others.
a3n 4 days ago 0 replies      
After recent marches and protests, and the real but not necessarily self-sustaining enthusiasm that they generated, people ask "but what now?"

And the answer to that is to run for your state legislature. It's there that voting rules, and support for incumbent national members of Congress, are set and enforced.

Join the smoke filled room that's close to home.

tedchs 4 days ago 1 reply      
Is this run by Nation Builder (very much not a non-profit)? There are a couple links there from the homepage.
buckhx 4 days ago 1 reply      
I've thought about this in the past. If I wanted to run for governor of my home state in 20 years, what are things that I could be doing today to move towards that goal? I'd assume it would be running for smaller offices to gain some political experience and creating relationships.
MichaelGG 4 days ago 0 replies      
Doesn't seem to list president.
timdorr 4 days ago 1 reply      
Oddly, it gave me an office in Chicago when I searched my home address in Atlanta...
j_m_b 4 days ago 0 replies      
Great work!I would also include City Council and Local School Board. It would also be nice to list who the current office holder is and whether or not they ran unopposed.
codingdave 4 days ago 1 reply      
This does not seem to include any local offices... it begins at the state level for me. There are many city and county positions that are better beginnings.
kuschku 4 days ago 0 replies      
@mods: Could the title be changed? This seems to be US-only.
dsfyu404ed 4 days ago 0 replies      
Granted I'm not sure the impact (if any) it has but holy crap that's a pretty one sided sponsors list for something that's not a partisan issue.
downandout 4 days ago 0 replies      
Just a technical note: it shows that the "next election date" for several offices in my area is November 8, 2016.
anigbrowl 4 days ago 0 replies      
* unless you're a legal un-person in which case we'll exclude you from the political process as much as possible.
dragonwriter 4 days ago 0 replies      
Some glaring bugs, like showing some "next" election dates that are in the past, but definitely a good idea.
codeddesign 4 days ago 0 replies      
After looking at NC, I was astonished to realize that a congressman makes $50k more than the state's governor.
felipelemos 4 days ago 0 replies      
I find this incredible because politicians should not be a profession.
rc_bhg 4 days ago 0 replies      
Is there a site like except is tells me the exact day to go vote?
mastazi 4 days ago 0 replies      
(in USA)
sbw 4 days ago 1 reply      
What about local offices?
EGreg 4 days ago 3 replies      
Why would you want to become a cog in a machine when you can build your own?

Many people run for office thinking they can change the fundamental culture entrenched around them. But then they realize that there are so many existing systems safeguarding the status quo, that one person can't do it. You'd need to hire a whole new administration.

Instead, what if organizations would contract with one another for services and respect each other's cultures as a take-it-or-leave-it kind of thing? Then market discipline would apply.

Box Breathing quietkit.com
597 points by mkempe  2 days ago   123 comments top 27
visarga 2 days ago 7 replies      
It's been known for thousands of years in yoga as "samavritti pranayama", or "square breath". The advice is to count on the finger of one hand. Inhale while stepping 1 2 3 4, Hold 1 2 3 4, Exhale 1 2 3 4 and Hold 1 2 3 4. All of this without mentally counting, just use your fingers to do the steps. It is recommended before meditation for calming the agitated mind.

Another method is to count breaths in increasing cycles: 1; 1 2; 1 2 3; ...; 1 2 3 4 5 6 7;... Each number corresponds to one inhalation and exhalation. See how high you can count before making a mistake. This comes from Buddhism.

sunkencity 2 days ago 3 replies      
OK I got calmer, but then I got stressed out! the blue circle is not in the center of the black ring.
bkanber 2 days ago 4 replies      
There's growing evidence that breathing is linked to brain activity in interesting ways [1]. There's also the "4-7-8" breathing technique that is supposed to help you fall asleep faster. [2]

On top of that, concentrating on breathing takes your focus away from other inner monologue and intrusive thoughts; meditation programs typically start you off on that path.

[1] https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2016/12/rhythm-of-brea...

[2] http://www.medicaldaily.com/life-hack-sleep-4-7-8-breathing-...

ris 2 days ago 2 replies      
Point of note: those of you who also have their animated gifs set to run once and not loop, you're only supposed to stay exhaled for 4 seconds.

Don't do what I did.

beeswax 2 days ago 0 replies      
Is this what "Breathe" on the Apple Watch tries to help doing?

I never bothered to measure the intervals, so does anyone know if there's more to it? (the watch has access to heart rate and shows a current rate result afterwards; maybe it's adjusting heart rate goals over time?)

imchillyb 2 days ago 2 replies      
I got a laugh out of this.

You used a circle to depict "box breathing"; when you could just as easily have utilized a box.

vonnik 1 day ago 1 reply      
Any one interested in how changes in breathing affect their mood and physiology should check out Wim Hof: http://discover.wimhofmethod.com/sq/31699-welcome-to-the-wim...
brocore 1 day ago 1 reply      
Science is verifying a lot of the value in breathing practices. Check out this article on a specific technique as a treatment for depression. https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2016/novembe...

The box breathing works because it slows the breath down and brings it to a standard rhythm. Think of it this way, every emotion has a specific type of breath. When a person is experiencing sadness, happiness, anger, etc. there is specific pattern of breath that can be observed with regards to speed, length of inhale and exhale, depth, etc.

Emotion and breath are linked, and as the box breathing shows, it is a two way street. As emotions change, the breath does, but if we change our breath, our emotions do too. Have you ever been told to count slowly to ten when you're angry? Same principal.

mindfulgeek 2 days ago 1 reply      
Playing with your breath is the ultimate hack of the human mind. There are seemingly endless combinations of techniques that each have a unique physiological impact on the body. Use the right one at the right time and life flows smoothly.
yogrish 1 day ago 0 replies      
Nice way to get into focus on breathing. Mind is like a monkey, it keeps wandering. Keep it busy by asking it to watch or focus on breathing. De-stress and bringing emotions under control are just starting point of meditation. The next stage is achieved when we can do "Balancing breath". Our guru calls it "Gayathri sthithi". In this stage, both of our breaths (left and right nostrils ) are balanced. In normal conditions, either your left ( Ida or moon nadi) or right nostril ( pingala or surya) only has the air flow, based on your body type.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadi_(yoga). When both the breaths are balanced, your sushumna Nadi is activated. This is when you could achieve Spiritual state and a fantastic experiences will unfold before your inner vision. I am yet to experience it.

Our Guru, With his tough practices of Kriya yoga and other meditating techniques, could achieve this state and He can get into this Gayathri state at any time. This is THE ultimate state to experience the Universal source of energy. This is where every soul came from and will get into.

As technologists we are materialistic and we are operating in lower dimension.The other dimension (spiritual), once opened/experienced, can answer any question in this universe. This is how RUSHIs and yogis could fathom universal truths with out any scientific tools, eons before our modern science.

simooooo 2 days ago 2 replies      
`That's it!Repeat for as many times as you need to calm down.`

hmm.. you could apply that to anything

koolba 2 days ago 4 replies      
If you're ever in a "hold your breath" contest do this right before it starts.

You'll crush the competition by a wide margin (assuming they're not doing the same) and be amazed at how many minutes you can go.

crehn 2 days ago 1 reply      
Shameless mention of a related app that I built: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/calmly/id998619858?mt=8

Struggled with severe stress and IBS during my youth; controlled breathing was really one of the only things that had an (near-immediate) effect.

init0 1 day ago 0 replies      
https://breathe.now.sh add to your home screen
kranner 1 day ago 0 replies      
Many more related techniques in this book:https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/188192.Light_on_Pr_n_y_m...
kristofferR 2 days ago 4 replies      
Weird, I was just playing Wolfenstein: The New Order today, where the main protagonist uses this technique all the time. I'd never heard of this technique before that.

What's the phenomena called - where you encounter the same new thing multiple separate times within a short time frame?

pmoriarty 2 days ago 3 replies      
I feel short of breath when I try this.
stephengillie 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is something I started doing in my teenage years, to help measure and equalize my breathing while running. Count 1-2-3-4 while inhaling, then 1-2-3-4 while exhaling - while running. After some time, I could only count 1-2-3, measuring my fatigue through lack of breath. I thought it was just something my odd self made up, and never knew this was a significant activity.
knezmish 2 days ago 0 replies      
I thought it was more important to have a constant rhythm to your breathing, not necessarily how long you inhale/exhale.
crawfordcomeaux 1 day ago 0 replies      
Listen to "One More Robot / Sympathy 3000-21" by The Flaming Lips and breathe with the background piano chords. Great for square breathing.

For vortex breathing (in 3, out 5, no pause between either phase), listen to "Breathe (in the air)" by Pink Floyd.

adictator 1 day ago 0 replies      
I wished this followed the 4-7-8 breathing technique. I have been practicing this for the last few weeks and it has been a really positive experience for me.
bobnarizes 1 day ago 0 replies      
I found an App which does a great job!

Relapps - https://appsto.re/us/8PGcfb.i

flavor8 1 day ago 0 replies      
There's a great app in the Android store that has a variety of breathing based meditations - Prana Breath.
digi_owl 1 day ago 0 replies      
Meh, breathing in or out for 4 seconds is at least 2 seconds too long for me.
shripadk 1 day ago 0 replies      
Isn't this Pranayama?
2 days ago 2 days ago 1 reply      
lngnmn 1 day ago 0 replies      
It is nice to see a demonstration of the fundamental principle, described in the Patanjali's Yoga Sutra, in contrast to the cascades of bullshit of the Yoga Pradipika.

Humans bullshit everything, painting degrade to the modern colorful Warkshok inkblots, music - to sophisticated noise, yoga became a method of hipster's public snowflakery. Philosophy - Hegelian nonsense, politics - vagina marches.

Twitter discloses national security letters blog.twitter.com
548 points by arkadiyt  3 days ago   148 comments top 14
anw 3 days ago 1 reply      
This is a welcome message, especially seeing Twitter continue to fight for their freedom of speech in court (Twitter v. Lynch), along with the host of other Internet service companies.

While I understand government agencies' desires to investigate persons of interest, the checks and balances of the system were put in place to do just that check and balance the power of the system. It's outrageous that agencies feel they can side-step these checks and leave out the need to get a judge's approval for these kinds of things.

A response from the Internet Archive (2016) also stated:

> The NSL we received includes incorrect and outdated information regarding the options available to a recipient of an NSL to challenge its gag. Specifically, the NSL states that such a challenge can only be issued once a year. But in 2015, Congress did away with that annual limitation and made it easier to challenge gag orders. The FBI has confirmed that the error was part of a standard NSL template and other providers received NSLs with the same significant error. We dont know how many, but it is possibly in the thousands (according to the FBI, they sent out around 13,000 NSLs last year).

I wonder what kind of legal action could even be taken against this kind of treatment (being given wrong / outdated information on legal options)?

dmix 3 days ago 2 replies      
This is great Twitter is being open about these.

Do these releases get media coverage? Is anyone talking about the various lawsuits and blog posts about public releases of NSLs by tech companies?

I wish the NYTimes and WaPo spent as much time caring about this stuff as they did about being the non-critical mouthpiece for various "anonymous intelligence officials". There is definitely a story that could be made out of this plus the Cloudflare, Google, etc posts... so hopefully I'm proved wrong in this assessment.

> While the actual NSLs request a large amount of data, Twitter provides a very limited set of data in response to NSL

I'm curious just how much they asked for here. I'm guessing it's the user plus 2 hops of anyone they talked to? Including:

- DMs

- t.co links clicked on

- IP addresses when accessing twitter

- device IDs, browser, OS, etc

- phone numbers

- visits to URLs of 3rd party web pages containing embedded tweets? (not sure if this is tracked via cookie)

That could turn out to be plenty of data but I don't believe a single users data would be referenced by Twitter as "a large amount of data", it's very likely at least one hop or more, but who knows.

CaptSpify 3 days ago 1 reply      
Although they could have just sent it onto the intended target and gone quietly about their day, I'm really glad that Twitter made this an announcement. Do they have any kind of warrant canary system?
algesten 3 days ago 0 replies      
Given the size of their user base, makes you wonder how many of these they are not allowed to talk about...
wfunction 3 days ago 0 replies      
I have a related question:

Is there some kind of database anyone is keeping that helps the public figure out what information companies have been ordered to produce in the past, and what they have actually produced? (I don't specifically mean NSLs here -- subpoenas and any other things would all be included in my question.)

This would be useful in several respects, because it would not only provide a check on the government, but it would also provide a check on the companies. For example, can I be sure that if I delete something, and a company with my data claims it is deleted in 60 days, can I rely on it to be true? If the company has been ordered to produce such information in the past, knowing whether or not it has done so would seem to be the most foolproof way to figure out how much data the company retains or discards. Is anyone keeping such records publicly (insofar as the information is available)?

boomboomsubban 3 days ago 0 replies      
Like the internet archive letters, these are only released as a legal error on the part of the FBI made regarding the ability to challenge the order. This is not the government deciding to lift the order voluntarily, and is not a sign of more transparency from their end.
martinvol 3 days ago 2 replies      
Wait a minute, Do they still really use typewriters?
awqrre 2 days ago 0 replies      
They disclosed what they were allowed to disclose... that doesn't tell you much...
bitslave 2 days ago 0 replies      
"The FBI recently informed us that the gag orders have been lifted and that we may notify the account holders"

How recently? Why?

freshyill 3 days ago 0 replies      
I wonder how many NSLs they're going to start getting because of all the rogue government agencies.
ensiferum 2 days ago 2 replies      
And Americans think that they have freedom.

In general for anyone conscious about freedom of speech and press it should alarming how certain agencies breach people's data and then put gag orders in place. This isn't freedom, this is tyranny.

The citizens of North-Korea probably have more freedom that then the citizens of USA.

thedevil 3 days ago 10 replies      
Is this the same Twitter that has allegedly shadowbanned Scott Adams multiple times for his political positions? If Twitter is interested in transparency, how about some transparency on that? Twitter's actions make me distrust any "transparency" talk, even if I disagree with Adams on certain things.
baybal2 2 days ago 1 reply      
dgrealy 3 days ago 3 replies      
It's important to remember that these orders serve a real and necessary role in investigating serious criminals; these individuals are not named prior to trial or if the investigation does not lead to a trial. It should not be assumed that they were being unlawfully persecuted - rather that there was a serious reason for them to be under investigation.
Iranian MIT student goes home over break, denied return for spring semester whitehouse.gov
596 points by obi1kenobi  2 days ago   355 comments top 45
intro-b 2 days ago 8 replies      
How this is happening, the exact trajectory of how much worse these things are (and its potential to worsen) is somewhat terrifying, especially when you consider the cavalier disregard and easy ignorance that this policy represents. I know classmates and colleagues and friends who are discussing, in their groups and communities, how to best help people stranded, whether or not vacations and returns to see ill family members must be postponed or canceled, and how future plans to stay, live, and work in the U.S., or abroad, must be changed.


While it's been easy to think about many possible negative outcomes in the proceeding days, weeks, months, another subtle aspect of this policy's ramifications is how it weakens trust and faith in the concept of stability for future American policy the likelihood of future government actions, executed with little to no foresight, warning, or serious consideration, with serious consequences. How this effects this country's current reputation as a place to study, travel, find work, and start families + settle down can't be understated.

jasonjei 2 days ago 4 replies      
What's scary is the new immigration ban affects legal, permanent residents. US legal, permanent residents that have firmly rooted their lives in the US, only to be told they can't come home.
ImTalking 2 days ago 3 replies      
It's so easy to see the outcome of these policies. Intolerance begats intolerance begats violence. There can be no other outcome other than an increase in violence, both domestic and international. And what will Trump do when the violence increases? He will whip the masses up with frenzied speeches and double-down on the executive orders to limit immigration. But the violence will not abate but will worsen. So finally, he will institute orders to deal with the violence, not the immigration orders that are the cause, but the violence. Protests will be banned, people will be put in prison, violence will be quashed by even more violent means, and they'll need to clothe these violence-quashers and will decide that brown shirts are the appropriate colour.
tyfon 2 days ago 2 replies      
A friendly reminder from over the pond (that is Europe).


You need to speak up now, or one does not know where this will end.

Thriptic 2 days ago 0 replies      
Researchers in our lab at MIT are also under pressure. One cannot return home for fear of losing his visa and the other is potentially stuck abroad.
crispinb 2 days ago 1 reply      
The unfortunate fact is no-one who matters cares about this.

Who matters? Not the US public: von Clownstick & co know it will be forgetten in a month or three, and by the next election (if there is another election) enough red meat can be thrown to the know-nothing base to "win" again.

Who matters: other wealthy nation governments. That's it. And none of them, however loudly they profess civilised values, will risk a hair on their precious bankers' heads to protect distant low-status nonwhite humans. That's a plain fact.

We all know what ought to happen: civilised nations should band together and just say no to America. An escalating series of sanctions, starting with trade, going via targeted military cooperation downgrades, and ending with cancelling all visas to US citizens. Some nations have strong leverage over America, eg. Australia threatening access to Pine Gap would make the US tremble.

None of this can or will happen, and we will plunge into the abyss. WWI and II were prequels. RIP homo sapiens. You will be little missed by our once-glorious planet's other sentient beings.

cpcat 2 days ago 2 replies      
It's really hypocritical that you only start noticing this happening now. The same has happened under Obama. I have a friend who was denied going back to University of Chicago last year https://www.facebook.com/ridakoon/posts/10158098402210427?pn...
finid 2 days ago 1 reply      
When I was in grad school, most of the grad students in virtually all the science and engineering depts were foreign students.

And what most people don't realize is that without grad students, most research will be severely impacted. So if this continues at the rate it's going, we begin to lose foreign grad students to other countries.

I hope this ends well, but I have my doubts.

hackuser 2 days ago 0 replies      
Let's remember that most people affected have far fewer resources and opportunity than an MIT student; most people's predicaments will not be on HN's front page or a Whitehouse.gov petition.
obi1kenobi 2 days ago 3 replies      
Please also remember to sign the petition, in addition to discussing it in the comments! 100k signatures is a lot, but not for HackerNews ;)
lazyant 2 days ago 6 replies      
Proud to be Canadian, see our PM's latest tweets https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/825438460265762816
Svip 2 days ago 3 replies      
Does the White House Petition website still work? I mean, I am surprised it is still up. Surely the new administration would A) not pay attention to it and B) simply scrap it to avoid maintaining it.

As far as I understand, there is no legal requirement for the White House to even entertain the petitions.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_the_People_(petitioning_sys...

kevinburke 2 days ago 1 reply      
Foreign students nearly always pay full tuition at US universities and help keep them afloat. Making the US undesirable for immigrants is going to make it harder for US colleges and universities to offer a great education.
moinnadeem 2 days ago 1 reply      
Undergrad at MIT here, thanks for signing! Our community has been fairly troubled by this to say the least, and your outpour of support is incredibly helpful.
chrisper 2 days ago 1 reply      
This is another reason why I decided to move back to Europe after I am done studying than trying to work on H1B. I just really do not need the stress of having to worry if I'll be kicked out overnight or not. I would probably be fine, as I am not a Muslim, but still. No thanks. Trump could make "America great again" any minute and just decide to kick out any non-American.
suprgeek 2 days ago 0 replies      
This is the time to make as much noise as you can - protest, call your congress person, etc.

This is the time to follow the "no quarter given" tactics of the NRA - they get their members to show up at any legislation anywhere that even smells of Gun control and raise a massive ruckus - similarly the time to protest is NOW before Trump rolls out the really evil stuff.

robg 2 days ago 0 replies      
Just so we're clear, 412 people have voted this up in 2 hours, with another 226 comments, but not one has signed the petition?

EDIT: I just signed the petition, and with email verification, and it's not showing up. Anyone else having that problem?

wallace_f 2 days ago 5 replies      
I don't think it is by chance or coincidence that Trump's admin is targeting Iranians. What really is it with American government hating Iran and Iranians, when there are equal or even worse ethnocentric, human-rights-abusing, racially intolerant states in the Middle East?
kome 2 days ago 1 reply      
America, what you have done?

Good luck with this petition! Let's fight for an open world.

jest3r1 2 days ago 1 reply      
Wasn't Steve Jobs biological father a Syrian Immigrant or Refugee?
crb002 2 days ago 1 reply      
While I understand Trump's motive to micromanage Saudi, Yemen, and Syria due to ongoing military conflict ... Iran makes no sense. Reminds me of a South Park Episode, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Yikes!
ryderm 2 days ago 1 reply      
Anybody else seeing that the site is broken? It says 1 vote still, even after signing and confirming my email.
LyalinDotCom 2 days ago 0 replies      
we need to setup ways for any students stuck outside the country with this madness to still be able to continue their studios for the 3-month period (or however long it takes) using digital tools like Skype calling into classes and other things that can be setup.

We cant give up on those who love to learn and want better lives for themselves and their families.

This is just such depressing madness.

_ph_ 2 days ago 0 replies      
It is so easy to say country X or religion Y is evil, but this shows, effectively this could mean your neighbor, friend or colleague. People, who are not political but just try live and work and be a part of the community like everyone else.
obi1kenobi 2 days ago 0 replies      
"The federal court for the Eastern District of New York issued an emergency stay halting President Donald Trumps executive order banning entry to the US from seven majority-Muslim countries tonight, following widespread protests at airports around the country."


coldtea 2 days ago 0 replies      
I'm all against this immigration ban, but where were the tears and protests when the previous administrations targeted the same places killing thousands?
gerbilly 1 day ago 0 replies      
From what I hear, Iranian schools and universities are excellent.[1]

I work at a company where we have several Iranian researchers working as interns, and they are doing excellent work.

If the US doesn't want Iranian engineers and scientists, then I'm sure Canada will be glad to have them.

[1] When I was in high school Iranian students of 9th grade age who immigrated to Canada would immediately be placed in our 12th grade math classes-and they would still get top marks.

slantaclaus 1 day ago 0 replies      
Seriously the fact that it still only says 1/100,000 signatures on Sunday morning is a conspiracy in my book. I've got a feeling petitions to the White House will have to be done somewhere other than whitehouse.gov during this presidency.
pedalpete 2 days ago 1 reply      
Though I see this is a whitehouse.gov site, I'm curious as to what counts as a legitimate signature. I'm not American, not a resident, and not in America, so what happens if I sign this petition?

Does anybody know how they figure this out? Do a bunch of signatures from people who have no rights in the US invalidate the petition?

slantaclaus 2 days ago 0 replies      
Why does it say only one person signed it right now? Surely I'm not the only one
wslh 2 days ago 0 replies      
The MIT should offer a remote study plan to these students.
tehlike 1 day ago 0 replies      
jejay 2 days ago 0 replies      
Why is there just one signiture? I'm not a US citizen so I won't sign, but what is holding back the rest of us?
hallman76 1 day ago 1 reply      

@daxorid shared his view - which wasn't inflammatory. The comment was downvoted, then flagged before I could reply.

Terrifying, how? This is what Trump promised, and the reason we voted for him. Half of us are quite happy to see campaign promises actually implemented.

HN is acting as if this was capricious and unplanned. In fact, it's what half of us wanted.

@daxorid voted for a political party that you disagree with. If they can't share their views openly and honestly we won't learn from their perspective.

Based on a tiny sample of GOP friends, they agree with @daxorid. Those friends voted for Trump based on campaign promises and they're happy that he's following-through those promises. For me this was a sort of "oh shit" moment. What else did he promise?? WP has a list:https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-promi...

Half of the country is excited by that list. The other half is not.

frankzinger 1 day ago 0 replies      
I'd like to point out that the article is a Whitehouse petition and that only a single person has signed it thus far, but it was posted 8 hours ago!
codybrown 2 days ago 2 replies      
I wonder what YC Part Time Partner Peter Thiel thinks of this...
Kinnard 1 day ago 0 replies      
I don't think we can trust a petition site hosted by the whitehouse . . . at all.
Keyframe 2 days ago 0 replies      
What are the mechanics of this ban? I see student was denied from connecting flight. What happens if said student travels to, I don't know, Germany first. Spends there a day or two and hops on a flight to US of A?

I ask because I understand ban is for admission of refugees and travellers from seven countries. Not nationalities.

banku_brougham 1 day ago 0 replies      
So there are 300+ comments but is anyone going to sign the petition?
akhilcacharya 2 days ago 0 replies      
Absolutely sickening. No other words to put it.
marcoperaza 2 days ago 3 replies      
[removed potentially incorrect information]
nopit 2 days ago 0 replies      
242 comments and 1 signature
dboreham 2 days ago 2 replies      
Well, right now a Queen doesn't look like such a bad idea..
return0 2 days ago 1 reply      
Trump is creating a bargaining chip for america. This is a ploy, not s long term plan. I wonder what he ll ask in return for lifting the ban
akerro 2 days ago 1 reply      
A lot of international students in UK think the same about Brexit, once pound hits 1:1 with Euro there will be less reasons to stay in the UK for them. What means less people will pay their student loans from government, and UK will lose access to European bailiffs...
Mirroring US climate data climatemirror.org
447 points by pirocks  5 days ago   162 comments top 23
jszymborski 4 days ago 1 reply      
If you want to help towards archiving climate data and other gov't public datasets, join the ArchiveTeam effort. All you need is to run their ftp-gov-grab script and a bit of bandwidth. VPSs work very well for this sort of thing, so if you have a box lying around, just run the script.

More info at the wiki: http://archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Ftp-gov

Ftp-gov-grab: https://github.com/ArchiveTeam/ftp-gov-grab

Join us on IRC: #cheetoflee on freenode

fsttx 4 days ago 5 replies      
Another useful tactic is to archive news and commentary (left and right) about current political events, both for accountability and perhaps, to prevent the rewriting of history in the era of "alternative facts".
hunterwerlla 4 days ago 3 replies      
In torrent form: http://climatetorrent.com/Torrents are a great way of maintaining data integrity and allowing future sharing easily.
trothamel 4 days ago 6 replies      
Can I be the first to claim that the people running the mirror are changing the data for their own nefarious purposes?

Not that I believe this or anything, but come on - you know that accusation is going to go around. It might make sense to use a remote server to timestamp files as they're uploaded, or something like that.

danbruc 4 days ago 8 replies      
Having backups is obviously always a good idea but that aside, how likely is it, that mirroring this data is actually necessary? There are obviously at least some people believing that it is necessary but then there are always people convinced that the most silly things are necessary. I am really unable to tell whether this is more of an overreaction or an urgent necessity, especially as someone not living in the US. Is the future just [perceived as] so unpredictable, that better safe than sorry is the right mindset?
beams_of_light 4 days ago 3 replies      
I'm sincerely dismayed that this is necessary.
olivierlacan 4 days ago 0 replies      
Feels like the most important things people with some spare cash can do to help this project is help them raise money to host the mirrored climate science data on online.net: https://www.generosity.com/volunteer-fundraising/climate-mir...
Tempest1981 4 days ago 4 replies      
I heard that Trump has given NOAA 100 days to justify their existence, or face heavy cuts. Does anyone know the details?

Here is the closest article I could find: http://www.salon.com/2016/11/23/politicizing-climate-change-...

hackuser 4 days ago 1 reply      
> We are working to set up a secure and completely anonymous file deposit system for the future.

Provide a mailing address to which to send hard drives.

po 4 days ago 0 replies      
Awesome. Is there the same thing but for all public datasets? I saw recently someone showed a federal site had put up a (hastily hacked in) link to download all data on the day of the inauguration. I bet there are a lot of federal employees who would like a well-resourced site to upload to.
nandhp 4 days ago 0 replies      
Is this project collaborating with Archive Team? They have quite a lot of experience with this sort of scraping+archiving project (e.g. Geocities, Google Reader, Coursera, etc.).


XorNot 4 days ago 0 replies      
It would be a good use of IPFS to mirror this data into that network.
hackuser 4 days ago 0 replies      
It's great to see their efforts. What are you doing? What am I doing? Reading about it isn't nearly enough.
mynewtb 4 days ago 0 replies      
This would be perfect for IPFS I think.
cema 4 days ago 0 replies      
As much as I maintain a skeptical attitude to all sides of this scientific (and political) issue, I absolutely support the effort to keep the data available to the public. Science cannot move forward without the data (and metadata) available for everyone. Even more generally, society would suffer if it is not available.

(When I say "metadata", I refer to the data sources, methods of the data acquisition and so on. When a scientific field is politicised it is not only hard to trust the models but even the data, so I think the metadata are very important, if they are available.)

fenollp 4 days ago 0 replies      
Alternative facts will push us to find a way to discontinue them.

What is left to do to have truly open computation?* somewhat-to completely free computational power?: CircleCI, Travis CI, whatever* open source repositories to run code from?: Github hooks and others* trusting trust?* open hardware?* decentralized websites?

philippnagel 4 days ago 1 reply      
Might be a use case for https://datproject.org.
gglitch 4 days ago 0 replies      
Is there a publicly-available blockchain specifically for checksums of journalism and research?
dyukqu 4 days ago 2 replies      
Slightly off-topic, but my guess is that the next 4 years will be the golden age of privacy (in general), file-sharing and maybe even distributed web & federated services - for the US at least.
cool_look 4 days ago 1 reply      
So now we have complete polarisation.

Left leaning people will not accept any science generated under a Right leaning government

and as we already know Right leaning people find it hard to trust the science coming from a Left leaning government.

godshatter 4 days ago 1 reply      
Although NoScript and uBlock Origin show nothing being blocked, I still end up with a blank page when trying to view this site. Maybe it's a Pale Moon thing.
angelohuang 4 days ago 0 replies      
While I appreciate the sentiment, I think this whole notion of an AntiScience threat due to the new administration is a bit sensationalized.
notsrg 4 days ago 0 replies      
Surprised there's no comment here regarding the claim that using Dropbox is anonymous...
The internals of PostgreSQL interdb.jp
473 points by adamnemecek  5 days ago   53 comments top 5
elvinyung 4 days ago 0 replies      
A really cool paper to read is The Design of POSTGRES [1] by Stonebraker et al. It's dated by its mentions of things like POSTQUEL, but it's still really interesting to read about the early design of seminal features like the extensible ADT system, from a time when it was still innovative.

1: http://db.cs.berkeley.edu/papers/ERL-M85-95.pdf

combatentropy 4 days ago 3 replies      
I would like to read through this when I'm not so tired. Thank you!

From what I can tell, PostgreSQL is sensibly structured. At least, it seems better than MySQL. The hackiest thing I have heard so far about MySQL is that if you run the exact same SQL text more than once, it will fetch the result from cache. If you run a differently worded query, it will skip the cache, even if the query were to bring back the exact same data.

This is different than what I remember about PostgreSQL (correct me if I'm wrong). I remember reading in some book that PostgreSQL just let its rows become memory pages, and if a query resulted in data already in memory, then it got it from memory, otherwise it got it from disk. No need to make sure you didn't insert a space or something into your query the second time.

crudbug 4 days ago 4 replies      
I have been reading about Postgres architecture. The modular design enables - microkernel-like API where different languages can be integrated seamlessly.

The only thing, I am missing are incremental materialized views.

alexwebb2 4 days ago 4 replies      
This is now returning a 403 Forbidden.
sqldba 4 days ago 2 replies      
It looks GREAT but...

I always see these things posted while they're still being written and then I never go back to see them when they're completed. And nobody posts when it's completed.

I'd prefer the posting not be done until it's finished, or, that there be an "email me when it's finished" button.

Site Reliability Engineering landing.google.com
492 points by packetslave  3 days ago   107 comments top 17
general_ai 2 days ago 7 replies      
Anyone who has ever seen the deployment diagram of Google's ad serving will vouch that Google simply cannot exist without great SREs. If you like both dev ops and software engineering, and have found that your affinity to dev ops makes you a black sheep, I encourage you to apply to an SRE position at Google. I can state unequivocally, that SRE's are held in great regard at Google, and they receive a tremendous amount of respect. This is helped somewhat by the fact that you have to actually earn their support. Until your service is considered maintainable and observable enough to not cause pain, you'll be doing your own DevOps. It's only when you pass the PRR (production readiness review) that you _might_ get _some_ SRE help.

Disclosure: I'm a former Google employee

nunez 2 days ago 4 replies      
I read halfway through the book. I was also on a SRE team at Google. Some of my ex teammates co-authored or contributed to this book.

I think that much of what Google is espousing is only applicable to companies like Google, I.e. Technology companies with billions in the bank to spend on extra nine's.

The "problem" is much more fundamental. Most businesses still feel that technology is a cost to debit against the business. As long as those in charge feel this way, the issues that necessitate a book like this will continue to persist.

lgierth 3 days ago 0 replies      
Added it to IPFS: https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmTfeaEwMSKzoA4TFS6G7Qz2p6XZ9pP89VVod42...

Command: wget --mirror --convert-links --no-parent --no-verbose https://landing.google.com/sre/book/

packetslave 2 days ago 0 replies      
Thank you, anonymous HN editor, for editing the title of my post from a useful description of the link to a completely meaningless one. Yes, it's now a copy/paste of the <TITLE> tag of the site, but it's now entirely information-free. Good job. You should be proud.
pram 3 days ago 3 replies      
It's really a shame that "SRE" came to mean entry level server janitor at so many companies when it strikes me as a very senior role.
HarrisonFisk 2 days ago 1 reply      
If you find this book interesting, a good video which talks about Production Engineering at Facebook and talks a bit about Google SRE:


ucaetano 2 days ago 0 replies      
A cool quote:

"And taking the historical view, who, then, looking back, might be the first SRE?

We like to think that Margaret Hamilton, working on the Apollo program on loan from MIT, had all of the significant traits of the first SRE."

kevan 3 days ago 0 replies      
Lots of great concepts in this book, highly recommended to anyone, not just people going down the SRE track.
sh_tinh_hair 2 days ago 0 replies      
Firstly: I've administered and designed large CI/CD real world installations for what would be single project scope at Google and those efforts are challenging enough for me.

The book was informative as it contains true to life episodes in a huge (and formative) devops environment.But ,in general, there was nothing that I took away from the Google SRE 'way'...except that I have no desire to work in a huge and hugely rigorous devops environmentlike the one at Google (though I see it's necessityat that scale).

Under the guise of being creative and solving unique problems you eventually drill down to the reality of a pseudo-religious approach to building,maintaining and administering rapidly changing large systems.

I'd argue that the truly valuable parts of the book for most folks are snippets on the evolution of Google infra, component reuse, design philosophy and lessons learned. These are valuable for any size environment doing any sort of computing.

peterwwillis 2 days ago 1 reply      
I hope someone writes (has written?) a book about operations engineering that isn't from the perspective of an "internet company". Google's approach is that of some software devs who were tasked with maintaining infrastructure. Which is markedly different than typical Enterprise-scale engineering, even if Google is bigger than most enterprise orgs.
omegote 2 days ago 0 replies      
I interviewed for an SRE position and unfortunately, after all the interview process, I wasn't offered a job. However I was impressed by how wide the knowledge of the SRE team is. One would think that a devops just needs a shallow understanding of programming (for example), but the interviews were as varied as they were deep. Too bad I didn't make it.
peatfreak 2 days ago 2 replies      
Can anybody recommend good books (other than the SRE Book), blogs, mailing lists, IRC channels, articles, videos, etc, that have SRE as the focus and go into it deeply?

For example, I'm looking for forums where you can engage in serious discussion about the role, or other books/blogs/articles that aren't simply regurgitating what the SRE Book says.

partycoder 2 days ago 1 reply      
Monitoring is the last line of defense and is by nature reactive, rather than preventive.

On the other hand, testing (e.g: unit testing, load testing, etc.) is the preventive counterpart.

Both are important and necessary and should not be neglected.

riteshkpr 3 days ago 0 replies      
this book is my first intro to SRE. lots of relevant concepts. very well written.
always_learning 2 days ago 0 replies      
Ahh yes finally a book! Now I can learn more about the role to see if I'd like to apply. I've always liked writing code and devops. Perhaps this is a perfect role.
murtnowski 2 days ago 1 reply      
Does Amazon have an equivalent position as an SRE?
imcoconut 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is great.
Things Every Hacker Once Knew catb.org
525 points by ingve  3 days ago   315 comments top 41
soneil 3 days ago 8 replies      
I always thought it was a shame the ascii table is rarely shown in columns (or rows) of 32, as it makes a lot of this quite obvious. eg, http://pastebin.com/cdaga5i1

It becomes immediately obvious why, eg, ^[ becomes escape. Or that the alphabet is just 40h + the ordinal position of the letter (or 60h for lower-case). Or that we shift between upper & lower-case with a single bit.

esr's rendering of the table - forcing it to fit hexadecimal as eight groups of 4 bits, rather than four groups of 5 bits, makes the relationship between ^I and tab, or ^[ and escape, nearly invisible.

It's like making the periodic table 16 elements wide because we're partial to hex, and then wondering why no-one can spot the relationships anymore.

TorKlingberg 3 days ago 10 replies      
A lot of hardware still uses serial, and not just industrial stuff. Everything from sewing machines to remote controlled cameras.

If you work on embedded devices you will still encounter serial/RS-232 all the time. Often through USB-to-serial chips, which only adds to the challenge because they are mostly unreliable crap. Then there are about 30 parameters to configure on a TTY. About half do absolutely nothing, a quarter completely breaks the signal giving you silence or line noise, the final quarter only subtly breaks the signal, occasionally corrupting your data.

Still, there is nothing like injecting a bootloader directly to RAM over JTAG, running that to get serial and upload a better bootloader, writing it to flash and finally getting ethernet and TCP/IP up.

erikb 3 days ago 1 reply      
Funny, had to learn all this stuff for my Master's thesis as it was a crucial part of my project to provide reliable shell command exchange via serial connection. It was really really hard to find anybody who knows anything about this lower network level and terminals.

What I can add for everybody who feels the same disappointment as ESR: It's very common for a growing community that three things happen.

A) The number of people with just a little knowledge over the holy grail of your community increases.

B) The popular communication is taken over by great communicators who care more about their publicity than your holy grail.

C) This gives the impression that the number of really cool people decreases. And that is depressing to old timers. But it's in fact often not true. Actually most often the number of cool people increases too! It's just that their voices are drowned in all the spam of what I like to call the "Party People" (see B).

So yes, you can actually cheer. It's harder to find the other dudes, but there are more of them! Trust me, I'm not the oldest guys here but I've seen some communities grow and die till now, and it's nearly always like that.

Waterluvian 3 days ago 4 replies      
When you find swaths of knowledge that younger people don't know, you've found success in the overall human goal of abstracting concepts and building on the shoulders of those who came before us.

I'm not suggesting the article is a, "Gosh, Millenials!" conversation. I just get a warm tingle when reminded that I have absolutely no clue how to do something people did just a generation ago, and I don't need to. It's success!

coderjames 3 days ago 1 reply      
Many of the control codes are still in active use today in the air-ground communications protocol spoken between airplanes and Air Traffic Control.

The ACARS[0] protocol I work with every day starts each transmission with an SOH, then some header data, then an STX to start the payload, then ends with either an ETX or an ETB depending on whether the original payload had to be fragmented into multiple transmissions or fits entirely into one.

These codes aren't archaic and obsolete in the embedded avionics world.

[0] ACARS: "Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System" - see ARINC specification 618[1]


OliverJones 3 days ago 5 replies      
Those DB9 and DB25 connectors are still kicking around the bottom of my toolbox.

Why is DEL's bit value 0xff (or 0255)? Because there was a gadget out there for editing paper tape. Yes. You could delete a character by punching out the rest of the holes in the tape frame. I used it once. It was ridiculous.

TeMPOraL 3 days ago 6 replies      
I'm sad that "[FGRU]S ({Field|Group|Record|Unit} Separator)" didn't get much use, and instead we have to rely on tabs or commas (TSV / CSV), and suffer from the problem of quoting / escaping.

BTW, I use Form Feed (CTRL+L) character in my code to divide sections, and have configured Emacs to display them as a buffer-wide horizontal line.

cyberferret 3 days ago 7 replies      
Things that I still find hard to forget these days:

* ASCII codes for those single and double box characters, so I could draw a fancy GUI on those old IBM text monitors

* Escape codes for HP Laserjets and Epson printers for bold, compressed character sizes etc.

* Batch file commands

* Essential commands for CONFIG.SYS

* Hayes modem control codes

* Wordstar dot format commands

* WordPerfect and DisplayWriter function keys

* dBaseII commands for creating, updating and manupulating records

I wish they would all move out of my head and leave room for me to learn some new stuff quicker!

davidwihl 3 days ago 3 replies      
Fun fact about octal: every commercial and most non-commercial aircraft have a transponder to identify with Air Traffic Control. The squawk code is in octal.


krylon 3 days ago 9 replies      
The fact that Windows uses CR-LF as a line separator baffles me to this day (and I am not old enough to have ever used or even seen a teletype terminal!) - for a system that was developed on actual teletype terminals, it would have made perfect sense: To start a new line, you move the carriage back to the beginning of the line and advance the paper by one line.

But DOS was developed on/for systems with CRT displays.

It doesn't really bother me, but every now and then this strikes me as peculiar.

Freak_NL 3 days ago 2 replies      
> It is now possible that the user has never seen a typewriter, so this needs explanation []

Aw man I'm only 36, but now I feel old for growing up in a time where a typewriter was still common enough to run into (even if they were rapidly being displaced by personal computers).

They still exist in the wild though as a hipster accessory they probably do well on Instagram too I suppose.

falsedan 3 days ago 4 replies      
Ah the good old days, when hackers were hackers and quiches were quiches.

Oh wait, this article is 'man ascii' & 'man kermit'.

alblue 3 days ago 0 replies      
I gave a talk on the origins of Unicode a while ago (now published on InfoQ at https://www.infoq.com/presentations/unicode-history if you're interested) where I talked about ASCII, and where that came from in the past (including baudot code and teletype).

The slide pertaining to ASCII is here:


pjmorris 3 days ago 3 replies      
Does anyone remember EBCDIC? IBM defined EBCDIC for the same purposes as ASCII, but ASCII took off with newer generations of machines. The last time I wrote an ASCII-EBCDIC conversion routine was the late 90's, part of generating a file for upload to a vendor's mainframe.
cpr 3 days ago 0 replies      
ESR forgot to give the reason for XON/XOFF: physical terminals often couldn't keep up with an output stream even at a low 9600 baud, so they'd have to back-pressure the sender (usually a dial-up or direct-connect host) to let them know when to stop and when to start.

Plus, people used them manually (control-S/control-Q) on systems to stop output scrolling by, and restart it when they've read what's on the screen, before built-in pagination filters (e.g., more(1) or less(1)) became common. (Specially back in the DECsystem-10/-20 days.)

charles-salvia 3 days ago 1 reply      
Not to mention how the truly ubiquitous HTTP protocol uses CRLF in the headers. The mechanical origins of the CR/LF combo were so strongly ingrained in developer culture that line oriented protocols like HTTP inexplicably continued to use it - either that or Tim Berners Lee just copied it from earlier line oriented protocols like SMTP because it just seemed like the "right way to do things".

It also doesn't help that most modern web servers also include logic to handle a single LF character to terminate lines anyway.

diebir 3 days ago 0 replies      
RS-232 is invaluable. Give me a new piece of hardware and as long as there are 2 wires for the serial port I can port Linux kernel to it.

I have ported Linux to a custom ARM board many years ago. Started with a boot loader written in assembly and writing a single char into serial port for a debug console. It takes a single line of assembly or C. Infinitely easier than USB. From there on, I was able to unwind the whole system, develop USB drivers, TCP tunnels, etc.

jecel 3 days ago 1 reply      
The following table describes ASCII-1965, the version in use today. It used to be common knowledge that the original 1963 ASCII had been sightly different (lacking tilde and vertical bar) but that version went completely extinct after ASCII-1965 was promulgated.

Not quite true - early adopters like DEC kept using the 1963 version for a very long time, which prompted others to follow them. When the Smalltalk group decided to replace their own characters for ASCII in Smalltalk-80 to be compatible with the rest of the world, it was the 1963 version that they used.

Due to this, since I use the Celeste program in Squeak Smalltalk to read my email, I see a left arrow whenever someone wrote an underscore. The other difference is that I have an up arrow instead of ^. But it did adopt the vertical bar and tilde from 1967 ASCII, so it was a mix.

aap_ 3 days ago 1 reply      
And yet he doesn't know the PDP-11 is an octal machine even though it's 16 bits.
kps 3 days ago 0 replies      
> ENQ (Enquiry), ACK (Acknowledge)In the days of hardware serial terminals, there was a convention that if a computer sent ENQ to a terminal, it should reply with terminal type identification followed by ACK. While this was not universal, it at least gave computers a fighting chance of autoconfiguring what capabilities it could assume the character to have.

That's not quite right (the ACK part isn't right at all). See <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enquiry_character>.

nerdponx 3 days ago 2 replies      
Why did the end-of-line indicator settle on LF and opposed to CRLF? Naively, the latter makes more sense to me by virtue of it being more explicit. Do Unix-alikes always inject a CR after a LF?
inlineint 3 days ago 3 replies      
The article recalls teletype terminals. I'm just putting a video showing how it worked in close: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MikoF6KZjm0 . It hypnotizes IMO :)

I'd like to see how looks editing and running BCPL/C programs using ed on such a terminal.

alphonsegaston 3 days ago 3 replies      
I always thought that instead of these lamentations about lost knowledge, people should just put together resource guides to maintain these skills. Hackers used to know these things? If they're still useful to know, how can I learn about them today? Otherwise, it just sounds like the worst combination of geek posturing and "kids these days."
billpg 3 days ago 4 replies      
Wasn't "{Field|Group|Record|Unit} Separator" meant to allow an alternative to using commas in CSV data?
rocky1138 3 days ago 0 replies      
Seeing this reminds me of how things were and to be thankful for how far things have come.
quietriot 3 days ago 0 replies      
Read this. Or at least take a look for some historical insight. It is both dry and interesting.

An annotated history of some character codes or ASCII: American Standard Code for Information Infiltration


It describes how we got here in excruciating detail, starting with Morse. Military communication systems had great influence. Before the ASCII, as we know it today, there was an "ASCII-1963" that was a bit different.

The long and winding path:MorseBaudotMurrayITA2FIELDATAASCII-1963ASCII-1967

cesarb 3 days ago 2 replies      
> SO (Shift Out), SI (Shift In): Escapes to and from an alternate character set. These are never interpreted in this fashion by Unix or any other software I know of [...]

Aren't SO and SI used by the ISO-2022-JP character encoding?

Derbasti 3 days ago 1 reply      
Isn't BS used in combination with other characters to encode non-character terminal information, like text color changes? In some programs, `]\b` for example will change the text color.

The `]` character itself will not be printed, since `\b` will delete it from the visual line, and this effectively creates a side-channel for communicating "invisible" information within the regular character stream.

It's a pain to work with, though, since it makes things like `strlen` behave in very non-intuitive ways. Just imagine a string becoming longer when you delete the BS character. That's no fun.

cafard 3 days ago 0 replies      
Ha! The first technical book I ever bought was The RS-232 Solution. It is not impossible that I bought it at an airport bookstore--this was in the mid-1980s.
akavel 3 days ago 2 replies      
Hm, maybe that's the way how we can try fixing the "programmers don't know their ancestors' discoveries" issue? By "older" programmers blogging about things that are obvious to them, but apparently no longer to people? in a somewhat loose "old folk stories" style, but slightly more dense than the pure "funny folklore tales" like what did Jobs say to woz, or esr quip to ken?
fmstephe 3 days ago 2 replies      
The really sad thing is that 40 years later, our operating systems are still built around the notion of teletype terminals, hierarchical filesystems invented around the file cabinet metaphor, and files as streams of bytes. We invent so many abstractions on top to overcome their limitations but rarely question the existence of these baroque elements which sit below everything else.
eldavido 3 days ago 1 reply      
I'm working on a greenfield project at a hotel where we've had to interface with a Mitel PBX over RS-232.

I was shocked how literally the ASCII codes were followed by the PBX. It sent an "ENQ" before each command, we had to send an ACK back, and then it sent us STX/ETX-delimited records.

I'm 32 and working today, in 2017. I hope I make stuff that lasts this long.

EvanAnderson 3 days ago 0 replies      
If you want to geek-out further on ASCII have a look at Bob Bemer's site: https://www.bobbemer.com/ Bob is colloquially known as the "father of ASCII" (among other things) and his writing is fun to read and interesting.
rwallace 3 days ago 1 reply      
Good article, brought back memories! A small correction:

> 56 kilobits per second just before the technology was effectively wiped out by wide-area Internet around the end of the 1990s, which brought in speeds of a megabit per second and more (200 times faster)

That should read 20 times faster?

markbnj 3 days ago 0 replies      
I wrote code on a teletype connected to an HP3000 in the mid-70's, so its always a kick to see that technology mentioned here. Especially when it's described as "really old" which obviously it, and I, are :).
bfrog 3 days ago 0 replies      
RS-232 is alive and well in the micro controller space, thank you very much.
earthly10x 3 days ago 1 reply      
Pretty soon we'll have to start telling them what a command line interface is, commonly known today as a foreign and abstract concept defined by an acronym, "CLI".
alexeiz 3 days ago 0 replies      
The FIX protocol uses the SOH control character to separate message fields.
gunnarde 3 days ago 0 replies      
copy con com2atzatdtath0
HeyLaughingBoy 3 days ago 0 replies      
nvr219 3 days ago 1 reply      
Linux Performance brendangregg.com
533 points by pablode  3 days ago   63 comments top 9
cimi_ 3 days ago 1 reply      
I recommend Brendan's book on Systems Performance[1], describes a structured approach to solving performance problems and is a good reference for various types of resource performance profiles.

[1] http://www.brendangregg.com/sysperfbook.html

RodrigoT 3 days ago 3 replies      
A couple months ago I was looking for some courses that could cover the new tools available on linux to measure performance: in kernel and user space. My main frustration is that there was no sign of any structured course that instruct on all these tools, and as importantly, when to and not to use each of them.Before you tell me again: no, youtube videos and blog posts are not good enough: I need to be able to sing up multiple members of different teams and be sure we all receive a homogeneous knowledge.Can Anyone share any pointers about where I could find this kind of training?
smcl 3 days ago 0 replies      
That "Linux Performance Observability Tools" diagram detailing the utils to inspect every part of the stack is excellent!
whatupmd 3 days ago 1 reply      
This site is a great resource and I hope Brendan keeps posting amazing content.
digi_owl 3 days ago 5 replies      
503, seems we torched the place...
arca_vorago 3 days ago 1 reply      
This is awesome, I haven't seen all the perf tools so clearly laid out in usecase ever.
shakencrew 3 days ago 0 replies      
Previous discussion on Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8205057
billsmithaustin 3 days ago 0 replies      
His site is a great information source. I used some of his work to diagnose a JVM performance problem (discussed in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12505517).
Using Immutable Caching to Speed Up the Web mozilla.org
396 points by discreditable  4 days ago   159 comments top 23
achairapart 4 days ago 9 replies      
Maybe it's time for browsers to go beyond the cache concept and implement a common standard package manager. Download once, stay forever. True immutable.

As developers, we try everyday to squeeze till the last byte and optimize things. We all know how performance is important.

So why download for every website the same asset: React, jQuery, libraries, CSS utils, you-name-it? What a waste!

btilly 4 days ago 3 replies      
What I really want is the exact opposite. I'd like to see a flush-before header to have a particular web page NOT pull older static resources.

The reason is simple. Websites have lots of static content that seldom changes. But you don't know in advance when it is going to change. However after the fact you know that it did. So you either set long expiry times and deal with weird behavior and obscure bugs after a website update, or set short ones and generate extra load and slowness for yourself.

Instead I'd like to have the main request send information that it does not want static resources older than a certain age. That header can be set on the server to the last time you did a code release, and a wide variety of problems involving new code and stale JS, CSS, etc go away.

zokier 4 days ago 5 replies      
I'd be very wary of using any HTTP headers with permanent effects. They seem like a way to get easily burned by accident. For immutable caching in particular, I'd probably try to utilize some variation of content-based addressing, eg having the url have the hash of the content.

See also: http://jacquesmattheij.com/301-redirects-a-dangerous-one-way... and the related HN thread with good discussion

georgeaf99 4 days ago 1 reply      
The concept of immutable assets and links is at the core of IPFS, a distributed alternative to HTTP. Since Firefox inplements the concept of immutable assets now, it would be totally reasonable to load these assets in the browser peer to peer (see WebRTC and webtorrent). I think this would be a great way to retrofit some decentralization into webpages!
whack 4 days ago 1 reply      
Sorry if this is a dumb question. How is immutable caching any different from cache-control headers with a max age of 100 years?
grizzles 4 days ago 2 replies      
As an engineer, I've always resented the unnecessary time I spend waiting for data in web browsers, so the bad state of caching in web browsers is an issue that's been on my mind for a long time.

There are a few ways to improve things:

1. Predictive modelling user resource demand in the browser (eg. preloading data) Very very easy to do nowadays with great accuracy.

2. Better cache control / eviction algorithms to keep the cache ultra hot.

3. (This). Immutable caching is one of the major ways we could improve things. I'm not a fan of the parent articles' way of doing it though, because if widely implemented it will break the web in subtle ways, especially for small companies and people that don't have Facebooks resources and engineering talent. It doesn't take into account usability issues and therefore leaves too much room for user error.

I've written up a very simple 11 line spec here that addresses this issue. https://gist.github.com/ericbets/5c1569856c2ad050771ec0c866f...

I'll throw out a challenge to HN. If someone here knows chromium internals well enough to expose the cache and assetloader to electron, within a few months I'll release an open source ML powered browser that speeds up their web browsing experience by something between 10X-100X. Because I feel like this should have been part of the web 10 years ago.

nicolaslem 4 days ago 6 replies      
What is the difference between an immutable resource and setting the resource to expire in 10 years?

Many websites already do that, they change the URL each time the content changes.

roddux 4 days ago 0 replies      
This is related to the Chrome caching update; as discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13492483

Two wholly different strategies, which has ultimately split how the browsers handle caching.

mixedbit 4 days ago 2 replies      
I just realized that until http is completely replaced with https, private mode should be always used to browse the Internet on a not trusted wifi network. Otherwise malicious content injected on such a network can be cached and reused by the browser forever.
jjoe 4 days ago 2 replies      
With WiFi hotspots dropping connections more often than not, how many people would know they need to CTRL-F5 to "fix" a broken page/image/JS/CSS?

I just hope the draft as-is expires and never makes it to an RFC.

romaniv 4 days ago 2 replies      
HTTP caching is a mess. I wonder why no one proposed a properly redesigned and negotiable protocol that covers all the edge cases. (And maybe supports partial caching/partial re-validation of pages.)
Udo 3 days ago 1 reply      
What happens if the immutable file is borked in transfer, leading to a partial file sitting in cache? Will this lead to a new class of problem that can only be solved by nuking the entire browser cache? It seems to me the way to do this right would have included a checksum of the content.
mnarayan01 4 days ago 2 replies      
I wonder if this will bring back the "hard refresh".
niftich 4 days ago 0 replies      
What a mess, but perhaps a happy ending. I made two other comments prior to this one in this thread, but then I read the Bugzilla thread [1] opened by Facebook that laid out the issue and Mozilla's defense. It's a highly enlightening read; I can't recommend it enough.

To summarize, the issue is that Facebook was seeing a higher rate of cache validation requests than they'd expect, and looked into it. Chrome produced an updated chart documenting different refresh behaviors [2], which is the spiritual successor of this now-outdated stackoverflow answer from 2010 [3], and in response to Facebook's requests, and have re-evaluated some of their refresh logic.

In this thread, Firefox was being asked to do the same, but they pushed back on adding yet another heuristic and in turn proposed a cache-control extension. Meanwhile, Facebook proposed the same thing on the IETF httpbis list, where the response not enthusiastic [4], largely feeling that that this is metadata about the content and not a prescriptive cache behavior, and that the HTTP spec already accounted for freshness with age. One of Mark Nottingham's responses [5]:

(...) From time to time, we've had people ask for "Cache-Control: Infinity-I-really-will-never-change-this." I suspect that often they don't understand how caches work, and that assigning a one-year lifetime is more than adequate for this purpose, but nevertheless, we could define that so that it worked and gave you the semantics you want too.

To keep it backwards compatible, you'd need something like:

Cache-Control: max-age=31536000, static

(or whatever we call it)

[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1267474[2] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vwx8WiUASKyC2I-j2smNhaJa...[3] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/385367/what-requests-do-b...[4] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpbisa/current/msg25...[5] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/httpbisa/current/msg25...

anon1253 3 days ago 0 replies      
We should really try to integrate something like https://ipfs.io/ in browsers
hpagey 3 days ago 0 replies      
From what I understand, the browsers don't really adhere to far-future expiry headers when the user manually reloads a page, instead they re-request every resource to see if it's really not expired. For resources that the server flags as immutable (upon first request), the browser won't make further requests, but instead instantly reloads the elements out of its local cache.
Animats 4 days ago 0 replies      
This should be done using subresource integrity. Then, you know it hasn't changed. There should be some convention for encoding the hash into the URL, so that any later change to an "immutable" resource will be detected.

With subresource integrity hashes, you don't have to encrypt public content. Less time wasted in TLS handshakes.

nachtigall 4 days ago 0 replies      
The last image about Squid proxy is included too small in the post, here it is in a readable way: https://hacks.mozilla.org/files/2016/12/sq.png
EdSharkey 3 days ago 0 replies      
A very creditable action, cheers to Mozilla!

This increases the democratization of the web and allows small fries to have a disproportionately larger footprint.

z3t4 3 days ago 0 replies      
How do you update the URL and everywhere its used once an asset (image or script) is changed ? Automatic script or manually ?
spectrum1234 3 days ago 0 replies      
Wow I'm out of touch with front end dev. Someone please explain to me why this hasn't been standard already.
stockkid 4 days ago 0 replies      
> The pages javascript, fonts, and stylesheets do not change between reloads

So is this like Rails' Turbolink but built into the browser?

kingkool68 4 days ago 1 reply      
What's the difference between Cache-Control: Immutable and setting expires headers really far in to the future?
Carbon monoxide poisoning from 3D laser printer may have killed Berkeley couple cbslocal.com
423 points by mbgaxyz  2 days ago   207 comments top 32
allenrabinovich 2 days ago 8 replies      
Hi folks. Val and Roger were dear friends, and I am on the ground here, and I'd like to respectfully ask that you refrain from speculation. The press is rushing to print sensational items, and they don't know the actual facts.

I've been talking to the police directly, and nothing is conclusive yet. Nothing has actually been ruled out, nor determined to be the cause. They don't even have full toxicology reports yet, those take days and sometimes weeks.

On a personal note, I can tell you that there were two devices in the house, a small 3D printer, and a small laser cutter, that were used for building models and rigs for scientific research. Val was an immaculate engineer, and conformed to all safety rules in operating these machines. To the best of our knowledge, neither of the machines were operating the night they passed away.

Again, please refrain from fear-mongering and speculation. I know it's natural for engineers to attack unsolved problems, but you are not working with correct or full data. Once more data is available, we will write up a complete and truthful statement to try and provide closure on this issue.

stcredzero 2 days ago 12 replies      
CO poisoning is cumulative. It takes a long time for CO to get unstuck from hemoglobin. (About 2 weeks, IIRC.) It could have snuck up on them slowly, then one evening with the cats "napping" they felt particularly tired and thought to themselves, "We must be in hibernation mode from the chilly weather," then they went to sleep then never woke up.

CO is odorless. You might get a headache, or you might only feel tired. What's worse: a lot of cheap CO detectors are pretty shoddy.

Animats 2 days ago 5 replies      
"3D laser printer" probably means a Glowforge. Nobody else calls them that. Their documentation says "Lasers normally require some ventilation via a small tube out a nearby window. Our optional Air Filter that sits under Glowforge and ventilates using HEPA filters and charcoal, meaning no outside ventilation is required." That won't do much if you cut something that emits carbon monoxide when heated. That includes some common plastics, styrene being one.

There are lots of things you don't want to cut on a laser cutter unless you're cutting under an inert gas, or at least nitrogen. Polycarbonate, any of the chlorinated plastics (PVC, some synthetic leather), styrenes, and polyethylene, for example. ABS melts, and Fiberglas's glass component won't cut. Acrylics cut very well. Delrin cuts OK. Wood and cloth are OK. Techshop is careful to teach people about this.

TechShop's laser cutters have compressed air coming in, a big exhaust hose going out, and a fire extinguisher nearby. TechShop has an ad slogan, "Don't try this at home. Do it at TechShop". There's something to be said for that when you're using industrial-strength tools.

In addition to the two people, their two cats died. Operating these things in a closed room is a really bad idea.

TheRoccoB 2 days ago 0 replies      
This is so tragic. I used to work with Roger and he's about as gifted of an engineer as I've ever met. He was so nice and helpful too, even though he was miles beyond me in terms of skill.

He was so into his indy game, Shard, and even whipped out his laptop to show me and started explaining intricacies of the renderer when I met him at an industry event years later.

I didn't know his wife, but from the things I've read she was also a pioneer in her industry. Rest in Peace.

npunt 2 days ago 0 replies      
I've always been wary of 3d printers and laser cutters because of indoor air pollution & VOCs. Though I didn't realize the amount they put out and the cumulative effects of CO as mentioned in the comments here.

My sense is that laser cutters should be required to come with CO detectors, and more generally we should be looking to add the appropriate chemical detectors to 3d printers and laser printers to warn of other chemical output issues. These home machines are often advertised for use in confined spaces (size is one way manufacturers compete), which is why I think it should be regulated - its not like someone took a commercial machine home with them. Laser cutters are a fairly large capital expense and bolting on a CO detector is very inexpensive (probably <1%), and it could integrate with the cutter's electronics to prevent usage if it exceeds a certain level.

Safety regulations are usually written in blood. Having two deaths with such a small # of these machines out there suggests there are probably others who have cumulative CO effects already. Very sad, my heart goes out to the friends and family of Roger & Valerie.

abalone 2 days ago 1 reply      
Tragic. Recently California started requiring carbon monoxide detectors in most homes.[1] Make sure you have one.

That's a surprising cause though. How much CO can a laser printer/cutter produce, worst case?

[1] http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/Planning_and_Development/Housin...

saycheese 2 days ago 0 replies      
Roger and Vals friends are trying to raise money to offset the familys costs for traveling to the funeral and making funeral arrangements. Contributions can be made online:


mbgaxyz 2 days ago 2 replies      

"According to a study completed by a team at the Illinois Institute of Technology, typical desktop 3D printers emit particles and compounds during printing that federal agencies say could cause cancer or other ailments."


pmoriarty 2 days ago 3 replies      
Makers are often exposed to many toxic compounds, from toxins in salvaged electronics to PCB etching compounds to lead solder and solder fumes. Unfortunately, they rarely have much if any safety training or awareness of the dangers they are exposing themselves to.
tbenst 2 days ago 3 replies      
Unclear what a "laser 3D printer" means--possibly selective laser sintering, but that doesn't produce carbon monoxide to my knowledge. Possibly a homegrown machine. Tragic reminder of the importance of proper workspaces.
meesterdude 2 days ago 0 replies      
PSA: Make sure you have carbon monoxide detectors in your home, and that you replace them every 5-7 years, as the detector goes bad over time. If you are in a home with a high chance of carbon monoxide buildup, get one with a digital display to help first responders understand your exposure level. if you have children, get one that talks.
rdl 2 days ago 0 replies      
This is horrible.

Anyone with combustion sources of any kinds (gas heat, cooking, cars in a garage, many kinds of tools) should have a CO sensor properly placed. I'm staying at someone's house for a month, don't see one, so I just ordered a couple.

ajeet_dhaliwal 2 days ago 0 replies      
I installed two carbon monoxide detectors at my mother's house over the holidays and really we all should, it's not a big cost. This is very sad for their friends and family but most of all for the poor couple. I think it's selfish but rather human to say that when something like this happens to 'people like us', in this case referring to background, interests, and hobbies it can feel extra shocking and upsetting.
rasengan0 1 day ago 0 replies      
We've had so many fire false alarms but finally a real one happened. It was raining hard and maintenance closed the top vent to deter water intake. The unit is a 4 story multi-unit dwelling and luckily someone had a cheap $49 dollar CO detector. The fire came sans alarm and everyone had to evacuate. We were thinking ah man not this again. Someone had some burnt cooking that day. We could only return to our homes until all clear CO detection from the inspectors. My family opted in for the pulse oximetry that the nice fire folk were providing. Needless to say many, including myself, bought CO detectors that week.
a_g 1 day ago 0 replies      
towngas or coalgas that is piped in for cooking is hydrogen and carbon monoxide, has all the other possible sources of carbon monoxide been ruled out before nailing it on the laser cutter or 3d printer?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_gas

i'd prefer it that the 'authorities' do a thorough and scientific investigation and release the results in public on the internet, this needs to be proven beyond all doubts that it is caused by the laser cutter or 3d printer

if this is not done, it would stir worldwide unnecessary panic about laser cutters and/or 3d printers by saying that laser cutters and/or 3d printers produces carbon monoxide and is dangerous and hence cannot be used

i'm not sure about laser cutters but normally 3d printers is more a fire hazard than do anything else, i.e. 3d printers main hazard is fire, but carbon monoxide is likely 'fake and invalid/assumptions/speculations'

jayajay 2 days ago 0 replies      
Everyone should read this, and forward to their loved ones. This is very close to home (not literally) because it could happen to anyone, and is something that many people do not consider. Have up-to-date CO detectors, do not operate large appliances without considering their byproducts. Literally, the environment matters more than anything, and this acts as a grave reminder of this. Take care of the environment, especially the tiny one in your home, as it could save your life.
Naritai 1 day ago 0 replies      
That's tough. Operating any sort of industrial equipment gets dangerous very fast; I know a plaintiff attorney who handles cases like this (injury due to improper exhaust), and the fact that it's actually an area of practice tells you something.
arkhorn 1 day ago 0 replies      
Hi, i've a co2 laser cutting (40w) idle all the time (i do not use it anymore) since around one year in the room close to my bedroom. even when idle its dangerous ? i really don't know what to do, what do you suggest me guys. thanks in advance
iscrewyou 2 days ago 5 replies      
I lit a candle last night with a closed window and door. Then it hit me that there is no way there is no CO in this room. Immediately opened my window. After hearing this story, I am never sleeping with my window closed.
pfarnsworth 2 days ago 1 reply      
Very, very sad. Who knew that it created CO, but I have paranoia about stuff like that so I would only have it in the garage. Maybe that wouldn't be enough depending on how much CO it produced.
xjay 2 days ago 0 replies      
Might as well raise awareness of Radon, and laser printers.

It's a tragedy, and reminded me of Marie Curie (who eventually discovered her research was causing damaging levels of radiation exposure).

zapu 2 days ago 0 replies      
Damn, I need to invest in some CO sensor. Very sad to read.
tropo 2 days ago 2 replies      
Having tried one, I wouldn't trust a detector. That was money not well spent. I could generate lots of CO, and nothing would register. Maybe flawed units are super-rare, but I'm more than tempted to assume the industry is a fraud.

Why even bother? The device has one job, and it fails. All you get is a false sense of safety.

toomim 2 days ago 0 replies      
Roger was an inspiration to me. Now he's dead.
iaw 2 days ago 0 replies      
This is as tragic as it gets, I suspect liability will fall onto whoever made their "laser 3D printer" if the ventilation warnings weren't good enough.
tim4dev 11 hours ago 0 replies      
do you have any news?
douche 1 day ago 0 replies      
How in the hell can a 3d printer produce enough CO to kill people? A shitty woodstove I could believe, or the classic run the car in the garage technique
allenrabinovich 2 days ago 0 replies      
Hi folks. Val and Roger were dear friends, and I am on the ground here, and I'd like to respectfully ask that you refrain from speculation. The press is rushing to print sensational items, and they don't know the actual facts.

I've been talking to the police directly, and nothing is conclusive yet. They don't even have full toxicology reports.

On a personal note, I can tell you that there were two devices in the house, a small 3D printer, and a small laser cutter, that were used for building models and rigs for scientific research. Val was an immaculate engineer, and conformed to all safety rules in operating these machines. To the best of our knowledge, neither of the machines were operating the night they passed away.

Again, please refrain from fear-mongering and speculation. I know it's natural for engineers to attack unsolved problems, but you are not working with correct or full data. Once more data is available, we will write up a complete and truthful statement to try and provide closure on this issue.

jamiesonbecker 2 days ago 3 replies      
Article and headline are incorrect: "Carbon monoxide poisoning has also been ruled out."[1][2][3]

Both MIT grads; one a founder of gaming company Glug Glug[2] and co-author of game Shard[4]

1. http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/01/25/berkeley-toxicology-t...

2. http://kotaku.com/game-developers-mourn-sudden-passing-of-ex...

3. http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Two-people-found-dead-Be...

4. http://shard-game.com/

robinhouston 2 days ago 3 replies      
Off topic, but Ive never seen the care-of symbol () used in place of percent (%) before. Im really curious how that could happen. On my keyboard I can type % as shift-5, but theres no way to type without selecting it from a list of characters.
rosser 2 days ago 2 replies      
2 days ago 2 days ago 1 reply      
Comparing Elixir and Go codeship.com
487 points by iamd3vil  3 days ago   188 comments top 25
julienmarie 3 days ago 4 replies      
If you want to really understand the philosophy that makes Erlang ( and Elixir ) beautiful ( and why it made me a better programmer ), this conference by Greg Young is a kind of eye opener : https://vimeo.com/108441214 .

You realize then that clustering, hot reload, availability etc... are not only features but the logical consequence of a beautifully crafted environnement that aims at developer productivity.

I'm sometimes amazed on how easy I can achieve stuff on the Erlang VM that would take ( if it's not impossible at all ) at least 10 times the time in a more usual language ( Ruby or PHP when you work in the web industry as I do ).

My last example was when I needed to batch sql inserts in an events database. In a normal language I would have needed a queue, the libraries for it, workers, new deployments and infrastructure to monitor, monitoring, supervision, etc... In Elixir, in 20 lines of code, it's done.

If you do not need complex calculations, the Erlang VM can basically become most of your architecture. It's already per se a SOA.

haspok 3 days ago 1 reply      
One thing that is completely missing from the Erlang side of the article are the OOB monitoring and operating capabilities.

An Erlang VM is a living system that has a shell which you can connect to, and control both the VM and the applications running in it. You can also remotely connect to another VM, execute arbitrary code, debug, stop processes, start processes etc. It really is an operating system in itself, that was _designed_ to be that way.

And the best part is that you get all this for free. Whether that is a good thing depends entirely on your needs. You probably wouldn't want to replace your bash scripts with Erlang programs :)

What Erlang is not really suited for is where you need multiple levels of abstraction, such as when implementing complex business logic. You would think that the functional nature of the language lends itself to that, but then you quickly realize that because the primary concern of an Erlang engineer is to keep the system alive, and for that reason you must be able to reason and follow the code as it is running on the system, all kinds of abstractions are very much discouraged and considered bad practice (look up "parameterized modules" for an example of a feature that was _almost_ added to the language but was discarded in the end).

I think that from this perspective Erlang and Go are actually very similar - both prefer simplicity over abstractions.

giovannibajo1 3 days ago 2 replies      
I think the part about cooperative/preemptive multitasking isn't saying it all.

Go multitasking is based on the compiler inserting switchpoints on function calls and syscall boundaries. But this affects the scheduling of a single OS-level threads executing that specific goroutine. The number of OS-level threads that the Go scheduler uses can arbitrarily grow, and OS-level threads are preemptively multitasked.

So I think the description is focusing a narrow view of the problem. What is usually required by applications is low latency in reply to system events (e.g.: data available on network sockets), and Go performs very well in this context. For instance, the fact that Go is transparently using a epoll/kqueue based architecture under the hood is probably affecting latency much more than the whole "cooperative" issue as depicted.

IanCal 3 days ago 4 replies      
This is more for people looking at erlang/elixir than a critique of the blogpost or a suggestion for a change.

> Within Elixir, there is no operator overloading, which can seem confusing at first if you want to use a + to concatenate two strings. In Elixir you would use <> instead.

When this popped up, it reminded me of something people try to do often and then have issues with performance. You probably do not want to concatenate strings.

"Yes I do" you'll first think, but actually erlang has a neat commonly used thing to help here.

Let's say you're doing some templating on a web-page. You want to return "Welcome back username!". First pass (a while since I wrote erlang so forgive syntax errors):

 welcome(Username) -> "Welcome back " ++ Username ++ "!"
Now it's going to have to construct each string, then create a new string with all three. More creation & copying means things get slower.

Instead, many of the functions you'd use to write files or return things over a connection will let you pass in a list of strings instead.

 welcome(Username) -> ["Welcome back ", Username, "!"]
Now it's not copying things, which is good. But then we want to put the welcome message into another block with their unread messages.

 full_greeting(Username) -> welcome(Username) ++ unread_messages()
More appending than is good here, concatenating lists is going to take time. Of course, we could put it all in one function, but then we lose re-usability in the templates and have horrible massive functions. While this is a simple example, I hope you can picture a larger case where you'd want to split up the various sections.

Anyway, there's a better way of doing this. The functions that take lists of strings actually take lists of strings or other lists. So we can just do this:

 full_greeting(Username) -> [welcome(Username), unread_messages()]
You can keep going, nesting this as much as you want. This saves a lot of copying, allows you to split things up and avoids having to keep flattening a structure.

So, for people about to get started, try not to concatenate your strings, you can probably save yourself and your computer some time.

For more info on this, you want to search for "IO Lists" or "Deep IO Lists".

brightball 3 days ago 6 replies      
Author here. This was published a week earlier than expected so just a heads up that there are a couple of edits coming.
pmarreck 3 days ago 1 reply      
Go's philosophy around error handling (or lack thereof) is arguably atrocious compared to BEAM's "Let It Crash (And I'll Just Log It And Restart In 1 Millisecond With Exponential Backoff)" philosophy.

To review: https://gobyexample.com/errors

Manually checking every possible error (and then, only in the spots where you can imagine an error occurring) is a heck of a lot of extra work for the programmer (and code for the code reader/reviewer) and still won't catch all possible errors (both conceivable and inconceivable) properly. And arguably, the fact that an unchecked/undetected runtime bug in Go will basically send it into an "indeterminate state" which is impossible to reason about (much less debug), is an incredibly strong argument against this philosophy, IMHO. As far as I'm concerned, as soon as my code goes "off the beaten path" state-wise (read this as: "significantly differing from my mental model"), it should crash, ASAP. Isn't every bug literally a situation the programmer didn't account for? Aren't runtime errors by nature unexpected by the programmer? Why would you then give bugs and errors even more room to corrupt the state of the world, then? ;)

We are all obsessed with computers and languages when the real limit is the programmer's mind and ability to reason about the code s/he's building and the states that code can get into. I think BEAM langs and purely functional langs more generally (along with functional/immutable data structures, etc.) do a much better job of addressing this root problem. I'm going to quote John Carmack from his great blog post about functional programming here (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/169296/Indepth_Functional...):

"My pragmatic summary: A large fraction of the flaws in software development are due to programmers not fully understanding all the possible states their code may execute in. In a multithreaded environment, the lack of understanding and the resulting problems are greatly amplified, almost to the point of panic if you are paying attention. Programming in a functional style makes the state presented to your code explicit, which makes it much easier to reason about, and, in a completely pure system, makes thread race conditions impossible."

d3ckard 3 days ago 0 replies      
That comparison was way better than I was expecting it to be. Go is still on my to-do list, but Elixir parts seem to be quite thoroughly described and without major mistakes. I also like the conclusion and to be honest this is how I always felt about the two. Definetly recommend reading this is if you're new to any of the two.
jondubois 3 days ago 10 replies      
I still don't understand what all the hype is about pure functional programming.

Sometimes mutations are useful. There are lot of good programming design patterns which depend on mutations.

Also, always copying objects by value every time you call a function seems very expensive; especially if you're dealing with very large objects/structs/maps/strings which have to be processed by many functions.

EduardoBautista 3 days ago 2 replies      
> It has since expanded into numerous other areas, such as web servers, and has achieved nine 9s of availability (31 milliseconds/year of downtime).

I definitely want to read more about this.

sahrizv 3 days ago 0 replies      
I think a good way to increase creativity and productivity is to use the right abstractions of thought and craft. Every good(non leaky) abstraction expands the creative envelope further and lends itself to creation of new higher order abstractions for the next generation.

Having coded in imperative languages like Java, Python and C++, I had been on the lookout for a practical general purpose language which provides good abstractions/high expressiveness.Elixir appealed to me more than Go in that regard. It's been six months since I started writing Elixir and it's been a pleasure.

sudhirj 3 days ago 2 replies      
> The biggest difference between the two languages is that compilation for the destination architecture has to be done on that same architecture. The documents include several workarounds for this scenario, but the simplest method is to build your release within a Docker container that has the destination architecture.

@brightball Go has had first class support for cross compilation for a while now, no?

copyconstruct 3 days ago 0 replies      
There was a good talk at Strangeloop about userland thread runtime scheduling in both the Go and the Erlang VM.


nazri1 3 days ago 1 reply      
The page (like many other pages nowadays) breaks page down - if I press the page down key I then have to scroll up a few lines because the text are obscured by the always-visible "FREE SIGNUP" banner at the top.
chx 3 days ago 0 replies      
I am very intrigued in both. I am a reasonably experienced software developer with about 15 hours a week of availability, anyone wants to contract me? I'd gain experience with a modern language, you'd get someone on cheaper than experience would suggest. I know software engineers can use any language but in reality, if I were to get a full time job at a company which uses either of these I'd get a lot less money than I am getting now working with Drupal with 10+ years of experience in it. So I would like to gain some real world experience to make it easier to switch jobs later.
aychedee 3 days ago 0 replies      
Really well written comparison that made me, as someone who has used go for a year, understand a lot more about Elixir.
rbosinger 3 days ago 1 reply      
I know people will say "apples to oranges" but this is still exactly what I wanted to read. Thanks.
julio83 3 days ago 4 replies      

 The other trade-off that comes from mutable versus immutable data comes from clustering. With Go, you have the ability to make remote procedure calls very seamlessly if you want to implement them, but because of pointers and shared memory, if you call a method on another box with an argument that references to something on your machine, it cant be expected to function the same way.
I would be happy to know how we can make RPC seamless in GO accross multiple machines (clustering). I've missed a nice lib?

raulk 3 days ago 0 replies      
Nice writeup! ZeroMQ is not written in Erlang. You probably confused with RabbitMQ, which is.
stcredzero 3 days ago 1 reply      
In Elixir, error handling is considered code smell. Ill take a second to let you read that again.

I think that this makes a lot of sense. My experience in just about any language, is that the official means of error handling already feels like a code smell, even before you start using it. And if that's not the case, then it still manages to feel that way when used in a large project.

Lots of Smalltalk projects would actually handle errors by saving the image on an unhandled exception. For server applications, this was like having a "live" core dump where the debugger could open up right on the errant stack frame, and you could perform experiments to aid in debugging.

arca_vorago 3 days ago 0 replies      
If I were putting together a new awesome Thing(TM), I think I would probably use elixir on the front end and internal messaging to handle and distribute jobs, and let go do the crunching and hard lifting.
innocentoldguy 3 days ago 1 reply      
The article states that Elixir functions must be in a module, during its comparison between Goroutines and one of the few methods of using concurrency in Elixir (there are others beside spawn). This description isn't entirely accurate. Named functions must be inside a module in Elixir, but anonymous functions don't have that requirement.
andyfleming 3 days ago 4 replies      
How does Crystal lang compare to the two?

I know the syntax is more similar to Elixir, but the format seems closer to Go in the sense that it compiles to a binary.

russellbeattie 3 days ago 1 reply      
The BEAM VM and lightweight processes seem amazing - I just wish they could be tied to a language syntax that wasn't so radically different from c/java/javascript and the like. Go code is almost immediately understandable because of this, whereas Erlang is perplexing.
maxpert 3 days ago 3 replies      
I think it's comparing apples with oranges. They are two different species a compiled vs VM based language, one is a functional styled vs other has duck-tapping. Only thing I can see common is GC and a somewhat but very different concurrency programming paradigms, with message passing. Erlang and BEAM is an aged old giant with battle tested proven reliability, while golang is young lad with the flash like abilities everyone has been longing for. While you get awesome stuff like Hot-Reloading, Go lang gives you compiled code that can run heavy loaded servers on my RaspberryPi (I made one and tried all Erlang, NodeJS, and Golang believe me Golang smokes them all on memory footprint http://raspchat.com ). I can go on and on and on! But picking one is totally dependent on your scenario.
spraak 3 days ago 1 reply      
[Deleted] Originally I'd had an off the cuff remark here of "apples to oranges". I'd like retreat to say that the article is actually a good overview and comparison
Airbnb is providing free housing to refugees and anyone not allowed in the US twitter.com
356 points by peapod91  1 day ago   135 comments top 20
paulsutter 1 day ago 2 replies      
AirBNB might want to adjust their offer since the majority of the world population are not allowed in the US. Visas are limited by country and can be an arduous process.


Only visitors from the few countries in blue or green are permitted entry automatically:


I mention this without any advocacy for any position, but because some commenters seem to expect that borders are normally open. Every country has similar restrictions. Many countries don't admit US citizens without a visa.

Edit: Rayiner, I'm in favor of more and easier travel generally, I'm referring to the wording of Brian's tweet.

rhapsodic 1 day ago 2 replies      
All of the virtue signaling and moral feather preening surrounding this issue is something to behold.

It seems we're entering a new era where businesses engage in political activism as well as simple commerce.

If that's the case, it's only fair that other groups, whose politics may differ from the activist-businesses', start using politics to weaken those businesses and counter their influence.

For example, it's well known that Airbnb operates under the radar of housing regulations in many localities.

Perhaps people who disagree with Airbnb's politics should organize and bring about legislation that will eliminate or severely curtail Airbnb's ability to do business in their town, county or state.

Or perhaps the Republicans, though new federal liability laws, should render Airbnb's business model non-viable at the national level.

The left has been engaging in total war against the right for about a decade. They seek to impose social and economic penalties on those who hold political views different than their own. And they've done this, fairly secure in the knowledge that there would be few or no repercussions against them.

But I have a feeling that's starting to change.

lllllll 1 day ago 1 reply      
I'm reading around here that Airbnb's contribution in this matter is limited to providing the infrastructure to volunteer hosts for free, which is still good. My question is: do they also provide insurance to these hosts? I mean if one of the volunteer hosts suffers damages in her/his property of 10'000$ hosting refugees, will airbnb cover it? Genuinely curious, not judging here.
rhapsodic 1 day ago 0 replies      
The tweet should have said, "Airbnb is helping people to provide free housing to refugees and anyone not allowed in the US."
edoceo 1 day ago 6 replies      
Stunt or Stand? So much noise right now it's hard to tell. Hope Time demonstrates this as a genuine move. BigCo with lots of PR weight can really keep the story at the top (or push it over the top)
coldtea 1 day ago 0 replies      
Translation: "AirBnB looks for cheap positive publicity".
Neliquat 1 day ago 1 reply      
No they are not. Please correct the title.
icebraining 1 day ago 1 reply      
So to be clear, Airbnb is helping volunteering hosts to provide their houses for free, right? If so, this tweet is misleading, from its wording I expected Airbnb was compensating the hosts.
wyager 1 day ago 3 replies      
Are they planning to force people on the platform to host refugees (paid, obviously)? I can see several practical problems with that; taking people from their home to a place where they do not speak the language or know the local culture and just dropping them off in standard residential housing can't end well for anybody. This also can't help AirBnB's case when it comes to NIMBYism.
camus2 1 day ago 2 replies      
Airbnb IS NOT providing free housing. Airbnb isn't paying for housing refugees. Potential hosts can offer free housing, which just makes Airbnb like Couchsurfing. So Airbnb isn't paying for anything here or even giving anything for free.

People who really want to help can use CouchSurfing web site instead of promoting a for profit business.

If Airbnb offered free housing it would mean they would actually pay the host to house refugees, they are not.

f137 1 day ago 0 replies      
Nice test.

I wonder how many of the people protesting the entry ban will offer their flats for free to the refugees?

savvyraccoon 1 day ago 0 replies      
Airbnb's investors are happy :)
return0 1 day ago 1 reply      
Unfortunately this will look like a PR move. Why can't ordinary people step in to host the people affected for this short period?
flashman 1 day ago 3 replies      
Airbnb should run a promotion for free nights at hosts who live within a mile of a Trump property. He'd notice if someone was trying to take business off him, even nominally.
Tulip68 1 day ago 3 replies      
Excellent news on an otherwise pretty terrible day.

Brian Chesky and the entire Airbnb team are showing America at its very best: forward-looking, innovative, diverse, multicultural and. The contrast with the Trump-type people -- primarily angry, insular, bitter old people who are terrified of brown people and still live within 10 minutes of their high school -- could not be more striking.

lsmod 1 day ago 2 replies      
akjainaj 1 day ago 0 replies      
If you do this please then release the % of users who've been told "you've been chosen to host a Muslim refugee" and have accepted ;^}

It's easy to pretend you're hospitable and generous when you're not paying the toll of your actions. You're not providing "free housing", the actual owners of the houses are. This is a unilateral announcement because you don't know if hosts will accept.

Dorothy1989 1 day ago 0 replies      
For unemployed people who have lost their homes and live on the streets or for thousands of homeless poor Americans, AirBn(another Soros backed company) was never so sensitive. But for refugees who can afford the 1000+ $ trip to the States, Airbn is so humane. Please, my mind hurts.
ssijak 1 day ago 4 replies      
Why have not you done that before for existing homeless people or other people in need? This just smells like ugly marketing scheme.

I mean, it is good if someone in need is helped, but why now and why that wording and scope to only refugees?

Two Infants Treated with Universal Immune Cells Have Their Cancer Vanish technologyreview.com
318 points by phr4ts  4 days ago   134 comments top 12
jackweirdy 4 days ago 7 replies      
> Although the cases drew wide media attention in Britain, some researchers said that because the London team also gave the children standard chemotherapy, they failed to show the cell treatment actually cured the kids.

Could someone explain what the process for proving it would be in this case? I presume some kind of animal testing?

Seems pretty immoral to give someone a wildcard treatment and not back it up with something known to work. Not disparaging this treatment but given we don't know if it works yet (and how aggressive cancer can be) it seems totally fair to administer it alongside chemo.

blisterpeanuts 4 days ago 1 reply      
Happy babies! As a point of interest, this type of engineered T-cell treatment has its roots in research at the Weizmann Institute in Tel Aviv. They demonstrated the use of CARs modified T-cells in curing leukemic disease in rats and mice several years ago.

Their research was expanded to human trials at Univ. of Penn. where 27 of 29 patients with incurable leukemia and most of whom had a prognosis of death within a few months went into remission and showed no sign of the disease.

This modality may work with other forms of cancer; engineered T-cells that can enter every capillary in the body could potentially wipe out entire colonies of cancer cells. The potential is enormous, as are the challenges; cancers can be very difficult to differentiate from healthy tissue.


mediocrejoker 4 days ago 4 replies      
> We estimate the cost to manufacture a dose would be about $4,000, she says. Thats compared to a cost of around $50,000 to alter a patients cells and return them.

> Either type of treatment is likely to cost insurers half a million dollars or more if they reach the market.

Can someone more familiar with the pharmaceutical industry explain this?

eliben 4 days ago 4 replies      
Does anyone here know which companies are looking for software engineers to help with this kind of stuff?
rdlecler1 4 days ago 1 reply      
>And I guarantee you even if things were equal, which they are not, you would want your own stuff, not someone elses cells.

This sounds like wishful thinking from VC who just put a lot of money into the Bespoke solution. The idea of immunotherapy is that your injecting cells that can attack the cancer. What does it matter it it's your own cells especially when the cost is an order of magnitude bigger.

gt565k 4 days ago 4 replies      
'Although the cases drew wide media attention in Britain, some researchers said that because the London team also gave the children standard chemotherapy, they failed to show the cell treatment actually cured the kids. There is a hint of efficacy but no proof, says Stephan Grupp, director of cancer immunotherapy at the Childrens Hospital of Philadelphia, who collaborates with Novartis. It would be great if it works, but that just hasnt been shown yet.'

So the title is basically click-bait, as the treatment is unconfirmed.

geekuillaume 3 days ago 1 reply      
There is some scrutiny.

Abstract: The London team also gave the children standard chemotherapy, they failed to show the cell treatment actually cured the kids. There is a hint of efficacy but no proof, says Stephan Grupp, director of cancer immunotherapy at the Childrens Hospital of Philadelphia, who collaborates with Novartis. It would be great if it works, but that just hasnt been shown yet.

CodeSheikh 4 days ago 1 reply      
"Rights to the London treatment were sold to the biotech company Cellectis, and the treatment is now being further developed by the drug companies Servier and Pfizer."

And that's when it will get sunk into an abyss of bureaucratic processes and this treatment probably won't see sunlight for another ten years.

guard-of-terra 4 days ago 1 reply      
It's hard to cure cancer definitely because cancer cells will always be trying to out-evolve any treatment. Anything that quickly kills 99% of cells, unfortunately, lets them select for survival traits really fast.
roombarampage 4 days ago 0 replies      
Children saved from deadly illness by using T-cells(virus?)... I think we all know where this is going...
ryeguy_24 4 days ago 6 replies      
"The ready-made approach could pose a challenge to companies including Juno Therapeutics and Novartis, each of which has spent tens of millions of dollars pioneering treatments that require collecting a patients own blood cells, engineering them, and then re-infusing them."

Is author serious with this statement? Two kids lives were saved with a potentially inexpensive technique and the author think's this point is relevant? If 500 companies go bankrupt because cancer is cured, that is a monstrous win.

FT_intern 4 days ago 0 replies      
Isn't this how 'I Am Legend' started?
Standing up for what's right facebook.com
400 points by smaili  2 days ago   312 comments top 40
djsumdog 2 days ago 15 replies      
This is really shitty. Regardless of what you think of the immigration issue, blocking legal residents from entering the US is absolutely terrible. It's a contract violation from the US government. This order essentially says America doesn't care you're a full legal resident, because you hold a citizenship from this limited subset of countries (many of which we're bombing), you can't come back.

(America is bombing seven countries by the way, in case anyone forgot. Our last president is the first in history to have the US in armed conflict for every day of his presidency. He will not be the last.)

What I also hate is that Uber tries to play the PR game and show themselves as the great guys here. Forget that they pay their drivers peanuts, that drivers have to drive up to 30% more now to make the same wages as just a few years ago, and that many are calling Uber to unionise.

I hate they way everyone is just using people to further their message and forgetting that these are people.

tabeth 2 days ago 5 replies      
Firstly, I'd like to point out that Travis' post was spot on (I abhor Trump's policies, so the more big names speaking out against him, the better).

However, is Travis really the best messenger? Is this just glorified PR or does he actually care? I can't read his mind, so we can only judge from his actions. Let's see what he's done to "stand up for what's right" in regards to his own organization (this isn't exhaustive, at all):

- Uber employees order fake rides to sink competitor [1]

- Blaming the media for suggesting Uber is liable [2]

- Blind passengers denied rides [3]

- Uber executives looking into critics' personal lives [4]


You may think those things are irrelevant, but one should practice what they preach, especially when they have a post titled: "Standing up for what's right." My examples, by the way, only scratch the surface to Uber's own shady practices.

[1] http://valleywag.gawker.com/ubers-dirty-trick-campaign-again...

[2] https://pando.com/2014/02/27/we-call-that-boob-er-the-four-m...

[3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/09/1...

[4] http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/uber-executive-suggests-dig...

employee8000 2 days ago 10 replies      
As an Uber employee, I'm morbidly curious as to how HN will spin this into something negative. :)

For the record, I'm super proud of working at Uber because those on the outside never see the things we do for our drivers. This is a big one and I'm really proud. You just don't see this on the news that often because who knows.

I've said this before but the Uber of the last 2 years is not the same Uber from 2013/2014. As a company it has grown up and matured and realizes the responsibilities it has to its drivers, riders and cities.

marcell 2 days ago 1 reply      
This may come off as cynical but I think Travis, and similar SV figures like Elon Musk and Sam Altman are giving Donald Trump too much credit.

He is a 70 year old man who just won the presidency with no prior political experience, spewing angry divisive comments against all sorts of weak minority groups. He has a massive following who cheers his divisive comments against foreigners and and against the press.

Yet in spite of this, some commentators (see Travis) think that "if only" he gets some good advice, everything will be just fine. This is a bias of smart, reasonable people: they assume others are the same. They are treating it as a reasonable person who is just misguided.

In fact, the opposite is true. Trump has shown that his values are not aligned with traditional free democracy as we've known it in America. Giving him some good advice or trying to talk reason is futile, and moreover will result in endorsement by association.

Fr0styMatt88 2 days ago 6 replies      
How is Trump seemingly doing so much, so quickly?

Looking in from the outside, it seems like all the political process that Obama had to go through just isn't applicable?

The example I always comforted myself with w.r.t to Trump was Obama trying to get the gun laws changed - even the POTUS couldn't do it. So then he mustn't have unlimited power. So what's going on here?

I'm really curious how executive orders work in the US. Are they just the first step in a process, or do they override any democratic process? The latter seems to be what all the reporting is implying, but I don't know if that's hyperbole or true.

endswapper 2 days ago 0 replies      
Clear message, clear call to action, clear action with the ability to leverage what he is advocating while acknowledging and respecting opposing perspectives.

This had substance and was clear and articulate. It's exactly what Sam's Time to Take a Stand post is missing.

mnglkhn2 2 days ago 3 replies      
There multiple ways somebody can get a green card. I suspect that the majority of those w. green cards and citizenship from the seven countries that were banned have obtained these green cards by way of refugee status.

I have nothing against helping refugees escape atrocities in their home countries. If possible, good for them. The problem I see is that there is an inherent unfairness in this process when compared to those who try to immigrate legally, especially when using the H1B process.

A refugees obtains a green card in a matter of months if not 1 year at most. With no particularly serious/harsh vetting. Look at what this has brought, considering that all the past attacks (Boston, California, Florida) where done by people that entered US by this rout.

An H1B has to usually wait if somewhere between 8-16years, sometimes more just to get the green card. And for every step, they are scrutinized and verified in the most intimate detail.

In my opinion this is not a fair process. And, personally, I am ok with increasing the scrutiny on those that apply for refugee status.

auternach 2 days ago 2 replies      
Anyone wondering what the "pro" argument possibly could be: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/444370/donald-trump-re....

If you actually want to leave your bubble, read both sides on every issue. If you want to remain in your bubble, read the screaming twitter comments and media only. Choice is yours.

Even the "pro" arguers have serious reservations in this case.

hackuser 2 days ago 0 replies      
It's nice, but there is no statement about discrimination based on religion or nationality, or xenophobia in general. His objections seem to result from poor execution: If the ban were better executed so his drivers weren't as affected, would he have any objections?


I agreed in early December to join President Trumps economic advisory group along with Elon Musk (CEO of Tesla), Mary Barra (Chairwoman/CEO of General Motors), Indra Nooyi (Chairwoman/CEO of Pepsi), Ginni Rometty (Chairwoman/CEO of IBM), Bob Iger (Chairman/CEO of Disney), Jack Welch (former Chairman of GE) and a dozen other business leaders.

Kalanick and all those people lend their credibility to Trump and his policies.

gogopuppygogo 2 days ago 2 replies      
Glad to see the tech industry leaders taking a stand on these immigration issues. Sam Altman and Travis are being very public but I'm sure many are working the system behind the scenes and there will be more public results in the future.

The fight has just begun. It's just a matter of time now till they to tear apart net neutrality.

Trump might just be the wake up call the nation needed to wake up and stop being so complacent.

xacaxulu 2 days ago 2 replies      
Travis likes breaking any law that stands in the way of him making money and breaking into new markets. Now that he disagrees with an Executive order (that really means he's being deprived of a cheap source of labor), he's come out in full PR mode. You can like or dislike Trump, but Kalanick is a hypocrite through and through.
danols 2 days ago 0 replies      
Takes a certain type of arrogance to play the high card with the track record and reputation that he has. He has zero credibility when it comes to standing up for what is right.
redsummer 2 days ago 5 replies      
Why isn't Saudi Arabia on the list?
nemesisj 2 days ago 1 reply      
It's great to see Uber come out so publically against this travesty of a Presidential executive order. It's a despicable act and all Americans should be ashamed of what's happening. That said, it's interesting to see a company that has regularly ignored the law to build their business dive into the fray. They've also employed many of the same tactics of bullying, just like Trump. Perhaps that's what we need? Perhaps the DNA of fighting and ignoring regulations will come in handy...I just wish it didn't have to. The whole thing is just sad.
tptacek 2 days ago 1 reply      
Please consider:

It's heartening to see tech CEOs speak out against bigotry and disheartening to see other tech leaders remain quiet and it all makes a potent narrative and easy access to the tops of message board front pages.

But it does not. actually. matter. what tech leadership does.

We are not all sitting dutifully in our seats at Moscone waiting to see what "one more thing" from CEOs and venture capitalists is going to look like. We're also not prisoners of the management of companies whose CEOs join the administration or attend summits at Trump's garish Barad-Dfus.

It may not be true for all workers in all industries but as someone who's been working in tech for more than 20 years I'm telling you that our management needs us more than we need them. There has never been a better market for our services or a set of employers more dependent on our goodwill and cooperation than in 2017.

Do not wait for your firm's CEO to take a stand. Organize with your coworkers. If you don't know how to get started doing that, start thinking of stabs you can take at the problem. Organizing is a problem where code actually might make a difference. Organize a pledge, or a group statement, or meetups. Or some other idea we haven't come up with yet.

A lot of engineers want to believe their work is apolitical. I understand the impulse. But your work is political whether you want it to be or not. If you don't put your market power to use for your beliefs, you're just accepting your employer's default settings, and putting it to work for theirs. Don't accept the defaults.

Organize your workplace. You have a crazy amount of influence you're not using right now. It won't always be like this; don't waste the opportunity.

Places to start:

The Indivisible guide:

https://www.indivisibleguide.com/ --- there are at least 10 software projects buried in this thing, but also remember the same ideas apply on a smaller scale both in local politics and at your work place.

https://twitter.com/techsolidarity --- show up to one of these. They're well attended and they'll interface you to your local (serious) activist community, people actually working with those at risk.

Also things I've said in the last few days that I'd rather not repeat but are relevant:

On calling your reps:

https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=13509555 --- please punch your Senators and Congresspeople's numbers into your speed dial.

On running for office:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13493366 --- please convince a friend to run for local office.

On U2F, TOTP, and SMS:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13493100 --- please disable SMS authentication on services that will let you. :)

If you're building applications to ensure that people put pressure on their local representatives or, even better, to get normal people to run for local elected office, I want to help!

rdl 2 days ago 0 replies      
What he and other business advisory group meeting people say on Friday is going to have more impact than any number of street protests.
xacaxulu 2 days ago 2 replies      
The virtue signaling is strong with this one.
throw2016 2 days ago 1 reply      
I don't support this action but how can you reconcile being offended by this action and yet be blase while we nonchalantly bombs others daily leading to the complete devastation of entire countries and their people.

This does not seem consistent. One is right to move freely and the other is right to live. Why is this so much worse than the other? This is just one more in a line of negative actions towards a particular region and its people who are being abused and killed for self serving geo-political and economic reasons.

mangeletti 2 days ago 0 replies      
Is this 2017? We're taking ethics lessons from the CEO of Uber?
schappim 2 days ago 0 replies      
I was expecting Uber to ban the Trump administration from using Uber, but instead was pleased see a far classier move to help out drivers stuck outside the country:

>> We are working out a process to identify these drivers and compensate them pro bono during the next three months to help mitigate some of the financial stress and complications with supporting their families and putting food on the table. We will have more details on this in the coming days.

llamataboot 2 days ago 0 replies      
Uber is currently scabbing to break a taxi strike at JFK that is being done against this immigration ban. Kalanick is actively collaborating with Trump.
primitivesuave 2 days ago 0 replies      
Travis Kalanick and "standing up for what's right" are mutually exclusive. I thought this would be about finally paying Uber drivers more than starvation wages, and was not too surprised to see it is just a PR stunt.
diebir 2 days ago 0 replies      
As an Uber employee, I would also like to NOT see TK at the Trump's "business forum". Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft and others are staying away.
rocky1138 2 days ago 1 reply      
Ghostery blocked this. Does anyone have a text dump?
EGreg 2 days ago 0 replies      
I thought this guy largely had a reputation as an asshole ... but here he comes off as downright responsible and caring.
obi1kenobi 2 days ago 1 reply      
Interesting bit: Travis Kalanick pledges that Uber will compensate drivers stuck overseas because of the executive orders.
orblivion 2 days ago 1 reply      
They say Trump is easily swayed by people he meets with. Let's hope this works.
quakeguy 2 days ago 0 replies      
Only a glimpse of what is to come i fear, lets hope the best.
empy 2 days ago 3 replies      
America is so divided now. So maybe it's better just to divide America into liberal America and conservative America. This is better for both left and right side.
ChuckMcM 2 days ago 0 replies      
I suppose he could pull out of DC
DanBC 2 days ago 0 replies      
I booked my first Uber ride because of this post.
bamboozled 2 days ago 2 replies      
Who really cares what this hypocrite and other US based technology CEOs like him think.

For them it's fine to totally to run companies who:

 * Abuse user privacy. * Constatntly pretend they are driving positive social progress. * Track people in a non-transparent, disrespectful way. * Build echo chambers to keep people ill-informed and hooked on using services. * Avoid paying tax. * Automate people out of jobs, while not contributing to wellfare systems. * Get rich off state owned infrastructure and give little to nothing back. * Give money to political parties. * Exploit cheap labor. * Censor things for government agencies.
However, as soon as profts are at risk, they decide to come out swinging.

Where is the outrage when a child goes hungry in Africa, or a person is bombed in Syria by a US drone? The billions and billions of dollars tied up in these companies should be going back into communities, education, medical and food aid. Not on "moonshots", and ambiguous charity initiaivies which only go towards lining their pockets further.

It's companies that operate in this way which gave Trump a voice, knowingly or unknowningly. Trump didn't just magic himself into the Whitehouse, did he?

I feel sorry for anyone affected by this but having CEOs throwing bullshit into the bonfire won't help.

Everyone is responsible for the current situation, it's not just the actions of one man.

fdsaaf 2 days ago 4 replies      
baybal2 2 days ago 0 replies      
+1 to that guy, even if it is a PR move
owly 2 days ago 0 replies      
READY? Boycott Uber. Do not use under any circumstances.
camperman 2 days ago 0 replies      
"While every government has their own immigration controls, allowing people from all around the world to come here and make America their home has largely been the U.S.s policy since its founding."


whenwillitstop 2 days ago 1 reply      
Travis Kalanick, standing up for the cheap labor that drives his Ubers and writes it's code.
earthly10x 2 days ago 0 replies      
To address the trump problem, we must have a good understanding of trump himself, his DNA and this clip helps with that I noticed: https://youtu.be/CTzBZuPx1lQ?t=1643
paradox95 2 days ago 0 replies      
Too bad he's silent for the past year when these issues were obviously going to happen. He allowed it to happen. And now he's quietly giving Trump lip service behind closed doors. He (Travis + Uber) doesn't give a damn about anyone. As long as they can get some Uber-friendly policy from Trump they'll continue to let him do whatever he wants. They are enabling him by working with him on other issues while ignoring this.

Such PR bullshit. Trying to look good in the public eye.

Chrome Widevine DRM can no longer be disabled chromium.org
431 points by ivank  1 day ago   271 comments top 21
0x0 1 day ago 18 replies      
This + moving SSL certificate details dialog hidden away into devtools + no way to disable NaCl + chrome 56 auto-re-enabling flash and widevine on every launch (which shows a click-to-enable-flash everywhere chrome55 would just use a html5 video player) + the upcoming background tab throttling means I'll be seriously reconsidering firefox or safari before the next Chrome release :-/
shmerl 1 day ago 1 reply      
I'm glad Mozilla provides EME-free version of Firefox: https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/releases/51.0/
ferbivore 1 day ago 1 reply      
Looks like the semi-official Google position is that Widevine should have been impossible to disable all along [1]. Go figure.

[1]: https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=615738...

BrendanEich 21 hours ago 1 reply      
That's interesting, because Brave has Widevine off by default and includes this notice in the preference UX for enabling it:


Google Widevine Support

Google Widevine is a piece of Digital Rights Management (DRM) code that we at Brave Software do not own and cannot inspect. The Google Widevine code is loaded from Google servers, not from our servers. It is loaded only when you enable this option. We discourage the use of DRM, but we respect user choice and acknowledge that some Brave users would like to use services that require it. [info link to https://www.eff.org/issues/drm]

By installing this extension, you are agreeing to the Google Widevine Terms of Use. You agree that Brave is not responsible for any damages or losses in connection with your use of Google Widevine. [info link to https://www.google.com/policies/terms/]

Enable Google Widevine support [button label]


You can view this as a DRM mandate canary if you like. It's still in Brave 0.13.0. That's all I have to say for now.

robxu9 1 day ago 3 replies      
TIL that Widevine DRM is the reason my HDMI monitor flashes whenever I start or stop viewing something on Netflix or Amazon Video.


wslh 1 day ago 1 reply      
We are all that boiling frog [1]. Google, and others, introduced a new business tactic that is even been followed by Microsoft (in reverse mode). They push all kind of open source and free stuff and slowly, very slowly, they move to old monopolies tactics. Most locked people will not change to another browser just because they added a new "tiny" portion of code which is not political correct.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog

swiley 1 day ago 2 replies      
Google is turning the web into things it never should have become. It's very sad.
nmjohn 1 day ago 1 reply      
What a frustrating change. However it still is possible to disable (though you probably will need to do this every time chrome updates)

Simply deleting the folder that contains "widevinecdmadapter.plugin" will effectively disable the plugin.

So, for example, on OSX using homebrew to install chrome, it'd be:

 rm -rf /opt/homebrew-cask/Caskroom/google-chrome-canary/latest/Google\ Chrome\ Canary.app/Contents/Versions/58.0.2996.0/Google\ Chrome\ Framework.framework/Libraries/WidevineCdm

bostand 1 day ago 1 reply      
I don't mind paying for content. In fact, I pay a lot for my content consumption as direct purchases and streaming services.

But I don't like having a huge pile of unverified third party code in a browser i never use for content consumption.

adzm 1 day ago 1 reply      
Is there a technical reason that this can't simply be disabled with a feature flag like many of Chrome's other features? It would avoid the whole issue.

Also reading this bug report makes me realize this is probably what was going on when I had similar strange issues happen with chrome and tabs and running stuff through HDMI splitters for KVM etc.

goslackware 2 hours ago 0 replies      
It appears that DRM in Chrome might be disabled by disabling the "WidevineCDM" (binary) component update via group policy:https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=624128
rabboRubble 4 hours ago 1 reply      
Funny enough in Firefox Widevine was default set to Always Activate on my machine. Not sure how long it's been that way. There was no "ask to activate" option. I was however able to set to "never activate". Let's see how long before this becomes annoying.
bartvk 20 hours ago 0 replies      
I've moved to Firefox on my MacBook. To make it a bit more macOS-like, there's two nice plugins:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/pinch-to-zoom... for pinch-to-zoom

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/compact-theme... for a theme that makes it look more Safari-like

Fej 3 hours ago 1 reply      
You know what they say - switch to Firefox now, or you won't have a choice later.
mtarnovan 1 day ago 3 replies      
This might be the straw that finally pushed me to switch to some other browser. Any thoughts on Chromium vs Firefox?
raldi 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Can someone explain this in a way that assumes no prior knowledge of Widevine or EME?
murkle 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is a useful link from there: chrome://flags/#prefer-html-over-flash
timonovici 1 day ago 2 replies      
I currently use Firefox with JS disabled, for casual browsing, and Min for anything with video or JS https://minbrowser.github.io/min/ - finally, after years, I can use a system with less than 8G of RAM.

This browser is based on Electron - does Electron also bundle this abomination of DRM plugin?

angryasian 1 day ago 1 reply      
Sorry but can someone explain the problem. I'm very familiar with widevine, hls / hlse, and other various DRM type solutions. To me it appears a lot of uninformed answers or something that's completely blown out of proportion. So looking for someone to explain ?
imode 1 day ago 1 reply      
so, it's kind of worrying. I hope this kind of change won't be common among browsers. I'd rather a killswitch and a moment of "ah crap, I have to enable that" than a slew of third-party code enabled at all times.

no thanks.

neurobot 14 hours ago 0 replies      
i switch from Firefox only if i want to watch video on non-HTML5 website.
My Next Mac Mini rustyshelf.org
425 points by ingve  2 days ago   344 comments top 59
fowlerpower 2 days ago 13 replies      
Someone here needs to explain it to me because I just don't understand.

We have the largest computer company in the world, a shit load of people work there, supposedly smart people. Yet they can't put together a refresh of many of their desktop machines. Why the fuck not? What do all those people getting paid all that money do all day? I can only imagine the conversations, "it takes years it has to be super innovative". No it fucking doesn't not on the PC, just put the latest processors and tech in it. You don't have to innovate every fucking time, not on the desktop PC. We see this all the time with Apple devices and I can't understand it.

I mean I don't understand what do they do all day every day for 800 days that they can't refresh this simple Machine. Maybe I'm being nieve here or I'm missing something.

finstell 2 days ago 5 replies      
Nowadays, I kind of enjoy seeing posts about people abandoning Apple ecosystem. Although it's painful, I myself have been yet another avid fan of pretty much Apple offered, it feels like this is not going to last forever.

When they do the math, iPhone might seem the most lucrative (they seem not to care about anything else) but since they are killing the ecosystem with no Mac Pro, no Mac Mini and with so called pro MacBooks, developers will abandon Apple eventually. Even if iPhone becomes/remains the most technologically advanced smart phone on the market, it would be like a distant paradise island with no airports. Airplanes (developers and subsequently the end users) will be landing on alternative airports on emerging islands, letting them prosper. Consequently, Apple island will be deserted.

coldtea 2 days ago 6 replies      
>Well, perfect except that six years in this machine is very creaky. It needs a reboot every week or so (otherwise it will refuse to launch anything).

That sounds totally unrelated to the age of the machine, and totally related to what's installed, the mini running out of disk, etc.

Maybe do a clean install of the OS?

Aside from the mechanical parts (CD ROMS, Hard Disks, etc), the "digital" parts of a PC do not age and their age does not affect program execution speed (all other things being equal).

Either they work, or they don't (well, corrupted memory can cause crashes when accessed, but it wont slow down programs).

esfandia 2 days ago 4 replies      
I had the same experience as the OP. My Mac Mini was getting old, and the fan was making a worrisome noise. I wasn't going to buy the "latest" Mini, since it is very stale, hard to upgrade and expensive for what it is. Funnily enough I was already running Windows on that Mini anyway, so my next computer didn't have to be a Mac. But I did enjoy the small footprint, and I have to say that the Mac is probably the easiest hardware to run Windows on. The drivers have been tested and everything just works.

I ended up with the latest "Skull Canyon" NUC as well. Even though it is thinner than my old Mini, its footprint on my desk is about the same, it's just less square. I'm not a fan of the color or the design; it seems marketed at teenage gamerzzz, not at the boring middle aged guy who prefers a minimalist Scandinavian style. But that's not very important. I did have to buy the SSD and the RAM separately, I had to install Windows myself (so that's no better than buying a Mini to run Windows on), and I did have to hunt for a couple of drivers. I don't know why they don't sell a fully configured machine.

Its fan is not as quiet as the Mini, and it has some weird transient behavior when it wakes up from hibernation. It didn't come cheap (I maxed pretty much every spec though). It is very fast, it does the job competently, but I don't Love it like I Loved the Mini. Sad that Apple has abandoned this cute nifty little machine.

srj 2 days ago 1 reply      
I had the same experience when I went to create a small recording studio for my wife. I figured I'd use garage band on a Mac Mini and connect the mixer to that. I changed my plans after going to Apple's website - I don't want to buy old tech and especially not at full price.

It's bizarre to see a company with the wealth and resources of Apple not even putting out spec upgrades for their machines. I could say the same about my old MacBook Air I've been wanting to upgrade. Just throw us a bone here Apple. Even a small bump in specs.

Marazan 2 days ago 2 replies      
Apple's attitude to the Mac mini truly confuses me. Many years ago I was interested in getting one for eithet iPhone development or as a media pc but every time I looked they kept seeming to jack the price or downgrade the spec (relatively speaking).
caleblloyd 2 days ago 5 replies      
The NUC has full Linux support out of the box. You can configure them with 16GB of RAM and a 256GB-512GB SSD for $400-$500, especially if you go for the old model (Gen 6 Skylake instead of Gen 7 Kaby Lake, not much has changed)
luckystartup 2 days ago 0 replies      
I'm confused. That Mac Mini is still amazing. They didn't say anything about wiping the hard drive and reinstalling everything. Maybe there are some problems with the harddrive, so just replace it with a new SSD. Check the RAM and see if any needs replacing. You need to do all of that before you go out and buy a new computer.

I'm using a Lenovo Q190 [1] that runs lubuntu. It's a little slow to start, but everything runs fine. I run Plex Server, Plex Home Theater, Spotify, and RetroPie.

I would gladly trade it for a 2010 Mac Mini. That's crazy. Just reinstall everything and run a scan on your disk and RAM.

[1] http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/desktops/lenovo/q-series/q190/#...

rwmj 2 days ago 5 replies      
I would take a look at the Gigabyte Brix. The basic model is 119 [1] - considerably cheaper than the Intel NUC. I have a couple running a firewall and a little server, and they have trucked along for years without problems.

[1] For a more complete spec including the other parts you may need, see: https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2015/05/04/new-home-gateway-route...

nottorp 2 days ago 5 replies      
Speaking of NUCs, are there any that are

(a) quiet at load

(b) have the PSU integrated in the case?

Those are about the only redeeming qualities of a Mac Mini right now, and it pisses me off to no end that no one bothers with (b) on the Wintel side.

Edit: please don't explain to me how a power brick that's sometimes as large as the NUC doesn't bother you, it does bother me.

CoolGuySteve 2 days ago 0 replies      
I'm running a $65 FireTV with Kodi sideloaded that accomplishes everything I need. The device is silent and the remote is bluetooth and feels nice in the hand. (But to be fair, my router is used to download torrents and I don't ingest any Live TV.)

To be honest, I think the NUC or any other intel platform is overkill for TV these days.

Symbiote 2 days ago 1 reply      
Especially useful, "VESA mount bracket included in the box".

If you don't mind ~35mm more depth to your TV, you can mount the NUC on the back. Or, mount it to the back of a monitor, for an iMac replacement.

raphinou 2 days ago 5 replies      
Honest question : any good reasons to go with Windows rather than Linux?
nnain 2 days ago 0 replies      
I hate to bring this up -- but I earnestly think that Apple would do better with a Product Manager at the top post. Tim did good work for the company in optimizing operations, however envisioning new products is a different ball game.
DCKing 2 days ago 1 reply      
I understand this blogpost is meant to point out that Apple is abandoning desktop computers and their various use cases. It's all very bad and we haven't had enough articles discussing this yet, why won't Apple think of us anymore, etc. etc.

But I'm surprised he quickly says "No worries you might say, go to Apple and buy a new Mac mini!". If your Mac Mini behaves like he describes, wouldn't the straightforward response be to open it up, give the fans a good cleaning, maybe replace any HDDs with SSDs, and give it a fresh install (of either OS X or Windows 10)? If you blog about tech as this guy does surely it would be no issue at all to just (attempt to) quickly fix these issues.

Don't get me wrong, I too like buying new toys. But I'm amazed at how some apparently tech-savvy people think "this computer does not work as it used to, so it logically follows I should buy a new one!". The problems with his Mac Mini don't sound particularly bad and perfectly fixable in less time it would take to set up a new computer.

rcarmo 2 days ago 0 replies      
I built a Mini-like machine with a fair amount of oomph before Christmas, and have all the part lists and build details online:


jakobegger 2 days ago 1 reply      
Can someone here explain why Apple seems to be the only company that builds small stuff with an integrated power supply?

What's the point in making something small, when you need a huge power brick to power it?

It's a shame that Apple's stuff is outdated, but it's just so much nicer when you look at the details.

awinder 2 days ago 0 replies      
I ran a windows pc connected to a tv for a while and ultimately decided that it was a lot of upkeep and hassle. Some of it was that I was using one of those infinitv cable card tuners with windows media center. But a lot of it was the pain of managing upgrades, and dealing with wake/sleep with an ir receiver. It was just always a lot of work.

So I moved to an Apple TV and a server running freenas. Any computer-y stuff basically involves the Apple TV talking to the nas, and I can admin the nas over web ui and ssh. I'm sure you can get remote admin setup with windows for similar experience, but having been on both sides, stuff breaks down all the time on windows and it's just a less-than-stellar OS for the tv.

jmkni 2 days ago 1 reply      
I wish Apple would just team up with Intel and license macOS on the NUC.

It's a perfect successor to the Mac Mini.

Joeri 2 days ago 3 replies      
One of the big selling points of the mini is that it's really quiet. Does anyone with actual experience know how the NUC compares? From what I've read it's significantly louder, which is not what you want from a living room PC.
facepalm 2 days ago 1 reply      
It seems to me an Amazon FireTV or even one of those sticks (firetv, chromecast) could do everything he wants.
puzzlingcaptcha 2 days ago 0 replies      
You can also build a good ol' fashioned htpc at almost half the price of this NUC: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/DmXrtJ

Could be even cheaper if you already have some spare parts.

It might use a bit more power and has a larger footprint, but there is enough space for 3.5" drives and it is practically noiseless at any load. Plus you can expand it with a TV tuner, a graphics card or a HDMI capture card.

dbg31415 2 days ago 0 replies      
I use a Raspberry Pi hooked up to my NAS and it's great. All for about $100.

Approximate setup I used:

* Amazon.com: CanaKit Raspberry Pi 3 Complete Starter Kit - 32 GB Edition: Electronics || https://www.amazon.com/CanaKit-Raspberry-Complete-Starter-Ki...

* Amazon.com: Air Mouse,ELEGIANT 2.4G 6-Axis Portable Mini Wireless Air Mouse Remote Control Keyboard for PC HTPC IPTV Smart TV and Android TV Box Media Player: Computers & Accessories || https://www.amazon.com/ELEGIANT-Portable-Wireless-Control-Ke...

You can also get some game controllers and RetroPie and turn your Raspberry Pi into a sweet little gaming machine. I have every NES, SNES, Genesis, and N64 game ever made I think. Plus it plays every video format (tends to struggle with 4k video outputs... I don't have a 4K TV so I just re-downloaded the video after I saw the issue).

* RetroPie - Retro-gaming on the Raspberry Pi || https://retropie.org.uk/

* Amazon.com: Buffalo Classic USB Gamepad for PC: Computers & Accessories || https://www.amazon.com/Buffalo-Classic-USB-Gamepad-PC/dp/B00...

rasengan0 1 day ago 0 replies      
I'm in the same boat but opted for ChromeOS with Linux https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton on https://www.groupon.com/deals/gg-acer-116-chromebook-2857 My current mac mini sits idle only used for activities Chrome / linux doesn't support

Oh yeah, Apple? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13511241

yalogin 2 days ago 1 reply      
The problem is evenntoday there is no replacement of comparable alternative to the Mini. The Intel NUC is just a kit not a machine. So I cannot order it for my mom. Either the machine has no profit margin or the other companies are clueless to not bring a worthy competitor to market in all these years.
simonh 2 days ago 0 replies      
I just don't think Apple is trying to cover the whole computer market anymore, and in fact really haven't done for the whole post-NEXT era. They do basic and pro desktops and a few basic and pro laptops and that's it.

There will always be some pros and some consumers that want or need something a bit different and for them there's Linux and Windows, and from Apple's point of view that's fine.

Apple are long past trying to occupy every ecological niche that computers can fill. The level of fit and finish they put into their products means they just don't have the bandwidth to cover all the market, or update every product on every cycle. The NUC us a great little device and Windows 10 is the least worst version for years, so go for it. Enjoy.

gjkood 2 days ago 0 replies      
I have found the best way to enjoy Apple hardware without the sticker shock is to just go ahead and buy used Macs from vendors such as OWComputing (macsales.com) or macofalltrades.com.

The hardware is rock solid even if it is 3 or 4 years old and the software is upgradeable. And I know I will be able to use it for another 5 years without too much hassle.

My casual computing needs do not include high end gaming or deep learning using the latest GPUs.

I don't need anything more powerful to browse the internet, check my email and some casual document editing. This is what my family also does 90% of the time.

Sometimes it is cheaper to just change the timing belt on your car rather than leasing/buying the next latest/shiniest new thing.

bitL 2 days ago 1 reply      
Get a NUC5i5/NUC6i5 instead, that works with OS X like a charm. Kaby Lake won't work till Apple releases something with it. I have a quad boot on 5i5, Linux/W7/W10/OSX, a perfect little development machine.
base698 2 days ago 1 reply      
Just bought a NUC with an added 32GB of RAM as a dev machine. It's been great so far.
general_ai 2 days ago 1 reply      
"Never had to reboot". Yet every time I start my sparingly used Windows machine the first thing it wants me to do is reboot to install updates, and it's pretty insistent about it.
Entangled 2 days ago 1 reply      
The next Mac Mini should be the exact size of an Apple TV but in aluminum case, with the most RAM it can get and the fastest processor in the world.

We pay for quality and we expect Apple to deliver. That NUC is ugly as fuck.

sams99 2 days ago 0 replies      
I have a skull canyon NUC and love it. I work in a co-working space. At the end of my day I can disconnect it and put it in my locked drawer. It is tiny and super fast. Caveat though for those thinking they can hackintosh this thing, it is going to be tricky and incomplete https://www.tonymacx86.com/threads/intel-nuc-skull-canyon-sk...
benologist 2 days ago 0 replies      
NUCs are awesome, I'm waiting to add this passive cooling case to mine, then an external GPU effectively everything but my MBP will be able to share.


These also look quite capable:


forgottenacc57 2 days ago 0 replies      
All technology companies fail due to dogmatic self belief above their world view.

The Apple world view is that they do not need to aggressively compete in desktop/laptop computing.

intrasight 2 days ago 0 replies      
Complete PC with OS for ~$220. HDMI 2.0 with 4K at 60Hz. I expect that they'll sell a ton of them as HTPCs.


I use a Raspberry Pi 2 as my HTPC. As I only watch my own media on my NAS, it is perfectly adequate. But what is pretty surprising to consider is that this NUC is only about twice as expensive as my complete Raspberry Pi system.

aorth 1 day ago 0 replies      
Actually that machine looks greatbut where do I buy one? I searched for the product number of that NUC on Amazon and only find different (older) versions? There's something to be said for Apple's naming scheme versus "NUC Kit NUC7i5BNK" !
biot 2 days ago 0 replies      

 > a died in the wool Mac user
What an appropriate typo. Normally it should be "dyed in the wool".

labrador 2 days ago 1 reply      
I don't understand, since Apple has so much money, why they don't put some of it into the Mac line. It seems short-sighted.
HillaryBriss 2 days ago 0 replies      
He had me at: the last update Apple made to them was mostly a downgrade in terms of performance. No one except the most desperate of people should even consider buying one of these things. The fact that Apple will still happily sell you a 2-3 year old computer for new prices is beyond insulting.
kkylin 2 days ago 0 replies      
I remember going to the Apple Store the week they released the 2014 Mac Mini, taking one look, and going back to my campus bookstore and buying the last of the 2012 Mac Minis. Still very happy with that purchase.

Not sure about the rationale behind most of Apple's design decisions the last couple years...

Damogran6 2 days ago 1 reply      
That NUC looks like it would be SO close to my needs...but the need pushing a new, small, quiet computer into the living room is VR...and I don't think it would quite do that. (Perhaps a TB3 dock to a gtx1070?) I'm not ever sure if the blocker is processing power or physical video ports.
DrNuke 2 days ago 1 reply      
Trying to sell my mid 2011 right now but market is flooded, you didn't see this a couple of years ago.
spraak 2 days ago 0 replies      
I never really use my laptop as a portable computer. It usually still just sits at my desk, so I think next time I buy a machine I'll consider getting something like this and max out the RAM and get a nice USB monitor.
sunstone 2 days ago 0 replies      
For friends and family I've been building a few Zotac CI323's running Ubuntu 16.04 for this purpose. Not expensive even after adding a 80gig ssd and 8gigs of ram, passive cooling, between Chrome, Kodi and VLC it handles a lot of content.
otikik 2 days ago 0 replies      
I've got a Raspberry Pi 3 with raspbian and a SSD, all inside a tiny white box. It reproduces x264 video just fine.

Now that we might upgrade to a 4K TV I might need to look for alternatives. I wonder whether the NUC is my best option.

bootload 2 days ago 0 replies      
" Is this what Ive been missing all these years as a died in the wool Mac user?"

Laser focus in apple (cf @nattnewton), laser focus in customers perceptions.

supercanuck 2 days ago 0 replies      
I've tried this but i've struggled mightily getting audio via HDMI from the Nuc. no matter if I install Windows or Linux.

I simply replace the mac mini with the nuc, same hdmi etc and nothing.

So tread carefully.

ychombinator 2 days ago 0 replies      
If only Firefox / Intel would sort themselves out and get H.264 encoding working on the NUC so you can watch YouTube above 720p on Linux. Sigh.
intopieces 2 days ago 0 replies      
I'm usually happy to jump on the hate train even for companies I like (criticizing is fun) but this faux incredulity is becoming really stale.

Apple doesn't make the computer that fits your niche because it doesn't have to. They make gobs of money selling old machinery because for most people it works just fine.

A significant portion of every day computing is in the cloud anyway. It's why computers now have less file storage than before. Most people spend more time looking at their smartphone instead of their computer screen.

notadoc 2 days ago 0 replies      
Looks like a good machine.

Really makes you wonder why Apple seems to be neglecting the Mac Mini, or the Mac line in general.

synaesthesisx 2 days ago 0 replies      
Apple is aggressively at work with their new depth sensors + SoC and GPU for their new lens wearable.
Twiebie 2 days ago 1 reply      
This doesn't run MacOS without some hackingtosh stuff, does it? Or did he switch to Windows with it?
return0 2 days ago 0 replies      
Can that thing run OSX ? damn, i just ordered a mac mini to do some ios dev.
once-in-a-while 2 days ago 1 reply      
plg 2 days ago 0 replies      
Where does one buy one of these Intel NUCs???
andreapaiola 2 days ago 0 replies      
Better late than never...
khazhou 2 days ago 0 replies      
Ok great. So now I want to buy this. With a hard drive, etc ... I want to go a purchase site, select my specs, and hit purchase.

NOT SO FAST. This is a Kit. I have to buy the components separately and assemble. Hurray for roadblocks.

wildchild 2 days ago 0 replies      
Apple is a scam and nothing else.

It's more clear for me after my Mac Mini 2009 is no longer supported by Sierra without any constructive reason (you can install it with pair of crutches but no Wi-Fi). Actually Apple is selling fancy outdated hardware with pretty questionable "new features" like touchbar bullshit to excuse their ridiculous pricing model.

Awesome that more people abandoning it.

orbitur 2 days ago 2 replies      
Blog post leaves out an important point: is it easy to get macOS running on that particular model?

edit: The mini hasn't competed on a purely specs/price level since, perhaps, its first year or two of existence. There have long been better, similarly sized options if you don't care about OS X.

Whiteboard sticker for your laptop sketchcase.com
422 points by codeinterview  3 days ago   149 comments top 40
SiVal 2 days ago 2 replies      
I'm not being glib here, but after experimenting with many such solutions over the years, I've found that the best solution for me is to always carry a cheap, paper notebook--like one of those black/white-spotted composition notebooks with cardboard covers and unlined paper--that is about the size of my laptop lid. I just slide the laptop and notebook together into whatever backpack or bag I'm using for the laptop.

I always have a variety of pens and pencils with me, and writing/drawing with high-quality pens & pencils on real paper is better and more convenient in every way than writing on an equivalent-sized whiteboard surface. I then have 100 pages I can keep or give away instead of one that I have to delete and reuse, and without all the mess. Plus, I always have a couple of pens in my pocket, even when I don't have my laptop, so I never end up with a whiteboard but no markers.

The only time I've found whiteboards more useful than paper are when I needed a very large surface. If a small surface is good enough, paper works better for me.

sixdimensional 3 days ago 10 replies      
Actually, this just gave me a crazy idea... what if laptop manufacturers included something low powered like a boogie board device on the outside of the screen, which could write / save directly to some small internal storage of the laptop, and then the resulting notes could be accessible via the laptop when turned on? Kind of like.. a poor man's tablet on the outside of a laptop? I wonder the cost of that vs. touch screens / digital pens.
fluxem 3 days ago 9 replies      
I think it's a terrible idea. First, marker ink would be smudge all over backpack. Second, it's on the other side of the laptop! You wrote an algorithm on sketchcase and want to implement it. Well, now you have turn your laptop around every time too see it.
mcescalante 3 days ago 4 replies      
I think this is a really good idea, but if you look on eBay you can buy a 200cm by 45cm (~ 78.7 in by 17.7in) vinyl whiteboard sticker for $5. You could buy this, trim it down and use it on a handful of laptops at a significantly cheaper cost. There are lots of other listings for "whiteboard vinyl sticker" but here is the $5 one:


Also, I wonder if a "whiteboard magnet" would stick well to a mabook or aluminum bodied portable - wouldn't leave any residue: http://www.ebay.com/itm/17-x-11-Dry-Erase-Magnetic-Refrigera...

Null-Set 3 days ago 1 reply      
Now you can tell applicants that yes they will be coding on a laptop during the interview.
chris_7 3 days ago 3 replies      
Stickers on laptops usually make Jony Ive sad, and he's sad enough already being locked in that white room with one set of clothes.

But this one is much better, because it occupies the entire laptop!

asteli 3 days ago 2 replies      
When I had a non-unibody Macbook Pro, I would actually doodle with a dry-erase marker directly onto my (glass) screen. This was handy for making small annotations as I was pondering designs, PCB layouts, etc.

Unfortunately for my screen-doodling habit, new MacBooks have some kind of coating (AR? Oleophobic?) that causes the marker's fluid to bead up, ruining the effect.

snarf21 3 days ago 2 replies      
I think this is pretty neat and love all things whiteboard but the one annoyance is that I now need to carry around a whiteboard marker and eraser (if you don't want crap all over your fingers from erasing). Note: I don't think you can solve that problem.

And now I probably am carrying a backpack which makes paper + pen better. I think the #1 benefit of a whiteboard is the size. I can draw huge diagrams and everyone in the room can see and not have to huddle around a piece of paper.

I still think it is interesting....

DonHopkins 3 days ago 1 reply      
You can get a quart of chalkboard paint for $15.

You can even recycle broken laptops by painting the screen!


cnojima 3 days ago 1 reply      
Cshelton 3 days ago 1 reply      
This has been around for awhile now and you can actually order them today: http://www.drawattention.co/ (aside from them being sold out...)
glibgil 3 days ago 0 replies      
The smallest whiteboard combined with the dirtiest laptop? No thanks!
cconcepts 3 days ago 0 replies      
I dont get the indicators that its a new product. These guys look like they have been doing this since 2014: http://www.drawattention.co
chiefalchemist 2 days ago 0 replies      
What I'd like to see is a stealthy monitor with case (or just a universal case for monitor or laptop). The case, fully open, could latch open and the back flat side would be a whiteboard or even clalk board. Kinda like an artist's portfolio case, but for devs.

In addition the case, if laptop size, would be semi drop proof. The point being, I'd travel more by bike if I didn't hear a fall would total my hardware.

Finally, big ask here, make it insulated. Leaving my machine in a cold car while snowboarding means I generally like to wait a bit til the machine comes back to room temp.

Yes. I've seen hardened cases (a la for DJs & musicians) but they're often overkill, AND I want the outside to serve a purpose (I.e., whiteboard).

Keep it in the $100 range and you have a winner.

King-Aaron 21 hours ago 0 replies      
We used to make whiteboards at a printing company I worked for. It was mainly just white SAV (self adhesive vinyl) with a laminate over the top.

Ten dollars is an awful lot to pay for that, when you're talking about just a laptop size. You'd be looking at much less than a dollar in materials.

Edit: Though the fella obviously recognises this, and has a DIY on the page... And I can see people buying them for the convenience element. Still though...

jasonwilk 3 days ago 0 replies      
Instead of waiting, you can just order a small Writeyboard now which is exactly the same thing.


RUG3Y 3 days ago 0 replies      
I think it's a neat idea but personally, I'll stick to a legal pad. I use them quite a bit, but not enough to justify switching to something like this and then taking photos of my work.
nirav72 3 days ago 0 replies      
So basically I have to either flip it down to see what someone drew on the whiteboard or turn it around. Pen and paper work just as well.
Uptrenda 3 days ago 0 replies      
Ive been using my laptop like this for years. I just bought some white plastic film you use to protect text books with and stuck it to the back of my Thinkpad. Works great for todo lists. I also agree that they should build a laptop like this where every free surface can be written on as a white board. It is surprising just how much I use this.
mansilladev 2 days ago 0 replies      
Comes with free erasers: your shirt, arms and backpack.
keithpeter 2 days ago 0 replies      
I liked the roadmap on the OA's page.

Others have mentioned the stick-on dry wipe vinyl whiteboards that are available. For walls there is also 'magic whiteboard' - a roll of plastic material that sticks to the wall using static electricity.

I'd mention the 'mini-whiteboards' sold for use in classrooms - usually A4/Letter size. These are about 2mm thick and can be used as clipboards as well with a suitable bulldog clip. My final idea would be to get a map case like the one that hikers use to keep their maps dry and put completed whiteboards in that for reference.

Personally, I prefer paper/pen &c

jacek 3 days ago 1 reply      
Looks like a solution to a non-existing problem.
blauditore 2 days ago 0 replies      
Ideally, this could be done on the screen itself. Using a 2-in-1-laptop like Lenovo Yogas you can position the screen directly in front of you, and it has a touchscreen (obviously).

I guess the problem is that even with digital pens, haptic feedback and maybe precision are not up to par with the real thing. But those things might improve a lot in the next 10-20 years, there seems to be a decent amount of research going on for the former.

bostand 3 days ago 2 replies      
Or you can use a laptop with touch screen and/or a digital pen...

And Google and microsoft have note taking apps that makes your hand writing searchable.

Edit: wow, some people on HN really dislike touchscreens...

mrmondo 2 days ago 0 replies      
I used to have a similar whiteboard stick on my old MacBook back in 2011 - it was really useful as long as I remembered to bring a whiteboard marker with me to meetings. It'd be nice to have an eink boogieboad like wrap instead but the problem with those it's it's erase all or nothing so, I'm sticking with ordering a new whiteboard wrap from here as they're so cheap.
choult 2 days ago 0 replies      
For the past five years I've been working at white-veneered desks - and for the vast majority of that time I've actually been using my desk as a dry-wipe board. It doesn't make too much of a mess when it rubs off on my hands, and it's a fantastic way to quickly sketch out a to-do list or draw a diagram for a colleague.
jgord 2 days ago 0 replies      
I wonder about the low-tech use case of :

writing on this wb surface on laptop, then re-covering with clear plastic to make it semi-permanent [ preventing wipe off with handling / slipcase / backpack ]

Does the original peel-off wb material cover would re-adhere ? .. if so, handy.

knieveltech 3 days ago 0 replies      
Google reports a 75% increase in searches on the terms "how to get dry erase marker out of clothing"
gthtjtkt 3 days ago 0 replies      
You can get a giant roll of this stuff on Amazon for $6 less than your shipped price.

And they even include a marker...

groby_b 3 days ago 0 replies      
Just what I want to do - draw private info on the back of my laptop and lug it around. Anybody got a way to print CC numbers onto my shoes?

(IOW: I think it's a cool hack that fails to consider actual implications outside of the immediate problem solved.)

I_am_tiberius 3 days ago 5 replies      
My fear would be that my notes are being erased when putting the notebook into my backpack.
apapli 2 days ago 0 replies      
Cute. But impractical, not to mention messy. They should allow you to put your company's logo on it, as it would be a cool alternative to branded coffee cups, pens and mouse pads.
socialentp 3 days ago 0 replies      
Cool idea, but you might want to revise your messaging: "I could make one for them but making them by hand is REALLY time consuming." "Handcrafted by Charles Han"
chewxy 2 days ago 0 replies      
Fascinating. Other people has come to the same conclusion I see. Here's mine posted on reddit a few days ago : https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/5q8evm/comment/d...
wattt 3 days ago 0 replies      
Just get a touchscreen already. Then you can draw like on every other device you currently own.
vans 2 days ago 0 replies      
I love having pen marks on my shirt when i'm carrying my laptop
5706906c06c 2 days ago 0 replies      
I use a pencil on my MacBook, and then erase it.
amingilani 2 days ago 0 replies      
I'm so excited. Ordered this, exactly what I needed!
rubyfan 2 days ago 0 replies      
This is a fantastic idea.
Raspberry Pi 3 based home automation with Node.js and React Native github.com
347 points by sconxu  4 days ago   90 comments top 16
pjungwir 4 days ago 6 replies      
This looks like a lot of fun! Using a RaspPi is really attractive to me because you can make everything interoperate, and nothing depends on some company's servers.

I've done two Pi projects now that I keep meaning to blog about. One was a sprinkler control system. My old system was dying, and not very flexible, so I decided to run everything off a Pi. The tricky part was driving 13 sprinkler lines with 24V AC current. I bought a 16-relay board and eventually got it wired up. For someone with little electronics experience, there was a lot to learn. [1] is an attempt before I realized I had to use the relays. Eventually I got it working and used it all summer. With cron, I can schedule things however I want!

The second is a security camera for a vacation rental home, and is not quite done yet. The hardware side was not challenging at all, but I still need to work out how to copy the images up to S3 or a Linode. I'm using MotionEyeOS and it doesn't seem to know how to do that itself. One of the big reasons I went with a Pi is I didn't want to pay or rely on someone else's servers. Also I wanted to avoid the security problems that have been in the news lately. I don't want inbound traffic to my LAN; I'd rather push the video somewhere else.

It took me a long time to figure out worthwhile uses for a Pi. A friend of mine loves using these things for media servers and CI servers and whatnot, but to me it's only satisfying if it's something where you actually need the miniature scale. Also a Pi really hits the sweet spot for me in terms of hardware-vs-software. I'm sure I could have done the first project with an Arduino, but using ssh, cron, and python was really nice.

[1] http://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/50435/driving...

redsummer 4 days ago 5 replies      
I managed to get bilingual voice activation (Alexa and Siri/HomeKit - maybe Google Home in future) working with Home Assistant, homebridge, pi-mote, raspberry pi 3 and four energenie sockets. (In the US I guess you could use etekcity sockets)





I wouldn't call it simple to set up, but it was cheap - about 70 (not including Alexa device, which could even be the same pi - https://github.com/alexa/alexa-avs-sample-app/wiki/Raspberry... )

linker3000 4 days ago 0 replies      
There's some really useful stuff going on there - nice write-up.

Anyone getting into this field should take a look at Peter Scargill's Tech Blog - he has published details and code for a home control system centered around a Pi using MQTT with a range of modules (mostly ESP8266). The most interesting recent stuff is on control, monitoring and dashboard design for phone and Web apps - his work on the dials and gauges is very good.

Pete also takes a regular look at other non-Pi platforms from an IoT control perspective.


deepsyx 4 days ago 2 replies      
Hello and thanks for the post! I'm the author of this repo. I would be happy to answer any questions :) Also any feedback/ideas are greatly appreciated!
dnadler 4 days ago 2 replies      
Cool! I'm doing something similar, but more from the data-analysis side of things for my condo's efficiency.

I've been trying to keep a blog of my progress, if anyone is interested, though please forgive the poor grammar / stream-of-consciousness in the posts... I've been writing quickly to get caught up.


Freestyler_3 4 days ago 3 replies      
Ok, Here is what I have been thinking of:

a PI, many sensors and controls.the pi to do the things the pi always does.the sensors to sense room temp. in each room.And this is the hardest one, flow control per radiator.

I want that I can set room temp schedules, and can go off schedule using the app (manual intervention) When the current temp in any room is below the set temp for that room the heater system turns onThe rooms that are already above their set temp have the radiators turned down.

Why? Because I don't like to waste heat to a room I don't enter 90% of the day.And when my living room has reached the target temp there is always a room that is either still stone cold or feels like sauna.

The hardest part about this is the controllable radiator valves, the rest already exists.

geomark 4 days ago 3 replies      
Nice project. Mine isn't quite so ambitious (yet). I just need to monitor water pumps. Does anyone have a suggestion for a water flow sensor? I need to detect if there is water present at the pump input. So far the only thing I've been able to get my hands on is a water flow meter [1]. But it's overkill because I don't need to measure flow rate, only presence of water.

[1] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Black-G1-Inch-Water-Flow-Hal...

ryfm 4 days ago 1 reply      
Cool, working on a similar project, but having a different stack

1. Z-wave switches/outlets/locks - all lamps, receptacles and locks controlled by Vera Edge;2. DSC alarm system - door/flood sensors, integrated with Vera;3. Nest cameras - not integrated;4. Nest thermostat - integrated with Vera and Alexa;

Currently trying to integrate Vera and Alexa to have fully voice- controlled home.

tete 3 days ago 0 replies      
Hope that doesn't sound bad, it's not meant to be, but am I the only one who doesn't see a lot of "automation" there?

Looks more like monitoring and control, on which you could of course build automation, but I personally am also not sure where to head on that one.

Nevertheless: Cool project! :)

deepsy 3 days ago 0 replies      
I just added a video! https://youtu.be/wh0OoLUTeM8
wiradikusuma 4 days ago 1 reply      
anyone know good but cheap WiFi/Bluetooth-enabled adapter(?) for lightbulbs? e.g. so I can use any machine (not just Pi) that supports WiFi/Bluetooth to control (at least on/off) the bulb.

so: wall --> adapter --> lightbulb

z3t4 4 days ago 1 reply      
any ideas how to run cables ? im currently using radio but it can be noisy with many units.
nialv7 4 days ago 1 reply      
Why is everyone trying to write everything in JS nowadays...?
dvh 4 days ago 3 replies      
aarondf 4 days ago 2 replies      
FYI: This was submitted two other times in the past 19 hours, making this the third.


brian_herman 4 days ago 0 replies      
RRRRR GGGGG BBBBBB this is awesome!
Cruise Shows Off Level 4 Skills in SF, Passing Uber and Maybe Waymo driverless.id
369 points by paul  2 days ago   143 comments top 28
abalone 2 days ago 4 replies      
At the risk of sounding pedantic this is not a Level 4 demo. It is a Level 2 demo where the driver didn't have to intervene during the demonstrated route.

What's the difference? Apart from the legal requirement to have a diver ready to take over in test vehicles (which necessarily makes it Level 2), the fundamental difference is that you'd have to show a lot more than one demo to establish that you've achieved Level 4. Level 4s are supposed to be able to operate without human intervention at all within prescribed domains (e.g. downtown cities). That doesn't mean operate one trip or one day or one month without a disengagement -- that's still Level 2.

I'm super impressed by the demo but Cruise will have to show more data to back up a Level 4 claim.

Animats 2 days ago 7 replies      
Nice. It's annoying that they provide only 10x sped up video. Watching this slowed down is helpful.


* There are frequent steering twitches to the left. This may be associated with passing parked cars. There are similar twitches to the right when in the left lane of a one-way street.

* Crosswalk behavior when turning needs some work. The vehicle enters the intersection, then stops in the intersection before the crosswalk with people in it. This is a hard problem, because the system needs to recognize people waiting to cross but not yet in the roadway. When the light turns green, both the pedestrians going straight and the turning vehicle can enter the intersection, the pedestrians having right of way. The pedestrians now block the vehicle, and the vehicle blocks the bike lane.

* Left turns into multi-lane streets are too wide and into the wrong lane.

* On two occasions, the vehicle is stuck behind a doubly-parked vehicle engaged in loading. The options are to wait or to cross a double yellow line. There's a delay of several seconds, then forward movement. Suspect manual intervention.

exDM69 2 days ago 1 reply      
"Level 4" means that no human intervention is required and in case of conditions going from good to bad, the car can autonomously put itself in a safe state.

That was nice and clean city driving in the video clips but nothing that distinguishes it from "Level 3" (human intervention may be required within ~15 seconds or so) or even "Level 2" (human intervention may be required within seconds, current state of the art).

dorianm 2 days ago 0 replies      
Level 0: Automated system has no vehicle control, but may issue warnings.

Level 1: Driver must be ready to take control at any time. Automated system may include features such as Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC), Parking Assistance with automated steering, and Lane Keeping Assistance (LKA) Type II in any combination.

Level 2: The driver is obliged to detect objects and events and respond if the automated system fails to respond properly. The automated system executes accelerating, braking, and steering. The automated system can deactivate immediately upon takeover by the driver.

Level 3: Within known, limited environments (such as freeways), the driver can safely turn their attention away from driving tasks, but must still be prepared to take control when needed.

Level 4: The automated system can control the vehicle in all but a few environments such as severe weather. The driver must enable the automated system only when it is safe to do so. When enabled, driver attention is not required.

Level 5: Other than setting the destination and starting the system, no human intervention is required. The automatic system can drive to any location where it is legal to drive and make its own decision.

From the Society of Automotive Engineers


andrewem 2 days ago 1 reply      
Watching this video what struck me most was how overbuilt almost all the streets were - they're designed for high speeds and devote essentially all the space to cars. We know how to get at least a 3x reduction in fatalities, as the Netherlands has done, with engineering changes that make human drivers less likely to make mistakes and make their mistakes less costly.
panitaxx 2 days ago 2 replies      
Pigeons and human have a pact. You continue and they will fly away in the last second. Cars don't need to stop for pigeons.https://youtu.be/xPCZtrac-Ss
employee8000 2 days ago 1 reply      
Very cool. But am I mistaken that they didn't attempt to go through a 4-way stop with massive pedestrians, like in PacHeights or Marina? I would be curious to see how they fared with the obnoxious drivers skipping their turn as well as the constant flow of pedestrians.

I'm also curious how it would react to going up Mason and California, where there's a traffic light at the top of a steep hill. Last time I had to physically pull myself up via the steering wheel to see anything, and as a seasoned driver I was a bit worried.

blisterpeanuts 2 days ago 3 replies      
Dumb question: how do these systems distinguish a traffic light? Here in New England at least, there's quite a variety of lights, many different modes (red, yellow, green, flashing red, flashing yellow, no-turn-left red arrow, no-turn-right red arrow, and different light technologies: old-fashioned style, Fresnel lens, slotted shade.

Add to this complexity the weather conditions. Suppose the sun is shining straight at you and you need to squint and shade your eyes just to make out what the light is -- this happens to me frequently -- can the camera see the traffic light and distinguish its color clearly under such conditions?

What about when it's raining, misting or drizzling, snowing heavily, etc. and the traffic lights are these fragmented outlines that you, the human, can heuristically distinguish but a machine might not?

One last thought: suppose it's right turn on red and first car in line is a self-driving vehicle. Can it really look left and safely determine there's enough time to beat the cross traffic? If it's highly conservative and just waits until green, there could be ten irate motorists behind it and guaranteed to honk and curse.

It's exciting technology but there are some very difficult problems to solve. I worry that if these machines can't demonstrate 110% of a human's ability to drive, they simply won't be implemented in many places except some very well defined rigid routes that are free of problematical challenges and variations.

grogenaut 2 days ago 2 replies      
Random side thought: How do I signal in an ambiguous situation to the car on who's going first. Like Super high traffic and I want to merge in front of them or let them go first? Currently I do that with a wave. Which is super effective on a motorcycle as people almost always say "sure we can squeeze you in here" which lets me get places way faster.
brianwawok 2 days ago 0 replies      
Good we need competition in this space. I love Tesla but if this is going to end up everywhere, we need a few good players.
renlo 2 days ago 1 reply      
It looks like the car doesn't travel in a straight line (it wobbles) because it's trying avoid parked cars.
mikepurvis 2 days ago 0 replies      
Cruise was a sponsor of ROSCon in 2014, but had no booth or presenters: http://roscon.ros.org/2014/#program

Nor do they have any presence I'm aware of on Github. This is in contrast to BMW, for example, who have made a number of contributions: https://github.com/bmwcarit

Anyway, just curious to what extent Cruise used (or still uses) ROS and open source software in their stack.

dsfyu404ed 1 day ago 1 reply      
I said it before and I'll say it again:

You might not be able to turn an aircraft carrier on a dime but when you do you've got an aircraft carrier.

GM (and the other automotive manufacturers for that matter) decided they wanted in on self driving and electric vehicles, had a few meetings, wrote a few checks and a few years later look at the result. Are Google and Tesla going to reply with similar videos?

woofyman 2 days ago 1 reply      
>within 5 to 10 years we'll see these vehicles driving safely around San Francisco
scirocco 1 day ago 0 replies      
It's interesting how the autonomous car evolution is to a very large extent a result from the private sector. Companies could have been asking the federal government to install sensors in all stop signs, and under the street to support this evolution. Rather, they look at the cities as they are and build something that works with it. Sometimes I wonder if government should take a more active role and ease the adoption by adapting cities to autonomus vehicle (rather than the other way around as it is today).
ea2100 2 days ago 1 reply      
Funny to see the it slow down for the pigeon in the road at 14:50.
rmason 2 days ago 1 reply      
Extremely cool feat. Next try Chicago or Detroit in January guys.
mavhc 1 day ago 0 replies      
Example edge case: Waymo cars know that police cars often stop behind other cars and to expect people to be walking nearby.

Thought: Once we have 99% self driving cars it will be quite easy to convert a portion of roads to pedestrian only at times when traffic is light: bollards go up, lighting changes, cars informed to reroute.

teawithcarl 2 days ago 2 replies      
Each time the Cruise starts from a stop light, it's too slow.

Every time ... cars pass it, and dive into its lane (a typical reaction to slow moving vehicles).

Still, nice accomplishment.

bearlow 2 days ago 0 replies      
This looks very amateurish, no roundabouts, no give-way intersection. It's really easy to stop at red lights or where then car in front of you breaks and it emits another red light: if ( light == red) stop() ....
ilaksh 2 days ago 0 replies      
This video was posted quite awhile ago. Are we sure its not just Nvidia's reference app configured by the Cruise people? Most of this stuff was in the Tesla and other Nvidia Drive demos.
bsaul 2 days ago 3 replies      
Now that tesla has started to pretend selling autonomous cars now is making sense, the field went from research ( where researcher honestly reports shortcomings themselves) to the horrendous world of SV start up, where everything should be considered a lie until the day someone can actually buy the stuff and test for himself.

And so you end up with posts like this trying to analyse a video frame by frame to assess the reality of the technology, and yet everyone including the author tries to guess where's the catch ( is the green light really trustworthy ? Why is the video accelerated ? Etc..).

Groxx 2 days ago 0 replies      
5-10 years still seems roughly accurate or optimistic. A tech demo does not a consumer-purchasable licensed product make.
arnonejoe 1 day ago 0 replies      
Would be more impressed with a drive from Lombard and Van Ness to Telegraph Hill.
0898 2 days ago 0 replies      
Anybody else think this was about scientology for a moment?
erikb 1 day ago 0 replies      
What is a level four skill?
EGreg 1 day ago 0 replies      
What I'd liks to see with level 4 is millions of miles driven by a car with a SOFT outer shell. That way collisions don't hurt other cars or even pedestrians. Make the car's top entirely out of foam or something, when driving without a driver.
Apocryphon 2 days ago 0 replies      
Good news for Lyft?
Massive networks of fake accounts found on Twitter bbc.com
388 points by randomname2  3 days ago   255 comments top 48
jashkenas 3 days ago 17 replies      
I would imagine that it's possible that some of the people reading these comments might already know a lot more detail about Twitter/Facebook bots than this story goes into.

Although you fine folks might remember me from a few other projects, I'm currently a Graphics Editor at The New York Times. We're actively curious and interested in pursuing lines of inquiry about this sort of behavior, and if any HN'ers have any interesting leads or tips, I'd encourage you to get in touch. You can reach me at my username @nytimes.com, or email me and I'll send you my Signal number.

nostrademons 3 days ago 1 reply      
No kidding.

I remember when I first moved to the Bay Area in 2009, I met a smart guy at a startup meetup, a serial entrepreneur with a previous exit. I asked him what he was working on, and he said "Oh, I've been writing a Twitter bot that will follow people of your choosing, engage them in simple conversation, and retweet their tweets. It's building a network of followers - I don't know yet what I'd do with that, but it's an asset that's likely valuable to somebody." I ran into him again a few weeks later, and he'd sold the company.

I think I'd heard from either him or someone here on Hacker News, around that time, that 75% of Twitter traffic was bots and automated accounts. Note that that was early 2009, before Twitter went mainstream and when they still had a really easy-to-use developer API.

OliverJones 3 days ago 9 replies      

The landline telephone business has, for a long time now, been compromised by spammers and bots (telemarketing calls and robocalls). I canceled my land line about four years ago after going for three months without receiving a single call I wanted.

It seems the commercial social networks are headed for the same fate. And, they're headed for hardnosed and unpleasant regulation by governments. They probably need to clean up their acts.

danso 3 days ago 6 replies      
This seems like a pretty straightforward thing to identify. I remember when the NYT's story, "The Agency", was published [0], some of the fake accounts it had mentioned were still up. Even though the accounts in that story were actually populated by real people, the sockpuppetry was pretty easy to identify. One: the accounts' past tweets right up until they started spreading the news about the fake U.S. disaster were in Russian. Two, all of the tweets of the fake news had almost exactly the same number of favorites and retweets (around 300), and you could see that everyone in that cluster was just retweeting each other.

I'm more fascinated by the spam by Facebook accounts. These show up all the time in relatively popular comment sections, and yet apparently FB doesn't care, or the problem is trickier to automatically flag. For example, this comment [1] is clearly spam...but if you click through to the account, it seems to be a real person [1], with a normal-seemingly friend network, mundane photos of life that aren't obviously stock photography. There are a few junk comments (a bunch of "hi's", but as an outsider, this is what makes FB a lot trickier to analyze, because you don't know how much privacy that user has enabled on their own account.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html

[1] http://imgur.com/a/Rr8d3

[2] https://www.facebook.com/gulfam.raj

KirinDave 3 days ago 3 replies      
I'm just amazed at this entire series of threads. "Gosh, who knew violating social network ToS by proxy and creating massive false consensus networks was so easy?"

Everyone. Everyone should know.

We're watching this terrible trend rip apart the entire social proposition of the internet after spending 2 decades trying and finally achieving buy in. And here y'all are, hopefulls for a digital economy cheerfully defrauding the very networks that will probably bet the monetization strategy for many startups that pass through HN's doors.

The total lack of any personal responsibility here, or notion of consequence... It stuns me.

tristanj 3 days ago 1 reply      
In their recent SEC filings, Twitter estimates around 5% of the MAUs are spammers or bots. They also estimate they have 317 million MAUs, which when you work it out gives around 16.7 million monthly spammers or bots.

Numbers come from their 2016 Q3 filinghttps://investor.twitterinc.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=15645...

ChuckMcM 3 days ago 2 replies      
The question this sort of thing leaves me with is "Why does {Twitter/Facebook/Google} permit this? What are they getting out of it?"

Its pretty clear what the bot guys get out of it, pay to promote services, pay for followers, etc. They can monetize "fame" through the robotic horde. But as this article and ones before it point out, these networks are generally quite easy to spot. So why not take them out?

It probably isn't because they can pad 'subscriber growth' or 'MAU' numbers, they appear to be only small components of that number. And while I could imagine it may be hard to purge them at the moment, its been a problem long enough that someone in engineering must have figured out a system for taking down large numbers of accounts.

The only thing I can come up with, and it is way too tin-hattish to really count, is that it creates an "observable" for the underside of the Internet. By watching what people are asking the twitter bots to do you can observe other objectives that are perhaps less observable. There are some obvious customers for that but I don't think they actually pay for that (except perhaps by buying access to the Firehose)

mtgx 3 days ago 0 replies      
I think this story is getting more coverage than the one from a few months ago that showed that, for instance, both Clinton and Trump had millions of fake accounts following them:

> Per eZanga, 4.3 millionor 39 percentof Trump's more than 11 million Twitter followers as of August came from fake accounts while the other 6.7 million are actually real users. And for Clinton, 3.1 millionor 37 percentof her more than 8 million followers were fake while 5.3 million come from real accounts.


350,000 is about 0.1% of Twitter's user base. Does anyone here think the number of fake accounts isn't orders of magnitude higher than that?

ohnotthatguy 3 days ago 1 reply      
Anyone on twitter could've told you that. When you're followed by "@hotttladie3" & "hotttladie453892", it's only reasonable to assume there is also an @hotttladie4 through @hotttladie452891.

The problem with having a user reporting based plan for acting against fake accounts in an environment where the psychological motivations of using the service, if not to disseminate news, or maintain a closet standup comedian habit, is affirmation. In almost every motivation for using the service, the user has an incentive to keep their numbers up, whether they are real or not. A huge part of the game is the number of followers.

Personally I'm just surprised that they've moved from advertising cam sites (which could conceivably act as a secondary, almost passive income) to quoting star wars novels while inflating numbers for people who pay for followers. That's the aspect that confuses me, and makes me feel vulnerable.

sjs382 3 days ago 3 replies      
There was a "Ask HN:" post about Twitter bots the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13497235

Strange that these bots aren't spammy but are posting every minute or two. I wonder what they're for...




Zikes 3 days ago 1 reply      
> A Twitter spokesman said the social network had clear policy on automation that was "strictly enforced".

> Users were barred from writing programs that automatically followed or unfollowed accounts or which "favourited" tweets in bulk, he said.

I am constantly getting followed by accounts with tens or hundreds of thousands of follows and followers, usually checkmarked accounts though I've never heard of them. It's painfully obvious these verified users are using bots to randomly follow people, both to spam my inbox with "you have a new follower" messages and to encourage people to "follow back".

But Twitter does nothing about it. It's not "strictly enforced" at all.

chubot 3 days ago 0 replies      
This has become obvious to me after getting a few blog posts at the top of HN.

I just search for my domain on Twitter, and there are dozens of "people" who do nothing but retweet hacker news articles. They are presumably doing this for some kind of "reverse" reputation.

I'm interested if anyone has any more insight on this phenomenon. Maybe it's as simple as convincing some naive users to follow them with links vetted as high quality.


https://twitter.com/bartezzini (123K tweets, nothing but HN-type links and comments)

https://twitter.com/EggmanOrWalrus (15.7k tweets, ditto)


BugsJustFindMe 3 days ago 1 reply      
UCL has dropped the ball on marketing itself.If this had been a student at MIT or Harvard, the article headline would have started with "MIT/Harvard Researcher ..." instead of burying the school's name in tiny print in the middle of the article.
dgfgfdagasdfgfa 3 days ago 2 replies      
Bot accounts, not fake accounts. I don't even know what the latter meansplenty of people don't associate twitter with their real name. And why would you!

Secondly, of course there are this many. There are probably many more. I run several bots myself; there's nothing wrong with this.

Twitter's TOS is only as good as its enforcement, and if there's anything twitter is terrible at, it's having any control over its community.

sergiotapia 3 days ago 1 reply      
Twitter has become unbearable to use for news. Every single submission from news stations to President Trump is filled with combo-replies from people. 1 dude will bombard the tweet, then a chick, then a different guy.

Example: http://i.imgur.com/zbyM7YG.png

You need to scroll down at least 5 load-more's to see regular people tweets. It's a really terrible user experience that Twitter needs to solve.

dmix 3 days ago 0 replies      
I remember hearing about this radio host who was competing with another host to get more followers. Then over about a week one of his fans who owned a bot net gave him 100k followers. He sent a DM saying "you're welcome, enjoy".

He already had about 250k followers so it wasn't a huge spike in that context but it was interesting to think of the implications of that when you come across a random account with 100k followers and 100 following... they might not be as influential as it seems.

Also this was about a year ago and last I checked his follower account was roughly the same.

Wasn't there a story on HN about a guy who created a fake identity and twitter account with 20k followers and got invited (and paid?) to speak at a tech conference?

dxhdr 3 days ago 0 replies      
Twitter says 5% of their MAUs are bots but this surely an underestimate. Facebook estimates nearly 9% fake users which is also likely too conservative. Bot traffic in ad fraud is even higher (30+%? every study is different, seems difficult to measure).

So we have 5-9% as a lower bound and perhaps we can look at e-mail for an upper bound with nearly 60% spam by volume.

pfarnsworth 3 days ago 0 replies      
Is this really a surprise?

I don't even use Twitter, and I have 4 different Twitter accounts. The amount of fake accounts must be staggering, but there's no way Twitter will cull them otherwise their MAU numbers will tank, and along with it, their ad rates, etc.

debt 3 days ago 1 reply      
This is a great way to spread fake news and get people to see it/engage with it.
ceedan 3 days ago 3 replies      
- messages being posted only from Windows phones

The smoking gun. What real person still has one of those.

Disclaimer: I owned a Nokia Lumia 920 for > 2 years.

monkmartinez 3 days ago 0 replies      
It is trivial to create a BOT type twitter account.

1. Get burner email and phone number

2. Post bot to DO, AWS or run it on a raspi

3. ???

4. Profit from all those sweet followers.

Many of them look entirely "real" or they can be hilariously obvious. I would bet it is happening on Facebook, Instagram, Snap and any other social network where "value" is derived from followers/eyeballs.

avip 3 days ago 0 replies      
The only surprising detail here is the small number mentioned (350K).

Twitter fake accounts are expected to be counted in MMs.

clarkenheim 3 days ago 0 replies      
if youve not read it already, here is an excellent interview with Andrs Seplveda who has helped to "rig elections throughout Latin America for almost a decade" partly through using twitter bots and similar techniques. https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-how-to-hack-an-elect...
stevesearer 3 days ago 0 replies      
Anecdotally I've seen a huge uptick in spam/bots following my main account on Twitter since the beginning of the year. Probably 50%+ of my new followers have been accounts with no profile picture, no tweets, and close to zero followers.
pluma 2 days ago 0 replies      
Everybody talks about bots but let's not forget that there are plenty of bot-like accounts controlled by humans from poor countries for (fractions of) pennies. You don't need a "hacker army", just a couple of bucks and a third-world nation with good enough infrastructure. Look up "click farms".

The problem with this is that while bots can be detected (even if doing so is an arms race) it's much harder to detect "bot" humans.

throwaway112991 3 days ago 0 replies      
this is relevant is as well:https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hitwe.andr...tldr:'HitWe' it's a tinder-like dating app with 10M+ installs on google play (haven't checked itunes).i came across it by browsing dating apps for fun.most of the bad reviews (1-2 stars) are from people who claim it's 95% fake profiles etc. many claim that women there just ask for their email etc. some even claim to have paid some of the women which have then disappeared (but that's being too naive, IMO. never pay someone you have never met.. ).there are many many good reviews, but most are only with 5 stars and without any text (which, to me, is another red flag).

anyway - the most interesting part here is that they actually managed to fool google, up until this very moment!google recommended me to view their app.. spam does work !

ps - googling (ironic, i know) 'hitwe app scam' showed me this on the first result:http://www.datingbusters.com/hitwe-com-exposed-for-fake-prof...

i am interested in a response from one of google play's spam engineers/managers ..

edit: spelling

edit2: it took me 0.5 secs to start sensing that it's a fake-boosted app. a human reviewer at google could have just scanned the top 100x dating apps in a single day and map out the fake apps. what do you think?

failrate 3 days ago 0 replies      
Oh, it's a lot more than 350k.
saycheese 3 days ago 0 replies      
Related research paper, "The 'Star Wars' botnet with >350k Twitter bots":


And another paper covering the topic:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13445295

rch 3 days ago 1 reply      
Spam was a serious and growing problem before the major providers got serious about filtering. For now I just report clickbait feeds as spam and hope for the best.
mtkd 3 days ago 0 replies      
in '08 or '09 I met a guy who was creating 100s or more accounts and paying an overseas outsourcing company to curate longterm timelines properly (so not just spam)

he genuinely didn't know why he was doing it at the time (he'd been heavily involved in gaming Google rankings previously for credit card companies) and it was at significant cost - but he was completely sure at some point it would be useful

JohnTHaller 3 days ago 0 replies      
I thought everybody knew that a big chunk of Twitter works this way. I got to see it in action just a couple weeks ago with a pro-Trump network of fake Twitter accounts. I had the misfortune of having one of those @TrumpRulesMAGA4Eva style Twitter accounts reply to something I'd written with a standard pro-Trump meme. A couple people liked and favorited within an hour or so and then nothing. Then late on a Saturday night several days later, a whole network of Twitter accounts favorited and retweeted it. Most of them had similar style names but some had generic ones or random character strings. About half had an egg profile picture. Many of the others had tried to look legitimate with real names and pictures of people but tineye reverse searches showed 10,000+ hits on the images. Looking at the histories of the accounts, they'd all been used similarly for months.
chrisvogt 3 days ago 0 replies      
I get follows from obvious bots (bio: "click here for 5000 follows") very regularly on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Instagram almost always removes the account, Facebook has always responded the account "doesn't violate the rules", and Twitter I'm not sure about, but I always block and report that garbage.
eriknstr 2 days ago 0 replies      
SoundCloud is full of fake accounts. I get a couple of new followers every now and then and it feels like 95% of them have mentions of "buy followers". I always report spam bots whenever I spot them on SoundCloud, Tinder, Facebook and Reddit, so though I only have very few followers on SC I think all of them are real people at least. It is very important to always report spam bots and other types of disruptive fake accounts and I wish that everyone did. If everyone did then it would be less profitable to run such accounts and then there would be fewer of them and we would be bothered much less frequently.
dbrian82 10 hours ago 0 replies      
hi,i'm Brian, i had my friend help me hack my ex's email, facebook, whatsapp,and his phone cause i suspected he was cheating. all he asked for was a his phone number. he's email is (hotcyberlord425@gmail.com)..IF u need help tell him Brian referred you to him and he'll help. Am sure his going to help you do it, good luck
alphydan 2 days ago 0 replies      
In a time where bots and AI are all the rage, it begs the question: Are some bots on twitter more useful and insightful than actual people?

I remember a twitter bot (name escames me now) which would crawl pastebin and tweet updates when passwords / DBs were leaked. It had lots of followers (security researchers who found it very useful).

Most humans on twitter are boring and waste people's time with youtube style comments. Most bots are spammy and waste time too. Why not allow both and let people decide who they follow/ban?

jimnotgym 3 days ago 1 reply      
I found it interesting that a Member of parliament on twitter had hundreds of obvious bot followers. I presumed he was buying 'popularity'. Maybe more sinister. Lots of them very recent
ensiferum 2 days ago 0 replies      
Standard stuff, you want media attention for your blog, twitter whatever? You'll need to have a bot army to upvote your own stuff, relink and like your content.

Having a botnet is now an essential part of building your social media following.

thomasthomas 3 days ago 0 replies      
MAUs affect their stock price. MAUs are in their 10k IIRC, does the SEC look into this? i'm not sure.
gesman 3 days ago 0 replies      
There is a whole industry of buying and selling social media "followers".

So I guess this is a product of this.

EJTH 3 days ago 0 replies      
I thought this was obious to everyone with a twitter account? I get random bot follows all the time.
campuscodi 3 days ago 2 replies      
On the same topic. I think he might have discovered the same botnet. http://sadbottrue.com/article/51/
ggggtez 3 days ago 0 replies      
For everything people dislike about curation, you avoid these syble attacks
elastic_church 2 days ago 0 replies      
my bots would never be caught up in these criteria. they've been using NLP for years
EJTH 3 days ago 1 reply      
Meanwhile Twitter banned yet another political youtuber @SargonOfAkkad, doesn't seem like he did anything against Twitters ToS. Fed up with Twatter to be honest.
bikamonki 3 days ago 0 replies      
Twitter is broken. No news here.
econner 3 days ago 0 replies      
350,000 accounts is not a "massive network". This is all hype.
Masaya Nakamura, Japanese arcade pioneer, has died bloomberg.com
344 points by jrwan  12 hours ago   79 comments top 12
kodfodrasz 11 hours ago 1 reply      
I played it a lot as a kid, and only recently learned how complex the ghost behaviours were (compared to what I beleived about them):


baldfat 12 hours ago 2 replies      
I still loved the fact that I was a kid who played in a bowling league and the arcade was always mind blowing. First mind blowing games were Asteroids and Space Invaders for me. Those games were a ton better then the other games. Then Pac Man and Donky Kong took it to a whole new level. It was a magical time and nothing at home could match it. Personally I liked Mrs. Pac-Man more.
nodja 12 hours ago 4 replies      
Toru Iwatani made make pac-man. Masaya Nakamura is the founder of namco. Why am I seeing a blatant wrong headline all over the news?
artofcode 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Please note that this is not Toru Iwatani, who designed Pac Man.
protomyth 11 hours ago 1 reply      
I remember the local Team Electronics used the Pac-Man on the Atari 8-bit computers (400/800) to show how much better it was than the Atari 2600.

I will remember Pac-Man as a game I put way too much time into. I will remember it fondly along side Wizard of Wor, Time Pilot, Mr. Do, and Sinistar.

Beltiras 12 hours ago 11 replies      
Is the golden age of arcade gaming over? I can't remember going into an arcade psyched about playing any game. It's all dance pads, racing games and FPS. Frogger, Pac-man, Gauntlet, Tetris, Mortal Kombat, Warlock, those were exciting games. Maybe it's just the gramps in me yelling about the kids on my lawn.
typetypetype 11 hours ago 1 reply      
There is definitely something to be said for the time when video games were created by small teams of people instead of being huge blockbuster efforts.
duderific 5 hours ago 0 replies      
I remember getting a little handbook that had all the "patterns" you could learn to evade the ghosts. One of the top days of my youth was when I "turned over" Pac-Man by topping 1,000,000 points, I think I was on the seventh key (the little symbols that you could eat would progress through a series, ending with the key symbol which would then repeat ad infinitum).

People would gather around the game console if you were really on a roll, craning their necks to get a look...good times, good times.

coleifer 11 hours ago 0 replies      
He can finally realize his dream of being a ghost chasing Pac-Man.
sizzzzlerz 9 hours ago 1 reply      
Game over <wa-wa-wa-wa-waaaaaa>
ageofwant 11 hours ago 1 reply      
I understand the Inuit have many words that translate into English as 'snow', same for Aramaic languages and 'sand'. So it stands to some reason that those cultures have a deeper understanding of those things even if they just simply assigned shorter symbols to things that can be described in any other language "soft snow", "sand that drifts and collects behind bigger stones", and so on. But because these symbols exist they can be natively manipulated and reasoned about.

Hayao Miyazaki's work could not be replicated by an American and the same for Masaya Nakamura. Maybe another from the same culture that comes with it's unique cognitive patterns and world views. We should value our differences, it benefits us all in curious and unexpected ways.

       cached 31 January 2017 03:11:02 GMT