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Nexus 6
1004 points by myko  3 days ago   677 comments top 110
computerjunkie 3 days ago 35 replies      
5.96 - A phone just under 6". This is possibly the biggest disappointment about the phone. Its simply too large for the average user. The nexus 5 was already quite difficult to reach the top corners with one hand in my opinion with its 4.95.

you get over 24 hours of use from a full charge. - too many times I have heard this phrase from other smartphone manufacturers and its never true. Since this phone is made by Motorola(which I think is a great company that builds good products)there is hope but that screen is going to be a battery drainer. Motorola had their [0] Motorola Droid Maxx which held a 3,500mAh battery and its at least kind of true for that statement above.

If they had put the 3220 mAh battery (or larger) in a 4.7" - 4.9" phone, I would gladly pay for that. Why can't smartphone manufacturers understand that a longer battery life is whats lacking in mobile devices?

All the goodie features like Google Now and other location hungry services completely drain your battery in a short time. All I want is a smartphone that can last for at least one day on one charge.

Lastly the price. The nexus line is known for the competitive price/performance being greatly competitive. If this phone asks for more than 350, does it really have the nexus characteristics anymore?

I hope there will be android phones still produced with 5" or less screen size in the next 4 years. A significant portion of the population don't have unimaginably big hands (or pockets) to carry these so called "mobile" phones.

0. http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/16/motorola-droid-maxx-revie...

IkmoIkmo 3 days ago 16 replies      
Can anyone explain to me what the fetish is with pushing the same amount of pixels as a freaking 27 inch display (which, by the way, I've always considered gorgeous)?

I mean, does anyone actually notice the difference? Because if that difference means I'm paying $100-200 extra for a better screen, a better graphics chip etc, and it means my battery life is reduced, I really just don't get it.

I elaborated a bit on this question here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8459761

Anyway... my biggest gripe is really price point. The Nexus 4, 5, 7 weren't any more interesting than devices coming out from Samsung or HTC. What made them unique was a sick performance/price ratio, the best mid-level entry device range for people who aren't interested in $500 a year fees for their phone+plan, yet like running the latest android on a nice device.

Now we seem to get another high-range flagship-type phone and tablet. I kinda get it, you want a benchmark device and you've got moto filling the lower-mid range quite nicely, but I really wish they'd have kept the Nexus series below the $500 range.

Love the thickness by the way. 10mm or so is great. Not a thick slab, but it's got some real grip to it. iPhone 6's thickness really sucks for me. (although it's a slightly different story when you add a case, I did like the thickness of the iphone 6 with a case when I tried it)

benmorris 3 days ago 7 replies      
I bought the Nexus 5 as soon as it was released and have really liked it, however, I'm not sure I'll be buying this one. The biggest issue I have is the screen size. I just think 6" is over my threshold. At $649 I can basically buy any other phone off contract. One of the original appeals of the Nexus 5 was the low price.

No wireless charging either? Not a dealbreaker, but I did use it on my 5.

codezero 3 days ago 4 replies      
Very nice that all the physical buttons are on one side and also in the middle of the phone. The biggest gripe I have with the iPhone 6 Plus is that every time I try to lock it, I turn up the volume, and vice versa. The buttons are also way too high on the device.

Not that it's particularly important, but the Nexus 6 was the model of the androids in Blade Runner, but I'm not sure if this phone is "more human than human." :)

metabrew 3 days ago 8 replies      
I've bought every nexus phone when they were released, but I'm not sure about this one. The nexus 5 is already a bit oversized IMO. This thing is ridiculous.
vijayboyapati 3 days ago 2 replies      
I've owned an EVO, a Note 2 and a Nexus 5. The form factors being small, large and medium-to-large, respectively. I went from small to large, and while I thought the Note 2 had fantastic specs, it was too unwieldy for me and I decided to downsize to the Nexus 5. I still find the Nexus 5 a bit unwieldy with one handed use, but it's at least possible. Which brings me to my current conclusion: I want a smaller phone which doesn't give up too much in the screen resolution. Which brings me to my question: What makes ideal specs for you? Here's what I want, but cannot seem to find (something is always missing):

* Size: 4.9" screen

* Resolution: 1080p (it's really hard to find any phones this size with this resolution, which is disappointing because the PPI is possible, especially given the quad HD resolutions being slapped on phones now).

* SD expansion slot: One thing I really liked about the Note 2 that the Nexus phones don't have. I could upgrade with a 64G SD card which didn't cost much. 32G can fill up pretty quickly with videos and photos and it's annoying Google has a philosophy which shuns SD cards.

* Battery: At least 2600mAmp (should last at least one day).

* Stock android: No bloatware and no touch-wiz. This isn't as important as the other considerations though.

* CPU: This doesn't matter too much to me. 99% of what I do doesn't need a latest generation processor

* Memory: 2G is fine. Memory again isn't the main thing that's bothering me about the current android offerings.

What really bothers me is no-one is catering to this market segment and the trend is increasingly into the phablet market.

untog 3 days ago 2 replies      
I had a Nexus 5, but I bought a Sony Z3 Compact a few weeks ago, and I don't regret doing so. This phone is simply too big.

For anyone interested, I would highly recommend the Z3C. It's a fantastic phone and a really great size.

chdir 3 days ago 2 replies      
The trend of correlating device number (i.e. Nexus 'X') with screen size is going in the wrong direction. 6 is already too big (and heavy) for some. Next year, there'll be no distinction between phones & tablets.

Edit: Disappointed with the pricing too: $649. Google had set a good trend with Nexus series - Awesome devices at exception price. All that's gone. Kind of against the Android One initiative.

omnibrain 3 days ago 3 replies      
So apparently there is no 7" tablet anymore. I think that makes sense, since the 7" tablets get cannibalized by the ever growing smartphones. After I bought a Nexus 7 I started to carry it around all the time. I used my Galaxy Nexus less and less (only for calls and whatsapp) so after a short time (when the Galaxy Nexus started to show its age) I decided I can live with an even smaller (and not so flexible) phone and bought an 5s. Now, with the Nexus 6 I may be able to retire both and get back to only carrying one device with me.
ChuckMcM 3 days ago 1 reply      
Fascinating arguments about size. It isn't the only phone on the market, so the size question is resolved by market acceptance. Granted there are confounding factors, Lollipop vs Android 4.x, cost, availability. But in general larger screens seem to sell well (compare the iPhone 6+ backlog to the iPhone 6 for example [1]). I get that this might not be a "good" thing for some people, but it is pointless to argue that Apple or Google should take less money by selling phones the market doesn't want (a strategy which is being employed by RIM at the moment)

[1] http://9to5mac.com/2014/09/12/iphone-6-and-6-plus-already-se...

pisarzp 3 days ago 2 replies      
Many people here complain that phone is too big without ever using phablet. I was in this camp too until I started to use N6. I was testing this phone for last couple months. It's an amazing device, and even though sometimes it does feel big, on day to day basis it was never an issue for me. Consuming any type of content was much easier and more pleasurable. I noticed the difference especially when I sometimes moved back to Nexus 5 which I thought was perfect size. Well, it turns out I changed my mind now:)

If you can, try to use phablet at least for 1-2 days before discarding it.

One thing that might have helped is that I'm also using a smartwatch now and I take out my phone less frequently, but I don't think this change anything much.

bcohen5055 3 days ago 6 replies      
Can anyone confirm what is driving this larger screen war? I know when LTE was rolling out manufacturers needed space for larger batteries but couldn't make the phones thicker due to market backlash so bigger screens began to trend. Now I can't help but think it is completely consumer driven but if that is so what are the larger screens enabling users to do? Is it the resolution? The multitasking? This just doesn't look like a valuable tradeoff for less portability and 1 handed use.
PhrosTT 3 days ago 5 replies      
The fact that this has a thunderbolt resolution display shows how lame it is most desktops haven't adopted 4k yet.
cryptoz 3 days ago 1 reply      
Yes! Google continues to add barometers to phones!

Although, it's disappointing that the Nexus 9 does not also include a barometer. I suppose they've decided that the use case for fast GPS and altitude works better in a phone than a tablet - that, or, since the 9 is built by HTC it would be their first time adding one. Oddly, though, Motorola put its first barometer in a tablet (the Xoom) before they tried any phones.

gregwebs 3 days ago 1 reply      
> front-facing speakers

Great! This is why I bought an HTC One M8 instead of a Nexus 5. Great for speakerphone or if you do watch a video on that high resolution display.

It amazes me how the essentials get sacrificed really easily and that consumers often don't demand better when they are purchasing. I would buy a Mac, but I do have to demand a matte screen instead of just getting accustomed to glare.

suprgeek 3 days ago 4 replies      
This thing is a beast in every sense of the word! also with dual front speakers! That can make a huge difference in sound quality.

However it looks like this is heading to $500+ territory so the days of a cheap good Nexus may be coming to an end. Looks like the Moto E etc is filling that niche.

nradov 3 days ago 1 reply      
Does it have a removable battery or is it another sealed device? That's not clear from the web page.Everything else looks great about this device but if it lacks a swappable battery then that's a deal breaker for me and I'll have to get a Samsung Note 4 instead. Even a 3220 mAh battery is insufficient and external battery packs are just too much hassle to deal with.
wodenokoto 3 days ago 1 reply      
I'm visiting Japan, but I don't read Japanese. When I visit this site everything is in Japanese without any button to change local.

Apple and Ikea will redirect you to a url with country code in it (ikea.com/ja/en/bedroom kind of style) making it easy for people on the tech savvy side to manually change locale. But Google? No way in hell am I allowed to read this in English if I'm not physically in an English speaking country.

Coding_Cat 3 days ago 2 replies      
>With a large 3220 mAh battery, you get over 24 hours of use from a full charge.

I would hope so, call me old-fashioned but I would say that once a day is the absolute limit on how many times I'd accept having to charge my phone.

Of course, you don't use your phone 24 hours in a day (at least I hope you don't) however, marketing being what it is they generally mean "very very light usage" when they quote battery-life.

paulannesley 3 days ago 3 replies      
iPhone 6 Plus: 5.5" 19201080 (401 ppi)

Nexus 6: 5.96" 25601440 (493 ppi)

The iPhone 6 Plus is comically enormous. This thing is ridiculous. And the same resolution as the current 27" Apple displays.

2.7 GHz quad core vs iPhone's 1.4 GHz dual core (but 32-bit, vs Apple's 64-bit).

That is some serious hardware.

jordanpg 3 days ago 6 replies      
I see an important question looming on the 5-year horizon: how are people going to be carrying these large devices? Clearly carrying large phones in pockets is impossible for many, increasingly impractical for many more, and simply undesirable to the curious.

Will handbags or hip bags become common for all? Will the average size of phones rebound and approach some smaller-screen equilibrium size near 5"?

Everything depends on the adoption of these devices by younger people -- whatever becomes "cool".

My prediction is that phones will become strapped to arms or shirts somehow. I see some sort of arm-hoslter or dedicated shirt pocket that comfortably, securely houses a mini-tablet.

munchor 3 days ago 3 replies      
Everything about it looks great except for the 6'' screen. I understand the appeal of big screens, but 6'' is just too much.
darklajid 2 days ago 0 replies      
As ~always~ with Google sites my Accept-Language header [1] is ignored and I end up being redirected to a different, 'more suitable' site. But yeah, those people can talk about SPDY and HTTP/2 and new standards all day long I guess. I'm sure that makes sense..

1: en-US,en;q=0.5

pshinghal 3 days ago 1 reply      
I don't see how a 6" phone is convenient at all. I can only assume that the reason major brands are making oversized phones is because there hasn't been enough technical innovation in the past year to create an adequately exciting "update" to an existing phone (the Nexus 5, for example).Is this the case, or am I missing something?
pierrec 3 days ago 1 reply      
Slightly off topic, but is it just me or does this page brutally ignore your browser's language settings? (as well as those of your google account.)

Apparently it guesses a language based on your IP address and serves you an inappropriately localized version. Kind of a noob-ish mistake to make for such a campaign. Too bad for you if you're abroad! There's a language drop-down in the "help" section, but it's not stored in the session and it's completely ignored by the other pages. So you simply cannot view the landing page in your own language!

jasonkester 3 days ago 2 replies      
Anybody found a way to force it to display in English? I'm in France at the moment so I can't even read the text on the site. None of the usual tricks (?hl=en, etc.) work. No links on the site to change language or redirect.

Seems silly to have to VPN into a box in the US just to read a website.

zkar 3 days ago 0 replies      
Nano Sim. Do they really need the space saving from micro to nano? Prepaid carriers charge extra for nano sim. Not sure if it is because it is more expensive to manufacture. Requires more delicate handling for those who swap sims which is more common in Asia.
sytelus 2 days ago 2 replies      
After long back and forth I ended up buying iPhone 6 over Nexus 5. So the news of Nexus 6 was exciting but it still seems bit behind on hardware front:

* No 128GB memory option. This is absolutely important for me and it seems Apple is the only one of few company who gets this. I started running out of 64 GB long time ago.

* No TouchID equivalent which is excellent and works flowlessly on iPhones.

* No slow-mo videos at 200+ frames per second.

* From hardware perspective N6 still stuck in 32-bit world. Plus it lacks motion processor that monitors my movements and fitness data all the time without draining batteries.

* 8MP camera is actually better than 12MP and gives better low light performance. Higher MP is actually deal breaking for me (if sensor size remains same).

* At 10mm thickness, that's actually going backwards from 7mm for iPhone 6. Every mm of thickness adds perception of "hugeness" dramatically.

crucialfelix 3 days ago 2 replies      
Ah, but the Nexus 6 only has a 4 year lifespan. Then .. time to die.

I thought that Google decided not to release a phone named Nexus-6 out of deference to Blade Runner and Phillip K Dick's family who were annoyed that they used the name.

smackfu 3 days ago 1 reply      
How do you announce a phone without a price? That is always a terrible idea.

Edit: I guess it's $649.

bicx 3 days ago 1 reply      
I'm thinking the real deal-breaker for me will be the camera, which seems to be the same as the mediocre Moto X camera. Otherwise, it looks like a nice device. Nothing particularly amazing, except for stock Lollipop.
primo37 3 days ago 1 reply      
"Nexus 6 will be available for pre-order through the Google Play Store in late October starting at $649."

This is from Motorola http://motorola-blog.blogspot.fr/2014/10/nexus-6-from-google...

joliss 3 days ago 1 reply      
Full specs: https://i.imgur.com/S0ifg2B.png

Of note: Nano SIM, 493 ppi display, 4K video recording.

(The specs on the Google page have a button to expand them. It's a bit hidden and not linkable, hence the screenshot.)

nstart 2 days ago 0 replies      
Like many others here, I agree on the screen size issue. I'm actually at a bit of a loss as to what phone to use next. I want something that's future proof for several versions of Android, runs smoothly, runs vanilla android by default, and doesn't exceed the screen size of the galaxy nexus (the one that's currently stuck without a stable upgrade to kit kat due to firmware issues), and has a great resolution. I'd gladly pay good money for a device like that.
51Cards 3 days ago 1 reply      
Sadly this will bring the Nexus buying streak for me to an end. 6" is too large... the price is too high. Too bad though, that battery and camera would have been nice. I think the Nexus 5 will hold for another year.
diltonm 3 days ago 0 replies      
It seems like we just got the Nexus 5, the Nexus One is still fun to pull out and mess with. The One was the perfect size. I'm not even sure the 6 would fit in my pants pocket? Seems like it would jab into my groin when driving. Storage isn't even listed or Chrome's Ctrl+F can't find it? Does it have external storage or expandable storage? The 5 messed this up.
dferlemann 3 days ago 0 replies      
Feel more like marketing data collecting, to see how size the phone relates the sales... I'm interested to know the result. Personally, it's definitely too big.
AlyssaRowan 2 days ago 1 reply      
Well, I want to see it, and hold it, but I fear the size is probably too big for my small hands, and I know the price is too big. The battery being big is nice, but with a screen that size I don't believe the battery life claims until I see independent reviews.

Given that the battery isn't removable too, this makes for a very shitty development phone. (What do we do if it freezes? How do we hard-remove power?) I think this won't do.

I'm also rather disappointed this isn't the Snapdragon 810 or 808. For a phone this expensive, it doesn't measure up.

Overall this is not what I hoped for from a new Nexus. Perhaps Android Silver will deliver something better, but I doubt the Nexus 6 will be my next phone.

q2 3 days ago 0 replies      
Without going into specifics, Apple's event(whatever they reveal) is scheduled for tomorrow and so today is Google's day.

Today, some startup/enterprise somewhere in the valley may be making final touches to a press release on some bad/shocking news such as layoffs...etc tomorrow so that little attention will be paid to that, since most tech press may be glued to Apple's event.

Life repeats on and on as before.

icelancer 3 days ago 1 reply      
The Nexus 6 not having a high-speed camera sensor is really disappointing. I was hoping Apple and Google would eventually break down the high-speed / slow-motion camera market, because industrial applications cost well into the multiple thousands of dollars for cameras not much better than the iPhone 6 with the only exception being that it is PC-controlled via software.


cooperpellaton 3 days ago 0 replies      
I find this an interesting departure by the trend which has been set by the previous phones in the Nexus program. Prior phones followed an average lower price that what is most likely to be seen here. Given that the Nexus program has stood as the pinnacle of the Android environment more so than just simply being "reference" hardware it does seem logical to me that Google would want to escalate the quality and produce a true flagship. That being said, this is also atypical and as much as it plays into the trend of higher quality for the entire ecosystem, it also undermines their tenant of simply finding hardware which promotes the qualities that the OS does. In the end it is most likely I will still buy the phone, but still, on morals, I dislike the anticipated pricing.
pjg 3 days ago 1 reply      
What will the screen resolution default to ? The resolution mentioned i.e. 25601440 (493 ppi) is too high for human eye to decipher on 6" frame. MacBook Pro's with retina displays have 2560x1440 resolution available however the highest viewable is 1920x1200 (unless you use 3rd party software like SwitchresX to override the maximum )
fataliss 3 days ago 0 replies      
I don't see any details on the body anywhere. I'm assuming the sides are in aluminium, but what about the back? I always hated the cheap android phone for their glossy cheap plastic feel. (Also the reason why I can't stand any case on my iPhone) But with a price point around 650$ I'm expecting some more premium feel.
dmix 3 days ago 3 replies      
Was the Nexus 5 refreshed at all? I can't tell by the website.
hit8run 3 days ago 0 replies      
Anyone remember the HP Veer?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Veer

This phone was advertised for beeing as small as a credit card. Now Nexus 6 is as tall as a whole opened wallet.

timetraveller 2 days ago 0 replies      
What is this obsession with having to use the phone with one hand? I have big hands and even with iPhone4/Nexus One I found myself using two hands to get things done more quickly.
4k 3 days ago 2 replies      
Why the storage on all high end phones is stuck at 64gb? I honestly would like to have more storage space.
mladenkovacevic 3 days ago 1 reply      
With the increase in price and out-of-the-gate contract subsidies, the Nexus line has now transitioned from a developer-targeted effort to a full-fledged mass-consumer brand.

Having said that, this transition demands that they compete with the iPhones and Samsungs. Taking that into account they should've released an additional 4.5" phone, along with the 6". This could steal away the people who hesitated in getting the 4.7" iPhone 6 due to the size, and if someone is into getting a humongous 5.5 inch iPhone 6 Plus, they'd be even more into getting a 6" device with not much larger physical dimensions. The goal should be find the perfect two offers to cover the whole spectrum of buyers.

blisterpeanuts 3 days ago 0 replies      
So it's announced, and the price is a surprising $649, nearly double the price of the Nexus 5 ($349). I suspect the Nexus 5 will continue to fill the "budget development" niche.

In fact, now that I've seen the official N6 specs, I'm going to go ahead and order an N5 to replace my Galaxy Nexus because I need a device that does BLE. In a couple of years, perhaps it will be time to upgrade to a refurb N6 or maybe a less expensive N6.5, if they decide to go back to the loss-leader pricing of the older Nexus models.

I'm disappointed that the N6 doesn't come with memory expansion. A MicroSD slot might have tipped the scales for me.

Noughmad 2 days ago 0 replies      
There is a missed opportunity in the tagline. Instead of "More space to explore" it should have said "More space for Activities". Because, you know, the Activity class.
julianpye 3 days ago 2 replies      
What keeps me off buying another Playstore device is Google's terrible customer support, especially before they can command such a premium price. I have an unresponsive Nexus 4. I cannot just send it in for warranty repair. In order to return it, I have to go through a list of steps on their website, then get on a phoneline on which they state I have to wait for 45 minute to get a customer rep. Often the line is interrupted. I haven't been able to get my number for two weeks now.

Eric Schmidt recently said in Germany that Amazon is their biggest competitor. For that to be true, they need to seriously up their support.

davidw 3 days ago 0 replies      
1440x2560 leaves my laptop in the dust. That's insane... I want that kind of resolution for my laptop too!

Seems kind of big for a phone though. This Nexus 4 that I have is about as large a phone as I'd want.

eva1984 3 days ago 1 reply      
This one is huge...And seems like Google didn't upgrade their Nexus 5 model?
laacz 3 days ago 0 replies      
As I see it, there are tree reasons for ridiculous six inches.

1) To fit a larger battery, better screen, more horsepower, better camera with OIS they just have to make them bigger.

2) Nexus line has gone out of control and people instead of buying other phones are queuing up for nexuses which initially were meant to be just reference devices for new android oses. Instead they became so popular that had an impact on sales of other Android devices.

3) They got focus groups or questions all wrong.

gesman 3 days ago 0 replies      
"Available for pre-order starting late october ..."

Sort of like "you can watch this movie as soon as you'll grow up ..."

tgmarks 2 days ago 0 replies      
The screen is a deal breaker for me too. I was super excited for this phone. It's a Moto X with all the stat bumps I really wanted. Sure the camera and battery are the weak points but both better than what I have in my 1st gen Moto X. But I don't want a phablet, so i'm out of luck.
jerkywez 3 days ago 0 replies      
I reckon they should have just gone with HTC for both tablet and phone.. it would have resulted in a much better outcome on the latter.
follower 3 days ago 0 replies      
I remember being mocked when talking on my Treo 180 due to its size when fully open...I find the increased dimensions of new phones amusing in this light.

I'm still looking for a replacement for my Nexus One that matches three criteria: metal case, stock Android, not stupidly large. With the noticeable exception of the tiny amount of app storage the N1 still holds up well for my purposes.

Siecje 3 days ago 5 replies      
> Camera

> 13MP front-facing with optical image stabilization> 2MP rear-facing

Is it really 13MP front-facing? Selfie optimization!

evv 2 days ago 2 replies      
Is RAM not a worthy technical specification to list? I think its pretty critical.

Until somebody corrects me I'll just assume this thing has the 1GB of RAM which is pretty standard these days.. But not enough IMHO

Touche 3 days ago 2 replies      
Going to wait and see the reviews about the camera. The Nexus 5 had the absolute worst camera I've used in a smartphone. It takes 3 or 4 seconds to focus and gets unfocused super easily. I have so many terrible pictures and am embarrassed giving my phone to someone else to take a picture with.
chdir 3 days ago 0 replies      
Dear Google, Please announce a 'Nexus 6 Mini' someday in the near future. Just trim the screen size to a sub 5" level and price to sub $400. Rest all features are welcome. The reduction in battery size proportionately is acceptable.

- Sincerely, A long time Nexus user !

rafaqueque 3 days ago 0 replies      
Being a long time Android user with fairly large screens (+5"), I'm now using an iPhone 5C for three days and I really love its size. I guess that even the iPhone 6 is way too much for me. Around 4", it's the ideal size for me.
JimmaDaRustla 3 days ago 0 replies      
Many people don't realize that the Nexus 6 is not the next iteration in the Nexus line. It is Google's entry into the phablet market.

To me, the follow-up to the Nexus 5 is the Moto X. Decent specs, moderate price, stock Android, etc.

imacomputer2 3 days ago 0 replies      
I'm casting my vote for "Screen Size Too Big!" I can't imagine using a device larger than the Nexus 5. I'll test out similar size phones in stores, but it looks like the size is a deal breaker.
kaahne 3 days ago 2 replies      
If I scroll to the "Introducing Lollipop, our sweetest release yet" section, there's a google now card for a coffee place I've been to recently (in Portland, OR for that matter ...).

It's uncanny...

jusben1369 3 days ago 0 replies      
The pricing is really high. Seems like Google is now no longer interested in forcing great phones out of Samsung/HTC etc. Now that great phones exist they raise the prices and no longer upset the hardware chain.
PankajGhosh 3 days ago 1 reply      
What is the reason for nexus devices to not have fingerprint scanners?
hbhakhra 3 days ago 0 replies      
Looks like they took the design that was widely praised with the Moto X and used it for the Nexus 6. The Nexus 6 looks like just a bigger version of the X (obviously better specs).
dschulz 3 days ago 1 reply      
Using the N5 I already have a problem distinguishing the top from the bottom at a glance. I'm sure with the new design this will be much more than a minor nuisance.
AsakiIssa 3 days ago 0 replies      
Although a bit too big for my liking (still using a Galaxy S2) I wonder if that LCD will be in the next Oculus Rift iteration, having 1280x1440px per eye!
balaclava9 3 days ago 1 reply      
Deckard, I need your magic, I need my old Blade Runner.
piyush_soni 3 days ago 0 replies      
I still have heard no word on whether this will support a Moto X like 'always on listening'. Anyone can comment on that?
joshmn 3 days ago 0 replies      
The one thing I've waited for is the DSP support so I can just say "OK Google" and go instead of having to do a long-press.
PButcher93 3 days ago 0 replies      
Shame they didn't release a new Nexus 7.
BigBlackCamry 3 days ago 0 replies      
$650!!!! for that price, i'll get me two nexus 5.. this way I can talk to myself, never get lonely....
laacz 2 days ago 0 replies      
"4 inches in a smartphone? That's too large!" /Everyone, 2008/
kgarten 3 days ago 1 reply      
great ... I'm in Japan (signed into Google/Gmail in English) and the whole page is in Japanese without any obvious way.Great Job Google ...! (sorry for the rant, my Japanese is not so bad now, still it annoys me ...happens very often with google pages)
chetanahuja 3 days ago 0 replies      
Well I'm not letting one anywhere near me until someone runs the Voight-Kampff test on them.
baby 3 days ago 0 replies      
Anyone knows how I can display this page in english? For some reason it displays in french.
fixedd 3 days ago 0 replies      
Any news yet on whether Verizon is going to fumble it as badly as they did the Galaxy Nexus?
Cakez0r 3 days ago 2 replies      

    Display    5.96 1440 x 2560 display (493 ppi)

nly 3 days ago 1 reply      
This thing has a screen resolution higher than my laptop, and 4x the RAM...
rahilsondhi 3 days ago 0 replies      
For those looking who were looking for a new Android and disappointed by this release, have you considered the Galaxy Alpha? http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_alpha-6573.php
usav 3 days ago 0 replies      
There's a typo in the spec area where they mixed up front and rear cameras
acadien 3 days ago 0 replies      
Does this mean they won't be releasing a new 5" nexus this year?
scope 2 days ago 0 replies      
off topic (i think)

for a "phone" that has 493ppi, you expect the site introducing the phone to be retina ready (couple of images and the favicon)

bonzaipez 1 day ago 0 replies      
Wasn't Nexus 6 the last model of replicants in Blade Runner? Just sayin'...
Datsundere 3 days ago 0 replies      
Looks like buying the one plus one was the smarter choice.
ccozan 3 days ago 0 replies      
ccozan 3 days ago 1 reply      
Finally, a Motorola Nexus! A mighty succesor to the Moto X-es.
piyush_soni 3 days ago 0 replies      
Completely off-topic, but I can't help but notice how posting a new-device link gives you a lot more Karma in one day than I earned in a few years. :)
0x006A 2 days ago 0 replies      
localized version without an option to change the language? really are they smoking crack?
pawelkomarnicki 2 days ago 0 replies      
The price killed it for me :-(
andrewstuart2 3 days ago 0 replies      
Nexus 9 as well.
jeffcaijf 2 days ago 0 replies      
comparing with N5, obviously it's too expensive.
whizzkid 3 days ago 0 replies      
Come on, stop with making bigger and bigger phones.

I do not think, this is how technology should evolve.

chimeracoder 3 days ago 0 replies      
For me, the biggest surprise here is that it will be available on Verizon.

I thought that Verizon and Google parted ways permanently for the Nexus line after Verizon botched the Galaxy Nexus so badly in 2011 - this is the first Nexus available on Verizon since then.

notjustanymike 3 days ago 0 replies      
3220 mAh battery. Wow.
Siecje 3 days ago 1 reply      
No Wireless charging?
72deluxe 3 days ago 1 reply      
Does this have a flash? I can't see one, unless I am being dumb?
ck2 3 days ago 1 reply      
I guess all icons are going to have to be SVG to scale on these new devices, otherwise they are going to be impossible to see.
mohap 3 days ago 2 replies      
that is one thick phone.
BigBlackCamry 3 days ago 0 replies      
for $650, i'll pass...unless nexus 6 can answer my emails for me.
notastartup 3 days ago 0 replies      
i can't fit this phone into my pocket. i guess im gonna wait till nexus 4 or 5 drops in prices and buy that instead.
tatqx 3 days ago 0 replies      
The nexus font is too big on the back of the phone.
sabmd 3 days ago 0 replies      
Whatever version it is. NEWS is best. NORTH OR EAST WORLD IS BEST!!!
GeorgeMac 3 days ago 2 replies      
Another beautiful device and it is only at the cost of your privacy.
ChrisClark 3 days ago 0 replies      
It was a mistake. They updated the page to list the Nexus 4 now too.
Rolling Shutters
705 points by hazz  6 days ago   41 comments top 14
zorpner 6 days ago 3 replies      
Nice! Whenever I see rolling shutter photos on flickr/etc I always think about this old page where a fellow built a long-distance camera from a flatbed scanner to get the effect intentionally: http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/tech/scanner.html

(There's a great image of a garage door opening & closing about 2/3 of the way down the page if you don't feel like reading the whole thing.)

pbnjay 6 days ago 2 replies      
It's a neat analysis from a mathematical perspective, but (especially for a rotating component like this) wouldn't the lighting be all wrong for the remapped pixels? The slow-speed scanning examples use a fixed image (note the highlight doesn't change) so it's likely not usable for real-world digital photography without updates to account for lighting.
britta 6 days ago 1 reply      
Ha, my friend used the same photo as the example for his mathematical analysis of the rolling shutter effect: http://danielwalsh.tumblr.com/post/54400376441/playing-detec...

The questions he investigated: "Can we figure out the rate at which a propellor is spinning by analyzing this kind of photo? And can we figure out the real number of propellor blades in the photo?"

salimmadjd 6 days ago 2 replies      
Sony is making steady advancements in the global shutter with CMOS sensors. A bit harder on DSLRS with larger sensors and more pixels to read but the smaller sensors with smaller megapixels already have them [1]. So it's matter of a time that most CMOS bases videos will be free of rolling shutter, starting with higher-end video cameras that have sensors with just enough pixels to cover 2k-4k videos [2]

[1] http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/new_pro/december_2013/imx...

[2] http://www.newsshooter.com/2014/09/11/io-industries-4k-super...

Fuzzwah 5 days ago 1 reply      
I see this effect happening in skydiving videos quite often.

The rolling shutter is also why stills from gopro videos never quite live up to how clear the videos look in motion.

The cover photo from this month's parachutist magazine is a great example:


Notice the right leg of the jumpsuit, its flapping in the wind as the shutter rolls over the scene.

When people use the slow-mo feature for gopro videos everything kind of morphs rather than moving naturally. I've always found it to be a cool effect:


themgt 5 days ago 0 replies      
Somewhat relatedly, check out this awesome new camera technology which essentially captures a rolling diff of the image rather than the image itself, with impressive results: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LauQ6LWTkxM
andmarios 5 days ago 0 replies      
A very cool article, indeed; but I believe he uses the term exposure wrong.

Exposure is the total time our whole light sensitive area is exposed to the light coming from our scene. You can think of it as an integral of the sensor (or film) area exposed as a function of the time, divided by the total sensor area.

In the examples he uses the term exposure to describe the total scantime of the sensor, whilst it seems that his actual exposure (which is equal to the time each row of pixels samples the scene) is much smaller.

It may sound as a small difference but if one wants to reproduce the effect, we will essentially need to match two parameters: exposure and scantime. While exposure is easy to set, scantime is pretty much hardcoded and depends on the physical characteristics of the camera. Even an analog shutter has a scantime on small exposure times.

kitd 5 days ago 1 reply      
If I understand this correctly, it is effectively doing what a photo-finish camera does at race sports events, except that the slit moves across the scene, rather than the scene moving past the slit.

Photo-finish shots also end up looking pretty weird:http://coachdeanhebert.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/100-photo...

Magi604 5 days ago 4 replies      
I can see it now. Soon Adobe will include some tool or setting in Photoshop that will automagically "fix" rolling shutter.
carsonreinke 5 days ago 0 replies      
Awesome animated GIFs, definitely helps explain the concept.

This effect was manipulated to extract more information for this: http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2014/algorithm-recovers-speech-fro...

GuiA 6 days ago 0 replies      
Definitely check out other articles on the author's blog; he's a great technical writer.
sp332 5 days ago 0 replies      
My favorite rolling-shutter video, of an upright bass: http://vimeo.com/4041788
kordless 5 days ago 1 reply      
The radial graph half way down the page reminds me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulam_spiral#mediaviewer/File:Sa...
Sami_Lehtinen 5 days ago 1 reply      
Rolling shutters were also used by traditional cameras. This effect is really old school stuff. Rolling shutter providers better exposure than circular shutter. I remember that most of professional photographs taken in 80s also used rolling shutter.
iMac with Retina 5K display
611 points by davidbarker  2 days ago   413 comments top 46
ChikkaChiChi 2 days ago 6 replies      
Thank you, Apple!

They put the "Retina" display in the iMac. This means people will buy it. Higher volume means whoever (LG, I think?) is manufacturing the screens will have to produce more, driving the cost down. That means they will sell variants. Then their competition will also sell competitive options because nobody will want 1080p on a computer screen anymore.

Monitor technology has been stalled for years. This is going to be a gigantic kick in the pants to the industry!

pptr1 2 days ago 9 replies      
I am really curious about the technology behind the 5k iMac. I am not sure if there is any off the shelf GPU out there that can drive that display using retina type rendering.It's interesting they did a custom controller for the display timing (Timing Controller (TCON)) . They must have had to do deep customizations to use the AMD R9 M290X (comparable to the Radeon HD 7870) to drive it.If this is not innovative I am not sure what is, in terms of an engineering standpoint.
bsimpson 2 days ago 5 replies      
FWIW, the only other 5k monitor I can find is from Dell. It's also $2500.[1]

In other words, buy a Retina Cinema Display, get the computer to power it for free.

[1]: http://www.maximumpc.com/dells_5k_monitor_pre_reviewed_2014

Fuzzwah 2 days ago 6 replies      
I'm normally firmly in the "I hate websites that mess with the normal scrolling of a page" crowd.

The scrolling transition at the top of this page really impressed me.

sillysaurus3 2 days ago 7 replies      
I was curious what the exact resolutions were. A quick google search claims:

"4k monitor": 3824 x 2160

"5k monitor": 5120 x 2880

That's a lot of pixels.

It might be a good idea to be skeptical about spending >$1,500 on a 27-inch monitor in Q4 2014. It's difficult to notice any pixelation on a 27" screen at a resolution of 2560x1440, so clearly the reason to upgrade to 5120x2880 is for the extra screen workspace. But unless you have very good vision, you're probably not going to be able to read text at 5120x2880 without zooming. What's the advantage?

For $1,000 you can buy two 27" 2560x1440 monitors, which is a huge amount of workspace. Also, a single $300 midrange GPU can drive both monitors at full resolution. A couple years ago, that was cutting-edge tech, but it cost ~$2600. Also, two monitors offer a better user experience than one monitor, since window management is a bit easier.

Would anyone mind explaining whether the pros of a 5k monitor outweigh the hefty pricetag?

mrb 2 days ago 2 replies      
This might be off-topic, but I instantly recognized the waterfall image at http://www.apple.com/imac-with-retina/ as being http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sk%C3%B3gafoss / https://www.google.com/search?q=Skgafoss&tbm=isch :)
gmays 2 days ago 4 replies      
Hopefully they'll release an updated 5K version of the Thunderbolt Display. They haven't updated it in years, I was really hoping for it today.
lprez 2 days ago 8 replies      
As much as I'd love that display, I can not believe that a $2500 computer is shipping with 8GB of RAM in almost-2015.
fuzzythinker 2 days ago 2 replies      
Very nice presentation of background image transforming into image on monitor.
post_break 2 days ago 1 reply      
Better spring for the 4GB video card, 5k is going to eat up 2GB of video memory fast.
jbarham 2 days ago 0 replies      
This looks like a perfect 4K video editing rig: the 5K display is big enough to play 4K at 100% with lots of extra space for editor controls. Pair it with the Panasonic GH4 and you can shoot and edit cinema quality 4K footage for under $5k, which is amazing.
MatthiasP 2 days ago 0 replies      
That price is cheaper than I expected, since Dell announced that they would charge $2500 for their 5K display. It is about time that 'retina' comes to the desktop, hopefully this will put more pressure on Microsoft and third party devs to actually make high DPI displays work with Windows. As it stands now, Apple has a monopoly on a usable high DPI environment (Assuming the usual quick adaption to this display of the OSX dev community). That may be enough for me to change over to OSX as daily driver, just think about how nice coding on this thing could be.
elnate 1 day ago 0 replies      
I always enjoy the irony of the pictures in these ads. Those displays look awesome while using a quarter of my 1080 display.
fynd 1 day ago 1 reply      
5K is great an all, if your GPU and connection interface can handle it.

It takes roughly 17.2Gbps of bandwidth to drive a 4K @ 60 fps signal in a single stream (Single Stream Transport); DisplayPort 1.2 has just enough bandwidth to support a single 4K @ 60 fps SST stream, but 5K is far too large for the standard. This iMac comes stock with an R9-M290X(2012 GPU) which supports up to DisplayPort 1.2. To get the bandwidth needed for 5k@60hz on DP1.2, Apple would have to overclock the DisplayPort signal by 50-100% on single stream transport.

It seems like the M295X upgrade is a necessity for this thing to render well.

kbutler 2 days ago 0 replies      
I am far from an Apple fan boy, but I am so glad they are pushing the move for resolutions higher than 1920x1080, where monitors were stuck for far too long.
rsync 2 days ago 6 replies      
For. The. Love. Of. God., where is the retina macbook air ?

Are we 3.5 years, or 4 years now since the original retina macbook was introduced ?

pdknsk 2 days ago 2 replies      
When Dell announced their 5K monitor (which does almost certainly have the same panel, albeit probably not the same circuitry) about a month ago, barely anyone registered. This show the brand power and marketing might of Apple I guess.


Skywing 2 days ago 0 replies      
I've owned and used both a 4k monitor and a 144 Hz refresh rate monitor. I personally value the higher refresh rate over the higher resolution. My 4k monitor is actually difficult for me to use, because it feels like the software has not caught up to the resolution yet. Very little is optimized for 4k desktops, yet.
vidyesh 1 day ago 0 replies      
It is great for media professionals to have such a great display but consumer level isn't this bad? Isn't anyone concerned how horrible all our exiting media will look at this resolution? By horrible I mean, windowed of course would look excellent but beyond a certain size not so much maybe?

Most media consumption is done on 1080p or below, not everyone is fortunate to stream 2K or 4K content yet and we are pushing to 5K.

swframe 2 days ago 2 replies      
I wonder if apple will prevent rendering at full resolution like the retina macbook pros because the max font/icon size for many apps is too small.This would mean you are paying for a screen that can't render at the new fancy resolution because the resulting info would be too small to resolve by most people.

Many computer users suffer from eye strain because they have to stare to resolve the information; their eyes dry and then each blink causes tiny scratches which over time causes serious damage.

72deluxe 1 day ago 1 reply      
Very impressive. I notice that the new Mac Mini has dropped in price to 300 here in the UK, although of a significantly lower (rubbish) spec than the lowest model we've seen before. If this runs fine, it looks like an attempt to make inroads into the "PC" market, as 300 + a screen is really in the economy PC market area, no?
Xcelerate 2 days ago 0 replies      
Wow. I've been waiting for a screen like that for a decade now. My first Mac purchase (retina display Macbook) was made only on the basis of the screen, and I don't regret it at all. I hope they come out with a standalone display soon, but I'll have to upgrade my laptop I guess to power it. I don't think the current MBPR's can even drive a 5K screen?
KobaQ 2 days ago 0 replies      
Hmmm, impressive. But I (honest question) wonder how this will handle blu rays or other full HD content at full screen? All those pixels need to be interpolated an 60 (50) Hz ...

Highly peronal: I hate all the marketing retina HD bla bla shit from Apple, but I love these beautiful iMacs. I want one :-).

sremani 2 days ago 1 reply      
I have Lenovo Y50 4K and use Seiki 50-inch TV 4k TV which I sometimes use it as a monitor for my machine. 4K resolution is amazing but there is definitely diminishing returns. I am sure 5K would be definitely amazing but do not expect a lot if you are power user or a programmer. Designer and other artistic folks may have more to mine here.
lazyjones 2 days ago 0 replies      
I like the specs, but am wondering whether it is as quiet as a 2008 iMac 24" (I have one now). The parts are probably rated a bit higher TDP-wise. Any experiences yet, is there a noisy fan?
ambler0 2 days ago 0 replies      
Has anyone figured out what the refresh rate of this display is going to be?
ttty 1 day ago 0 replies      
A similar screen would make win display correctly? From past experience windows is a mess at scaling when the DPI is high.
Robadob 2 days ago 1 reply      
It's interesting that they have dropped NVidia graphics, hopefully they won't for the rmbp line in spring seeing as I'm hoping to buy one then for CUDA development.
activeplum 2 days ago 0 replies      
The specs for the new retina iMac claim it supports an external display @3840x2160. But: 1. Will it be 60Hz? 2. Only one such display, right? Thanks.
autism_hurts 2 days ago 0 replies      
God DAMN Apple's product pages are unparalleled.
BillyParadise 2 days ago 0 replies      
Get jiggy with that parallax scrollin'
ceejayoz 2 days ago 0 replies      
Whatever it is, my 2011 Macbook Pro despises it.
Kiro 1 day ago 0 replies      
Does this mean you have to do stuff differently when adapting your website for retina?
vans 1 day ago 0 replies      
Master Xtrem top most over ultimate power.Penta HD 3D dolby monster hugely powerfull master.Chef sergeant ultra hydra peta wonderfull ultimately bestest....To the max !...

throw up

visarga 2 days ago 3 replies      
MacBook Air 11'' - scrolls smoothly in Chrome

MacBookPro 13'' Retina - choppy scroll in Chrome

So, the more advanced, 4x higher pixel count laptop was the worst in speed.

fuzzythinker 2 days ago 0 replies      
Spec doesn't show what resolutions are supported...
smenko 1 day ago 0 replies      
Samsung had this in bla bla....
rmbe 2 days ago 0 replies      
I wonder what the average power draw is.
thegenius 2 days ago 0 replies      
bogomipz 2 days ago 0 replies      
Does each new Apple product really need a separate post on HN? Is there not enough media coverage on this stuff elsewhere?
activeplum 2 days ago 4 replies      
Can anyone tell me please will my 2013 Mac Pro handle two such new iMacs just as external displays at 60 Hz? Thanks.
adnam 2 days ago 1 reply      
_ 6 apple.com links on the homepage
ultrabenosaurus 1 day ago 1 reply      
5K? Seriously? This shouldn't make me anywhere near as furious as it has done. Fucking Apple, yet again, does whatever they can to make sure their users aren't compatible with the rest of the world.
activeplum 2 days ago 1 reply      
Can anyone tell me please will my 2013 Mac Pro handle two such new iMacs at external displays at 60 Hz? Thanks.
skrowl 2 days ago 1 reply      
Funny how in their keynote they went on and on about how having a high resolution display is great... a month after they released the sub 1080p iPhone 6.
call 2 days ago 0 replies      
I can really FEEL the retina with this page.


Why Inequality Matters
592 points by mhb  2 days ago   444 comments top 50
r0h1n 2 days ago 15 replies      
I must say Bill Gates, in his post Microsoft avatar, continues to surprise me constantly. This is a refreshingly candid and sanguine review of Piketty's book from someone who was a ruthless capitalist not so long ago.

Gates rightly (and self-servingly) also points out that Piketty does not consider philanthropy as a means to correct some of capitalism's imbalances. Here's a few of Gates' conclusions:

> Piketty is right that there are forces that can lead to snowballing wealth (including the fact that the children of wealthy people often get access to networks that can help them land internships, jobs, etc.). However, there are also forces that contribute to the decay of wealth, and Capital doesnt give enough weight to them.

> I am also disappointed that Piketty focused heavily on data on wealth and income while neglecting consumption altogether. Consumption data represent the goods and services that people buyincluding food, clothing, housing, education, and healthand can add a lot of depth to our understanding of how people actually live. Particularly in rich societies, the income lens really doesnt give you the sense of what needs to be fixed.

> Pikettys favorite solution is a progressive annual tax on capital, rather than income. He argues that this kind of tax will make it possible to avoid an endless inegalitarian spiral while preserving competition and incentives for new instances of primitive accumulation.

> I agree that taxation should shift away from taxing labor. It doesnt make any sense that labor in the United States is taxed so heavily relative to capital. It will make even less sense in the coming years, as robots and other forms of automation come to perform more and more of the skills that human laborers do today.

But rather than move to a progressive tax on capital, as Piketty would like, I think wed be best off with a progressive tax on consumption. Think about the three wealthy people I described earlier: One investing in companies, one in philanthropy, and one in a lavish lifestyle. Theres nothing wrong with the last guy, but I think he should pay more taxes than the others. As Piketty pointed out when we spoke, it's hard to measure consumption (for example, should political donations count?). But then, almost every tax systemincluding a wealth taxhas similar challenges.

Like Piketty, Im also a big believer in the estate tax. Letting inheritors consume or allocate capital disproportionately simply based on the lottery of birth is not a smart or fair way to allocate resources. As Warren Buffett likes to say, thats like choosing the 2020 Olympic team by picking the eldest sons of the gold-medal winners in the 2000 Olympics. I believe we should maintain the estate tax and invest the proceeds in education and researchthe best way to strengthen our country for the future.

michaelvkpdx 2 days ago 6 replies      
I appreciate Gates' analysis of Piketty, but Gates is still blind to an important point- he came from a middle-class background and therefore had enough capital to gain a footing in the world and to be able to write his initial code without worrying about the basic needs of survival.

40% of youth in the USA today do not even have that, and as such, have virtually no chance at all of being able to even play in the capitalist economy. They will be successful if they avoid homelessness and hunger, which will be a daily struggle.

Gates, Buffett, and others who claim to be philanthropists work from a point of ignorance, believing that all youth at least have their basic needs covered by this society. They are blind. Piketty at least acknowledges the underclasses.

These so-called philanthropists depend on the existence of a permanent underclass to support their "charity".

I was raised on the edges of this underclass and even today, after 20 years in the business doing quite well, I worry every day that I will soon be homeless or hungry. I have no inheritance to count on,other than debt from my family. The idea of taking a couple of months without income to make a startup is laughable- how would I eat and make my house payment? Most of the peers from my youth are on public assistance, in jail, ill, or worse. They are easy prey for the tech titans, who fill their eyes with glittery visions that make them forget their hunger and cold. This is in the Bay Area, mind you, less than 20 miles from the Valley.

Gates' idea of a consumption tax would heavily penalize these people, who have been enslaved into a consumer lifestyle by the wealthy who exercise control over their lives.

The whole "inequality" debate laments the demise of the middle class. But it never acknowledges the permanent underclass that is a necessary component of a society that can take the time for the inequality debate.

I got out, though you never lose the psychic clutches of abject poverty. Most folks never get out.

ska 2 days ago 4 replies      
"I dont see anyone on the list whose ancestors bought a great parcel of land in 1780 and have been accumulating family wealth by collecting rents ever since."

What you do see though, in the same Fortune 400 list is that 6 of the top 10 people on that list didn't build their companies (in the sense that Bill Gates did), they inherited them.

I don't know how much the current crop Kochs or Waltons are responsible for the current success of their ventures, but this is the type of thing I believe Piketty had in mind as much as the "parcels of land" approach. Also rent seeking is a problem distinct from a rentier class.

Can you argue convincingly that these people would have been just as successful without the advantages of their births? I suspect that would be quite difficult.

ap22213 2 days ago 0 replies      
"I dont see anyone on the list whose ancestors bought a great parcel of land in 1780 and have been accumulating family wealth by collecting rents ever since."

Piketty makes it clear that America is a special case because of all of the 'almost free' capital in terms of land and population growth that had existed over the last couple hundred years. But, he claims that America in the future will more resemble Europe of the last few hundred years.

Also, although Gates claims that half of the richest people in the US have gotten rich from their businesses (I haven't checked if that's true), he almost ignores the fact that most of these richest people have come from upper middle class background, at the least. He also ignores the huge number of richest people who have attained their wealth from financial instruments.

chollida1 2 days ago 2 replies      
Just a heads up about the book. Its dense, like a Nassim Taleb book dense. it took me over a month to get through it so if you choose to read it, its not a weekend read.

If you want the highlights, this economist article does as decent a job of summarizing 400+ pages as you can hope for in 4 paragraphs.


As for the content, the main take away, is his r > g argument which is illustrated by the following chart:


One of his other big ideas Bill hits on is his tax on captial. Bill proposes a tax on consumption instead.

> But rather than move to a progressive tax on capital, as Piketty would like, I think wed be best off with a progressive tax on consumption.

Maybe not surprisingly since I work in finance, most of my colleges are on Bill's side and not Piketty's here. To be fair to Piketty, he chose a tax on capital because he's coming from a perspective of how do we prevent the accumulation of wealth over generations, where as Bill is coming at it from how do we raise enough taxes to pay for the the services the government needs to provide.

I would recommend reading this book, its clearly a labor of love for him and he's spent the time to back it up with data, just don't expect to agree with all his conclusions.

vannevar 2 days ago 0 replies      
Contrary to Pikettys rentier hypothesis, I dont see anyone on the list whose ancestors bought a great parcel of land in 1780 and have been accumulating family wealth by collecting rents ever since.

Bill, you didn't read far enough into the Forbes 400 article, which says:

"We didnt include dispersed family fortunes. Those appeared on our Americas Richest Families list, which came out in July."

That money from 1780 is far from 'long gone.' In fact, most wealthy people started life rich and got richer, largely because they could afford to place bigger bets in life and take advantage of opportunities for labor-free capital gains that simply aren't available to people born without capital.Contrary to Gates' assertion, a 2012 study found that two thirds of the Forbes 400 were born wealthy (http://www.faireconomy.org/bornonthirdbase2012).

plehoux 2 days ago 1 reply      
Gates described three personas :

1. One guy is putting his capital into building his business2. A woman whos giving most of her wealth to charity3. A third person is mostly consuming, spending a lot of money on things like a yacht and plane

All three actually spend their wealth. The problem with extreme inequality is that really wealthy people can invest, give and spent AND still sit on massive amount of wealth that get past to the next generation.

A progressive tax on consumption wouldn't be enough to fight this.

One core argument of Piketty is that the actual debate has been highly distorted by the massive wealth redistribution that happen in consequence of the first two world wars, something Gates doesn't acknowledge in his review.

[UPDATE] I overlooked the estate tax Gates proposed in his review.

netcan 2 days ago 1 reply      
Bill gates is impressive. It's a hard subject to stay objective with. The validity of the data has some level of uncertainty (by its nature). The interpretation of the data too. I have yet to find an explanation (by Pickety or others) that made me understand the mechanics of the "Snowball Effect" at the centre of it all: 'r > g.' Once you get into the soup of morality and policy, well

I like how he starts with the things he broadly agrees with. Even just agreeing that extremely uneven distribution is a problem and why, gives us a starting point. I personally take a slightly Marxist view on this. I don't think that extremely uneven distribution is politically stable, or compatible with democracy.

I am slightly doubtful of taxation as a solution. Taxation is stuck really. The problem is that most tax regimes are designed to maximize tax revenue while minimizing damage to the economy.

Consumption/sales taxes, income taxes and other middle class taxes are convenient in that they are very hard for people to avoid and they don't affect behavior much. marginal income tax of up to 60% is generally assumed to have a negligible effect on how much people work.

A 1% annual tax on wealth equates to a $10m annual cost of living in a country for a billionaire. Would they move (themselves and/or their wealth) to avoid it? Can some of that $10m be used to find ways of avoiding the rest of it?

I think that ultimately, wealth accumulation needs to change in order to change the structure of the economy.

Also, I like that Gates considers cultural norms, not just policy. What Gates & Buffet have committed to is a partial solution. If 20-30% of billionaires do this, it might be enough to change overall distribution somewhat.

In any case, more questions than answers.

bsbechtel 2 days ago 6 replies      
>High levels of inequality are a problemmessing up economic incentives, tilting democracies in favor of powerful interests, and undercutting the ideal that all people are created equal.

I agree with generally all of Gates' thoughts here, but there are two actors to consider when discussing how to address problems associated with inequality - the government, and those who own capital. There is an implicit assumption by both Gates and Piketty that a government is always powerful enough to control what portion of wealth flows to capital owners, and what portion flows to labor.

The risk with a powerful government that can do this is it can be bought. A perfect example of this is Gates own story with The Common Core. From everything I've read, his own foundation basically bankrolled the lobbying, acceptance, and implementation of this program, much to the dismay of many educators I know. As long as a democracy bequeaths power to its government, there will be moneyed interests lining up to tilt that power in their favor.

The other option is to limit the power the government has to control the flow of wealth. No one wants to buy a democracy that doesn't have any power to protect their interests. What ends up happening is wealthy actors have to figure out other ways to maintain their wealth - consumption in things like yachts and fancy cars goes down and investment goes up. As investment goes up, g goes up because that investment is creating more jobs and more competition for employees, and r goes down because the capital markets become flooded.

selmnoo 2 days ago 3 replies      

    I fully agree that we dont want to live in an aristocratic society in which     already-wealthy families get richer simply by sitting on their laurels and     collecting what Piketty calls rentier incomethat is, the returns people earn     when they let others use their money, land, or other property. But I dont think     America is anything close to that.    Take a look at the Forbes 400 list of the wealthiest Americans. About half    the people on the list are entrepreneurs whose companies did very well     (thanks to hard work as well as a lot of luck). Contrary to Pikettys     rentier hypothesis, I dont see anyone on the list whose ancestors bought a     great parcel of land in 1780 and have been accumulating family wealth by     collecting rents ever since. In America, that old money is long gonethrough     instability, inflation, taxes, philanthropy, and spending.
This was a little disappointing to read. Rentier income, in the context of the book I think includes passed down positions in which the children of the rich continue receiving that high income. That is to say, could the current owners of Walmart have been individuals other than the direct descendants of Sam Walton? If they had been other individuals chosen by a meritocratic criteria and process, Gates' point would stand. As-is, it does not.

GuiA 2 days ago 1 reply      
> Take a look at the Forbes 400 list of the wealthiest Americans. About half the people on the list are entrepreneurs whose companies did very well (thanks to hard work as well as a lot of luck). Contrary to Pikettys rentier hypothesis, I dont see anyone on the list whose ancestors bought a great parcel of land in 1780 and have been accumulating family wealth by collecting rents ever since. In America, that old money is long gonethrough instability, inflation, taxes, philanthropy, and spending.

The USA are somewhat of an edge case here due to their youth. Look at older countries, such as France (where Piketty and I are from) and you'll see a marked difference.

k-mcgrady 2 days ago 1 reply      
I've been meaning to get a copy of this for a while. When it first came out there were a lot of people shouting he (Piketty) was wrong and there were problems with the data and other people shouting that those first people were idiots. The debate continued even after Piketty released more data in his defence. That shouting put me off a bit. It was nice to read a balanced review from someone I respect and I'm definitely going to read it soon.
jotm 2 days ago 1 reply      
"A third person is mostly consuming, spending a lot of money on things like a yacht and plane. While its true that the wealth of all three people is contributing to inequality, I would argue that the first two are delivering more value to society than the third."

Really? I always considered this kind of spending a good thing for society. Other businesses and people get that money, they create technology, materials and processes that would likely not exist otherwise, there's still tax being paid along the way and we get a bit of cultural heritage as a bonus (castles, boats, planes, cars, the Sistine Chapel, a lot of paintings - all of which exists only because some rich man decided he wanted it).

Taxing luxury is a mistake and a potential slippery slope IMO. IIRC, the US tried it in the past with disappointing results.

esfandia 2 days ago 4 replies      
Philanthropy strikes me as anti-democratic. Why should the rich get to choose which causes are more deserving of their generosity? Let the elected government pool the money and make this determination.
CharlesGust 2 days ago 0 replies      
Bill Gates gives sound reasons for maintaining the estate tax, and I agree with the general proposition of having something like a consumption tax. But, I have a different take on the social utility of capital transfers.

Yes, what you invest in you tend to get more of. But, each capital transfer does not destroy the capital. So, if you are buying a yacht, that capital goes to the designer, the builders, the welders, the suppliers, etc. Now, the point is that these people now have their own choices to do something with the capital received. Some of it will go for food, some of it will go for BBQ grills, some of it will go for big screen TV's. And, then the people receiving that capital will make their choices ad infinitum.

(Perhaps a performance artist alighting a million dollars in cash would actually destroy capital. They are undoubtedly more examples of waste)

I guess I can still see the incentives that would be built into a tax system (as they are built into ANY tax system) to alleviate what may otherwise be burdens on government into encouraging more social utility. But, I just wanted to emphasize that it is not that luxury spending has NO social utility, it just diffuses the social utility into multiple second order spending decisions.

taeric 2 days ago 1 reply      
"For example, a medical student with no income and lots of student loans would look in the official statistics like shes in a dire situation but may well have a very high income in the future."

Not that I really disagree with the point here, but I can't help but wonder whether or not the people in the categories he listed exist in large enough numbers to get out of the noise category. Heck, I would think there are about as many literal lottery winners as there are folks in this category.

mgulaid 2 days ago 0 replies      
Economists don't consider philanthropy a strong factor in economic development or advancement. Philanthropy IMHO has never contributed significantly to lift millions of people out of poverty. Although Gates Foundation and similar NGOs are doing wonderful deeds in Africa and the USA, it will not have the same impact as tax structure/incentives, trade policy, labor laws, access to education, immigration laws, etc. Also how do you define philanthropy, the work of the Koch brothers can be considered philanthropic in some peoples' opinions. Philanthropy is personal and political exercise.

I think philanthropy is great, but only few people are doing it. And those who do it, dont do it effectively, do it too late, or focus on the symptoms rather on the causes, which are much harder to deal with. Philanthropy has become an accessory or a career suffix for those have got lucky.

Gates talks about the middle class in China and else where is getting bigger. True, but philanthropic has little to do with this improvement. Aggressive and central economic management, and free trade policy with the US helped above mentioned countries to sustain a healthy middle income class in China, Mexico, Colombia.

penprog 2 days ago 3 replies      
Why would we want to tax consumption of the wealthy (or anyone)? Don't we want to promote spending? The tax code should reward those that make investments, purchases, and donations. Not punish them. They should punish those that sit on their wealth and do nothing with it.
sharemywin 2 days ago 2 replies      
This is where it gets complicated for me. Gates value judges the rich person spending money on a yacht and plane. Planes and yachts are pretty complicated gadgets that employ a lot of engineers and others. The plane makers technology might even contribute to some other kind of businesses similar to the space program in the sixties and seventies. Where as tech companies sitting on piles of cash because they don't know how to spend it seems like a bad use of capital to me.
grondilu 2 days ago 0 replies      
> I fully agree that we dont want to live in an aristocratic society in which already-wealthy families get richer simply by sitting on their laurels and collecting what Piketty calls rentier incomethat is, the returns people earn when they let others use their money, land, or other property.

This is debatable. For one, aristocracy is not exactly this, as it is a system based on the notion of privilege, not just wealth. Concretely, it often means the same but still, using the word is quite misleading.

Secondly, one may argue that people, and thus families, should have the right to build stuff in the very long term, that is in a multi-generational way. Even if this thing they build is merely a framework of financial comfort. I doubt anyone would question the morality of offering gifts to children. So it's not clear to me why it would be wrong to give a child the means not to worry about money in life, and do it recursively through centuries.

mempko 2 days ago 1 reply      
I am going to repeat here, what I posted on hist site.

Mr Gates,

I am hoping you posted this not only to express your opinion, but to engage in conversation. And it appears you certainly are.

My criticism with your response is that philanthropy distorts economic resources through a similar mechanism that consumption does.

That is, by dictate.

I believe in the idea that people who are affected by decisions made should have a say in those decisions. This is the value of democracy.

And just like consumption of fine wine and jewelry distorts the economy to produce more of those things, philanthropy moves vast economic resources for what I would call "the pet projects of philanthropists". Typically the people affected by the philanthropic expenditures have no say. More often than not, no democracy processes take place.

A king who lives a modest lifestyle, who spends all his wealth on what HE thinks is just and good, is still a king. And I hold contempt for his arrogance.

tn13 2 days ago 0 replies      
Whether or not inequality is a problem can be debated but we must be beware of that "I am from Government and I am here to help" trap.

--- Governments can play a constructive role in offsetting the snowballing tendencies if and when they choose to do so. --

Governments of course could play a constructive role into many things just the way my son could spend more time doing math instead of watching cartoons. The sad problem about human beings is that unless they get something out of it they wont do anything. Government have a strong incentive to tax everyone more and more in the name of inequality and environment but they have 0 incentive to anything about inequality using that money.

I would rather live in a world with extreme inequality rather than a world where government is trying to bring "equality".

harmonicon 2 days ago 3 replies      
I have a lot of respect for Bill Gates because of his philanthropic efforts. However, I am very skeptical of the consumption tax argument. To me that sounds like a sales tax and sales tax is regressive. i.e. Tax on French baguette hits the poor more than the rich, since as a group they consume way more baguette.

Even if it is just a special sales tax that targets the rich only, discouraging spending by people with money can hardly be a good thing; that's how recession happen and the rich will continue to capture a bigger share of the total wealth. For an economy to flourish we need the wealth to flow from individual to individual. If all the water on earth is stuck in the ocean we'd have serious problem. Same with wealth.

Joeboy 2 days ago 5 replies      
> I think wed be best off with a progressive tax on consumption

In theory I like the idea of a "tax on consumption", because it suggests a penalty on conspicuous consumption and wasteful spending. In practice, taxes on consumption are seen as regressive, ie. they affect the poor more than the rich. Is there a way to tax "bad" consumption, without penalizing people who "consume" a large proportion of their income simply because they don't have much of it? I'm picturing some byzantine tax code system where functionaries make value judgements about the morality of various kinds of goods.

spenrose 2 days ago 0 replies      
Piketty cites 1914->1945 over and over in his book as the one period when r < g, and discusses the implications for his theory over dozens of pages. Yet Gates somehow seems to think WWI and the Great Depression are a gotcha! he has come up with.

Gates: "Far more peopleincluding many rentiers who invested their family wealth in the auto industrysaw their investments go bust in the period from 1910 to 1940, when the American auto industry shrank from 224 manufacturers down to 21. So instead of a transfer of wealth toward rentiers and other passive investors, you often get the opposite."

zachrose 1 day ago 0 replies      
"Imagine three types of wealthy people. One guy is putting his capital into building his business. Then theres a woman whos giving most of her wealth to charity. A third person is mostly consuming, spending a lot of money on things like a yacht and plane. While its true that the wealth of all three people is contributing to inequality, I would argue that the first two are delivering more value to society than the third."

Of course buying yourself things you don't need delivers less value to society than commerce or philanthropy. Of course. Absolutely.

But maybe...

Maybe buying yourself things gives you the chance to have unique experiences. Maybe hitting golf balls into the ocean from the deck of your megayacht gives you the relaxing moment you need to figure out how to boost profits by 300%. Maybe doing a ton of blow and driving a Jaguar give you the necessary experiences to write awesome rock tunes that inspire millions. Maybe if Galileo Galilei hadn't bought himself a lump of clear glass in 1609 we wouldn't know about space.

lsiebert 2 days ago 0 replies      
Okay, I want to talk a little bit about how wealthy people would benefit in a more egalitarian society. But if we assume they are objectivist, there are some issues.

It's difficult to do so, because it's hard to say what can benefit a person who is wealthy already.

I mean I can point to data that suggests that people who earn better wages, get headstart, have libraries in their community, get a college education, etc are less likely to commit crimes, but your wealth probably means that you can afford good security.

I can say that in a more egalitarian society, vaccinations would be free, and thus you are your children are less likely to get diseases, but you have good health care, and so this isn't a huge issue.

So I guess the best way is to point out that in a more egalitarian society with free or low cost education and funding for research, general progress in the sciences would happen faster. You get better medicine, better technology, can potentially live longer. Also such an economy will grow more quickly, and while if there were more stringent taxes you may not gain as much of the pie as you could, a bigger pie would cancel that out.

bigdubs 2 days ago 0 replies      
I haven't read the book, and not sure Gates reaction covers this.

It's fine to have a progressive tax. That progressive tax becomes useless if you gut entitlement spending and instead spend on programs or services where the money ends up back in major corporations hands (defense spending, private contracting etc.)

In order for a progressive tax to be corrective it has to put the money to work for people in the lower end of the tax curve.

pastProlog 2 days ago 0 replies      
At some point in the Matrix movies, Neo learns he is not the first Neo. If you read Hegel, you learn that capitalism is not the first economic system. It was preceded by feudalism, which was preceded by the slave latifundia of Rome and Babylon which was preceded by the hunter-gatherer bands that the world was solely covered with 10,000 years ago. Hegel saw enlightened, capitalist Prussia as the epitome of human civilization, but like those biologists who note that even humans are still evolving, Marx and Engels noted that the fourth economic system the world had thrown up might not be the last one, and that crises (like the one we had in 2008) were signs of the cancer it was dying from.

The interview question on stages nowadays seems to be what does someone believe in that is not commonly believed, and I supposed the out idea now is the people who control production, the people who own capital are not interested in economy growing as fast as it sustainably can. They want a slower rate of growth in order to maintain more control of the system. This idea not only goes against current economic thinking, and investor's chasing of maximum returns, it's an anti-Marxist idea as well. It seems to be happening though. It's why people like Paul Allen and Nathan Myhrvold pour money into patent companies. It's why the joint chiefs of staff beg the Congress to cut funding for old Cold War tank factories every time the military budget comes up, but the billions for useless tanks, or the hundreds of billions for the designed by committee F-35 boondoggle etc.

As Marx notes, something like a "war on poverty" is a joke, since people are not only purposefully kept poor but purposefully thrown into poverty, like during the enclosure of the commons in Europe. A surplus army of labor is a major tool to keep workers from keeping more of the wealth they create.

Sooner or later, the good ship USS Wall Street will inevitably run aground, and the economy will grind to a halt in a way that will make modern Greece or 1930s USA look good. Then it will just be a question of what working class people and professionals do in their new situation. It's not really the working class people, who are familiar enough with reality, who one has to wonder about, it's more the US professional classes, who are more highly indoctrinated than probably any group of people in the world. I hold my mouth in awe as I hear US professionals pontificating about things going on half-way around the world in which they know absolutely nothing about. NPR is ultimately a heavier propaganda outlet than Der Strmer, or Fox News.

ajcarpy2005 2 days ago 1 reply      
From the comments on the site:>>>A poor person, will spend all his income on consumption of food, clothes, water and all the basic things that he can pay.

>>>A rich person, will only spend a small fraction of it's income, so in the end, proportionally, poor people end paying more taxes then rich people, and that's actually something that's hurting poor people here.

^^^This seems to actually be a sensible argument for there being a problem with a simple flat consumption tax.

A solution might be to have a progressive tax on consumption which becomes more meaningful when levels of spending on consumption reaches a level beyond that of the lower 33% of the populace or something like this. The problem would be figuring out how to apply this tax since it couldn't be done through the sales tax as it currently exists.

stuaxo 1 day ago 1 reply      
He mentions three kinds of wealthy person and what they spend most of their money on.

Surely the 4th is the most important - the one who is NOT spending most of their money.

quantumf 1 day ago 0 replies      
So Gates wants heavy taxes on consumers, but no taxes on entrepreneurs and philanthropists. Interesting. I wonder which of these categories applies to Gates?
IanDrake 2 days ago 0 replies      
"Imagine three types of wealthy people. One guy is putting his capital into building his business. Then theres a woman whos giving most of her wealth to charity. A third person is mostly consuming, spending a lot of money on things like a yacht and plane. While its true that the wealth of all three people is contributing to inequality, I would argue that the first two are delivering more value to society than the third."

The problem with this line of thinking is that yachts and planes don't grow on trees. They're built and maintained by people who have jobs (typically well paid jobs) because someone with wealth is paying for it.

So, to me at least, there is only one type of wealthy person who doesn't add value and that is the hoarder.

ash 2 days ago 0 replies      
Philip Greenspun has written a whole series of posts reviewing this book: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2014/06/17/book-review-pi...
clairity 2 days ago 0 replies      
i think what gates is ultimately saying is that "good" wealth (gates's main concern, since he's rather invested in the topic) has a potentially higher multiplier effect than bad (wealth solely used for consumption).

so in his example, investors and philanthropists have more volatility around the potential effects of their wealth, so the multiplier can be >1, <1, or =1, but the key is that it can be >1, which means that it can be value generating. consumers' multipliers are necessarily <= 1.

as an aside, i'm also intrigued by the idea of economic velocity as an indicator of economic health (as opposed to the gini coefficient, which is a rather static measure) that's tangentially related to the idea of economic inequality. of course, for capital to have a stabilizing effect on the economy, it needs to have a high dispersion coefficient, but that's another discussion.

georgeecollins 2 days ago 0 replies      
I like his comparison of how the emergence of the auto industry was a way new wealth was created by entrepreneurs and old wealth was destroyed through bad investments. He says he sees a similarity in tech booms. There is a real value in the frothyness of tech bubbles. Capital can't accumulate forever. People need to be convinced to make bad investments. In that sense unsuccessful VCs serve a useful purpose.
foobarqux 2 days ago 0 replies      
I can't understand how someone so intelligent can misread Piketty so badly. For example, Gates focuses on individuals in some of his critiques but Piketty is talking about classes of wealth, the constituents of which may change but, Piketty argues, whose characteristics do not.
rumcajz 2 days ago 1 reply      
In what way would consumption tax address capital accumulation?

Also, using 1910-1940 period as an example to show that Piketty is wrong doesn't make much sense given that Piketty's data show that inequality have actually lowered in that particular period.

pappyo 2 days ago 0 replies      
For a more in depth review of Piketty's book, I posted a review I found a while back.


mkempe 2 days ago 2 replies      
Gates, and Piketty, would benefit from considering the insights of the Austrian school of economics, instead of accepting then regurgitating Marx & Engels with a veneer of civilized discourse. Neither seems to have read a single page of Ludwig von Mises or Eugen von Bhm-Bawerk. Piketty certainly quotes Marx ad nauseam.

George Reisman has offered a thorough critique [1] of Piketty's arguments -- arguing across a range of topics, from David Ricardo's insights in the role and formation of capital to the meaning and value of inequality in both income and wealth.

[1] http://georgereismansblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/pikettys-capi...

jokoon 2 days ago 0 replies      
> wealth decays

I don't understand this. I mean you just get poor much quicker when you have less wealth. I understand that you don't stay rich, but it secures your kid's futures.

cyphunk 2 days ago 0 replies      

    And when does inequality start doing more harm than good?
First up, please explain when inequality does any good

michaelochurch 2 days ago 0 replies      
The "r > g" debate is interesting. I think the problem is more subtle than that.

One of the problems is that people get different r's. Just look at VC firms. A pension fund that invests in venture capital funds gets mediocre returns: nothing much better than they'd get from an index fund, and often less. VC partners collect 2-and-20 and get to allocate favors (because it can benefit their careers to make decisions that are suboptimal for the portfolio, and they often do). The "real r" in that engine might be higher (if VCs focused on technical excellence rather than their own careers, I think we'd see quite a respectable r) but the delivered r is mediocre. That's just one example.

To go further, and I don't know how to solve this: if you have good relationships with various counterparties (especially, banks) you can get a low-risk r > 15% in arbitrage. Contrary to stereotype, arbitrage is neither risky (it's low in risk, and most arbitrage blow-ups occur because some hotshot trader got bored and started taking unauthorized positions) nor is it socially harmful (it provides liquidity to markets, which is a good thing). It is, however, not open to most people.

There are many things that cause "wealth decay" or normalization. I'll name four. Hyperinflation and violent revolution are the most disruptive (sorry San Francisco, but disruption is a bad thing). Taxation is the smoothest but can be ineffective (loopholes). Wealth management is yet a fourth: at some point, a large fortune has management overhead and, as its owners become less interested in day-to-day running of the money, much of that excess "r" goes to the agents than to them.

As for "r >? g", I'd prefer two things. First: I'd like that everyone have access to the same r, but I don't know how to achieve that. Second, g isn't constant. World economic growth is 4.5% per year. I believe that it could be 8% or 10% with some heavy R&D investment, and with better (and, quite frankly, smarter) people running the world. The all-time record high for world GDP growth is 5.7% in the 1960s, but we have so much more technology, and the shape of economic growth is (while I don't believe in a "singularity" of the theatrical sense) faster-than-exponential.

Even now, we have a world in which programmers (not 10x or 2.0+ engineers, but just regular programmers) become 10-12% more productive each year due to tool improvements. Motivated, ambitious programmers can do 30% per year. The bad news is that it's almost impossible for a programmer to grow her income at any rate near that. In fact, as she becomes more experienced, she's also more specialized and dependent on her employers (or clients) for great projects. They'll pay her pennies on the dollar relative to what she's worth, that charge being for the "favor" of allocating the good work. The reason why 10x engineers only make 1.3-1.5x salaries (until they become consultants, at which point it's more like 2-3x) is that their employers are very good at playing the "we can give you a raise, or we can give you career-positive work" game.

The software economy is at the fore of what's happening to other industries, but people in most sectors are a good deal poorer. We're comfortable upper-working class people complaining about our slide into the upper-middle-working class, but people outside of tech don't have anything to lose.

What we actually need to focus on is g, and r_labor. We want a high r_capital and an even higher r_labor. Sadly, badly managed economic growth tends to make r_labor negative. That happened in the American 1920s with agricultural commodities (contributing to spiral rural poverty, which led to the Great Depression) and it's happening to all human labor in the 2010s.

ommunist 2 days ago 0 replies      
That's easy! Inequality matters until some people are more equal than the others.
lifeisstillgood 2 days ago 0 replies      
Not your average book review ("Piketty kindly spoke to me on a Skype call ...")

And oddly chimes very well with my own views on Piketty. (Yeah, me and billg, great minds you know:-)

The Tl;dr is perhaps rd >g is a better formula where d is rate of decay of wealth. And "yes we need a wealth tax, can we make policy to differentiate between good wealth (used for socially beneficial purposes) and bad wealth (yachts, coke and hookers)

I agree but that is a solution to late - "if we have robber barons we should encourage them to be philanthropists" is missing opportunities to use regulation and competition and externality pricing to flatten the profits accruing to monopoly holders and so reduce the amount of wealth horsing in the first place.

That said nice piece, and billg still gets my vote for top ten nicest billionaire.

squozzer 2 days ago 0 replies      
I think what people miss about consumption taxes - beyond its' regressive nature - is that everything in the end is a form of consumption.The distinction between capital, labor, and consumption is false - it only has meaning once you account for expected outcome.

Capital = purchases expected to generate a profit.Labor = purchases expected to generate work. It need not generate a profit necessarily - e.g. paying someone to mow your lawn.Consumption = purchases expected to generate pleasure, or avoid pain.

I'm sure the basis of these distinctions rest on some idea of social utility - that trying to turn a profit has more social utility than eating a Twinkie. Maybe we should examine that assumption also.

And consider how these notions entangle themselves in practice. A company car intended for non-personal use is considered an asset to the company, and treated as capital. But a similar car used for commuting is considered a consumption item.

auggierose 2 days ago 0 replies      
r > g is not an equation, it's an inequality
PythonicAlpha 2 days ago 2 replies      
Must be some American specialty. At the end, Bill Gates sees Philanthropy as (part of a) solution. This must have something to do with the US-American history and background? I heard that opinion so often and we are in deed in an era of big philanthropists (like Bill himself). But I (no American, and maybe missing some genetics for it) can not see any solution in it. The biggest philanthropists today are in the US, but also the US is one of the countries, where inequality rises fastest. So, by this viewing alone, there must rise some doubts about it.

Also, you could compare philanthropy with the "foreign aid" that western countries give to poorer ones for decades now. Did it help? In many cases, it made things worse, because the money did not help the people to help themselves, but made them addicted to the aid.

The point is also that philanthropy -- as it might silence the own conscience -- is often the overflow of the overflow. We give, because we have more than we need and than we give what we need least. But what people really need, is not somebody that throws pennies in your hat, so you can buy some old bread -- but what they really need, are equal chances -- to be able to visit the same universities, to have the same jobs and to earn the same money as other people with the same talents.

You might argue: But Bill also fought his way from "rags to riches" -- no, that is not right. Bill already was born in a well being family and visiting visited Harvard College. With such a background, it is much easier to come from rich to riches, as if you come from Uganda slums (or even Harlem).

peter303 2 days ago 1 reply      
ironical from a multiple times convicted monopolist
naland 2 days ago 0 replies      
Gates on notes in vinyl oh boy Girl you know it's true.And I blame myself can't read this.
My Philosophy on Alerting: Observations of a Site Reliability Engineer at Google
563 points by ismavis  5 days ago   119 comments top 24
beat 5 days ago 6 replies      
This reminds me of an excellent talk my friend Dan Slimmon gave called "Car Alarms and Smoke Alarms". He relates monitoring to the concepts of sensitivity and specificity in medical testing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivity_and_specificity). Sensitivity is about the likelihood that your monitor will detect the error condition. Specificity is about the likelihood that it will not create false alarms.

Think about how people react to smoke alarms versus car alarms. When the smoke alarm goes off, people mostly follow the official procedure. When car alarms go off, people ignore them. Why? Car alarms have very poor specificity.

I'd add another layer of car alarms are Not My Problem, but that's just me and not part of Dan's excellent original talk.

falcolas 5 days ago 6 replies      
> Err on the side of removing noisy alerts over-monitoring is a harder problem to solve than under-monitoring.

Absolutely this. Our team is having more problems with this issue than anything else. However, there are two points which seem to contradict:

  - Pages should be [...] actionable  - Symptoms should be monitored, not causes
The problem is that can't act on symptoms, only research them and then act on the causes. If you get an alert that says the DB is down, that's an actionable page - start the DB back up. Whereas, being paged that the connections to the DB are failing is far less actionable - you have to spend precious downtime researching the actual cause first. It could be the network, it could be an intermediary proxy, or it could be the DB itself.

Now granted, if you're only catching causes, there is the possibility you might miss something with your monitoring, and if you double up on your monitoring (that is, checking symptoms as well as causes), you could get noise. That said, most monitoring solutions (such as Nagios) include dependency chains, so you get alerted on the cause, and the symptom is silenced while the cause is in an error condition. And if you missed a cause, you still get the symptom alert and can fill your monitoring gaps from there.

Leave your research for the RCA and following development to prevent future downtime. When stuff is down, a SA's job is to get it back up.

praptak 5 days ago 2 replies      
Having your application reviewed by SREs who are going to support it is a legendary experience. They have no motivation to be gentle.

It changes the mindset from "Failure? Just log an error, restore some 'good'-ish state and move on to the next cool feature." towards "New cool feature? What possible failures will it cause? How about improving logging and monitoring on our existing code instead?"

ChuckMcM 5 days ago 1 reply      
Great writeup. Should be in any operations handbook. One of the challenges I've found has been dynamic urgency, which is to say something is urgent when it first comes up, but now that its known and being addressed it isn't urgent anymore, unless there is something else going on we don't know about.

Example you get a server failure which affects a service, and you begin working on replacing that server with a backup, but a switch is also dropping packets and so you are getting alerts on degraded service (symptom) but believe you are fixing that cause (down server) when in fact you will still have a problem after the server is restored. So my challenge is figuring out how to alert on that additional input in a way that folks won't just say "oh yeah, this service, we're working on it already."

jakozaur 5 days ago 2 replies      
That's harder problem than I originally realized. It's easy to write noisy alerts, super easy to not have them (or not catching some issues).

It's hard to tune them so signal to noise ratio will be high.

jonbarker 4 days ago 0 replies      
Where I work, at a mobile ad network, they put everyone on call on a rotating basis even if they are not devops or server engineers. We use Pager Duty and it works well. Since there is always a primary and secondary on call person, and the company is pretty small and technical, everyone feels "responsible" during their shifts, and at least one person is capable of handling rare, catastrophic events. I often wonder which is more important: good docs on procedures for failure modes or a heightened sense of responsibility. A good analogy may be the use of commercial airline pilots. They can override autopilot, but I am told rarely do. The safest airlines are good at maintaining their heightened sense of vigilance despite the lack of the need for it 99.999% of the time.
leef 5 days ago 2 replies      
"If you want a quiet oncall rotation, it's imperative to have a system for dealing with things that need timely response, but are not imminently critical."

This is an excellent point that is missed in most monitoring setups I've seen. A classic example is some request that kills your service process. You get paged for that so you wrap the service in a supervisor like daemon. The immediate issue is fixed and, typically, any future causes of the service process dying are hidden unless someone happens to be looking at the logs one day.

I would love to see smart ways to surface "this will be a problem soon" on alerting systems.

shackattack 5 days ago 1 reply      
Thanks for posting this! I'm on the product team at PagerDuty, and this lines up with a lot of our thinking on how to effectively design alerting + incident response. I love the line "Pages should be urgent, important, actionable, and real."
gk1 5 days ago 0 replies      
Here's another good writeup on effective alerting, by a former Google Staff Engineer: http://blog.scalyr.com/2014/08/99-99-uptime-9-5-schedule/
Someone1234 5 days ago 9 replies      
Why does a company the size of Google even have call rotations? Shouldn't they have 24/7 shifts of reliability engineers who can manually call in additional people as and when they're needed?

I can totally understand why SMBs have rotations. They have less staff. But a monster corporation? This seems like lame penny pinching. Heck for the amount of effort they're clearly putting into automating these alerts, they could likely use the same wage-hours to just hire someone else for a shift. Heck with an international company like Google they could have UK-based staff monitoring US-based sites overnight and visa-versa. Keep everyone on 9-5 and still get 24 hour engineers at their desks.

ecaron 5 days ago 0 replies      
Here's the link to it as a PDF for anyone else wanting a printable copy to pin to their wall: https:/docs.google.com/document/export?format=pdf&id=199PqyG3UsyXlwieHaqbGiWVa8eMWi8zzAn0YfcApr8Q
AloisReitbauer 4 days ago 0 replies      
Good article. Alerting system unfortunately are still at the same level they where decades ago. Today we work in highly distributed environments that scale dynamically and we finding symptoms is a key problem. That is why a lot of people alert on causes or anomalies. In reality they should just detect them and log them for further dependency analysis once a real problem is found. We for example differentiate between three levels of alerts: infrastructure only, application services and users. Our approach to have NO alerts at all but monitor a ton of potential anomalies. Once these anomalies have user impact we report back problem dependencies.

If you are interested you can also get my point of view from my Velocity talk on Monitoring without alerts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqqb8zEU66s. If you are interested also check out www.ruxit.com and let me know what you think of our approach.

icco 5 days ago 0 replies      
This is huge. One of the big things dev teams benefit from bringing an SRE team onto their project is learning things like this and how to run a sustainable oncall rotation.
dhpe 4 days ago 0 replies      
My startup http://usetrace.com is a web monitoring (+regression testing) tool with the "monitor for your users" philosophy mentioned in Rob's article. Monitoring is done on the application/feature level -> alerts are always about a feature visible to the users.
omouse 5 days ago 0 replies      
This was very informative, I like the idea of monitoring symptoms that are user-facing rather than causes which are devops/sysadmin/dev-facing. I'm just thankful that my next project doesn't require pager duty.
annnnd 4 days ago 0 replies      
Can't access the site, seems like there's some quota on docs.google.com... Does anyone have a cached version? (WebArchive can't crawl it due to robots.txt)
0xdeadbeefbabe 5 days ago 2 replies      
So I guess the author uses a smart phone as a pager, but given his passion for uptime, reliability, latency etc. I wonder if he has experimented with an actual pager.
sabmd 4 days ago 0 replies      
Any alert should be for a good cause sounds good according to me.
wanted_ 5 days ago 0 replies      
Great article @robewaschuk :)

-- Marcin, former Google SRE

lalc 5 days ago 0 replies      
I just want to say: HN is bursting with great articles today.
peterwwillis 5 days ago 1 reply      
Most of this appears to be just end-to-end testing, and whether you're alerting on a failure of testing the entire application stack or just individual components. He probably got paged by too many individual alerts versus an actual failure to serve data, which I agree would be annoying.

In a previous position, we had a custom ticketing system that was designed to also be our monitoring dashboard. Alerts that were duplicates would become part of a thread, and each was either it's own ticket or part of a parent ticket. Custom rules would highlight or reassign parts of the dashboard, so critical recurrent alerts were promoted higher than urgent recurrent alerts, and none would go away until they had been addressed and closed with a specific resolution log. The whole thing was designed so a single noc engineer at 3am could close thousands of alerts per minute while logging the reason why, and keep them from recurring if it was a known issue. The noc guys even created a realtime console version so they could use a keyboard to close tickets with predefined responses just seconds after they were opened.

The only paging we had was when our end-to-end tests showed downtime for a user, which were alerts generated by some paid service providers who test your site around the globe. We caught issues before they happened by having rigorous metric trending tools.

jsmeaton 5 days ago 0 replies      
Stop it. Your spam is obvious.
djclegit 5 days ago 0 replies      
Very cool
zubairismail 5 days ago 0 replies      
In todays world, 90% of bloggers rely on google for their living
The Great Robocoin Rip-off: How We Lost $25,000 Buying a Robocoin ATM
571 points by metalab  3 days ago   128 comments top 37
nikcub 3 days ago 3 replies      
If you're wondering how you should do these types of transactions without putting cash up front, the field is called trade finance.

Call your bank - most of them have a trade finance desk, or Google the term. A slightly cheaper way of doing it is to have a lawyer draft a terms of trade or supply agreement with either the funds in escrow with the firm or a bank guarantee.

Having your bank finance the trade is worthwhile as interest rates are so low at the moment. Common terms are 60, 90 or 120 day delivery with FED/LIBOR + x% (where x is the risk profile of your business - shop around to get prices) cost over the term.

The agreement would contain delivery timetables, warranties, customs clearance, liabilities, indemnities, guarantees, who pays what, etc. and you are protected legally without handing over tens of thousands of dollars or more upfront. These contracts are protected by law in almost all jurisdictions.

You don't finalize the transaction and pay for it until all conditions have been met and you have the goods in hand and have verified. The seller is trusting an international bank or a law firm escrow, and they should also have a lawyer or bank on their end (a trusted seller can receive the cash upfront for a fee with the bank picking up the risk, although I doubt any bank would finance a bitcoin atm without verified trade volume and a lower risk profile).

Talk to your lawyer and talk to your bank, having expensive items delivered without risking the full cost is a solved problem as old as finance itself and trillions of dollars annually are traded in this way. The extra $1k or so you'd pay on a $25k deal are worth it for the guarantee. If you ship goods regularly the costs are amortized as you can use the same contracts and finance suppliers. Don't deal with anybody shipping $20k+ valued products that doesn't deal with a bank trade finance desk or law firm and is instead asking for a bank transfer.

This is how most high cost goods are traded - from oil and other commodity supply contracts through to companies like Boeing and Airbus supplying planes, or GE supplying turbines for a power plant. Most people without experience lead into it thinking that buying something that costs $25k, $100k or millions of dollars is just the same as purchasing something at your local store just with bigger numbers. It isn't.

Bitcoin multisig transactions, or m of n transactions are also worth investigating as they cut the costs - although there is currently a lack of escrow/intermediaries who are as trusted as major law firms or an international bank. There is a huge opportunity in cutting the costs and fees associated with trade finance with bitcoin.

kyledrake 3 days ago 1 reply      
I've helped work on Project Skyhook, which is a $1000 Bitcoin ATM: http://projectskyhook.com

Orders ship within 2-3 weeks. Shipping to Canada is no problem, customs is no problem. Assembly is in Portland, Oregon, so it's a quick ship to Vancouver. We've shipped hundreds of units.

Setup is completely on the owner's end. Owners don't need the company to configure the unit, and the company doesn't need to run servers for them. Skyhook ATMs use blockchain.com for the wallets (using accounts the owner creates independently), and the exchange price source is the owner's choice, all controlled through the interface. This isn't to avoid having a setup phase - it's to allow owners to have complete control over their money, because then it's a trustless system (the source code to the ATMs is open and auditable: https://github.com/projectskyhook).

I'm astounded at the prices on some of these ATMs. For $25,000 they could have ordered 24 Skyhooks (a little padding for shipping, which I believe can be palleted to save money). Bitcoin ATMs shouldn't cost the down payment on a house, IMHO.

Skyhook is also completely bootstrapped by the founders (no VCs) and a result of that (and careful burn rate management) is now profitable, despite the low price point. The cofounders have been using some of the money (and their free time) to help clean up and build out a new hacker/makerspace in Portland that's going to be awesome. Easily the best group of people I've ever had the privilege to work with.

I wish more people approached startups this way. There's a real pride to making companies on your terms that you control, and succeeding at it. Startups shouldn't be about overvaluing your company and having Kid Rock do a rock concert in your back yard.

Animats 3 days ago 3 replies      
The fraud level in the Bitcoin world is so high that it makes South Florida look good.

There's a working Robocoin ATM at Hacker Dojo in Mountain View, CA. Nobody uses it. Nor should they. 15% bid/ask spread, 5% fee.

Incidentally, the retail price for an ordinary ATM machine is $2,000 to $4,500, depending on the features ordered. A standard through-the-wall bank ATM is about $9,500. Even if you order every option from cash deposit through biometrics, they don't cost $25,000.

aleem 3 days ago 5 replies      
Jordan Kelley has posted his response on Reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_ro...

Judging from the replies, it seems to have backfired probably because he did not acknowledge the errors on his side (shipping a lemon, unresponsive over email and not having provided a refund yet).

Worse, he doesn't seem to realise that the name-and-shame was a result of his and ultimately RoboCoin's actions.

Edit: The correct response would have been to issue a refund immediately, acknowledge and apologise for the issue, highlight the trouble area (upstream supplier issues or whatever lead to this), and commit to solving or already having solved this problem for future clients + internal review of this mishap.

sgentle 3 days ago 1 reply      
"Just so we're perfectly aligned, I want you to understand the relationship that Robocoin has with our manufacturer. We are actually just a reseller of their kiosks with our software."

I've heard this from smaller retailers of all kinds of products and, as pointed out in Andrew's reply, it's complete bullshit. The company that took your money is the company you formed a contract with. Any nonsense about "yeah, but the manufacturer..." is a smokescreen designed to dodge responsibility.

(Wimpy disclaimer: this isn't legal advice and maybe it's not true if you live in Yemen or something, I dunno)

jmathai 3 days ago 4 replies      
Absolutely terrible.

I have the feeling that Jordan knows exactly what he's doing. The amount of $20,000 is a lot but it's not that much once you start to hire lawyers and file a suit or go into arbitration. Sounds like he's stringing them along waiting to see how much more cash they're willing to invest to recoup that $20,000.

Even worse Jordan might be setting himself up for a settlement of less than $20,000 where he keeps some of the money but knows it's a better offer for Andrew and Rajiv than hiring lawyers.

Been there. Done that. I'll never look at a purchase or legal document the same again. Jordan's got the upper hand here.

Blackthorn 3 days ago 0 replies      
I am shocked, shocked that a Bitcoin-related vendor was crooked.

Really, this story does totally suck for you guys but there should be absolutely zero trust or respect for anyone selling anything related to bitcoin at the moment. You're just begging to be ripped off.

cstrat 3 days ago 6 replies      
wow that sounds like a horrible experience!it is unfortunate that you got stung like that.

out of interest, what was the expected ROI?I mean, you sunk $25K into it.even if you were charging 5% fees - you would need half a million in transactions to break even, and that isn't including the monthly rental fee for the location.

is there really that big of a demand for BTC in a pub?

armenarmen 3 days ago 0 replies      
I was looking at going in on one of these with a friend. Thanks for the heads up. Good luck getting your money back, the whole thing seems hellish.
epaga 3 days ago 0 replies      
Robocoin CEO (Jordan) has responded here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_ro...
jhonovich 3 days ago 0 replies      
Important lesson for expensive capital goods: Pay upon delivery or net 30. Do not pay in full before shipment.
nashequilibrium 3 days ago 0 replies      
Wow and the ceo acts like he is killing it on twitter. If this is how you guys were treated,i guarantee you there is lots more. Thanks for going public as this will save a lot of other people time and money.
conductr 3 days ago 0 replies      
I used to place/sell regular ATMs. This Stuff sounds pretty standard for the industry. Nobody, even the biggest companies, seem to know what they're doing.
AYBABTME 3 days ago 1 reply      
Sad story but:

> Were prepared to take legal action, but we figured wed give Jordan a taste of internet justice first.

IANAL but, I don't think you're helping your case by seeking internet justice.

smileysteve 3 days ago 0 replies      
This type of experience is why I don't understand "No Chargeback" or "Replace the credit card" type marketing.

If I purchase this with my credit card and don't get the product before the price goes down, I have the option to cancel the order or get the lower price. If the product gets stuck in RMA or support is not as promised, I can chargeback.

The 'advantage' of bitcoin is that now I have to deal directly with the vendor, who is not my advocate.

tomaspollak 3 hours ago 0 replies      
funny thing: 'robo' in spanish actually means theft.
blt 3 days ago 1 reply      
First warning sign: smiley faces and hashtags in Robocoin's initial email responses. I would expect nothing but professionalism from someone who just sold me a $20,000 product.
vmp 3 days ago 4 replies      
Is it such a good idea to invest in something that's built on deprecated software (Windows XP)? And to handle money, no less.I'm a layman in regards to this, but is there a valid reason to choose XP over, lets say, a LTS Ubuntu release? Maybe some PCI ruling or something like that? Just seems strange and I've had a bad vibe ever since I read it.
lazyjones 3 days ago 0 replies      
I have had some dealings with fraudulent merchants (while running a popular price comparison site and dealing with customer complaints, criminal charges against mervchants etc.) in the past 14 years and my gut feeling with this is that this Jordan has already spent your money on his expensive lifestyle.

It's the repeated false promises and claims he makes in his e-mails that create this impression, for example the quick refund. A serious businessman only promises this if he can make absolutely sure that the customer will get it (and it doesn't matter that he wrote "we hope to ...", it's a clear message). I've also read Jordan's reddit posts, sounds fishy as hell.

tim333 3 days ago 0 replies      
I'm curious if anyone has seen a working Robocoin ATM? Jordan says on Reddit there are "65 out an live in the world"
ObviousScience 3 days ago 1 reply      
From my experience with one of their ATMs (both myself and two friends using it), they're incredibly error prone and not even shitty-ATM levels of usable. (I'm loathe to name locations, since the owners of the ATM are friends of mine and have dealt promptly with any problems I've had stemming from the ATM. They're often at the bar where it's located, as bar customers, and I've seen them deal with other upset ATM users. Great businessmen, bad equipment.)

That being said, it doesn't really surprise me that people with that poor of a user experience have poor customer service.

What is it about the bitcoin market that seems to attract less-than-ideal business practices?

josu 3 days ago 0 replies      
Jeff Berwick, one of the founders of the project withdrew from it back in May 2013.


skyjacker 3 days ago 4 replies      
Personally, I've tried five times to make small purchases with Bitcoin (this was several years ago). In all cases I was ripped off and never received product.

It's not going to be government regulations that kill Bitcoin, its the associations with illicit drugs, child pornography, and dishonesty of vendors like Robocoin.

AJ007 3 days ago 0 replies      
This wouldn't be the only company selling Bitcoin related hardware that probably should not be in business:


(Butterfly Labs)

hatty 3 days ago 0 replies      
Full refund processing.

"Hey [omitted], http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_ro...

It was really poorly handled. I take full accountability." -Jordan

tobiasSoftware 3 days ago 0 replies      
Was just reading the reddit thread and Jordan posted a picture of a transfer of $25000 to Andrew. However the details were not blacked out properly, you could see the address easily and could probably figure out the account numbers given a bit of time. The picture has since been removed.
jafingi 3 days ago 0 replies      
Wow, what a devastating story! Really feel sorry for you guys.I have retweeted your tweet.

But let this be a reminder that you should never pay the full amount up front.

Hope you will get in court with that smarmy Jordan Kelley.

wyager 3 days ago 1 reply      
I've heard nothing but bad reviews about these things from the user end as well.

I have no idea why one would buy a Robocoin machine when there are a number of evidently superior alternatives.

runn1ng 3 days ago 0 replies      
A Bitcoin - related company committing fraud and acting scammy? I am shocked.
joshmn 3 days ago 0 replies      
For things like this, I find great "relief" in using BananaTag (http://bananatag.com)
tyang 2 days ago 0 replies      
Next time pay using a credit card. :)
geobz123 3 days ago 0 replies      
Thanks for sharing.

That guy Jordan deserves to be brought in Justice.

kreinba 3 days ago 0 replies      
That is a really sad story...
lazyant 3 days ago 0 replies      
google "translate robo"
pearjuice 3 days ago 1 reply      
Meanwhile: Dorian Nakamoto - alleged Bitcoin founder - is trying to raise a fund because this whole Bitcoin entourage and goldrush has destroyed his personal life. Hopefully if Andrew gets a refund he will be so nice to donate a bit to The Dorian Nakamoto Legal Defense Fund.


everydaypanos 3 days ago 2 replies      
1. Going public on this shows lack of common sense, since the guy there said that contract had 0 refunds in it...

2. Expecting to pay $25k and pressing a button and then making $2k per month for eternity is NOT wise.

Skunk Works Reveals Compact Fusion Reactor Details
559 points by geophile  3 days ago   350 comments top 56
nabla9 3 days ago 11 replies      
I'm not seeing any top physicists working in this program (McGuire is not one). I would be willing to bet 1000 EUR that their math and modeling does not add up, or they have skipped some details.

Problem with fusion research like this is that the closer you get self sustainment or energy generation, the harder it gets and problems pile up. This project looks like many other similar projects that have gone bust. They start by solving the easiest problems first, get some funding and hit the wall.

The main problem with any reactor design is how to handle the 14 MeV neutrons produced by the fusion reaction (no mention in the article). They tend to damage the reactor and make it economically unfeasible. At this point being able to create fusion reaction is not the main challenge. It's the sustainment and economics of limiting the damage. If they really have solved all the problems and demonstrate economically sound fusion in 5-10 years, they will be handed Nobel price in physics for sure.

nerdy 3 days ago 4 replies      
I know there are some very smart people at skunk works who've done incredible things in the past but humans have cried wolf so many times on fusion it's sort of hard to just accept until they've actually built a working reactor, shown it and had it independently verified.
etiam 3 days ago 6 replies      
> U.S. submarines and aircraft carriers run on nuclear power, but they have large fusion reactors on board that have to be replaced on a regular cycle.

sigh To the extent this is true I suspect those "large fusion reactors" are tuned not so much for generating electricity and a great deal for annihilating whatever the carrying missile is pointed at.

But never mind fuzzy thinking at Reuters right now. This is amazing news if holds up. Fingers crossed.

ihnorton 3 days ago 2 replies      
Content-free article, but presumably it is this:


This is not the first time they have gone public with this - Charles Chase gave a talk at Google X last year, recorded and publicly-available:


Animats 3 days ago 2 replies      
This might work. It's from Lockheed's Skunk Works, which has a very good track record and tremendous respect in the aerospace community. With the basic physics laid out, this is mostly an engineering and construction problem. Their plan is to build and test a new prototype every year. The Skunk Works can do that; they've been doing it for decades. They're a manufacturer of prototypes, and have in-house capabilities for building things fast. They don't have to contract out much, and where they do, they have a contracting operation and supply chain they can rely on.
wcoenen 3 days ago 8 replies      
> 100-megawatt reactor measuring seven feet by 10 feet, which could fit on the back of a large truck

A typical thermal power station has an efficiency below 50% for electricity generation, so the plant dissipates at least as much heat as it generates electrical power.

I wonder how you could get rid of 100MW of waste heat from a volume small enough to fit on a truck. That's a heat flux of more than a megawatt per square meter of surface area.

27182818284 3 days ago 6 replies      
> could be ready for use in a decade.

That's the standard issue joke. "Nuclear fusion has been just ten years away for the last fifty years"

It is so common as a joke I'm surprised the article didn't mention it.

cmsmith 3 days ago 1 reply      
I'm not sure why this article is focusing on things like whether the reactor can fit on a truck, where you get deuterium, and how many coal power plants it can replace - instead of the actual question which is how they managed to produce a stable exothermal fusion reaction.
ChuckMcM 3 days ago 0 replies      
Interesting when you compare to the recent dynomak paper announcement[1]. The pointer to 'superconducting magnets' doesn't get a lot of ink though. I went by Fry's the other day and they were out of them :-) I wondered about them because to date such things usually are sitting in a cryogenic bath (think MRI machine) and not next to a million degree hot plasma. Even in the LHC there is a lot of space between the beam and the ring magnets. Dr McGuire in the article suggests -- We should be able to go to 100% or beyond, which is quite the challenge from the thermal management perspective.

It is however another great example that there is money going into lots of different fusion ideas. And that can only be a good thing as far as I am concerned.

[1] http://www.washington.edu/news/2014/10/08/uw-fusion-reactor-...

jburwell 3 days ago 1 reply      
This appears to be further development of the novel nuclear reactor approach described by Charles Chase at Solve in 2013 -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAsRFVbcyUY. The video provides a basic overview of fusion reactor designs and their breakthrough.
waterlesscloud 3 days ago 0 replies      
Makes YC's choice to invest in a fusion startup all the more interesting.


orkoden 3 days ago 2 replies      
>U.S. submarines and aircraft carriers run on nuclear power, but they have large fusion reactors on board that have to be replaced on a regular cycle.

I don't think so.

dmfdmf 3 days ago 2 replies      
25 years ago my nuke professor used to scoff at some of the claims of the fusion researchers. The problem is the high energy neutrons flying out of the reactor will neutron-activate every material within the vicinity. He thought the radioactivity and nuclear waste of a fusion reactor could be worse than a fission reactor. Also he thought that fusion researchers were vastly underestimating the problem of neutron embrittlement of the reactor structures and components. This is a very difficult engineering and material science problem that would have to be solved even if they did get the fusion process to work.
Everhusk 3 days ago 0 replies      
"The team acknowledges that the project is in its earliest stages, and many key challenges remain before a viable prototype can be built."

No doubt that Skunkworks is world class... but claiming a "breakthrough in fusion energy" before a prototype has even been built is pretty bold of them.

JohnnyLee 3 days ago 0 replies      
Based on the image of the machine, this is a magnetic mirror with neutral beam injection. Mirrors were some of the first plasma confinement devices. An issue they have is that they lose charged particles out the ends in a way that depends on the ratio of perpendicular to parallel velocity and the magnetic field strength. It may be that they think they can use the neutral beam injectors to inject the fuel in such a way that it's well confined in the machine...

Never mind, another linked article says that the injectors are only used for ignition.

ph0rque 3 days ago 1 reply      
> Initial work demonstrated the feasibility of building a 100-megawatt reactor measuring seven feet by 10 feet, which could fit on the back of a large truck, and is about 10 times smaller than current reactors, McGuire said.

So that would power 50k to 100k typical houses in the US... not bad!

leephillips 3 days ago 0 replies      
I wrote about this when the project was first revealed, in March 2013: http://lee-phillips.org/LockheedFusion/

I didn't find much to inspire confidence.

salzig 3 days ago 0 replies      
Sounds like the "Solve for x" talk from last year (2013-02-11)


robin_reala 3 days ago 3 replies      
the first reactors [] could be ready for use in a decade.

Im sure Ive heard that somewhere before

KhalilK 3 days ago 1 reply      
Meanwhile, work on an actual fusion reactor continues; http://www.iter.org/newsline/-/2020
mletonsa 3 days ago 0 replies      
Two of their patents were published few days ago:



Both have publication date 10/09/2014. Maybe connected with the press release?

startupfounder 3 days ago 0 replies      
"The early reactors will be designed to generate around 100 MW and fit into transportable units measuring 23 X 43 ft."[0]

These reactors will be similar to the Nimitz-class aircraft carriers and potentially only require refueling every 25 years through a process known as ROH.[1]

100MW capacity in the size of an international shipping container? The implications of this are massive if this technology can be brought to scale, and that is the key term - SCALE.

The cost of solar is plummeting and by the time fusion technology can produce 10% of our energy demand the cost of solar will be heading to $1/Watt, battery storage will be competitive and that is hard to beat even if the footprint is only a fraction of a solar farm.

[0] http://aviationweek.com/technology/skunk-works-reveals-compa...[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier#...

ridgeguy 2 days ago 0 replies      
This looks like a real thermal engineering challenge in one respect. The superconductive magnet coils are exposed to the neutron flux that transfers fusion reaction energy to the absorptive thermal blanket. I don't know offhand the neutron cross-sections of likely superconductor materials at whatever neutron energy spectrum this reactor will produce, but I suspect energy absorption by the magnet structure won't be small. I wonder how they plan to keep the magnets cold. Never mind the other effects on materials of high-flux neutron absorption.
al2o3cr 3 days ago 0 replies      
I'd love to know how they're planning on disposing of heat in the magnets themselves - most of the available high-current superconductors prefer to stay close to liquid helium temperatures, which is a challenge when you've set them next to a ten megakelvin plasma that's emitting a 100MW neutron flux...
karcass 3 days ago 2 replies      
It's exciting to see that fusion has gone from being perpetually 20 years away to being perpetually 10 years away. ;-)
peteretep 3 days ago 1 reply      

    > Lockheed shares fell 0.6 percent to $175.02 amid a broad     > market selloff.

peter_l_downs 3 days ago 0 replies      
Crazy. Vernor Vinge has an excellent short story called "Bookworm, Run!" [0] that, among other things, discusses the effects of cheap, clean, compact power being distributed around the world. In particular, it describes a wide-spread economic depression. Kind of interesting to think about, and definitely worth reading if you're into sci-fi.

[0]: http://books.google.com/books?id=tEMQpbiboH0C&pg=PA15&lpg=PA...

was_hellbanned 3 days ago 0 replies      
The ".NET Rocks!" podcast did three GeekOut shows this year on nuclear fusion, which will probably make you only more skeptical of fusion research claims.

Fusion Power GeekOut:http://www.dotnetrocks.com/default.aspx?showNum=1013

Fusion Power GeekOut #2:http://www.dotnetrocks.com/default.aspx?showNum=1022

Cold Fusion GeekOut:http://www.dotnetrocks.com/default.aspx?showNum=1037

hliyan 3 days ago 0 replies      
As someone who still remembers the excitement and the disappointment due to Pons and Fleischmann (I was a teenager at the time), I'm going to wait for independent verification. But I can't deny I'm a bit excited.
knappador 3 days ago 0 replies      
Aneutronic fusion would be lighter-weight, but it's good to see another concept we can learn something new from. There are two aneutronic fusion projects to look at. Polywell has become a Navy project last I heard and focus fusion (DPF) is working on an all-tungsten electrode, after which we might see the very first experiment without electrode contamination from arcing in the contacts vaporizing metal.
mrisse 3 days ago 5 replies      
From the article: Lockheed shares fell 0.6 percent to $175.02 amid a broad market selloff.

Shouldn't the market be a little more excited about this?

lnanek2 3 days ago 1 reply      
The article is completely wrong about US Navy ships having fusion reactors. They have fission reactors, not fusion. I wonder if they are even reporting the breakthrough right since they clearly don't know the difference. For all we know the breakthrough may be smaller fission reactors too, which isn't a big deal at all.
WalterBright 3 days ago 0 replies      
Makes me wonder if the modern Lockheed Skunkworks bears much relation to how Kelly Johnson ran it in the 50's and 60's.

Many companies have tried to set up a skunkworks since, but didn't have the guts to run it like Kelly did, and didn't get the results, either.

jacknews 3 days ago 2 replies      
Hmm, are they confusing fission and fusion?
jscheel 3 days ago 1 reply      
So, they've come up with a way to make a fusor that produces more energy than it consumes? Also, I'd be interested in knowing what kind of scram mechanism they develop. If the superconductors were to fail, the expansion of the plasma would be catastrophic, right?
adamzerner 3 days ago 5 replies      
I don't know much about fusion. It seems that the breakthrough they're talking about is that reactors are ~10x smaller. Why is this a big deal? Square footage is plentiful. I thought the problems are safety and how much energy it could produce.
silviorelli 3 days ago 0 replies      
What a coincidence.. Few days ago has been released the report on the alleged LENR/cold fusion E-Cat reactor...https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8436419
anigbrowl 3 days ago 1 reply      
On a tangent, is there any fundamental reason that reactors are always built to drive turbines rather thermocouples - do they simply not scale up to the amount of heat a typical reactor puts out, or what?
gpvos 2 days ago 0 replies      
Does anyone know how to get around the paywall?
csdrane 3 days ago 1 reply      
Can we assume that their reactor isn't energy positive? Because if it were, I would imagine that they would be announcing so--rather than this nebulous "breakthrough."
JustSomeNobody 3 days ago 0 replies      
Everything is always a decade away.

(And then it rarely happens)

aortega 3 days ago 0 replies      
IMHO the best thing is how they pitch this as a power source for carriers and military ships, that are mostly used to fight wars for oil. Well played, Lockheed.
ck2 3 days ago 0 replies      
nevermind, this is hype - buried in the article

The team acknowledges that the project is in its earliest stages, and many key challenges remain before a viable prototype can be built

This falls under the xkcd 10 year plan:

"we haven't finished inventing it yet, but when we do, it'll be awesome"


Tloewald 3 days ago 0 replies      
"Ultra-dense deuterium is an isotope of Hydrogen" (1) ultra-dense?, (2) and tritium which is denser (but hardly ultra-dense) and also an isotope of hydrogen.

Ah science reporting.

jacknews 3 days ago 1 reply      
Hmmm, are they confusing fission and fusion?
spellingnazi 3 days ago 1 reply      
For christ sake fix the title.
zwieback 3 days ago 0 replies      
Mr. Fusion!
vegabook 3 days ago 0 replies      
Ready Steady (govt) Grant!

"Partners in industry and goverment". Translation: 10 years to product (but hey, prototype in 5) so please give us lots of dough. It's the technology of the future and always has been.

higherpurpose 3 days ago 1 reply      
I guess that's somewhat game-changing. This, however, would be much more game-changing (if we can get confirmation once and for all whether it's real or not):


flexie 3 days ago 5 replies      
Here is more on the tech, including a drawing:http://aviationweek.com/technology/skunk-works-reveals-compa...
flexie 3 days ago 0 replies      
Here is a link with more info on the technology behind:http://aviationweek.com/technology/skunk-works-reveals-compa...
_-__--- 3 days ago 0 replies      
This title makes me engery
ck2 3 days ago 3 replies      
Very cheap energy means cheap war and lots of it. This could be bad.
problame 3 days ago 1 reply      
I'm happy if that is true, but guys: the first thing you think of is putting a potentially massive explosive on the back of a truck? Driven by humans? What could go wrong...
cowkingdeluxe 3 days ago 4 replies      
"McGuire said the company had several patents pending for the work and was looking for partners in academia, industry and among government laboratories to advance the work."

I'm guessing this means that they will try and maximize profit rather than maximize cheap and clean energy for the entire world. That is a bit disappointing if true.

bluedino 3 days ago 2 replies      
Then the dilemma becomes: Does the USA share this with other countries? Or do we keep our clean, plentiful power for ourselves, become energy independent, have clean skies, and keep (exploit?) this technological advantage over the rest of the developed world for the next 20-30 years?
Humble Mozilla Bundle
515 points by Osmose  4 days ago   117 comments top 13
laurent123456 4 days ago 5 replies      
With all these impressive advancement in browser technology, it looks like supporting non-qwerty keyboards in games is still a struggle. Or maybe developers aren't aware of the problem since no matter how big the game is, something as basic as keyboard controls is sometime completely wrong (at least on azerty keyboards). I don't know much about videogame development, but is it really difficult to somehow detect the user keyboard?
Osmose 4 days ago 3 replies      
If you're using Firefox and can't see the promotional game for this on about:home yet, go to about:home and open up the Web Console. Run "gSnippetsMap.clear()" and then clear your cache. When you refresh about:home, you should download the promo. Otherwise it should hit all Firefox users' about:home page within the next 24 hours.
ANTSANTS 4 days ago 2 replies      
I've sunk countless hours into FTL, this bundle is worth getting for that alone.
Touche 4 days ago 1 reply      
This is awesome! I love web games but the crap to quality ratio is really bad. It's hard to find good games. I hope Humble Bundle continues to create curated list of web games, not just 3D ones.
puzzlingcaptcha 4 days ago 2 replies      
OK, so how does it work. Native code compiled to asm.js somehow?
YokoZar 4 days ago 1 reply      
Some of these games use data files for user save data - what's the story with them? Do they migrate with, say, Firefox sync?
ZeroGravitas 3 days ago 0 replies      
I'm just glad Mozilla found an easy way to remind me that I like them and should give them some money.
dancole 4 days ago 4 replies      
>> Pay more than the average of $4.56 to unlock!

I find that to be an interesting idea, since the average will only increase over time.

androidb 4 days ago 6 replies      
That's a great package, but what I don't get is why the "mozilla bundle" name if this works just as well on Chrome?
Ygg2 3 days ago 1 reply      
For some reason the Aaaaaaa! for the awesome game has the screen blank out after a short while. I'm using Nightly, so that is probably expected. Anyone had similar problems?
TazeTSchnitzel 3 days ago 0 replies      
Anyone else unable to rename crew members in FTL? I can press backspace to delete characters in names, but not letters to add characters! (Firefox, OS X)
wildpeaks 3 days ago 0 replies      
Oh sweet there is a WebGL version of Osmos, loved that one on mobile a few years ago.
thisandthat 4 days ago 2 replies      
Does anyone know what javascript libraries they're using for games like voxeltron?
Nexus 9
478 points by agumonkey  3 days ago   157 comments top 23
Symmetry 3 days ago 1 reply      
Wait, they're using the 64 bit K1 as their processor? That's Project Denver[1]! I'm super excited to see how that thing benchmarks. This is basically Transmeta's Efficeon (same IP and team, even) with a bunch of improvements. They mentioned in the Hot Chips talk that they had made improvements like enabling native execution while the optimizer works - they benchmarks they provided said that it was very effective but I'm eager for third party tests.


EDIT: And here's Anandtech's article on Project Denver http://www.anandtech.com/show/7622/nvidia-tegra-k1/2

ChuckMcM 3 days ago 3 replies      
And of course the day before Apple announces its new iPad (allegedly). I really like having two very well funded companies in all out competition, it makes for some really great features and options in both products.

The size thing is what I'm interested in though. I'm waiting to see if there actually is a 12" iPad pro tomorrow, otherwise I'll pull the trigger on a Note Pro. I get the pocket/purse argument for 9" but my iPad has become pretty much a replacement book. Between 1dollarscan, Oreilly's drm free ebooks, and my pdf library of papers and data sheets, and various magazines, nearly all my space is being consumed by reading material. So for me (weird case I know) it is my library in my hand, and I really would like it to be a 12 - 13" screen.

That said, the Nook HD+ is my 'budget' 9" Android tablet that is my 'look up things' / 'play music' / 'cast netflix' device and this could easily replace that.

pisarzp 3 days ago 2 replies      
I was using this device for last couple months. It's by far the best tablet I've ever used. It feels great when you hold it and thank god for better aspect ratio! (compared to N7). I also have N10, but never really liked it, it was quite cumbersome to hold it. N9 feels much better in hands.

The thing I loved the most though was keyboard cover. It's narrow but you get used to it very fast. Typing on it was such a pleasure! I was not allowed to travel with this device but I could easily see myself just taking N9 instead of laptop for short trips.

zastrowm 3 days ago 1 reply      
The price is $400 [1], in case anyone else was wondering:

> Googles Nexus 9 goes up for pre-order on October 17th, and should hit the shelves on November 3rd. The 16GB model will go for $400, the 32GB for $480, and a 32GB model with LTE built in will set you back $600.

[1]: http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/15/google-nexus-9/

izacus 3 days ago 2 replies      
I love the 4:3 aspect ratio - after switching from iPad that was the thing that bothered me the most on Nexus 7 and Nexus 10 models. They were either not tall enough or too narrow for comfortable web browsing and reading (also, holding N10 in portrait was pretty tiring due to weight balance).

So finally having a good 4:3 Android tablet is good news for readers :)

AdmiralAsshat 3 days ago 3 replies      
Sad to see no SD card slot. I know that's not Google's thing, but Asus and Samsung have defied them in the past to include them in Nexus models and I was hoping HTC would follow suit.

That said, I hope this sells well. HTC badly needs some success.

taylorbuley 3 days ago 3 replies      
It bothers me that we've lost the meaning of "memory" in the technical marketing of mobile gadgets.

"Memory: 16 GB & 32 GB." Google, of course, means storage.

jbellis 3 days ago 2 replies      
Apple finally admitted that bigger phones are better. Looks like Google is finally admitting that 4:3 is the right tablet aspect ratio.

I'm kind of curious what the secret sauce is that makes Google think they are ready to sell a premium-priced tablet. Lollipop may be better than iOS 8 but is that enough to overcome the app gap?

(Anecdata: my wife had her ipad mini stolen last week. We have 5 Android devices in the house, but as long as Civilization is only available on iOS this isn't a serious contender for a replacement.)

Bud 3 days ago 3 replies      
They're releasing a big expensive tablet in 2014 and the top-end storage size is 32GB? Really?
zmmmmm 3 days ago 1 reply      
This marks an interesting if subtle change in direction for Google. Suddenly they are talking about productivity on their tablet and even including a keyboard. Also recently we've seen massive upgrades to the Google Docs suite of apps as well, after they long languished as almost comically useless on Android for a long time. Once again, it makes me question whether Pichai taking over has had the unexpected effect of boosting Android and making it into their premier platform across a range of form factors instead of what seemed before to be mainly pigeon holing it as a phone / small tablet platform mainly for entertainment. Interesting times.
cwal37 3 days ago 1 reply      
I assume this is the real, official end of the dream that I will ever get the case they initially showed off for my Nexus 10.

I enjoy the Nexus 10, but I really feel like I've kind of just been left in the cold. Android updates haven't been kind to the device in my experience.

WildUtah 3 days ago 6 replies      
So is it confirmed that there's no new Nexus 7? What is the best new alternative with some kind of clean Android mini tablet?
mattgreenrocks 3 days ago 5 replies      
Anyone have experience installing Linux on an Android tablet to use for development work? I'd love to use it with tmux/vim to hack on stuff.

Is battery life worth it?

tdicola 3 days ago 2 replies      
I'm impressed this is even lighter than the current iPad air (although it remains to be seen what happens with Apple's announcement tomorrow), and not by a trivial amount--almost 50 grams lighter. I've been a happy Nexus 7 user but am starting to feel I need a little bit bigger screen, and the 4:3 aspect ratio is much nicer for web browsing.
donniezazen 3 days ago 1 reply      
Where do you guys think Nexus 9 fits? I have gotten used to Nexus 7 for reading and Nexus 10 for writing/media consumption reading graphically rich stuff like magazine. Do you think Nexus 9 replaces both of those different types of works.
4ad 3 days ago 5 replies      
It has an arm64 CPU. It looks like this will be the first cheap, easily obtainable and hackable (?) arm64 hardware out there.

I'm writing the arm64 Go compiler. I wonder if it's feasible to start testing on this machine too (e.g. how open it really is, how hard is to get a sane working environment, etc).

davidw 3 days ago 0 replies      
My Nexus 7's battery went kaput, so this looks like it'd be a nice replacement. Overall, I'm quite happy to use the Nexus stuff: the experience is very consistent, and they get regular upgrades.
nutjob123 3 days ago 0 replies      
4:3 aspect ratio on an andriod tablet! This should be interesting.
superbaconman 3 days ago 2 replies      
What's up with keyboards that lack a right side ctrl key? Is it bad form to type using right-ctrl or something? Can someone shed some light on this? :\
imaginenore 3 days ago 0 replies      
Seems like a step back from Nexus 10.
benaiah 3 days ago 2 replies      
A bit suspicious that there's no resolution announced, especially considering the Nexus 10 had its resolution advertised ad nauseam from the day it was announced, and the Nexus 6 has its high resolution hyped up as well. It'll be curious to see if they've pulled back on the resolution arms race in favor of something like battery life or price range.
Zigurd 3 days ago 0 replies      
I'm aware that Nexus devices have lacked SD card slots seemingly as a matter of policy, but I still don't understand the logic of it for a tablet this powerful. You can buy micro SD cards with mind boggling capacity now. All the other specs are state of the art. And then you are limited to 32GB.
stormcrowsx 3 days ago 1 reply      
> The 8.9" screen is big enough to work and watch on, but small enough to carry around in one hand.

Really I could carry that in one hand? That's amazing! Know what else I can carry in one-hand? My fucking 17 inch macbook.

429 points by jashkenas  1 day ago   144 comments top 28
agwa 1 day ago 7 replies      
The state of things really does suck, and I'm trying to do something about it.

SSLMate [https://sslmate.com] sells SSL certs from the command line for $15.95/year. The sslmate command line tool takes care of properly generating the key and CSR, and properly assembling the certificate bundle containing the chain certificate. Certificates secure both example.com and www.example.com. No more hard-to-use websites or obscure openssl commands. I'm working on a config file generator too, so you'll be able to specify your server software and it will output a secure config for you.

And since the author mentioned out-of-process SSL termination, I'm also the author of titus [https://www.opsmate.com/titus/], an SSL terminator that is so paranoid it stores the private key in an isolated process (which would have been impervious to Heartbleed). It also solves the original IP address problem by using Linux's transparent proxy support - your web server sees the client's actual IP address even though the connection was proxied through titus.

IgorPartola 1 day ago 8 replies      
Here is my unsolicited and unprofessional advice for this type of site:

1. Set up HTTPS on every site you run. No, really. That static 10 page info site for your church group? Yup, get it set up! The no-CSS blog from 1991 (before they were blogs)? Set it up! Even if you don't use WordPress (god, please tell me you are not running WordPress without SSL), and your site never lets anyone POST/PUT/DELETE/PATCH to it, remember that what people are reading is just as important. If I can hijack your site at the local coffee shop and serve malware, your readers will not be pleased. If I manage to do this in a widespread fashion, Google/Bing will blacklist your site and nobody will get to it.

2. Get a free cert! The dirty secret is that all certs are basically equal (EV and wildcard notwithstanding, though they are an entirely different matter). There are at least two places to get decent free certs: StartSSL and CloudFlare. If you want to protect something but your 10 page church website, get a cert from Namecheap for $8/year.

3. Use HTTPS-only. TFA is a great example: it's posted on a blog that can be accessed by both HTTP and HTTPS. If you leave this configuration, it's almost as bad as not having HTTPS at all. People don't type in "https://...". They go straight to "example.com" or they'll just Google "example" and click on the first link. Set up your server to redirect from port 80 straight to the canonical HTTPS version of your site.

If you are unfamiliar with how to set this up: practice. Get a Digital Ocean box for a few hours ($0.10/hour) and a free cert from StartSSL. Use a random domain name you own (you'll need a proper second level domain, but chances are you have one parked somewhere) and try setting up a site. It'll cost you as much as a single stick of gum and you'll know that much more about how to do it.


4. Use a strong cipher suite such as this one: https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en-us/articles/200933580-W...

5. Use nginx, at least for front-end proxy. Your life will be easier.

6. Check your setup against https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html. Fix issues it highlights.

7. Don't lose your private key. Don't have it live only on the live server.

8. Use HSTS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_Strict_Transport_Security) but beware that once you have it set, you cannot go back to plain HTTP. For almost everyone this should not be a problem.

Karunamon 1 day ago 1 reply      
I fear SSL isn't going to see wide adoption by normal people until two things are done:

* It's easier to set up. Having personally been through the situation in the article a time or two in my life, it sucks, and there's no reason for it to suck.

* The prices stop being extortionate. 10x price differential for a literal 1 bit change in the final product to make a wildcard cert? Fuck you! Everyone mentions StartSSL. Sure, the basic certificate is free.. if you don't miskey your domain name.. or you don't select the wrong options.. or OpenSSL doesn't get owned, in which case you get to pay $15 for the privilege of their server spending a few milliseconds of CPU time to spit a few kilobytes of data back at you that represents the thing you already had.

PKI as it exists today is a fucking scam. It's a scam because it's overpriced, it's a scam because it's exploitative, and it's a scam because it's incredibly easy to do things that render the whole exercise pointless.

wolf550e 1 day ago 1 reply      
Unless I missed it, article does not say "use https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/ to test your setup", which I think is very useful advice.

Also, you might consider configuring your server to only support cipher suites that will be supported by TLS 1.3 [0][1] and let old clients get errors. If you need security, don't use the obsolete stuff the experts don't trust anymore.

0 - https://tlswg.github.io/tls13-spec/#rfc.section.1.2

1 - This means use only (ECDHE|DHE)-(RSA|ECDSA)-AES128-GCM-SHA256 and (ECDHE|DHE)-(RSA|ECDSA)-AES256-GCM-SHA384. No key exchanges that don't provide forward secrecy, no RC4, no CBC mode, no MD5, no SHA1.

j_s 1 day ago 6 replies      

  tells you how to use StartSSL, which generates the key in your browser.   Whoops, your private key is now known to another server on this internet
Pardon my ignorance, but I thought the in-browser certificate creation process avoids sending the private key.


http://www.jroller.com/whoami/entry/browser_generated_certif... 2006)

mike-cardwell 1 day ago 2 replies      
The process of adding SSL to a website could be 100% automated.

1.) Start the webserver

2.) Webserver: Oh look, I have a virtual host for example.com but no valid SSL certificate in order to serve https.

3.) Webserver: Generates a key+cert. Calls out to third party trusted SSL provider and says: "I control the website for example.com, please sign the following cert"

4.) SSL provider connects back to example.com to validate that the request for a cert is authorised, then signs the cert and gives it back.

This could work today, if a trusted third party SSL provider created such an API and Nginx/Apache were updated to talk to it.

Imagine if next time everyone did an "apt-get dist-upgrade" or a "yum update", their web servers suddenly started providing a HTTPS version of their site.

[edit] Step 4 is the equivalent of the way domain verified SSL already works today, except over HTTP rather than Email.

ef4 1 day ago 0 replies      
> Now you're presented with a bunch of pointless-looking questions like your country code and your "organization". Seems pointless, right? Well now I have to live with this confidence-inspiring dialog, because I left off the organization...

That's not right. Even if you supplied all those details in your CSR, you would not have solved this problem.

You bought the cheapest kind of certificate. Your "Organizational Unit" says "Domain Control Validated - RapidSSL". That's all it's ever going to say, no matter what you put in your CSR. Because the registrar did the bare minimum to test that you control the domain.

If you want a certificate that says anything more specific than that, you have to pay more money and provide more proof to the registrar.

Pxtl 1 day ago 2 replies      
What flabbergasts me is how much of this is what the gaming world would call "push this button not to die". That is, it's a question with a right answer and a wrong answer and no real other options or any reason you'd ever want to choose the "wrong" option. Intelligent defaults are supposed to take care of that sort of thing.
michaelbuckbee 1 day ago 0 replies      
It's even worse than that as even if all the above is actually correct and done perfectly that you may still not get the "green" depending on the browser as the browser makers are moving to showing domain validated (via email) certificates as gray and only EV (extended validation) certs as green.

Things to note: EV certs are much more expensive. You cannot get a cert that is both EV and a Wildcard, single domains only.

Screenshots of how the various browsers show Domain vs EV certs at:


iancarroll 1 day ago 2 replies      
Few comments:

1) StartSSL doesn't generate it in the browser (on a secure piece of hardware IIRC), which depending on your viewpoint is good/bad.

2) No CA will allow you to get a 1024 bit cert (you're correct)

3) You should be sending the GeoTrust Global CA cert because it isn't trusted everywhere, and if it's not sent you'll get errors before you get SNI/SHA1/SSL3 errors...

4) The "(unknown)" will always occur on FireFox, unless you have an EV certificate (even OV does not show this)

michaelmior 1 day ago 0 replies      
> So if you're Google, you friggin add your name to a static list in the browser.

It's worth noting that the Chromium project accepts URLs for inclusion into the bundled list of sites using HSTS. (This is shared with Chrome, Firefox, and Safari.)


madsushi 1 day ago 3 replies      
With StartSSL, you can actually generate your own key via OpenSSL (and you should) and then use that instead of doing it in the browser.
ochoseis 6 hours ago 0 replies      
I ran into issues deploying HTTPS this past week. Two things of note:

- Android is super strict with certificates...make sure you properly order your server and intermediates

- Check your site on: https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/. This helped me solve a lot of issues

yourabi 1 day ago 2 replies      
Yep - getting this right is hard.

Couple of points about the article.

Browsers verify SSL certificates for revocation (OCSP). This is an ongoing service that has a direct impact on latency - so SSL is an ongoing service very much like DNS. However, most people don't realize this.

Also you send in a CSR - certificate signing request - not CRT (which is usually short-hand for certificate).

Also it gets worse - A recent OpenSSL vulnerability would still allow SSLv3 even if it was configured with "no-ssl3": https://www.openssl.org/news/secadv_20141015.txt

This is why I built https://snitch.io - security and SSL secured sites in particular are moving targets and not "fire and forget". You really need an external process monitoring and auditing your secured site.

rll 11 hours ago 0 replies      
I still like StartSSL better than the other options. Yes, obviously opt out of having them generate your private key and CSR and upload your own. There is a big obvious "skip this" button there for that. To me the killer feature is that with class 2 validation ($60/year) you can generate as many 2-year certs, including wildcard as you want.
basher 1 day ago 0 replies      
Totally agree with the article, certs are a the biggest money making racket out there, and a pain in the ass. Certs should be issued with the domain by default no extra cost.
nichochar 23 hours ago 0 replies      
I installed SSL for my company's website last week (i'm a decent backend engineer and unix hacker). It BLEW my mind how difficult it was for me to:1) understand the problem2) find the best certificate issuer3) make the wildcard work

I 100% understand what happened to you and why you wrote this, and frankly I think someone should fix this. There's room for a great service here in my opinion

thenduks 1 day ago 1 reply      
It's this kind of thing that gave us such a quick transition to Amazon and 'PaaS' providers becoming ubiquitous. You can avoid all of these problems and decisions by just giving your various certificates and stuff to ELB or Heroku.
pja 18 hours ago 0 replies      
You can get StartSSL to sign a CSR that you generate locally, or at least you could when I generated the cert for my site with them.

This the only nitpick I have with this otherwise fine rant. Everything is broken, rejoice!

deanclatworthy 1 day ago 0 replies      
A great write-up on the problems associated with getting https up and running. It's no wonder huge swaths of the internet are unsecured. I recently had to set up SSL for a Facebook app at work, and jump through a lot of these hoops (whilst missing some too it seems).

So my question to HN is: What is being done to simplify this process and make it a simpler, more user-friendly process? (other than what Cloudflare have done).

kbuck 1 day ago 0 replies      
Configuring things is hard, and if you rely on Google to give you magic commands to execute instead of learning about what you're doing, you can really mess up.

If you don't have the time to spend properly administrating a system, don't do it; use a hosted platform so that someone else (who knows what they're doing) does it for you.

Fizzadar 1 day ago 0 replies      
This post speaks hits the spot - a perfect rundown of the (broken) SSL experience. Why do we still live in an age where security & identity are so tightly bound that to "secure" a site, you have to pay someone to "validate" your authenticity - which we all know, is bollocks anyway.
bensedat 1 day ago 0 replies      
If you'd like to test your SSL config against POODLE, we've updated our tester (https://www.tinfoilsecurity.com/poodle) to call out unsafe ciphers.
peterwwillis 1 day ago 2 replies      
It would be pretty frustrating to be dumped onto a highway in a stick shift and have to learn how to drive by googling for instructions in the car. That doesn't mean that driving is unnecessarily difficult.

Driving is only intended for people who have been trained and licensed to do so. Similarly, SSL certs are for people who have been trained on how to perform the tasks of a server admin, and presumably have read a 10-page ebook like How To Admin A Web Server.

Web servers in general are never supposed to be touched by the common user. They never were. Your server admin would set up a user account, and you'd dump your files in your ~user/public_html/ folder, and maybe if you were super clever you'd create a .htaccess file. The most complicated task a user ever was supposed to perform was to run "chmod 755" on the files in their /cgi-bin/ folder on their FTP site. All of this worked because an admin had to set everything up the right way and know how to do that.

So the next time you take on a technical hurdle you don't understand, I cannot stress enough how much more useful it is to either look up a good book on how to do it, or ask someone for help. It may not be as instant-gratification, but you'll get what you need done faster and understand it better.

claar 1 day ago 3 replies      
No need for that word in the headline.
evandena 1 day ago 0 replies      
Sounds like you should be using Blogger or some other hosted platform.
ibebrett 1 day ago 0 replies      
Honestly, this task is something that most people learn to do and just do. It's not nearly as complex as you are trying to a make it out to be.
kokey 1 day ago 0 replies      
It could be worse, he could have googled how to do something in php.
Reddit Acquires Alien Blue, the Most Popular Unofficial Reddit App
436 points by ajacksified  3 days ago   165 comments top 30
britta 3 days ago 11 replies      
I moderate a midsize subreddit where many of the 35k daily readers use Alien Blue, and this is a bit of a headache because Alien Blue makes it hard to find the subreddit sidebar, where we list important FAQs and rules. Our sticky post is dedicated to explaining how to find the sidebar in Alien Blue (http://www.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/comments/2ic349/how_to_see...).

I actually installed a bunch of other iOS Reddit apps to see if I could find one that supported sidebars better, so that I could officially recommend that app to my subreddit instead. The other ones didn't support sidebars at all though!

What I want most is for Alien Blue's tiny arrow buttons that lead to subreddit sidebars - http://i.imgur.com/ygWOV91.png - to be detail disclosure buttons instead, with a tiny "i" (https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/userex...). I believe that icon makes more sense and will help readers realize they should tap there for sidebar information.

spicyj 3 days ago 4 replies      
> One thing to note: if youve already downloaded the app, youll need to download it again a side effect of them transferring the app from Morriseys App Store developer account to reddits.

I was under the impression that Apple allowed transferring apps between accounts without wiping out the history

8ig8 2 days ago 0 replies      
smackfu 2 days ago 3 replies      
Maybe they'll dial back some of the quirkyness. I use it, but some stuff that should be really easy is messy, like subscribing to reddits. And their iOS 8 update (which was the first update in forever) has all sorts of "unique" interface ideas.
3rd3 3 days ago 6 replies      
They should buy the Reddit Enhancement Suite too.
Terpaholic 3 days ago 2 replies      
You can upgrade to Alien Blue Pro for free this week:


mirsadm 3 days ago 3 replies      
I use Alien Blue on my iPad Mini and it is the best Reddit app for iOS that I've tried. Oddly enough I find the Android Reddit Sync app to be quite a bit better and easier to use. I say oddly enough because it's probably the only category of apps where I've found the Android version to be better than the iOS.
TazeTSchnitzel 3 days ago 1 reply      
Remember when Twitter bought one of the more popular iOS clients, and ever since, people have just known of it as Twitter for iOS?

I think it'll just become Reddit for iOS. The default, official client. The one 90% use.

resca79 2 days ago 1 reply      
I love when a company acquires a small app or startup in general.Basically because it allows us to dream to build something that a big company can incorporate in some of its famous product or just it will become famous itself.

After an acquisition like that, I ask to myself :

Does Reddit have smart developers to build a mobile app like that?

Why do they need to do an acquisition to get a good app?

The questions seem trivial, Reddit has great developers, but looking forward the last acquisition by Apple( that never done before), I think that in the next future the company employees will be no single person, but startups.

netcan 2 days ago 2 replies      
I wonder if Reddit can, at this stage, have big hairy ambitions for what they might still become.

Thinking back about 8 or 10 years when "social networks" and online communities were becoming something obviously substantial there were a lot of excited ideas about what they would become. Ning's idea of basically extending forums and creating lots of online communities seemed attractive. When they're first taking on online communities are exciting. But, they seem to age. It's almost like being in the same conversation forever.

What can Reddit still accomplish?

rebelidealist 3 days ago 1 reply      
Is Reddit going to make Jason Morrissey move to SF from Melbourne?
EricBart 2 days ago 2 replies      
I'm probably in the minority, but on mobile I use i.reddit.com

What's the future for that?

cjbarber 3 days ago 2 replies      
Reddit is a vital product in my life.

Necessary move by reddit. If someone was going to be able to compete with reddit, and succeed, Alien Blue had a very good shot.

Cool to see reddit making moves since their new round of funding, too.

Semi-related segue: Since this $50mm funding round happened, I've recommended to a couple people that they apply for jobs at reddit. [1]

Reddit has maintained impressive growth since 2005. I'm expecting them to be doing very interesting things over the next 5-6+ years.

[1]: http://www.breakoutlist.com/reddit/

untog 3 days ago 1 reply      
Reddit is following the Twitter path, then. I wonder if they'll end up blocking other third party clients some day.
epmatsw 3 days ago 2 replies      
Awesome for the developer, totally deserving. Alien Blue is pretty unmatched IMO, and I've spent forever looking for anything even close to it for Android. Flow is the closest I've found, but it's not supported any more :( I'd love to see them port Alien Blue, but I don't think the UX would fit very well on Android unfortunately...
skrowl 2 days ago 0 replies      
Title misleading. "The most popular unofficial reddit app FOR iOS" (which is 1/5th as used as Android).

Presumably there are more popular unofficial reddit apps out there when you start counting Android.

MrBra 2 days ago 4 replies      
Just a note to check if there are any like-minded people:

Everytime I approach Reddit, I got a feeling of being overwhelmed by the interface complexity, to the point that a part of me wants to know more and finally get to use it, and another part, simply feels frustrated. The latter has always won so far, even after forcing me to create an account.

It just doesn't click with me. And I don't want to read no freaking 101 guide, because a clearly done interface needs no guide.

Anyone feels like that?

needle0 1 day ago 1 reply      
I'm reminded of the time when Twitter bought Tweetie and its developer to make it its official iOS app. Sure hope it won't follow similar paths.
mmahemoff 3 days ago 1 reply      
Reddit launched their own first app just last month. I wonder if they'll be closing down AMA now that they've negotiated this deal.http://www.redditblog.com/2014/09/announcing-official-reddit...
frewsxcv 3 days ago 1 reply      
Any word on whether it will be open sourced? I'm satisfied with my current app I use with reddit https://github.com/QuantumBadger/RedReader which is open source
PiracyIsAwesome 2 days ago 0 replies      
Reddit is complete garbage , filled with heavy moderation from all sides , your mods , your admins , your mod bots , and the community of reddit , and finally the shadow bans designed to waste your time for a LOL.

It's the absolute worst place to post anything you want to say. I don't know why people keep using it.

Reddit also likes to spam top youtube videos with solicitation attempts to get people to go to reddit.

pknerd 2 days ago 0 replies      
Great. I use Alient Blue day and night on iPad and without any doubt it's an awesome Reddit Client.
hiby007 3 days ago 0 replies      
Congratulations to the developer.
nitin_flanker 2 days ago 0 replies      
Now Jase can make it even more awesome.
xasos 2 days ago 0 replies      
Flow is a really good Android reader.
aikah 2 days ago 0 replies      
Congrats to Alien Blue,their app is great!
notastartup 3 days ago 0 replies      
how much was it acquired for? Undisclosed figure of Reddit Gold.
bubble_boi 3 days ago 1 reply      
They should buy http://www.bubblereader.com/ too!
craigching 3 days ago 3 replies      
Ugh! Ok, I shouldn't complain, but I originally chose the iAlien app only to run into the scam that that developer put on by claiming a takedown based on the name by Alien Blue (IIRC, I'll try and provide a source if someone requests it) requiring users to buy the new app. I was really happy with iAlien, but I wasn't going to pay the extortion for the "new" app.

Only about 6 months ago I bought Alien Blue + Pro, now I have to do it again.

It appears that if I get it this week I will probably be able to save $4, so that's good, but I feel a bit scammed by the iAlien developer that I don't trust some of these apps anymore. I do trust that reddit is a good thing, so I'm probably set from here on out.

And, in the end, I know it's only $8, but I hate being scammed, it's the principle.

Alien Blue is a good app so I'm happy for Jase the developer and I forget why I originally chose iAlien over Alien Blue now, but hopefully we get some good advancements in the mobile interface which is my primary means of accessing reddit.

EDIT: Adding links to controversy here as well:



Docker and Microsoft partner to drive adoption of distributed applications
444 points by julien421  3 days ago   262 comments top 26
amarraja 3 days ago 5 replies      
This is hands down the best news I have heard in the MS development space in a long long time.

We have 3 apps over 32 servers and 5 environments, and operationally it's like pulling teeth. This has the chance to change everything!

nickstinemates 3 days ago 8 replies      
Nick Stinemates @ Docker here. I run BD/Tech Alliances. A lot of blood and sweat went in to this one! I'm here to answer any questions you may have about the announcement, the details, or anything about Docker.
jimmcslim 3 days ago 3 replies      
Also announced by Microsoft:


"Microsoft Corp. and Docker Inc., the company behind the fast-growing Docker open platform for distributed applications, on Wednesday announced a strategic partnership to provide Docker with support for new container technologies that will be delivered in a future release of Windows Server."

I strongly suspected that Windows Server vNext would have some sort of 'container' support after the wild success of Docker.

Rapzid 2 days ago 1 reply      
Reading the comments, this is the official announcement of the bifurcation of the docker ecosystem. This completely shatters docker's original promise of a universal application container. Now we will have standard gauge cars that won't run in the South. Maersk containers that can't be shipped on MSC.

Congratulations to MS though, I think this is a good initiative. Not sure why you even need a partnership with docker TBH as they didn't create the underlying OS technologies that make containerization possible on Linux.. But, with the acquisition of Mojang it is apparent MS is placing a lot of emphasis on acquiring mind share.

micah_chatt 3 days ago 3 replies      
Theoretically I'm guessing this could enable multi-platform gaming? Ex: "Download this docker image, and play our game: Windows or Linux, or boot2docker Mac!"

Secondary, a native Darwin Docker server would be killer.

The mobile implications could be huge if this made it out of Windows Server.

valevk 3 days ago 4 replies      
Would be awesome to have Microsoft Office as Docker container.
megaman821 3 days ago 4 replies      
What would a base Windows image look like, just a PowerShell prompt? How would you use the build file to install your dependencies without a package manager?
johngossman 3 days ago 1 reply      
John Gossman from Microsoft here. I'm an architect on the Azure team and have been working with Nick and others from Docker. Happy to answer questions.
randomsearch 3 days ago 1 reply      
Great move for MS.

Not sure this is a good idea for Docker though. Doesn't it mean they lose their focus on Linux? Seems to complicate things a lot, and potentially introduce conflicts when prioritising what to do next. Simple is good. Serving a closed source operating system looks unwise, given the nature of their business.

ed_blackburn 3 days ago 1 reply      
This has been coming for a while, because it screams common sense..however with Microsofts previous I'm still a little surprised.

I wonder if Steven Sinofsky would have been game for this?

A lot of Windows developers use commercial Windows for development (i.e. Win7) with these features I anticipate more developers using (the more expensive) Windows Server.

If your build output could be a container (VS build process?) that you can ship, or as in a lot of "enterprise" organisations pass on to QA / UAT then this is a big deal and a massive huge step.

tkubacki 3 days ago 1 reply      
Things like this make me wonder if Windows (Server) ecosystem will be able to compete with Linux in long term.

I do realize corpo-world is filled with Windows Servers now but it seemed Linux/Docker could change this with containers as a 'standardized server app format' with super easy provisioning process.

Now since Windows will get more or less the same - Linux/Docker and Windows/Docker will compete on tools and raw perf.

NicoJuicy 3 days ago 1 reply      
How does the licensing work for Docker (Apache2 license, i know... It's more about the pricing behind it) together with Windows? I can't seem to find any info about this. I don't assume Windows is suddenly free of charge. The Windows virtualization licensing isn't obvious anyway: http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/about-licensing/virtualiz...
geertj 3 days ago 1 reply      
Does this change one of the fundamental tenets of docker, namely that docker images are portable (thanks to the linux kernel providing a very high degree of backwards compatibility).

In order words, will there now be Windows images and Linux images, and Windows images will run on Windows hosts and Linux images on Linux hosts?

yarrel 3 days ago 0 replies      
Partnering with Microsoft [almost] never ends well.

Good luck to Docker.

discardorama 3 days ago 1 reply      
Is this the "embrace" step of "embrace, extend, extinguish"?
alisnic 3 days ago 1 reply      
very smart move from Microsoft's part.
mrmondo 3 days ago 0 replies      
I really hope this doesn't distract from Linux development - there are a number of bugs that have been hanging around for some time without updates now.
UnoriginalGuy 3 days ago 1 reply      
> To me, this makes it sound like Microsoft is slowly starting to join the rest of planet earth, and adding features to its OS kernel to make it more Unix-like

Could you be more specific, what "features" precisely? Windows NT already takes a lot of concepts from traditional UNIX kernels and builds on them (unlike, for example, Windows 9x).

> From what I remember, Windows Server is already a step in that direction, but Microsoft hasn't advertised much of that functionality so far, maybe in order to maintain customer lock in.

Could you be more specific, I know a lot about modern Linux and Windows Server, and that comment is mysterious to me. Are you talking about the deprecated UNIX Services for Windows which has existed for well over fifteen years?

edwintorok 3 days ago 1 reply      
The site apparently only accepts RC4 as the cipher, I get: Error code: ssl_error_no_cypher_overlap
Akkuma 3 days ago 1 reply      
I wonder how this will impact spoon.net, since they recently launched their windows container tech.
tonyplee 3 days ago 1 reply      
What kind of Windows server/kernel features does Docker need/want/like from MS?
hamiltont 3 days ago 1 reply      
DockerHub-based Windows Package Manager - coming soon to an OS near you
ilaksh 3 days ago 1 reply      
It mentions extending Docker to support numbers of distributed Docker containers. I am building a PaaS around Docker so can I get a hint how that will work? I would rather add value than duplicate an existing effort.

Is it something like an integration of Mesos, Fig and Docker?

jokoon 3 days ago 0 replies      
microsoft has been cornered for a long time, it has lost many ooportunities, glad it's not reacting.
antocv 3 days ago 2 replies      
Worst news ever.

Docker people will spend more time fixing and making bugs due to Microsoft, the documentation will become a mess (it cant possibly be same documentation for that different systems), the Linux-side of docker will be more mediocre compared to what it could have been if all effort went to it.

Remember Internet Explorer 6, Visual Basic, the horror that is Excel and the whole Office suite, Asp.net, Windows Millenium, The attempt to kill Linux by Microsoft through SCO.

SlipperySlope 3 days ago 1 reply      
Microsoft is going about this the wrong way. They should adopt GNU/Linux, supporting containers, file systems, etc. as their kernel, and then add the proprietary Windows layer on top, e.g. WINE.

Otherwise existing Dockerfiles will not build on Windows - right?

The Emails Snowden Sent to First Introduce His NSA Leaks
424 points by secfirstmd  5 days ago   108 comments top 6
noir_lord 5 days ago 6 replies      
> Assume your adversary is capable of one trillion guesses per second

Jesus, one trillion passphrase checks a second.

Well I know what I'm changing this afternoon.

> My personal desire is that you paint the target directly on my back. No one, not even my most trusted confidant, is aware of my intentions and it would not be fair for them to fall under suspicion for my actions.

Snowden has always had my respect but the more I read the more he has my admiration as a person.

iandanforth 5 days ago 0 replies      
Somehow these emails were more powerful, personal, and meaningful than all the previous coverage. It's you they are watching and it's you they are watching all the time. Reading these emails I imagine they were addressed to me and there's no way to avoid feeling like you're under a microscope. Even when you snap out of it and remember the emails aren't addressed to you, you then have to remember they apply to you, they could have been addressed to you, and yes, you really are being watched.
joelanders 5 days ago 2 replies      
I wonder how they "confirm[ed] out of email that the keys we exchanged were not intercepted and replaced by your surveillants." Key exchange is the hardest part.
desdiv 5 days ago 7 replies      
Does anyone know if "Citizen Four" (what Snowden signed his first email with) is a reference to anything?
ck2 5 days ago 3 replies      
Let's also take a moment to remember James Risen who will likely be sent to prison in January for exposing what the NY Times refused to print.

(and of course Manning who will be left to rot for the next 35 years by each president)

alimoeeny 5 days ago 0 replies      
Chilling, very chilling.
OS X 10.10 Yosemite: The Ars Technica Review
400 points by Braasch  2 days ago   221 comments top 27
smutticus 2 days ago 18 replies      
None of these reiews answer the one question I always want answered; will this cause my MBP to crash more often than 10.8.5? I have all the features I need, I want fewer GPU panics.

I know these reviewers cannot answer this question, I just want to point out that it's the only relevant question for me. Given Apple's track record, this release will most likely cause my MBP to crash more often, but I want data on that. I want a review to actually explore this angle as opposed to simply talking about features that honestly mean nothing to me.

Osmium 1 day ago 2 replies      
Somebody asked in another thread about Yosemite's new Hypervisor:

"Hypervisor (Hypervisor.framework). The Hypervisor framework allows virtualization vendors to build virtualization solutions on top of OS X without needing to deploy third-party kernel extensions (KEXTs). Included is a lightweight hypervisor that enables virtualization of the host CPUs."

Any news on if anyone is actually using this yet? Stability matters a lot more to me than raw performance in VMs, so I'd be very keen to know if Parallels/Fusion/VirtualBox have adopted this--assuming that it would actually improve stability or, if not, what the pros/cons are for using Apple's own Hypervisor over a third party's.


sxates 2 days ago 6 replies      
What's missing here for me is some kind of performance evaluation. If I upgrade my 2011 MBA from Mavericks to Yosemite, should I expect any change in performance, for better or worse? Did the power management change in any significant way?

Apple's mobile OSs have a way of obsoleting older hardware. I'm curious to know if their desktop OSs are trending that way as well, or if they're making performance gains instead.

wiremine 2 days ago 2 replies      
Off topic from the review but handy since people were talking about crashing:

Learned a cool trick tonight: Yosemite was taking a while to install, so I did some googling and learned you can see the installer's log by typing CMD-L during the install process.

dutchbrit 2 days ago 3 replies      
I really don't like the new design. The dock bar looks weird to name one thing, also the new buttons, bars and the window design is just ugly and plain (it feels like a Linux flavour trying to look like OS X designed by someone's neighbour's kid) - don't let me even mention the folder icons. Photoshop stalled once but that's the only quirck I've had in the past 2 weeks of using the beta so that's not too bad. Design wise however, I don't feel like this is a good replacement. Have to admit that iOS 7 did grow on me and I felt the same about that back then but I don't think the same will happen in this case.
locomoco 2 days ago 1 reply      
Anyone know how to turn off the Macbook pro screen with the lid open while using external monitors? On Mavericks this worked just fine:


Now no dice... anyone know a way to keep the screen off with the lid open?

To execute in Terminal:

sudo nvram boot-args="iog=0x0"

To undo in Terminal:

sudo nvram -d boot-args

Once you type it into terminal I believe you need to enter your password. I then restart my machine. Now the TRICK is to either restart your machine with the lid already closed (hit restart then slam the lid!) OR turn the machine on for the first time (then quickly slam the lid!) once you are past the login screen you can open the lid.

tlo 2 days ago 0 replies      
If you want to do a fresh install, you can create a USB install drive: http://arstechnica.com/apple/2014/10/how-to-make-your-own-bo...
mlex 2 days ago 0 replies      
"...If Retina desktop Macs still havent been announced by the time you read this, Apple had better hurry up."

Near the bottom of page 3, just thought it was funny considering today's 5K iMac announcement.

tehabe 1 day ago 0 replies      
I tried it yesterday and for the first time I downgraded my Mac back to the previous version. I think Yosemite wasn't made for my 2009 MacBook Pro. It works w/o a problem but the font is really hard to read, in the sense it is an exhausting experience.

What is funny about Yosemite, many dialog boxes remind me of KDE.

72deluxe 1 day ago 0 replies      
Very informative review, particularly the part regarding Swift towards the end, although I did feel like he was going over the changes in a perfunctory manner as opposed to the Mavericks review.

Anyway, it did help me know what to expect in Yosemite so thanks John.

I also discovered the "purple" full screen button from yesteryear - I much prefer that to the fullscreen arrows in Mavericks, and dislike the new default "FULLSCREEN" behaviour of the zoom button. Fullscreen makes the menubar and all that sits in it (MenuMeters, clock etc) useless. On a laptop, the indicator about the battery is kind of important to me, and I don't find the clock distracting or require it to be removed in order to help me read text on other parts of the screen. I think it is a foolish move.

dopamean 2 days ago 1 reply      
The upgrade to Mavericks totally borked my Displaylink adapter that I use to plug an extra monitor in. After some updates its finally stable but still not great. I'm afraid to upgrade again because who knows what will happen.
cdbattags 2 days ago 2 replies      
I actually read this all the way through... Quality writing.
matt-attack 1 day ago 0 replies      
I find the new Spotlight to be quite painful. Apple again, makes design choices not based on improving the quality but just because they feel they need to keep changing things.

They've done two things wrong with Spotlight. By moving it down from the top of the screen, that immediately reduces the number of results that can be seen. Then if that wasn't enough they further limit the quantity of visible results by not allowing results to flow to the bottom of the screen. A double whammy if you will.

I can live with a slightly slower experience (yes, my indexing is done) but reducing the result count for absolutely no good reason is unacceptable.

And yes, I know I can scroll down.

Edit: Oh and while I'm complaining, please tell me which one is selected: http://i.imgur.com/Szj3Yag.png

l33tfr4gg3r 1 day ago 2 replies      
I'm on a 2013 MBP and I upgraded to Yosemite yesterday. It was a textbook upgrade for me - zero hassle and everything works just as it should (so far anyway). A couple of quirks I've noticed vs. Mavericks is that a) the animations seem to stutter sometimes - I almost never had that with Mavericks. Perhaps since this is 10.10.0 that's to be expected but hope they fix that to buttery smooth in the performance update down the road. The other thing is RAM usage seems to have gone up significantly. I used to average around 2-3 GB used out of 8GB and now I find 5GB used - I haven't installed any additional software or tweaked any configuration settings - this is purely a Mavericks --> Yosemite in-place upgrade. Its still early hours so I've yet to explore the system fully, but apart from these 2 things it seems fairly solid so far. Contrary to the other comments, I don't quite seem to mind the full screen mechanics, although I would not have minded a '+' button and more discernible buttons in general.
deepforg 1 day ago 2 replies      
I can accept almost all of the UI changes but these horrible blue folders.
jimeuxx 2 days ago 0 replies      
I hope developers make good use of the changes to the title bar. It completely breaks the flow of the design of a lot of apps, and kills precious vertical space on my 13-inch MBP. A keyboard shortcut to toggle the menu bar would've been nice too. Neither of those would be big issues if it weren't for the slow, eye-melting, completely superfluous fullscreen animations though.
blisterpeanuts 2 days ago 2 replies      
Upgrading now: 5.16 gigs. Hah! This is going to take all night. Looks like everyone's downloading it at the same time.

I was quite impressed by 10.10 from the Keynote a few weeks ago, and I'm looking forward to experiencing some of that. No iPhone so can't enjoy that level of integration, but perhaps my iPad will be happier.

Meanwhile I have a Nexus 5 on order, and I'm debugging problems with my Linux PC's new motherboard. Certainly Linux on a roll-your-own hardware platform is a different world from the slick, smooth Apple experience. I like both for what they can do but the Apple is becoming my go-to front end while the Linux machine is becoming more of a server and back-end tool.

Shivetya 1 day ago 0 replies      
Just a personal note.

I really don't need the grays/white/blacks of past operating systems. The initial setting for my quick bar just looks horrid, little icons on a dark gray background.

Everything looks so 16bit. I understand it bleeds through the background color, I would just prefer to have no background on the dock and have the icons float

ksk 1 day ago 0 replies      
Have they improved the Mac App Store updates yet? It shocks the mind to think that forcing users to re-download entire apps rather than just the stuff that's changed is apparently a hard problem to solve for Apple.
hsshah 2 days ago 0 replies      
Does anyone know if Mail app now supports "cloud" search for Gmail? i.e. you don't need to download ALL your Gmail to local machine to be able to search. My SSD is quickly getting filled up and this is becoming one huge pain point.
super_mario 1 day ago 0 replies      
Absolutely ugly and tasteless design. Default theme is hideous black bold font on white background, large swaths of white everywhere. Dark theme is just inconsistent. Window titlebars are pale whitish, with black menu bar with white font on it.

Dock, is 2d until you roll over it, then icons pop out of it and it looks like it is 3d.

This is it, Apple is the new Microsoft. Frankly, and I can't believe I would ever be saying something like this but Windows 7 now looks better and more consistent.

k_bx 1 day ago 0 replies      
I really hope it has dark theme as I imagined it to be, since current light-grey really distracts me when programming in dark theme editor/terminal.
blackkettle 1 day ago 2 replies      
Mavericks is not an obscure surfing destination.
dman 1 day ago 0 replies      
On my 2013 Macbook pro the wifi seems to be exceptionally slow after upgrading to Yosemite. Seeing speeds < 600K after the upgrade. Usually see ~6 MBps.
vacri 2 days ago 4 replies      
I can't wait for the 'flat' fad to be over.
mohamedattahri 1 day ago 0 replies      
Just installed it. It freed 7GB on my Macbook Air's flash drive. Nice!
goeric 2 days ago 0 replies      
My camera on my 2013 Retina Macbook Pro doesn't work post-upgrade, FYI.
This POODLE bites: exploiting the SSL 3.0 fallback
389 points by ch0wn  4 days ago   102 comments top 28
tptacek 4 days ago 2 replies      
I'm not entirely sure, because I'm in a car waiting to pick up my daughter from play practice while I consider it, but I think this is worse than BEAST. It's slower, but it's easier.

POODLE seems to be a padding oracle based on SSL 3.0's inability to fully validate padding. The oracle only gives you the last byte of a block; a full extended padding oracle gives you successive bytes, but this vulnerability doesn't. The authors sidestep that problem by using application-layer control of the boundaries of blocks to repeatedly line up the byte they want to learn with the last byte of padding the vulnerability reveals. C l e v e r !

The difference, I think, between POODLE and BEAST is that BEAST needed not just blockwise "chosen-boundary" control over plaintext, but also a continuous channel that would provide the client with fine-grained control over the first N bytes of each request. It didn't work (IIRC) with vanilla Javascript.

This attack, however, seems to.

brians 4 days ago 3 replies      
Apparently independently discovered by Thomas Pornin with a few hours of work: http://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/18151930#18...

We saw this with Heartbleed too: given sure confidence that there is a vulnerability in a particular diff, skilled security researchers can find it very quickly. It makes me want to find such and firmly tell them that there are vulnerabilities in TLS 1.2.

xt 4 days ago 6 replies      
Here's relevant nginx configuration to disable SSLv3:

  ssl_protocols TLSv1 TLSv1.1 TLSv1.2;  ssl_ciphers EECDH+AES128:RSA+AES128:EECDH+AES256:RSA+AES256:EECDH+3DES:RSA+3DES:EECDH+RC4:RSA+RC4:!MD5;  ssl_prefer_server_ciphers on;
This ciphersuite is recommended by CloudFlare.

cesarb 4 days ago 1 reply      
Mozilla is going to disable SSL 3.0 by default in Firefox 34: https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2014/10/14/the-poodle-atta...
turingbook 4 days ago 0 replies      
Adam Langley from Google explained this in more details https://www.imperialviolet.org/2014/10/14/poodle.html
AbeEstrada 4 days ago 2 replies      
Disable SSLv2 and SSLv3

For Apache:

SSLProtocol all -SSLv2 -SSLv3

For Nginx:

ssl_protocols TLSv1 TLSv1.1 TLSv1.2;

Source: http://blog.rlove.org/2013/12/strong-ssl-crypto.html

jerf 4 days ago 3 replies      
Check me on this: The TLS_FALLBACK_SCSV will prevent downgrade attacks, yes. However, any "real" SSLv3 connections will still be SSLv3 and still fully vulnerable to the described attack. Downgrading is not a necessary component of the attack, it just increases the number of vulnerable client/server combinations to include those that would normally not be vulnerable due to negotiating TLS1.0+. Therefore, if you are in a position where you truly care about security and the fact the SSLv3 has such an enormous hole in it is unacceptable, you should still be looking at simply turning off SSLv3 as the only acceptable mitigation, even if that does cut some clients off.


(Except please note for the purposes of this question I'm assuming as a given that cutting off SSLv3 is considered preferable by the entity in question to a very weak SSL negotiation. Whether or not any given entity should have that opinion is a different question; I politely ask that you get into that question elsewhere.)

pjl 4 days ago 1 reply      
If you're using AWS' ELB, Amazon has already added a new Predefined Security Policy with SSLv3 disabled: ELBSecurityPolicy-2014-10
rcthompson 4 days ago 0 replies      
I'm starting to wonder how many other important vulnerabilities I'm missing because their discoverer didn't come up with a catchy name like Heartbleed, Shellshock, or POODLE.
Cybershambles 3 days ago 0 replies      
I'm starting to collect articles of merit related to the new attack.

I'll continue to grow the list the more I see/read.


omh 3 days ago 1 reply      
It seems that this is an attack on the CBC-mode ciphers but doesn't change anything about the RC4 ciphers.

RC4 is mentioned in passing as having weaknesses, but is it actually broken? If we can't disable SSL3 completely would using only RC4 ciphers be an option?

michaelbuckbee 3 days ago 1 reply      
I made a "non-technical" Poodle scan reporter at: https://www.expeditedssl.com/poodle if anybody needs to convince someone in their organization that a problem needs addressing and to take action.
justinweiss 3 days ago 0 replies      
FYI, if you're using Twilio: https://twitter.com/twilio/status/522446663130963969

"If you are encountering trouble with inbound Twilio requests while mitigating the SSLv3 vuln, contact help@twilio.com for direct help."

(That is, they have to manually enable TLS on your account.)

Also, if you're using GET requests with ExactTarget, you'll run into the same thing, but I haven't heard back from them if / when they'll have that fixed.

userbinator 4 days ago 0 replies      
Usually, the server will reject this record, and the attacker will simply try again with a new request. Occasionally (on average, once in 256 requests), the server will accept the modified record

This suggests to me that a possible workaround could be to detect this attack because it will generate the characteristic pattern of a successful record amongst many invalid ones, and then expire the relevant cookies; by the time the attacker has figured out a byte or two, the cookie has already become useless. It could potentially turn into a denial-of-service, but that's something anyone with MITM capability can do trivially anyway.

davidgerard 1 day ago 0 replies      
We are in the horrible position of supporting some straggling IE6 users. Thankfully disabling SSLv3 means they can no longer log in.
nutmeg 3 days ago 0 replies      
How to disable SSL 3.0 in IIS: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/187498
IgorPartola 4 days ago 2 replies      
Practically speaking, how broken is SSLv3.0 now? Are we hours, days, weeks, months, or years from someone actually getting out there and exploiting this?
jvehent 4 days ago 3 replies      
To business owners and large sites operators out there: before disabling SSLv3, make sure that none of your clients/customers/users are stuck on IE6. We still see significant IE6 traffic coming from China. Some legacy clients are also stuck on SSLv3.

As a general rule, review your logs before disabling things. And ask your users to use modern browsers as soon as possible.

laumars 3 days ago 0 replies      
Sorry if I've have missed this if it's been posted elsewhere, but is there a way of having Apache log which SSL protocol version is being used for SSL/TLS connections?

I've seen people post figures like 0.85% of HTTPS connections have been SSL 3.0 and was wondering how those figures were compiled.

aburan28 2 days ago 0 replies      
This vulnerability is being downplayed and details are being kept secret until they can patch this bug because of how severe this is
ctz 3 days ago 0 replies      

An old writeup of mine on TLS downgrade, if anyone's interested.

olov 3 days ago 0 replies      
Disable SSL3.0 in golang ListenAndServeTLS: https://gist.github.com/olov/eb60ab878eb73a7c5e22
rb2e 4 days ago 0 replies      
Reading https://www.openssl.org/~bodo/ssl-poodle.pdf may also be helpful if you want to fully understand this exploit.
mikelat 4 days ago 1 reply      
This has pretty large implications for countries (namely china) with still a sizable IE6 userbase. IE6 doesn't support TLS by default, making https effectively completely unsupported for that browser.
borski 3 days ago 0 replies      
You can check to see if you're vulnerable using our free tool: https://www.tinfoilsecurity.com/poodle
cmdr_keen 4 days ago 0 replies      
https://zmap.io/sslv3/ - "POODLE Attack and SSLv3 Support Measurement"
ck2 4 days ago 0 replies      
Firefox 34 will disable SSLv3 entirely:


Already using the beta, it is very stable.

You can also set security.tls.version.min to 1

In Chrome set the command line flag --ssl-version-min=tls1

justcommenting 4 days ago 1 reply      
this may help clarify why Firefox dragged its feet for so long to enable TLS 1.2 support by default...from the timeline, we could probably make some guesses as to when certain agencies took notice of this attack.

the real question is why it took major site ops this long to realize. given a trove of handshakes (which Google has been saving for years), user-agent headers, and expected ciphersuites, it perhaps should not have been too difficult to detect downgrade attacks in the wild. that doesn't in itself give you POODLE, but it probably offers some clues...especially given other information available to them.

Nexus Player
368 points by gulbrandr  3 days ago   240 comments top 39
moskie 3 days ago 13 replies      
I fear the release the this new Nexus Player portends we're not going to see an update to the Chromecast anytime soon, if ever. That makes me sad.

I guess I'm just not the average user, but the Chromecast handily beats what this (and other options in this genre, i.e., Apple TV / Fire TV / Roku) have to offer. I don't want another remote control. And making my phone the best remote control is an awesome solution. And the Chromecast doesn't take up any room in my living room / entertainment center. And it's only thrity-five-goddamn-dollars.

I guess the downside is that I can't play crappy games on my big screen. Darn.

josteink 2 days ago 3 replies      
What? A media-hub with NO wired ethernet? How am I supposed to take that seriously?

I don't care about what people saying about wifi having gotten "better". By every single measurable criteria, it is slower, is less reliable, has lower capacity and higher latency than wired gigabit ethernet and I doubt that will change anytime soon.

I demand wired ethernet on my devices, and I know a bunch of other who do too.

smackfu 3 days ago 4 replies      
$99 plus $40 for the controller. Since Google doesn't seem to want to provide that information.
dangrossman 3 days ago 2 replies      
I wish this was a real Google TV replacement.

My 4-year-old Google TV box (Logitech Revue) -- with Android 3.1 -- is really showing its age. The app store is pretty empty and it only supports things like Amazon Video and HBO Go because Android still had Flash back then.

The missing key is an HDMI input. My TV is always tuned to the Google TV input whether I'm watching live cable TV, a Netflix movie or casting a YouTube video. I have a single remote control (the Google TV one) for all of them. It changes channels and settings on my cable box with HDMI CEC.

All these new boxes make you switch inputs and remotes all the time. I have too many remotes already.

nogridbag 3 days ago 0 replies      
I realize the controller is sold separately, but I did find it a little odd that the controller says "ASUS" at the top instead of "NEXUS" since it seems to be the official controller.
tachyonbeam 3 days ago 4 replies      
I wonder why they went with an Intel Atom CPU instead of using ARM chips as they do in the Nexus phones. Seems like a strange choice.
dchuk 3 days ago 3 replies      
There is so little innovation going on in the apple tv-esque space. All of these devices look and act exactly the same (Fire, AppleTV, this thing, Roku, etc
dataminded 3 days ago 1 reply      
The lack of Ethernet is a deal breaker for me. Ethernet is the only thing my chromecast is missing. I don't want games or apps, just a stable internet connection.
apayan 3 days ago 1 reply      
I've had the pleasure of using one of these for the past month and it's been really great. I have a Chromecast that I used all the time before, but because I can cast to the Android TV (Player), I don't use the Chromecast anymore (I only have one TV).

The whole UI feels very snappy, and videos load very quickly.

The game pad feels great in my hands. No complaints there.

The selection of games on Google Play isn't huge (yet?). I currently see 16 games listed on it for download/purchase. My favorite so far is Leo's Fortune. I enjoyed it on my Nexus 5 when it came out, but after playing it on Android TV, I won't even play it on the phone anymore because I've experienced how much better the game is with a controller. I suspect that's going to be the case with a lot of games that come out for Android in the future. Touch interface only games have a lot of limitations.

Besides Netflix, you can also use Plex (PlexPass subscribers only right now) and that works pretty flawlessly as well.

I've been very happy with the whole setup and I'll be recommending it to all who are in the market for a set top box.

cfontes 3 days ago 2 replies      
Hum... interesting.

OUYA was almost dead. Now it's done.

thefreeman 3 days ago 3 replies      
This is a legitimate question, not a troll. Are there actually any mobile games out there that you would want to play on your tv with a controller?

Pretty much every mobile game I have ever tried has been a cesspool of micropayment dark patterns, or else something that really just serves to kill time when there is nothing else to do (riding the bus, waiting at an office, etc.)

wnevets 3 days ago 5 replies      
With the chromecast, I have no interest in another box that plays video content. Having a dedicate box to play casual android games on my tv isnt very appealing to me either.

Is there really a big market for this thing?

mahyarm 3 days ago 2 replies      
Now we need a $20 google audiocaster. It would kill the airplay speaker market for android devices. You can hack it with a $20 hdmi to 3.5mm audio adaptor, but then it becomes a $55 device.

I'm somewhat surprised there is no ethernet in this player. For some places, wifi just doesn't work in their environment.

omnibrain 3 days ago 1 reply      
Looks like "Nexus Q reborn". It looks very similar to the Amazon Fire TV.
jewel 3 days ago 1 reply      
I've been anxiously awaiting this. We're thinking of shipping an enterprise product on the Amazon Fire TV, but it's relative lack of control is quite limiting. Hopefully this is priced similarly.

I've tried nearly every android TV stick, and while they are pretty close to what we need, and infinitely customizable, we had trouble getting consistent hardware. It seemed like each batch would behave slightly differently.

taeric 3 days ago 1 reply      
This really looks just like a circular version of the FireTV. The remote looks very similar. To the point I'd assume they are the same design.

Is this just a case where Amazon got a reference implementation out the door before Google did?

gagege 3 days ago 4 replies      
Did anyone else not see Amazon in that list of apps?
UK-AL 3 days ago 0 replies      
I don't get this. I have a Chromecast + nexus 7 as a remote and its already my preferred way of watching Netflix etc. Much better than a clusmly remote.

I hope this doesn't mean there backtracking on Chromecast.

kin 3 days ago 1 reply      
Google Cast sounds a bit too good to be true, just like the Chromecast was. I hated the Chromecast 'cause it simply didn't have enough content for me and the performance was terrible.

I'll have to wait and see how the performance for the Google Cast is. I'd like it to at least be as good as my ability to airplay HD MKV files to an Apple TV.

Pxtl 3 days ago 0 replies      
Now that every company is releasing gamepads for their set-top devices hopefully we'll see android games support them properly.
wfjackson 3 days ago 3 replies      
>Get your apps on Google Play, or rent a movie if your app doesnt have what youre looking for

What? Are they exclusively targeting movie content with this? It doesn't make much sense to rent a movie if store apps don't have a feature I am looking for.

d23 3 days ago 0 replies      
Is it just me, or do the controllers (both of them) look just like the Fire TV's controllers?

I just don't get it. Does every company have to jump in head first to any emerging market just because the others are doing it?

izacus 3 days ago 1 reply      
Ah, this will replace my RPi with XBMC (for local playback) and Chromecast combo nicely - not having to use two devices will clear up some HDMI space on the receiver :)

The Android TV interface looks pretty sleek as well.

AdmiralAsshat 3 days ago 0 replies      
I think the question on everyone's mind is: how well will it run XBMC?
agumonkey 3 days ago 0 replies      
Surprisingly not mentioned on the fr_FR main page https://archive.today/zYpBZ

edit: ha... probably market limited.

xngzng 3 days ago 0 replies      
Feel quite certain we will see Apple announce 4th generation Apple TV tomorrow with a gaming capable A7 processor for Metal games, and voice capable remote control the same as Nexus Player.
ccozan 3 days ago 0 replies      
"Start here, finish there" is one of the good features. However is not really new, I can do the same with Amazon Prime ( w/ App from Smart Tv and App on Tablet ).
mmanfrin 3 days ago 0 replies      
So this is a Fire TV + Chromecast - Amazon Siloed Content.
devin 2 days ago 0 replies      
Sad that a bunch of designers can't come up with an original thought. Looks exactly like the Apple TV.
general_failure 3 days ago 2 replies      
This kills Roku.

Roku is dead, long live Roku.

Igglyboo 3 days ago 0 replies      
Wanted this ever since I saw the Amazon Fire TV, will no doubt be much more "hackable" than Amazons version of android.
baq 3 days ago 0 replies      
intel inside. interesting times.
thedangler 3 days ago 0 replies      
Maybe it is just me but I do not see it in the play store. (Canada)
acgourley 3 days ago 0 replies      
Does anyone know if it has miracast?
cbeach 3 days ago 2 replies      
"Your favourite apps are on Nexus Player"

Spotify and iPlayer are my favourites. Notably absent.

notastartup 3 days ago 0 replies      
Remember ouya?
swartkrans 3 days ago 1 reply      
Is that running Google TV?
cbsmith 3 days ago 0 replies      
A.K.A.: Nexus Q 2.0
higherpurpose 3 days ago 2 replies      
Shame it comes with a much weaker Atom processor instead of the new 64-bit Tegra processor, that's already in the Nexus 9 tablet. That decision doesn't make any sense to me, which shows once again that Google's Intel-related decisions are all political, and not technical.
Apple Built A SIM Card That Lets You Switch Between AT&T, Sprint, And T-Mobile
373 points by calvin_c  2 days ago   185 comments top 27
IkmoIkmo 2 days ago 7 replies      
Probably the most interesting thing from Apple today, in my opinion. The ability to buy short term plans from different providers effortlessly can turn my tablet into a much more versatile device, and increase competition and reduce long-term carrier lock-in.

It's pretty sweet and if it can set a standard for phones then we'll see carriers become true utilities between which customers can switch easily if they get poor service. In short, pretty awesome.

Today's carrier system kind of feels like this dinosaur, like a landline... archaic and unnecessary. With so many people travelling, changing places, changing technology etc, it makes a lot of sense to move from subscriptions to short-time payments, and eventually, pay-per second of use on the fly, directly, without an account or monthly statement, with a push payment instead of a pull payment. (digital currencies being a key element here). Anyway, getting a bit too off-topic here, but cool first move by Apple for sure!

apayan 2 days ago 1 reply      
Apple filed a patent on this Virtual SIM card in 2011. More info here:http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2011/11/apple-in...

The linked article suggests it's a method to save space in the hardware design so the SIM is not user serviceable. However, it also forces you to only buy data service from Apple approved carriers. Notice in the screen shot from the OP's article that Cricket or any of the more affordable MVNO's are not available as options.

This change is just as much about control over where you spend your carrier dollars (and, possibly, Apple getting a kickback) as it is about saving space.

maximumoverload 2 days ago 6 replies      
I admit, as an European, I see no point to this.

If you want a new SIM card, and you don't have a contract, just buy a new SIM card and put it in your phone / tablet.

If you have a long-term contract, this won't help you anyway.

Where is the catch? (Sorry if I am sounding stupid)

davb 2 days ago 1 reply      
I really don't like the sound of this. The SIM card is the one thing that keeps mobile service relatively divorced from the hardware. I can keep the same phone but change SIM whenever it suits. I can also take change hardware and just move the SIM.

I don't need to ask my provider or hardware OEM for permission. I have control. In the Apple scenario I'm giving this up. I vaguely remember some wrangling with GSMA over this.

Ultimately, as with many Apple products, we'll be trading control for convenience.

BuildTheRobots 1 day ago 2 replies      
I'm slightly amazed at the awed coverage this is getting.

As others have pointed out, multi-IMSI SIM cards are nothing new, though points to Apple for getting the network carriers on board and sharing keys.

Getting a replacement SIM card is not a problem (certainly not in the UK). Most of the networks will happily post you out one for free and you can buy them for virtually no money in all phone shops, most supermarkets, market stalls... everywhere -even in this tiny backwater technophobic village where I work.

My worry is that this is the start of a path down to devices having embedded SIM cards that are not user replaceable, or even have no SIM at all and just use the secure storage module built into the chipset. This seems like a bad hole to be heading down as it would directly take choice and power away from the end user.

silveira 2 days ago 1 reply      
In Brazil people have been using things like these for about a decade. http://www.dx.com/p/triple-sim-cards-adapter-for-iphone-4-4s...
hazmatter 1 day ago 0 replies      
Actually this feature is not Apple exlusive.

I created a little project that allows remote usage of multiple SIM cards as a Software-SIM on MTK based Android phones. Forward the commands via TCP from a modified Baseband-firmware.This means you could e.g. have multiple SIM cards for your business trip without changing the card in your phone. Also malicious people could steal your SIM authentication if you use a vulnerable Android phone and use it:



gcb0 2 days ago 2 replies      
that probably overrides/ignores the SIM card and use hardcoded GSM ids from the device. as if it has a sim slot plus 3 hardcoded sim, that you can select which one to use on software.

so i doubt you will be able to activate those hardcoded sims with any plan that easily. i doubt you will even be able to activate it without apple help.

but of course, im just guessing. have no idea if that is the case.

Evolved 1 day ago 0 replies      
I pay $176/month for 3 lines with AT&T and all 3 lines still have the unlimited data @$30/month on them. I can buy 3 subsidized iphone 6s for $600+tax total ($200 each) or I can buy them each at $650. The price per month works out to about $27/month per phone. Will AT&T knock $27 off per month per phone if I buy them outright? The answer is no. I've talked to supervisor after supervisor about it and there is no discount if I upgrade and buy the phone outright up front. So I ask, where's the incentive?

AT&T is by no means perfect but given all the traveling I've done and my experiences with Verizon and T-Mobile (never tried Sprint) I've found that AT&T and Verizon are interchangeable and T-Mobile is not quite on the same level.

I know my rate plan hasn't become more expensive when I upgrade so how can I expect that it will become cheaper if I bring my own device?

akandiah 2 days ago 0 replies      
The concept is called multi-IMSI. It's been possible to do this for a while now.
wy 2 days ago 0 replies      
This is really an interesting feature (let's say 'feature' at this moment). Actually, in person, I do really consider this is an tremendous improvement for any carrier-required mobile devices.

It makes mobile devices really "mobile". Customers do not have to physically enter a local carrier store to add a new line/data-plan or transfer to another carrier. It might save a great amount of time and efforts especially when traveling overseas.

Hope it came to iPhone in near future. Due to the easiness of switching carriers, hope it would help bringing down prices.

defen 2 days ago 2 replies      
So with this tech, how long until Apple starts offering MVNO services? And eventually completely destroys whatever profit margins the current operators have?
hayksaakian 2 days ago 2 replies      
Why would they NOT talk about this today?

It baffles me.

deadweight3 2 days ago 0 replies      
I've known about this for a while, though I don't remember my source. I seem to recall that it was first envisioned under Jobs, and AT&T started swinging punches when they caught a whiff. Although the source appears solid in hindsight, I chalked it up to a subterfuge project. Can anyone who has since left confirm this was the same initiative?
burn 2 days ago 1 reply      
Wow this is a serious game changer, I was thinking about this the other day. I would be great to be able to turn off and on a sim card in your smartphone. So if you were using an iPhone and wanted to use your Android phone you just turned the iPhone sim off and used your android phone without having to call and de-activate it everytime.
jlarocco 2 days ago 2 replies      
How does this work?

I have an iPhone 5 with Sprint, and I thought I was more or less locked in because they used CDMA. I thought I would need a new phone if I wanted to switch to anything else.

Would love to know I've been wrong and can switch without buying out my contract and buying a phone...

Animats 2 days ago 3 replies      
Why not have a phone with three SIM card slots? Avoid the kickback from the carrier to Apple.
jpkeisala 1 day ago 0 replies      
I remember some years back Nokia made software SIM but it disappeared from the radar probably due Telcos pressure. Glad we get something to that direction finally.
seanmcdirmid 2 days ago 0 replies      
When I was in Thailand, one carrier had the ability to co-opt my China unicom SIM and provide service there. I don't think my SIM was a soft one, I think they were actually co-opting the numbers!
ChuckMcM 2 days ago 0 replies      
Interesting they don't mention Verizon. They do mention that participating carriers are subject to change though, so presumably they can add (or delete) carriers from the device.
67726e 2 days ago 0 replies      
Easier to track for whom? If you think Apple doesn't already have a way of uniquely identifying a device, regardless of location and connection, you're out of it.
wlesieutre 2 days ago 1 reply      
Does it work with prepaid, or just contracts? If you could just temporarily swap over to T-Mobile's $30 prepaid unlimited data, that would be a big deal.
tapsboy 2 days ago 2 replies      
With Multipath TCP across multiple LTE networks, this could enable substantial improvement in network performance.

Edit: I meant it as a future possibility

kleptco 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is about trading carrier lockin for apple lockin, that's all.
rbcgerard 2 days ago 0 replies      
This will be great for people who have different mobile phone #'s in different countries if it evolves that far...
lurkinggrue 1 day ago 0 replies      
But makes it harder to switch devices... Nice one Apple.
airencracken 2 days ago 0 replies      
This is less about switching providers more easily and more about preventing users from modifying even the SIM card. Apple wants you to never open or modify the device in any way possible.
Android 5.0 Lollipop
354 points by koesie10  3 days ago   108 comments top 21
fakename 3 days ago 9 replies      
"Improved network selection logic so that your device connects only if there is a verified internet connection on Wi-Fi"

jfc, I can't believe this is just now being fixed. This has to be the most infuriatingly stupid thing about android.I don't have hopes of them adding the ability to intelligently switch from a weak wifi signal to a strong cell signal, but this is a step in the right direction.No more assuming I have no new emails/texts when I'm in an airport because my phone quietly joined a wifi network and is waiting for me to open a browser and log in.

spindritf 3 days ago 3 replies      
Motorola will also update their older phones to Lollipop. Including Moto X and G starting with the 1st gen.


obsurveyor 3 days ago 2 replies      
> As previewed at Google I/O, Lollipop is our largest, most ambitious release on Android with over 5,000 new APIs for developers.

As a developer not initiated to the Android platform, the second half of this sentence is a very scary thing to read.

eggoa 3 days ago 1 reply      
A guest user mode is a great idea. It would be nice to be able to lend someone my phone without effectively handing them the keys to my entire life.
UnoriginalGuy 3 days ago 3 replies      
I am really curious to see if there will be noticeable "real world" battery life improvements. On paper they have done things which SHOULD give us improvements (ART, and "Project Volta" scheduling), however it remains to be seen just how well those theoreticals will translate into improvements on the ground.

I have read reports from people who have tried the developer preview, however their anecdotes vary so wildly (e.g. 10-60% improvements) it is hard to believe any of them. Need something more scientific than people's vague "I got more hours today than yesterday."

chris-at 3 days ago 0 replies      
Privacy isn't even mentioned in its features :(


solrwnd 3 days ago 3 replies      
Looks like no fine-grained control of app permissions, either dynamic/on-demand or manual. This approach (all or nothing) is one major issue that cripples Android usability for me. :(
4lejandrito 3 days ago 0 replies      
If you read the whole article you'll find that the nexus 4 will be supported
jastanton 3 days ago 3 replies      
6 hours of battery life for 15 minutes of charging? Wow.
avree 3 days ago 0 replies      
Awesome. I'm curious as to when the AOSP public repos will be updated to contain the release version of L.
dotBen 3 days ago 2 replies      
Wondering if Google will clarify the upgrade path for those of us with Android L side loaded onto our phones.

My guess is it will require a re-flash back to KitKat so that Lollipop can be auto-upgrade over the air. In which case I might as well get that going now...

mpthrapp 3 days ago 3 replies      
Anyone know if there's a way to find out if my phone (HTC One M8) will be able to upgrade to 5?
mtck 3 days ago 0 replies      
"The songs, photos, apps, and even recent searches from one of your Android devices can be immediately enjoyed across all of your Android devices."

Catching up to Apple but I'd love to see this across laptops as an app or through Chrome.

higherpurpose 3 days ago 0 replies      
Siecje 3 days ago 0 replies      
I would like to be able to view battery as a percent.
hayksaakian 3 days ago 0 replies      
No SDK until the 17 though.
k-mcgrady 3 days ago 10 replies      
So the Nexus 4, which is just under 2 years old, won't support Lollipop? Considering the device is from Google and not through a carrier I would expect better. No pricing on the Nexus 6 but I would expect it will cost a lot more than Nexus devices have in the past. And at only 1 inch less than their Nexus 7 tablet it seems ridiculously large. At what point is it a tablet that makes calls and not a phone?

Nexus Player is very interesting though - but again it all depends on the price which they haven't mentioned.


As people below have pointed out they changed the page to include the Nexus 4 after my post.

ryandvm 3 days ago 0 replies      
a.k.a. iOS 9
jarin 3 days ago 0 replies      
Darn, I was hoping for Lemon Cakes.
twobits 3 days ago 0 replies      
Your chains are more golden now.
valinor4 3 days ago 1 reply      
"Android 5.0 Lollipop, which comes on Nexus 6, Nexus 9 and Nexus Player, will also be available on Nexus 4, 5, 7, 10 and Google Play edition devices in the coming weeks."

I don't understand why people keep saying that it won't come on Nexus 4.

One Less Password
380 points by cpeterso  6 days ago   156 comments top 51
abalone 6 days ago 5 replies      
Not a bad idea but the chief drawbacks I see:

1. Needs a very long-lived session to be convenient. Elsewhere they note their's is a whole year.[1] That's a long time to go without reauthenticating a client!

2. Authentication is or should be a much more common event than recovering a lost password, and now that's totally dependent on your email provider. One concern is latency.. a minute can feel like an hour while waiting to log in to your account to do something urgent. But also worrisome is provider downtime, spam filters, etc. all can block you from accessing your accounts.

Of course the way they "deal" with #2 is by just trying to avoid authenticating you very often (#1), which is not a generally-applicably awesome security practice. Might be ok in some cases but I wouldn't classify that as an overall "better" way to sign in.

I think a better way to solve this is at the browser/OS level with built-in password generation and management. And that's actually a third drawback to this approach.. it's incompatible with password managers.

[1] https://chrisdecairos.ca/one-time-passwords-pt-2/

janfoeh 6 days ago 1 reply      
I like the idea. The downside is of course having to switch between the site and your email.

One could bridge that gap by adding two headers to the authentication emails - one containing the URL where the sign in request originated, and one with the sign in URL that must be visited.

A browser extension could then check your emails, and if an incoming mail matches the sign-in page of the current tab, log you in directly.

thedufer 6 days ago 1 reply      
I implemented this style of login in the app I'm currently building. I don't think its necessarily appropriate everywhere; the reason I decided to use it is that its the type of service you very rarely log into. For things like that, a large portion of logins are (anecdotally) going to end up going through the forgot password flow anyway.

I will admit that not being responsible for storing passwords was one of the reasons I used it. I'm by no means a security expert; one less thing I can screw up seems like a major plus.

atmosx 6 days ago 2 replies      
A modern password manager (e.g. 1Password) seems like a way more natural solution that this. Not to mention that many services do not use smtpd+ssl/tls.
ChuckMcM 6 days ago 0 replies      
I really like this, I was thinking the other day when I used a site that I rarely use, and went through the whole 'forgot resend reenter' password thing that just that could be the 'standard' way of dealing with low impact sites and wouldn't force a password to be generated. It does imply the mail path is workable but that seems pretty common these days.
BinaryIdiot 6 days ago 4 replies      
It's clever but I wouldn't use it. First the user experience of going from one channel (web) to another (email) isn't very natural but the second and biggest reason is that it turns an email account into a central authority to access my other accounts from.

Some say email is already like that but it isn't with services using two factor authentication.

I don't think there is an easy and intuitive way to get rid of passwords without involving some sort of physical component that stays on yourself.

downandout 6 days ago 2 replies      
This is still nothing more than a password...it's essentially just a password that is emailed to you. I've never understood why we can't instead authenticate ourselves to our browser or device, and get people out of the habit of authenticating to individual websites. This would eliminate phishing and greatly enhance security. Touch ID is a big step in this direction, but still can't be used for websites.

When authenticating, the browser could just send the user's public key, and if a user with that key is in the system, it replies with a session key encrypted with the user's public key. If browser companies would get their act together, we wouldn't have as many authentication issues as we do today.

pmichaud 6 days ago 2 replies      
I remember this idea from a while back, and I still think it's not going to work. It's too cumbersome to have to access your email every time you want to log into something. I love the creativity of the solution, but I just don't think it's workable on a large scale.
sarahj 6 days ago 1 reply      
This essentially mimics my login flow to every site I only use occasionally (e.g. twitter) and therefore can never remember the password for:

1. Go to login

2. Forget password - click reset password

3. Go to email, find reset password email

4. Login.

I wouldn't really mind if this became more common. I don't trust password managers (and access the internet from so many different devices that the only common thing they share between them is that I can access my webmail client or email on my phone.)

mderazon 6 days ago 0 replies      
I like this idea for mobile apps a lot.

In mobile the sign up flow can even be more streamlined using deep linking:

1. User enters email address.

2. Opens email client and click the link.

3. Link contain app specific schema myapp://login?token=cold_fish etc.

4. App opens and verifies the token with the server.

5. User is logged in.

User has to enter only email address as opposed to email + password (and sometime password confirmation)Then only needs to click a link in email client to sign up.

jordanpg 6 days ago 2 replies      
The cynic in me observes that although this post is couched in the language of an improved UX, what it also does is absolves Mozilla from keeping any (hashed) passwords stored in their databases. Only tokens with a very short shelf-life.

(Hashed) Password storage is moved to a third-party database (the email provider). Presumably the client "remember me" links are meaningless by themselves.

netheril96 5 days ago 1 reply      
Isn't email transferred in plain text? This is not very secure in my mind. Granted, nowadays a lot of service lets you reset your password through email, but that is only a one time thing. Now the whole system is dependent on someone not introspecting the packets flowing in the Internet.
scottmotte 6 days ago 0 replies      
I too would "like to see [this approach] used and pushed further by other designers and developers."

I'm one of those who have been trying to do so. I created an open source approach called Handshake.js that is re-usable for developers. [1]

I presented this topic to a good crowd at JS.LA [2].

At the current time, I'm finding developers still hesitant to jump into the approach. Passwords are familiar and there are many developer tools/libraries to quickly setup the defacto username/password approach to authentication.

[1] https://sendgrid.com/blog/lets-deprecate-password-email-auth...[2] https://vimeo.com/90883185

rakoo 6 days ago 0 replies      
Ah ! I built this a few months back:


It uses the same idea as in the post, ie the "lost password flow for login", but with XMPP. The latter gives you much higher flexibility in that it actually is thought out as a programmable protocol. You try to login, the server sends a token to any of your connected clients via a bot message, you just repeat it to the bot and you're then granted access.

I feel there is high potential here, and there even is an official XEP (http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0070.html) for this.

RexRollman 6 days ago 1 reply      
Playing with NetBSD the other day, and bored, I created an SSH key for the first time and was amazed that I had not been using this for forever. I think keys could replace passwords, or at least, cookie based logins.
MicroBerto 6 days ago 0 replies      
What's funny is that we're basically doing a very similar thing at my startup, PricePlow (https://www.priceplow.com), and it was actually inspired by discussion earlier here at Hacker News.

It works very well for our purposes. We don't need crazy security because we store no important personal information -- just product preferences. It's insanely easy on the users.

I guess I should get back to blogging about my entrepreneurial lessons learned, as this has been one of many of them....

thesumofall 6 days ago 0 replies      
There is a fully fledged implementation for Node.js https://passwordless.net Disclaimer: I'm leading the development
harigov 6 days ago 1 reply      
So instead of directly logging in using the ID provider like FB/Google/Microsoft, which are also the email providers, you send an email to those accounts and ask user to take one extra step of checking and clicking the link. It seems to be inefficient. A much better solution should be for the devices to support accounts natively and integrate authentication directly into the platform.
codinghorror 6 days ago 1 reply      
How is this any materially different than the "I always forget my password and I always use the forgot password link"? I guess you don't have to pick a new password each time? But you could just rapidly type in gibberish and achieve nearly the same effect, no real password, login via email.
jplarson 6 days ago 1 reply      
The biggest reason for me to pass on implementing an approach like this is what I THINK is the actual most common use case for a typical user when logging into a site at which they are a regular:

They're doing so for the nth time, and on the (or a) device they usually use, and thus their browser (or other password manager) has already got their password remembered and thus it is pre-filled in.

Having to click back and forth between email every time you log in seems way clunky relative to that, which for me is something above 90% of the instances I log in to some web application.

Couple that smoothness with picking a non-reused, strong password for a web application (which password managers make actually practical) and the friction in the user login experience seems to have little if any upside.

LukeB_UK 6 days ago 2 replies      
Every time I've heard of this system, I've thought that it would make it clumsier to access an account.

I go to a site and my intention is to stay on that site throughout whatever I'm doing there. If you force me off your site for something like logging in (where it's the point of 'I trust your site, give me access') then I've lost focus and you've put your experience in someone else's hands.

If I was doing this, I'd have to open a new tab, go to GMail, wait for it to load, find the tab within GMail that has the email and then click the link. Every so often, I'd probably have to put my Google password in too. That's a lot of effort, considering that your site probably isn't that significant to me.

pulkitpulkit 5 days ago 1 reply      
I really like the way TranferWise (transferwise.com) automatically signs me in when I load the page. It's a way to transfer money online so has to be secure, but uses my email authentication to verify it's me. I don't even have to click a sign-in button! I'm surprised this hasn't caught on more...


FlailFast 6 days ago 1 reply      
I like this idea a lot, but given the centralization of authority to a user's email account, I do think it requires beefed up security for however the user accesses their email---i.e., would be great to allow this only for users who have 2FA enabled on their webmail, although I have no idea how you'd check or enforce that.

Actually, the "lost password" flow already assumes email as a single point of failure, so I suppose my 2FA comment is moot (in other words, we should be pushing for 2FA for accounts regardless of their password approach on other accounts).

joesmo 6 days ago 0 replies      
The main flaw with this idea as well as pretty much every password reset flow is that email itself is insecure. If I want to attack the login system and I have the ability to intercept the emails at some point, I essentially get access to the link/code in plaintext and now have access to the account. The difference might be that there will be a much higher volume of emails from a system like this than from one that just uses email for resetting passwords, though that's not guaranteed. I'd like to see a system that address this issue.
imrehg 5 days ago 1 reply      
Startup Digest event submissions use similar method: no account, every login is an email sent to you. The problem I have is that I do use a password manager and like that much a lot more than switching back and forth of email and the site. If I go to your site, I don't want to go to my email...

It really feels like they want to solve my password storage problem for me, in a very opinionated manner without any alternative for me, and while it might be a good solution, it does not feel like one (for me).

lazyjones 6 days ago 0 replies      
Does this handle concurrent logins from multiple devices reasonably? If every login essentially resets the "password", either all other existing sessions are terminated (bad usability) or kept (possibly insecure).

The linked more technical description suggests that the latter is done (sessions on trusted devices are valid for 1 year), so you apparently cannot stop someone with a stolen device from accessing your account (while the session is active / the cookie persists).

cpeterso 6 days ago 0 replies      
Here is the Mozilla Webmaker blog post with a more user-centric discussion of the password-less system: https://blog.webmaker.org/one-less-password

I was initially concerned that email is insecure, but then I remember sites already use email for password reset. :) My bank does something similar by also remembering my personal computers by browser fingerprinting and/or IP address.

jsudhams 5 days ago 0 replies      
If the service is not going to contain any privacy related stuff or need not be so secure why not just keep the cookie after typing in email address.

What i do is i keep all worthy sites'password on the password manager and the rest of the site follow a pattern based password or a common simple password. For e.g. i typically use some this "keepass"or domain of visited web + keepass

marco1 6 days ago 0 replies      
We shouldn't abuse email for this. Any one of LastPass, 1Password, KeyPass etc. or SSO with Google, Facebook or Twitter can do this way better. You will probably be using extremly long and random strings, i.e. you're storing secure tokens there. You can't call those passwords any longer -- and we should forget about the notion of manually creating and then remembering passwords to sign-in.
TomGullen 6 days ago 0 replies      
Submit phone number, and it SMS's you your password.

If I steal someone's phone, I get access to any system using this.

If I buy a sim card off someone, or buy used sim cards, I could also gain access to some potentially high value targets if they use this.

If I 'borrow' my phone of someone, I can steal things from them if the sites using this have value.

etc etc.

esolyt 6 days ago 0 replies      
This makes a lot of sense. On every device you would use to login to some kind of service, you already have access to your primary email. Clicking a link is easier than typing your password. It also seems to be safer. Your account is safe as long as your primary email is not compromised, in which case the attacker would gain access to your account by Forgot Password anyway.
kylequest 6 days ago 0 replies      
Good option for B2C services that are not that important (pretty much most of them actually :-)).

Email delivery problems is a factor that needs to be considered though.

Stolen "remember me" cookies is another factor... The password stealing malware will start harvesting those cookies instead of passwords (it's already happening in some cases).

aidos 6 days ago 0 replies      
I've wondered for a while why this pattern isn't more common.

In the past I had thought it would be great if instead of email it could push to your phone so a message would pop up saying "confirm login? Yes/no". It would be a really simple option from a ux perspective but screw going anywhere near making the crypto tech to support it.

droopybuns 6 days ago 2 replies      
https://fidoalliance.org/ is a much better idea and worth investing in instead.

Passwords must die. We need to get to the point where there is a modular mechanism for authentication so that individual devs never are tempted to create a users table and add a note field for password storage.

frewsxcv 6 days ago 3 replies      
Less -> Fewer
mcmillion 6 days ago 0 replies      
I'd much rather just use a password.
flowerpot 6 days ago 0 replies      
Interesting, I would like to see how non-tech users evaluate the user experience of this.
nicarus1984 6 days ago 0 replies      
What if I want to have this authentication process on my email account itself? :)The only other option (soon to be available) is SMS. Seems a bit too limiting and maybe not completely practical.
alexsmolen 6 days ago 0 replies      
I built an open-source Rails engine for something like this: https://nopassword.alexsmolen.com.
bibonix 6 days ago 0 replies      
Sounds like a good idea, but how many sites/companies will adopt it? There are tons of similar ideas, but none of them are as popular as login/password...
nathancahill 6 days ago 0 replies      
Flask-Security supports this experimentally. I love it. It's much less of a hassle than you might imagine, having to click a link in an email.
cpeterso 6 days ago 2 replies      
How does the user log in if they've changed their email address (e.g. switched ISPs and not using a gmail address)? Authenticate using SMS?
skion 5 days ago 0 replies      
"Passwords might be useful for someone who works on a public computer at the library."

Key loggers anyone?

cameronehrlich 6 days ago 0 replies      
I think this could be a very elegant solution.
jchysk 6 days ago 1 reply      
LaunchKey. No Passwords. https://launchkey.com
davidkhess 6 days ago 1 reply      
I don't think storing authentication tokens in people's email is good UX and raises expiration issues.

Here's another take on how to get rid of passwords: The Password Manifesto


ilitirit 5 days ago 0 replies      
This is (partially) only as secure as your email provider's authentication system.
amino 6 days ago 0 replies      
Oculus have been doing something similar with their order tracking for quite a while now.
imaginenore 6 days ago 0 replies      
I actually prefer Reddit's version - email is optional, while password isn't.
mbrain 6 days ago 1 reply      
What to do with projects those have both web and mobile apps?
peterwwillis 5 days ago 0 replies      
(edited down for size)

Problem with this system: it requires input on a single device (the computer), removes an out-of-band authentication option (password), and pushes the requirement for authentication down the stack to a system without a secure connection (e-mail, SMS).

In this new system, the password becomes an optional secondary authenticator. Your primary authenticator is now moved to some pre-authenticated service, such as your e-mail (which you have already logged into, presumably with a password) or SMS messaging (which you have already logged into, presumably with a swipe or pin on your phone). On top of that, neither of these uses a secured connection, so MITM/interception are trivial, to say nothing of phishing+CSRF.

One of the major flaws with existing out-of-band authentication access is that we assume the user only has one form of input: the computer. If the computer gets hacked [via malware] the user cannot protect themselves. But the future is here, and we carry [networked] computers in our pockets! Turns out the most secure way we can authenticate is via two separate networks and two separate computers using two secured connections. Example:

  Step 1. User requests to login to HTTPS Site A.  Step 2a. Site A prompts User for a password.  Step 2b. Site A sends an SMS to User with an HTTPS link to click.  Step 3a. User enters password on site.  Step 3b. User clicks link on SMS in mobile device.  Step 4a. Site authenticates password.  Step 4b. Mobile site reads cookie on User's mobile browser.  Step 5. User is authenticated; both mobile device and computer have access to site.
Here you have two different authentication factors on two independent devices which are combined to authenticate the user. The attackers now have to steal a cookie or auth token from two separate devices at once. This is of course completely plausible, but is a much more expensive attack than any currently implemented. Best of all, the user doesn't have to remember the password if they use their browser's password manager or a cookie is stored locally.

It would be trivial to add this dual-auth method to their existing system, so hopefully they implement that instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

For what it's worth, of course, here's an attack that could compromise that system. Attacker shows user a phishing password prompt page that uses a browser hack to steal a cookie. Attacker sends an SMS to the user (assuming they found the user's phone number) with a link to another site which also exploits the mobile browser to steal that cookie. Now the attacker has the two cookies and can log in, assuming the site does not use an Authentication Manager that detects attackers who steal credentials (only large-dollar sites use these).

Always bet on text
351 points by walrus  5 days ago   196 comments top 45
ajuc 4 days ago 7 replies      
People can read much faster than they can speak, and they can google a new words.

You can Ctrl+F arbitraly big text files for keywords. Good luck with doing the same with 2-hours-long video file or mp3. You will need to listen to the whole thing. That's what annoys me about the new trend to do tutorials as video.

You can easily diff text.

Text works with version control systems.

Text works with unix command line tools.

You can trivialy paste relevant fragments on wiki pages, in emails or IM discussions.

Google translate works with text.

Screen readers work with text.

GuiA 4 days ago 3 replies      
I agree that text is undervalued in our current media happy era; I say this as someone who uses terminal applications as much as possible (email, twitter, accounting, programming, etc. - I secretly pray for a return of the text only internet)

On the other hand, there are things that pictures can convey in ways that plain text couldn't approximate.

To link to a famous example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Minard.png

Just looking at this, in half a minute or so, you get a pretty good idea of the quantities involved, how they evolved over time, how they are linked together, etc. Conveying the same information with pure text would be much more lengthy.

I'm not going to make an entire case for this right here - just read Edward Tufte's books if you aren't too familiar with those ideas.

AnonJ 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Text existed before the proliferation of other media probably because it was primitive and inferior. Chimpanzees lived for eternity before human beings appeared. I don't see anything great in that. We didn't use a lot of multimedia in the beginning, primarily because of tech limits. Now that the conditions are ripe, why not? If everybody is using more and more of it, it's for a reason. Apple and MS brought about a revolution, exactly because they unlocked the killer feature that was the GUI. Ask if many of us would like to go back to the 80s regarding computer UI, that would be a nightmare. I certainly feel a 2-min video overview of product features is tons better than an one-hour read. Images and in general sensory feelings are always much more natural to human beings, which in essence are still a kind of animal. Texts were invented to maintain civilizations and enforce social hierarchies, but it was never ever natural nor great in this matter.

The Twitter icon takes a lot of space in a digital form, yet it only takes one minute to draw by hand, while the author probably wrote for an hour.

In all it's just a pointless, childish and tunnel-sighted rant. "Bet" on text? Bet what? I'm quite amused by the number of upvotes here. Though gladly I see many sane counterarguments high up there also, which is quite reassuring :)

ap22213 4 days ago 2 replies      
I was just telling my wife the other day about how much I'd hoped that text went away in favor of better communication mediums.

I feel shy to admit it, especially here, but I dislike text. I dislike it because it's unnatural. I view it as a hack that was adopted to help communicate ideas through time and space. It's a cool hack, but still unnatural. It requires huge amounts of training to participate, and it has other issues.

I dislike it at a more fundamental level because it tends to leave ideas 'set in stone'. Text, like architecture, seems to have an unnatural tendency to remain unmodified through time and space. It creates dogma and worship and takes up the space where new structures could have potentially formed. It creates things like the bible and the constitution - things that morph from their original intent into an unbreakable form of reverence. Since it disconnects the 'bodies' of the reader and the author, the reader has a tendency to mistake the text as something different from the author and his ideas.

Text has a place - to store the facts of the world at a given time and place, certainly. To store ideas that can be accurately represented with discrete symbology. To transmit the ephemeral. But, I truly hope that we abandon text as a 'serious' medium for ideas in favor of video, audio, simulation, and virtual reality.

Many of us have a bias toward text because that has been how we have lived our lives, through its symbols. Text has altered our brains. But, imagine that you could relive your life without it, with other forms of communication, would you still want it?

Detrus 4 days ago 2 replies      
Doug Engelbart of Mother of All Demos fame talked a lot about artifacts. Books are an artifact of paper and text. WISIWYG is an artifact of print media.

The technology of the medium determines the best way to convey information through it. And on top of that, whatever people are used to may influence what they do in a newer medium. For example we write to imitate speech. We use books on screens and try to recreate the world of print with WISIWYG design tools.

Text may be an evolutionary winner so far, but it is by no means some ideal artifact for communicating when computers are widespread.

Chris_Newton 4 days ago 2 replies      
There are plenty of advantages to text formats, to be sure. Others have mentioned many already, so I wont repeat them. But lets also consider both the disadvantages and how many of the advantages are accidental rather than inherent benefits of using a textual format.

One disadvantage of text is its lack of expressive power. Try reading the equation shown in the article aloud. Now try giving a one hour lecture on advanced quantum mechanics without the aid of mathematical notation. We can often represent information far more concisely and accurately with a good notation than with text alone, particularly when there is some inherent underlying structure that goes beyond what we can conveniently represent with some linear sequence of a tiny set of symbols. Computers are good at that kind of thing, but we dont read Shakespeare in binary, and we certainly dont draw the Twitter icon from the article using nothing but 1s and 0s.

Another disadvantage of text is how much it relies on everyone to use the same conventions, even though in the real world they dont. Go just about anywhere in the world and you can recognise what the little pictures of a man and a women on the two doors in the restaurant mean. Replace them with M and F and youll see people who dont speak English waiting outside to see who comes out of which door. We use different languages. We use different alphabets. In technology, we use different encodings for glyphs and invent all kinds of other concepts in an attempt to standardise how we represent written text, and we still create numerous bugs and portability issues and lost-in-translation problems. Weve been using computers for half a century and change, and we still havent standardised what the end of a line looks like. Or was it the end of a paragraph?

Now, certainly the simplicity of a text format has big advantages today in terms of things like searching for data and programmatic manipulation. But how much of that is just convention and historical accident? Right now, Im typing this using an input device heavily optimised for text, because thats what my computer comes with. If I want to input some graphical notation, say an equation, my choices are probably limited to using some awkward purely textual representation (TeX notation, etc.) or some even more awkward half-text, half-mouse graphical user interface. Neither is an appealing choice, which is why it takes those of us working in mathematical disciplines forever to type up a simple note or paper today.

Technology does exist that can interpret a much wider range of symbols drawn with a stylus or other pointing device as an alternative means of input, but usually as a niche tool or a demonstration of a concept. Until we routinely build user interfaces that parse freeform input and readily turn it into whatever graphical notation was intended, a lot of us are still going to reach for a pencil and paper whenever we want to draw some quick diagram to explain an idea. But I bet a lot of us still do draw that diagram instead of speaking for another five minutes to try to explain it.

Personally, Im looking forward to the day when source control doesnt show me a bunch of crude text-based edits to my code, but instead a concise, accurate representation of what I actually changed from a semantic point of view. But to do that sort of thing, we have to have more semantic information available in the first place, instead of relying on simplistic and sometimes error-prone textual approximations.

Daishiman 4 days ago 0 replies      
Yes, and this carries over very well when talking about code and programs.

Whenever I hear about the stories of the potential of graphical programming languages, "live" code environments living in their own VM, and graph-based logic stuff, the first thing that comes to mind is how come those systems have such a short shelf-life even when some of the concepts behind them are so brilliant.

Between the increased storage space, the interoperability issues, and the exponential difficulty in dealing with non-text media in a variety of operations, there's so much more additional friction to these systems that in the end they're not worth it. Unless, of course, they can be trivially converted to plaintext and parsed as such, then they have a fighting chance.

ukoms 4 days ago 4 replies      
Every letter, number or any sign is a "picture". In fact every written text is in fact structured array of simplified pictures, which happens to be understandable under conditions of given language rules. What should be bet is information. It doesn't really matter what communication tool will be used - information is the creme de la creme. Think about this - I can write simple text: "Mother should love their childrens". Would you still bet on text, if i wrote this in different language? "Kada matka powinna kocha swoje dzieci" or "Kila mama lazima kuwapenda watoto wao" isn't as understandable by most of people, despite the fact letter I used are almost identical. And how about other characters? " " or "" (thanks google translate ;))? In the end what matter is not text itself, but message behind it.
kerkeslager 4 days ago 2 replies      
> Text is the most efficient communication technology. By orders of magnitude. This blog post is likely to take perhaps 5000 bytes of storage, and could compress down to maybe 2000; by comparison the following 20-pixel-square image of the silhouette of a tweeting bird takes 4000 bytes: <Twitter Logo Here>.

My reaction when reading this was, "Yeah, but that's because you encoded it in PNG. That's a 'good-enough' encoding, but you can definitely make it more efficient by making it an SVG, since that image is of the kind that's ideal for vector graphics." And then I remembered SVG is a text-based image format.

Touch, frog hop. Touch.

Adding to the point: karma system on sites such as Reddit has incentivized converting text into images, because text posts don't get karma. For example, r/quotesporn[1] (safe for work) has many more users and quotes than r/quotes[2] which allows only text.

As a collector of quotes, this annoys me to no end, because I can't copy/paste the quotes into my personal quotes collection.

[1] http://reddit.com/r/quotesporn safe for work)

[2] http://reddit.com/r/quotes

bluerobotcat 4 days ago 3 replies      
'Always bet on text' is a catchy slogan, but the author fails to define 'text'. This is confusing because the post contains a lot of pictures of things that I don't know we would all agree are text.

Let's start with a radical position. Is something text iff it can be directly encoded in UTF-8? What, then, about symbols that have not yet made there way into Unicode? Like an i dotted with a heart. Does it become text when the Unicode Consortium says so?

Nowadays memes tend to be distributed as (animated) bitmaps. But if we wanted to, we could encode them more efficiently. So are they text?

If 'text' = Unicode then that would also mean that many mathematical expressions (matrices, fractions) are not text. Math texts before symbols were not very readable: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/brainiac/2014/06/bef...

ASCII-encoded math is not without problems either.

Does 'text' include semantic markup like 'emphasis', 'heading', or 'list-item'? Does it include visual markup like 'italic', 'underline', 'blue', or 'Times New Roman'?

Does 'text' include newline and tab characters? Is it correct to say that newlines and tab characters exist on paper? If they don't then why do we use them to indent blocks of code?

If a sheet of paper with scribblings can be text, then can a bitmap be text too?

Now that I've brought up mathematics, HTML, and code, should we think of text as a linear medium or is it better to think of texts as trees?

What about handritten class notes that include arrows that link together different text fragments? Are these arrows part of the text? Does that mean that texts are directed graphs?

I'm even wondering if the author might actually have meant 'always bet on language', although that seems kind of obvious.

Or perhaps he meant 'don't needlessly throw away information', which is what would be happening if your CMS served pages as HTML image maps.

That is to say, even if we're all inclined to say that text is awesome, which we probably are, we might still be saying quite different things.

Ygg2 4 days ago 2 replies      
I did some research on textual vs graphical representation for my master. According to that research (not on my comp so I can't reference it) - one of main advantages of text is a near universal set of symbols (like Ascii for images), more constrained relationships (images are 2D while text is essentially 1D).
pdkl95 4 days ago 0 replies      
Early in science education is the very important lesson that you always write units for your answers, as they are more important than any numerical value you happened to get. The best teacher I ever had liked to use an example of a simple cake recipe: "2, 8, 9, 2.5" tells you nothing, while "flour, butter, eggs, sugar" is something you could experiment with to find the specific values. The text units (labels) convey far more information.

I propose that this is one of the key reasons why text files are vastly superior to binary formats. While they end up very similar in normal use, the readability enables investigation and experimentation, while writing a raw struct out to a file keeps the meaning in the (possibly lost or unobtainable) original program files.

// if speed is needed, you can always cache the parsed version of the text file

wuliwong 4 days ago 0 replies      
I don't understand the purpose of this post.

"Text wins by a mile." Wins what?

"Text is everything." I don't get his point.

The opening of this post has the feel more of a fan blog about their favorite baseball team than something intellectually serious.

In the second paragraph the author says "text is the most powerful, useful, effective communication technology ever, period." I suppose this is the purpose of this post? I guess if he is saying if he could only have one form of communication, he would choose text (removing speech from the list). I guess, but is this actually a debate? Are there really different "camps" that prefer images over text or video, etc?

I could delve into the arguments presented in the article but I think first I need to understand the thesis.

EDIT: To the down-voter, do you have anything to ask or say? Or are you just down-voting because you disagree? Everyone is interpreting this article to mean "there is too heavy a bias towards multimedia on the web today" but this is not the thesis of this article as I see it. The author is making arguments that text is better than multimedia in an absolute/complete sense. This is an entirely different argument.

analog31 5 days ago 1 reply      
A couple more points about text:

1) In addition to being searchable, text lends itself to other forms of automated processing such as translation and text-to-speech for the vision impaired.

2) I'm prone to debilitating eyestrain headaches when I try to do any kind of graphical work on a computer, yet I can write text without looking at the screen.

malandrew 4 days ago 0 replies      
Text also has a history and toolset that is hundreds (printing presses with moveable type) to thousands of years old (writing systems usable with some sort of scribe tool to mark clay tablets or draw on papyrus scrolls). The ability to quickly communicate in images is remarkably new relative to all that. In the renaissance you had three proper types of intaglio processes (drypoint, engraving, etching), but novel ideas required someone to create new printing blocks from scratch in a laborious process, especially relative to moveable type. Only since the advent of GUI computing systems have we had tools that make it easy to effectively communicate with images (CAD, vector and bitmap drawing apps, image manipulation apps, video editing). These tools are still very much in the realm of professionals, but tablets have done a lot to democratize the ability for laymen to use them to communicate. Furthermore, memes now form a basic form of communication, which you can see through reddit and hipchat integration.

In 100 years, what the average person will be able to communicate quickly with images is likely to be unimaginable to us today.

Anyways, I'm not saying text isn't superior in many ways, just that its way to early to judge images given technical limitations.

I think writing systems like the Chinese writing system is instructive in this respect. It had roots from thousands of years ago, like western writing systems, and both were about as effective until the end of the 19th century with the linotype machine and the mid to late 20th century with 7, 9, 14 and 16 segment liquid crystal displays. Western writing systems enjoyed a big advantage from a technical perspective until only recently because they were simple enough in form to be conveyed by simpler technologies than the Chinese writing system.

If such a gulf can exist, even if only for a few decades, between two "text" systems, then it's not a stretch to see image-based systems as comparable, but requiring better technology to become a powerful as text in the sense that Graydon is talking about here.

gear54rus 4 days ago 2 replies      
I tend to agree. Yet human thoughts are presented in the form of pictures (dreams? you don't really see text in front of you when dreaming).

It's one thing that a computer cannot make sense of 4000 bytes of a tweeting bird, but human brain instantly recognizes the rendered sign.

Also, videos and music are very hard to describe in text: it just does not have this unique feel video or music piece does.

antonyme 4 days ago 2 replies      
Not only is text durable, but plain text data is universal.

Take a document written in the word processor du jour 20 years ago. It is highly unlikely you could mount the physical media, let alone import the data with high fidelity. But plain text can be read by just about any tool, whereas binary/proprietary formats are limited by the longevity of the hardware/software that created them.

gokhan 4 days ago 2 replies      
If Chinese can be read faster (I don't know), than it's the picture that matters. Here, try to represent this picture in text:


It's 28K, a full text definition might be smaller but will be hardly accurate. My brain can process this single picture faster than a possible text representation of it.

Text is more practical 99% of the time but it's actually small pictures, known as letters, used together to symbolize concepts. I don't think my brain interprets letters individually, but my eyes mostly catch word by word, hence a picture.

Derbasti 4 days ago 1 reply      
I am actually somewhat worried about the longevity of our current tools. When we die, what will happen to our digital photos, and writings? Will our children find our diary in our home directory like they do when it sits on the bedside table? Will they look at our wedding pictures like they do when they find old photo albums? Will they remember our PhD thesis when it was never printed, but only ever a pdf?

Quite possibly, we might end up a forgotten generation, since procedures for cataloging digital memorabilia will only be invented after the lessons learned from the deaths of the first digital natives. One can only hope that archive.org will at least have an ugly copy of our blog.

RivieraKid 4 days ago 0 replies      
Not sure what the fuss is about. Sometimes text is optimal, other times images, video or something else is more suitable. I don't really understand the point of this article.
jokoon 4 days ago 1 reply      
People can read text and understand it. Computers need parsers. Parsers are hard to write, and the time needed to parse one text will be just proportionate to the length of the text. Parsing can't be parallelized.

I'm sure the browser industry could benefit from a open, compiled html format, it would be so fast. I still wonder why there is no such format.

It's not about filesize though, gzip does a really great job at compressing text, but it's just about making a page load faster. It's no surprise to see web browser use so much memory: html is very flexible (there's nothing better), but it's fat.

That is a problem somewhat similar to the RISC vs x86. Risc has a simpler set of instructions, is a faster processor, but executables are much much bigger, requiring more cache. x86 has a more complex set of instructions, so it's slower, but the executables are much smaller. It's a balance to find.

I wonder if you could extend battery life by using compiled html. I would love to test that kind of tech on "normal" cellphones and see if how it performs.

brockers 4 days ago 1 reply      
There are 20 year old binary formats that we cannot recover because we have lost their decoders. There are 4000 year old texts we have been able to decipher because text is so many orders of magnitude easier to decode. There are anthropologists who argue that it wasn't tools or speech that led humanity out of caves, but writing (and the abstract thought that is facilitates.
xg15 4 days ago 5 replies      
Please describe an average Git commit graph as text in a way that you can actually draw some insight from it. And no, ASCII art doesn't count.
vph 4 days ago 0 replies      
If done properly, multimedia can convey information that text cannot possibly do. Text just lack the dimensions that multimedia have. An example includes the RSA Animate series, which take really good books written by really good authors and condensed that into very informative 5-minute videos.
Chirael 4 days ago 1 reply      
I know there are reasons for it, but I'm still sad to read that HTTP/2 will use a binary format instead of text :(http://http2.github.io/faq/
ThomPete 4 days ago 0 replies      
Although it's certainly true text is powerful, text is also a reduction of reality.

There is a whole universe of things phenomena text it's sub-optimal for. Experiences being one of them.

damian2000 4 days ago 1 reply      
I don't get the point of this to be honest ... things that can be stored as text generally are, those that aren't, e.g. videos, photos, sound files, can't be represented by text - they're media.
netcan 4 days ago 0 replies      
text is the most powerful, useful, effective communication technology

True, and very interesting to consider.

OTOH, if you can simulate a person who knows how to express themselves speaking to you personally, there's and even technology you tap into. That's a technology we have actually adapted to biologically.

Everything else is just hijacking faculties designed to allow your uncle to explain to you how to make rope from bark.

elliotec 4 days ago 2 replies      
This is a great argument for text over icons in design. I wonder if in 250 years people will still know what the 3 bars (hamburger?) icon did.
duaneb 4 days ago 0 replies      
I would like to point out that cave art far predates any substantial 'text' we might have. Even if just as a shape to form a glyph, images are by far the most powerful method of human communicationno language is at all necessary. Language can add power, but at such a cost (learning a language takes years).
xioxox 4 days ago 0 replies      
Text is great, but graphs and diagrams are often better for representing certain kinds of information or relationships. When I read a scientific paper, the figures are often what I look at first after the title, sometimes even before the abstract.
Istof 4 days ago 0 replies      
"Text is the oldest and most stable communication technology [...]"

I don't really know but text is probably not the oldest...

joeheyming 4 days ago 0 replies      
This is why scripting/interpreted languages are vastly faster to produce than compiled programming languages.
cLeEOGPw 4 days ago 1 reply      
I guess I'll have to drop Blender and use text files to create 3D models, because some guy on the internet thinks that text is "the most powerful, useful, effective communication technology ever, period".

If the point of the article was to trick people into clicking, then it succeeded in that I guess.

tempodox 4 days ago 0 replies      
That's why Unix uses text, and not some binary form, for most data exchange.
chj 4 days ago 0 replies      
The vast information in DNA is also represented in "text", sort of.
bnjs 4 days ago 0 replies      
Some stuff is good for stuff. Other stuff is good for other stuff. :)
0xdeadbeefbabe 4 days ago 0 replies      
Text is just small pictures, so always bet on small pictures.
huhrly 4 days ago 0 replies      
I'm disappointed the author has illustrated their article.
sanxiyn 4 days ago 0 replies      
This is why Snapchat is a chat, in addition to being a snap.
adnam 4 days ago 0 replies      
And then there's XML...
PhasmaFelis 4 days ago 1 reply      
I liked the article, but in retrospect I'm not clear what it's arguing against. What are the technologies that people have promoted to the author but are trumped by text? I feel like there's an interesting story there.
VLM 4 days ago 0 replies      
No discussion of labor? You guys are missing a major part of the argument.

Looking at OPs article, if my purpose is to explain human rights, text is staggeringly more efficient in labor of creation, not just time spent interpreting it or storing it or searching it.

An artists life work might produce a painting that conveys the entire meaning of the definition from the article of human rights. Maybe. I bet that would be an amazing painting and I'd enjoy viewing it. But ... aside from high art, can we afford general commerce in an artistic style? Is it affordable for society to create an interpretive dance implementation of my mortgage statement and is that a wise use of limited artistic skill and labor?

Its possible to create deeply meaningful works of art, at staggering expense of materials and labor both creation and interpretation and storage and archiving. That doesn't mean that most human creations (my water bill, the instructions for my TV, the receipt Amazon included with my $4 HDMI cable) are worthy of artistic labor.

If a graphics artist or painter is any good, I don't want that artist to waste time on my electric bill, I'd much rather have the fruits of their labor hanging on a wall in a frame. If they're not any good, I don't want them screwing up my electric bill making it incomprehensible.

anilshanbhag 4 days ago 4 replies      
The arguments presented are highly biased. Text is great but images conveying the same meaning are always better. Why ? We can grasp the same information when conveyed via image. Say you are conveying an idea to someone or speaking to a conference - you always try to minimize text and use graphics to illustrate concepts as people tend to understand faster that way.
Tsukiko 4 days ago 1 reply      
Fuck Hacker News.The comment system here sucks camel's ass.

After 5 comments I couldn't post for -1.5- 3 hours.That's fucking retarded.And your fucking emotional downvote shit.Worst fucking site for discussion ever.

I thought I could come back but after being involved in more free communities this site feels like a fucking prison where you get beaten and put in a quarantine cell for saying nigger or jew or fucking anything that might offend someone's fucking ass.

Fuck you Fapper Jews.

From Novice to Master, and Back Again
346 points by walrus  7 days ago   27 comments top 6
petercooper 6 days ago 4 replies      
This is the hardcore version of the more common "Google for help on something and get your own blog post/Stack Overflow answer coming up"! :-)
beat 6 days ago 5 replies      
"Geez, what idiot wrote this code? Oh yeah, me."

I hate that feeling.

onedognight 6 days ago 0 replies      
Given that he is listed as an author for ls, cp, mv, ln, rmdir and yes, yes as well, I can see how he might forget that he wrote su.
akbar501 6 days ago 0 replies      
This article is a good reminder of why writing documentation (and commenting code) is important. Often the reader of your docs is you.
bobowzki 6 days ago 1 reply      
I did not expect that ending.
segmondy 6 days ago 1 reply      
Use it or lose it, it happens to the best of us. There is only so much I can remember at one time, I don't even worry about it, so long as I can find a way to look it up. I wish I had a photographic memory. Knowing that I don't, I don't obsess about remembering the details only the high level over view of things.
How Apples Siri Became One Autistic Boy's B.F.F
347 points by k-mcgrady  1 day ago   79 comments top 18
robert_tweed 1 day ago 6 replies      
This is a great article that highlights some things people have been thinking about for a while (starting with Isaac Asimov), but haven't been much of an immediate concern until now: namely the nature of artificial intelligence and our relationship with it.

We could consider the emergence of a friendship like this a milestone, a bit like when chess AI got good enough to beat a typical club player, but wasn't quite ready to beat Kasparov. We're probably only a few years away (OK, maybe 10+, but it's not 50+) from the Kasparov point, where an AI like Siri can beat the turing test for any living human.

There are all sorts of questions like whether, to be considered alive and imbued with the inalienable rights that should come with sentience, is self-awareness necessary, or is the anthropomorphic perception of nearby humans more important? Should an AI have similar rights by proxy as a pet dog?

One especially important question is what does it mean for an AI to die? If Siri developed a fault, and fixing that fault would cause a change in personality so that it was no longer recognisable to Gus as his BFF, should that act be called "roboticide"? Such questions are particularly relevant when AI/ML systems (deep recurrent nets, for example) are so complex that we don't really understand them fully, so we have no way to surgically correct specific faults; all we can do is revert to an earlier state and re-train. That may be loss of life, for certain definitions of "life".

As an occasional game developer, I tend to think about these issues in other contexts too, such as our relationship with virtual characters in games. It's already very easy to get highly immersed in single-player virtual worlds, like any of the Elder Scrolls games. Most would not be fooled into thinking that an NPC is "alive", but it's certainly possible to develop emotional reactions to certain characters that we perhaps like because they say nice things about us, or dislike because we find then annoying, etc.

There are two kinds of character interaction a person can have in a game: NPCs and human avatars. As we start to build virtual worlds (partly spurred by the Oculus Rift and partly just because of the Internet), this could affect not only our relationship with NPCs, but with other humans too. I don't know whether this will a net positive or negative thing, but we're certainly going to learn a lot about human psychology as we head towards the point where, in VR, nobody knows you're a human.

cwilson 22 hours ago 0 replies      
If you enjoyed this read you should watch the movie "Her" by Spike Jonze, as mentioned in the article. It hits quite heavily on the same theme (though more focused on romantic relationships with AI) and offers a pretty realistic glimpse of what this technology might look like in the next 20 years. Really enjoyed the movie.

On the same note, I was talking to someone a few days ago who was telling me about how many of her girlfriends use Tinder to essentially have virtual boyfriends. She explained that in many cases they meet guys via Tinder, move to text-messaging, and the relationship never progresses to in-person meetings. They simply love having someone on the other end of their phones to talk to. The knowledge that someone is there at almost all times seems to be comforting and addicting. Kinda crazy, but again this kind of thing is only going to become more and more common due to the fact that technology is in everyone's pocket from a young age now.

The question I ended the conversation with was something along the lines of, "Do you think they care that it's an actual human on the other end? Would they be ok with really convincing AI?"

Food for thought.

arjie 1 day ago 1 reply      
Wow, what a piece! I am incredibly impressed with the range of responses that Siri has. I wonder just how many questions they've entered responses to. Certainly some stuff can be learned, but responding to requests to marriage is certainly written at some level by a human.
jhanschoo 1 day ago 1 reply      
This article reminded me of Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age, where the protagonist receives a book that became her closest companion and mentor in her life.
Steko 23 hours ago 0 replies      
I think Siri is pretty useful as a conversation partner for foreign language. I had tried out the British and Scottish voices for kicks, settled on Aussie for quite awhile and then while playing with my wife's Japanese Siri realized it was actually excellent language practice.
JaredPeters 23 hours ago 2 replies      
Siri does have a very friendly sounding voice. I've been using the Siri voice library (not the AI) in a classroom robot that help kids with autism engage with their therapy.
tormeh 1 day ago 2 replies      
Holy shit, we live in the future!
amtab 20 hours ago 1 reply      
One really interesting idea related to the passing of the Turing test and formation of relationships between humans and AIs:

Our relationships with other humans have become increasingly digital, progressing from face to face communication to letters to the telephone to text / facebook / other social messages. Each step in this progression lowers the bar drastically for AI to start fulfilling peoples' social needs. We can now maintain or even establish a relationship with another human solely using text-based messaging, and I believe that soon we will reach the point where AIs can get 90% of the way there. I don't know when it will happen but I wouldn't bet against it.

melling 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Btw, I noticed that Yosemite has slightly enhanced its dictation tool for use with Automater. Might come in handy.


aroman 1 day ago 2 replies      
Fascinatingly, I tried asking Siri "Siri, will you mary me?" and her response was:

"I sure have received a lot of marriage proposals recently!"

For the first time, I was genuinely impressed with Siri's pseudo-intelligence/wit.

(Can we assume someone on the Siri team at Apple read this article?)

TulliusCicero 1 day ago 1 reply      
This piece is absolutely adorable.
MBCook 1 day ago 3 replies      
Can anyone get the "Are there any flights me?" query to work? It just keeps doing a Bing search showing pages talking about the fact that Siri can do it.

Wolfram Alpha can answer the question if I got to the site, so the data is definitely there.

colinbartlett 15 hours ago 0 replies      
This has some relevance to a product I've been working on for a little while: https://www.getpuzzlepiece.com. It's an Android tablet and apps specifically for kids with Autism. (Coming soon to iOS.)
ed 1 day ago 3 replies      
I've never used Android's voice recognition does it have similar scripted responses?
intopieces 1 day ago 0 replies      
I enjoyed this piece, but the middle section about the author and "Should I call Richard" seemed entirely out of place. It did not match the tone of the story and did not sound genuine.
mcv 13 hours ago 0 replies      
There's something in my eye, and it's leaking.
joering2 12 hours ago 1 reply      
This story should be an inspiration for the 21-st century version of the "Little Prince" st. Expury.
_asciiker_ 1 day ago 0 replies      
+1 for friendly AI (even with its narrowness)
Firefox 33
332 points by digitalcreate  4 days ago   240 comments top 34
romanovcode 4 days ago 5 replies      
Jeez FF really stepping up the game. Seems like 32 was released just yesterday.

I'm not sure if there are any performance issues since I switched to FF about a year ago when bought new laptop with SSD and 16 gigs of ram it's as fast as Chrome. As for webdev tools, they are not worse, you are just too used to webkit ones. I might even say that FF has better dev tools because you can modify request and re-send it.

I switched because Google is trying to integrate Google too much into Chrome. That's definitely not something I look in a browser since I would like it to be independent and not spy on what I type/do.

Anyway, if anyone who is contributing to FF reading this I just want to thank you for best browser ever.

nemetroid 4 days ago 4 replies      
> Improved search experience through the location bar [1]

Really happy to see this one. Previously single-word searches were so slow that I'd usually have time to remember that they are slow, press C-e, and enter the same search term in the search bar, all before the browser realises there is no matching host and does a web search instead.

1: http://msujaws.wordpress.com/2014/08/01/faster-and-snappier-...

riquito 4 days ago 2 replies      
The "ev" tag next to the DOM elements with events seems really useful


pontjho 4 days ago 4 replies      
Love the improvements but how about an html5 date picker? Surely that is not hard?
xenophonf 4 days ago 4 replies      
So here's something I've noticed that's confused me about Firefox's cookie handling: I have cookies turned off, but a PREF cookie for google.com keeps getting set. I've even tried blocking cookies from google.com, but I still see this cookie. I turned off Do Not Track but haven't tried disabling SafeBrowsing or all my extensions, so maybe it is one of those. Has anyone noticed this, too?
zobzu 4 days ago 1 reply      
Interestingly this is not mentioned in this huge post, but according to http://arewefastyet.com/ Firefox JS is faster than Chrome and Safari in all benchmarks in both 32 and 64bit modes since quite a few month!

It used to be that Chrome marketing was pushing for this as being so much faster on Chrome than others so that's a pretty nice feat.

skrowl 4 days ago 3 replies      
Best browser keeps getting better. "If you know a Chrome user, get them to switch to Firefox" is going to be the new "If you know an IE user ..."
Spiritus 4 days ago 1 reply      
I wish they would put some effort into making Firefox feel more native on OS X, for example:

- Builtin support for Keychain (without relying on an extension).

- swipe-animation when going forward/backwards in history.

- "over-scroll" (you know, when you can sort sort scroll past the top and bottom of the page).

I know it sounds a bit vain, but I simply can't make a switch unless the look and feel is native to OS X.

SloopJon 4 days ago 7 replies      
The Latin1 optimization looks interesting. It seems like a big improvement for such a simple change (granted that it took one developer two months to do).

Activity Monitor reports that Firefox 32.0.3 is using 21 GB on my Mac. That makes for sluggish performance, even with 32 GB of RAM. Looking forward to trying Firefox 33.

dannysu 4 days ago 1 reply      
I read the changelog and saw that proprietary window.crypto functions are removed. I actually make use of window.crypto.getRandomValues(), and good thing that's not going away:https://wiki.mozilla.org/SecurityEngineering/Removing_Propri...
nd7 4 days ago 2 replies      
Please tell me, how to return the gray background in a new tab? And how to return to the number rows and columns of picture thumbnails not decreased when the window changes at

half-screen, non-rounded thumbnails?That new UI makes me sad...

chdir 4 days ago 2 replies      
I'd be delighted to use FF on iPad. I do a lot of leisure browsing/reading and I want to support FF on all my devices. Is their stand still the same i.e. We refuse to bring Firefox to iOS until Apple lets us use our web engine ?


justcommenting 4 days ago 1 reply      
still no cookie UI fix.... very disappointing, especially for an organization that claims to pride itself on protecting user privacy while dropping google analytics and google cookies on users... probably because they're so heavily dependent on google's money.
munimkazia 4 days ago 3 replies      
The "send to chromecast" feature on Firefox android app is awesome, but I was kinda hoping that they added this to the desktop application too. I know that stuff like this is usually left for add-ons, but there isn't a good firefox add on which does Chromecast, unlike the several options on the Chrome web store.
Animats 4 days ago 1 reply      
It's disappointing that the H.264 video player support is not open source. Most of the patents managed by MPEG-LA have expired, and the ones that remain are either encoding-side only or for features nobody uses much, like interlace. Check out the patent lists.



Most of the remaining patents expire in 2015. There are a few for 2017, but they're for features nobody really needs in a computer decoder.

AshleysBrain 4 days ago 1 reply      
I think Firefox 33 also enables Direct3D 11 rendering on Windows. Can anyone confirm? I've just been digging through bugzilla and can't find a clear reference to that, but it's an interesting change if so.
bsbechtel 4 days ago 7 replies      
Since upgrading to the last version (32), Firefox has become a significant resource hog on my machine. It has become considerably worse than any other browser. Has anyone else had this issue?
megablast 4 days ago 0 replies      
I had a real problem updating from 31 to 32. What usually is done automatically did not work. It kept on asking me if I would like to, and after saying yes it just kept stalling. This was in 2 different workplaces and at home, where I have not had trouble before.

I ended up having to download it from the website, which was not an obvious experience.

AndyKelley 3 days ago 0 replies      
Still doesn't have the one feature I've been waiting for: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=792831
hosay123 4 days ago 2 replies      
Note: Firefox currently uses OpenH264 only for WebRTC and not for the <video> tag, because OpenH264 does not yet support the high profile format frequently used for streaming video. We will reconsider this once support has been added.

Yay, another decade before we get YouTube on OS X

jodybdesigns 4 days ago 1 reply      
I am currently running Win10 Dev preview full fledged on a daily work machine. Off topic, Win 10 works great except for a few USB bugs not allowing me to format USB drives.

My usage is not as high as im reading. But a lot of my usage comes from Adblock. I have 5 browser windows open, with about 5-10 tabs each, im currently @ 760mb on Win 10.

A nice bug I get is from Firebug. When I am debugging a site, and I try to hover over my Taskbar icons to grab a new window, it flashes for about 2 seconds on whatever im hovering, and I have to try again, the second try usually leaves my taskbar windows open. If I close Firebug, this problem stops.

I also notice when I run flash (I stream mixtapes from datpiff.com), my usage goes sky high. I have been trying some debug options in about:config, and I think I have knocked the usage down by modifying a few lines.

Also another bug I experience on Win10 with Firefox is my top bar will completely disappear, I have to alt+F4 to close out Firefox and re-open. Maybe Firefox 33 will fix some of these issues.

SloopJon 4 days ago 1 reply      
Hmm, after upgrading and restoring the session, all of my Hacker News tabs now show a Secure Connection Failed error: "The OCSP response contains out-of-date information. (Error code: sec_error_ocsp_old_response)"
twombly 4 days ago 0 replies      
Do the Firefox releases have anything to do with the Spidermonkey releases? I've been seeing the placeholder page for Spidermonkey 31 for a couple of months now...
Eleopteryx 4 days ago 2 replies      
I can finally watch 60FPS videos on YouTube thanks to the HTML5 player being fully functional now.
yarrel 4 days ago 0 replies      
Did they remove the DRM infection mechanism in this build?
whoisthemachine 4 days ago 2 replies      
Anxiously awaiting the Waterfox build!
notastartup 4 days ago 0 replies      
I begin to use Firefox more now than Chrome. Chrome has gotten really slow. like I navigate to a url, it will redirect to about:blank;

watching youtube or soundcloud sends cpu crazy active.

i remember I switched to chrome from firefox 5 years ago because of those reasons. now I find myself using firefox for the same reason, chrome is sluggish. I also don't feel creeped out.

ck2 4 days ago 0 replies      
34 beta1 is also out and looks good

was hoping for native h264 to be working by now but apparently not


pearjuice 4 days ago 2 replies      
Did they fix the exponential usage of RAM for every extra tab yet? Stop saying that not used RAM is wasted RAM. I would like to do things with a browser in the background instead of closing and opening it everytime due to disproportionate RAM usage.

For reference, Chromium doesn't have this issue.

J_Darnley 4 days ago 2 replies      
I asked this last time...

Does this remove the horrible Australis UI?

melling 4 days ago 0 replies      

Don't most of HN users just use the Nightly's or the Canary build for Chrome?


People complaining about the memory usage all the time seem a bit strange. Just buy a nice machine and help test betas so Google and Mozilla can move faster.

zenciadam 4 days ago 1 reply      
Is this the version that doesn't use 100% of your memory with more than three tabs open?
Figs 4 days ago 1 reply      
Great... so what long standing piece of UI did they screw around with this time that'll make me want to tear out my hair for a week until I either force myself to get used to it or give in to installing more 3rd party plugin crap to restore the functionality of?

I've seriously come to dread browser updates lately.

magsafe 4 days ago 6 replies      
Apparently someone out there still uses Firefox.
A Raw Deal in Michigan
342 points by lalwanivikas  1 day ago   191 comments top 19
skrebbel 1 day ago 14 replies      
Using a procedure that prevented legislators and the public at large from knowing what was happening or allowing debate, Senator Joe Hune added new language in an attempt to lock Tesla out of the State. Unsurprisingly, Senator Hune counts the Michigan Automobile Dealers Association as one of his top financial contributors, and his wifes firm lobbies for the dealers.

In the Netherlands, we call this corruption.

(It happens too, but so openly? Don't you guys have rules against this? Or media who like scandals?)

danielhunt 1 day ago 10 replies      
As an outsider, it really is difficult to understand why these practices are supported/allowed by the public.Is this information even available to people outside of the tech community?

What in the hell is wrong with US politics* that allows for this to happen so blatantly, and so regularly, without any repercussions at all?

* I'm aware that it's not (in general) a US-only problem, but for Tesla and the car dealership world, it seems that this is a real problem

Al__Dante 1 day ago 1 reply      
I think this might be the relevant change (contained in bill S-1 which was substituted in the Regulatory Reform Committee):

"2 (i) Sell any new motor vehicle directly to a retail customer3 other than through <del>its</del> franchised dealers, unless the retail4 customer is a nonprofit organization or a federal, state, or local5 government or agency. This subdivision does not prohibit a6 manufacturer from providing information to a consumer for the7 purpose of marketing or facilitating the sale of new motor vehicles8 or from establishing a program to sell or offer to sell new motor9 vehicles through the <del>manufacturer's</del> FRANCHISED new motor vehicle10 dealers THAT SELL AND SERVICE NEW MOTOR VEHICLES PRODUCED BY THE11 MANUFACTURER."

Link to the passage of the bill: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(zkgdwb45ddzp3imtvsszat55))/...

Link to the substitute bill: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(zkgdwb45ddzp3imtvsszat55))/...

minimax 1 day ago 0 replies      
The State of Illinois would like to extend a warm welcome to the people of Michigan, and invite them (and their tax dollars) to visit one of the several Tesla stores in the Chicago area.
jstalin 1 day ago 0 replies      
Just called the governor's office and the lady answering the phone was quite nice. I urge all other residents of Michigan to do the same.
RankingMember 1 day ago 0 replies      
FYI: Here's a direct link to the web form for sharing your opinion with the Michigan governor's office:https://somgovweb.state.mi.us/GovRelations/ShareOpinion.aspx
khaki54 1 day ago 1 reply      
As a Michigan native (though long gone) and someone erring on the side of conservatism, this is just a disappointment all around. Michigan is historically manufacturer friendly - to a fault, so they really went out of their way here.

Eventually all of these statutes will probably be stricken down due to the commerce clause... you are buying the vehicle direct from another state, therefore it's interstate commerce.

anigbrowl 1 day ago 0 replies      
By striking a single, but critical, word from MCLA 445.1574(14)(1)(i), the law governing franchise relations in Michigan, the dealers seek to force Tesla [...]

Well, don't tell us what it is or provide any links to it... /eyeroll. I believe their complaint is about line 3 on page 6 of the following document: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2013-2014/billengros...

I support Tesla's efforts and deplore the legislative pandering to incumbent industries, but drumming up support for a legal/political conflict without articulating the actual issue is counter-productive. All that happens is that people send emails or make phone calls to the legislative body saying they're outraged, and then get fobbed off with technicalities because >95% of the outraged people don't actually know what they're complaining about, they only know one party's assertion of what the downsides will be. If you want an internet army to go into battle for you, arm them properly with the facts.

smoyer 1 day ago 0 replies      
Does anyone else get the sense that the Tesla Legal and Public Relations departments are starting to have fun attacking the politicians who push these bills through? The wording feels different than most corporate press releases.
hippich 1 day ago 1 reply      
When I hear about Tesla not being able to sell directly to customers, and have to go through dealer, I always wondered why different corporate structure can not be created, where some head company owns Tesla and all dealerships used to sell Tesla cars? This way it is not manufacturer selling these and control of the distribution is still within parent organization.
saturdaysaint 1 day ago 2 replies      
The funny thing is that Michigan's legislature is run by yokel conservatives who made a big show of becoming a "right to work" state (i.e. making it illegal to have mandatory all-union workplaces) - when corporate interests and Fox News talking points were at stake, they were remarkably eager to thump their chests about free association.
Someone 1 day ago 1 reply      
Harsh statements, but no facts from objective sources. Looking for that, I can find stuff from 'the other side' at http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ejuo53qtuul1s2fn2o4sa255))/... where if I reading this right (aside: 'interesting' reuse of "(i)" as both ninth letter of the alphabet and Roman numeral) section i reads

"(1) A manufacturer shall not do any of the following:

(i) Sell any new motor vehicle directly to a retail customer other than through its franchised dealers, unless the retail customer is a nonprofit organization or a federal, state, or local government or agency. This subdivision does not prohibit a manufacturer from providing information to a consumer for the purpose of marketing or facilitating the sale of new motor vehicles or from establishing a program to sell or offer to sell new motor vehicles through the manufacturer's new motor vehicle dealers."

, but that text isn't recent (see the history at the bottom).

What exactly did they change and what were the arguments?

canvia 1 day ago 0 replies      
The state Senator responsible for this is up for election in 2 weeks. This is his opponent and she accepts donations: http://www.voteforshari.com/
navait 1 day ago 1 reply      
Elon musk has so much money, why can't he just be his own lobbyist instead of getting his fanboys on this. I have no stake in this.
jstalin 1 day ago 0 replies      
Here's a follow-up article on the issue from today. Some are claiming that Tesla direct sales are already illegal in Michigan:


ams6110 1 day ago 2 replies      
Michigan is in the toilet. Detroit is bankrupt, huge parts of the city are abandoned ruins, and the rest of the state isn't much better off. Tesla probably would not sell many cars there anyway. If I'm wrong, it's a good opportunity for northern Indiana or Ohio to court a Tesla store.
briandear 1 day ago 2 replies      
But this really comes down to voting. Why does a better funded candidate win? Because a TV ad convinced some idiot to vote for that candidate? I see informercials and "work from home and make millions" scams all the time. But I don't buy the product whatever it might be. Yet voters seemingly are completely ignorant. So candidates who are well funded by special interests end up winning. But often these anti-competitive practices are in primarily Democrat controlled areas. Uber is a great example: Austin, DC city councils for example are entirely Democrat and thus beholder to "labor" and anti-competitive practices. This isn't exclusively a democrat practice, however much of the time it is. The NY and San Francisco war against AirBnB for example is about collecting more taxes. The anti-competitive closed-shop system is entirely democrat supported. The endless taxes and regulation of business is a democrat obsession. Certain national democrats sometimes go against the trend, especially the tech-oriented. But the boots on the ground Democrats are especially prone to anti-competitive tendencies. Protectionism is a hallmark of the AFL-CIO and they completely support (and significantly fund) the Democrat party. I'm not saying "Republicans are good," there are plenty of shit Republicans, however philosophically, Democrats are anti-competitive by nature because the concept of the free market goes against their core values of so-called 'economic justice.' Honestly ask yourself, if this Tesla decision were in the hands of Rand Paul or John Conyers, who would be more likely to support the free market in this situation? Would Ronald Reagan be more likely to support Tesla that Obama? Almost certainly, based on their records. Obama for instance through his supporters on the NLRB have opposed companies such as Boeing to build non-Union factories -- which is in-effect the same thing we have with Tesla -- an attempt to maintain a type of monopoly and artificially constrain the free market in order to serve a specific narrow group of voters and interests. That's what's happening here: the auto dealers, just like the AFL-CIO did with Boeing, are attempting to artificially protect their monopoly position, to the detriment of the population as a whole. I know this comment won't win me many friends here, but I hope that everyone at least researches guys like Rand Paul -- not the propaganda (in either direction) but what he actually says and stands for. If we can get more politicians like him, then perhaps we can start to realize that we can have freer markets, more personal freedoms and perhaps a government that knows when to get out of the way (and knows when to get in the way.) If anyone has the time or the inclination, read the book 'Economics in One Lesson.'
Shivetya 1 day ago 3 replies      

If you refuse to do business with the state, go as far as to discourage people living there form buying them, eventually there could be enough public pressure to bring about a change.

If not that, perhaps a few billboards equating the politicians to Neanderthals might work

Its time to ignore the states that refuse to play fair, shame them, and perhaps their voters will wake up.

cellis 1 day ago 2 replies      
Tesla wants to have its cake and eat it too. You can't take a 500 million loan from taxpayers ( the vast majority of whom DON'T benefit from and can't afford your product ) and then on the other hand claim unfair treatment by local governments.
Mac App Store: The Subtle Exodus
333 points by milen  4 days ago   244 comments top 32
coldcode 4 days ago 5 replies      
As much as I support Apple and have been since 1979, including being an early Mac developer in 1985 and even working there in the horrible mid-90's, the major problem is that Tim and Jony don't care (and Steve didn't either for that matter) about developers enough to do anything more than what works for Apple. Whether the people in charge have no budget or don't care or are hamstrung by politics, nothing will change until and if the top people start to care. Apple makes so much money even with all the crap we have to put up with as developers they clearly have no reason to change and sadly I don't expect them to. You don't tell the world's most valuable company how to run their business. It didn't work for people telling Microsoft in the 90's or Apple today.

Sorry for the brutal truth but it is what it is.

gozmike 4 days ago 0 replies      
Interestingly this weekend at Cingleton, Rich Siegel announced that BBEdit was leaving the Mac App store... not for any one technical issue with it but for "sanity".

Essentially, the app store dynamics add stress to the process of shipping mac software for most developers and they add this stress at the end of the release cycle when a developer is already at their most tense moment.

Having deployed many products on Apple's stores, I can say that I completely relate to this and so did the crowd at Cingleton. I expect many other apps to follow suit...

heychristian 4 days ago 4 replies      
I'm the CEO of Paddle (https://www.paddle.com/sell), we're essentially trying to solve this exact problem for OS X developers, by providing App Store functionality, and more, for those selling outside the MAS (IAPs, Analytics, Payments, Trials, Activations/ Licensing).

The lack of trial versions aside (which is still a huge problem), one of the primary issues with the MAS is the flat-out exclusion of certain categories of application. For example, system utilities are almost totally banned from the MAS, and the system tools/ utilities that are currently available in the Mac App Store tend to just be slimmed down versions of their non-MAS counterparts with lots of functionality removed.

I speak to hundreds of OS X developers every week, and the sentiment around the MAS is gradually changing. Typically we're hearing developers just referring to the MAS as a marketing channel these days, due to the restrictions enforced on them.

We see a lot of data around MAS vs. Non-MAS sales, and reasons for developers switching, so if anyone has any questions about this space, I'd be happy to answer.

benaiah 4 days ago 2 replies      
> As a consequence, developers producing high quality apps reduce their prices significantly to levels that consumers can afford to take a gamble on.

I wonder if this is Apple's entire point in taking this stance. The cheaper, more numerous, and better the apps, the more attractive the platform, and Apple may be betting that developers will just put up with it, at least on iOS, due to their massive market share. The MAS system might be the way it is simply to keep in ideological step with the iOS App Store. That's the only explanation I can come up with for their bizarre behavior WRT the MAS.

mmuro 4 days ago 1 reply      
Ok, so Coda 2.5, BBEdit, TextExpander and other developer-type apps can't be in the App Store because they can't be sandboxed. Fine, if it's a developer-type tool that has to do things most everyday users aren't going to need, do it outside the Mac App Store. For everything else, the Mac App Store is great.

In fact, I'm such a fan of the Mac App Store that I wish every app could conform to it's rules so I wouldn't have to dig out a lame license key, or heaven help me, email the vendor for some time sensitive generated key thing.

dchuk 4 days ago 3 replies      
I've complained about the lack of app trials via the mac/iOS app stores for years now. It would be SO EASY for them to incorporate this functionality for developers to allow, where I can try a full version of an app for a certain amount of time and then it would lock me out until I purchased it.

Not having that feature has easily stopped me from giving at least 50% of apps I've found a shot simply because I don't want to make a blind purchase based on 5 screenshots.

credo 4 days ago 2 replies      
I agree with all four points mentioned by the writer, IMO of those four reasons, the biggest problem is the absence of "paid upgrades"

Not being able to charge for updates is a problem that affects almost every single paid app (assuming the app is supported across multiple versions and major updates) in all the app stores. This is an unsustainable proposition for most developers.

At a recent Seattle Xcoders meeting in Redmond, our speaker spoke about how he had given up his indie business and had now switched to contracting (disclosure: I run this meeting and had asked the speaker to speak).

At the meeting, I noted that Apple made its profits through hardware and they could therefore afford to make their software free. Similarly, Google is an ads company and so they don't need to charge for their software. However, the dominance of these companies means that most users/consumers expect all their software to be free (and the small minority that downloads paid apps wants upgrades to be free).

It is going to be an uphill battle for any "software" company to survive in the future. IMO that applies primarily to indie devs (I'm one myself) who sell apps in the app stores, but the problem also extends to large companies like Microsoft.

stdgy 4 days ago 4 replies      
Has any team ever tried to put together a system equivalent to Steam for Desktop application distribution?

I'm imagining a cross-platform(Well, for desktops) store that would make it easy for developers to release applications, distribute updates, distribute trials and manage payments using a number of different models(single purchase, upgrade discounts, weekly/monthly/yearly subscriptions, all kinds of things).

It's upsetting that good software doesn't have a good way to be distributed and searched for in 2014. I feel like we, as developers, should be taking the initiative here, not sitting on our haunches hoping Apple and Microsoft give us something that works.

joesmo 4 days ago 4 replies      
The last place I go to get apps for OS X is the MAS. If it's available outside of the store, I always prefer that. There is nothing compelling about the MAS and there never has been. It's ridiculous that I have to sign in to get free apps or OS updates. For OS updates and apps that offer no other way of installation, it's a concession I make grudgingly. Why should Apple be a middle-man in my software purchases/downloads while offering absolutely nothing over more traditional methods of installation, not even convenience?
jnem 4 days ago 8 replies      
This is especially interesting for me because I am on the cusp of a technological coup in my own home. I've been a "PC" my whole life, and have somehow gotten away with never buying an Apple product, and never felt the lack.

However, many of the reasons I avoided Apple in the past are now irrelevant, as all but Linux now attempt the same fascist business model (The rings/rules of Apple QA for software, and One store with which to rule them all). My go-to argument against Apple in the past was:

"In order to get an application or piece of software into the Apple ecosystem, you have to go through Apple. Apple has a strict QA process, every app that gets into the store has to vetted by one of Apples legions of QA staff. This sounds good; we want quality apps. However, a great deal of Apples QA rules for acceptance arent just about app quality, but also nebulous ideas of morality and ethics. The problem with that is, when only one agency is in control of what is proper and what isnt, we are left with a situation where one agency gets to control what you see, use, and by environmental influencethink. Now, imagine everyone exclusively owns an Apple product

Ironically, this notion is very 1984, and my stance on it was a bit extremish to be sure, but hey, Im a PC. Anyway, ever since Windows 8 and Windows Phone, it seems Microsoft has seen how completely Apple controls its own ecosystem, and wants a piece (complete with its own app ecosystem). Suddenly Babylon had arrived on my desktop. My initial thought was, are we going to reach a situation where there are no more open platforms to develop for? Are we going to get to a point where software can only be deployed through stores run by the same folks who run my OS? Do I have to learn Linux?!

So, long ramble short, Im thinking of joining the cult. A few years back I was given an iPad as a present. I initially resented it, labeling it a glorified TV-ala-Netflix device. I have since spent hundreds on app purchases. Is now a good time to put on my robes and worship at the altar of Jobs?

tree_of_item 4 days ago 1 reply      
Software is a service industry, not a product industry. Expect to see more software in the style of http://chrome.blogspot.com/2014/09/adobe-joins-chromebook-pa... or http://aws.amazon.com/appstream/ or even http://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/psnow in the future.

This developer is upset about the difficulty of securing a continuing revenue stream. This is exactly the problem addressed by streaming software to users instead of just giving it to them. What this developer really wants to do is _rent_ their program: when users stop paying, they stop having the software as well.

duaneb 4 days ago 1 reply      
I agree with most of the points (pricing on the app store is the worst pricing model of any I've ever used), but I like that the apps are sandboxed. If an app requires functionality outside the sandbox, I'm happy to purchase and install a (signed) version straight off the browser.
serve_yay 4 days ago 0 replies      
There are problems with the iOS app store, but the Mac one is really a disaster. It's kind of shameful actually.
grimtrigger 4 days ago 4 replies      
Its hard for me to imagine ever selling an app for a lump sum single payment. Software development is an iterative process and there needs to be a payment system reflecting that.
LCDninja 4 days ago 0 replies      
I've not read anyone mention "discoverability" as part of Apple's value proposition to developers.

Years ago I experienced great traction with the free download site Apple provided.

Prior to that - much more significant traction from the hundreds of PC download sites.

It's amazing to see how much the world has changed in 13 years for software developers. It's probably better not to look back. :/

mstolpm 4 days ago 1 reply      
While I agree with a lot of points regarding the weaknesses of the MAS, I doubt there is an exodus in sight. Two reasons: normal users and EU tax laws.

1. I know a lot of Mac users that use the MAS as the only (!) source for their software (even Scrivener and other software has come to the MAS that before was only sold through the developer website). These are "normal" users that are not developers or hardcore nerds. And they never see any problems with sandboxing (they don't even know what this is). But - and that is the beauty of the MAS for normal users: Apple has their payment info on file, allows easy browsing the catalog, easy installation, easy payment and easy canceling of the order just in case. In addition: iTunes gift cards that are sold with a discount.

2. With the new VAT laws in the EU starting 2015, it will be a pain it the ass for small developers to sell software and services through their website on their own - at least for developers in the EU.

Of course, developers of business-related software for developers might see advantages selling on their own. But an exodus?

bvogelzang 4 days ago 0 replies      
This article does a great job hitting on a lot of the pain points for developers in the MAS. While not all of these are experienced by every developer all of them hold some weight.

I've had a real tough time dealing with sandboxing especially. In my app HD Cleaner (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/hd-cleaner/id836769549?mt=12), users need to "open" their user folder in order for the application to get the proper access to files. Unfortunately this is a large hurdle for some users because they have no idea WHY they have to choose their user folder. This has lead to confusion as well as some bad reviews. The app could be a lot more efficient and convenient if these rules weren't in place. Despite this I think it's great Apple is taking security seriously. I just wish there was a better way.

72deluxe 4 days ago 0 replies      
I could never get over how slow the App Store or Software Update system was. I have a quad core Ivybridge i7 MacBook, and I still sit wondering if the Software Update program is working. I know it is frustrating in Windows land to have to repeatedly click "check for updates", particularly on a fresh install of Windows 7 but I was surprised how sluggish the App Store app was. Behind the scenes it is a HTML browser embedded I think, which I found particularly odd given the encouragement for Obj-C native development on the native platform. Just an observation - correct me if I'm wrong!
Terretta 4 days ago 2 replies      
> "Supporting app trials would be trivial" ... "zero additional complexity" ... "Supporting paid upgrades does not require much additional complexity, if any at all."

These remarks sound suspiciously like those software development clients who think their nephew could do the work for free in his spare time while cleaning the garage and playing Halo.

It's not about relabeling a button. Apple has enough talent to solve these, but these problems are not trivial.

ommunist 4 days ago 0 replies      
Unfortunately, Apple is always right and in this case you cannot even help yourself, like Apple hardware consumers do in Apple discussion forums. This is indeed soft and smoky dead end for many businesses.
tn13 4 days ago 0 replies      
I think this is a good thing. Problem with these distribution channels is that more popular they get Apple might be tempted to make it the "only" channel eventually dictating to us what software we can use and can not much similar to iPhone.

Of course what worked for iPhone would not have worked for Mac and hence there was no incentive for Apple to make Mac Store popular. Apple cares little about developers, it cares about itself.

72deluxe 4 days ago 0 replies      
I heartily agree with the devaluation of apps, the race to the bottom, the cheapest is the only one to install. The scourge of 99p apps on the App Store has spread to the other market-based ecosystems, where actual developer time and effort is considered very cheap indeed; most people I know who use Android will not ever ever pay for an app, for example. (Your experience may differ).
asherdavidson 4 days ago 1 reply      
Another possible metric for rating apps could simply be how many users use an app on a consistent basis and how many hours they've logged in the app. If you get an app that has 5 negative reviews and 1 positive review, but you have over 100 people using it everyday for a few hours it should be rated highly regardless of the negative reviews.
nsxwolf 4 days ago 3 replies      
Mac App Store is a software updater for OS X and Apple branded applications.

Don't buy games on the MAS when you could be buying them on Steam instead.

Buy other software directly from the developer's website so you can be confident you're getting the software they intended you to have, and won't get burned by the MAS no upgrades policy.

api 4 days ago 3 replies      
I can only hope. App stores are a horrible thing for developers-- you are utterly beholden to the app store and a rule change could destroy your business. They're also a horrible thing in the long run for all of us, since they lead us down a path toward a computing ecosystem where true universal computing is prohibited to ordinary users and only signed code will run.

The convenience factor is real, but it could be addressed by a better app installation and upgrade model. Apple is already way ahead there by encouraging all components of most apps to live in their .app "folder-file." What if the OS had baked-in support for update feeds from the app's developer?

The security factor though is a bit of a tragedy. Open desktop OSes have serious security issues around the installation of software. Instead of solving those issues in a way that does not degrade capability or restrict freedom, OS vendors have decided that it's easier and cheaper to sidestep them by just using the app store model and forcing all code to be signed. Your OS is no more secure... they're just limiting what can run on it. It's part security theater and part just punting on the problem.

Maybe if the app store model fails on the high end we'll get real solutions to these problems.

chj 3 days ago 0 replies      
The only good thing about App Store is visibility. People aren't going to find out your own website, but they have learned to search on App Store. Developers need to have an alternative market place that are equally easy to download and update applications.
Animats 4 days ago 1 reply      
Mac developers, be grateful that Apple still allows you to sell applications for their platform that don't go through the "Mac App Store". Apple's general approach to applications on their platforms is "if it's profitable, it's ours". Try writing a competitor to iTunes.

Apple wants to provide a good out-of-the-box experience. That means their devices come with what customers really need. Apple now views aftermarket apps the way Detroit views aftermarket car accessories.

Mac App Store developers, you are in the same business as the company that makes the little tree-shaped air fresheners for cars. Deal with it.

rismay 4 days ago 0 replies      
neillimaye 4 days ago 0 replies      
tbrock 4 days ago 6 replies      
I wonder if anyone voting this up has ever thought about what it takes to put something on the shelves of a traditional store. I think developers in general should thank their lucky stars that any of this exists.
wy 4 days ago 1 reply      
Don't blame on Mac App Store, blame on the market instead.

In case of survival, change your business model as well as monetization approaches.

ianseyer 4 days ago 2 replies      
> The Mac App Store is simply the most convenient way to purchase and download software, bar none.

to quote the great Alfredo Kojima, Gustavo Niemeyer and Michael Vogt, "lol"

How Google Works
352 points by anvarik  2 days ago   108 comments top 32
WoodenChair 2 days ago 7 replies      
I found these slides rather shallow. Smart, creative people are the best employees? Who knew! The Internet led to massive disruptions in traditional businesses? Wow!

Sorry for my cynicism/sarcasm, but I see the book campaign as Eric Schmidt positioning himself for his next role. He's trying to secure his personal Google legacy as he gets ready for an exit. I can't imagine it's all that enticing to go from CEO to chairman in a company where the founder takes back the CEO role... how much influence does that leave you?

q_revert 2 days ago 5 replies      
I started work at google pretty recently, and expressed an interest in working on a particular project. I made some notes about some of my ideas, and was putting some stuff together to show to one of the teams, to get some input before prototyping.

I asked a senior team member to have a look at the notes I had made, and see if they were ready to show to the wider team.

His advice?

"Go build something, then we can have meetings"

Coming from an academic background I find this type of thinking very refreshing.

sz4kerto 2 days ago 1 reply      
This is not how Google works, this is a PR product -- it's full of fashionable and/or trivial things that we see on various blogs every single day. I don't see why is this interesting to the HN crowd, but well, who am I to judge this. :)
codeonfire 2 days ago 6 replies      
The motivation of Google is not even discussed here. Why do you want to create a certain environment for "smart creatives?" Oh yeah, almost forgot... so they'll make products that will make Google lots of money. This always leads to a logic contradiction. If they are so smart and creative, why do they need Google? Everyone knows if you create the next g-mail you still walk in on Monday and get a salary, not equity. You might get a huge bonus, or Google might choose get another airliner instead. That's a risk you'll be taking.
dalke 2 days ago 0 replies      
The answer to "What has changed? Which assumptions do people make that are no longer true? Why does everything feel like it's speeding up?" is supposedly "Technology is transforming virtually every business sector."

It list three examples which are mostly true. But the same answer could easily have been said any time in at least the last 120 years -- and it was. I think the complaint about the shallow content in this presentation is completely justified, because there's nothing really new about the idea of change.

Steam power. Electricity. Telegraph. Telephone. Mechanical calculators. Slide rules. Cheap aluminum. Flight. Punch card sorting machines. Linotype machines. Each of those are examples where technology transformed business sectors.

The telegraph made it possible for information to reach around the world on the same day it happened. Ham radio enthusiasts talked to each other around the world, including bouncing TV signals off the moon. Scratch off the names and it's the same ideas that this presentation promotes as something somehow new. It's assumes the fallacy that what you grew up with was slow and unchanging.

It's difficult to read much of the research literature from the 1960s without hearing people talk about the "information explosion" and there being too much change and things out of balance.

Mail order is an 1800s example of "barriers to entry melting away" and is how Sears gained its fame. So was the rise of the daily newspaper, subsidized by advertising that made is possible for people to know what was available.

"Power has shifted from companies to consumers" ... Hello, the 1930s called. Consumer Reports wants to know if you would like a subscription so they can pay for rigorous testing. Or do you seriously think that mass edited unrestricted feedback can't be gamed?

"Individuals and small teams have a massive impact." etc. That sounds a lot like the HP Way, which has as point #1 "We have trust and respect for individuals"

Except, oddly enough, the Google way doesn't mention ethics. Compare to the HP Way where "We conduct our business with uncompromising integrity." and that as a good corporate citizen HP will "meet the obligations of good citizenship by making contributions to the community and to the institutions in our society which generate the environment in which we operate.

Does Google consider ethics less important than business nirvana?

What is new in this presentation that HP didn't cover in the 1960s?

skrebbel 2 days ago 1 reply      
And then Larry Page walked in and said "Focus! Everybody's goal is to push Google+ now!"
msutherl 2 days ago 2 replies      
My hope is that this is partly the case due to what is often lamented as an endemic sense of entitlement in Generation Y. Capable, well-off, "smart creatives," having been raised to believe that they can and will make a positive impact if only they try hard enough and make the right decisions. Cumulatively (not collectively, yet), they demand the conditions they need to execute and to feel like they're getting a fair bargain for their most precious resource: their "passion."

This might mean that we can make the world a better place by raising their expectations even higher. In other words, if no one will work for Google unless they are given the environment and autonomy to do truly great things, as measured by a well-considered external standard, then Google might just be forced to do great things.

We all know Google has done some things that are not so great. Regulation is one tool the public wields, but perhaps we can do something about that from the inside as well.

g123g 2 days ago 0 replies      
In addition to obviously selling the upcoming book this also seems to be selling Google to potential "smart creative" types. Kind of saying that Google is the one which has the ability to give "smart creative" types the freedom they need to flourish. So in addition to selling copies of the book Eric is also selling Google to potential employees.
galago 2 days ago 3 replies      
As a result, barriers to entry that have stood for decades are melting away. Every incumbent business is vulnerable to competition and disruption.

Upper middle class dudes from elite academic institutions create businesses. What's the new thing? Maybe I'm misstating this and I'm just going to piss away what few points I have less, but hasn't business always been this way?

Railroads killed the stagecoach, the lightbulb killed gas lamps, Craigslist killed the newspapers. Amazon might well kill Google, but if they do, its not necessarily a new thing.

rmsaksida 2 days ago 0 replies      
The presentation is a little silly, yes, but if there's any truth to it - if Google actually works this way - that could make all the difference.

There are places that simply don't give a shit about "smart creative" types, and there are places that claim to have a Google-like culture but in practice are just regular old boss-centric jobs. Every CEO wants to be like Google, but very few actually commit to it.

It usually starts like this: the CEO wants to have smart creatives and delegate decisions. But then he thinks about all that hard-won money he'll be throwing at an employee, so he hires someone middle level or fresh out of college "with huge potential". Then he systematically micromanages the guy, because he just can't make that jump. The poor soul either abides (not so smart creative after all) or quickly runs out of steam (this guy will quickly start looking at job posts). Eventually the new hire disappoints in some way and the CEO cynically complains about the failed promises of the cool tech company culture which he tried to implement.

Seeing a very successful company like Google follow these principles, and win, might influence decision makers in a positive way.

plainOldText 2 days ago 3 replies      
One line from the slides (33) - "Optimize for growth, not revenue."

I'm curious, why is everyone nowadays so obsessed with growth? Is growth really that much more important than revenue? What if you strike a balance between the two?

I remember reading what one of the WhatsApp's founders once said: "[..] we focused on business sustainability and revenue rather than getting big fast [..]" And it looks like they did alright.

christiangenco 2 days ago 1 reply      
These slides are a summary (introduction? teaser?) for Schmidt and Rosenberg's new book, How Google Works[1].

1. http://www.howgoogleworks.net/

ardoi 2 days ago 0 replies      
Interesting how on slide 15 when describing characteristics of smart creatives, out of technical knowledge, business expertise and creativity it is business expertise that is associated with needing brain power.
andy_ppp 2 days ago 0 replies      
Wow! I Love him talking about creating company culture for smart creative people! Those are presumably the same smart creative people that Google illegally stopped from competing in the job market. Nice one!
dennisgorelik 6 hours ago 0 replies      
These slides are one of recruiting tools for Google.
dothething 2 days ago 0 replies      
Seems like a desperate attempt to drum up book sales. Whomever created this could have just found motivational posters and pasted them in all 50 slides. I found nothing in this but same old tired cliches; try hard, don't give up, think big. "What's different now?"
barrystaes 2 days ago 1 reply      
That stupid webpage keeps forwarding me to an empty page after a few seconds in.
quickdraw46 2 days ago 1 reply      
Loved the presentation, makes me realise how much more difficult it is to hire and foster innovative culture here in India where the office space is still marred by the age old 'BOSS Rules' culture.
pXMzR2A 2 days ago 0 replies      
I didn't know Google as a startup that needed showcasing on HN.
junto 2 days ago 0 replies      
Page 54. For the success of those products we need to add two extra components (in my opinion):


(Technical knowledge + business expertise + creativity)

You also need:

Luck + Hard (smarter) work

modx07 2 days ago 0 replies      
"Focus on growth, not on revenue"

Not an exact quote but an idea that was expressed in the slides. I'm curious as to how one achieves this....if this was a sincere bit of advice then I'd love to learn more about what he meant!

Leander_B 2 days ago 0 replies      
And then you apply for a job and wait... wait... and wait some more with no updates. Rather fix/speed up recruiting than making bogus slides. If a customer (or applicant) expresses interest in your company, also be humble and give an answer within acceptable time.
jason_slack 2 days ago 0 replies      
I can't seem to find it but Jeff Dean did a talk a long while back about How Google's search works, how they predict. I wish I could see it again. He talks about "shard" servers.

Anyone remember this?

bsaul 2 days ago 0 replies      
I think google's culture has become quite of a joke, and only the people inside the company are still not aware of it. "Do no evil" has been replaced by "pay no tax".

They've launched two succesful products in their entire history (search engine and gmail), the rest has been bought or only work because they're given away for free.

An from what i've heard, internal culture with meetings that explain what should people at google think to really be a "googler" is turning into an orwelian nightmare ("but it's for the general good" isn't an answer to limited personnal opinion).

frozenport 2 days ago 0 replies      
If you are the top tech company is it hard to attract talent?
pibefision 2 days ago 0 replies      
I've received the book last week and read it during the weekend. It has plenty of insights and great ideas that you can take and try to use in your current area of work.
general_failure 2 days ago 1 reply      
Dunno but I found most of it fairly clichd
freshflowers 2 days ago 0 replies      
The fact that this content-free advertisement for Google gets upvoted to the front-page of a community where most people can see right through it (regardless of how they personally feel about Google) suggest HN is getting astro-turfed.

Seriously, who upvotes this?

tonydiv 2 days ago 0 replies      
I love the illustrations!
phreanix 2 days ago 0 replies      
Was that a little nod to Apple in slide 42?
peterwwillis 2 days ago 0 replies      
> "Never forget that hiring is the most important thing you do."

Uhh.... I think at least a hundred commenters on HN who've gone through Google hiring would disagree with you.

diltonm 2 days ago 0 replies      
The images were distracting, the text was not prominent enough and slide 29 is religiously and humanly offensive to several billion people.
Tor Browser 4.0 is released
315 points by conductor  2 days ago   98 comments top 11
nemesisj 2 days ago 5 replies      
The Tor project is really important, and I'm really glad the EFF supports it. It's come a long way in the last 10 years too. For about a year I ran a fairly high traffic couple of exit nodes (circa 2004) and it was a really scary experience - constant legal threats, phone calls from people screaming that we'd hacked their servers in the middle of the night, and several conversations with the lawyers of big media companies. People who run exit nodes have some serious stones. It was finally too much, despite the crew at the EFF being really helpful when we called asking if they might help us navigate some of the more intimidating legal waters.

All this to say, I'm really impressed at the lengths the project has gone (and continues to go) to make Tor safer, more accessible, and easier to use for nontechnical folks. I just downloaded and installed this, and it worked, and worked well. A far cry from the earlier days. Cheers to Tor and the people working on it, running exit nodes, bridge nodes, and offering legal support to those that need it.

csandreasen 2 days ago 6 replies      
I'm sure most of HN knows this already, but I've run in to enough people that used Tor but weren't aware of these that I'll post anyway. Some things to keep in mind if you're going to use Tor:

- The exit nodes can see all traffic being routed through them[1]. Be wary of using Tor for regular web surfing - the exit node can not only monitor any unencrypted traffic, but can also inject browser exploits, attempt to strip SSL[2], etc.

- HTTPS Everywhere is only enabled for sites that the EFF has whitelisted[3]. Even if a site supports SSL, don't expect HTTPS Everywhere to automatically send you to the encrypted version - always doublecheck.

- NoScript is not enabled by default in the Tor Browser Bundle[4]. Don't expect it to protect you from malicious Javascript exploits out of the box.

If you absolutely must use Tor for something, the safest way to do so is to connect to Tor, make whatever connections you need to make (and only those connections), then immediately get off.

[1] https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq#CanExitNodesEavesdrop

[2] http://www.thoughtcrime.org/software/sslstrip/ it's long, but the video is worth watching)

[3] https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere/faq#automatic-https

[4] https://www.torproject.org/docs/faq#TBBJavaScriptEnabled

duckingtest 2 days ago 4 replies      
Tor Browser is an abomination. I don't know of any other software with lower ratio of real security to expected security (by the average user). See the Freedom Hosting story [0] for an example why. This time it was about pedophiles, but this danger holds for everyone, from users of silkroad clones to opposition in totalitarian countries.

Tor Browser is making tor more accessible to average computer user in the same way selling minefields cheaply makes real estate more accessible to average human.

The only reasonable way of using tor for even remotely illegal purposes is by using whonix, or roughly equivalent schemes (eg. a tor-only router + tails).

[0] http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/08/05/freedom-hosting-a...

mrinterweb 2 days ago 10 replies      
This may be stupid, but I am slightly concerned about visiting anything related to Tor or security because of my fearful suspicion that the NSA will flag me for closer observation. That said, me frequenting a site called "Hacker" News probably sets off some red flags somewhere anyway.
netheril96 2 days ago 1 reply      
Maybe there are not many Chinese here on ycombinator, but Tor is mainly used by us to bypass the Great Firewall. And I do not mean to read articles or profess opinions that are antithetical to Chinese government, but simply to access many useful resources. Many tech blogs are blocked, for example, because they are hosted on blogspot.com

For me, at least, I don't really care about security, but usability and stability.

guipsp 1 day ago 0 replies      
edwinyzh 1 day ago 1 reply      
I'm not sure if I was doing anything, but it failed to connect to the Tor network (both direct and bridged mode) in my country - China...
WhitneyLand 2 days ago 0 replies      
Really nice to hear about out-of-the-box uncensored web browsing in China. It's probably only temporary in the ongoing cat and mouse game, but still good to have the win.
caio1982 2 days ago 1 reply      
Can someone running an exit node in Brazil comment on how difficult it is (if it is at all) to do so given crazy local cable companies and the country's legal system? Any troubles so far? Worth the risk?
geekam 2 days ago 3 replies      
Question: What are the benefits one gets to run a Tor exit or relay node? Is it plain humanitarian deed or is there anything for profit as well, even a minor one.
arj 2 days ago 1 reply      
The ability to update easily is a very nice addition
Quora Keeps the World's Knowledge for Itself
302 points by luu  3 days ago   123 comments top 34
nilkn 3 days ago 2 replies      
Quora is what would happen if George Lucas tried to design a Q&A site. Brilliant in many ways, but it has all the signs of one single guy at the top refusing advice from people for years about a few core issues and consequently holding the entire enterprise back.
GuiA 3 days ago 2 replies      
> Quora is not a private communications network. When users contribute to Quora, they're participating in Quora's mission: to "share and grow the world's knowledge".

Well, in many ways Quora (just like any other web platform) IS a private communications network.

And their mission is certainly not to "share and grow the world's knowledge". As with any company, their mission is first and foremost to make their investors happy, mostly by striving to make them richer every day than they were the day before. The dreamy tagline is just a way to make the pill more appealing to swallow for the users.

(remember Google's "Don't be evil"?)

I also despise Quora, and used to think it was terrible that huge swaths of human knowledge would be lost a few years from now when they inevitably get acquired/go bankrupt/etc.

But I'm not losing sleep over it anymore: they will be a mere blip in the history of human knowledge, and while some valuable chunks of knowledge will be lost, we can't do much about it.

I do wish the Wikimedia foundation set up an open Quora alternative. Wikipedia is about objective knowledge - it seems like there would be a place for a counterpart project about subjective knowledge. Properly moderated, it could be really, really interesting.

ddingus 3 days ago 1 reply      
I currently use Quora. It's closed nature has some disadvantages, though writers clearly can choose to publish openly. Many of those can be mitigated.

Everything is logged. Changes, edits, whatever are all presented to all users, who can see what happened and who did it over time. I think that's a nice feature.

One thing Quora has going for it is the Be Nice, Be Respectful Policy.

In terms of technical knowledge, the site varies. In terms of advice, or something one might call wisdom, it ranges from good to really great. There are some garbage answers mixed in there, but it's not hard to see and have a dialog about the good stuff.

Notably, Quora is a place where people can share themselves and their experiences unabashedly. Women have had some trouble there, as have some other regular targets of discrimination, stalking, etc... Quora has dealt with those quickly and is very, very interested in people not having any worries about discussions related to minority, gay, women, trans, and other sensitive topics.

Some of those discussions, advice, information are very high quality, frank, real, and I've personally contributed to some of that dialog in ways that did some material good for people really struggling, or fearful, unaware of their options, or possible outcomes.

While not perfect, the actions so far have produced some notable results. I am eager to see how Quora plays out, because having that kind of dialog and the tools given to users to manage conflicts and provide themselves and others "outs" to what would otherwise be messy, troll ridden discussion is something many people would value, and it's something missing from an awful lot of discussion online.

Some of us do share technical information. A lot of us share insight and experience or perspective that can be coupled with technical information. This has value too, and it's a little different from the more structured and highly technical Stack Exchange, and from the more noisy, often difficult to pick through general message board or forum dialog. This niche is also something I'm watching with interest.

There are some nice things too. One is non-English speakers coming to add questions or participate in answers or comments. People can help by making edits, or in some cases, by translating for them. I've done a few of those. Quora has a few students learning English on the site, and they ask often intriguing, challenging and notable questions about the language and use. Over time, that could be a great resource.

I think "sharing knowledge" is somewhat misunderstood. In a general sense, who we are, what our experiences have been, etc... are knowledge as much as math, facts, technical data is. The overall norms for discussion at Quora allow for very frank, real dialog. This can be worth a lot.

Go and search on how to give an awesome BJ, for example. A gay man answered that with such clarity and perfection, it's kind of amazing really. Or search on women in tech. Ladies there are posting up a lot of real experiences and advice that might be hard to come by and interact around elsewhere.

I could give a lot of other examples.

So far, I like Quora. I give it some time, and so far, I've gotten some good value in return. Some time is going to be required to see the more subtle aspects of Quora play out and then we might better understand where the value is.

pptr1 3 days ago 12 replies      
Honest question does anyone still use Quora? It seems more about being an ego contest than actually answering questions. They are definitely not the "library of Alexandria"... they far far from that.
ericdykstra 3 days ago 2 replies      
The way I understand it, part of the core value prop of Quora is that writers own their own content distribution. If you want to post an answer on Quora, and re-post it on your own blog, that's fantastic. If you want to post on Quora and mark it _not for reproduction_, that's totally your choice. If you think of it this way, it makes sense that Quora is not letting their content get automatically distributed, since once it goes to Archive.org, it's no longer under the users' control to revoke access to the answer at any time. Not only do they not claim to own your content, they don't even let it propagate without express permission from you, the author.

Taking a stance like this just gains trust from authors. If you want your writing to get mass distribution, it's up to you to distribute it. If you want it to be archived, publish it in multiple places.

I don't necessarily agree with it, and I've pretty much stopped writing on Quora for a number of reasons, but I see where they're coming from. It might be the best way for them to get the trust of some pretty high-status figures to post honest answers on their platform.

MarcBodnick 3 days ago 7 replies      
The reason we opt of the wayback machine is because this decision lets writers change their mind whether to have an answer published, or change their mind whether to use their name in authoring an answer (i.e., vs. making it anonymous).

People share a lot of sensitive material on Quora - controversial political views, workplace gossip and compensation, and negative opinions held of companies. Over many years, as they change jobs or change their views, it is important that they can delete or anonymize their previously-written answers.

I know from first-hand experience that Quora writers sometimes decide to go anonymous after they've shared something sensitive. I do this myself from time to time, and I appreciate the option to make that change; this option gives me more comfort in sharing what I know about sensitive topics.

ConfuciusSay 3 days ago 0 replies      
"They block archive.org spiders" is like reason 329 on the list of reasons why Quora is a shit website.
bdcravens 3 days ago 0 replies      
My experience with Quora is that it's mostly "pitch spam". Ask any question, like, "What's the best Ruby on Rails continuous integration solution?", and rather than get the wisdom of the masses, you'll get founders of CI solutions expounding. (To be clear, I'm more or less cool with content marketing, but Quora's value prop doesn't match up with reality often
swyman 3 days ago 0 replies      
Maybe "there must be an everlasting, immutable record of everything anyone has ever written or shared on the Internet, regardless of when it was written, the state of mind of the author, or how that author's (or society's) views have evolved over time" is not a nuanced enough point of view.
Eliezer 3 days ago 1 reply      
Speaking as someone whose writings as a teenagers are often dragged up by Internet trolls with no disclaimer about when they were written, I find myself extremely, extremely sympathetic to Quora here.
spindritf 3 days ago 2 replies      
So, Quora's rationale for blocking the Internet Archive is that Quora can't go back and automatically rewrite history whenever one of its users wants to.

It's the same rationale that EU courts used to make Google remove search results on user's request. Many people think like that apparently. It had defenders even here.

timClicks 3 days ago 1 reply      
This article argues (quite persuasively IMO) that Quora should be allowing the Internet Archive to index the site. It explores the validity argument that Quora makes on its robots.txt, that indexing would prevent question respondents to later turn their answers to anonymous answers.

I agree with the author that there is a real risk of this massive cultural trove of information to be completely dis-established on the basis of a management decision or financial collapse.

A possible response from Quora qould be to offer dumps to various archives, e.g. Library of Congress. This should allow them to maintain their commercial interests.

choppaface 3 days ago 0 replies      
A few years ago when Google was offering $1m+ stock to counter employees going to Facebook, some people leaked names on Quora but then promptly deleted it. This event is likely one that influenced Quora's interests in this matter.

Another factor that likely influenced this decision is that Quora has slowly made some content available to logged-out/anon users. Some sensitive answers written before this product change (e.g. answers on sensitive health issues) were likely written without consideration for these product changes and Quora wanted to ensure user trust could be retained.

cportela 3 days ago 0 replies      
I'm not a huge fan, but I do like the content they email me sometimes.

I'm not sure what I'm missing, but I've seen tons of anti-quora stuff on Hacker News in the past month or so. There was this, another article about VCs who think quora is dumb, and some other posts that basically think the same thing as linked.

Are they arrogant or assholes in person? There are tons of companies who do nothing and have no value and are loved, while they have built something of value to users, or at least I've found great answers to things that I had questions on.

qq66 3 days ago 1 reply      
The thing that initially attracted me to Quora (to the point of being one of their power writers in 2012) is that it's a way to publish things online that feel evergreen, without having to worry about maintaining or marketing a personal blog. My engagement with the site has declined a lot, but I still can see that people are reading the stuff I wrote several years ago, which doesn't happen with forums like this one, or with an untended blog.
unicornporn 2 days ago 0 replies      
Just a note... Don't go to Stockholm to see that fancy "wall of knowledge". That image description is so deceiving. As a Stockholmer I instinctively thought to myself: WTF. Turns out it's a CG concept.
aikah 3 days ago 2 replies      
Funny how when I look for a technical answer to a problem on Google Quora never shows up ? while i get dozens of answers from SO.

Quora could have been so much more than it is, it doesnt look very successfull to me,because of stupid choices.

nedwin 3 days ago 0 replies      
How has Quora changed since they went into YCombinator recently?
BigChiefSmokem 3 days ago 2 replies      
Why use Quora when you have StackExchange?

Quora died the day they put the pay wall up. Also you can't post anonymously. It's fail after fail with me, it's unfortunate because I enjoyed the beta version of the site way back when.

zallarak 3 days ago 0 replies      
I can somewhat empathize with the author of this article because in the end, transparency and willingness to share knowledge are historically good things to do.

However, I also respect Quora's commitment to user privacy and requests to delete content. Content creators power Quora's success, and to me it signals appreciation on Quora's part to watch out for them.

I have gotten a significant amount of utility from Quora for free in the form of it answering questions I had and thought provoking content. Its a bit hyperbolic to say Quora keeps the world's knowledge for itself.

jusben1369 3 days ago 0 replies      
"and it's definitely not how the Internet works" - how do you define how the internet works? Quora's been completely transparent and consistent about this approach from day 1. You don't have to like it. You don't have to participate. this feels like someone throwing a tantrum because Quora isn't behaving in the way you want them to. I kind of figure that "the way the Internet works" is it allows for a whole host of different sites, services and commercialization strategies and we engage with platforms and services freely based on the value vs cost analysis.
ryandrake 3 days ago 0 replies      
I think we're going to find (eventually, as people get bitten) is that [forever searchability] + [real name policy] + [non-deletable content] will = abundant caution to the point of self-censorship, reducing the overall quality of user-generated discussions.

I know I self-censor a lot on any platform that requires a real name (or on those like HN where I choose to use mine). Who knows what (today uncontroversial) opinions will be considered taboo, criminally weird, or treasonous in 40 years time? I need to make sure I can run for president one day, you know.

tyang 1 day ago 1 reply      
I write a lot on Quora and respectfully disagree with OP here.

I like the fact that I can delete my questions or answers from time to time.

It's my content. Not the Internet's.

If I change my mind about something I wrote, I want to be able to edit it and delete it.

Some of my best answers are ones I edited many times over time. I use Quora and its readers to help me improve and correct my answers. The first draft is often not that great. Quora reduces the risk for me to submit my answer and post it.

I understand there are other sites where my content would be more public and permanent and I share on there too. But I often write and re-write on Quora before sharing my content to other sites.

swang 3 days ago 0 replies      
IA's spider respects META tags in the HTML right? Quora should prevent archiving of a page using the tags until maybe a couple months after the last person has responded, then allow the page to be archived by removing any META tags related to archiving.

AFAIK, noarchive still allows indexing of the page, which means the robot should realize the page is there and archive it during its next run.

dkarapetyan 3 days ago 0 replies      
I highly recommend Scott Hanselman's essay on the finiteness of the number of keystrokes you have in a lifetime: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/DoTheyDeserveTheGiftOfYourKeys.... Draw your own conclusions about putting knowledge inside walled gardens.
jordanpg 3 days ago 1 reply      
"Quora is a free service built on venture capital that will need to monetize its users over the next couple years, and wouldn't you know, they really want you visit quora.com, and they really want you to create an account."

What are some ideas about what Quora's long-term business model might end up being? This is the context needed to judge this article.

bvaldivielso 3 days ago 0 replies      
What I see is that quora cares about its users more that it cares about "how the internet works".

Is that that awful?

drivingmenuts 2 days ago 0 replies      
> Quora is not a private communications network.

Issues of marketing aside, if it has a login and a password, it is a private network.

If I publish on the open web, then pretty much what I say is public information. If I publish on a private network, I am turning that information over to them to do as they will, unless the ToS says I retain control.

I don't feel particularly bad that the Internet Archive is unable to catalog things that are behind closed doors, regardless of the reasoning behind closing the door.

And given the propensity for people to (rightly or wrongly) attack others by dredging up things long in the past, yet posted on the net, I'm not sure I disagree with Quora.

rpm33 2 days ago 0 replies      
I was an early adopter of Quora and consume a lot of content on it. I think it is a great place to get curated answers for questions I think are interesting. I have taken a lot of care in cutting out the noise in Quora and that has helped me a lot in getting some high quality content in my inbox.
quadrangle 2 days ago 0 replies      
Nobody should ever contribute content to proprietary resources. The community should own the content the community generates. Wikimedia stuff and Stack Exchange stuff is all CC-BY-SA licensed. We should contribute to those things! Screw Quora!!
muyuu 3 days ago 1 reply      
A few times I've wanted to chime in with expert answers in my field and they didn't let me without giving my real name and personal data. So I didn't.
SeanDav 3 days ago 0 replies      
I browse Quora occasionally - it is a great resource for trivial information and some entertaining content, but for serious work it is very far from being at the top of my list of destinations.
yalogin 2 days ago 0 replies      
To me quora has always been and will be the company that n Ed not exist. There might be some very niche need it fills but does not warrant the funding and hype. It could of cours b justifiable as a hobby project.
no_future 3 days ago 0 replies      
I don't understand why Quora requires signup to JUST VIEW the questions and answers? How do people doing nothing but viewing it affect the site in any way, aside from getting it more pageviews, which is generally a good thing? I understand having an account to contribute, but just to view?
Ask HN: How do you use Docker in production?
292 points by valevk  1 day ago   145 comments top 56
seppalala 1 day ago 4 replies      
Here's the problems we're solving with Docker:

* Sanity in our environments. We know exactly what goes into each and every environment, which are specialized based on the one-app-per-container principle. No more asking "why does software X build/execute on machine A and not machines B-C?"

* Declarative deployments. Using Docker, Core OS, and fleet[1], this is the closest solution I've found to the dream of specifying what I want running across a cluster of machines, rather than procedurally specifying the steps to deploy something (e.g. Chef, Ansible, and the lot). There's been other attempts for declarative deployments (Pallet comes to mind), but I think Docker and Fleet provide even better composability. This is my favorite gain.

* Managing Cabal dependency hell. Most of our application development is in Haskell, and we've found we prefer specifying a Docker image than working with Cabal sandboxes. This is equally a gain on other programming platforms. You can replace virtualenv for Python and rvm for Ruby with Docker containers.

* Bridging a gap with less-technical coworkers. We work with some statisticians. Smart folks, but getting them to install and configure ODBC & FreeTDS properly was a nightmare. Training them in an hour on Docker and boot2docker has saved so much frustration. Not only are they able to run software that the devs provide, but they can contribute and be (mostly) guaranteed that it'll work on our side, too.

I was skeptical about Docker for a long time, but after working with it for the greater part of the year, I've been greatly satisfied. It's not a solution to everythingI'm careful to avoid hammer syndromebut I think it's a huge step forwards for development and operations.

[1]: https://coreos.com/using-coreos/clustering/

Addendum: Yes, some of these gains can be equally solved with VMs, but I can run through /dozens/ of iterations of building Docker images by the time you've spun up one VM.

zrail 1 day ago 2 replies      
I used Docker to solve a somewhat unconventional problem for a client last week. They have a Rails application that needs to be deployed in two vastly different situations:

* a Windows server, disconnected from the internet

* about 10 laptops, intermittently connected to the internet

Docker let us build the application once and deploy it in both scenarios with much less pain than the current situation, which basically consists of script to git-pull and over-the-phone instructions when dependencies like ruby or imagemagick need to be upgraded.

We run VirtualBox with a stock Ubuntu 14.04 image with docker installed from the docker-hosted deb repo. We use the Phusion passenger Ruby image[1], which bundles almost every dependency we needed along with a useful init system so we can run things like cron inside a single container along with the application. This makes container management trivial to do with simple scripts launched by non-technical end users.

[1]: https://github.com/phusion/passenger-docker

wvanbergen 1 day ago 3 replies      
At Shopify, we have moved to Docker for deploying our main product. Primary advantages for us are faster deploys, because we can do part of the old deploy process as part of the container build. Secondly: easier scalability, because we can add additional containers to have more app servers or job workers. More info at http://www.shopify.com/technology/15563928-building-an-inter...
aaron42net 1 day ago 1 reply      
We're moving all of production in EC2 from an old CentOS 5 image managed by capistrano to CoreOS, with fleet deploying images built by the docker.io build service and private repo. I love it.

Every week, we rebuild our base image starting with the latest debian:stable image, apply updates, and then our apps are built off of the latest base image. So distro security updates are automatically included with our next deploy.

We had been deploying multiple apps to the same EC2 instances. Having each app's dependencies be separate from other apps has made upgrading them easier already.

This also means all containers are ephemeral and are guaranteed to be exactly the same, which is a pretty big change from our use of capistrano in practice. I'm hoping this saves us a lot of debugging hassle.

Instead of using ELBs internally, I'm using registrator to register the dynamic ports of all of my running services across the cluster in etcd, with confd creating a new template for NginX and updating it within 5 seconds if a service comes up or drops out. Apps only need to talk to their local NginX (running everywhere) to find a load-balanced pool of whichever service they are looking for. NginX is better than ELB at logging and retrying failed requests, to provide a better user-experience during things like deploys.

Some of these things could be solved by spinning up more EC2 instances. However that usually takes minutes, where docker containers take seconds, which changes the experience dramatically.

And I'm actually reducing my spend by being able to consolidate more. I can say things like "I want one instance of this unit running somewhere in the cluster" rather than having a standalone EC2 instance for it.

mvip 1 day ago 1 reply      
We've been using Docker for YippieMove (www.yippiemove.com) for a few months now, and it works great.

Getting your hand around the Docker philosophy is the biggest hurdle IMHO, but once you're there it is a delight to work with. The tl;dr is to not think of Docker as VMs, but rather fancy `chroots`.

In any case, to answer your question, for us it significantly decreased deployment time and complexity. We used to run our VMs and provision them with Puppet (it's a Django/Python app), however it took a fair amount of time to provision a new box. More so, there were frequently issues with dependencies (such as `pip install` failing).

With Docker, we can more or less just issue a `docker pull my/image` and be up and running (plus some basic provisioning of course that we use Ansible for).

suprjami 1 day ago 2 replies      
Good question.

I have learnt enough about Docker to know it's not something which solves any problem I have, but finding out concrete facts about what others are actually doing with it was one of the hardest parts of the learning process.

The official Use Cases page is so heavily laden with meaningless buzzwords and so thin on actual detail that I still feel dirty just from reading it. https://docker.com/resources/usecases/

HorizonXP 1 day ago 3 replies      
Docker, CoreOS, fleet, and etcd have completely changed how I build projects. It's made me much more productive.

I'm working on Strata, which is a building management & commissioning system for property owners of high-rise smart buildings. It's currently deployed in a single building in downtown Toronto, and it's pulling in data from thousands of devices, and presenting it in real-time via an API and a dashboard.

So in this building, I have a massive server. 2 CPUs, 10 cores each, 128GB of RAM, the works. It came with VMWare ESXi.

I have 10 instances of CoreOS running, each identical, but with multiple NICs provisioned for each so that they can communicate with the building subsystems.

I built every "app" in its own Docker container. That means PostgreSQL, Redis, RabbitMQ, my Django app, my websocket server, even Nginx, all run in their own containers. They advertise themselves into etcd, and any dependencies are pulled from etcd. That means that the Django app gets the addresses for the PostgreSQL and Redis servers from etcd, and connects that way. If these values change, each container restarts itself as needed.

I also have a number of workers to crawl the network and pull in data. Deployment is just a matter of running 'fleetctl start overlord@{1..9}.service', and it's deployed across every machine in my cluster.

With this setup, adding machines, or adding containers is straightforward and flexible.

Furthermore, for development, I run the same Docker containers locally via Vagrant, building and pushing as needed. And when I applied for YC, I spun up 3 CoreOS instances on DigitalOcean and ran the fleet files there.

As I said, I've been able to streamline development and make it super agile with Docker & CoreOS. Oh, and I'm the only one working on this. I figure if I can do it on my own, imagine what a team of engineers can do.

Very powerful stuff.

piva00 1 day ago 1 reply      
We're using Docker to solve these kinds of problems:

- Running Jenkins slaves for some acceptance/integration tests that runs in the browser, previously we had to configure multiple chromedrivers to spin up on different ports or be stuck running 1 test per machine. Now we have 6 machines (down from 9) which runs 6 slaves each, so we can parallelize our tests as 36 tests run concurrently. That has significantly improved our deployment time (as these tests are necessary to do a deployment) while reducing costs.

- Migrating our infrastructure (around 70 instances) to AWS VPC, we had our machines running on EC2-Classic. While I had previously done some work automating most applications using Chef we have really managed to fully automate our machines with Docker, it was way easier than solving cookbook dependency and customization issues. We have a couple dozen Dockerfiles that fully explain how our systems run and what are the dependencies for each application.

And that is only in the last month and a half that I began using Docker, I was pretty skeptical before as it was touted almost as a silver bullet. And it comes close to that in many scenarios.

nstart 1 day ago 0 replies      
I'm solving the most obvious issues that docker was meant to solve. I'm currently working alone in a company that's starting up and yesterday I needed to spin up a server and create a rest api service to integrate with a telco's system. They asked me how long it would take me to do that and I said an hour. I just spun up a digital ocean instance, cloned my api git project, built from the docker file (it's incredibly fast on ssd), and in about 30 minutes I was running a nginx->uwsgi->flask with python3.4, bcrypt, and a few other packages.

Now all this can be done with a simple bash script too but then that affects my main server environment. In this case when I want to stop the service or change something I simply edit my docker image.

My dev environment is a windows laptop and I use vagrant to spin up a server with nginx configured and docker installed. And I use docker to get my environment running for working on my apps. It's pretty awesome.

Vagrant and docker are one of the best things that has happened for me as a developer.

k_bx 1 day ago 3 replies      
We use docker for:

- running graphite (can't say it was less pain launching it, since Dockerfile was outdated a bit, and I also had to additionally figure out persistency issues, but overall I'm happy it's all virtualized and not living on server itself)

- building our haskell projects for specific feature (your run a container per feature, this way you omit pain switching between features when you need to build one)

- running tests (per each feature we start container with whole infrastructure inside (all databases, projects etc.))

- running staging, also container per feature

Very useful stuff, comparing to alternatives, I should say. And quite easy to work with after you play a bit with docker's api.

amm 1 day ago 0 replies      
We use docker extensively to ship a large and complex legacy platform that was designed to run as a hosted service, but was transformed into an on-premise product.

The system is composed of several components originally designed to run on separate VMs for security reasons. Luckily, we were able to translate VM <-> docker container, so now each component has its own Dockerfile + shell script for booting up and providing runtime configuration.

Docker helps us solve several problems:

* A canonical build. It provides a way to configure the build system, fetch all dependencies and execute a reproducible build on different machines/environments. It's also used as documentation when engineers have no clue, where settings/parameters come from.

* A super fast build pipeline and release repository. We use maven -> nexus, docker -> docker-registry, vagrant -> local export for a completely automated way to bootstrap an ovf-file that can be deployed at customer site. Releases for the old platform were not automated and took the previous teams weeks (!) on a single platform.

* A way to restrict resources. Given some security constraints from the product, lxc + docker helps us restrict memory and networking.

* Shipping updates. We deliver automated updates through a hosted docker registry for customers who open up the appliance to the internet. Previous teams were not able deliver updates in time for a single hosted platform. We can now ship new releases and have them deployed at several customers data-centers in a matter of hours.

We have been using docker in production for almost a year now and despite headaches in the beginning it's been absolutely worth it.

misterbishop 1 day ago 0 replies      
Docker revolutionized our server deployment. My company has 50 nodejs services deployed on VPS providers around the world. It allows us to completely automate the deployment of these servers regardless of the provider's APIs. When we roll out updates, we never patch a running box, we just bring the new container up and remove the old one. Super easy, super reliable, and best of all, totally scriptable.

We also have a pretty sophisticated testing environment using Docker which creates a simulation of our server in on any developer's laptop. It's really remarkable actually.

asher_ 1 day ago 0 replies      
We use it for everything.

We use the Google Compute Engine container optimised VMs, which make deployment a breeze. Most of our docker containers are static, apart from our application containers (Node.js) that are automatically built from github commits. Declaring the processes that should run on a node via a manifest makes things really easy; servers hold no state, so they can be replaced fresh with every new deployment and it's impossible to end up with manual configuration, which means that there is never a risk of losing some critical server and not being able to replicate the environment.

BrianEatWorld 1 day ago 0 replies      
We have a stateless worker process that previously required a separate EC2 instance for each worker. Even using small instances, this meant a pretty cumbersome fleet in AWS with lags for spin up and excess costs due to workers that were brought online and finished their jobs well before the use hour was complete.

Using Docker, we can have several of these workers on a single box with near instantaneous spin up. This means that we are able to use fewer, larger instances instead of several small ones. In turn, this makes the fleet easier to manage, quicker to scale and less costly because we aren't over paying for large portions of AWS hours that go under utilized.

I am not entirely sure that Docker was a necessity in building this as I sort of inherited the technology. I originally was pushing for a switch to pure LXC, which would have fit the build system that was in place better. However, given the fervour over Docker there is a lot of information out on the web and so changing the build and deployment systems has been relatively easy and quick. I bring this up because I think some tasks are better suited to pure LXC, but people seem to be defaulting to Docker due to its popularity.

reshambabble 1 day ago 0 replies      
We actually started using Docker a few months ago and it really sped up our deployment process. It's not only incredibly faster than using virtual machines for testing; it allows you to host multiple apps on one server and to have all versions of your app ready to download and run. More info at http://www.syncano.com/reasons-use-docker/
hippiefahrzeug 1 day ago 2 replies      
One thing I'd like to point out are OS upgrades, security patches or generally package updates. With docker I just rebuild a new image using the latest ubuntu image (they are updated very frequently), deploy the app, test and then push the new image to production. Upgrading the host OS also is much less of a problem because far fewer packages are installed (i.e. it's just docker and the base install).
jonplimetech 1 day ago 1 reply      
At Lime Technology, we have integrated docker into our NAS offering along with virtual machines (KVM and Xen). Docker provides a way to eliminate the "installation" part of software and skip straight to running proven and tested images in any Docker environment. With Containers, our users can choose from a library of over 14,0000 Linux-based apps with ease. Docker just makes life easier.
wyc 1 day ago 1 reply      
We use Docker to deploy on Aptible, and this makes our projects entirely self-contained. With a Dockerfile in the project directory, the entire build and runtime environment is now explicitly declared.

With "git push aptible", we push the code to the production server, rebuild the project, and run it in one command.

couchand 1 day ago 0 replies      
We're using Docker for a few internal projects at Stack Exchange. I've found it to be simple and easy, and it just works.

We have a diverse development team but a relatively limited production stack - many of our devs are on Macs (I'm on Ubuntu), but our servers are all Windows. Docker makes it painless to develop and test locally in exactly the same environment as production in spite of this platform discrepancy. It makes it a breeze to deploy a Node.js app to a Windows server without ever actually dealing with the pain of Node.js on Windows.

Also, it makes the build process more transparent. Our build server is Team City, which keeps various parts of the configuration in many different hidden corners of a web interface. By checking our Dockerfile into version control much of this configuration can be managed by devs well ahead of deployment, and it's all right there in the same place as the application code.

sirwolfgang 1 day ago 0 replies      
Since we are still waiting for CoreOS + (flynn.io || deis.io) to mature. I modified our existing VMWare VM based approached to setup ubuntu boxes with Docker install. Where I then use fig to manage an application cluster, and supervisor to watch fig.

When its time to update a box, jenkins sshs in calls docker pull to get the latest, then restarts via supervisor. Any one off docker run commands require us to ssh in, but fig provides all the env settings so that I don't have to worry about remembering them. The downtime between upgrades is normally a second or less.

The biggest thing I ran into is that each jenkins builds server can only build and test one container at a time. After each one, we delete all images. The issue is that if you have an image it wont check for a new image. This applies to all underlaying images. We cut the bandwidth by having our own docker registry that acts as our main image source and storage.

preillyme 1 day ago 3 replies      
Docker explicitly violates the principles of the Twelve-Factor App. Docker apps dont rely on any external environment. In fact, Docker demands that you store all config values, dependencies, everything inside of the container itself. Apps communicate with the rest of the world via ports and via Docker itself. The trade-off is that apps become a little bit bulkier (though not significantly), but the benefit is apps become maximally portable.

In essence, Docker makes almost no assumptions about the apps next home. Docker apps care about where they are even less than twelve-factor apps. They can be passed to and fro across serversand, more importantly, across virtualization platformsand everything needed to run them (besides the OS) comes along for the ride.

rplnt 1 day ago 0 replies      
Satoshilabs use Docker to build firmware for Trezor, allowing people to do the same and verify binaries.


rckclmbr 1 day ago 0 replies      
We're been using Docker and coreos+fleet for our production environment at GaiaGPS for a few months now, and have been very impressed. We use quay.io for building our repositories, triggered by a github commit.

I agree with what others have said, and for us, the biggest benefit we see is keeping our production environment up to date, and stable. We're a small shop, and want to waste as little time as possible maintaining our production environment. We were able to go from 1 host (that occasionally went down -- and downtime for every deploy) to a 3-node coreos cluster fairly easily. We can also scale up, or even recreate the cluster, very easily.

grownseed 1 day ago 2 replies      
Not technically in production yet, but I use Docker for the following scenarios:

- Build agents for TeamCity, this was one of the first scenarios and it's been amazingly helpful so far.

- Building third-party binaries in a reproducible environment

- Running bioinformatics pipelines in consistent environments (using the above tools)

- Circumventing the painfully inept IT department to give people in my group easy access to various tools

I've also been contemplating building a Docker-based HPC cluster for a while now, though unfortunately I'm currently lacking support to make that happen.

germandz 1 day ago 0 replies      
We are running our app[1] in instances of Google Compute Engine. We installed Docker in those instances.

Our app is a bunch of microservices, some Rails Apps each one running with Puma as webserver, HAProxy, some other Rack app (for Websockets). We also use RabbitMQ and Redis.

All the components are running in their own containers (we have dozens of containers running to support this app).

We choose this path because in case of failures, just 1 service would be down meanwhile the whole system is nearly fully functional. Re-launching a container is very straightforward and is done quickly.

[1]: https://dockerize.it

neurotech1 1 day ago 0 replies      
I've used Docker in semi-production environments.

Configuration abd dependency management is much improved, and more efficient than VMs.

YAML configuration is easy to hand edit.

Docker doesn't have to rebuild an entire image for a minor application code or conf change. Incremental cache speeds up the build process.

Scaleout with "worker" instances is quite easy to manage.

For full production Elastic Beanstalk is worth a look. I prefer to host on DigitalOcean VMs for dev staging.

Docker has a great local community in San Francisco.

KayEss 1 day ago 1 reply      
One of the main things I'm using it for are reproducible development environments for a rather complex project comprising nearly ten web services.

We have a script that builds a few different docker images that the devs can then pull down and get using straight away. This is also done through a dev repo that they clone that provides scripts to perform dev tasks across all services (set up databases, run test servers, pull code, run pip etc.).

It used to take a day to set up a new dev enviroment, now it takes around 30 mins and can be done with almost no input from the user and boils down to: install docker, fetch databases restores, clone the dev repo, run the dev wrapper script

benjamta 1 day ago 0 replies      
We're using docker in part to get round the old 'works on my machine' problem: http://www.rainbird.ai/2014/08/works-machine/
devashish86 1 day ago 0 replies      
At Shippable(shippable.com) we've been using docker for over an year now for the following use cases:

1. deploying all our internal components like db, message queue, middleware and frontend using containers and using a custom service discovery manager. The containerization has helped us easily deploy components separately, quickly set up dev environments, test production bugs more realistically and obviously, scale up very quickly.

2. running all the builds in custom user containers. This helps us ensure security and data isolation.

We did run into a bunch of issues till docker was "production-ready" but the use case was strong enough for us to go ahead with it

mgorsuch 1 day ago 0 replies      
I've used docker for process isolation at two companies now. In both cases, we were executing things on the server based on customer input values, and desired the isolation to help ensure safety.

In the first company, these were one-off import jobs that would import customer information from a URL they provided.

In the other, these are long-running daemons for a multi-tenant service, and I need to reduce the risk that one customer could exploit the system and disrupt the other customers or gain access to their data.

I have some other experiments in play right now in which I am packaging up various services as docker containers, but this is currently non-production.

sandGorgon 1 day ago 0 replies      
We are a small startup and host on Softlayer (we are part of their startup program).

I would postulate this - if you are using AWS, you will not need a lot of what Docker provides. But if you are hosting your own servers, then Docker provides close-to-metal performance with stateless behavior.

For example, when Heartbleed or Shellshock or POODLE hit the ecosystem, it took us 1 hour to recreate all our servers and be compliant.

My biggest complaint and wishlist is for Docker to roll-in Fig inside itself. The flexibility to compose services/stacks is very useful and Fig claims to be too closely tied to Orchard.

jalev 1 day ago 0 replies      
Deployment. We have a legacy application that would take about a day of configuration to deploy properly. With Docker (and some microservices goodness) we've reduced the deploy down to an hour, and are continually improving it.
domrdy 1 day ago 0 replies      
We use docker at stylight for deploying our frontend app (wildfly). We use the docker hub for storing images. When we do a release we basically push to the hub, pull on all upstreams and restart the containers with the new image. We have a base application image (containing java, wildfly etc.) which basically never changes so builds and distribution are super fast. We really like the fact that the containers are isolated! We ran into an issue the other day where we wanted to dump the heap of the JVM to debug some memory leak issue, this should be easier with 1.3!
zimbatm 1 day ago 0 replies      
At Pusher we use Docker for CI.

I've developed a little command-line tool (https://github.com/zimbatm/cide) that can run the same environment on the developer machine and Jenkins. It also makes the Jenkins configuration much easier since build dependencies are all sandboxed in different docker boxes.The tool is mainly for legacy apps and is able to export artefacts back to Jenkins instead of publishing Docker images.

hendry 1 day ago 0 replies      
I recently 'Docker-ized' http://greptweet.com with https://github.com/kaihendry/greptweet/blob/master/Dockerfil...

The main thing I really like is that Dockerfile. So if Greptweet needs to move, it's a `docker build .` to setup everything on a CoreOS VPS.

Ashbt 1 day ago 0 replies      
I don't know if docker would be the right service for my use case, but considering the user experience on this thread I thought I'd ask...

I'm looking to deploy a python based analytics service which runs for about 12 hours per job, uploads the results to a separate server then shuts down. At any given time there could be up to 100 jobs running concurrently.

Is this 'dockable' ?

vasion 1 day ago 1 reply      
At UltimateFanLive we use docker on Elastic Beanstalk to speed up the scaling process. Our load goes from 0 to 60 in minutes, as we are connected with live sports data. Packages like numpy and lxml take way too long to install with yum and pip alone. So we pre-build images with the dependencies but we are still using the rest of the goodies on Elastic Beanstalk. Deploy times have plummeted and we keep t2 cpu credits.
diltonm 1 day ago 1 reply      
I'm considering Docker for a small side project I have where I want to deploy a Runnable Java Jar as a daemon. Getting Java paths right across different Linux distributions can be a hassle, hoping Docker will help me solve this. For that matter, getting a daemon (service) running correctly on different Linux'es is one more thorn I'd rather not have to deal with.
bensn 1 day ago 0 replies      
We use Docker to set up our testing environments with Jenkins and install the application in it. Every build will be installed in a Docker Container automatically. The Container is used for acceptance tests. The Docker Containers are set up automatically with a Dockerfile. Its an awesome tool for automatating and deployment and used to implement the concepts of "Continuous Delivery".
bennetthi 1 day ago 0 replies      
It seems like a bunch of people are using docker + CoreOS, is anyone using Docker with Marathon in production?
nickporter 1 day ago 0 replies      
Right now, SFTP as a service (https://github.com/42technologies/docker-sftp-server)

I also used it when our landing page was wordpress-based.

DoubleMalt 1 day ago 0 replies      
We use docker at https://cloudfleet.io to separate the application logic from the data and create a simple interface for additional apps.

As we deploy on low power devices the minimal overhead of docker is crucial for us.

qrush 1 day ago 0 replies      
Dokku is a great way to move off Heroku and onto something way more cost effective and useful: http://quaran.to/blog/2014/09/09/dynos-are-done/
zokier 1 day ago 1 reply      
Most people seem to be using Docker with distro-based images, ie. start with ubuntu and then add their own app on top etc. Is anyone using more application-oriented images, ie. start with empty image and add just your application and its dependencies?
billybofh 1 day ago 0 replies      
I've used to to make an Ubuntu packaged app available on CentOS machines. The compile-from-source was a bit of a headache (lots of dependencies which also had to be compiled from source) so being able to deploy like this saved a lot of hassle.
nodefortytwo 1 day ago 0 replies      
we use docker to run tests, honestly we could deploy the resulting images to our production infrastructure now quite happily however we haven't got round to it yet.
dantiberian 1 day ago 2 replies      
I'm really interested in using Docker but I'm having trouble understanding how to manage stateful applications, like databases.
CSDude 1 day ago 1 reply      
I use it to grade homeworks, no more open TCP sockets, message queues, open files, some naughties trying to delete my home.
timthelion 1 day ago 1 reply      
I'm running firefox in docker right now using subuser[1].

[1] http://subuser.org

minhajuddin 1 day ago 0 replies      
How do you make a database run on multiple containers and get redundancy with something like postgresql?
teacup50 1 day ago 2 replies      
I honestly find it really depressing to see all these folks taking code and applications that would otherwise be entirely portable, and rebuilding their entire deployment and development environment around a hard dependency on Linux.

If Docker becomes sufficiently popular, it's going to put HUGE nails in the coffin of portability and the vibrancy of the UNIX ecosystem.

gwulf 1 day ago 0 replies      
Using Docker for hands on workshops:


ing33k 1 day ago 0 replies      
Not yet .
houk 1 day ago 0 replies      
I'd be interesting in hearing about others production use case scenarios.
Building Web Apps with Go
299 points by linhmtran168  5 days ago   40 comments top 11
shadowsun7 5 days ago 4 replies      
I tried to post this review on gitbooks.io, but couldn't. So I guess I'll put this up here:

This is a great introduction to building web apps in Go. (I started roughly two months ago, but had this book been around, I'd have been brought up to speed a lot faster).

Here's why: the predominant approach to building web apps in Go is to build on top of standard interfaces (e.g. net/http), and to keep things as simple as possible. Heavy, prescriptive frameworks are frowned upon. This is a great approach, but probably strange to people (like me) who come from prescriptive frameworks like Rails or Django.

Jeremy's guide sticks to Go conventions, while respectfully suggesting lightweight libraries that complement this approach. The guide is never "YOU MUST USE THIS", instead it always introduces the bare-bones approach first, and then tells you "hey, there's a 3rd party library that gives you some useful shortcuts on top of those." And indeed, each of the recommended libraries are idiomatic and easy to understand.

My review is probably biased, though, because I now have some idea now of how to write web apps in Go. But I certainly wished this book had existed when I first started.

melling 5 days ago 3 replies      
I run a simple Go server behind Apache for my weekend project (http://www.thespanishsite.com). I started with this blog:


I also use MySql on Digital Ocean with a $10/month droplet. The few issues at first where that I started with a $5/month which didn't enough RAM so I'd run out of memory until I created swap:


Still need to make it a daemon, but I'm not finished. I have one big method to set up my pages. I could write a blog, github repo or create a summary page on my site, if there's any interest.

func runWeb() {

    serveSingle("/robots.txt", "./robots.txt")    http.Handle("/css/", http.StripPrefix("/css/", http.FileServer(http.Dir("./css/"))))    http.Handle("/resources/", http.StripPrefix("/resources/", http.FileServer(http.Dir("./resources/"))))http.Handle("/static",  http.FileServer(http.Dir("./static/")))    http.HandleFunc("/chinese", chineseHomeHandler)    http.HandleFunc("/french", frenchHomeHandler)    http.HandleFunc("/chinese/numbers", chineseNumbersHomeHandler)    // Many handlers deleted ...    http.HandleFunc("/", homeHandler)    // http.ListenAndServe("localhost:9999", nil)    port := GetPort()    fmt.Println("listening...", port)    err := http.ListenAndServe(port, nil)    if err != nil {        panic(err)    }


func serveSingle(pattern string, filename string) {

    http.HandleFunc(pattern, func(w http.ResponseWriter, r *http.Request) {    http.ServeFile(w, r, filename)    })}

codegangsta 5 days ago 0 replies      
Thanks for the feedback guys! The book is still a work in progress. It started as curriculum for the workshop I gave a couple days ago at DotGo. The plan is to continue making it awesome and to make the examples more complete.
humanfromearth 5 days ago 2 replies      
Aren't there a lot of required packages to build a webapp? I would recommend against using any of those at least in the beginning. Maybe gorilla/mux, but even that can be avoided.

Don't just add deps you will never use, it's going to make your life painful.

akbar501 5 days ago 1 reply      
It would be helpful for Go newbies if a 3rd column (description) was added to the table in the "Required Packages" section.
john2x 5 days ago 4 replies      
If there's one thing Go did right, it's the logo/mascot. (sorry for OT)
falcolas 5 days ago 1 reply      
The hard-coded dependencies on GitHub (not to mention they're dependencies to code owned by someone else) have always bothered me. It seems like it would create a real problem for compiling, auditing, or even just testing code in the long run; and this example relies on a ton of them.

I haven't kept up with the state of the art Go packaging; have these problems been addressed?

rabble 5 days ago 1 reply      
I don't mean to be a bit difficult here, but i wonder if the tutorial's author had anybody actually try it. I mean it seems like there's tons of missed steps, sections missing, assumed bits which aren't done. Each example i try tends to have other things done, uh, as exercises for the reader, which are required before the code samples even work.
preillyme 5 days ago 0 replies      
Is using gorilla/context really the only easy way to store an retrieve data that is specific to the current HTTP request? Seems like there should be a better way to map values and retrieve them later from a global mutex on a map of request objects, or something.
JoeAcchino 5 days ago 1 reply      
Is this guide specific for Go on Heroku or its concepts can be easily applied elsewhere?
krat0sprakhar 5 days ago 0 replies      
This looks awesome! Thanks a lot, Jeremy for doing this and sharing it with us!
       cached 19 October 2014 04:11:01 GMT