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Introducing Swift apple.com
1140 points by falava  5 days ago   704 comments top 135
Udo 5 days ago 9 replies      
As someone who always disliked Objective C, I think Swift looks very promising. I'll check it out right away :)

Software-wise, I feel these current WWDC announcements are the most exciting in years.

Looking at the Swift docs right now, I can see many interesting inspirations at work: there's some Lua/Go in there (multiple return values), some Ruby (closure passed as the last argument to a function can appear immediately after the parentheses), closure expressions, strong Unicode character support, a very very neat alternative to nullable types with "Optionals". Operators are functions, too.

It has the concept of explicitly capturing variables from the surrounding context inside closures, like PHP does, instead of keeping the entire context alive forever like Ruby or JS.

Hell there is even some shell scripting thinking in there with shorthand arguments that can be used as anonymous parameters in closures, like "sort(names, { $0 > $1 } )".

Inside objects, properties can be initialized lazily the first time they're accessed, or even updated entirely dynamically. Objects can swap themselves out for new versions of themselves under the caller's nose by using the mutating keyword.

There is the expected heavy-weight class/inheritance scheme which accommodates a lot of delegation, init options, bindings, and indirection (as is expected for a language that must among other things support Apple's convoluted UI API). But at least it's syntactically easier on the eyes now.

Automated Reference Counting is still alive, too - however, it's mostly under the hood now. Accordingly, there is a lot of stuff that deals with the finer points of weak and strong binding/counting.

Swift has a notion of protocols which as far as I can tell are interfaces or contracts that classes can promise to implement.

I think generally there are a few great patterns for method and object chaining, function and object composition in here.

The language has C#-style generics, and supports interesting type constraint expressions.

nlh 5 days ago 7 replies      
I'm not even an iOS developer but this is by far the most exciting thing I heard in the keynote.

As an amatuer/hobbyist programmer who's self-taught with Ruby, JavaScript, etc., the one thing that was keeping me from experimenting with iOS apps was Objective-C. I know I could tackle it, but it's been hard to take the plunge.

I don't know much about Swift yet, but from what I've seen it looks very exciting. So if Apple's goal was to get new devs into the iOS world, at least from 10k feet, it's working.

I'm excited!

wyuenho 5 days ago 4 replies      
Just glanced thru the Swift book in about 3 hours. Conclusion: all your programming language are belong to Swift, mostly stolen good ideas, some innovations, a few gripes.

I can say Swift takes inspiration and improves on at least these languages:




control structures

labeled statements AKA gotos



default arguments

class instance construction syntax

// comment

superclass, implementing protocol declaration syntax

semi-virtual class init, deinit


No parentheses around the condition part of control statements

Unicode identifiers

shorthand for signed and unsigned integer types U?Int(8|16|32|64)


in-out params


subscript access of class member values





param names as method names






super keyword

override method keyword


Local type-inference, blend of an ML flavored FP with OOP without the noise and believe it or not, even more powerful in specifying generic type constraints. No stupid JVM type erasures either so you can actually create an instance of a generic type, just like C++ templates.




for i in enumerate(seq)

for key, value in dictionary

Type(value) explicit type conversion syntax

No public/private/protected class member access modifier bullshit

Array literals, dictionary is also like Python but use [] instead of {}


0..100, 100_000



Scheme, Coffeescript:

? optional type modifier


$0, $1... inside short callback closures



break-less switch, optional fall-thru, comma as multiple case, case can be any value of any type, condition or a type constraint for pattern matching, supports method call shorthand

generic type constraint queries

overflow operators

@prefix, @postfix, @infix, @assignment modifiers for operator overloadingTrailing closure as partial function application



Seems like array[4..6] is even more useless than Javascript's Array#slice, and a far cry from Python's slices.

No set literals and list/set/dict comprehension.

Nothing for concurrency???? No yield, no generators, no channels, not even the synchronized keyword.

There's no decorator or annotations, and Swift isn't Objective-C, what's with the odd-ball @ modifiers?

I don't see namespaces as mentioned in the WWDC slides, and goto is definitely still here so you might just write another gotofail.

Looks like Swift is Apple's answer to Go, Rust, Scala, Java, PyObjC/RubyMotion, Unity, Xamarin and all these HTML5 + JS/Phonegap people. I'll definitely pay attention to Swift. If the performance results hold up, Swift + iOS8 will definitely leave Android's ancient Java 5 crap way out in the dust.


tptacek 5 days ago 7 replies      
I just skimmed the tour, and my impression is: Swift is a compiled, Objective-C compatible Javascript-alike with an ObjC-like object model, generics, and string interpolation. No exceptions. Based on LLVM and appears to inherit the same data structures as Cocoa apps (Dictionaries, Arrays, &c).

It feels very lightweight, sort of like an analog to what Javascript is in a browser.

reuven 5 days ago 8 replies      
I find it a bit sad that with all of the languages that already exist, Apple found it necessary to invent a completely new one -- and then make it proprietary. Why not use Ruby, or Python, or JavaScript -- or even Go, Rust, Clojure, or Scala? (Yes, I realize that the latter two run on the JVM, which would have been problematic in other ways.)

Heck, they could have bought RubyMotion and made Ruby the high-level language of choice for development.

I realize that Apple has a long tradition of NIH ("not invented here"), and in many cases, it suits them, and their users, quite well. But there are so many languages out there already that it seems like a waste for Apple to create a new one. Just the overhead of developing the language, nurturing its ecosystem, and ensuring compatibility seems like it'll cost more time and money than would have been necessary if they had gone with an existing language.

kjjw 5 days ago 3 replies      
"The company says that Swift apps are significantly faster than Objective-C apps, outperforming them by over 93x."

With a graph showing ObjC at 127x faster than Python, Swift 220x faster than Python.

Thus the conclusion is 220 - 127, Swift is 93x faster than ObjC.

Someone needs to resit their GCSEs.

solutionyogi 5 days ago 1 reply      
Enumerations (from: https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/documenta...):

Unlike C and Objective-C, Swift enumeration members are not assigned a default integer value when they are created. In the CompassPoints example above, North, South, East and West do not implicitly equal 0, 1, 2 and 3. Instead, the different enumeration members are fully-fledged values in their own right, with an explicitly-defined type of CompassPoint.

+100 for that. This will help developer avoid whole class of bugs.

Enumerations also support associated values. Enums in .NET are very poorly defined. Looks like Swift got it right.

phaedryx 5 days ago 4 replies      
First question that comes to mind: how open is this language?

(I can't find any references to it)

habosa 5 days ago 1 reply      
1) This looks much less intimidating than Obj-C, I may finally write an iOS app.

2) Hopefully this puts some pressure on Google to make Go on Android easy (although I'm a Java guy myself).

3) What about swift-lang (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Aswift...). It has the same name and almost the same icon. Did they work with these people or just screw them?

kristofferR 5 days ago 1 reply      
Here's the book for those without access to an iTunes account:


roberthahn 5 days ago 2 replies      
My first instinct was to be cautious about new languages from Apple - Dylan was supposed to be something awesome until Apple cancelled it. But I only learned of the existence of Dylan years after it was cancelled. Looked awesome, but it was so niche I didn't want to spend time learning it.

So I took a moment to look at why Dylan was cancelled.[1] Veryin interesting stuff. What it came down to was:

    - Apple was in dire financial straits    - Apple needed to axe all projects that didn't show commercial viability    - At the time, when Apple was transitioning to PowerPC, Dylan was 68K only, and needed another year or two to be ported    - Most damning, the project was not finished - it wasn't even in the optimization stage.
None of these factors are in play here. So. My worries are assuaged. I do want to learn this, and it looks really easy to pick up so far.

I'm really curious now about two (unrelated) things:

1) is this good enough to build web apps with?2) how would one manage the transition of an Obj-C based project to a Swift-based one? Assume I don't have the budget or manpower to perform a ground-up rewrite.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Dylan_programmin...

owenwil 5 days ago 1 reply      
We're writing a story for The Next Web on Swift. If anyone's interested in being interviewed for an article, can you flick me an email on owen@thenextweb.com with brief answers to some or all of the following questions. I'd love to talk to anyone who's used Objective-C before and share your opinions/experience:

1) How does Apple releasing Swift make you feel as an Objective-C developer?

2) Are you excited to code using Swift?

3) What about Swift makes you most excited?

4) Do you worry about upskilling to Swift?

5) How do you think Swift will change the way you work?

6) What concerns do you have about swift?

Keen to understand how this impacts people and share that if you have time to talk to me :)

If you don't want to email, just reply here.

manojlds 5 days ago 4 replies      
> Looking for the Swift parallel scripting language? Please visit http://swift-lang.org

Apple knew there was Swift-Lang, and still called this Swift. At least they link to it from their website!

houshuang 5 days ago 8 replies      
The live REPL is totally out of Bret Victor, very impressive.
keithwarren 4 days ago 1 reply      
500+ comments and the term asynchronous does not appear once. It is a platform pain point, several languages have baked in support for async scenarios and Apple comes up with a whole new language, ignores it and a forum full of language geeks talks about it and no one points out it is missing.
robert_tweed 5 days ago 1 reply      
I really hope this language is going to become an open standard quickly. Here's hoping the language design is not too tightly coupled to the OS APIs.
goblin89 5 days ago 0 replies      
Swift reminded me of CoffeeScript a little, in a good sense (judging by what they showed during WWDC demo). Complexity and low-levelness of Objective-C is (was?) how I justified my reluctance to program for Apple devices, so I'll be looking forward to Swift.

The IDE they demoed looks very interesting on its ownit reminded me of Bret Victor's posts (http://worrydream.com/LearnableProgramming/). Immediate interactive code visualization, quite impressive.

kunstmord 5 days ago 10 replies      
Oh God, they just compared the speed of Objective C, Swift and... Python! It's nice to see Swift being faster than Objective C, etc., but what has Python got to do with coding native iOS/OS X apps? Of course it's going to fail at speed when compared to a static compiled language.

What a weird and pointless comparison, imo (I mean the inclusion of Python, seems so random to me).

meshko 5 days ago 1 reply      
Reading people compare Swift to other languages is pretty hilarious. OCaml.. Haskell.. CoffeeScript.. Ruby.. Go... Kotlin... JavaScript.. Scala...No one is saying it so I will: It looks like damn Java 8.

It is probably not a good sign that it can be immediately compared to every modern (and not so modern) language in existence.

abruzzi 5 days ago 3 replies      
Unicode variables, I love it:

let = "dogcow"


p0nce 5 days ago 1 reply      
My thoughts while browsing the site:

- function-level type inference much like Rust

- no constness in the type-system (I like it)

- class are reference types, structs are values types, much like D and C#

- runtime dispacthed OO interfaces called "protocols". Blend the difference between runtime or compile-time polymorphism. Classes, structs and enums can implement a protocol. Available as first class runtime values, so the protocol dispatch will be slow like in Golang.

- enumerations are much like Ocaml ADT, can be parameterized by a tuple of values, value types, recursive definitions (nice)

- worrying focus on properties.

- strange closure syntax

- optional chaining, another anti-feature in my eyes

- normal arithmetic operator throws a trap on integer overflow (!). This must be incredibly slow.

- looks like Array is a fat slice to a reference-counted array

- operator overloading is in, supercharged with custom operators, custom precedence (!?)

- builtin tuples syntax

- break with C integer promotion, like Rust.

- no pointers

- convenience is a keyword!

- no exceptions (!)

- unsigned integers: check

- type inference is "bidirectional by expression or statement"

- classes have deterministic destructors, structs have no destructors

- It seems the only RAII source is through RC and classes.

- no single root class

Make your own opinion.

psibi 5 days ago 1 reply      
I'm interested to see the license under which Swift is released but it isn't mentioned anywhere. Is it under EULA or released under some open source license ?
seanalltogether 5 days ago 4 replies      
What i don't really see in the docs is how to calls to objective-c methods are sorted out. For instance, if I have an objective-c class with a method

    -(void)addNumber:(NSNumber*)num withString:(NSString*)str;
How is this called in swift? Is it

    myobj.addNumber(42, withString:"Hello World")?

outworlder 5 days ago 6 replies      
Ok, what about runtime support for older devices/iOS versions? They didn't say anything about it.
plainOldText 5 days ago 3 replies      
Swift has also pattern matching which I think is really awesome.
paperwork 5 days ago 1 reply      
The documents for ios 8 show all examples in objective-c. Can't wait for them to be updated to swift. I'd love to start with 'getting started' and work my way through rest of the docs. I'm a programmer but could never stomach objective-c.
krrishd 5 days ago 1 reply      
One thing I'm very interesting in knowing is how this affects the whole 'hybrid/web app' space.

Many web developers (like myself) have used Phonegap/Cordova in conjunction with tools like the Ionic Framework for our apps, primarily due to the nearly esoteric (for some of us) nature of Obj-C, but Swift almost looks like JS, which certainly has motivated me to learn it and use it in future apps.

I wonder if the aforementioned tools will lose market share because of that. Let's see.

Someone 5 days ago 0 replies      
I don't have access to a machine with the new Xcode yet, but reading the book in iBooks, I found:

    NOTE    For the best experience, open this chapter as a playground in Xcode.    Playgrounds allow you to edit the code listings and see the result immediately.
Downloading gives me https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/documenta..., a zip file with about 50 html files, a .css, about 40 .swift files and two files Results.playgrounddata and contents.xcplayground

Does that mean that playgrounds can be used for literate programming?

hrktb 5 days ago 3 replies      
I found the notion of "Optionals" surprising and a bit hard to handle at first. In Objective C it was really easy to lazily allow values to be nil and still do things on them, so it's a bit of a departure.

Thinking about it a bit longer, is it because of the clear distinction between non nullable values ans optionals that the compiler can optimise the code so much more ? (I am thinking about the xx times faster than Objective C claims)

chc 5 days ago 1 reply      
There's one thing that bothers me about Swift, and I feel like I must not be getting it. For the most part it looks like a very well-designed language, and the choices they made are extremely pragmatic. But the way collection mutability is determined seems positively insane. You can't have a mutable reference to an immutable array, or vice-versa. I don't get the reasoning behind that.
slashnull 5 days ago 0 replies      
Somebody leak this manual please for the love of everything that is holy

... well I meant put it somewhere I could download from my Debian

stcredzero 5 days ago 2 replies      
The demo from the WWDC keynote is quite impressive. Unfortunately, this site seems to have been slashdotted. (Basically, Swift is "Apple acquires their own LightTable.") It's touted as a language for parallelism. I'm curious about its concurrency primitives. Since distribution is shown as a top feature, I'm going to guess that it has an Erlang-like actor model.

Having ARC and not needing GC will end up being a big fundamental advantage for its parallelism story. (The problem with GC, is that one thread does work, then a GC thread comes along and possibly causes an additional cache miss.)

codezero 4 days ago 2 replies      
A lot of commenters here are asking whether it will be open sourced, I'm curious, specific to those who think it should be open sourced: why? I'm not really curious about the philosophical reasons, but really the practical ones. How would Swift being open source help you as a developer? It's clearly targeted at iOS and Mac OS X, so does this mean you won't write Mac OS X or iOS apps if it's not open source, or did you hope that you could write Swift code on other platforms?
chrisdevereux 5 days ago 2 replies      
Anyone know how Swift might achieve its claimed speedup vs. Objective-C? I can't see how it could get the advertised numbers without method inlining, which appears to be incompatible with the dynamic object model that it inherits from Objective-C
bigtunacan 5 days ago 0 replies      
I'm a bit surprised by this move. I see that there are some advantages to this new language, but Objective-C is not as unapproachable as the unwashed masses make it out to be.

If Apple wanted to add official support for a new language I would think it would have been a better move to use something that already has an established following and could potentially attract new developers over. Something like Ruby/Python/Lua would seem to fit the bill nicely.

We've already seen Ruby can be done successfully on Mac with MacRuby and RubyMotion, but it nevers get full support from Apple.

Adding an additional programming language that binds me only to Mac platforms doesn't give me a whole lot of incentive.

ashearer 4 days ago 0 replies      
Swift is designed to make many common C and Objective-C errors less likely, but at least one class of bugs could be ascendant: off-by-one errors in ranges. Swift's ".." and "..." range operators are reversed compared to Ruby and CoffeeScript.

Swift's way is arguably more sensible: the longer operator makes a longer range. But switching the way two similar-looking operators work, as opposed to at least two other languages popular with the target audience, is bound to lead to errors as programmers switch contexts.

Just the fact of having the two operators in the language together is dangerous, since they look similar and switching them will lead to weird bugs instead of immediate compile-time or runtime errors. Switching their meanings makes this more pernicious.

Time to prime our eyeballs to look out for this one.

[1] Swift book: Use .. to make a range that omits its upper value, and use ... to make a range that includes both values.

Excerpt From: Apple Inc. The Swift Programming Language. iBooks. https://itun.es/us/jEUH0.l

[2] Ruby: "Ranges constructed using .. run from the beginning to the end inclusively. Those created using ... exclude the end value." [http://www.ruby-doc.org/core-2.1.2/Range.html]

[3] CoffeeScript: "With two dots (3..6), the range is inclusive (3, 4, 5, 6); with three dots (3...6), the range excludes the end (3, 4, 5)".

3rd3 5 days ago 0 replies      
Hopefully there are some of Bret Victors "lost" ideas in there: http://worrydream.com/Apple/
malandrew 5 days ago 0 replies      
Looks like they've learned a lot from Haskell (but with none of the parts of Haskell that force you to construct things purely).

Looking forward to the Lambda the Ultimate discussions on this new language.

bobz 5 days ago 3 replies      
Anybody have any reference to language docs?
pajju 4 days ago 0 replies      
There is the official Swift Book: The Swift Programming Language by Apple Inc.

Book Link: https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-swift-programming-langu...

Swift is a new programming language for creating iOS and OS X apps.

Swift builds on the best of C and Objective-C, without the constraints of C compatibility. Swift adopts safe programming patterns and adds modern features to make programming easier, more flexible, and more fun. Swifts clean slate, backed by the mature and much-loved Cocoa and Cocoa Touch frameworks, is an opportunity to reimagine how software development works.

This book provides:

- A tour of the language.

- A detailed guide delving into each language feature.

- A formal reference for the language.

Hope it helps.

andybak 5 days ago 3 replies      
I'm reading the manual and liking nearly everything. But then I stumble across:

> Alternatively, remove a key-value pair from a dictionary with the removeValueForKey method.

Is that the day where an Objective-C got to choose method names? Why not dict.delete() or similar?

georgewfraser 5 days ago 6 replies      
You appear to be advocating a new:

[ ] functional [X] imperative [X] object-oriented [X] procedural [X] stack-based

[ ] "multi-paradigm" [ ] lazy [ ] eager [X] statically-typed [ ] dynamically-typed

[ ] pure [X] impure [ ] non-hygienic [ ] visual [ ] beginner-friendly

[ ] non-programmer-friendly [ ] completely incomprehensible

programming language. Your language will not work. Here is why it will not work.

You appear to believe that:

[X] Syntax is what makes programming difficult

[ ] Garbage collection is free [ ] Computers have infinite memory

[ ] Nobody really needs:

    [X] concurrency  [ ] a REPL  [ ] debugger support  [ ] IDE support  [ ] I/O    [X] to interact with code not written in your language
[ ] The entire world speaks 7-bit ASCII

[X] Scaling up to large software projects will be easy

[X] Convincing programmers to adopt a new language will be easy

[X] Convincing programmers to adopt a language-specific IDE will be easy

[ ] Programmers love writing lots of boilerplate

[ ] Specifying behaviors as "undefined" means that programmers won't rely on them

[ ] "Spooky action at a distance" makes programming more fun

Unfortunately, your language (has/lacks):

[ ] comprehensible syntax [ ] semicolons [ ] significant whitespace [ ] macros

[X] implicit type conversion [ ] explicit casting [ ] type inference

[ ] goto [ ] exceptions [ ] closures [X] tail recursion [ ] coroutines

[ ] reflection [X] subtyping [X] multiple inheritance [ ] operator overloading

[X] algebraic datatypes [ ] recursive types [ ] polymorphic types

[X] covariant array typing [ ] monads [ ] dependent types

[ ] infix operators [ ] nested comments [ ] multi-line strings [ ] regexes

[ ] call-by-value [ ] call-by-name [ ] call-by-reference [ ] call-cc

The following philosophical objections apply:

[ ] Programmers should not need to understand category theory to write "Hello, World!"

[ ] Programmers should not develop RSI from writing "Hello, World!"

[ ] The most significant program written in your language is its own compiler

[X] The most significant program written in your language isn't even its own compiler

[X] No language spec

[X] "The implementation is the spec"

   [X] The implementation is closed-source  [ ] covered by patents  [ ] not owned by you
[X] Your type system is unsound [ ] Your language cannot be unambiguously parsed

   [ ] a proof of same is attached   [ ] invoking this proof crashes the compiler
[X] The name of your language makes it impossible to find on Google

[ ] Interpreted languages will never be as fast as C

[ ] Compiled languages will never be "extensible"

[ ] Writing a compiler that understands English is AI-complete

[ ] Your language relies on an optimization which has never been shown possible

[ ] There are less than 100 programmers on Earth smart enough to use your language

[ ] ____________________________ takes exponential time

[ ] ____________________________ is known to be undecidable

Your implementation has the following flaws:

[ ] CPUs do not work that way

[ ] RAM does not work that way

[ ] VMs do not work that way

[ ] Compilers do not work that way

[ ] Compilers cannot work that way

[ ] Shift-reduce conflicts in parsing seem to be resolved using rand()

[ ] You require the compiler to be present at runtime

[ ] You require the language runtime to be present at compile-time

[ ] Your compiler errors are completely inscrutable

[ ] Dangerous behavior is only a warning

[ ] The compiler crashes if you look at it funny

[ ] The VM crashes if you look at it funny

[ ] You don't seem to understand basic optimization techniques

[ ] You don't seem to understand basic systems programming

[ ] You don't seem to understand pointers

[ ] You don't seem to understand functions

Additionally, your marketing has the following problems:

[X] Unsupported claims of increased productivity

[X] Unsupported claims of greater "ease of use"

[ ] Obviously rigged benchmarks

   [ ] Graphics, simulation, or crypto benchmarks where your code just calls       handwritten assembly through your FFI   [ ] String-processing benchmarks where you just call PCRE   [ ] Matrix-math benchmarks where you just call BLAS
[ ] Noone really believes that your language is faster than:

    [ ] assembly  [ ] C  [ ] FORTRAN  [ ] Java  [ ] Ruby  [ ] Prolog
[ ] Rejection of orthodox programming-language theory without justification

[ ] Rejection of orthodox systems programming without justification

[ ] Rejection of orthodox algorithmic theory without justification

[ ] Rejection of basic computer science without justification

Taking the wider ecosystem into account, I would like to note that:

[ ] Your complex sample code would be one line in: _______________________

[ ] We already have an unsafe imperative language

[X] We already have a safe imperative OO language

[ ] We already have a safe statically-typed eager functional language

[ ] You have reinvented Lisp but worse

[ ] You have reinvented Javascript but worse

[X] You have reinvented Java but worse

[ ] You have reinvented C++ but worse

[ ] You have reinvented PHP but worse

[ ] You have reinvented PHP better, but that's still no justification

[ ] You have reinvented Brainfuck but non-ironically

In conclusion, this is what I think of you:

[X] You have some interesting ideas, but this won't fly.

[ ] This is a bad language, and you should feel bad for inventing it.

[ ] Programming in this language is an adequate punishment for inventing it.

lechevalierd3on 5 days ago 2 replies      
I really wish we could play with it, without having to be a paid member.

It's crazy how Apple is always so scared to release dev tools, at the end it will be out-there on bittorrent anyway...

thumbtackthief 5 days ago 1 reply      
So, I picked up Objective-C a few weeks ago, and I've been struggling (only coming from a Python background, with only the CS-knowledge I've picked up along the way). I just figured it would be fun to be able to make some apps. What would your advice be? Stick with Objective C, or switch over to learning Swift? Swift looks a lot more friendly, but I don't want to sell myself short. I'm also thinking big picture, where learning Obj-C might eventually be helpful in learning other languages.
anigbrowl 5 days ago 0 replies      
It seems perfectly serviceable, but I have to admit that my reflex response on opening the page was 'Oh god, another language?'

I can't tell if Apple is proposing this as a great new language everyone should use, or whether it's only intended for developers using Apple hardware and so represents a sort of lock-in strategy. I don't have an opinion on the language itself - it seems to have several neat features that make it easier/safer than competing languages like js, but presumably there are a few shortcomings as well.

mblakele 5 days ago 0 replies      
In the playground REPL, am I missing an easy way to display errors as they happen?

It seems any error messages aren't visible by default. Xcode shows a red "!" disc next to the line, and that's it.

The usual shortcuts for "Jump to next/previous issue" are disabled. Opening the issues tab with command-4 works, but it's empty. Apparently I have to mouse over and click on the tiny red disc to see any error message at all, and then it displays as text that can't be selected or copied.

EDIT: ctrl-command-M turns "Show all issues" on or off. It seems to be a little buggy, which may be why it's off by default. Hopefully we'll get the ability to copy the error text in the next refresh.

krrishd 5 days ago 1 reply      
Now, if Go was implemented on Android, I'd probably develop a lot more for mobile.
Osmium 5 days ago 0 replies      
Perhaps it was just for the benchmark, but it seemed ambitious that they're testing encryption algorithms with it already. Does anyone know if Swift, by design, could help avoid issues like they've had recently with Secure Transport?
streblo 5 days ago 0 replies      
At a glance, it looks like ScalaScript
y14 5 days ago 1 reply      
Automatic Reference Counting

Swift uses Automatic Reference Counting (ARC) to track and manage your apps memory usage. In most cases, this means that memory management just works in Swift, and you do not need to think about memory management yourself. ARC automatically frees up the memory used by class instances when those instances are no longer needed.

Excerpt From: Apple Inc. The Swift Programming Language. iBooks. https://itun.es/il/jEUH0.l

bsaul 5 days ago 1 reply      
One question to the audience : i've had a look at the swift iBook and noticed that dictionary are strongly typed. Which is great in a way, but now i wonder :

how would you create a json deserializer ( which conveniently deserialized into NSArray and NSDictionnary of anything ) ? I didn't see any "object" or "id" type equivalent.

akras14 5 days ago 3 replies      
Can anybody find a link to the Swift guide that they mentioned in Keynote? All I see is Taylor Swift books.
slashnull 5 days ago 1 reply      

Swift: a language for parallel scripting, 2011, mostly from University of Chicago

Anyone knows if it's related?

neals 5 days ago 1 reply      
Does this mean I can finally get around to porting my phonegap plugins over to iOS without having to dive deeply into Objective-c?
sriku 5 days ago 1 reply      
The `enum` part of the language seems to be Haskellish algebraic types - like you can have enum "cases" with parameters in addition to just named enumerations .. and these enums can have methods. Cool!
gulpahum 5 days ago 2 replies      
For those without iBook, here's an excerpt from "The Swift Programming Language": http://pastebin.com/xsr401gt
pmalynin 5 days ago 0 replies      
As someone who's biggest hurdle was the syntax of Objective-C, this is absolutely massive personally. Just the other day, me and my friend was discussing how hard Objective-C is to properly learn. Of course, the jury is still out on Swift until I read further on it, but it can't possibly be worse then Objective-C.

Looking forward to it.

ekeren 5 days ago 0 replies      
It is exciting, the language is full of modern stuff... This is what I catch at a glance of the book:

- Optionals (Java's @Nullable)

- Tupples

- Functions as first class citizens

- let vs var (immutable vs mutable)

- Operators are functions

- Closures

- Extensions (Adding things to an existing class)

- Value object (struct - are passed by value -- and so are Strings!!! )

- Reference Objects (class)

- Generics (lets hope it will be better than Java's version)

- External Parameters ??

- @final keyword (to prevent overrides - like Java's final)

It kinda looks like C# meets Ruby meets the let keywordVery complex...

And More

- object reference operator === and !==

- typealias (~ typdef)

- Optional Binding (if let x = y.f() { } else {}

- for-in loops (for i in 0...count)

- The default behavior of switch is not to fallthrough

callmeed 5 days ago 0 replies      
Someone bought swiftcasts.com today ... http://whois.domaintools.com/swiftcasts.com
niutech 5 days ago 0 replies      
There will be the Swift language developer center at http://swiftlang.eu - right now it redirects to the Apple website.

The Swift eBook is available at http://book.swiftlang.eu

What would you like to see there beyond reference docs, guides and examples?

basilbthoppil 5 days ago 0 replies      
"When Apple announced Swift at WWDC, it got the largest cheer out of the developer audience than any other single feature." :D Sigh of relief!
cw0 5 days ago 0 replies      
HR departments around the world are going to have to update their mobile dev job postings to include "3+ years of experience with Swift."
Osmium 5 days ago 3 replies      
Question: It sounds like the Xcode 6 beta is available on the dev center but I can't find it. Do you have to be a paying developer to have access to it, or does anyone know if it's going to be made available for free to (unpaid) registered developers?
fra 5 days ago 2 replies      
A lot of the syntax is incredibly similar to rust.
klrr 5 days ago 0 replies      
"innovative" "new" "concise" "expressive" "lightning-fast"

God, I love Apple. Now I just wish real innovative languages could market themselves as efficient.

protomyth 5 days ago 0 replies      
So, they have the weird syntax the MacRuby people were using. I really hate they removed the Smalltalk selector syntax and replaced it with the half-thingy.
higherpurpose 5 days ago 2 replies      
So Google...still not going to push Go to Android, already?
skizm 5 days ago 1 reply      
So is swift an extension of c like obj-c is? In theory, can I have a program/app that uses swift, obj-c, and c syntax all in the same file?
neovive 5 days ago 0 replies      
This is a fascinating development. I wonder how Swift will impact the many cross-platform mobile frameworks. Objective-C was a big barrier for many beginners and small companies and a free and easier development language provided by Apple and supported with good docs and third-party tutorials will likely command a good amount of mind-share. It's going to be an interesting few months in the mobile development world.
diegoloop 5 days ago 0 replies      
Here are some coding styles I found for Swift: http://codingstyleguide.com/lang/23/swift
creativeembassy 5 days ago 1 reply      
Slightly disappointed that I won't be able to try it out yet, because I'm not a Mac Developer. I can't get the XCode 6 beta without it, so I'd have to cough up $99 to try a new language... It seems to me like that might hurt its adoption.
bigdubs 5 days ago 0 replies      
One of the things I look for in a language right off the bat, as it's a sign that powerful features can be built as libraries later, is some type of reflection api. There appears to be none (though attributes seem cool).
acjohnson55 4 days ago 0 replies      
It's closest relative is Kotlin, as far as I can see. It shares a lot of the same functionality, from the null-checking to generics, etc.
coherentpony 5 days ago 1 reply      
I wonder how many years, n, from now it takes for people to claim they have N > n years of experience with Swift on their CV.
erokar 5 days ago 0 replies      
Inferred types, first class functions, closures, great speed -- this looks very promising.
acmecorps 5 days ago 3 replies      
Is anyone getting the vibe that swift is golang for writing Cocoa apps, or is it just me?
Xelom 5 days ago 0 replies      
As a C# developer, I've felt familiar to this lanuage. I don't know why...
ah- 5 days ago 1 reply      
Any hints on how hard it is to call C libraries from within Swift? This might be a great way to quickly develop a native UI.
Oculus 5 days ago 1 reply      
As a detached Apple-related news follower, can some please update me: Is Swift going to become the new main development language for iOS?
LoneWolf 5 days ago 0 replies      
Now where to read some code examples, they may say its better but until I read some code I remain unconvinced (still anything sounds better than Objective-C)
tbeutel 5 days ago 1 reply      
Any ideas on how easy it will be to slurp JSON with Swift?
pocketstar 5 days ago 0 replies      
I feel like I could do most of this stuff with lua...but I haven't touched lua on iOS in years.
jbclements 5 days ago 0 replies      
I'm assuming that there's no memory safety guarantee for Swift code that interacts with Objective C code. Can anyone shed any light on this?
gverri 5 days ago 0 replies      
I just started learning Objective-C a week ago. Was almost finishing the Stanford iOS 7 course.

Coming from a Ruby background I couldn't be more surprised and excited!

lassejansen 5 days ago 0 replies      
Did anybody find information regarding namespaces?
lartoa 5 days ago 0 replies      
Swift looks promising and looks like a step in the right direction. However, looking at the reference and everything, I fail to find an answer to this question. Does the concept of private members (methods and variables) in Swift's object system not exist? It looks like every single variable is exposed fully without any way to prevent it from being so.
kondor6c 5 days ago 3 replies      
What kind of benchmark produced 220 times something faster than Python? My guess is that they did it on a mobile device and used an application like this: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/python-2.7-for-ios/id4857298...
kolev 5 days ago 0 replies      
I'm super excited about Swift as Objective-C was always a barrier for me as I dislike it very much. This was the greatest news from Apple today, I hope to see compilers on other platforms as well soon.
kclay 5 days ago 4 replies      
Maybe I'll pickup iOS dev, do you still have to have an mac to dev?
mikenwani 4 days ago 0 replies      
Noob here. I don't understand... so what happens to Objective-C? Why would you code an iOS app with one language instead of the other? Why would you use both? That just sounds like a pain. Is Swift the evolution of Objective-C or something?
njharman 5 days ago 0 replies      
> you dont even need to type semi-colons.

But you still need to type curly braces. Which are utterly redundant with indentation, pain to type, brainless task that languages should take care of, and a source of bugs.

headgasket 5 days ago 0 replies      
I hope some of the debugging UX will cross over to objC dev; my experience is that this is the weak point of the XCODE IDE.
return0 4 days ago 0 replies      
ObjC and its quirks was a major reason i never did Mac development. This sounds more interesting.
msie 5 days ago 0 replies      
Nested multiline comments. :-)
pw 5 days ago 0 replies      
Looks neat, but I'm disappointed that Apple didn't go with Ruby for their next-generation language. Things like MacRuby and Ruby Motion make it seem like that was a possibility, albeit a pretty distant one.
msie 5 days ago 0 replies      
Now I wish I knew of a tool to filter out HN comments older than x hours.
zwieback 5 days ago 0 replies      
I like the "value binding" for switch statements with tuples.
shunya 5 days ago 0 replies      
As someone who has written apps in Lua using Corona SDK. This is exciting. Syntax looks a lot like Lua/Ruby and we are not stuck using the watered down version of Lua that Corona provides.
chrisBob 5 days ago 2 replies      
Does anyone know when the new (beta) Xcode will come out?
anton_gogolev 5 days ago 1 reply      
So is Swift a managed language or what?
tumdum_ 4 days ago 0 replies      
No built in support for concurrency or parallelism :(
Alupis 5 days ago 1 reply      
Will it still cost me an Arm, a Leg, and my first born to obtain the dev tools and compile code?
domluna 5 days ago 2 replies      
It looks pretty nice, I hope they didn't forget about concurrency and parallelism. I don't see anything talking about this in the iBook.
octopus 5 days ago 0 replies      
This is probably the biggest announcement from a developer perspective. Swift looks like a language in which you can code as fast as you code in languages like Ruby or Python, while having the speed and performance of a language like Objective-C.
sredmond 4 days ago 0 replies      
As someone coming from Python and Java but always dissuaded by Objective C's menacing syntax, I am 100% behind the new change.
blutoot 4 days ago 1 reply      
What is the advantage of "func funcName() -> returnType{ }" over "returnType funcName(){ }"?
alex2014 4 days ago 1 reply      
Do we know if enums can be recursive?


enum BinaryTree = { case Leaf(Int) case Node(BinaryTree, BinaryTree)}

SneakerXZ 5 days ago 0 replies      
Why do we have to wait with submitting apps that uses Swift until fall when Swift works with iOS 6 and iOS 7?
eden-san 4 days ago 0 replies      
I am surprised noone mentioned Erlang!

Tuples and pattern matching are the bread and butter in Erlang and deserve to be mentioned as one of the source of inspiration for the Swift language.

The '_' character used to ignore some values in loops/patterns was also taken from Erlang (for _ in array { ... }).

chj 5 days ago 1 reply      
There are cool things in Swift, but I hope they just promote Javascript to a system language so that all platforms can go towards a single code base.
anilmujagic 5 days ago 0 replies      
Anyone have any links or resources?
Freaky 5 days ago 1 reply      
> language website: http://swift-lang.org/

Nope, completely different. Really scummy of Apple to just nick the name of an existing language for their new one, it's been five minutes and people are already confused.

Mistral 5 days ago 1 reply      
Can't find the link to download Xcode beta!
sidcool 5 days ago 0 replies      
Swift was the biggest announcement today. Looking forward to it.
rvillas 5 days ago 0 replies      
Oh! Finally! swf files on iOS :-)
MaysonL 5 days ago 1 reply      
Anyone else see quite a lot of Scala here?
darkhorn 5 days ago 1 reply      
Has some features from Lisp.
darkhorn 5 days ago 0 replies      
Do they have a pdf book?
X4 5 days ago 0 replies      
I'm a learning addict. Has somebody tasted it and is this worth it?
dang 5 days ago 0 replies      
We changed the url for this story from http://thenextweb.com/apple/2014/06/02/apple-announces-swift.... If we pick the wrong url, happy to change it again, so let us know. The goal is to have one discussion about each significant announcement, and have the best url for each.
sirdogealot 4 days ago 3 replies      
Me (running arch linux): Oooh! I'd love to learn a new language. And great, they have a free ebook it looks like to describe it!

Apple: To download Apple Inc.s 'The Swift Programming Language', you need to have iTunes.

Me: What?

Apple: Using a 64-bit edition of Windows? On a Mac?

Me: No.

That experience just killed a potential programmer for you right there, Apple.

I had a few hours to kill, and was pumped to jump on the next apple cash cow and help us both, but you literally killed my ability to download the manual or learn anything more about it for a few days, by which time I'll probably be onto something else.

They have this: https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/reference... But it doesn't look nearly as in depth as the ebook would be.

jasonvolpe 5 days ago 0 replies      
Logo looks a lot like a hammer and sickle.
Jordan15 5 days ago 0 replies      
Great!!!!! i never liked Objective-C anyways
joeevans1000 5 days ago 0 replies      
Oh sweet!

Another shrub in the walled garden!

yconst 5 days ago 0 replies      
This is massive.
Profpatsch 5 days ago 1 reply      
Hijacking another programming language name for your own cheap JS-syntax clone? Nice move, jerks!
Randgalt 5 days ago 0 replies      
Nothing about concurrency. Nice. STOP MAKING NEW LANGUAGES!!! This is like environment pollution and should be shunned.
clebio 5 days ago 4 replies      
"...we wondered what we could do without the baggage of C."

Is that tongue in cheek? It's not even a particularly large, encumbered language, C.

ashearer 5 days ago 3 replies      
It turns out that this is a different language. Apple overloaded the name "Swift".
rqebmm 5 days ago 4 replies      
You also dont need to write semicolons at the end of every statement.

Please. Please. PLEASE don't be whitespace delimited!

darrellsilver 5 days ago 0 replies      
Our mentors & curriculum developers went bananas when they heard about Swift so we announced the first course teaching Swift: https://www.thinkful.com/a/dlp/learn-blue/base/IOS-002
Alexander Shulgin has died erowid.org
546 points by infinity  4 days ago   135 comments top 30
pmoriarty 4 days ago 1 reply      
The BBC obituary on Shulgin[1] calls him the "Godfather of Ecstasy"[2], but he was far more than that.

He synthesized and carefully chronicled the effects of hundreds of psychoactive compounds on himself and a small, dedicated core group of explorers of human consciousness.

His efforts were published in two massive, definitive tomes called PiHKAL[3][4] and TiKHAL[5][6], the titles of which stand for "Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved" and "Tryptamines I Have Known and Loved", respectively.

These volumes contained detailed chemical synthesis instructions for the compounds he created, along with "trip reports" and ratings[7] of the compounds' psychoactivity, ranging from:

PLUS / MINUS (+/-) "The level of effectiveness of a drug that indicates a threshold action. If a higher dosage produces a greater response, then the plus/minus (+/-) was valid. If a higher dosage produces nothing, then this was a false positive."


PLUS FOUR (++++) "A rare and precious transcendental state, which has been called a 'peak experience', a 'religious experience,' 'divine transformation,' a 'state of Samadhi' and many other names in other cultures. It is not connected to the +1, +2, and +3 of the measuring of a drug's intensity. It is a state of bliss, a participation mystique, a connectedness with both the interior and exterior universes, which has come about after the ingestion of a psychedelic drug, but which is not necessarily repeatable with a subsequent ingestion of that same drug. If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end of, the human experiment."

His chemistry lab was DEA-licensed to handle "illegal" (scheduled) compounds, though he often synthesized entirely novel compounds which were not scheduled because neither the compounds nor the laws scheduling them existed yet.

Shulgin tirelessly educated the public and the law-enforcement community on the effects and value of psychedelic and psychoactive compounds, and wrote a highly informative Q&A column.[7]

Shulgin's pioneering work inspired generations of chemists, self-experimenters, and explorers. He was well known, loved, and respected as one of the most highly accomplished psychedelic chemists in history. His presence and guidance will be deeply missed.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Shulgin

[2] - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-27676669

[3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIHKAL

[4] - http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal.sht...

[5] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIHKAL

[6] - http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal.sht...

[7] - http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/blg/index.html

allworknoplay 4 days ago 1 reply      
I had dinner with him once at a conference; he was amazing. When asked about the safety of self-testing novel substances (he of course starts at insanely low doses, but still), he said that he's learned to identify the signs of grand mal seizures, and if he feels one coming on, he simply sticks himself with a couple hundred miligrams of phenobarbital, straps himself in, and goes for a ride. Then he gets back to work.
idm 4 days ago 1 reply      
MDMA may have been discovered in a Merck laboratory, but Alexander (Sasha) Shulgin devised an excellent DIY MDMA synthesis that could be attempted outside a laboratory environment. Shulgin has been accused of intentionally designing his MDMA synthesis in ways that may have reduced yields, but which utilized precursors that were simpler to obtain by DIY chemists.

Shulgin's decisions to facilitate DIY may be responsible for the proliferation of MDMA, which will only increase in importance as MDMA is given more attention in mainstream psychological research. As a psychologist myself, I suspect Shulgin's gentle subversion (a spirit that persists through PiHKAL and TiHKAL) will ultimately be viewed as a heroic act that brought attention to an important therapeutic tool.

fear91 4 days ago 1 reply      
It's a great shame.

I recommend the "Dirty Pictures" - a documentary about his life:


Nanzikambe 4 days ago 0 replies      
There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

RIP Shulgin, a singular being.

raaxe 4 days ago 1 reply      
"(with 100 mg) I had weighed correctly. I had simply picked up the wrong vial. And my death was to be a consequence of a totally stupid mistake. I wanted to walk outside, but there was a swimming pool there and I didn't dare fall into it. A person may believe that he has prepared himself for his own death, but when the moment comes, he is completely alone, and totally unprepared. Why now? Why me? Two hours later, I knew that I would live after all, and the experience became really marvelous. But the moment of facing death is a unique experience. In my case, I will some day meet it again, and I fear that I will be no more comfortable with it then than I was just now. This was from the comments of a psychologist who will, without doubt, use psychedelics again in the future, as a probe into the unknown."


VonGuard 4 days ago 1 reply      
An amazing man. Truly the Copernicus of his time: persecuted for his pursuit of science. In 100 years, this man will be considered one of the most important neural science researchers ever.
alx 4 days ago 0 replies      
"The Shulgin Rating Scale is a simple scale for reporting the subjective effect of psychoactive substances at a given dosage, and at a given time. The system was developed for research purposes by the American biochemist Alexander Shulgin and detailed in his book PiHKAL"


PLUS FOUR (++++) [...] If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment.

codeshaman 4 days ago 1 reply      
Some of the most amazing moments I've had in life were on MDMA.I'm sure this is true for hundreds of millions of other people who've taken it. This substance has revolutionised our word in many ways - music, fashion, art, architecture, etc.

Apart from MDMA, Shulgin has synthesised, experimented with and wrote about countless substances and plants which affect the mind or spirit.

A great explorer, and from what I've read, a great human being as well.

Rest in peace & Keep exploring ;)

jongold 4 days ago 2 replies      
How many people can say they've altered the course of human conciousness? What a hero. RIP.
jjj222 4 days ago 4 replies      
Today I work in IT security- in my former life, he was a great inspiration.

I had almost forgotten him.....I was in a closed circle of psychonauts, we where about 60 people.

We would get our hands on the most exotic substances and share amongst us, and compare trip reports.

It was my entire life, 2cb,2ci,2c-t7,2ce,DIPT,5-meo dipt, lsd etc. So I have tried many of hes creations, and i idolised him.Then in 6 months 4 of the group died, 1 suicide, 3 ODs(not on any of shulgins creations of course).Then I quitted, dropped all my friends, started taking life seriously....

But I have one thing to remind of that time in my life...a book I inherited from one of my now dead friends:


He actually wrote with Shulgin himself, doing experiments using cactusses injected with ummm...some variety of DMT I think- to make the cactus metabolise it into something else.Shulgin adviced him, and my friend did the experiments.


Nursie 4 days ago 0 replies      
One of my heroes has died today.

RIP to a great chemist and experimenter.

waterfowl 4 days ago 0 replies      
what a legend. One of the few people who actually bases their opinions of psychoactives on controlled experiences with them.
jMyles 4 days ago 1 reply      
I had the incredible fortune to have met Sasha and Ann several times, and always enjoyed their company enormously. Good work, man!
andywood 4 days ago 3 replies      
Would somebody be kind enough to tell me whether I've been hell-banned? Thank you.
azurelogic 4 days ago 0 replies      
The original brain hacker is no longer with us. RIP Dr. Shulgin.
muloka 3 days ago 1 reply      
Cross posting this for Erowid:


We are trying to collect a record of all tweets and retweets of hashtag:




We want to continue to track these. So we don't want just an output, but a way to grab all existing tweets and collect them going forward.

We would also like to grab google plus matching posts as well, but twitter is the first target.

If someone has PHP and twitter experience, it seems like a pretty easy application to write a scraper that saves the data to sql, xml, or text.

We want a downloadable data file that can be updated over time.

I spent a while looking for existing tools and didn't find anything that could provide a downloadable, reliable format that we could use to try to track this.

Thanks for any help or suggestions of services that would provide that data as a lump, without having to have one of us manually slog through many, many clicks and parsing extremely obscure HTML/js.



sehr 4 days ago 0 replies      
Whether or not you approve, this man had changed the face of human kind forever. An amazing man, will be missed
dzhiurgis 4 days ago 0 replies      
It would be interedting to have 'Ask HN' about drug use, especially correlated with age.

Jobs has taken many different drugs, but I can't stop wondering how long did he continue to do so. I really doubt he did any after age of 30 or so.

whtrbt 4 days ago 0 replies      
That's sad to hear - Pikhal and Tikhal are fascinating works, and reading them I got the sense that he was a very kind, patient and curious person.
dmerrick 4 days ago 1 reply      
My favorite quotation from the man:

"How long will this last, this delicious feeling of being alive, of having penetrated the veil which hides beauty and the wonders of celestial vistas? It doesn't matter, as there can be nothing but gratitude for even a glimpse of what exists for those who can become open to it."

rurban 4 days ago 0 replies      
Not to be mixed up with Alexei Shulgin, the popular internet artist from Moscow: http://www.easylife.org/He is well and alive.
ph4 4 days ago 0 replies      
A one of a kind, once in a generation human being.
h1karu 4 days ago 0 replies      
RIP to one of the true heros of our generation.

thank you Alexander Shulgin!

gone by not forgotten


igivanov 4 days ago 1 reply      
With all the praise of self-experiments (or experiments on a dedicated core group), there is this fact: we know that even a single use of a psychedelic drug may be "a life-changing experience". We also know that some substances may cause irreversible changes in the brain (e.g. glue-sniffing). So IMHO it doesn't sound like a rigorous science, who knows what changes those countless tests had caused and how those changes affected subsequent tests.
danelectro 2 days ago 0 replies      
it can be amazing what a non-institutional researcher can do
contingencies 4 days ago 1 reply      
Can we start a crowdfunding campaign for a museum of ecstasy with legal public samples? Anyone know German law? How would this go down in Darmstadt, where it was first discovered by Merck? I for one will donate significantly.
Myrmornis 3 days ago 0 replies      
I believe he was a hero.
dingdingdang 4 days ago 0 replies      
WIP, there is no death
weatherlight 4 days ago 0 replies      
A true pioneer.
Who am I: A mind reader (don't forget to view source) neocities.org
542 points by alloyed  2 days ago   166 comments top 63
mbrubeck 2 days ago 3 replies      
Here's the same exploit disguised as a game, to make it less obvious that it's tricking the user into interacting with it: http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/yahh/

Documentation of the game proof-of-concept: http://lcamtuf.blogspot.com/2013/05/some-harmless-old-fashio...

keerthiko 1 day ago 4 replies      
I could probably post a similar gizmo on HN with a results static page that says

Your interests are:(some subset of)ProgrammingScienceTechnologyGames<random other thing: Sports, TV, childcare, etc>

With literally no scripting, and everyone would find it "reasonably accurate" :D

shurcooL 2 days ago 0 replies      
Reminds me of that hunter2 password thing. http://www.bash.org/?244321

Basically, the website doesn't know which of the squares are red, that depends on your browser state. By clicking the red squares, you're feeding it data.

The interesting observation I made out of this is that navigating there in an incognito window prevents any links from being considered as visited. That's good to know.

biot 2 days ago 0 replies      
Here's a related Mozilla bug report from 2002 regarding the link visited issue: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=147777
tomasien 2 days ago 0 replies      
This just solved a huge problem I've been struggling with. This is beautiful - I don't actually want to know the information I've been trying to access, but it will make the experience better for the user. I now realize I don't HAVE to know - the browser knows, and that's all that matters. I just have to teach the browser what to do.
krat0sprakhar 1 day ago 2 replies      
If nothing else, I did get a good list of Programming and Engineering websites :D - http://pastebin.com/zrQ7EBnP
danbruc 2 days ago 3 replies      
Obvious question - how was the list of URLs compiled? Some are really specific like YouTube channels. On the other hand there are only 15 categories and there are probably a lot of people that would not get a single match or only something very generic like Wikipedia.
lewisflude 2 days ago 1 reply      
This was really accurate to me. It seems they're using a:visited on several domains to create the "red square" effect.
collinjackson 1 day ago 0 replies      
3rd3 2 days ago 1 reply      
Couldn't one simply make a display:none on normal links and display:block on :visited, then stack them all on top each other with position:absolute and catch mouse events from each element via JS?
cornholio 1 day ago 0 replies      
"Could not determine interests. (Pssst, If you did not get any red squares, try visiting without being in Private or Incognito mode)"

Indeed I am unhackable.

neya 1 day ago 1 reply      
This is mind-blowing, mine was pretty accurate! I know I can view the source code, but is this/similar code available from GitHub or somewhere for us to use in our own weekend projects? (:
mataug 2 days ago 2 replies      
This is quite clever. By the way now I've got a nice list of blogs/websites that I should probably read for various topics.
lrichardson 1 day ago 2 replies      

I know that the `:visited` exploit is handled by the browsers so that you can't figure out by javascript what is going on...

but what if you used just CSS to figure it out? For instance, what if you generated the CSS which had a unique image it requested via the `background-image` property, stored the data on the server, then just requested the data from the server after the fact?

Do the browsers prohibit the usage of url-based css properties on CSS selectors with `:visited` or something? Does anyone have a link/reference to how the exploits were patched up?

joev_ 2 days ago 1 reply      
Heh. I clicked a few before I realized what was going on (looking at the status bar shows the link, which somewhat gives it away). You could prevent this by adding mouseover/out and onclick logic that removed the :href on hover and just colored itself red.
Conlectus 1 day ago 2 replies      
Original creator here. I'm super surprised to see this posted here.

I can answer any questions people have.

MrJagil 1 day ago 0 replies      

At first I thought it would deduct information about me by analysing which squares I'd choose in what order and through other metrics like pacing.

krrishd 2 days ago 1 reply      
If you open the console and run this script, it'll click every single square, giving a list of the most common types of sites in the array being used:

     for(i=0;i<$$('a').length;i++) {       $$('a')[i].click()     }

joosters 1 day ago 1 reply      
In Firefox, you can go to about:config and set layout.css_visited_links_enabled to 'false'. This page, and others that hack the visited links styles, will no longer work.
abritishguy 1 day ago 0 replies      
I had a very similar idea a while back, except I was measuring onAnimationFrame times with a carefully crafted CSS stylesheet to determine which links were being painted as :visited automatically and completely hidden from the user.

Accuracy varied a lot between computers but in ideal circumstances (only browser running) it would have ~90% accuracy on each of 25 links I was testing against - the test took about 8 secs to run though.

Interestingly it never worked particularly well in chrome - chrome seemed to stop painting :visited elements after a certain amount which prevented it from working.

SahAssar 2 days ago 0 replies      
I remember reading about the old CSS history hack (an automated variation of the same theme), which worked until FF4 and IE9.

It's quite interesting to see how such a seemingly simple feature (a:visited) can completely override user privacy if not accounted for.

jostmey 2 days ago 4 replies      
It was eerily accurate on me.

1. science2. technology3. programming

balls187 2 days ago 4 replies      
I thought the a:visited exploit was addressed.
zatkin 2 days ago 1 reply      
What's more interesting is that someone spun off Geocities and called it Neocities.
Xeroday 2 days ago 1 reply      
Was on incognito and wondering why I didn't see any red squares...
stargazer-3 1 day ago 0 replies      
On my second try, determined to find out how it works, I drew a random smiley shape in grey box area. Painting was added to the list! Was so disappointed to find out it was a coincidence.
oneeyedpigeon 1 day ago 0 replies      
From the number of squares, I thought it might end up doing something even more 'clever' i.e. generate a square for each of the most recent n URLs from feeds of m news sites, then analyse, for example, words in headlines of those articles to determine what I'm interested in. Lots of potential for data analysis once you have someone's browser history.
gamerDude 1 day ago 0 replies      
Hahaha. I was giving it the benefit of the doubt before viewing source, and so I was wondering what happens when I push gray instead of red. :P That is probably why I got some weird interests in my results.
Conlectus 1 day ago 1 reply      
For anyone interested in the source, I started hosting it on GitHub at https://github.com/Conlectus/WhoAmI.
irises_come 2 days ago 3 replies      
Hm. Do you really need interaction at all?

Can't you just :visited { margin/pos/whatever }, then probe the dom on that or related elems to extract the juice? Or have browser vendors thought of this?

Gracana 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is really clever. One interesting use for this would be to target ads at people who visit certain sites, or to customize your site's landing page to direct visitors toward areas they might be interested in.
KoalaOnesie 1 day ago 0 replies      
I swear to god I only clicked one link to Salon and I didn't even mean it. STOP JUDGING ME
ben0x539 2 days ago 0 replies      
Doesn't work for me because I disabled :visited last time this sort of thing got discussed. :V
Gonzih 1 day ago 1 reply      
I remember few years ago this concept was demonstrated as an way to get user website history from the browser. This is big privacy hole. And sadly nothing changed. Which is sad.
cvburgess 1 day ago 0 replies      
This was exactly backwards for me... maybe I read it upside down? I jest, but the concept is cool, just needs to be refined I'm sure.
homakov 1 day ago 0 replies      
Oh also it's easy to check if you're logged in on Service1 using CSP. No user interaction, same results
tjoff 1 day ago 1 reply      
Should explain itself better.All I get is a bunch of grey boxes (no red ones) and if I click done I get "Your interests are:"
corford 2 days ago 2 replies      
No red squares here. Am I doing it wrong?
homakov 2 days ago 0 replies      
There are much more effective tricks to use in production. You can leak user's FB token for some huge client, and you get his email/name/bio.
Conlectus 1 day ago 0 replies      
Once again, creator here.

I just pushed an update that added more topics and graphs. I have had reported problems after the update. Can anyone confirm?

Fa773NM0nK 1 day ago 0 replies      
I was in Fx Private Browsing. I spent about fifteen minutes trying to figure out why I had no red square!
rburhum 1 day ago 1 reply      
Nothing was red for me
enscr 1 day ago 0 replies      
It's a shame I had only 4 red blocks. I should diversify :)

Fun experiment !

infused 1 day ago 2 replies      
I get the same three red boxes in Chrome every time, and none in Firefox or Safari. I get three categories at the end, with no links or anything. What am I doing wrong?
asadlionpk 1 day ago 0 replies      
Improvement: You can make the gray boxes light enough (same as bg) so only Red are visible.
addisaden 1 day ago 0 replies      
the trick with a:visited is really awesome :D

see on github:https://github.com/Conlectus/WhoAmI/blob/master/css/main.css

GUNHED_158 1 day ago 0 replies      
Some people are just too genius or protective of their privacy to enjoy this! :)
melipone 1 day ago 0 replies      
How are the categories obtained?
dalek2point3 1 day ago 0 replies      
can someone post a screenshot of what happens once you click all the red boxes? I have too many of them and dont want to do it ...
lurkinggrue 1 day ago 0 replies      
It didn't work for me.
maerF0x0 2 days ago 0 replies      
Haha, should have been pr0n sites :P
periferral 2 days ago 0 replies      
I am <blank>???
udayadds 1 day ago 0 replies      
Can we use this for filtering hacker news articles?
oeN 1 day ago 0 replies      
funny, perfect result!! and the concept is so simple, well done!
iopq 1 day ago 0 replies      
piratebay is not movies
mundanevoice 2 days ago 1 reply      
Wao, reading my browser history while I am playing a stupid game. Elegant. :)
aps-sids 1 day ago 0 replies      
I had opened link in Private (incognito) window. #fail
oakaz 1 day ago 0 replies      
Results are good except that I have no gaming sites in my history actually
closetnerd 2 days ago 0 replies      
Hmm, clever.
Daggett 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is pure genius.
zenjzen 2 days ago 0 replies      
aligajani 2 days ago 0 replies      
I just read the source code, uses caches.
zongitsrinzler 1 day ago 2 replies      
This can be done without any user interaction (and most likely has done to you without you knowing it). Check this link for 101: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1584850/is-it-possible-t...
I Sold My Startup for $25.5 Million slate.com
526 points by ForHackernews  1 day ago   235 comments top 29
mattzito 1 day ago 13 replies      
The really critical point I'd like to highlight is this one:

> Marins team sent over a list of hundreds of technical, legal, and business questions that wed need to answer for the deal to go through...Tracking down document after document was tedious beyond compare.

Having your ducks in a row as much as possible can make a huge difference in the complexity, risk, and overall stress of doing a sale/acquisition.

I don't mean Day 1, of course, but once you're starting to have conversations around acquisitions, it's really helpful to make sure your books are clean, that you have clearly documented your software stack, all of the third-party code you use and licenses, all of the contracts and MSAs you might have signed iwth your customers, employment agreements with contractors, and so on.

It's annoying, but once you have it done it's relatively easy to keep up to date.

When we sold our last startup, our CFO had done this 10+ times before, and on the first day of the due diligence, he handed over a URL for a data room with hundreds of documents, categorized and neatly organized. The acquirer's lawyers said it was the easiest DD they'd ever seen.

EDIT: I sentence misplaced words in a

callmeed 1 day ago 7 replies      
> What you realize, though, is that partnerships are rarely a real thing.

This is tangential to the core of the article but I can't stress enough how true this is. In the two companies I've co-founded, we've been approached for partnerships by huge companies (Oracle and Adobe) and tiny, 1-person, pre-revenue shops. In almost every instance, it's been a net loss in time and money. The tiny shops just want help making inroads into your industry and customer base. The huge companies just want to show they have "partners" to their direct reports or sales leads. They'll ask you to build out some integrations (on your dime) and scrap the entire project 6 months later (true story). To them, it's a rounding error but to a startup, the financial and opportunity costs can really hurt. There's a reason Gail Goodman calls partnerships a "mirage" [0].

It's great that this call turned into an acquisition for Perfect Audience. I would advise everyone to take Brad's advice: take the call and maybe a meetingbut just one. Unless the meeting goes well and the strategic fit is too obvious to ignore, just say "no" to partnerships.

[0] VIDEO: http://pawel.ch/post/71104054756/the-long-slow-saas-ramp-of-...[0] TRANSCRIPT: http://businessofsoftware.org/2012/10/gail-goodman-the-long-...

sriramk 1 day ago 1 reply      
I once got to meet a bunch of M&A/corp dev people from Google/FB and other companies together and asked them "What would you do if you were a founder and wanted to streamline an acquisition?". Across the board, the top response was "Have all your paperwork in order from day 1 - employment agreements, IP assignments, every single thing you can think of"
Osiris 1 day ago 8 replies      
I just started working at my first startup. Given that the employees are so crucial in building the product that is sold, why is it so uncommon for significant proceeds from M&As to go to employees rather than founders?

I realize that VCs like to take the lion's share, but even with what remains most of the stories I hear are of founders taking large payouts while employees get relatively little.

I applaud Perfect Audience for recognizing the value of employees and allowing them to participate in the windfall.

mattm 1 day ago 9 replies      
Man, that ending is brutal. So the point of building a business and selling it is so you can post about it on Facebook? Congratulations on all the effort and succes, nonetheless.
mbesto 1 day ago 0 replies      
"One thing that did cut through the exhaustion was a task Id been anticipating for more than six years: writing the Facebook post in which I announce to friends, former friends, frenemies, ex-girlfriends, college roommates, future wives, and family members that I was not in fact an obscure failure but a new, minor footnote in the annals of Silicon Valley startup successes."

Amen. This has been personally the hardest thing for me about being a tech entrepreneur. My friends all assume that overnight I'm going to be the next Zuck (I'm not) and wonder why I don't have time for them. Let's take aside the fact that I'm a fairly privileged person, it doesn't negate the fact that putting my heart and soul into a startup, means many of my relationships have taken a back seat. That sucks, but you soon realize the relationships that are most important to you will ultimately wait.

jpadvo 1 day ago 2 replies      
So, what should a early startup be doing with "ip assignment"? We hire people from places like elance and odesk - and a few irl people - is there something we should have been having them sign?
Tossrock 1 day ago 6 replies      
How did he go 3 years, ending with a team of 12, on just a $1MM seed round? Were employees paid entirely in equity?
bruceb 1 day ago 2 replies      
How did they write an article on the outcome of my startup in 2016. You are good Slate.

Ok I won't quit the day job(startup). But seriously I wonder how much the employees actually got. Any guesses?

jimmyjohnson12 1 day ago 0 replies      
Yeah huge tech firms reached out to our company. After going out of our way (many miles) & spending a ton of money to demo they were horribly rude. They literally took their huge name/foot and squashed us like a bug. They promised us the moon and the sun and when we arrived it was hell with how they treated us. Saying things as they showed us to door... "You better run fast the race is on." This is after they baited us for our secret sauce with promises of helping us out and or more (we didn't divulge everything). Also, they blocked our tech from working during our demo (wth?).

Well after that experience when other big tech firms reach out .. one recently asking let us understand how your technology works. I'm like HA screw you!

Partnerships are a time sink. One that could go nowhere, get you feeling squashed like a bug or actually provide a win.

Though that's how it all goes with this entrepreneurship game. Game on!

7Figures2Commas 1 day ago 5 replies      
This is a success story no doubt; a $25 million exit in under 3 years and with just ~$1 million in funding is obviously a better outcome than what the vast majority of startups will ever realize. But it also highlights just how hard it is to realize a meaningful windfall as a startup employee.

Even if you assumed that the 12 non-founder employees equally split 50% of the company (which is almost certainly high), likely none would net $1 million after exercising their options and paying taxes. What's worse: the vast majority of this deal was paid for in stock. The Marin Software stock chart over the past two years is not very inspiring, which is especially interesting given how good the market has been to so many other tech/software companies. In an all or mostly stock deal involving a public company, you are ideally acquired by a company with a rich valuation. That's not the case here.

The $2.7 million in equity retention grants, if split equally amongst 12 employees, adds $225,000 for each, but that too is stock and the employees have to stick around and work for it. I don't know much about the acquirer, but working for stock that has for some reason languished during one of the most impressive bull markets in history isn't a very compelling proposition.

This all seems lost on the founder of the company. I can't help but wonder if it's lost on the employees too.

ZanyProgrammer 23 hours ago 0 replies      
"a software platform which helps small businesses buy online ads" is worth 25 million dollars? What a messed up world we live in.
latj 1 day ago 2 replies      
Why do you have to keep selling a secret from employees?
smoyer 1 day ago 1 reply      
"Total strangers on the Internet were speculating on why we sold, how much we might have made, and what our revenues might have looked like."

This is what the Internet does, and for better or worse, I hope my (advertised) speculation[1] what taken in the vein it was offered - without judgement or malice.

Now that we know more about the deal, I'd like to add my congratulations to you and the employees. I've sold two companies (well ... my part of them) so I know the anxiety that comes right before and right after the sale. It sounds like you've made a very wise decision and I wish you the best as part of Marin.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7837232

bdevine 1 day ago 2 replies      
I haven't heard this term before, but maybe that's just me:

"... it became clear that ad retargetingin which you show ads to people who recently visited your websitewas where MARKETEERING dollars were going" (emphasis mine).

That's an interesting turn of phrase: it evokes Disney's Imagineers, who can be loosely said to be engineers with a heavily creative bent, and applies it to the act of marketing, thereby implying a more heavily creative and technically adept form of "marketer". I wonder if "X-eer" is an inchoate language trend?

pyfish 1 day ago 0 replies      
"Unlike a lot of other startups that give options to their employees, wed given them actual shares."

Nicely done and congrats.

andywood 1 day ago 0 replies      
Congrats!! That's a pretty big win!
pbhjpbhj 1 day ago 0 replies      
Bleurgh, interstitials. Yes Slate, I came to read the article, no I'm not staying around now ...
skkbits 1 day ago 0 replies      
Can we get following information from founder or does anyone know ?1. When perfectaudience was started ?2. How much revenue it had at the time of selling ?3. What was rough ( though not exact ) percentage of company holding by owners at the time of selling ? 4. What software technologies they used for this platform ?
joshdance 1 day ago 0 replies      
I liked it. Seemed more honest than many posts about acquisitions I have read. Congrats to the team.
justplay 1 day ago 0 replies      
does that guy/founder is an HN user ? I dont see any of his comment, though he mentioned Hackernews in his article.
danielweber 1 day ago 0 replies      
Damn, video with audio plays as soon as I go to that page.
binofbread 1 day ago 0 replies      
The title is a bit misleading in my opinion, but it was a good success story nonetheless. Congrats to Brad and the team.

Edit: By title I meant subtitle. I think it was changed on HN.

fedxc 1 day ago 0 replies      
Well done. No need to read any longer.
finalight 1 day ago 0 replies      
wonder what the rest of the employees will do...find new job or just relax for their entire life?
shamdressup 1 day ago 1 reply      
Step one: have money

>Perfect Audience started as an ad design product called >NowSpots, which was itself spun out of a previous company >called Windy Citizen, a local news aggregator that I >bootstrapped (entrepreneur speak for self-financed).

yunfangjuan 1 day ago 0 replies      
Congratulations to Perfect Audience. It's a great outcome!
green22803 12 hours ago 0 replies      
I'd probably have said "We Sold Our Startup", but otherwise, congrats to them!
jw989 1 day ago 0 replies      
Why are there no waffles?
A first-person engine in 265 lines of JS playfuljs.com
485 points by hunterloftis  4 days ago   97 comments top 26
devindotcom 4 days ago 1 reply      
Heh, reminds me of kkrieger - a first person shooter in 100KB for a scene demo.


pervycreeper 4 days ago 4 replies      
This demo unfortunately uses an incorrect perspective transformation. There is no reason to go to trig if you represent the camera plane as a vector, and step along it one pixel at a time, and allowing the wall height to vary linearly in the distance to the camera vector (taking lines to lines). In addition to being correct[1], it has the added benefit of being faster if implemented well.

My (admittedly n00bish and embarrassing) attempt at doing the same thing is here: https://github.com/pervycreeper/game1/blob/master/main.cpp

[1] in the sense that lines map to lines, as in most photography, Renaissance and later painting, and most computer graphics

roryokane 4 days ago 13 replies      
It is very interesting to me that you need to multiply the distance-to-wall by the cosine of the angle to transform the image from fisheye to normal. It makes me wonder, why is it that our eye in real life sees straight lines as straight, the way this demo renders the image?

To illustrate the question, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panotools5618.jpg why do we see the world as in the bottom image instead of in the top one? After all, our eye really is at different distances from different parts of a straight wall, so it sounds logical that we would see the fisheye effect describe in the article. Is the rectilinearity of the image we see caused by the shape of the lens in our eye, or by post-processing in our brain?

s-macke 4 days ago 4 replies      
My raycast engine in Javascript needs a few more lines and works a little bit different, but gives also impressive results I think :) .


tst 4 days ago 4 replies      
As someone with no experience in computer graphics it's always insane to see demos like this. Especially using just around 250 lines of javascript. Really impressive.

Also on the topic, the demo scene stuff is mind blowing, too. [0]

[0]: http://awards.scene.org/awards.php

riquito 4 days ago 0 replies      
Cool. It reminded me of a similar work published by Opera some years ago


woa! it was 2008, time sure pass by.

smrq 4 days ago 0 replies      
> Rain is simulated with a bunch of very short walls in random places.

This made me laugh. I would have never thought of that way of doing it, but before I knew how it was implemented, I didn't even notice! That's a pretty good approximation!

aaron-lebo 4 days ago 1 reply      
That's really impressive.

I've seen some people suggest that voxels are like sprites for 3d programming (as far as sheer simplicity goes), but this strikes even more so as that. How does this compare to using actual 3d/voxels? Can you still have interesting physics or do you miss out on a lot?

cwyers 4 days ago 1 reply      
I know that the arrow keys have actual arrows on them, but so many modern games have trained us to use WASD to navigate, that if you're going to insist upon the arrow keys for navigation, you should probably mention this somewhere before the link to the demo.
darkstalker 4 days ago 3 replies      
It runs really slow for me, like 1 FPS. Firefox 29 on Linux.
callumprentice 4 days ago 0 replies      
Great work. I had a huge amount of fun converting your last article (terrain renderer in a tiny number of JS) to WebGL and that was only fun because of your clean, easy to understand code. Thanks for sharing.


mazak 4 days ago 1 reply      
I'm really surprised that it's 265 and not 256... I mean, there's got to be a good reason not to make it a round number, right?I'm mind blown anyways...
thinkersilver 4 days ago 0 replies      
Raycasting brings back memories! I remember poring through raycasting techniques to make my Wolf and Doom clones as a teenager. When I was almost done I demoed this for a group of friends at our school's computer club and boy were they were impressed up until the point the clipping algorithm failed and objects stopped disappearing when they fell out of the players field of view. Was teased for months after that. ... .
eignerchris_ 4 days ago 0 replies      
This is so great. Very straightforward explanation of raycasting. Looking forward to playing with!
matheusbn 3 days ago 2 replies      
Nice demo! But one note, I don't know about DaggerFall but Duke Nukem 3D does NOT uses Raycasting to draw walls.

DN3D uses sectors (Convex Polygon) to store room's lines (or walls), and draws those lines using player's FOV (Field Of View).

When those sectors are connected with others sectors, it's called portal. This is used to sort only the sectors that is inside the player's FOV.

elnate 3 days ago 1 reply      
What's the difference between ray casting and ray tracing?
olegbl 4 days ago 0 replies      
I remember being amazed how simple raycasting was when I wrote a similar (though much simpler) engine in Java for a high school project. The "engine" itself was like ~200 lines of code in just 2 or 3 functions. Raycasting is a really clever technology. Cool demo!
rukke 3 days ago 0 replies      
Hortinstein 4 days ago 0 replies      
this is incredible. I remember doing something in C in openGL with triple the line count and not nearly as impressive results during a bachelor computer graphics class. This would have been a much more interesting lab.

Thanks for the great work, i can't wait to play around with this!

Kiro 3 days ago 1 reply      
Why do you need to use Uint8Array and not just a normal array?
mobiuscog 3 days ago 0 replies      
And it even manages to include Google Analytics !
passfree 4 days ago 0 replies      
chandrew 4 days ago 0 replies      
pearjuice 4 days ago 2 replies      
I feel very pathetic from this. You could have given me 265K lines and I wouldn't have figured it out.
JulienSchmidt 4 days ago 0 replies      
<rant about no. of lines being a completely useless metric> <jquery in 1 line>
At furbo.org
483 points by colinprince  3 days ago   96 comments top 30
elektronaut 2 days ago 2 replies      
In Norwegian the official name is "krllalfa", meaning "curly alpha". Hip in the 90s, but I don't think I've heard anyone call it that in years. I was actually surprised when I learned that "at" was the proper English name and usage. I had always assumed it was a symbol that had been co-opted into network addresses because it was accessible from the keyboard and kinda looked like an a.

One advantage of the international variants is that they're not ambiguous, whereas in English you might have to explicitly specify "the at symbol" when speaking.

As a side note: A long time ago, before the internet and international shopping, I mainly thought of $ as the variable character in BASIC.

arrrg 2 days ago 6 replies      
No one actually uses Klammeraffe in German. Its just at (English pronunciation most of the time). I wonder how widespread the use of those alternative names for at is in other languages he lists.

In German Klammeraffe is this weird, unwieldy nickname that used to be somewhat fashionable a long time ago (mid-nineties maybe, whenever many people where first confronted with email addresses). I remember it being used back then whenever people were explaining the internet in media (TV, radio, books), though I dont think it ever got widely used outside that context.

kiyoto 2 days ago 2 replies      
In Japanese, the sign itself is called "attomaaku" ("at mark") but it's pronounced as "atto" when dictated. So someone's email would be johnsmith-at-gmail-dot-com, and if you ask a Japanese person to pronounce the symbol, they would say "atto". However, if you show them the symbol and ask them _what it is_, they probably would say "attomaaku".

Semiotics is fascinating.

sramsay 2 days ago 1 reply      
Dating in Korea:

"Hey, really enjoyed talking to you! Can I have your email address?"

"Sure, it's john sea snail hotmail dot com."

"Oh. Great."

gabemart 2 days ago 1 reply      
>A pictogram, is an ideogram that conveys its meaning through its pictorial resemblance to a physical object.

By this definition, @ is not a pictogram just because it is named for a pictorial resemblance. It must convey meaning through that pictorial resemblance. A "monkey tail" or "elephant trunk" or "sea snail" does not convey the meaning of "at", unless I'm missing some cultural context.

, on the other hand, conveys the meaning of "tree" through visual representation of roots below the ground and branches on top [1].

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%9C%A8

ternaryoperator 2 days ago 1 reply      
"[chiocciola] is fun to say, too. Something like 'chee-o-cho-la' but with more exotic hand gestures."

The initial "chi" in Italian is pronounced like "kee" (e.g. chianti). So this would be pronounced "kee-o-chio-la"

gk1 3 days ago 4 replies      
I believe in Russian it's called "Sobachka", or "Doggy." (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
aristus 2 days ago 2 replies      
For a very long time, I thought the "{" was called "birdwing" because that's how it was explained to me. When I try that now I get very odd looks.

Related: http://carlos.bueno.org/brackets-of-the-world.pdf

kiliancs 2 days ago 2 replies      
In Catalan we call it arrova. It's interesting that, used as a unit of mass, the @ had different values in different places [1][2]:

- Castille: 11.5002325 kg

- Aragon: 12.5 kg

- Catalonia: 26 pounds

- Valencia: 30 pounds

- Portugal: 32 pounds

Apparently it's still used as a unit of measure in Spain and South America, for example for oranges [2] and cocaine [3].

[1] http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrova[2] http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arroba_%28unidad_de_masa%29[3] http://web.archive.org/web/20110101190636/http://www.delisse...

madeofpalk 2 days ago 1 reply      
When I worked in retail, I noticed Indian people would pronounce it something like 'attarrat', with a hard R in the middle.

It took me a while to catch on to what was ment by that, but i never really pushed it much further to get the 'proper' pronounciation.

camillomiller 2 days ago 0 replies      
I would have mentioned that the purported Latin origin of the symbol is much closer to the English way of saying it.Some historians believe that the @ symbol fist appeared as a contraption of the word "ad", which loosely means "towards". Scribes may have altered the word by exaggerating the upstroke of the d.So at least on twitter, "at" is pretty consistent with the original meaning of the symbol.
thought_alarm 2 days ago 4 replies      
I can think of a few English pictograms on the standard keyboard:

^ = Hat

* = Star

# = Hash

~ = Squiggle

{ = Curly

kosei 2 days ago 1 reply      
All I can think is how much longer it must be to speak tweets aloud in other languages. As opposed to "at Jim Lipsey, at Gruber, at Chockenberry, at The Talk Show", now it's "chee-o-cho-la Jim Lipsey, chee-o-cho-la Gruber..."

Sounds like a mouthful already.

jefftchan 2 days ago 0 replies      
In China, it's called "circle a" (a), "flowery a" (a), or "little mouse" (). In Taiwan, it's most commonly called "little mouse"
IgorPartola 2 days ago 0 replies      
I speak Russian as my first language. We use "sobaka" the Russian word for dog.
sbierwagen 2 days ago 0 replies      
Fun fact about HN's bad visual design: submissions with very short titles typically get huge amounts of upvotes as people try to click on the submission link, and hit the upvote button by accident. Since you can't revoke upvotes for dumb submissions, the number climbs without limit.
lozf 2 days ago 0 replies      
I'm currently in Kashmir where everyone always says in full "... at the rate of..." in the middle of their email address. So far I've not met many twitter users.
ggchappell 2 days ago 0 replies      
Both cute and interesting.

Note, however, that the article does not distinguish between what the sign is called, and how it is read. I call it an "at sign". I read it "at". Now, in Dutch it's called a monkey tail (said in Dutch, of course). But that may not be how it is read in Dutch.

wuaifeng 2 days ago 0 replies      
"I envy my colleagues that get to play with snails and monkeys while coding in Objective-C!"
ulber 2 days ago 0 replies      
In Finnish it is also informally known as "miukumauku", which refers to the cat-like appearance of the symbol (long tail). This name isn't very common anymore.
simplyinfinity 2 days ago 1 reply      
In Bulgaria this is called "Monkey" () or "Monkey A" ( ) i've also heard few people cal it "rose" ()
carlob 2 days ago 0 replies      
Technically in Italian: lumaca is slug and chiocciola is snail, but people often improperly use lumaca for snail as well.
mzs 2 days ago 0 replies      
I like commat from the prosign, it stems from its use in prices like 7 @ $4.

Also in Polish I encounter mapka (little or cute monkey) more than mapa (monkey), maybe that's a regional thing.

fla 2 days ago 0 replies      
Arobaz in French. But most people just say 'At'.
StavrosK 2 days ago 0 replies      
In Greek, we call it "papaki". It means "duckling". I have no idea how that happened.
4684499 2 days ago 0 replies      
This is what I've been told: " = wood, = woods, = forest". Quite intuitive. :)
junkri 2 days ago 0 replies      
In Hungary, we say "kukac", which means "worm" in english
noel82 2 days ago 0 replies      
Very interesting read. As italian, I agree with our "exotic" gestures which follow the spelling of email addresses when it comes to 'chiocciola' (@)
muyueh 2 days ago 0 replies      
In Taiwan it's "", which means "little mouse".
alexcp_ 2 days ago 2 replies      
We also say "Arobas" in french.
End-To-End OpenPGP Chrome extension from Google code.google.com
473 points by gbarboza  4 days ago   165 comments top 32
zx2c4 4 days ago 1 reply      
Notable aspects --

Looks like they're taking it seriously:

"Are End-To-End security bugs eligible for Googles Vulnerability Rewards Program?

Yes, we have specifically expanded the scope of our Vulnerability Rewards Program to include End-To-End. This means that reports of exploitable security bugs within End-To-End are eligible for a reward."

Should be an interesting trove of JS tricks:

"JavaScript crypto has very real risk of side-channel attacks

Since JavaScript code doesn't control the instructions being executed by the CPU the JavaScript engine can perform optimizations out of the codes control it creates the risk of security-sensitive information leaks.End-To-End requires user interaction for private operations in normal use, mitigating this risk. Non-user-interaction actions are rate-limited and done in fixed time. End-To-Ends crypto operations are performed in a different process from the web apps it interacts with.The End-To-End library is as timing-aware it can be and weve invested effort to mitigate any exploitable risk."

panarky 4 days ago 1 reply      
Regarding JavaScript crypto:

  We hold ourselves to a higher standard; we started from scratch  and created a testable, modern, cryptographic library.
That is awesome. So's this:

  Chromes design means that extensions should be safe against  other extensions.
And this:

  End-To-End uses Content Security Policy as well as inherently  safe APIs in frameworks (strict Closure Templates). End-To-End  doesnt trust any website's DOM or context with unencrypted data.

opendais 4 days ago 4 replies      
"Please note that enabling Chromes "Automatically send usage statistics and crash reports to Google" means that, in the event of a crash, parts of memory containing private key material might be sent to Google."

I hope that has more than a FAQ warning when they release it to the Chrome Store. Otherwise....:/

It isn't perfect but it is probably the best in-browser option given the constraints available.

tokenizerrr 4 days ago 4 replies      
Just tried this out and it works great! Had to build it using the instructions on the wiki, but nothing too painful. It doesn't just integrate with gmail, but more with all textarea's around the web. When you are typing in a textarea and press the extension icon next to the hamburger menu it will pop open a menu containing the text that you were typing on the site, and are given the options to encrypt/sign a message. When done it replaces the contents of the textarea on the site with the signed/encrypted message.

It works quite nicely, and I like it. I would like to see some kind of keybase integration, though it's not hard to import my tracked users into the extension by exporting my gpg keyring and importing it again.

edit: It seems that the keybase website does not like messages created by this extension. https://github.com/keybase/keybase-issues/issues/752

dfc 4 days ago 4 replies      
The FAQ states:

  > Only the body of the message. Please note that, as with all OpenPGP  > messages, the email subject line and list of recipients remain   > unencrypted.
Hopefully attachments are considered part of the body?

makomk 4 days ago 2 replies      
"Please note that EC support was added to GnuPG 2.1 beta in 2010, but it hasnt been released as a stable version yet. To communicate with other people that don't use End-To-End, you will need to either generate a key in GnuPG and then import it, or build GnuPG 2.1 yourself."

So basically, out the box this doesn't interoperate well with non-beta versions of GnuPG which are what everyone else is using for end-to-end e-mail encryption. That's annoying.

unbehagen 4 days ago 2 replies      
If it is a chrome extension and is installed via the Chrome Web Store, it can be updated silently in the background if I'm not mistaken. So in theory, wouldn't it be possible to serve Google with a NSL and force them to silently push a modified update to a targeted user that reveals the private key?
DoubleMalt 4 days ago 2 replies      
This is really great news. But even better would it be if they'd incorporate it directly in gmail with a polished user interface.
riquito 4 days ago 0 replies      
There are javascript implementations of aes, cbc, pkcs7 and more, all released with Apache 2.0 license. If the quality is what you'd expect from Google they could become valid alternatives to the other implementations out there.
nilved 4 days ago 7 replies      
Isn't this contrary to Google's goals as an advertising business? If people are using end-to-end encryption, they won't have cleartext emails to mine, &c. I need to wonder what the catch is, because there is definitely one: does Google own all the keys, or does Google secretly own all the keys?
spacefight 4 days ago 0 replies      
This is a push in a great direction. I really do hope it catches on and will leave to more and more users adopting strong crypto on all ends. One can hope...
thomasahle 4 days ago 1 reply      
With the risk of sounding fanboy, this is really fantastic! This could actually be a viable, secure answer to mail encryption.

And this is aawesome too: "we have specifically expanded the scope of our Vulnerability Rewards Program to include End-To-End. This means that reports of exploitable security bugs within End-To-End are eligible for a reward."

mindstab 4 days ago 0 replies      
Eleanor Saitta (@Dymaxion) had a few things to say about this on Twitter:

On the one hand, I'm happy Google is trying to make GPG usable within GMail: https://code.google.com/p/end-to-end/ . On the other hand, this leaves many ?sIt sounds like all you get from "end-to-end", other than a name that's going to cause horrible confusion, is a bare mininum of GPG functions.No TOFU, no pushing users to encrypt by default, no better management of keys, no attempt to stop metadata surveillance.It's good GMail users will have an easier time with GPG, but if it keeps them on a broken-by-architecture centralized service, we all lose.This doesn't seem to go far enough in making crypto usable (no indexing solution, for instance) but it will slow development of alternatives.I admit Google is kind of in a bind here - if they want to help GMail users, they're also necessarily slowing the evolution of a safe net.Mostly I wish they hadn't called it "end-to-end". Because, you know, words mean things, and like "Off the record", that means something else.I'm surprised Google weren't willing to spend the internal security resources on end-to-end to be able to stand behind it at time of release.All told, it pretty much smells like "keep engineers happy" + "win points with the net freedom community as cheaply as possible."Google, if they wanted to, could do some pretty revolutionary stuff in the secure comms space, but that would cost actual cash.Ssh, no one wants to talk about how Silicon Valley business models depend on surveillance.


plg 3 days ago 0 replies      
Kudos to them for doing it even though it goes directly against their business model (mining your information). I guess they're betting that the vast majority of people won't use this.
drdaeman 3 days ago 0 replies      
Nice. While they're at it, maybe they'll revive gpgAuth, so maybe we'll eventually have a sane and useable PKI-based auth on the web?

Oh, and maybe having PGP's WOT for use by the websites would be nice too. Could provide distributed "likes" by PGP-signing, without any central authorities.

e12e 4 days ago 0 replies      
Between all the build tools that are available -- one would think that'd they'd been able to settle on one (or at least supply a shell script) rather than having us cut and paste?


Still, that aside, really exited about this project.

Disappointed with the secondary support for RSA/DSA (ie: pretty much all existing keys) -- sadly Google never were very good at interop with others :-/

As I understand it, everyone not using this/gmail now have the option of not being able to communicate securely with the people that start using this; or running unsupported versions of GnuPG :-/ (Or trying to explain how to securely generate, export and import RSA/DSA keys into end-to-end -- somewhat defeating the whole usability benefit...)

dave1010uk 3 days ago 0 replies      
This is Open Source and will get lots of peer review. Chrome isn't.

Is there any security advantage in End-to-End bring Open Source when Chrome isn't? To assume this is secure, you have to trust Google's software isn't vulnerable or compromised in any way.

Note: I guess this extension will run on Chromium too, which is Open Source.

mike-cardwell 3 days ago 2 replies      
Can anyone tell if this addon has been built in a suitably abstract enough manner such that the core can be used to build similar extensions for other browsers? I.e, would it be possible to take this code and wrap it in a Firefox extension?
1345 4 days ago 1 reply      
Unless I'm mistaken, the author appears to be implementing OpenPGP in javascript. This has already been done by OpenPGP.js. That project is several years old, is active, and has been independently audited.

Is this simply reinventing the wheel? OpenPGP.js can easily be used in an arbitrary browser extension.

I have no affiliation with the OpenPGP.js project besides working on a small project for personal use.

mentat 3 days ago 0 replies      
A current real alternative that uses native binaries to avoid the JS issues is WebPG[1]. I've been using it for about a year and while it has its rough edges, it's a pretty solid tool (and approach).

1. https://webpg.org/

tigerweeds 4 days ago 0 replies      
how is this different from Mailvelope?
josephby 4 days ago 1 reply      
Someone should try using it with this: http://sicomail.com; automatically encrypts all of your incoming email.
adrianlmm 4 days ago 3 replies      
What about search and indexing?

Will GMail be able to find those encrypted e-mails when I search for them?

mox1 3 days ago 0 replies      
I worked at a company who has a very similar product,


cvwright 4 days ago 0 replies      
Very cool! I'm assuming this is not just for sending PGP mail, but also for decrypting PGP-encrypted mail that the user receives.

Has anyone been able to tell how they protect against the server grabbing the plaintext after it's been decrypted?

diasp 3 days ago 0 replies      
Take a look at http://openpgpjs.org/ OpenPGP JavaScript Implementation.
haarts 3 days ago 0 replies      
If you want to build the extension and your aliases don't work add "shopt -s expand_aliases" to the compile.sh file.
zobzu 3 days ago 0 replies      
itd be cool to have this like http://www.monkeysphere.info/ between browser and server, and not rely on CAs.
donniezazen 3 days ago 1 reply      
What is the difference between GnuPG and OpenPGP?
higherpurpose 4 days ago 1 reply      
It doesn't support only NIST curves, does it?
moeedm 4 days ago 0 replies      
Encryption. Google. Okay.

No thanks.

dotBen 4 days ago 1 reply      
So End-To-End utilizes Elliptic Curve-based keys

Could someone better across current cryptographic trends than I comment on that choice? We know the NSA has found weaknesses in certain implementations of elliptic-curve based cryptography in the past, and I was under the impression there was a preference in the community to move away from them in general given the unknown extent of the integrity concerns.

Micro Python a lean and efficient implementation of Python 3 python.org
439 points by maxerickson  4 days ago   93 comments top 24
ngoldbaum 4 days ago 5 replies      
It was just pointed out to me that micropython starts an order of magnitude faster than both python2 and python3:

    $ time ./micropython -c 'print(1)'     1    ./micropython -c 'print(1)'  0.00s user 0.00s system 0% cpu 0.002 total        $ time ./python2 -c 'print(1)'    1    python2 -c 'print(1)'  0.01s user 0.00s system 52% cpu 0.019 total    $ time ./python3 -c 'print(1)'    1    python3 -c 'print(1)'  0.03s user 0.00s system 85% cpu 0.035 total

michaelhoffman 4 days ago 3 replies      
> Supports almost full Python 3 syntax, including yield (compiles 99.99% of the Python 3 standard library).

What parts of Python 3 syntax are missing? Which parts of the library don't compile?

thomasahle 4 days ago 1 reply      
It always strikes me, that the things that parts of python that create problems for people trying to optimize it, are all things of relatively small importance. Like __new__, __del__ semantics and changing the stack by inspection. I wish Python3 had just let go of the slow scripting-only parts.
stinos 4 days ago 1 reply      
Slowly gaining traction it seems. Has been posted before without even getting comments (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6763123) and then some comments (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6996692) but already has more points now :]
knappador 4 days ago 0 replies      
Attn: Kivy can really use this for mobile deployements, but we use Cython and almost everyone needs cpython C modules. We need to investigate making drop-in replacements for Python.h and other cpython headers to stub out reference counting etc, which micro-python doesn't use. The compiler will just skip the calls entirely in some cases.

If these drop-in replacements are technically feasible, not only does Cython magically work, but so does a lot of the Python ecosystem. There's probably more work to get linking and other aspects working, but this might also be a model for moving to alternative Python implementations in general. As long as straight Python "just works" and the headers are available for compiling C modules, we're very close to having a sensible alternative to cpython that can grow without being wedded to it.

Please comment on technical requirements. Issue opened here:https://github.com/micropython/micropython/issues/658

meepmorp 4 days ago 1 reply      
The project's website, from the linked post:


Apparently, there's a kickstarter for a dev board that runs this version of python. Looks interesting.

ethanpil 4 days ago 2 replies      
WOW!! I see this as a serious competitor to Lua. I think lua because so popular because of its small footprint and easy embedability... Perhaps this is the first step to a Python revolution...

I expect to see a lot of interesting devices and software embedding Micro Python.

justincormack 4 days ago 0 replies      
There is a talk about it here from a few weeks ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmGISrwPtyA
ionforce 4 days ago 5 replies      
Does it strike anyone else as odd that garbage collection is used in such a resource constrained environment?

Also tangent question, what is it about languages like Python and Ruby that make it more amenable to reimplementation than Perl?

andybak 4 days ago 4 replies      
Is this a route to a good Python stack for mobile?

Any interest from the Kivy team or related projects?

dekhn 4 days ago 0 replies      
This is pretty neat, I'm gaining an appreciate for microcontrollers and using high level languages is attractive.

That said, the alternative I'm exploring is to upload a standard Firmata firmware to the microcontroller, then drive it remotely, say from python on a full computer (like raspberry pi).

i think the interestng area comes when you can actually put a fairly "smart" microcontroller firmware on the device (GRBL) and then program it remotely, say with a scripting language. At that point, the boundaries between a firmware that is a dvice controller, and a firmware that is an open-ended remotely drivable VM starts to break down. Interesting area.

thearn4 4 days ago 1 reply      
Just got my board (kickstarter backer). Can't wait to take a few hours to play with it!
daGrevis 4 days ago 1 reply      
If someone is wondering what's going on with unicode support:

> No unicode support is actually implemented. Python3 calls for strict difference between str and bytes data types (unlike Python2, which has neutral unified data type for strings and binary data, and separates out unicode data type). MicroPython faithfully implements str/bytes separation, but currently, underlying str implementation is the same as bytes. This means strings in MicroPython are not unicode, but 8-bit characters (fully binary-clean).

ant_sz 4 days ago 0 replies      
This project provide a so-called pyboard. It is interesting!The board's design can be found here https://github.com/micropython/pyboard
rectangletangle 4 days ago 1 reply      
Anyone know the "scale" of this re-implementation? Is it simply a fork of CPython with some performance tweaks, or is it a primarily new code-base? Regardless it's pretty cool.
ashish01 4 days ago 1 reply      
Is there a way to try it on windows ?
kelvin0 4 days ago 0 replies      
I am truly very happy that he was able to fund this cool project. The funding went very well it seems, more more than 6x the initial proposed funding!

I might just quit my job and do something similar!

ForHackernews 4 days ago 5 replies      
This is pretty cool. Could it run on something like an Arduino?
sandGorgon 4 days ago 0 replies      
we use a lot of python on the windows platform - especially the win32 and multiprocessing modules. Would love a variant of micropython on windows that can support them.

There a large number of embedded Windows CE devices that run in retail.

lerouxb 4 days ago 0 replies      
So upset that I missed this kickstarter. I've been obsessively refreshing the homepage to see if I can buy a micropython board yet.
neil_s 4 days ago 3 replies      
Nice! How much of this optimization can be ported back to CPython, keeping compatibility but improving memory usage and speed?
lacion 4 days ago 0 replies      
i got one of the dev boards like a month ago, i was part of the kickstarter.

this thing is amazing, it took me a week to stop using arduino.

zobzu 3 days ago 0 replies      
any benchmark vs cpython avail? (not startup speed). just curious.
brassattax 4 days ago 0 replies      
Anyone else read that as "Monty Python"?
OS X Yosemite apple.com
432 points by salimmadjd  5 days ago   292 comments top 52
AaronFriel 5 days ago 9 replies      
I am deeply disappointed by the "development" of OS X. It seems that Apple has long ago gutted their x86 OS group due to dwindling profits and lack of real competition. There are a handful of reasons people buy a Mac, and I would largely put them into three groups:

* Students looking for a stable and/or sexy device for their university.

* Artists using applications that don't exist on other platforms (or that prioritize Mac platforms).

* Hackers that want a Unix-like system with a BSD userland, or want Anything But Windows on a laptop.

Sadly, these groups are small groups with eclectic needs that won't be met or improved by real systems engineering with the kernel and core modules. What do I mean by real systems engineering?

* Major kernel development

* Novel and/or modern filesystem support

* Fundamental or deeply integrated "platform" features

In Linux land, every major kernel release brings these features. There are tangible improvements to filesystems, to core features that enable new things to be developed on top of them in every Linux release. These are, largely, absent on OS X. The system is too closed, and the result is that things like Time Machine or even security features and ACLs are hacks upon hacks. Full disk encryption and home folder support is, again, hack-ish, and largely built on work other people did. OS snapshots is essentially an "rsync" to another drive with a smart "restore" utility that repairs changes.

The major kernel development that Microsoft undertook with Windows Server 2003 and Vista is still paying dividends. Folder shadow copies became integrated into fully consistent backups with built-in snapshots. Full disk encryption improved - though home folder encryption is still tragically stuck with NTFS "EFS" support (lackluster, at best.) UAC, AppLocker, and integrity levels brought foundational improvements to the security model. Networking stack changes brought DirectAccess, a woefully underused and under-marketed technology. Storage Spaces and ReFS, though years too late, are interesting alternatives to ZFS/BTRFS. Transactional NTFS was woefully underused, but maybe it will return with ReFS. The core improvements Microsoft is making to the NT kernel are still worthwhile, though. Hyper-V is a fantastic technology, and could really blow people's minds when it's baked into the client OS. (For reference, Hyper-V powers the Xbox One's dual app/game personality. It allows isolating the management OS from games running on it, and also keeps the management OS from interfering with game performance with resource limiting. And they both share high performance access to the GPU.) Ah, I could go on. Reading about new stuff in kernel development is a joy.

Of course, I could go on ad nauseum about Linux changes since 3.0x, but http://kernelnewbies.org/ does a better job than I will.

The result is tragic: Microsoft invested in platform features and then didn't sell users on what it could do with Vista. Apple continues to apply lipstick to the OS X pig and sell users on changes to the window manager and built-in applications.

rayiner 5 days ago 6 replies      
HandOff is the kind of thing I'm surprised took so long. Honestly, I was expecting MS to get something like it first. After all, your Windows Phone already runs Windows, right?
bratsche 5 days ago 1 reply      
Since nobody has mentioned it yet here, I'm really glad to see AirDrop will finally work between OSX and iOS. It's bothered me for awhile that they have these two different things called "AirDrop" which were not compatible with one another.
bane 5 days ago 1 reply      
I'm really looking forward to this. Unlike iOS7, the flatter design here doesn't make me feel like a bunch of amateur artists got a hold of a free copy of Adobe Illustrator. I actually like the new look quite a bit. Now, to pray that they've made some under the hood progress on multi-monitor support.

Moving work back and forth from desktop to mobile also sounds really amazing. I get a hint of it when working with gmail or drive, but this sounds much more deeply integrated. Google will have to respond, and this makes me happy.

dfc 5 days ago 5 replies      

  > With this new design, OS X...now looks a bit more like iOS 7, but  > there is still quite a bit of depth. Indeed, more than flat, the  > design almost seems to focus more on translucency than anything else.
The above is an incomprehensible collection of words to me. I am not sure if this is because of my lack of an intimate connection to Apple products, terrible writing or some combination of the two.

eurleif 5 days ago 5 replies      
Which parts of the front window in this screenshot[0] are draggable? Maybe this is just me, but I don't like how the titlebar and window contents are visually merged.

[0] https://www.apple.com/osx/preview/images/overview_design_her...

thisisdallas 5 days ago 1 reply      
I honestly don't understand this design direction. I know it's nice to have a change but from the few screens I have seen on the Verge it looks like something that came from one of those "I redesigned OS X" blog posts.
quackerhacker 5 days ago 5 replies      
The upgrades to Safari look amazing! [0] Less chrome, Javascript benchmarks (impressive), and the spotlight search in the url...nice! I hope Apple changes the zoom button to maximize the screen.

[0] https://www.apple.com/osx/preview/apps/

buckbova 5 days ago 3 replies      
> Apple has done away with the faux-3D shelf look here and has put the icons on a simple translucent background instead.

I like the faux 3d dock . . . it'd be nice if this was configurable.

davis_m 5 days ago 3 replies      
Spotlight seems an awful lot like Alfred now. http://www.alfredapp.com/
currysausage 5 days ago 4 replies      
Am I the only one here who hates to see Lucida Grande be replaced with Neue Helvetica Aslightaspossible?

Eager to see how it looks on non-retina displays.

klrr 5 days ago 1 reply      
Those bars looks surprisingly close to GNOMEs' ones.
scrumper 5 days ago 1 reply      
Not a great article: new features trumpeted include Spotlight's ability to search for mail messages and contacts, and a Private Browsing mode for Spotlight - both of which are pretty long-standing features.

These things tend to get rushed out, but maybe TC could have waited just a few more minutes to weed out the obvious stinkers.

J-H 5 days ago 1 reply      
Really like the new design, but I think the coolest new thing is HandOff. The new Spotlight search is cool, too.
jordigh 5 days ago 8 replies      
So... Oh Ess Ten Ten Point Ten? Is that how it's pronounced? I suppose it's better than OS X X.X.
morbius 5 days ago 4 replies      
Widgets, translucency, and animations...

So... OS X 10.10 is... Windows Vista with Aero Glass?


aneisf 5 days ago 1 reply      
The dark UI option is a nice touch.
crymer11 4 days ago 2 replies      
Hopefully they've spent some time on Messages; it's by far the buggiest app of theirs I've used in quite some time.
crag 4 days ago 1 reply      
I'd be happy if they fixed Mail's connection to Exchange (drops randomly - a know issue), or the terribly slow SMB - mounting Windows drives is just a nightmare. There is a fix, more like a hack really, forcing the OS to use an earlier version of SMB.

Fix those two and I'm there.

DAddYE 4 days ago 0 replies      
For those interested, the translucent effect can be disabled in Accessibility flagging "reduce transparency".
cosmc 5 days ago 1 reply      
I'm not a fan of the flat design personally, but the redesign is pretty sharp. I like the minimal safari UI; its nice when the browser lets the webpage be main focus and I think it is something Safari does best.
dev1n 5 days ago 6 replies      
If possible, could someone from the Apple community please tell me if Yosemite will be faster / lighter than snow leopard? I don't want an OS that requires 8 gigs of ram to run "fast" like Mavericks requires.
allan_ 4 days ago 0 replies      
As seen on a the screenshot for the new notification center calendar, the Life of an Apple user begins at 10:00 with a crossfit session. After that it is not that you go to work then. Relaxing talk with Anne on the phone, maybe talking a little business on the side, but not to rough. After Lunch you do not start to work either. Just let out all those wise thoughts gathered while living your apple lifestyle in a fresh stream, like you do.
sgt 5 days ago 0 replies      
OS X Yosemite - call me impressed.

Favorite features: HandOff, phone calling feature, Markup, Safari improvements... Oh yes, and AirDrop now working between OS X and iOS. At last.

ambler0 5 days ago 1 reply      
Does anyone have a link to a screen shot of the new "dark mode"? If I've seen it, I didn't notice it.
ssivark 4 days ago 1 reply      
Wait... is it just me, or do the apps and window designs look very much like Gnome3 (circa 3.12)???

Compare pictures:1. https://www.apple.com/osx/preview/apps/2. https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/Apps/ Web, Chat, Mail, etc.)

sdfjkl 5 days ago 2 replies      
I just hope there's a setting to turn off all this translunacy[sp!].
jevgeni 5 days ago 2 replies      
This is awesome, but can we talk about the very scary looking folder icons?
andy_ppp 5 days ago 0 replies      
My wish list is per project spaces, such that:

1) a copy of mail, tasks, text editor/IDE, preview etc. Can all be opened that are specific to a project/space, say.

2) Multiple copies of apps filtered by their project

3) mail only shows emails about/from/in association with the current project

4) preview/photoshop shows project assets, these are shared in the ether via iCloud, you can see designers working on things in realtime

5) I switch spaces and they are all saved/restorable after reboot

6) developer Apis for this!

Wishful thinking I guess :-)

iwasakabukiman 5 days ago 1 reply      
I wonder how legacy apps will look? I'm assuming it will work the same was as iOS 6 apps do on iOS 7, where they just run the same as they did before and look like older apps.

That's going to be a confusing transition. Although it might shame app developers into updating their apps.

nazca 5 days ago 3 replies      
I don't care about flat or transparent. I just hope they effing fix windowing and multi-monitor support. +` is ridiculously buggy.
homulilly 5 days ago 0 replies      
I know it's hardly the most important thing in an operating system but god that looks ugly. This dumb flat fad cannot end soon enough. I hope mavericks get security updates for awhile because I don't have plans to upgrade.
purephase 4 days ago 0 replies      
Folks using vmware fusion be warned, it does not work with Yosemite.
ksk 4 days ago 0 replies      
The Handoff feature is interesting. I hope its not just some lame cloud sync that takes ages to sync because your 3G/wifi is spotty. For e.g. If I was writing an email in Mail.app I'd want to be able to shut my mac and resume writing on my iphone exactly where I left off. Same with Safari and other shared apps.
joeblau 5 days ago 1 reply      
How do you enable dark mode? I'm on 10.10 and I can't find it anywhere.
forgetcolor 5 days ago 1 reply      
translucency is the new glossy screen---it looks cool at first, but in practice makes what youre looking at harder to see
300 4 days ago 1 reply      
Again, I came to the same conclusion like many times before. Apple does have the best hardware (talking about notebooks), but that's where the story ends.

I found a combination of MacBook Pro with Linux, as the only good use of Apple hardware.

oneweirdtrick 5 days ago 0 replies      
Will the syncing of Mac and iOS have a significant impact on the battery life of the iPhone? I noticed MightyText takes up significant energy on my Nexus 5.
bronson 5 days ago 1 reply      
Ye gods, is this the end of Chicago?
EGreg 5 days ago 0 replies      
Yep, Apple still hasn't learned that iOS Flat is Apple's Vista. Windows users used Vista DESPITE aero not because of it. So now they added it to Mac. If I can keep from upgrading, I will.
easydev 5 days ago 0 replies      
Hopfully it will be more stable than os x mavericks
janvidar 5 days ago 1 reply      
Yosemite? This doesn't sound feline!
gnmj 5 days ago 2 replies      
So basically it is catching up with Windows 8.
bitL 5 days ago 1 reply      
The race of the uglies - OS X Yosemite vs Windows 8.1 - is on! :-D
rsync 5 days ago 1 reply      
Ironic that the official apple page for Yosemite shows it running a macbook air, which hasn't seen a cosmetic or design update in ... 6 years ? 2009 was when they removed the physical mouse button...
nodata 5 days ago 0 replies      
Yawn Come on Apple, you can do better. Innovate!
ChikkaChiChi 5 days ago 0 replies      
In 2 years when they announce iOS X (10), I expect that will be when apps can only be loaded from the App Store and their vertical integration will be complete.
spacemanmatt 5 days ago 0 replies      
I hope they will be offering a cosmetic repair to this fugly monster. I already miss Mavericks AND I'M STILL RUNNING IT.
cliveowen 5 days ago 1 reply      
I think the iOS 7 design looks like a joke, but I'm nonetheless happy they're changing OS X, it needed a renovation.
mkohlmyr 4 days ago 0 replies      
Is the name a subtle reference to how its going to blow? I'll see myself out.

I'm sure it will be extremely solid, it looks really nice. For me I'll stick with linux / linux vms, though.

moe 5 days ago 3 replies      
I wish Apple would spend their resources on finally fixing some of the most broken fundamentals (photo sync, notifications, finder...), rather than letting Ive further trash the GUI and celebrating that as some sort of accomplishment...
Netflix replies to Verizon cease and desist letter cnbc.com
409 points by hornokplease  2 days ago   346 comments top 47
Arjuna 2 days ago 6 replies      
Awesome response to the C&D, via spokesman Jonathan Friedland:

"This is about consumers not getting what they paid for from their broadband provider. We are trying to provide more transparency, just like we do with the ISP Speed Index, and Verizon is trying to shut down that discussion."

Karunamon 2 days ago 5 replies      
This is a genius move. It's exactly what needs to happen to get consumers to realize that it's their ISP fucking them over, not Netflix.

The average joe isn't outraged enough about net neutrality. If only they'd start doing this to other known bad actors coughcomcastcough, that might just be what the doctor ordered.

I wonder why they ponied up the money to the protection rackets first, and only then started pointing fingers. Maybe the agreement gave them access to some better data? If not, this should have been done months ago!

By the way, don't bother with the comments on the article page unless you want to lose all faith in humanity :(

dlgeek 2 days ago 0 replies      
I feel like Verizon's treading VERY dangerous waters here. If they sue Netflix for libel over this, then they're going to have to go through discovery. Since the claims center around network congestion, that means it'd be fair game for Netflix to go after every scrap of paper they have about the state of their internal network, oversubscription strategies, data about advertised vs. actual customer performance, any history of traffic shaping, and they'd be able to depose employees about all of these things.

As much as I'd love to see all of that information come to light in a court battle, somehow, I don't think Verizon would...

ChuckMcM 2 days ago 2 replies      
Wow, what a stupid move on Verizon's part. I have to believe the Streisand effects will far and away outpace any remedial action they might try to achieve here. While I get that they are irritated by their customers calling them up knowing more about how broken their network is, than the tech answering the phone, but this is going to be the new reality. With Google, Netflix, and no doubt Amazon providing more information to their customers about exactly why their product is having issues.
mox1 2 days ago 3 replies      
It's frustrating that Verizon and friends can make grandiose statements in their advertising about "unlimited bandwidth", "faster wifi" ,"stream 5 things at a time", etc, etc. Or lie to customers, My mother just called Comcast to downgrade her service and the CS Rep said "WiFi won't work with our Economy Plus internet plan"

Yet when another entity does something as simple as showing an error message that casts them in a negative light, they are willing and able to threaten legal action.

They stretch the truth as far as they can, yet give not an inch when confronted with truths they don't like.

Remove government so we can add customers! But we need government so we can slap Nextflix when they say something we don't like!

I don't have a good answer how to fix it, it's just very plain to see, and frustrating.

addflip 2 days ago 4 replies      
Verizon fios customer here. There has been a noticeable drop in the quality of streams in the past couple of months. The picture went from excellent > barely functional(after the FCC ruling) > watchable(after the peering agreement) still not great. Kudos to Netflix.
Osiris 2 days ago 0 replies      
I believe that the solution is forcibly separate infrastructure from service. The same company that provides the infrastructure should not be the same company that provides the service to the customer.

There are several nations around the world where this is the case. It reduces the barriers to entry for ISPs, creating an environment where there are dozens of ISPs to choose from with differing levels of customer service and pricing plans.

The primary problem with Comcast and Verizon is that they can leverage their customer base as a negotiation tactic rather than solely on the state of the network.

noonespecial 2 days ago 1 reply      
Two ugly chickens are coming home to roost here.

1) ISP's insisted on selling home bandwidth as functionally unlimited. They did this primarily so they would only have to offer expensive plans. Grandma can't get the 300meg email plan for $8, only the $80 plan. And then everybody tried to use it like it really was unlimited.

2) DRM. Drm makes it so that the net can't cache. 90% of netfilx bandwidth is likely the same 10% of videos. They all have to make the full trip through the wires. A local cache at the ISP to improve efficiency is impossible.

danesparza 2 days ago 0 replies      
In the cease and desist, the Verizon's lawyers allege that Netflix can't possibly know if the network slow-down is coming from Verizon's network or other parts of the internet. I actually chuckled when I read this -- because after reading Netflix Tech blog (here: http://techblog.netflix.com/ ) and seeing Netflix's open source contributions (here: https://github.com/Netflix) I have a feeling Netflix probably has a LOT of data to back up these assertions.
ianamartin 2 days ago 1 reply      
I love what Netflix is doing with this. Not so much because I am totally convinced that they are 100% right and the Cable companies are 100% wrong.

Mostly just because I 100% hate all the cable companies.

infogulch 2 days ago 1 reply      
How do we get ISPs classified as common carriers?

Sue their pants off for the copyright infringement of their customers (and all the other illegal things customers can do). This why common carriers exist. They trade ultimate control over the transfer of content and treat it equally for the protections of being indemnified from the content itself. This is why the U.S. Postal Service can't be prosecuted for transporting a death threat letter. Make it about money and they'll jump on the common carrier bandwagon before you can blink.

jusben1369 2 days ago 1 reply      
It doesn't state it anywhere but I assume Netflix can be pretty sure of where the bottleneck is happening before transmitting that message correct? Given all the other factors that can contribute to a slow down.
theandrewbailey 2 days ago 0 replies      
Netflix is angry because Verizon isn't giving Netflix the bandwidth that Netflix paid for[0]. Netflix should ignore this C&D on free speech grounds, and tell Verizon to get lost, because corporations are people[0] and have free speech.

[0] I wish I was joking about that.

sologoub 2 days ago 5 replies      
Anyone have a screenshot of what the error message actually says?
lbcadden3 2 days ago 1 reply      
Netflix is paying someone for their traffic. Verizon customers are paying for broadband which includes streaming movies.

The ISP need to quit whining. They need to quit trying to get laws passed in every state that keep competition out.

Verizon 2014 1st quarter.$30.8 billion revenue$7.2 billion operating incomehttp://www.verizon.com/investor/news_verizon_reports_fifth_c...

no sympathy

click170 2 days ago 0 replies      
1) Why are ISPs not classified as Common Carriers? This needs to happen like now.

2) This makes me want to get a Netflix subscription just to support them, knowing I would never watch a single video from them. I'm signing up right now. Go Netflix!

aresant 2 days ago 2 replies      
otterley 1 day ago 0 replies      
jeremycole 2 days ago 1 reply      
There is an easy and practical solution to this whole problem: If Verizon doesn't like the amount of bandwidth their customers use watching Netflix, they can always choose to block Netflix completely on their network, and inform their customers that they've done so. It would be honest, clean, fair, etc. Customers would be paying for exactly what they are getting, everyone could be happy with the arrangement.

Of course there would be a massive revolt of their customers if they did so. Because their customers WANT Netflix. So instead, Verizon will try very hard to make it "sorta" work and blame Netflix while trying to get money from them.

bambax 2 days ago 2 replies      
What is the point of Verizon sending such a letter?

Do they think Netflix will comply? "Oh Jeez we hadn't thought this through but now with this letter and all, we understand! We'll just start blaming our own servers instead. Thanks."

Or is it simply a necessary step before they sue? But if they sue, isn't it likely they'll lose? (Sue over what anyway?)

nsxwolf 2 days ago 0 replies      
Maybe Verizon would prefer the more accurate "Verizon is deliberately slowing down your Netflix experience."
martin_bech 2 days ago 7 replies      
Error message should include links to better ISPs in your area.
anoncow 2 days ago 1 reply      
Someone please clarify my doubts. When I run a server, I have to pay for bandwidth costs. For eg. My website hosted on linode gets me 20TB of data transfer limit. I expect end users to be able to view content worth 20 tb of up/down data transfer. Netflix runs its own servers but the ISP providing connectivity must be already charging Netflix for a certain bandwidth and data transfer limit. If the ISP is charging for data transfer already, I expect the ISP to provide the entire service. For eg. Let us assume that Verizon charges netflix 1 usd per tb of data transfer. And Netflix uses 20000tb of data in a month. Then Netflix owes Verizon 20000 usd a month. And Verizon has to serve the data according to the bandwidth agreed to.

Is Netflix not paying Verizon for the bandwidth and data transfer?

If Netflix is not paying Verizon then why does my hosting provider charge me for bandwidth and data transfer?

dkhenry 2 days ago 0 replies      
This seems very naive on VZW's part its extremely easy to show that there is congestion at the ingress of one of your peers. Even if VZW is not a direct peer its pretty easy for them to get metrics off their clients deployed at the last hop.
jostmey 2 days ago 1 reply      
Whatever happened to the right to free speech? There are of course restrictions to free speech, such as you cannot yell fire in a crowded building unless there really is a fire, but this is not one of those scenarios. The behavior of Verizon and the other ISPs are grossly offensive!
NoPiece 2 days ago 0 replies      
I support this in principle, but I would bet a good portion of the buffering that happens for Verizon customers is due to issues with their own wifi network.
beedogs 1 day ago 0 replies      
It's funny that Verizon thinks Netflix is damaging the Verizon brand. As if there's anything more they could do to lower people's opinions of Verizon.
8ig8 2 days ago 0 replies      
Hopefully YouTube will follow the lead.
logn 2 days ago 1 reply      
> "So Netflix is throwing up a 'The AT&T network is crowded right now' message. Meanwhile, Youtube is playing 1080p no problem."

Netflix should try to explain that in the error messages too.

knodi 2 days ago 0 replies      
I love it. Fuck you Verizon/Comcast/AT&T.
rohunati 2 days ago 0 replies      
Thank you Netflix for telling Verizon to go fuck themselves.
sadris 2 days ago 0 replies      
Netflix should also be including the phone numbers of city council members in the zip code of the account owner, and a link to example legislation for use of eminent domain seizure on last-mile cables.
hugolm84 2 days ago 0 replies      
Im sure most of the internet providers cap their bandwidth to services like this. I am confident that the main Swedish ISP provider Telia is capping as we speak.

I can see that ping times increases and it's always reoccurring around 9-10pm Fridays. Around 9:30 buffering speeds up, meaning most of the people giving up and switching to regular TV. One could argue that this is the time that Netflix/Youtube/Hbo/ViaPlay or any other service is used the most, but my suspicion is that capping occurs at those times, to validate the Fastlane/slowlane argument when the it arrives here in Sweden too.

I am currently collecting statistics to validate this. However, its insane that a ISP can cap and provide lesser service's on certain ports and argue that the fault is at the entertainment provider. Its also insane that when going from a "torrent way of life" to becoming a paying stream customer, I cant even watch my favourite show, when i want, on 100/100Mbit line.

ISP's are in the business of providing fast connections and high bandwidth, and that's what I'm paying for, however I want to use it. It shouldn't matter if I'm streaming from YouTube or downloaded illegal porn. Though it seems it looks like they want to sell me bad gasoline that doesn't take me anywhere, and say my engine is at fault.

kunjanshah 2 days ago 0 replies      
I wonder why ATT didn't C & D Netflix as well? Netflix had that notice for ATT too, just like Verizon. AT & T screenshot from a few days ago: https://twitter.com/kunjanshah/status/473152026147557376
bhartzer 2 days ago 2 replies      
I'm on CenturyLink DSL and they don't show that message for me when there are speed issues... they apparently only show it to Verizon customers?
thepumpkin1979 2 days ago 0 replies      
I thought they were paying fees to Verizon.
tikumo 2 days ago 2 replies      
Netflix could also make their buffering settings more advanced. i want a bigger buffer if my internet is unstable, and it should be transparant how netflix buffers..
leccine 2 days ago 0 replies      
Well I think we should introduce a tax on commuters because as it turns out they are the 90% of the highway traffic.If they want to get to work on time they can use the fast lane for a little extra and if they don't pay we just make them drive 10 miles per hour. I think this is fair. Ohh btw. if they complain about it, it is just them trying to influence policy that was set by good corporations so I don't understand why we should change it. :)

(please look up irony on wikipedia before downvote, thanks)

ctdonath 2 days ago 0 replies      
Streisand Effect.
Alupis 2 days ago 0 replies      
Wow, Verizon... dumb move.
spacefight 2 days ago 0 replies      
The heat is on!
chris_mahan 2 days ago 0 replies      
Awww, poor Verizon...
Aloisius 2 days ago 0 replies      
Is Verizon actively slowing the connection to Netflix.com itself or is the connection between Verizon and Netflix's provider (Cogent?) simply limited? In other words, are all Cogent customers suffering poor performance with Verizon customers?

Because the former is wrong and demanding more money from a single company hosted on a service provider you have specific peering agreements with is extortion.

The latter however, well, no one said there were unlimited pipes between every transit provider on the planet and if you're someone large like Netflix, sometimes you need to pay for transit on more than one provider to get the performance you need when your own provider can't or won't do so themselves. It has been like that for decades.

wmf 2 days ago 1 reply      
Netflix may be reaping what they have sown here. They agreed to buy paid peering from Verizon, so if they don't have enough capacity into Verizon the onus is on them to buy more. OTOH if there is some kind of problem inside Verizon then the error message is justified.
massysett 2 days ago 1 reply      
This is exactly why I dropped Netflix. I want a high-def movie, not their whining about someone else's network. I have no problems streaming from Amazon. I have a choice of streamers. Other streamers work better. I have less choice of wired ISPs and they're harder to switch. Netflix would rather whine and preserve its profit margins than pay up. OK, fine, but since their whining does not get me the movie I want, I cut it off.

Netflix will find that most other people also do not care to hear their whining. I can understand why Netflix does it though...it's $8 a month. Between production costs, licensing costs, marketing, and profits, all $8 a month leaves room for is crappy movies, poor investment, and a continuous drive to shift costs to ISPs and whine about it.

Ever Wished Bill Watterson Would Return to the Comics Page? He Just Did stephanpastis.wordpress.com
381 points by bigfaceworm  21 hours ago   72 comments top 14
tptacek 20 hours ago 2 replies      
Whoah. Second panel of the second Watterson strip. Chills.
hysan 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Though not linked, today's strip (http://www.gocomics.com/pearlsbeforeswine/2014/06/07) seems like a fun ending to their collaboration. Assuming the short story arc is over.
noonespecial 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Its... its like _why doing a guest post for Zed Shaw. Can't. look. away.
fernly 20 hours ago 6 replies      
I wonder if Watterson really believes the gag line for the third strip, "Nah, the art form's dying"? He might, being (apparently) a neo-luddite of some sort. But there has never been as many, or as good, comics as there are now, or as many busy, thriving comic artists. Hint: they are not found at gocomics.com.
whatshisface 20 hours ago 9 replies      
Is it just me or are the strips... just not that funny? All three of them are basicly the same joke, with one containing a minor reference to Watterson's page formatting preferences. Now that I think of it, that's really par for the course (or maybe a birdie) for newspaper comic strips in general. I guess it just seems strange to see the world's best living cartoonist come out of the fortress of solitude and do something other than leave the audience in tears of profundity.
suprgeek 20 hours ago 0 replies      
Almost like reopening old wounds.....Time to bring the C&H collection out of the bookshelf.
model-m 40 minutes ago 0 replies      
Holy shit. I did not expect this to ever happen, but I am mighty glad it did.

And thank you for C&H, Mr. Watterson.

coldcode 14 hours ago 2 replies      
I've always wished I could draw. Even XKCD's minimalist art style is still an artist drawing stuff which is beyond me. I can't draw a straight line with a computer (they're very heavy). C&H was not only great art, it was an amazing look on adult life despite it being about a kid and a stuffed tiger.
iamthepieman 10 hours ago 0 replies      
This is the best thing I've read in almost 20 years.
MilnerRoute 17 hours ago 1 reply      
I wonder how he feels about the fan-drawn sequels?


guelo 19 hours ago 2 replies      
C&H was great but calling Bill Watterson the greatest living cartoonist is ridiculous as long as Gary Larson is still around.
JoeAltmaier 8 hours ago 0 replies      
I knew it! The style is unmistakable. I thought maybe Pastis was imitating the style.
whoopdedo 7 hours ago 0 replies      
If a penguin shows up in the next strip I think we'll all know what's up.
teraflop 20 hours ago 1 reply      
The Washington Post talked to Watterson about the collaboration: http://m.washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp/2014/06/06/e...
Chris Lattner on Swift nondot.org
375 points by tambourine_man  4 days ago   197 comments top 23
Arjuna 4 days ago 3 replies      
Chris demonstrated Swift and Playgrounds at WWDC 2014:

"I can build anything with Swift... from a social media application, all the way up to a high-performance, 3D game using Metal."


He wrote this chapter (entitled LLVM) in the book, "The Architecture of Open Source Applications":


* * *

On the general topic, I wrote this [1] a little earlier in another thread; I'm just impressed with how Apple is becoming a gaming powerhouse.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7841744

siavosh 4 days ago 3 replies      
Great to see the credit to Bret Victor and Chris Granger's Light Table. Apple's resources can really help move forward these new ideas of what an IDE can be. If Swift is successful, a whole generation of young developers will use and improve on these ideas. Very exciting to see what happens.
slaven 4 days ago 5 replies      
It's amazing that Apple managed to go from hatching the idea in mid-2010 to releasing a fully working framework 4 years later, with tight IDE integration, huge amount of testing and compatibility without a single leak (that I've heard of).
gw 4 days ago 2 replies      
It is nice that he mentioned Light Table. I would not be surprised if Swift ends up really benefitting Clojure adoption indirectly. I think one of the big hangups for newcomers is that, if you don't have experience with a Lisp, it's often difficult to understand the benefits of interactive development. If a large amount of new programmers become exposed to it, they'll be more open to other options that provide similar or better interactivity.
scotu 4 days ago 2 replies      
He does not have a beard. I'm very skeptic this language will be successful
kinofcain 3 days ago 0 replies      
His take on the "x years of swift experience" meme is pretty great:

"Looking forward to next month: I'll be the first and only guy with 4 years of swift programming experience :-)"


jayvanguard 4 days ago 2 replies      
It looks like Rust was a major influence. It has been interesting seeing all these posts claiming Swift borrowed from _their_ language.

Obviously there is a lot of feature influence between languages but it was interesting to see the ones he called out explicitly.

prezjordan 4 days ago 2 replies      
> I hope that by making programming more approachable and fun, we'll appeal to the next generation of programmers and to help redefine how Computer Science is taught.

I'll be cynical here: can this be done if the language ends up being restricted to apple devices?

kyle_t 4 days ago 1 reply      
Site seems to be buckling under load. Google cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...
niix 4 days ago 3 replies      
Really excited for Swift. I've tried and failed many times to learn Objective C and felt that the barrier to entry was a bit to high for myself. As a someone who writes JavaScript for a living, Swift is very inviting.
jiaweihli 4 days ago 1 reply      
I'm not sure if it's XCode / playground acting up, but array equality is broken for me: `[1, 2, 3] == [1, 2, 3]` returns false. This seems to contradict the core declarations though:

/// Returns true if these arrays contain the same elements.

func ==<T : Equatable>(lhs: T[], rhs: T[]) -> Bool

Works alright for dictionaries. Is there a bug tracker for Swift anywhere to report this?


Whoops, copied wrong declaration. ContiguousArrays actually work fine, but require an extra cast. e.g.

ContiguousArray([1, 2, 3]) == ContiguousArray([1, 2, 3])

steele 4 days ago 1 reply      
I can't afford to ignore it as it matures, but with my dev setup right now, I just can't afford it. Hoping to see this work well in Linux and Windows.
spike021 4 days ago 1 reply      
Another interesting thing to note is that because Swift really began in roughly mid-2010, Steve Jobs probably had his hand at least slightly in it (obviously not as a programmer).

I guess my point being that there was likely some more specific reason for why it gained momentum later.

fataliss 4 days ago 2 replies      
I feel like swift is really a good view on the future of programming. And it seems that in the future we have really two different kind of software engineers. As we make programming mainstream and easy, we will see some new people able to use langages like swift and dev good apps without having the slightest idea of what is happening underneath. We used to have at least a common background between software engineers but I think it gonna slowly disappear. Is it good or bad? I can't make up my mind yet, but I'm really considering more and more to go back to lower level langages as I feel like the upper levels are going to be crowded by young generations.
thehme 3 days ago 1 reply      
Swift "greatly benefited from the experiences hard-won by many other languages in the field, drawing ideas from Objective-C, Rust, Haskell, Ruby, Python, C#, CLU, and far too many others to list." I have been wondering if in fact this language will be Open Source, since it is said to have taken from other programming languages, some of which are Open Source, yet the decision to make it Open Source has not been made? Lock down.
LeicaLatte 2 days ago 0 replies      
Looking forwards, here's a dream roadmap if this WWDC is any indication.

playgrounds for iPad, interface builder for iPad and finally Xcode.

thibautx 3 days ago 0 replies      
Extremely excited about this language's versatility. Also great to see the work of my school's Alumni and professors going into production. This is the third time I've come across the LLVM compiler in industry use (albeit nothing to the scale of iOS' language) - anecdotally during my internship search this last semester. Will be very interesting to take Professor Adve's compiler course soon.
herinkc 4 days ago 0 replies      
Apple really took a big step. Waiting to see amazing stuffs done with Swift.
airjd 3 days ago 0 replies      
I like js, but not swift.
c2u 3 days ago 2 replies      
Swift is a little complex.

Does it compile to Object-C?

mzs 4 days ago 2 replies      
I wish Apple had selected a different name: https://www.ci.uchicago.edu/research-projects/swift
enraged_camel 4 days ago 4 replies      
I like Chris and what he has done, but...

>>The Swift language is the product of tireless effort from a team of language experts, documentation gurus, compiler optimization ninjas...

Seriously? What is a "documentation guru"? What is a "compiler optimization ninja"? I find language like this so distracting and asinine that I had to stop reading. Am I the only one?

dominiek23 4 days ago 3 replies      
Funny how he forgot to mention Golang somehow while that seems to be one of the bigger inspirations for the language.
Dash Beautiful instant offline docs for almost everything kapeli.com
364 points by AlexMuir  1 day ago   165 comments top 62
jrajav 1 day ago 3 replies      
I've enjoyed http://devdocs.io/ for the same purpose, though it doesn't have quite the same library.
AlexMuir 1 day ago 1 reply      
I travel a lot. And I'm thinking about buying a houseboat in France. I wish I'd seen this years ago. Happily purchased.

I can't believe this hasn't come up before - we had a big discussion about working offline on cruise ships and it wasn't mentioned. [1]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6697787

izacus 1 day ago 1 reply      
The thing about Dash is that it's just so much faster at displaying documentation than going to the browser and doing a search query - I use it even when I'm online with Alfred integration.

Certanly a great investment.

XorNot 1 day ago 1 reply      
In my experience (using Zeal - which is the Linux QT port of Dash and uses the same repos) the docs generally seem to have some glaring oversights at the moment.

Possibly Zeal's search just isn't as good yet, but I had a heck of a time finding things about Python which are trivial to locate on the website through Google.

Speaking of: http://zealdocs.org/download.html

Dash-docs for Linux, PPA for Ubuntu/Mint available! It uses the exact same documentation sets and supports downloading in app.

selectnull 1 day ago 1 reply      
Dash is great. The only reason I don't use it is that it offers only latest docset versions; once you update (in-app, great feature) the docsets, there is no way to access previous versions.

I would pay and use it immediately if I could access all versions (for example, Django 1.0 thru 1.7 etc)

sehr 1 day ago 0 replies      
Can't imagine life without this anymore. How it frees up the ~5 tabs of docs I used to have open in another window is worth it alone

For those of you on OSX, the integration with Alfred[0] is also stellar.

[0] - http://www.alfredapp.com/

chm 1 day ago 3 replies      
I bought Dash a year ago. I've barely used it. My brain is wired to search on the web, not on Dash. The only times I've used it were when I had no internet connectivity, and it saved me.

Great product, it just doesn't fit into my routine.

jwr 1 day ago 2 replies      
I've been using Dash for more than a year now. I love it. It is great for quickly looking up things, and best of all it works for multiple languages. I regularly write code in Clojure, Perl, Java and C, I also use Redis and PostgreSQL, and Dash helps with all of that.

My only wish is that someday I could get Intel's x86 manuals and ARM Cortex M0 and M4 instruction set documentation in Dash.

hopeless 1 day ago 1 reply      
Dash is great and a big shout-out to the developer (@kapeli) who is really responsive to support requests. I found that the backbone docset was actually using the Edge version not the latest stable release. He had it fixed in a few hours.
Ryel 1 day ago 0 replies      
Dash has been one of the most amazing tools to improve my day-to-day workflow. It's incredible.

I love to travel and specifically I love to travel to places that dont have wifi. Often times I take fly fishing trips to Montana, or shorter trips to the Smokey Mountains and during these times I need to be able to work an entire day without internet and Dash is the only reason I can do this effectively.

Dash + Alfred + Sublime are probably my most used tools in any given day (aside from Spotify which is rarely ever turned off)

rgrau 1 day ago 1 reply      
For ppl living in emacs, there's a plugin that use dash docsets but don't require dash and it's quite integrated with emacs (helm).

They work in linux and windows.

BIAS ALERT: I'm coauthor of the plugin.


philo23 1 day ago 0 replies      
Bought this a while back and was very impressed, definitely a worthwhile purchase if you ever spend some time without much internet access. The integration with Alfred + the fuzzy searching is just the icing on the cake.

Also as a little side note, I thought the way it handled the UI for tabs was interesting, though it does leave little room to grab the window and drag when you've got a few open.

patrickg 1 day ago 0 replies      
I really like dash. It's also super easy to provide your own documentation. I've created a small python script for my software [1].

Here is the dash-feed: dash-feed://http%3A%2F%2Fspeedata.github.io%2Fpublisher%2Fspeedata_Publisher_(en).xml

[1] https://github.com/speedata/publisher/blob/develop/bin/creat...

tolmasky 1 day ago 2 replies      
When the option to buy on the website or on the App Store is presented like this, which do the authors usually prefer?
zimbatm 1 day ago 0 replies      
Just bought this recently. I feel that I got my money back with all the time won over Google searches multiple times already. The low latency and absence of unrelated results helps me stay in the flow. For me the trick was to assign a global shortcut to invoke the tool.
crag 8 hours ago 0 replies      
I LOVE the integration: Alfred, PHPStorm, and Sublime. Brilliant. And frankly, I can't believe you have docs for things like Yii.

Easily worth the 19.99 price. Thanks.

Cthulhu_ 1 day ago 1 reply      
I like the idea, I bought it and have it open all the time, however I don't find myself using it that often. That's probably because I know most of the tools I work with out of memory (angularJS), and the documentation I do have to look up sometimes (UnderscoreJS) I actually prefer to see in the browser; the navigation on the browser version has a better subdivision in Underscore modules (functions, arrays, objects etc) which Dash's index is missing.

(subtle feature request: subcategories for the underscore docset, or headers/sections in the method listing)

TheHippo 1 day ago 0 replies      
For users other platforms there is Zeal which does almost the same (and also is free): http://zealdocs.org/
dorian-graph 1 day ago 0 replies      
Great developer too. I've put in docs request (for ColdFusion) and he constantly sought feedback from me to ensure it was presented in the best way possible and if he was unsure about something himself.
baldfat 1 day ago 3 replies      
OS X is surprising to me. This is something that should be cross platform.
visarga 8 hours ago 0 replies      
@kapeli : I am trying to buy Dash, but when I click the green "Purchase Dash" button, nothing happens. Is it normal?
purge 1 day ago 0 replies      
This has been the single best investment i've made to my workflow for years. Really communicative, friendly developer too.
jason_slack 1 day ago 2 replies      
I love Dash.

My one request. I wish that I could take my own HTML docs (WiiU Dev stuff, as example) and my own PDF's and get them into DASH for searching.

I have a fair amount of documentation in HTML that I would love to have all in one place along with the Docsets I use daily.

shoki 1 day ago 0 replies      
I love dash; I've been using it for years.

A small wishlist:

- ClojureDocs: http://clojuredocs.org/

- Hoogle integration: http://www.haskell.org/hoogle/

- BroPages: http://bropages.org/

j_s 1 day ago 0 replies      
Definitely a requirement on the next non-Internet-accessible development opportunity!

I would like to see a utility that would collect (readability-ified) urls and package them nicely for Dash/Zeal. This would make it easy to build an ultra-custom collection of useful info - a searchable offline bookmarking tool. Best of all would be something that knew how to periodically refresh this archive.

Also, these tools should include a timeline tracking what was useful so that as I return to projects/problems I can scroll back and pick up where I left off.

julenx 1 day ago 1 reply      
Bought the license few weeks ago and loving it.

Would be willing to pay even more if it integrated well with ReadTheDocs there are tons of (not only) Python docs living there which I need regularly.

And yes, I know #662 exists [1] on the RTD side and the future is not so clear.

[1] https://github.com/rtfd/readthedocs.org/issues/662

rafadc 1 day ago 1 reply      
I was very happy to see this in HN. This is one of my favourite everyday job tools in my Mac. It's also easy to integrate with vim, emacs or sublime to show the docs for the selected keyword.

For a clojure programmer having clojuredocs docset is also a must (https://github.com/dlokesh/clojuredocs-docset) although I think this is unofficial.

john2x 17 hours ago 1 reply      
Dash is the only app that's making me think twice about buying a Linux machine when my current laptop retires.
colinramsay 1 day ago 1 reply      
Looks good, particularly alfred and sublime integration. It doesn't download any docsets for me on the OSX10.10 preview but I'll try it again when Yosemite is a bit more prepared for the real world!

Good stuff!

jamesu 1 day ago 0 replies      
A great example of a purpose-built app which does one thing really well (i.e. searching docs from a single location). Easily beats having to google for docs.
winter_blue 1 day ago 0 replies      
Wow, this is probably the most incredibly useful app for the Mac I've come across in a long time! The UI is seamless and well-made. I'm gonna love using this. :-)

Kudos HN, for bringing this app into the limelight!

Hansi 1 day ago 0 replies      
This looks great, assuming it's very useful when you want to do concentrated coding with internet off to avoid distractions. I'm sold, buying this when I get out of work.
davidbrent 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is awesome. Although an excellent resource, there are many times I get very distracted using Google to get this kind of information. This could help me stay on task.
estebanrules 1 day ago 0 replies      
Dash really is an indispensable developer's tool for OS X, but it took me a bit to integrate it into my work flow. Now I use it all the time, it's great.
brianzelip 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is pretty sweet. How do the docsets get prepped for download? The author scrapes the html doc pages at the tool's site? But for example in the case of Node.js, the menu nav on the left side of the official docs [0] aren't found in Dash's docset.


hackerboos 1 day ago 0 replies      
I used Dash for a couple of months but found myself Googling when Dash returned no results.

Dash needs better fuzzy searching.

markthethomas 1 day ago 0 replies      
I've really found this app incredibly helpful; I use a really wide variety of libraries and APIs and not having to go to each site has saved me tons of time. Maybe it's not for everyone, but I've loved it. Worth trying out.
daleharvey 1 day ago 4 replies      
Glad to see people providing offline documentation (and worrying about offline in general)

I am wondering why you went with a native app as opposed to something webbased though?

QuadDamaged 1 day ago 0 replies      
Dash is beautiful because it doesn't get in your way. Very flexible, and even the most convoluted features are quite simple to configure.

My only wish is that it would let me use a 'night mode' so I can use white text on dark background at night.

robertcarter 1 day ago 0 replies      
Is there a way to tab into the content for a query (right side column) instead of having to mouseover and scroll? Also it would be nice to be able to search the content area as well so I can more effectively jump to the material I think I need.
encoderer 1 day ago 0 replies      
This integrated with Alfred is a must-have dev tool IMO.
listic 1 day ago 1 reply      
Is there an easy way to (try to) run Mac apps on Linux, like Wine project +PlayOnLinux for Windows?
trevorhartman 1 day ago 0 replies      
Dash has become a part of my standard workflow in the last few months. It's great and it's always getting better. @kapeli responds quickly to feedback/questions on Twitter. I use it with Alfred and the vim plugin.
cobalt 20 hours ago 0 replies      
It looks nice, I wish it were on windows as well (and linux while you're at it
geoffroy 1 day ago 0 replies      
Love Dash !! Esp. since you can also add Rubygems doc
Honzo 1 day ago 1 reply      
Dash is great combined with Alfred. I changed the keyword to a period (.) with no space so lookups look like ".extend" and bam I get the results for extend from four docsets.
electic 1 day ago 1 reply      
I like DevDocs better. I kind of find it shady that Dash is free and then suddenly, poof, you have to pay.
emilyst 21 hours ago 0 replies      
I wonder how out of the question Spotlight integration would be.
mhenr18 1 day ago 0 replies      
I love Dash, have recommended it to everyone at uni. Using a machine where Alt+Space doesn't throw up documentation feels really weird.
localhost 1 day ago 1 reply      
If this were integrated with an offline cache of StackOverflow questions that would be fantastically awesome.
brockers 1 day ago 0 replies      
It is really annoying when these HN links are to Mac only applications.
d1ffuz0r 1 day ago 0 replies      
For python you can try a docsets collection of the most popular packages: http://python-dashapp.tk/
shunya 1 day ago 0 replies      
I have been using it for 6 months, love it.
jzupnick 1 day ago 0 replies      
Dash ramped up my programming game like nothing else. Pair it with the Dash Alfred workflow and you'll be flying. Highly recommended.
gesman 1 day ago 0 replies      
pastaking 1 day ago 0 replies      
I love this! Thank you!
sdegutis 1 day ago 0 replies      
When Dash first came out, I liked it a lot, and found it better than Google for finding what I needed in almost any language I used.

But for some reason that even I don't really know, I stopped using it. I just checked the App Store on this computer, and it says Install, not Buy, which means I already paid for it long ago, and could have been using it this whole time. If only the developers could figure out why I stopped, they could probably make a lot more money.

That said, I do still see an App Store notification pop up every once in a while saying Dash needs to be updated, and it is pretty annoying how often that happens compared to any other app.

jablan 1 day ago 5 replies      
Call me stupid, but I can't get simple question answered by reading the page: What is Dash? A website? Locally run server listening at 8080? Desktop application? From the screenshots I guess it is probably OSX app, but is it so hard to put it clearly somewhere in the top?
kovrik 1 day ago 3 replies      
Didn't like it. Why use Dash if you have Google?But maybe I'm missing something. I'll try new version.
chrisgd 1 day ago 0 replies      
I have no idea what this is as I am not a programmer, but the website looks really good
suckprogrammer 1 day ago 2 replies      
Nice advertising. It's a decent app that will hold you hostage for data unless you feed it 20 bucks. If they get a better(cheaper) financial model I could see myself doing it.
OpenSSL Security Advisory openssl.org
358 points by davidroetzel  2 days ago   83 comments top 17
jgrahamc 2 days ago 3 replies      
Since most(1) web browsers do not use OpenSSL, CVE-2014-0224 is not going to be a big concern for people browsing using SSL, but it is a concern for machine-to-machine communication where using OpenSSL on both ends will be common.

Given that this also affects 0.9.8 there are going to be lots of backend systems that need upgrading.

(1) Apparently Chrome on Android is the odd man out in using OpenSSL, but I don't know if it is vulnerable to this problem.

ctz 2 days ago 5 replies      
CVE-2014-0224 looks the worst of this bunch.

It seems openssl will accept ChangeCipherSpec messages much too early. CCS in TLS means "we've finished handshake/renegotiation and will now start using the new keys".

It looks likely that a MITM can send CCS to both ends during handshake, and have them agree on the empty master secret (and therefore trivial application data encryption keys). This is pretty bad as far as TLS bugs go (as bad as "goto fail", but not as bad as "heartbleed").

Given that accepting TLS messages only within the right constraints is fundamental to correctness of TLS and openssl seemingly can't get this right (this, and heartbeat messages before/during handshake), it seems likely this isn't the last problem of this kind.

reaperhulk 2 days ago 1 reply      
Logos are now prerequisite, so of course CVE-2014-0224 has you covered. http://ccsinjection.lepidum.co.jp

If you want to see the patches they're now up on GitHub:

OpenSSL 1.0.1: https://github.com/openssl/openssl/commits/OpenSSL_1_0_1-sta...

OpenSSL 1.0.0: https://github.com/openssl/openssl/commits/OpenSSL_1_0_0-sta...

OpenSSL 0.9.8: https://github.com/openssl/openssl/commits/OpenSSL_0_9_8-sta...

0x0 2 days ago 0 replies      
There's also a linux kernel update today, for a local root exploit(?) (CVE-2014-3153):


pling 2 days ago 1 reply      
Interested to see if LibreSSL has knocked these ones on the head.
gamed 2 days ago 2 replies      
The large volume of vulnerabilities coming out of OpenSSL are worrying, but it likely reflects the increased effort being put into auditing and fuzzing the code after Heartbleed. What is more worrying is the many other critical pieces of software that have nowhere near the level of scrutiny that OpenSSL is receiving currently.
billpg 2 days ago 1 reply      
Does this one have a logo? I'm not going to take it seriously unless it has a logo.
thefreeman 2 days ago 2 replies      
I feel like there is a (potentially bad) typo in the second paragraph of this advisory.

Serversare only known to be vulnerable in OpenSSL 1.0.1 and 1.0.2-beta1. Usersof OpenSSL servers earlier than 1.0.1 are advised to upgrade as a precaution.

It seems to me that users on versions earlier then 1.0.1 would be advised not to upgrade since they stated in the sentence before that 1.0.1 is vulnerable.


edit: Oops, I feel kind of dumb. Literally the next line is describing the recommended upgrade for 0.9.8 users:

OpenSSL 0.9.8 SSL/TLS users (client and/or server) should upgrade to 0.9.8za.

lucaspiller 2 days ago 0 replies      
The change can be seen here:


I noticed (in that commit anyway) there were no tests changed. Is it pretty standard not to test things like this? If I find a major bug in code I write, I usually write a test first and TTD until it's fixed.

ishatmypants 2 days ago 1 reply      
Is LibreSSL also vulnerable to this?
leorocky 2 days ago 1 reply      
Does this vulnerability compromise the private key? Should people generate new key pairs?
m4r71n 2 days ago 0 replies      
Red Hat advisory for RHEL6 seems to be already available: https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHSA-2014-0625.html


They also released a blog entry about the CCS injection issue: https://access.redhat.com/site/blogs/766093/posts/908133

zekenie 2 days ago 1 reply      
Is it recommended to cycle ssl certs?
anon12 1 day ago 0 replies      
Looking at all the attention openSSL is getting these days, I'd use another solution in my production servers (if security was an important concern).
dk8996 1 day ago 1 reply      
Anyone know if this has any impact on AWS Load Balancer?
Thank HN: You guys helped me land my dream job.
358 points by jader201  5 days ago   60 comments top 36
moserware 5 days ago 5 replies      
When I saw Jerad's post on Hacker News, he looked like a good fit for a developer role at Kaggle. Our team interviewed him remotely and I met him in person and verified that he has the talent, curiosity, and life-long interest in software development that'll make him a great addition. We're really excited to bring him aboard.

Thanks HN for helping us make a rare find!

P.S. If you're into machine learning and/or have an interest in developing a great site for a community (like Jerad), we're always looking for more to join us: http://www.kaggle.com/careers

numlocked 5 days ago 2 replies      
Congrats! I'm a former Kaggle employee and it is an incredible place to work.
grayrest 5 days ago 0 replies      
I had a similar experience. I thought "eh, why not?" and got a surprising number of high quality leads. I started a remote working contract for a group in London on the 12th and it's been working quite well.
lazyant 5 days ago 2 replies      
I had kind of the opposite experience; interviewed one or more times with a bunch of the "Who's hiring" companies and only one had the decency to send an email with an update; the others went into radio silence.
visakanv 5 days ago 1 reply      
Congratulations! Work hard, and remember this if you ever find yourself going through a rough patch or taking things for granted. Kick butt!
Inversechi 5 days ago 0 replies      
I too was impressed by the response from posting on that thread. I had recently moved to Germany to be closer to my partner and got spotted by a company that was really interesting to me (MenschDanke [0]). Had a few interviews, met the team and all that went well and I start working on Monday :)

[0]: http://www.menschdanke.de/This thread should definitely be continued!

agentultra 5 days ago 1 reply      
I too had a good experience and had the opportunity to speak with many interesting people... however the only thing lacking was the visibility of my preferences. I wasn't surprised that the majority of people who contacted me were from SF but everyone who had seemed oblivious to the fact that I'm based in Canada, not interested in relocating, but love to work remotely.

If we do another thread I will certainly try again (still looking).

gs7 5 days ago 0 replies      
I agree that the Who Wants To Be Hired thread is valuable and helpful. I was a bit late to the party, but I still had 4 companies and 2 recruiters contact me, one of which turned into an on-site interview at a YC company. I would definitely love to see this thread continue to be posted every month.
piratebroadcast 5 days ago 0 replies      
Really happy for you Jared! I'm a full-stack Rails dev in Boston and posted in the new "Who's Looking?" thread. Wish me luck.
lbacaj 5 days ago 1 reply      
First off, Congrats!

Secondly, I didn't know those things actually worked so I never bothered posting so good to see that they do.

clavalle 5 days ago 0 replies      
I'll have to give the 'Who Wants to Be Hired' thread a try when it comes up again.

Thanks for sharing your story! Very motivating!

Killswitch 5 days ago 0 replies      
Congratulations! I found my dream job in IRC. It's always the unusual places you find your dream job. Kaggle looks very interesting.

Good luck to both you.

mkesper 5 days ago 0 replies      
Hope the dream continues when you actually start working. :)
antr 5 days ago 0 replies      
Congrats! Lets hope more people land their dream job via HN.
jackmaney 5 days ago 0 replies      
Congratulations! Kaggle sounds like a wonderful place to work.
michaelochurch 5 days ago 0 replies      
Congratulations. It takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there like that.
jlt 5 days ago 0 replies      
Congratulations! It's good to see people getting results from the "Who wants to be hired?" threads!
serf 5 days ago 1 reply      
gratz on the job.

did you ever implement the 'bells' system for the animal crossing site? That idea intrigued me as a workaround for ad blockers.

samk9080 5 days ago 0 replies      
Congrats Jerad!

P.S. Kaggle sounds like a great place to work - Just out of curiosity do you know if Kaggle is looking for any front-end devs.? :)

Zhian 5 days ago 0 replies      
Wow, congrats! Like a few people on this thread, I wasn't aware these actually paid off. Well done on landing an awesome job.
jimwalsh 5 days ago 0 replies      
Congrats and good luck at the new job!
simonhamp 5 days ago 0 replies      
Great post! And congratulations. Hope it goes well!
ryentzer 5 days ago 0 replies      
Congrats. It's encouraging to hear of a jobs postings that really do work.
bjpcjp 5 days ago 0 replies      
This is awesome. Well done!
sungeuns 5 days ago 0 replies      
Congratulation! Kaggle is my dream company too : )
AdrienBe 5 days ago 2 replies      
Is there any threads for people located in Europe only, Switzerland more precisely?ps. It's hard to find skilled people & vice-versa so this could really help
Rulero 5 days ago 0 replies      
Well done and congratulations!
genofon 5 days ago 0 replies      
congratulations! Kaggle is a great company!
zamio 5 days ago 0 replies      
Congrats. This is the best use of HN!
gansai 5 days ago 0 replies      
Congratulations.. Awesome...
bowlofstew 5 days ago 0 replies      
Very cool and congrats!
Srinivas_Tamada 5 days ago 0 replies      
Many Congrats.
hoboon 5 days ago 0 replies      
congrats! :D
ken_laun 5 days ago 0 replies      
Congratulations!Good Luck at Kaggle.
morewillie 5 days ago 0 replies      
KhalPanda 5 days ago 1 reply      
Interesting that this thread has gained so much traction. I created an "Ask HN" submission this morning asking about people's experiences with the monthly "Freelancer? Seeking freelancer?" threads, which got ignored and promptly burried!


Show HN: Card An interactive CSS3 credit card form jessepollak.github.io
347 points by jessepollak  3 days ago   112 comments top 50
dshankar 3 days ago 4 replies      
Looks gorgeous. I can't help but wonder if people unfamiliar with technology and ecommerce would be deterred by such a form? It might give some users the impression that the website is "copying" the credit card. It would be interested to test the opinions of non-tech savvy users.
dclowd9901 3 days ago 2 replies      
Looks great. Few notes:

1) On the already crowded payment form, I don't want to devote a hell of a lot of space to something that is otherwise inconsequential (a picture of a credit card)

2) Is it a great idea to broadcast someone's card numbers so clearly? The graphic is so obviously a credit card, it would be easy for any onlooker to spot and steal.

Really, this seems like aesthetics for aesthetics' sake, which I traditionally shy from, but I always like seeing people take a swing at something.

leepowers 3 days ago 0 replies      
This is neat, and I love the look and feel. The only problem is that it's completely unnecessary and possibly confusing for potential customers. But that's just my opinion. It would be interesting if someone would put this on their own payment page and share the conversion metrics.

There's a few annoyances that threw me off:

1) Like others mentioned in this thread, I first tried to enter credit card details directly on the card. I was initially blind to the text inputs underneath the card. If the card was initially hidden, then faded in to the left/right of the input form that might alleviate this confusion. The problem is the card is so beautiful and neat looking I immediately anchor to the card instead of the input form.

2) When entering an invalid date or credit card number there's no visual feedback. It's very common to be blind to your own input errors, which necessitates clear communication of error state.

3) Even more confusing, I can't tab to the CVC field when the date is invalid. But I can tab to the name field when the credit card number is invalid. This inconsistent behavior initially made me think the form was "broken".

jacquesm 3 days ago 1 reply      
Let me be the first to rain on your parade (sorry).

If you're not the merchant of record using this form could very well violate your terms of service for whatever credit card company you have your merchant account with, and/or the IPSP terms of service.

Using this can result in terminating your merchant account or temporary suspension depending on how they take it.

The reason why is that the logo's are only allowed to be used by the merchant of record, for many of the parties interested in that this will be their IPSP. So verify prior to doing this that you actually are allowed to use the card association logos. (And for that matter, that you're authorized to capture the card details!).

Please be careful, if you lose your merchant account it could be a while before you get it back, if ever.

wingerlang 3 days ago 2 replies      
On the "Before" it says "painful". What is painful about it?

And as someone else said, I also tried entering ON the card rather than below it.

brandon272 3 days ago 0 replies      
Interesting experiment! I'd like to see some data on how effective it is versus typical card entry fields.

At first glance I think users would be extremely confused by what is happening in terms of what to fill out, if not full out distracted by the animated card.

wmeredith 3 days ago 0 replies      
This is really pretty. Kudos to the dev/designers. However, if there's one thing on my website I don't want to be exciting, it's entering payment data.
goeric 3 days ago 2 replies      
It's confusing because my first instinct was to type my credit card info on the card itself. It took me a few seconds to realize there was a form below it.
joeframbach 3 days ago 0 replies      
Great, so instead of worrying about someone peeking over my shoulder, I now have to worry about the person 30 feet away, with the size of that font.
r00fus 3 days ago 1 reply      
Looks nice, perhaps you can implement the Luhn algorithm to ensure the CC is not known-invalid (to prevent data entry error)?


timme 3 days ago 0 replies      
There's nothing painful about a regular form with the minimum amount of fields.
JoshTriplett 3 days ago 0 replies      
It's a nice display, but as others have said it invites attempts to type on the card itself (which doesn't work). It also doesn't scale with increased font sizes; the card remains the same size and text within it wraps or gets cut off.
ultimoo 3 days ago 1 reply      
I'm no design or UX expert and this does look smooth.

However, how does this stack up against the recent UX trend of moving away from skeumorphism? Why should a CC number be represented by an actual plastic card that is coming to life and flipping around on my screen?

I believe the future of plastic credit cards is limited given the security loop holes etc. Companies like Square, Google, etc. are already championing transferring money over native internet identities like email addresses.

primitivesuave 3 days ago 0 replies      
I once saw a detailed analysis of skeuomorphic credit card input, and it turns out the general population is less likely to fail on a non-moving credit card input box, largely because of difficulties with entering the CVC code. This combines both the skeuomorphic nature of Skeuocard by Ken Keiter (http://kenkeiter.com/skeuocard/) with the simplicity of creditcardJS (creditcardjs.com). I love it!
aresant 3 days ago 1 reply      
Very cool experiment but as others have pointed out it's tough to beat simplicity from a conversion perspective.

Example Amazon:


Single name on card fieldCard # Dropdown for EXP

Example Stripe:


Single name on card fieldCard # Exp / CVC

Less is more when it comes to this point in your conversion funnel.

And the fundamental conversion issue around collecting a CC at this point in cycle isn't usually design, it's trust.

mikeryan 3 days ago 2 replies      
Its broken for American Express cards. Amex cards don't do the number as 4 groups of 4, and the security code is on the front.

EDIT: I apologize it works! (note I did try it but apparently mis-typed my first four digits ....)

simcop2387 3 days ago 1 reply      
It doesn't seem to be working to tab between fields in Chrome. Once I've entered the expiration date it just fails to go to CVC or let me tab into it. had to use the mouse to switch fields.
iLoch 3 days ago 2 replies      
This is great! There's also Skeuocard (http://kenkeiter.com/skeuocard/) which offers a bit more of a skeuomorphic design. I think I favour the form as part of the card, however this may be confusing/inaccessible to some people - nice work on the library!
tomhschmidt 3 days ago 1 reply      
FWIW, Chrome blocked your calls to load various JS and CSS files from Yandex because you used HTTP, not HTTPS.
jakejake 3 days ago 0 replies      
I really want to like this because the design and functionality of is very cool. Like others I tried to start typing on the card so there is definitely an element of confusion that isn't there with a normal form. The last place I want to risk any confusion is the stage at which the customer is trying to pay me! A variation of this where you could type on the card might be interesting.
ChrisArchitect 2 days ago 0 replies      
Used in production today on an internal tool that we do some billing/card running on. After some small jquery options struggles, it worked as it says on the tin.

Interesting reaction by test group when deploying....test group being a small group of coworkers. Without announcement, they immediately were untrusting of it and thought it was somehow consuming the credit card information maliciously. This is the security climate we find ourselves in. heh But after assuring them, they thought it was pretty neat/fun.


muaddirac 3 days ago 1 reply      
Looks nice, but doesn't play well with autocomplete in chrome (tab completing my name didn't show up on the card)
brainless 2 days ago 0 replies      
Looks absolutely beautiful. But I stopped for a second and did not, at first, give my real card number.

Are we so used to crappy CC forms, that a nice, flashy one (which I know is open sourced on github - I can validate if they are doing something bad) is slightly scaring me?

Wow that's the power of crappy design fed to us for years.

xdissent 3 days ago 1 reply      
Doesn't seem to show the card at all in Safari. Works in Chrome, however.
jpeg_hero 3 days ago 1 reply      
looks cool.

Any A/B test results on conversion rates?

christudor 2 days ago 0 replies      
For me the whole thing took too long to load. I didn't even see the card until I had filled in most of the data in the fields (and I was thinking, 'What's so different about this?'). Then the card loaded and all the data I had put in already was automatically deleted and I had to do it all again. If I was buying something on a whim, this might just be enough for me to think 'Forget it'.

More generally, while I do think that entering card details is a bit of a ball-ache, I don't think the solution is having a picture of the card on screen...

xrt 2 days ago 0 replies      
thank you for this. i've never understood why credit cards are printed w/ spaces between the numbers, presumably to reduce transcription errors, but 99.9% of web forms force you to enter the number without any spaces.
cesarbs 3 days ago 0 replies      
Looks really nice, but right now it's quite buggy on IE 11. I see a lot of flickering and it keeps scrolling to the top of the page.
lugg 3 days ago 0 replies      
Tab from expiry to cvc doesn't work in the interactive. Other than that, honestly, I was just impressed by the "boring" version. Very tidy form, nice to see a new take on it. Existing cc forms around are seriously painful to use. Really digging the card vendor detection, neat touch.
HarrietJones 3 days ago 0 replies      

Two minor points...

It would be nice if it checksummed the card to ensure the entered number was a valid credit card number on form exit.

You can get 17 digit credit card numbers now.

pointpointclick 3 days ago 0 replies      
I can't imagine I would ever use this, as a developer or as an e-commerce customer. But it is certainly a well-executed, fun exercise... Folks on CodePen.io would go bananas over it.
encoderer 3 days ago 0 replies      
If you need something easy, nothing is better IMO than Stripe Checkout.

It's insanely easy to integrate, and has an awesome (modal) payment form.

frik 3 days ago 0 replies      
Mouse scrolling is broken on that page in IE 11.
r00fus 3 days ago 0 replies      
Another point, I tend to rely on iCloud Keychain and 1Password to store card information.

Perhaps you should ensure it works with those data entry methods?

stock584 3 days ago 1 reply      
Pretty nice, pretty similar to JS Skeuocard (http://kenkeiter.com/skeuocard/)
pbreit 3 days ago 1 reply      
That's a lot of code for a sliver of functionality. Does that concern developers these days?
reledi 2 days ago 0 replies      
If anyone ends up doing some user testing with this form, please let us know the results!
Sebguer 2 days ago 0 replies      
Oh, wow. The first time I loaded the page the image didn't form correctly and it was just a block of text which was hideous. Then I read the top comment calling it gorgeous so went back, and now that it loaded properly, I agree! Quite awesome.
wwarren 3 days ago 6 replies      
This looks great, but any code that attempts to guess the card type using the first few numbers always makes me nervous
pestaa 3 days ago 3 replies      
I see no difference. This error is displayed in my console.

  ReferenceError: hljs is not defined
On line 123. Hope this helps, good luck.

kdd 3 days ago 0 replies      
This code looks eerily similar to Stripe's jquery.payment (https://github.com/stripe/jquery.payment/blob/master/lib/jqu...)
tangoalpha 2 days ago 0 replies      
Except that I would have to use the mouse to navigate from Expiry Date to CSV field. I would prefer a simpler one where i wouldn't need to touch the mouse.
izietto 2 days ago 0 replies      
I like it a lot; one suggestion: increment the card colours contrast.
javierga 2 days ago 0 replies      
Love it, reminds me of the Dropr design when paying with credit cards. I guess it's not for every webpage, but it's a playful payment design
tomardern 3 days ago 1 reply      
Anyone seen a similar implementation which doesn't need jQuery?
jmcejuela 3 days ago 0 replies      
Love the design, thanks for this! The conversion rate must be analyzed but it definitely looks gorgeous.
graemian 2 days ago 0 replies      
2nd coolest thing I ever saw, just behind Psy's Gangnam Style :-)
smrz 3 days ago 0 replies      
Can't tab out of the expiration date field FYI
czbond 3 days ago 0 replies      
Very Very cool!
kzanul 3 days ago 0 replies      
This looks great and without using images - kudos!
Common Server Setups For Your Web App digitalocean.com
345 points by beigeotter  5 days ago   88 comments top 18
ntoshev 5 days ago 11 replies      
If you are just starting, you should have the simplest setup - everything on one server - and scale it only when it becomes necessary. Premature scalability adds complexity and slows down your iterations.

My setups usually consist of an nginx serving static content and proxying applications requests (doing gzip, etc). The data tier is initially collapsed into the application as described in http://www.underengineering.com/2014/05/22/DIY-NoSql/ This architecture allows very fast iterations while providing enough performance headroom; it can serve 10k simple (CRUD) http requests per second on a single core.

sz4kerto 5 days ago 2 replies      
I am hosting all of my stuff on a single VPS instance in Docker/lcx containers. It is reasonably easy to migrate stuff out if I need a larger hardware, but it's also very cheap.

Regarding scaling: a couple of years ago I ran a database on a single CPU core (because of licensing issues). It stored 50M rows a day and also executed various queries quite quickly. So I seriously doubt that most of us is going to need large clusters.

estsauver 5 days ago 3 replies      
The one thing I really want from Digital Ocean is a guide that carefully explains how to set up the "private network" piece of the equation.

The "orange box" that represents the private network in each of the examples is taken for granted, but for someone coming from an application development perspective that piece isn't trivial to make. EC2 Security groups make that sort of box incredibly easy to make, but DO doesn't have anything like that.

coherentpony 5 days ago 2 replies      
That was super helpful. I think I finally understand how serving web applications works. Thanks to whoever wrote this.
sergiosgc 5 days ago 0 replies      
Wouldn't it be much better to tech the concept of horizontal scalability applied to the application stack? Your server is a stack of interfaces: a frontend cache, a static content server, a dynamic content server and a database. You can horizontally scale each stack layer. Much simpler, applicable to different scenarios.

However, this approach won't give you a viral article title like "eight server setups for your app" (replace eight by 2^n where n is the layer count).

bttf 5 days ago 1 reply      
I really enjoy the community-driven articles/tutorials that DigitalOcean provides. They have documentation for a lot of processes that are not readily documented or still emerging.
cookerware 5 days ago 1 reply      
my current setup on DO, I would like some inputs.

website hosted on 1 droplet. additional 1 droplet per every customer is deployed through Stripe and DO api.

DO let's you save a snapshot and load it to the droplet. I have a snapshot that is basically a copy of my 'software'. It's a LAMP stack with init script to load the webapp from git repo.

Customer logs in at username.mywebapp.com

The beauty of this is that I never have to worry about things breaking or becoming a bottle neck. if one customer outgrows themselves, they won't affect other resources. It has linear scalability, new customers, add a new droplet. I don't need to worry about writing crazy deployment scripts although I use paramiko to ssh in to each server when I need to get dirty.

The main website is mostly static content. I could host it even on Amazon S3 but currently using cloudflare.

Updating the product code requires me to restart the droplet instance. However, I test things out on another staging droplet. Once things work on there, I use the DO api to iterate through all the customer droplets and do a restart.

CSDude 5 days ago 0 replies      
It would be very helpful if DigitalOcean sells load balancer too as Linode, because the bandwith limits are for each Droplet which makes it very illogical to use DigitalOcean. Of course, we can use Cloudflare or similar, but still It is a need.
falcolas 5 days ago 1 reply      
Virtually no mention of how the different server setups affect availability - this is very unfortunate. Availability (not to mention disaster recovery) are two things which I think are significantly more important than scaling, and your choice of server setup will affect both.
sandGorgon 5 days ago 1 reply      
does anyone know what a bare minimum monitoring setup for a single server having nginx, postgres and rails ? I'm far too intimidated by nagios to do anything significant.
austinhutch 5 days ago 2 replies      
This is awesome! Great content for DigitalOcean to be pushing out as I am probably the exact audience they are looking for when they published this. E.g. I've never gone beyond a shared hosting setup but have been curious to try my luck at learning more of the stack by using the DO platform.
pyfish 5 days ago 0 replies      
Thanks for the write up. It's the perfect time for me to be reminded about starting simple and changing the architecture as needed. I have prematurely optimized on one project in the past. It was painful. And after all that pain the mythical millions of unique visits never arrived.
occam65 5 days ago 0 replies      
As the "Startup Standards" begin to take shape, these guides prove to be extremely useful for the newcomers out there. Sure in 6-12 months it may become a bit dated (depending on the guide) but if kept up-to-date, they can be a powerful tool for a new company.
coreymgilmore 5 days ago 0 replies      
I propose an alteration to the typical LAMP stack: Replace Apache with Nginx and MySQL with MongoDB. Personally, the reduced resource use of Nginx is nice since I can run on a smaller "box". MongoDB is just a choice depending on the data set, but it does allow for sharding out horizontally without too much effort.
adventured 5 days ago 0 replies      
The effort D.O. puts into their community education is one of my favorite things about them. The few times I've had problems with a droplet configuration, inevitably someone had already posted a solution in the help section.
Jordan15 5 days ago 0 replies      
But GAP only supports some languages... you can't compare
derengel 5 days ago 0 replies      
nice guide, maybe a setup including redis/memcache would be useful too.
h1karu 5 days ago 0 replies      
Excellent writeup! Next I'd like to see an article on deployment. What if I want my development team to be able to push code changes regularly to an app cluster via a git-based workflow and have these deploys all occur with zero downtime ? I think that an article which demonstrates how to use modern deployment tools such as ansible or docker to achieve those goals on a commonly used programming environment such as Ruby would serve to lure quite a few developers away from PaaS towards something like Digital Ocean.

For now though, those tasks are still "hard" which means that for many developers digital ocean is still hard to use relative to other emerging platforms such as Redhat's Openshift or Heroku. I know there are many shops who would love to jump ship from IaaS to a less expensive platform but they feel the cost of rolling their own zero-downtime clustered deployment infrastructure is not worth the $ savings.

I suspect that if IaaS providers were to dedicate resources towards producing more educational material for developers with the aim of demonstrating how to achieve these deployment objectives on all the popular platforms using modern open source tools then loads of PaaS developers would jump ship.

For example: How can I use ansible to instantiate 5 new droplets and automatically install a load balancing server on one of them while setting up the Ruby on Rails platform, and ganglia on the remaining ? How can I run a load balancing test suite against the newly created cluster, interpret the results, and then tear the whole thing back down again all with a few keystrokes ? How could this same script allow me to add additional nodes and how does the resulting system allow for the deployment of fresh application code ? How can it be improved to handle logging and backup ?

I know that it's possible to create a deployment system to answer the above questions in less than a few hundred lines of ansible + Ruby, so I imagine it could be explained in a short series of blog posts, but you would probably need to hire a well-paid dev-ops guru to produce such documentation. I bet if you ask around on HN...

p.s. keep an eye on these:


^ If either of these become production quality software it could be a game changer for Digital Ocean.

Safari to Include DuckDuckGo as a Built-In Search Option daringfireball.net
332 points by antr  5 days ago   117 comments top 18
dredmorbius 5 days ago 9 replies      
This makes perfect sense in light of the growing relationship status of Apple and Google as major competitors in devices space (Android and iOS), and as such, it's a brilliant strategic move on Apple's part. DDG have made the first real inroads in search in over a decade, and they've done so quietly.

I can think of a number of widely touted alternatives which utterly failed to do so: Cuil, Bing, Blekko, A9, Teoma, and more (a DDG search shows a bunch of skeletons: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22new+search+engine%22+challenge+...). None has had the traction DDG seems to have garnered.

I see a confluence of a number of things:

Snowden. People are now privacy conscious, and aware of the tremendous amount of information disclosed in Web searches. DDG's huge traffic spike following the Snowden disclosures is testimony to this: https://duckduckgo.com/traffic.html

Google is the one to beat. Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Rackspace, and others see Google as their primary competition. This creates an alignment of interests among them.

Google has shown vulnerabilities. Failures to execute on a string of social efforts, most recently G+, as well as an increasing sense of distraction, as well as possible signs of weakness in its core search business, suggest a vulnerable underside to Google. DDG isn't big enough to cause real damage yet, but it can certainly get Google's attention.

Democratization of search. Was a time when massive datacenter investments were necessary for search. That's both no longer the case, and DC infrastructure's getting cheaper, both of which cut away at Google's core competency and advantage.

Google's lost its favored status among the technorati. While it's not clear who's won that crown, there's an increasing strong sense among many that Google have failed at their "don't be evil" pledge, have disappointed users, and simply don't have the chops they once demonstrated.

Specialized search is making inroads. OpenStreetMap is taking on geosearch, Wolfram+Alpha and Knoema specialized data search, Wikipedia is a basic more-or-less-trusted repository of actual information (as opposed to random Web sites), Amazon is a product and bibliographic research library. There are places to go for information which, if you've got a specific interest, are better than Google, and they're carving off bits of the search market.

So, yes, for the first time in 15 years, search looks like it may be ripe for a bit of disruption.

Don't get me wrong: Google does some things amazingly well. Date-bounded Web searches still draw me back (I did some here to turn up a few of the more obscure search contenders from the early 2000s), the Google Books Ngram viewer is fucking awesome, Google Trends isn't bad, and a few other elements. Reliability of Google services is amazing. But there are chinks in the armor.

mmahemoff 5 days ago 1 reply      
I thought something might be up when I saw Gabriel's unassuming tweet.


Personally I'm hoping DDG will at some point pick up the slack from Google dropping the Discussions tab (forum search). Evidently it wasn't so popular, but I found it hugely useful for researching product decisions and haven't found a good alternative. Seems like it could be a good niche to cover.

arrrg 5 days ago 2 replies      
Nice, but they should open up everything more and let people install any search engine. Apple did open up quite a bit today (in terms of letting others access their platform in places where Apple previously was the sole decider), so its not unlikely to eventually happen.
ChrisLTD 5 days ago 1 reply      
Awesome. I've been using a router hack* to accomplish this on iOS, but it'll be nice to have DuckDuckGo when I'm not on my home network.

* http://chrisltd.com/blog/2013/04/duck-duck-go-iphone-ipad/

Brakenshire 5 days ago 1 reply      
Be interesting to see whether it has any effect on the numbers:


k-mcgrady 5 days ago 1 reply      
Just set it as my default on iOS and searched for osx 10.10 Top part of the screen shows a Wikipedia result and the remainder shows an ad. Switching back to google.

If they can make that mobile UI much better I'll make it my default but I've essentially done a search and saw no results without having to scroll.

moyaRD 5 days ago 0 replies      
For months i have been in transition to DuckDuckGo. The only missing bit was native search in safari for iOS and OSX. This definitely seal the deal. And is good for all the industry that a viable second choice exist to bring balance to the force , and bring humility to google monopoly in search.
stickhandle 4 days ago 1 reply      
I really really want to like ddg, but I can't seem to get away from a need to !g. Further, though its obviously a loss in privacy, the quality in search results returning from a "context aware" google is just leaps better. Its a trade-off I guess. I know HN is very much in support of the primacy of privacy ... but there is no doubt search and ad relevancy goes down in anonymity.
Holbein 5 days ago 1 reply      
From the article:"Private Browsing mode which doesnt save your browsing history"

I wonder whether iCloud tabs still work in private browsing mode. In other words, do Apple and others still get to see all your supposedly "private" URLs?

MiguelHudnandez 5 days ago 0 replies      
The enemy of your enemy is your friend, indeed!
DigitalSea 5 days ago 0 replies      
This is fantastic news for DuckDuckGo and for Apple. A nice solid search engine coupled with a nice new redesign. If I were Google I would be a little bit worried DuckDuckGo are steadily stealing users. They converted me.
tomrod 5 days ago 5 replies      
How is duckduckgo's search quality nowadays?
jlarocco 5 days ago 0 replies      
Well, at least I like one thing Apple's doing.
100rsa 5 days ago 0 replies      
One reason I still not use DDG is no support for language specific search (settings not work). It mixed many similar language in the search result, for example, english and spanish.
zmmmmm 5 days ago 1 reply      
Is Google still the default?
kome 5 days ago 0 replies      
So, yandex basically.
pervycreeper 5 days ago 1 reply      
Meanwhile, 10.10 will track more keystrokes and gather more personal data than ever. Doesn't have anything to do with privacy. More to do with being at war with Google.
Holbein 5 days ago 2 replies      
Search engine placement is big business - doesn't Firefox make millions each year with Google referrals?

Apple did not add ddg in the past few years despite people asking them to, which might indicate that Apple, too, asks for money for these referrals.

So this begs the question - how how much did ddg have to pay?

Introducing Swift apple.com
327 points by pdknsk  5 days ago   217 comments top 65
kcorbitt 5 days ago 10 replies      
So it looks like the language isn't open source and won't target non-Apple runtimes?

I'm not trying to troll, I just think that it's a pity that Apple tends to limit the ecosystem and applications of its otherwise-great languages. Building against LLVM ought to make it fairly trivial to make this cross-platform.

tdicola 5 days ago 4 replies      
I'm impressed that it looks like they're turning Bret Victor's demo into a reality with playground. Check out his demo if you haven't: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII

Really, really interested and excited about learning Swift.

mathieuh 5 days ago 6 replies      
> Looking for the Swift parallel scripting language? Please visit http://swift-lang.org

Did they not know or do they just not care?

arasmussen 5 days ago 7 replies      
Feels like they looked at a bunch of programming languages, took all their favorite features, and then put them into one which still sits on top of the ObjC runtime. And then added some Apple syntactic craziness.

For example:

var apples = 3; // mutable

let oranges = 5; // immutable

let summary = "I have \(apples) apples and \(oranges) oranges";

bigsassy 5 days ago 1 reply      
Is this related to Bret Victor's stuff? My mind was blown when I saw this video 2 years ago, and I can't help but see similarities here:


juvoni 5 days ago 3 replies      
Looks like Recruiters will now be seeking Swift Developers with at least 5+ years of experience.
Xorlev 5 days ago 3 replies      
Looks like they pulled a Golang: http://swift-lang.org
scrumper 5 days ago 0 replies      
"The debugging console in Xcode includes an interactive version of the Swift language built right in. Use Swift syntax to evaluate and interact with your running app, or write new code to see how it works in a script-like environment. Available from within the Xcode console, or in Terminal."

Does this mean that we can use the Swift REPL in the Xcode debugger to explore running ObjC programs? That would be enormous fun, not to mention very powerful.

varenc 5 days ago 11 replies      
It seems like the only way to view the programming language documentation is on iBooks on an iOS device? For a programming book, this is ridiculous.

Edit: The latest version of OS X does support iBooks. Lets hope you have that.

kybernetyk 5 days ago 1 reply      
Looks nice. But I wish one could interop it with C++ like Obj-C.

As it is now I won't be able to use Swift because of that :(

sunnynagra 5 days ago 0 replies      
EDIT: Link is live now.

Here is the link to the online documentation if you don't want to download it on iBooks.


jaxytee 5 days ago 2 replies      
Swift has a built in option type

if let actualNumber = possibleNumber.toInt() {

    println("\(possibleNumber)  value: \ (actualNumber)")
} else {

    println("\(possibleNumber) could not be converted to an integer")

Nice to see the Apple's language developers embracing functional programming by providing a clean implementation of the Maybe Monad as well as support for closures.

yulaow 5 days ago 1 reply      
tlack 5 days ago 1 reply      
Really excited and surprised by this announcement. Anyone know the provenance of this language? Who built it, what are its intellectual roots?
rabino 5 days ago 1 reply      
Elm has had a "time traveler" debugger for a while http://debug.elm-lang.org/
MIT_Hacker 5 days ago 6 replies      
This will revolutionize programming education.

Interestingly enough, the time manipulation in Swift was inspired by a game called Braid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braid_(video_game)) released back in 2009.

This will help young programmers solidify the connection between giving the computer logical commands and what is outputted on the screen immediately.

Reminds me of how excited I was when Processing (http://www.processing.org/) was released which made it dead simple to interact with a screen and graphics. Didn't have live feedback, but it made it incredible easy to understand OOP.

chenster 5 days ago 0 replies      
About time! Objective-C is increasingly becoming inadequate for Apple software development. Apple knew that. They finally decided to do something about it. If it goes popular the same as Microsoft C#, that would be a huge win for both Apple and developers.
X-Istence 5 days ago 0 replies      
Complete history of variable state over execution time of a program is AWESOME!
lsllc 5 days ago 0 replies      
Looks a lot like golang meets haskell:

func makeIncrementer() -> (Int -> Int)

EDIT: Why the downvotes? was just an observation not a criticism. Looking forward to using it instead of Objective-C.

frik 5 days ago 0 replies      
The Swift lang syntax looks like a mixture of JS 6, Go and Object-C/Smalltalk - at least from the first sight.
be5invis 5 days ago 1 reply      
Looks like C# with .NET Native, some sort of.

Playground is interesting.

dang 5 days ago 1 reply      
Buried as dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7835099. (The idea is to have one discussion per major announcement on the front page.)
eliteraspberrie 5 days ago 0 replies      
I started reading the Swift Tour and couldn't stop. It's compiled, and has both functional and object-oriented features, and a nice syntax. I'm sold.


avenger123 5 days ago 0 replies      
This is exciting. I can see myself getting into this. Dabbled with Objective-C but it just didn't excite me.

If Apple's intent is to boost their developer base, this is one tremendous boost. It seems to have the best of both dynamic and static languages.

jaydz 5 days ago 0 replies      
Looks like the xcode beta is only available to members who paid $99 :(
msoad 5 days ago 0 replies      
For those of you who can't access the book because you don't have an Apple device I've uploaded screenshots of first chapter here.


I did it because the book was free.

wnissen 5 days ago 2 replies      
Still on an Objective-C runtime, so it's hard to see how the performance gains they claim are achievable, but otherwise having an interpreted version should be good for productivity.
tdicola 5 days ago 2 replies      
Haven't had a chance to look at the docs for it yet, but will LLVM be the compiler for it and will it support compiling Swift into its native bytecode?
Bytesouffle 5 days ago 2 replies      
https://itunes.apple.com/en/book/swift-programming-language/... direct link to iBook store).

Edit : Changed the link to en.

Does anybody have a direct link to the Xcode 6 beta ? Or mirror download link ? Thanks.

mmastrac 5 days ago 2 replies      
Anyone feel like converting the epub from iBooks to a PDF/HTML page we can read more easily?
niutech 5 days ago 0 replies      
The Swift language resource center is in the works at http://swiftlang.eu - right now it redirects to the Apple website.

Meanwhile, there is the Swift eBook at http://book.swiftlang.eu

sureshv 5 days ago 0 replies      
Direct Link: https://developer.apple.com/swift/

The guides/reference link doesn't work yet...

slig 5 days ago 1 reply      
Does this means that they're ditching Objective-C?
timanglade 5 days ago 0 replies      
Lets get together next week to talk about it :) http://www.meetup.com/swift-language/ (San Francisco / Silicon Valley
emehrkay 5 days ago 0 replies      
How difficult would it be to have that playground preview for other langs? Im willing to bet there is someone building a sublime extension right this minute
Nib 5 days ago 0 replies      
Guys, I'm not sure if anybody's noticed yet, but call it a co-incident or what(make the "what" "copy"), but, another programming language with near similar features already exists, though its not C based and some other stuff is quite different but, yeah, see this : http://www.linux.com/news/featured-blogs/200-libby-clark/725...
dferlemann 5 days ago 0 replies      
Feels like dynamic languages coupled with some smalltalk resemblance, plus the playground which is kind like Mathematica? Looks pretty awesome! I'd itchy to try it out...
outside1234 5 days ago 1 reply      
Why is this platform not JavaScript based (so we can leverage the largest ecosystem in the world) or Python based or anything-else-that-exists based?

In other news, has Android killed iOS yet so we can stop worrying about Apple? Can't happen soon enough.

coldcode 5 days ago 0 replies      
I as an Apple developer salute Swift. Yet more reasons to get jobs! Also anything that makes programming swifter is a plus.
hugabuga 5 days ago 0 replies      
Couldn't help to think about Greenspuns tenth rule[0] when I saw the release of Swift. Even though it's kind of neat with the REPL and at a first look xcode looks promising.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule

galvanist 5 days ago 0 replies      
Where are the low level lightweight concurrency/parallelism features?
chenster 5 days ago 0 replies      
What's to complain about? It's like Microsoft finally kills VB6 and moved on to C#. Adapt or become obsolete.
hayksaakian 5 days ago 2 replies      
serious question: why?
wuliwong 5 days ago 3 replies      
Ugh, none of the links work. :( Can't get the ibook, can't view the "guides and reference", can't download xcode 6 beta.
jason_dstillery 5 days ago 0 replies      
I can't find anything in the book or on the website about concurrency. I'm not familiar with the Apple programming ecosystem, how is concurrency handled? Is the lack of language-level support a concern or is everything shuffled off into libraries and the runtime?
Ixiaus 5 days ago 0 replies      
"Swift eliminates entire classes of unsafe code. Variables are always initialized before use, arrays and integers are checked for overflow, and memory is managed automatically."


alexgaribay 5 days ago 0 replies      
I'm super excited about this. I love Objective-C but I also enjoy all the nice features of a high-level language.
thedangler 5 days ago 0 replies      

Kind of looks like they took their logo too. LOL

ant_sz 5 days ago 0 replies      
After read some documents I think swift is a little like coffeescript but still contains some Go syntax.

It's like a scripting language very much. Quite amazing isn't it?

emehrkay 5 days ago 1 reply      
Looks like PHP (or any c-based lang). Exciting!
pt 5 days ago 1 reply      
swift-lang.org mentioned at the bottom of the page seems to be down.
slantedview 5 days ago 0 replies      
A quick glance through the book - looks like a nice language, certainly better than some of the stuff we use day to day.
yconst 5 days ago 0 replies      
I wonder if this brings us one step closer to developing on iOS...
pkrefta 5 days ago 0 replies      
I zipped .html + .css from the book - here you go guys :)


chenster 5 days ago 0 replies      
I'm happy today.
JimmaDaRustla 5 days ago 0 replies      
Love the "Done. Sold. Have me." comments when no one here has even used the language yet...
otterpro 5 days ago 0 replies      
This is truly a game changer for me. Finally, I can develop for ios/osx without the excruciating pain and torture of working with the antiquated and ugly syntax of obj-c.
_random_ 5 days ago 0 replies      
In what way is it innovative? Seems like a mix of recent features.
orionblastar 4 days ago 0 replies      
I have a question.

Why doesn't Apple try to make easier to learn and easier to use programming languages instead of focus on the more difficult ones like Objective-C?

Why not use BASIC, Python, Ruby on Rails, Java, or even Pascal for their new language so you get more people to become developers and make iOS and OSX apps in greater numbers because it is easier?

I mean they could have just used Monodevelop:http://monodevelop.com/

Made a tool to convert Winforms to Cocoa Forms to port some Visual Studio C# and Visual BASIC apps to iOS and OSX, and win over the Windows-Only developers to the Apple platforms?

This Swift language seems so hard to learn, almost like F# or something. Not as hard as Haskell, but for the average developer it is going to be painful to learn.

sunkencity 5 days ago 1 reply      
a better version of ipython notebook!
api 5 days ago 5 replies      
So they copied this idea for the IDE?


curveship 5 days ago 0 replies      
Am I the only one who thinks the name "Swift" sounds a lot like "Dart"?
AceJohnny2 5 days ago 0 replies      
This is completely unrelated to Swift, the Jabber IM app (and lib): https://swift.im/

Edit: I pointed this out as I'm curious about trademark/logo clash.

sequoia 5 days ago 0 replies      
"...and you dont even need to type semi-colons."

As an extremely paranoid & defensive Javascript developer, you shut your damn mouth!! :p /jokes

Metal Apples new graphics API apple.com
320 points by oflordal  5 days ago   130 comments top 16
klodolph 5 days ago 1 reply      
Anything that provides access to GPU command queues is welcome. It's been clear for a while that OpenGL and D3D are ill-suited to modern ways about thinking about GPUs. This also explicitly supports multithreaded clients, each with their own command queues.


The shading language appears to be precompiled (which is sorely missing from OpenGL) and based somewhat on C++11.


My concern is drivers: drivers for video cards on OS X haven't been as good as Windows drivers. That, and of course the specter of another platform-specific API. This invites a comparison with Mantle. I don't think either Metal or Mantle will "win", but they're good prototypes for the next generation of GPU APIs.

jarrett 5 days ago 7 replies      
It's somewhat scary to see new graphics APIs being introduced.

The fragmentation of OpenGL is enough of a headache, but at least it offers some semblance of "write once, run anywhere." The introduction of Mantle and Metal, plus the longstanding existence of Direct3d, makes me worry that OpenGL will get no love. And then we'll have to write our graphics code, three, four, or goodness knows how many times.

I know: It's not realistic to expect "write once, run anywhere" for any app that pushes the capabilities of the GPU. But what about devs like me (of whom there are many) that aren't trying to achieve AAA graphics, but just want the very basics? For us, "write once, run anywhere" is very attractive and should be possible. I can do everything I want with GL 2.1, I don't need to push a massive number of polys, I don't need a huge textures, and I don't need advanced lighting.

coldcode 5 days ago 1 reply      
This to me is more surprising than Swift. But it will make for difficult platform decisions. But since there are 4 game platforms already working on it (Unreal hasn't committed) maybe it's not a bad idea at all.
corysama 5 days ago 1 reply      
Any mention of hardware requirements? I'm betting this is 5s/Air-only. But, I'd love to be wrong.
pjmlp 5 days ago 2 replies      
So OpenGL seems to loose support on the platform that helped to make it relevant again.
higherpurpose 5 days ago 4 replies      
You can thank AMD for this one. This is exactly why I supported Mantle initially - not necessarily because I thought Mantle will replace DirectX and OpenGL, but because it would push all the others to adopt similar changes to their APIs.

And this is exactly what happened, first OpenGL (through AMD's extension for now at least), then Microsoft with DirectX 12 [1], and now Apple, too.

Before you get too excited, though, remember Mantle "only" improved the overall performance of Battlefield 4 by about 50%. It can probably get better than that, but don't expect "10x" improvement or anything close to it.

[1] - http://semiaccurate.com/2014/03/18/microsoft-adopts-mantle-c...


oneofthose 4 days ago 1 reply      
This seems to be Apple's answer to Google's RenderScript. It is too bad big companies (Google, Apple) are developing their own GPU software stack instead of building upon and furthering existing frameworks such as OpenCL. OpenCL desperately needs a kick in order to catch up with CUDA. Instead they are focusing on things like SyCL, hoping to catch up with already superior projects such as C++AMP. OpenCl should rather fix their poor specification and get implementers on the same page about it. The mobile community could have been a driving force. Instead, frustrated with what OpenCL is, mobile decided to roll their own. As always.
syjer 5 days ago 1 reply      
This one is quite surprising. I would have guessed that given the pervasive use of opengl(es) in their os, they would have advanced a azdo approach ( as described in http://www.slideshare.net/CassEveritt/approaching-zero-drive... ).
toksaitov 5 days ago 0 replies      
Judging by what we have it looks usable not only for graphics. Finally we got OpenCL on iOS. Kind of
abdophoto 4 days ago 1 reply      
This has to be a move towards the development of games on an Apple TV.
general_failure 5 days ago 1 reply      
Does this mean now that xplatform graphics code will be a thing of the past?
shmerl 5 days ago 5 replies      
Key questions:

1. Is it open and cross platform?

2. Is it going to be supported across all GPU vendors?

If either of those is no, than it's a failure from the start and just another walled garden thing.

vacri 5 days ago 0 replies      
Another framework, another needlessly generic word to play havoc with search.
pekk 5 days ago 1 reply      
Yet another special Apple-only lockin mechanism.
chrismorgan 4 days ago 1 reply      
I hate pages that deliberately break the functionality of the Space bar.
ausjke 5 days ago 3 replies      
Saw lots of HN news on Apple, I own absolutely no Apple devices, as I think while them are well made, the software ecosystem coming with it is similar to whatever Microsoft had before, i.e. essentially closed, and that is important to me, it made me to own zero Apple devices.

Am I alone here? I'm running Linux everywhere from home to my office for years, and my tablet/cellphone is Android-based.

Swift observations from Rusts original designer dreamwidth.org
314 points by porada  5 days ago   83 comments top 15
kibwen 4 days ago 0 replies      
To those wondering why Graydon is qualified in the title as just the "original" designer of Rust, it's because (as far as anyone seems to know) years of being a technical lead wore him down (lots of administrative tasks and infrastructural tasks, little coding) and the fact that the position of BDFL was foisted upon him unwillingly, to his chagrin. He abdicated the project last year, though I still keep hoping that we'll entice him back someday!
jmgrosen 5 days ago 3 replies      
He seems to generally like it -- similar to Rust in a lot of ways, but a little higher-level, which is appropriate for its intended uses (iOS and OS X apps). He nor I seem to think that it can replace Rust (especially if they don't open it up!), but it definitely seems like a compelling option.

EDIT: Does anyone know if it's possible to try it without a paid iOS / OS X dev license? I'd especially like to try the playground, but I'm not willing to dump $100 on it.

pornel 5 days ago 5 replies      
I hope ideas will flow the other way too, and Rust adopts some sugar from Swift.

I find `if let concrete = optional` sooo much nicer than `match optional { (concrete) => , _ => {} }`.

Rust has solid semantics that covers more than Swift. OTOH Apple has put their UX magic into the language's syntax. Some syntax shortcuts, like `.ShortEnumWhenInContext` are delightful.

The two combined will be the perfect language ;)

tptacek 4 days ago 4 replies      
What are the distinctive features of Rust that Swift has that aren't in some way derived from ObjC? (I'm sure there are some; I just don't know Rust.)
Pxtl 5 days ago 4 replies      
Aren't the interfaces-as-generics constraints also from c#? It seems to be c# more than anything else.
adamnemecek 4 days ago 1 reply      
Lack of expressions and a macro system are really unfortunate.
Tloewald 4 days ago 2 replies      
A lot of the features allegedly inspired by C# actually come directly from Objective-C. It's a decent discussion (I also skimmed the manual front to back after the presentation) but it's sad the writer appears ignorant of how advanced a language Objective-C is/was, especially since it significantly predated C++, let alone Java and C#.
lnanek2 4 days ago 1 reply      
He doesn't seem to know much about iOS or Objective-C due to that comment about parameter names probably being unused. You wouldn't be able to make meaningful method selectors calling into the code from Objective-C without them, since the names of the parameters are part of the method name in Objective-C.
pepper_chico 5 days ago 1 reply      
Does he knows something of Obj-C? Because a lot what he says coming from elsewhere was already well known in Obj-C, like named parameters, "protocols", etc. Which he barely mentions. I think in the light of Obj-C, the newer C# would be less mentioned.
pajju 4 days ago 0 replies      
There is the official Book coming from Apple: The Swift Programming Language by Apple Inc.

Link: https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-swift-programming-langu...

Hope it helps.

zak_mc_kracken 4 days ago 2 replies      
I think the author is seeing a little more than there actually is. There is a lot more overlap between Swift and C#/Java than with Rust. Actually, I see very little Rust in Swift, except for very trivial features that are present in 90% of C-based languages.

But hey, any opportunity to pimp your favorite language is fair.

knocte 4 days ago 1 reply      
Couple of things that are still not clear to me, even when people keep saying that it's similar to C#:

- How about Garbage Collection?

- Many mentions to "type inference", is it then a statically-typed language? Or is it hybrid?

CmonDev 4 days ago 3 replies      
"Protocols get to play double duty as either concrete types (in which case they denote a reference type you can acquire with as from any supporting type) and as type constraints on type parameters in generic code. This is a delightful convenience Rust stumbled into when designing its trait system and I'm glad to see other languages picking it up. I'm sure it has precedent elsewhere." - C# again.

PS: Apple says "Swift is an innovative new programming language"! Just like everything else they do lately!

oscargrouch 4 days ago 0 replies      
"I started work on the Swift Programming Language (wikipedia) in July of 2010. I implemented much of the basic language structure, with only a few people knowing of its existence. A few other (amazing) people started contributing in earnest late in 2011, and it became a major focus for the Apple Developer Tools group in July 2013.The Swift language is the product of tireless effort from a team of language experts, documentation gurus, compiler optimization ninjas, and an incredibly important internal dogfooding group who provided feedback to help refine and battle-test ideas. Of course, it also greatly benefited from the experiences hard-won by many other languages in the field, drawing ideas from Objective-C, Rust, Haskell, Ruby, Python, C#, CLU, and far too many others to list."

- Chris Lattner, http://nondot.org/sabre/

beyondcompute 4 days ago 1 reply      
Yeah, that's all good. But why call people who understand that programming environments should not be opaque (and not violate elementary laws of design by obscuring readings of system's state) "livecoding nerds"? Really, why? :)
Google+ broke our trust zdnet.com
306 points by andor  14 hours ago   221 comments top 41
bane 10 hours ago 5 replies      
> Google+ embodied the Internet's cardinal sin: It broke everything it touched

I think this is the most important single line of the piece. G+ was pretty broken from the get go despite some promising ideas. But instead of focusing around what was working, Google simply amplified all the broken garbage -- then spread it around everywhere, making everything toxic, cancerous.

It's one of those many weird cases where you sit there, hands on your desk, mouth agape looking at some Google property that was fucked over by the G+ project and just ask yourself "doesn't anybody at Google use this garbage?". Because the issues are so immediate and so obvious, it's impossible that nobody raised some red flags.

Which leaves two possibilities:

- Google is composed of such inept socially awkward people that no red flags were raised and they all just proceeded on course doo dee doo doo dee (a scenario I find very hard to believe)

- Red flags were raised and simply brushed aside.

The first scenario is hard to believe because it presumes mass and gross incompetence on behalf of most of the employees at Google. But I know googlers, I've been interviews by Google, I've had various interactions with people from Google, and most of them just seem like normal folks from a variety of backgrounds.

As more and more leaks out it sounds like the second scenario is where it's at, and the question is why? Was it just some dumb headed attempt to extract any money possible for the major shareholders by turning the brand into garbage? Or was it just an honest attempt at unifying the properties, just managed at an absolutely amateurish level?

It's all so senseless and stupid and now everything is broken.

The sad thing is, this is something I see all the time, one hopelessly broken pet project is carried by the good idea fairy to some senior manager, and they being a cascade of failures across the rest of the company on something they probably have convinced themselves is just a big gamble with lots of upside. By the time the damage is done and widely recognized, the exec is out the door on their golden parachute leaving the remaining veterans to pick up the pieces and unfuck things. Except in this case, the ultimate party responsible holds half of the majority voting rights and continues to blissfully push socially inept product ideas. The only remediation is a long unfucking process and some possible minor impact on share price, meaning he can only buy 2 300' yachts instead of 2 350' yachts.

IgorPartola 12 hours ago 3 replies      
I don't get it. So Brin announces to the world that Google+ is the new sliced bread in 2011. Then he tells a small group of people that he thinks he personally should not have been involved with G+. Also the leader of the G+ project leaves (one month after the project started? One month after Brin had his candid talk recently?)

Where in this is the broken trust? What is the author actually upset about? Seems to me like in 2011 Brin and co. thought Google+ was the future. Now Brin simply is admitting that he personally might not have been the right person to take this on and perhaps it was a bad idea (not clear from the poorly written article). On top of that the author is trying to make a story out of the project leader leaving precisely because there was no story there.

I think this piece is terribly written and there is no story behind it. G+ is not my favorite product but I think this is just an outburst of anger that does not deserve our attention.

clsec 12 hours ago 4 replies      
I jumped on board early when I received an invite. I despised FB and was looking for for something that might actually resemble the tribe.net model of freedom and anonymity.

Unfortunately, I was told that I had to use my real name and signed up accordingly.

Everything was going along fine for about the first 9 months until I got into a small flame war with a woman in Canada about Scientologists (I used to work for some). That turned out to be the end of G+ for me.

It seems that the woman reported me for using a pseudonym, which to me and a few of my friends I obviously wasn't. I was livid! I immediately protested loud and clear in my timeline. One of my "hooped" IRL friends works at Yahoo! and told me that he had good connections at Google and could probably fix it for me. And that if he couldn't do that that he could at least vouch for me.

As he was trying to work his magic the pressure from Google was getting stronger. I had a big notice across my profile telling me that if I didn't provide legal proof of who I was that my account would be suspended in a week. I received the same threats in my gmail. So I started trying to work with them on this matter only to find that I was dealing with bots. I was beyond frustrated!

A few days later my friend came back to me and told me that there didn't seem to be much that he could do. I sure as hell didn't want to send them my my ID or birth certificate! So I caved in, scanned a court document with my full name on it and a judge's signature, and gmail'd it it.

I should mention that by this point Google had decided to lock my profile and place a huge notice across it demanding documents.

It took almost a full 2 weeks for them to get back to me and say that my document was legit. Well, duh!!

With my new found "legal" status I continued to use G+ for about another year or so. But as time marched on I became more and more disillusioned with Google and their products and interacted less and less with G+.

Then June 5th 2013 happened and I was introduced to the world of Edward Snowden. I immediately went and deleted everything from my profile and timeline (no small chore!). I then put a notice on my "about" page stating that due to privacy issues with Google and the NSA that this account is no longer active.

I now only use my gmail account, have been a happy DDG and IXquick user since before this all went down, and haven't been back to G+ since.

wfjackson 13 hours ago 4 replies      
If there's one video that shows off the purposefully confusing Google+ and Youtube integration mess, its this one of a woman literally crying because of it.

Warning: Strong language


spodek 11 hours ago 3 replies      
A suggestion for Google to save itself regarding G+:

Donate some of its engineers' time to fix and revitalize Diaspora -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_%28social_network%29 -- or one of its peers or something along its original vision.

It could achieve its goal of disrupting Facebook, give users their privacy back, and by releasing the source code, could role back its role in maintaining the code or policing the community.

It could declare victory and move on, leaving its users more satisfied than they are now.

diminish 13 hours ago 6 replies      
As an intensive user, everywhere on Google products, I feel the Microsoftization. This includes documentation with corporate jargon, the bloated and confusing Hangout fiasco, the frustrating way to connect multiple identities together.

Did they hire any corporate UX/UI/branding/marketing/documentation guys from Redmond recently, after Larry Page's CEOship?

Htsthbjig 13 hours ago 2 replies      
What made Google special in the past was having principles and walking the talk.

Those days when Altavista wanted to force people into watching noisy pop up advertisements with annoying colors before you could search anything, and this small company decided to just display text.

The days when everybody was onto portals to make the web enclosed inside gatekeepers hand and Google brought freedom.

Those days are over. Just the other day I had them trying to change my name in gmail and complete the information I gave them when gmail was invite only like my birthday or a picture of me.

When I refused I had them INSULTING ME!! Something alike "it seems you are so alone". Wow, if you don't use their "social private web", or any other social site you are alone, even if you have a blog with thousands of people visiting, and real friends you can talk, kiss or hug.

I am looking for Google alternatives right now.

Pxtl 8 hours ago 0 replies      
My problem with Google+ isn't the unification of Google's social platform. That makes absolute sense. The problem with Google+ is that it's way too opinionated.

It's a platform, not a product. A platform has to bend to the needs of its users, and those "users" aren't necessarily the people posting the comments - it's also the people hosting the comments on their YouTube pages and whatnot.

I appreciate wanting Plus to be backed by a "real" ID, but pseudonym support that fully anonymizes the user (and controls over whether pseudonymous users are allowed to post to your pages) should have been a day 1 feature, for example.

brownbat 2 hours ago 0 replies      
Using and loving G+ and Hangouts to this day. I like how easy it is to get a group chat or a video chat going in the browser, and I like the increased control over sharing I have, especially relative to FB. (I can even share with people who don't want to log in because they hate the service. My FB friends cannot.)

I'm trying to sift through the complaints to see if they're relevant to me, but haven't had much luck so far.

1. Everything

Complaints on the order of "it broke everything" just seem hyperbolic and silly.

2. Nymwars

I think they should allow pseudonyms, but I don't blame the company for trying build something tied a little tighter to real world identities after fighting a decade long war against fraud and spam behind the scenes. I feel like it's within their prerogative to say they're building an identity service, because pseudonym based logins are already widely available. Faulting them for that choice is a bit like saying you don't like Gmail because you think email is stupid.

3. YouTube

Among the other major complaints is that they broke YouTube comments, ie, the worst den of inane and offensive comments on the internet since 4chan. Good for them, the team deserves a medal.

Someone made a mashup just to illustrate the depravity of comments on the video site a few years ago:http://comments.thatsaspicymeatball.com/

4. Popularity

Probably the other tacit criticism is that Google launched a service that didn't immediately trounce all other social media sites, delivering everything for everyone. It's used by a mere 350 million people. It's been criticized for that number being only a third of its registered base, but that seems perfectly on track or better than estimates for other social media sites. Twitter's active userbase is probably roughly 20%, for example:


It's weird that a site with 350 million active monthly users is considered an embarrassing failure. I'm sure lots of services would be happy to trade userbases with G+.

It had a few cool features. It wasn't world changing. I feel like it hit some of the Segwey effect, a victim of its hype more than of its failings.

5. Aesthetics.

I feel this is the most inarguable complaint. Some people don't like the style of G+, don't like its approach to usability, or find its sharing system needlessly complex or confusing. By all means, these individuals should not use the service. I don't like the look and feel of Pinterest. I shouldn't use Pinterest. To each her own. I worry some authors subtly shift this argument from "I don't like the feel of it," or even, "My friends don't like it," to "It is a failure of design that no one should use." Seems a bit unfair.

I believe there are good usability guidelines, but I don't subscribe to the belief that there is a perfect one size fits all, that all implementations of any service will eventually converge to one platonic form. Competition is good because we all like different things, each find different styles more intuitive.

I'd be happy to consider other arguments, but so far allegations of the service's abject horribleness seem somewhat exaggerated.

cromwellian 7 hours ago 1 reply      
I think it is pretty refreshing for an executive to be self critical and admit big mistakes. Sergey sounded authentic in that interview.

Scott Forestall was axed for Apple Maps, but seriously, you rewrite a Maps service from the ground up from scratch and race to release it in iOS6, of course it's going to be beta quality for a long time, since these things take time to mature. I highly doubt the decision to include it in that state was solely Scotts.

I like to see companies admit major strategic mistakes as opposed to pretending everything is awesome for all time. (and no, Tim Cook's letter was a kind of non-apology, only a single sentence really admitted any mistake 'We fell short of our commitment')

sbarre 13 hours ago 2 replies      
Is it even possible to reverse course on the G+ integrations now?

Would Google even want to, even if everyone agreed it was a bad idea in the first place?

galfarragem 11 hours ago 3 replies      
To change status quo you need to provide enough value to motivate that change:

Google Search: Search experience was completely disrupted. Since that moment people could focus on what they needed (no disturbing ads) and be more efficient.

Gmail: Google innovated and simplified a lot email experience. You can easily measure the importance of Gmail to people by the importance of Gmail to the Google brand.

Chrome: As an early adopter, I could feel specially the speed difference. I always knew that would be a matter of time till Chrome control the market.

Google+: I never understood what value Google was adding to social networks. Facebook at the time didn't need to be disrupted also. After some time G+ went in the direction of Linkedin but couldn't add enough value to make people to change also. IMHO Google+ weakens Google brand. As simple as that. Should be closed? That is a good question.

afarrell 13 hours ago 1 reply      
For some reason, my email address is now linked to a name that is not mine. I've not yet bothered to figure out how to change it, but I wish for the sake of trans people that this error had been more common.
johnchristopher 13 hours ago 3 replies      
Just to be clear:

> OPINION: One month after creator and leader of Google+, Vic Gundotra, quietly quit, Google chief Sergey Brin told a conference audience last week that involvement in Google+ was "a mistake." He made the exact opposite statement in 2011.

Whose involvement are we talking about here ? Brin, Gundotra or Google ?

> If only someone could have stepped in and course-corrected Google+.


> Oh, right. Someone could have.


> The same someone that just told the world, "heh, oops" and walked away to go retreat back into himself, and play with his cars.

Is that someone Brin (who could have and has plenty of money to buy cars) or Gundotra (who could have and left the company a month ago - with enough money to play with cars I suppose) ?

(sorry for hand walking me but the style is confusing me)

RexRollman 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Google+ was the beginning of the end where using Google service was concerned for me. These days, I use Google only as a search engine and nothing more.
adam74 13 hours ago 1 reply      
I miss the days of Google Labs and twenty percent time.
higherpurpose 13 hours ago 6 replies      
I wish both Google and Microsoft would understand that you can't force change down users' throats. It needs to come naturally. They need to want it, and have it grow organically.

Sure, forcing them will definitely bring you bigger "adoption" (for lack of a better word) faster, but it will also build up a lot of resentment, potentially negating any advantage you might have from ramming the change through, in the long run.

A lot of people didn't understand Twitter in the first 3+ years, but it still managed to grow organically, because people wanted to join it over the years. Google tried to push Google+ to its 1 billion users within 2 years, with seemingly very little advantage for the users. What did they expect?

Same for Microsoft when it comes to pushing Metro to PC users who have been perfectly happy with their PC interface, but Microsoft wanted to force them to use a tablet interface on a PC. Why? Because Microsoft said so, and because they would get to flash "bigger numbers" to developers for "Metro users". The actual experience of the user on a desktop was barely a distant concern.

If you're a big corporation, and you can't grow a new business organically, then tough luck. Maybe you shouldn't be in that market then.

dm2 12 hours ago 2 replies      
I'd love to see Google+ turn into a LinkedIn and Facebook killer. I just have no use for Google+ at the moment. I don't really like the tiles display and would prefer a list.

The YouTube integration doesn't bother me at all because 1) I don't post YouTube comments, and 2) it's easy enough to just create a separate account for using with services that you don't want associated with your main Google account.

facepalm 11 hours ago 0 replies      
To be fair the SMS+Hangouts integration seems to be what users want. Everybody and their dog is using Whatsapp by now, which is basically the same thing (I think - haven't used it).
vpeters25 4 hours ago 0 replies      
I think G+ could've owned the "social internet" without the "real id" rule.

They had the chance to drive facebook and twitter out of business... they blew it.

muzz 7 hours ago 0 replies      
It sounds like Sergey is saying that his involvement in Google+ was a mistake, not that that the company going down that path was a mistake. I think the author is taking the word "mistake" out of context:

"It was probably a mistake for me to be working on anything tangentially related to social to begin with."

yuhong 6 hours ago 0 replies      
I like to submit things like this to HN for a reason: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3106555&cid=41288357

And BTW I am thinking that the EU privacy policy fiasco is probably related. And to think that the EU courts recently ruled that current data protection laws requires that search engines must remove results on request.

infinity 10 hours ago 0 replies      
So far it has always been a good policy for me to take these lines literally:

>> Googles mission is to organize the worlds information

>> and make it universally accessible ...


tomrod 13 hours ago 3 replies      
I've been using G+ consistently for a week now after signing off from a competing social network. I thoroughly enjoy it so far. Why is G+ dead in the water?

EDIT: Fatfingered a random exclamation point

compsci_mofo 12 hours ago 1 reply      
Google is interesting. Choc full of academically bright people, yet collectively dumb as fuck. Shame there is not a phd for common sense or being down to Earth.
_random_ 7 hours ago 1 reply      
"Brin told ... that ... he was kind of a weirdo and "It was probably a mistake for me to be working on anything tangentially related to social to begin with." - I respect him more now. Being late to market was probably a bigger mistake though.
model-m 6 hours ago 0 replies      
Google+ made it just a little too clear that Google is in the business of remembering everything about those who interact with it.

The attitude of "Google knows best what's good for you, and doesn't have to justify itself or even acknowledge your objections" also doesn't mesh with what a social network should be, in the minds of many.

bowlofpetunias 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Google+ is just the most high profile symptom. The problem started when Google started using strategies against the fundamental nature of the internet.

We always assumed that Google was "good" because they understood and embraced the open and interconnected nature of the internet. They even stated so explicitly.

Google+, but also many other Google strategies follow the same pattern: trying to build walls instead of connecting, making things closed instead of more open.

tlogan 9 hours ago 0 replies      
What is the future of Google+? Is Google trying to pivot it into something different? Or Google+ will be just a platform (for login, profile info, etc).
neurobro 10 hours ago 0 replies      
When someone now says doing something was a mistake, I sure hope the statement is in stark contrast with their sentiments at the time they were doing it. Otherwise, why do it?
fzltrp 11 hours ago 2 replies      
I don't think that G+ was a mistake. The only real issue is the real name policy, though I fail to see how they'd be able to enforce it. People could create alternate email addresses with fake names (and some did), and use it when they want to participate social "i-events" without giving up their id. It's been like that before G+, and it would only take a small move from them to correct it. Of course, the downside of this is that they wouldn't be able to claim a number of real users. But could any social site?

Btw, am I the only one to find the article title offensive, and unworthy of a place like zdnet? I wasn't a regular reader of their columns, I don't think that will help.

andyidsinga 9 hours ago 0 replies      
> Google+ broke our trust

Google Reader did it for me. ..and did it for every product where I'm on paying $. I have hardly used google+ and I haven't missed a thing.

chaser7016 9 hours ago 1 reply      
Google Buzz and now Google+.

Google stop trying to be Facebook! You need to change course and focus on the consumer(customer service) & their privacy.

Otherwise others will and are starting to eat your lunch!

pasbesoin 6 hours ago 0 replies      
"Opt in".

If you like e.g. "single sign-on", it should be your choice to set it up and participate. Not coercion. Not coercion holding your existing investment in various products (of which Google was and is acquiring ever more) hostage.

If what you are offering is of benefit to your users (should I use the word "customers"? -- a whole other discussion), you should be able to sell it to them -- on an "opt-in", "I'd like to use this feature" basis.

As Google+ rolled out, it became evident that it was anything but this.

True names. Then the stories -- accurate or not -- of account deletions.

I was damned if I was going to risk my longstanding Gmail account for the sake of trying out Plus. Fortunately, the integration was not so quick and thorough that I was at that time compelled to participate in Plus in order to keep that account. (Sign up for Gmail now, and you get a Plus profile, like it or not.)

Plus has some nice technical features, and some of the conversation I intersect (under a separate Google identity that I can afford to lose) during my limited interaction with it, consist of more thoughtful and interesting content.

But I'll never trust it -- Plus, that is.

Google showed us all, with Plus, the limits of their advocacy for us, the users.

serf 12 hours ago 2 replies      
I think many of the policies that have been changed towards the usage of a real name are intrusive to privacy, but I have no pity on people who require privacy and lose it after willingly continuing to use a service that is known to conduct such practices.
dang 8 hours ago 0 replies      
We changed the title from "Thanks for nothing, jerkface" to the first subtitle of the article, which (a) isn't linkbait and (b) is more or less what the article seems to be about.
pistle 13 hours ago 2 replies      
That's a lot of counterhate. Not wholly unwarranted, but severely one-sided.

Corporate products are not for dissidents or the privacy-focused. Period. The end. You need to find alts designed to be private and/or pay to not be subsidized for the profitizing of YOU - whoever you are or want to be.

Google wants to fold you into their walled garden by tilting all their products towards each other. Shocking. I can't think of any other... oh yeah right... EVERY massive tech company does this. Otherwise one of the other massive tech companies will eat their lunch within 10 years. You are the frog. They are the scorpion.

Also, part of force g+ is what you are seeing grow widely. Enough people are harmed or disgusted with the level of gaming of anonymity that the trolls have achieved that the real identity movement has grown pretty quickly.

I doubt large corporate interests will be able to find it profitable, over any minimally significant span of time, to preserve privacy and be a platform for social change/justice. The unintended consequence is also being a platform for the lulz. Don't be evil meets don't be bankrupt. If your platform is a cesspool, nobody will pay to swim there.

hellbreakslose 12 hours ago 0 replies      
Oh look its another goth chick blogging about Google and whats bad and whatever... Go back in your cave... noone told you to get involved with Google+ neither Google will go with you cause you based your life around Google+ ...

Why people nowadays take everything so granted... Guess what before 90 years people were going to the toilet...hmmm on their GARDENS!

raldi 13 hours ago 2 replies      
> With Google+, it became clear that we were all little more than webs of flesh spun over packages of saleable data.

What data is allegedly being sold, and who is Google selling it to?

adwf 13 hours ago 1 reply      
News flash: Company co-founder and senior executive publicly supports own products!
Apple Introduces iOS 8 apple.com
302 points by J-H  5 days ago   205 comments top 34
untog 5 days ago 7 replies      
Call/SMS integration is great. It's worth noting that Google had absolutely everything they needed to do this years ago, and just... didn't. Hangouts is still inferior to iMessage today. It's a real shame.

Edit: this extensibility stuff might be enough to tempt me back to Apple from Android, at last. Third party keyboards, too (I've gotten quite attached to the Android swiping stuff). Honestly, at this point, I'm not sure what keeps me on Android. I confidently predict that iOS Active Notification usage will be far higher than on Android, even though Android has had it for years.

sz4kerto 5 days ago 4 replies      
There are two big things here:

Health: it's stepping on the toes of many partners, but might be groundbreaking. It's extremely hard to crack healtcare, it's very closed, defensive system of people and bureaucracy, Apple might just have the power to do it.

Extensibility: intents are basically _the_ reason Android can work so much better in many cases than iOS. I hope MS will bring it to WP very soon.

eertami 5 days ago 4 replies      
I don't have an iPhone, but I just can't understand why the keyboard cannot be lowercase when you're writing in lowercase. I just don't understand the motivation.
dpcan 5 days ago 4 replies      
Still no user accounts on iPad. The only thing I want, and 8 versions in, it's still not there. Why I can't create a login for my kids on my iPad that hides my mail, calendar, certain games, etc? I don't understand why this isn't possible.
jwcrux 5 days ago 2 replies      
I'm personally excited about the possibility of creating an "Emergency Card" (http://www.apple.com/ios/ios8/health/) that's accessible from the lock screen.

Currently, I use a screen-shotted contact screen as my wallpaper for my ICE contact - just in case the worst were to happen. This will let me put more information, and might even let me have a wallpaper again!

RivieraKid 5 days ago 4 replies      
"Huge for developers. Massive for everyone else."

"Completely new. Completely Mac."

I find meaningless slogans like these really disgusting and annoying. And it's not just Apple, every second startup does this.

Osmium 5 days ago 1 reply      
So so happy to see the SceneKit API make it to iOS. Even though 'minor' compared to some of the other announcements, it was the number one thing I was looking for in today's keynote, and it was nice to see it featured. Can't wait to start using it.
jevinskie 5 days ago 0 replies      
Wow, real dynamic linking. Xcode even let me do so when targeting 7.1. Does anyone know if you will be able to submit apps to the AppStore that use dynamic frameworks while still deploying to < iOS 8?
jordan0day 5 days ago 0 replies      
The family sharing looks like a great idea that is way overdue. Hopefully it works as easily as the marketing material indicates.
bitsoda 5 days ago 0 replies      
Apple's iOS support for older products has been stellar, though I'm betting iOS 8 will be the last update the iPad mini, iPad 2, and iPhone 4S receive -- they will have had a good run of four years (except for mini) by the time iOS 9 is released.
sigzero 5 days ago 1 reply      
You can finally leave group MMS! That is awesome.
J-H 5 days ago 2 replies      
The new texting suggestions in QuickType are awesome (if it works as suggested).
moyaRD 5 days ago 1 reply      
Impress by All the announcements for developer in the WWDC.But taking the perspective of a enduser, there are key features i was hopping to get in iOS 8 that i didn't:

-Spotlight Integration For third Party Apps.

-Multi-User Support Or Guest Mode

-iMessage For Android

-App Trials

-Fixing The Music App ( Artis-Album View is broken)

-Third Party Default Apps

the_watcher 5 days ago 0 replies      
HealthKit and HomeKit are both really exciting (probably going to look at smartlocks now in particular). However, I'm easily most excited about being able to leave a group text.
MasterScrat 4 days ago 0 replies      
Mobile Safari now has WebGL enabled by default. How the hell isn't that bigger news?!

Look eg here to get an idea of what it means for webapp: http://www.photonstorm.com/html5/a-first-look-at-what-ios8-m...

slipshod 5 days ago 1 reply      
Totally on a tangent here, but I find myself disappointed, again.

I'm a long time hobbyist programmer, got my start back in the days of Apple IIe, got my first Mac in 1984...and I'm still not switching back to iPhone until I can write my own software and run it on my own phone without paying Apple for the privilege.

I'm waiting for two simple words: "Unknown sources". Guess I have to wait some more. Not sure how low Apple's market share will have to go before they start allowing it.

Can't say I love programming for Android, Java just doesn't feel right to me, but I'm sticking with it as long as I can write my own software, run it on my phone or tablet, share it with others, even sell it without Google's permission.

yalogin 5 days ago 1 reply      
The extensions for apps look very promising. I don't think Android intents provide this kind of deep integration between apps. But I would wait for some one to confirm that part.
ZanyProgrammer 5 days ago 1 reply      
I was really hoping for split screen multitasking (which Windows 8 on tablets does a good job of). I heard it was possible, but was having problems getting it out the door in time. I really hope it comes out in the final version of iOS 8, because that's the one thing that would tempt be to get a Surface over the next iteration of the iPad.
nachteilig 5 days ago 0 replies      
It wasn't made clear in the keynote and the page doesn't mention it--I hope this includes sharing contacts with "Family Sharing". That'll be huge for helping my older family members keep a coherent address book.
crusso 5 days ago 0 replies      
I disagree. Continuity by itself will be a tremendous addition and well-worth the upgrade. It implies not only some App/OSX integration, but also some nifty telecommunications integration.
samirmenon 5 days ago 3 replies      
This was interesting:

"Touch ID- For the first time, youll have the option of using Touch ID to sign in to third-party apps theres no need to enter a password. Your fingerprint data is protected and is never accessed by iOS or other apps."

Will this be used significantly by developers?

gnopgnip 5 days ago 1 reply      
The do not disturb sounds great. Does this mean the recipient or the sender sets it?
FPSDavid 5 days ago 0 replies      
I have to say, I'm pretty impressed with the amount of stuff they've packed into iOS 8. Looks like it'll be more than enough to easily rip me away from jailbroken iOS 7.
ksk 4 days ago 0 replies      
I have read through the entire text on that page and I still have not found the answer to the question "What makes iOS 8 the worlds most advanced mobile operating system?".
Jordan15 5 days ago 1 reply      
Sounds minor, but I would have loved to have been able to change the SMS screen so I could have a black background instead of a white one. Is it that hard to do?
y14 5 days ago 2 replies      
The mac integration for calls is great.
samuelb 5 days ago 0 replies      
Download iOS 8 for every device. (I'm downloading at 4MB/s)http://i.trackr.fr/tutoriel-telecharger-et-installer-ios-80-...
nicolime 4 days ago 0 replies      
Share the latest about Swift here! Be part of the biggest page for the language. Looking for admins now. https://www.facebook.com/swiftofficial
dang 5 days ago 1 reply      
We changed the url for this story from http://techcrunch.com/2014/06/02/apple-introduces-ios-8. If we pick the wrong url, happy to change it again, so let us know. The goal is to have one discussion about each significant announcement, and have the best url for each.
espitia 5 days ago 0 replies      
Really, what does android have on ios that mainstream user would want?
d1cd 5 days ago 0 replies      
The attention to deal is mind boggling. If you missed the presentation, they said how many time they spent just trying to design a proper trash can.
Istof 5 days ago 0 replies      
I am surprised that we see more then one submission about iOS 8 on this site (if you take into account the curation)
exodust 4 days ago 0 replies      
"Coming This Fall"

Let me get my US-centric conversion calculator out... Fall > Autumn, carry the one, add 2, and oh look it's "coming this Spring".

pmelendez 5 days ago 3 replies      
>"Plus, it also knows who youre talking to, which is crazy. By knowing who youre talking to, it will send up predictions that are right for the type of conversation you have with that particular person."

This is a bit scary... This means that Apple not only knows who I talk to but now actually maintain an index on how I talk with everyone. 1984 is getting closer and closer.

HomeKit apple.com
298 points by taylorbuley  5 days ago   139 comments top 20
zmmmmm 5 days ago 9 replies      
Dear Apple, please for the love of god and the good of everyone, get together with Google and iron out a common protocol for this stuff. Don't make this one of your competitive technologies designed to fragment the world into Apple and not-Apple. Home automation is just dying to take off and there's a pile of gold for everyone if you just show a tiny bit of cooperation to get it started ... And you can all still sue each other afterwards if you like about the design of the light switches or whatever turns you on, but can we please just let the industry move forward first?
untog 5 days ago 8 replies      
Shrug. Maybe I'm stuck in the past, but am I the only one not really excited for this kind of thing? Turning lights, air conditioning on and off isn't exactly a huge problem in my life.
gergles 5 days ago 2 replies      
Here's hoping the "common protocol" they mentioned in the keynote is Z-Wave (strongly suggested base on Tim's use of the word "scenes" and the vendor list they put up) and not some Apple proprietary garbage. I'm still bitter about FaceTime being an 'open standard'.
Frozenlock 5 days ago 1 reply      
Dear Apple, please use industry standards.

BACnet is a ISO, ASHRAE and ANSI protocol.

julianpye 5 days ago 1 reply      
The critical part here is not standards and not even the usability from a graphical UI perspective, but who is put in control by the technology. Home automation has always faced this difficult hurdle.In most families, the lightswitch, a thermostat, etc belong to everyone who wants to use it and who is near it. I like Siri being in control, but she will have to be like a Butler that can bridge conflicts if this is to make it beyond single-person households into family homes.
tmuir 5 days ago 1 reply      
Does anyone have any shred of information about this at all? Since when do placeholder pages completely devoid of any details whatsoever make it to the top of HN?
tdrnd 5 days ago 2 replies      
This seems a lot like a response to Google's Nest acquisition.

Google and Apple are rapidly moving in to an area with a lot of activity. There has been a recent surge of home automation startups and platforms like Revolv (http://revolv.com/), SmartThings (http://www.smartthings.com/), WigWag (http://www.wigwag.com/). One of the problems they are addressing is how to marge multiple different home automation standards (Z-Wave, ZigBee, Bluetooth Smart, 6LoWPAN). Presumably the new Apple HomeKit will be based on a single standard, Bluetooth Smart, given the Apple / iBeacon rollout.

There are also a bunch of more generic development platforms around, like relayr (http://relayr.io/) and Thingsquare (http://www.thingsquare.com/), that are targeting the device manufacturers directly. Will be interesting to see what impact Apple will have on the growth of this market, and the technology choices. Apple isn't always right (and neither is Google).

rblatz 5 days ago 0 replies      
From what I've seen, it looks like you will modify your existing iOS app to register with the HomeKit subsystem. This will give HomeKit hooks into the existing control functionality that is in the app. IE Nest will register that they have a thermostat and this is how to turn the temp up down.
joezydeco 5 days ago 1 reply      
So is this another MFI-type program? Am I going to need to design in some Apple-authorized chip to enable the handshake?

If it's bluetooth LE, can I expect to get decent range across the footprint of a home?

logn 5 days ago 0 replies      
HealthKit. HomeKit. I think we need to resolve the ethical and regulatory issues in our industry regarding government/marketing use of this data before it's prudent to use any product based on these technologies or similar ones.
bennyg 5 days ago 3 replies      
Now if a ton more hardware manufacturers would start designing around automation - like a washing machine that automatically started drying your clothes next, and an app that could see how dry they are and ask if you want to keep going, etc.

Or an oven I could preheat from my couch.

kosei 5 days ago 0 replies      
I hope this is not just handled through Bluetooth, but can be accessed via wireless as well. The idea of being able to leave air conditioning off in my house until I'm leaving the office, or to turn off all lights while outside of my home sounds incredible (or check to make sure that they're off). But if I have to be within my home to do everything, it'll turn this from a must-have for me to a nice-to-have very quickly.
dmritard96 5 days ago 1 reply      
don't mean to spam, but can the opensource world just do something better? clearly apple is going to use some super apple only thing...and always will

I tried a while back, and it looks awfully similar to what apple is doing...I use it all the time, manages my lights, my server, my IR electronics, through the UI or on a schedule. Has macros, etc. doesn't have the fancy detection features although at the time those were just starting to be talked about. Wouldn't be a hard extension.https://github.com/dandroid88/webmote

There are better ones out there, but my main point is that is some recent grad can hack this out on some nights and weekends, why are we waiting for apple , and verizon, and att and comcast and google....

collypops 4 days ago 0 replies      
HomeKit, for the authentic "lock-in" experience
chiph 4 days ago 0 replies      
It'd be interesting to tie this in with geofencing, so that I'd know I left the garage door open before I get too far away.
twothamendment 5 days ago 1 reply      
I've been working on my own pile of HA scripts, hacks and controls - just for the fun of it. When I heard Google was buying nest and a security camera company and now Apple is jumping in - I'm glad I'll have my own. I don't care for either company to know exactly what is going on in my house. I do want my house to yell at me when the A/C is running and windows are open or the garage door is left open when I leave. There will always be a market for the big names, but this is one cloud I'll keep out of my hosue.
stripe 4 days ago 0 replies      
Building automation is already available for all your automation needs. Quite expensive but working well. I cannot see what Apple brings to the table other than control devices. Big automation vendors will probably just write a wrapper for that custom Apple protocol and be done with it.
intothev01d 5 days ago 1 reply      
favorite new feature by far. just awesome.
h00k 5 days ago 0 replies      
... AllJoyn, anyone?


quackerhacker 5 days ago 0 replies      
Wow!!! Whoever did the write up for Homekit had to have seen the MIT workaround for using Siri and an audrino to open a garage door. What a nice subtle "props," from Apple.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7542985

A sealed bottle garden thriving after 40 years without fresh air or water dailymail.co.uk
296 points by Tomte  1 day ago   133 comments top 30
mapt 1 day ago 6 replies      
So in a symbiotic bacteria/fungi/plant ecosystem, I can understand why CO2, H2O, and O2 might be able to remain in balance. But decomposition produces not only CO2, but CO, CH4, nitrate chemistry... I have trouble understanding why this cycle isn't at least a little bit leaky, since it seems like some of the trace gasses wouldn't automatically have all of the biological, solar, and marine sinks available in nature. I would be interested to know how the internal pressure of this experiment fluctuates due to phase transitions, especially chemical reactions which could potentially produce phase transitions that are not thermally or biologically reversible in the vicinity of STP.
wmeredith 1 day ago 2 replies      
Oh, hell, how did a Daily Mail link get to the front page? This is a british tabloid. You may as well be debating the veracity of a story about a wolf boy discovered in the wild.
afternooner 1 day ago 2 replies      
What I'm more amused by is the level of scepticism over an self contained eco-system. In order for any eco-system, either contained or not contained, there has to be much greater tolerances to extreme conditions that we generally acknowledge. In truth, outside of absolute extremes where organic life is simply impossible because or either denaturing or absolute destruction of organic material, life will exist. It's also entirely possible that this bottle now contains bacteria, fungi, or other organisms that are much more efficient at breaking down the organic material left by the dying plant mater.
murbard2 1 day ago 2 replies      
A clear balloon containing an ecosystem would heat up due to the greenhouse effect. If it's sufficiently large and allowed to slightly expand it could float freely in the air. Imagine closed gardens flying freely around the world.
crazydoggers 1 day ago 0 replies      
As someone who keeps both fresh water and salt water aquariums, it makes perfect sense that this is completely plausible. I think most aquarist are well aware that bacteria are the most powerful thing in keeping our aquarium ecosystems in balance.

By mass, that vast majority of living material in that bottle is almost certainly bacteria, some nitrifying, others denitrifying. All otherwise decomposing, consuming, and recycling the various chemistry within.

Think about the earth as a sealed globe within space, and you start to understand how good a job bacteria does at balancing the chemistry of life.

I've actually seen something similar to this at a local museum called an "Ecosphere", which includes tiny shrimp living inside. They've been known to last for over ten years.


Carl Sagan's review of an Ecosphere: http://www.eco-sphere.com/sagan.html

davidw 1 day ago 0 replies      
I used to love making those things with pickle jars:


I don't suppose my parents have any of them left though... they tended to get kind of crusty with something growing on the glass and blotting out the light.

CapitalistCartr 1 day ago 6 replies      
I can't figure out what would be providing more CO2. The container is near full of greenery; where does it get air exchange? Maybe the cork leaks just enough is all I can figure.
ctdonath 1 day ago 2 replies      
Compare the EcoSphere: http://www.eco-sphere.com

I had one; amusing, though seemed finicky about lighting.

kjhughes 1 day ago 1 reply      
StackExchange Skeptics addressed this last year:

Can a plant survive bottled in its own ecosystem for 50 years?


zwieback 1 day ago 1 reply      
My coworker had a smaller version of this in his cube. His son had made it in middle school and it had been going for 10+ years. I think his was sealed with wax or something.

It's an easy experiment to reproduce and works great if you have enough time to wait around.

lovemenot 1 day ago 0 replies      
Assume the garden is somehow provably what it is claimed to be. Further assume that it is not cleaned manually because the usual culprits for blackening the inside, by pure chance, happened to be absent or long dead.

I am curious how one might go about reproducing this exact ecosystem in other bottles by cloning the original, without adding contaminants. Under these assumptions selling clones could become a commercial proposition.

omilu 8 hours ago 0 replies      
Most aquarium plants grow excellent in this way, better than when they are submerged in an aquarium. Aquarium plants have two distinct forms, submerged or emerged, and the foilage can look completely different. The emerged form does better, since it doesn't need to compete with algae and co2 is more available. To grow your own plants, fill a pickle jar with damp miracle grow organic potting soil, and plant what ever aquarium plants you can get your hand on, seal the jar, than enjoy.
tempodox 1 day ago 0 replies      
Absolutely fascinating. The greatest Bio- / Hardware hack I've seen yet. Congrats to the gardener.

(Just assuming it's true)

jchrisa 1 day ago 0 replies      
I've just been reading Verner Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky where the space-dwellers consider these the highest art form.
tonylemesmer 1 day ago 2 replies      
So it has had water and presumably some atmosphere was exchanged when it was watered in 1972, 40 years ago. The title is somewhat misleading but 40 years is still a long time.

The stopper doesn't look like its particularly well fastened and could potentially pop up and allow leaks. Impressive but without closer inspection it looks like a slightly flawed execution to me. Maybe I'm just being pedantic. A picture of the starting point would be nice.

enscr 21 hours ago 0 replies      
> The only external input needed to keep the plant going is light, since this provides it with the energy it needs to create its own food and continue to grow.

Future of clean energy ?

NAFV_P 17 hours ago 0 replies      
I was wondering how easy/difficult this phenomenon is to study in depth. If I wanted to examine any organisms in the jar, I would have trouble doing it while simultaneously maintaining the ecosystem's independence.
binarycheese 1 day ago 3 replies      
What if we build a huge sealed bottle garden and send to Mars, can humans live in it!
Houshalter 1 day ago 0 replies      
How long will it last? Will the plant eventually get a mutation and die?
fit2rule 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is motivation to try to repeat the experiment, in my opinion .. would be a great Instructable, with the last step: wait 50 years or so .. ;)
philosophus 1 day ago 1 reply      
Maybe I'm being nit-picky, but it's not "entirely self-sufficient," as it still needs light from an external source.
taigeair 1 day ago 0 replies      
doesn't the plan die? or it's producing seeds itself?
kourt 1 day ago 0 replies      
The headline should read: "53-year-old Sealed Bottle Garden..."

I see this more and more even in edited publications. It's especially irksome here since the article contains almost no actual writing.

e3pi 7 hours ago 0 replies      
"A good software project is never answered. It is not a bolt to be tightenedinto place but a tendril seed to be planted and to bear more seed toward thehope of enfoliating among the world wide landscapes."

                -- John C Hardy

hellbreakslose 1 day ago 3 replies      
Hmm can we open the bottle and test if the water is indeed from 1972?

I mean how can we actually test that this guy isn't just making things up, and wasn't opening the bottle to water the ecosystem?

chjawadm 1 day ago 0 replies      
Reminds me of the movie: "the journey to the center of the earth"
qwerta 1 day ago 0 replies      
Perhaps not as exiting, but I have aquarium which requires maintenance only 4x a year. Feeder, filters, lights, water exchange etc operate automatically.
elwell 1 day ago 0 replies      
And plant-rights activists aren't all over this? No thank you, my plants like to be cage-free.
JoeAltmaier 1 day ago 2 replies      
Easiest explanation: they're fibbing. Somebody opens the bottle regularly. There's no reason to take every extraordinary claim posted on the internet at face value. Next we'll see bigfoot photos?
Contiki: The Little-Known Open Source OS That Rules the Internet of Things wired.com
295 points by maaarghk  3 days ago   79 comments top 17
ldite 3 days ago 2 replies      
Note that it's got a pretty good emulator, with a VM image to get you up and running fast:


(ironically a 1GB download for a Micro-OS)

The emulator lets you do interesting things, like experimenting with mesh networking, that would require quite a lot of hardware to try for real. (Plus it's a lot quicker than flashing 15 nodes every time you make a bugfix!)

SwellJoe 3 days ago 2 replies      
The last time I read about Contiki, all of the screenshots were running on a C64. And it looked awesome! It made me want to play with it on my C64. The current website is all boring network simulation stuff. Looks like a corporation.

But, I'm happy to hear Open Source continues to make inroads into the embedded space. There's billions of devices out there that sometimes people's lives depend on running a terrifying array of proprietary and unmaintained software that is potentially broken in subtle (or not so subtle) ways.

Edit: Here's all the stuff about ports to a variety of awesome hardware: http://hitmen.c02.at/html/tools_contiki.html

INTPenis 3 days ago 2 replies      
I love this, I remember back when Adam Dunkels came up with this and feeling proud that he was from Sweden.

Here's a quote of his I kept with me from those days, paraphrased.

    When I program I always try to code as if I'm writing for a PDP-11. 
So no wonder he made such compact C code for the C64.

jortiz81 3 days ago 1 reply      
It's interesting to see that Contiki is taking the lead in this space, since it was once going toe-to-toe with another open source OS for wireless embedded networked devices, TinyOS. TinyOS had a large following in the research community and I believe it was used in several commercial sensor network deployments by Dust Networks and Arch Rock and at least one other Korean startup company -- that i believe is still using it in their deployments.

Adam Dunkel has done a nice job of pulling Contiki from the obscure research community and into the commercial space and is riding the "internet of things" wave right now. We'll see if it lasts. I'm not familiar with what developments have taken place on their OS since maybe 2010 or so.

maaarghk 3 days ago 0 replies      

Some example of Contiki running and browsing the internet on 20 year old hardware with 64k of ram (Apple IIe)... video is a few years old but still impressive.

I think I want to try and get this running on some atmel hardware just for fun :)

kqr2 3 days ago 0 replies      
Based on this embedded systems survey [1], FreeRTOS is actually quite popular.


[1] http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1322014&print=yes

thelucky41 3 days ago 1 reply      
I'm using this wonderful operating system for my own sideproject for LED juggling props.

Aside from the strong hardware support and large community behind it, Thingsquare has recently released it's slides from their training classes on Contiki that give an excellent overview. Porting an already existing platform to my own custom hardware has been relatively painless compared to Linux or an RTOS, though it is difficult to make Contiki's makefile based workflow work well in an IDE.

Cooperative protothreads are surprisingly easy to work with, and the IP/mesh networking stack is highly configurable at each layer. Combined with an excellent overall code quality, this is the very first open-source project I've ever really wanted to get involved in.

davidw 3 days ago 1 reply      
So what kinds of things are people actually using this for here? Anyone doing something interesting with it?
sieve1234 3 days ago 5 replies      
I am unsure about this. It's big advantage is its size and that it does not require as much HW support like Linux (like a MMU). The disadvantage is that it's not a *nix and you loose the whole ecosystem (no Posix).

In my opinion the space that it occupies (the "Internet of Things"), is not well-defined and it may be probably cheeper to use something like a full-blown small computer (like the rasperry-pi) with Linux on it.

arethuza 3 days ago 4 replies      
Can anyone recommend hardware for trying this out? I'm tempted to get a Redwire Econotag II....
stinos 3 days ago 0 replies      
Suported hardware: http://contiki-os.org/hardware.html. Lot of major players in there it seems.
dragonbonheur 2 days ago 0 replies      
The part I'm interested in for now. It will be fun to have it running inside a C64 emulator on a $50 Android tablet http://contiki.cbm8bit.com
ausjke 3 days ago 0 replies      
This is well known in IoT field I assume, I used it a few years back, after comparing with tinyos and such.Basically you have Linux, then FreeRTOS, then Contiki, from large system to the tiny devices.
Cuuugi 3 days ago 1 reply      
I wonder about name liabilities with the other famous Contiki.


joshstrange 3 days ago 5 replies      
>> Contiki will soon face competition from the likes of Microsoft, which recently announced Windows for the Internet of Things [0]. But while Microsofts new operating system will be free for devices less than 9 inches in size, it wont be open source. And Contiki has an 11-year head start.

What? Why even mention windows here, these two OS's aren't even close to being in the same category other than they share the price tag of "free". I'd like to see windows try to run in under 128mb let alone the 1mb for linux or the mere kilobytes need for Contiki. A windows mention here seems very out of place.

[0] http://www.wired.com/2014/04/free-windows/

bigbugbag 3 days ago 1 reply      
Please remove the facebook tracking snippet from the url before posting on HN.
perone 3 days ago 0 replies      
Little-known ?
U.S. Marshals Seize Cops Spying Records to Keep Them From the ACLU wired.com
295 points by pavel_lishin  3 days ago   100 comments top 17
ceejayoz 3 days ago 1 reply      
> In the Sarasota case, the U.S. Marshals Service claimed it owned the records Sarasota police offered to the ACLU because it had deputized the detective in the case, making all documentation in the case federal property.

This is pretty outrageous.

fiatmoney 3 days ago 3 replies      
The notion of "ownership" of public records is a bit tenuous to begin with. You can own the paper (except they obviously don't, and you can make a copy on your own paper), or you can own a copyright on particular documents (except that US government documents, including municipalities, are public domain).

Really they're asserting some quasi-classification right to prevent a record's release because they "deputized" the author, but it's pretty unclear under what actual statutory authority they're operating.

opendais 3 days ago 1 reply      
Yep, not an abuse of power at all. Seizing all the evidence to interfere with a legal proceeding. This seems perfectly legit to me!/s

I'd hope that the U.S. Marshals [as a service] would have people fired for this and a Judge would find whoever ordered this to be in contempt. However, I really expect this just to be ignored beyond the ACLU/News reporting on it. :/

nilsimsa 3 days ago 5 replies      
"Recently, the Tallahassee police department revealed it had used stingrays at least 200 times since 2010 without telling any judge because the devices manufacturer made the police department sign a non-disclosure agreement that police claim prevented them from disclosing use of the device to the courts."

So just by signing an NDA, I'm not obligated to disclose information to the court?

Jaecen 3 days ago 0 replies      
> the devices manufacturer made the police department sign a non-disclosure agreement that police claim prevented them from disclosing use of the device to the courts.

I don't know where to begin with this, other than to say it's quite clear that this police department is not interested in participating in the justice system.

logn 3 days ago 1 reply      
Defending against this would be a perfect use of Florida State Guard, as such groups aren't controlled by the federal government. Unfortunately as of 1947, Florida now only has the Florida National Guard which is under federal control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_State_Guard

For all the talk of 2nd Amendment (guns rights) advocates, I think they miss the obvious use cases: well organized (and locally controlled) militias, such as the Florida State Guard.

winslow 3 days ago 2 replies      
Serious question. At what point do you think the public truly hits a tipping point and lashes back at the government? Or are we just going to sit unorganized and go back to our facebook and nightly entertainment. Personally I think it will have to be an economy downturn worse than the housing bubble to get the public to organize.
aagha 2 days ago 0 replies      
"Recently, the Tallahassee police department revealed it had used stingrays at least 200 times since 2010 without telling any judge because the devices manufacturer made the police department sign a non-disclosure agreement that police claim prevented them from disclosing use of the device to the courts"

What complete and utter BS. Does that mean that the DA too had no idea about the use of stingray because the police couldn't tell them either. I think figuring out who should know (and who shouldn't) is probably very very selective!

anonbanker 2 days ago 0 replies      
So, accept upon proof of claim that this wouldn't prejudice the rights of the people of the state if the court gives full formal equity to the federal marshalls, and that this wouldn't be a classic case of Champerty and Maintenance[1].

Personally, I'm viewing this as another "pretend to fail" moment where they claim something is an insurmountable roadblock, when it's easily solvable.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champerty_and_maintenance

nitrogen 3 days ago 0 replies      
Was this before or after https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7843618, or was this a separate case entirely?
rhizome 3 days ago 2 replies      
Who is going to be the first device manufacturer to provide Stingray protection for their phones? Apple? Google?
javert 3 days ago 1 reply      
People in the future are going to be so confused. "If the Americans were the first to systematically limit government power in a written constitution, why did they just start ignoring it all of a sudden?"
ianstallings 3 days ago 1 reply      
It just makes you wonder what they are hiding? Is it the capabilities of the device or something else? I don't understand why the feds would get involved. I hope they keep fighting to find out.
contingencies 2 days ago 0 replies      
Added to Wikipedia over here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker

If anyone wants to add more info, it's a worthy cause.

wmeredith 3 days ago 2 replies      
Vote with your dollars, it's likely the most important vote you've got.

The ACLU single donation page is here: https://www.aclu.org/secure/make-gift-aclu-3?s_src=UNS140001...

The ACLU membership page is here: https://www.aclu.org/secure/our-civil-liberties-are-under-at...

I have been an ACLU member for years, but am otherwise unaffiliated. Crap like this is why I'm a member. They are on the front lines.

eyeareque 3 days ago 0 replies      
I knew the news yesterday was to good to be true.
MrBlue 3 days ago 0 replies      
Welcome to the USSA.
Flappy Bird in Swift github.com
280 points by pjvds  4 days ago   124 comments top 26
jashmenn 4 days ago 4 replies      
Author here - I didn't expect to see this here this morning. I'd intended to write a longer post :)

In any case, here's a few things I learned about swift yesterday building this. Please note that I have about 4 hours swift experience, so feel free to correct anything I say that's wrong.

1. To make properties on a class you simply declare the variable on the class e.g.:

    class GameScene: SKScene {       var bird = SKSpriteNode()      // ...    }
2. The APIs generally have shorter names and it's really nice. E.g.

    SKTexture* birdTexture1 = [SKTexture textureWithImageNamed:@"Bird1"];

    var birdTexture1 = SKTexture(imageNamed: "Bird1")
If I understand it correctly, any overloading `inits` basically look like calling the constructor on the class, whereas any class functions will be called like this:

    var flap = SKAction.repeatActionForever(animation)
3. You can put inline blocks and it's great

    var spawn = SKAction.runBlock({() in self.spawnPipes()})
4. The typing is really strong - this takes some getting used to. For instance, `arc4random()` returns a 32 bit unsigned integer. This means before you can use any operators on it you have to make sure you're using compatible types. e.g.

    var quarter = UInt32( self.frame.size.height / 4 )    var y = arc4random() % quarter + quarter;
If we didn't use `UInt32` to convert `quarter` we'd get an error. After you get the hang of this, it's actually really nice.

5. I use `var` everywhere and I'm pretty sure I should be using `let` a lot more. I haven't worked with Swift enough to have a strong intuition about when to use either.

I should also mention that my code is just converted from Matthias Gall's code [1].

I also want to put in a shameless plug that the point of making this was to advertise the "Making Games with Swift" class that auser and I are building. If you're interested, put in your email here: https://fullstackedu.com

I intend to redo this more fully with Playgrounds. I've been looking for a way to teach kids programming for a while now (if you recall, auser and I built Choc [2] a few months back). I think Playgrounds in Swift are finally the tool we've been waiting for.

[1] http://digitalbreed.com/2014/how-to-build-a-game-like-flappy...

[2] http://www.fullstack.io/choc/

EDIT: added choc

gokhan 4 days ago 1 reply      
As a C# developer, I can read and understand the code without any issues. That's a good thing for Apple. I'm sure Objective-C is great but it's too foreign for me and didn't want to toy with it for fun, not worth the effort. But I can write an app or two with this one.
pajju 4 days ago 2 replies      
I just started exploring the Book: The Swift Programming Language by Apple Inc.

Link: https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-swift-programming-langu...

Hope it helps.

matthewmacleod 4 days ago 0 replies      
Good work. I'll have to do 2048 instead, I guess :)

I'm quite impressed so far. Having been an Objective C and Ruby engineer, so far Swift seems to offer the best of both.

That said, OpenGL support doesn't appear to be finished yet.

kevinwang 4 days ago 3 replies      
I guess Flappy Bird is now a tier 2 "hello world" :)
diminish 4 days ago 2 replies      
I got mixed feelings about the language at first sight. I guess my mammalian brain recognizes languages based on the particular combination of the following naming decisions.

* func, function, fun, defun fu, funct

* CamelCase vs snake_case

* whitespace, semicolon or comma usage

* var, int/integer/uint64/Integer/

* choice of (), {}, [] or better (){a[]}

* import/include/require, class/class, override, self vs this, new vs Class()

PS: next time you design a new language just make a random unique combination of the above.

stigi 4 days ago 0 replies      
If you're new to functional programming styles this swift project might be more relevant: https://github.com/maxpow4h/swiftz
LukeB_UK 4 days ago 1 reply      
From the GIF in the readme, it looks like collision detection is broken.
kclay 4 days ago 2 replies      
Always had a problem with Objective C, could never read it (Android Dev) but this right here is pretty impressive. I like the mixture of language features. But my only question, are you still locked to using an mac to develop for iOS. I guess since the language is closed source it depends on some osx libs at compile time.
ajanuary 4 days ago 4 replies      
This being the only code sample of swift I've seen, my overriding takeaway is that for the basic stuff it's remarkably similar to Objective-C with a lick of paint.

If people really take to swift, it'll be interesting to see if that's because it creates a shift in programming style, or because people really are just afraid of small syntactical differences.

k-mcgrady 4 days ago 3 replies      
This may be a stupid question but is the language in some way tailored to game programming? Apple's examples at WWDC were game companies, their coding demo was a game, and this is the first project I've seen written in it - and it's a game.
Zelphyr 4 days ago 1 reply      
If Swift has namespaces why are classes still prefixed? "SKScene" for example.
QuadDamaged 4 days ago 0 replies      
I am really intrigued by the obj-c interop capability of swift, namely interactions between blocks and closures / anonymous functions.

I can see my AFNetworking code becoming much, much more readable now, without the need to @weakify/@strongify self on both sides of the block, but just add a blanket'[unowned self] in' inside the closure.

alexcroox 4 days ago 0 replies      
Well that didn't take long...
kayoone 4 days ago 2 replies      
pretty neat! I am not an iOS developer but if i understand correctly this uses the new Sprite Kit stuff included in iOS8 for 2d rendering right ? Is this a threat to existing 2d/game engines ? Not sure where SpriteKit integrates into the existing stack for making a game.
brador 4 days ago 3 replies      
Does this need IOS8 to run?

Is there a way to get that without being a signed up dev with Apple?

ktg 4 days ago 1 reply      
barrystaes 4 days ago 2 replies      
Swift is a new programming language. Does this implementation also use Metal? What is the Scene Kit relation to Metal?
seanhandley 4 days ago 0 replies      
Someone needs to add Swift to the linguist gem
martinvol 4 days ago 0 replies      
OK, that was fast!
joeyspn 4 days ago 0 replies      
2k+ Github stars in less than 24h? OMG
hellbreakslose 4 days ago 5 replies      
Swift looks fine, the only thing I don't like its that is for Apple only products... that kinda defeats the purpose of having a programming language.
supergeek133 4 days ago 0 replies      
napolux 4 days ago 0 replies      
FAST AS HELL! :P Thanks a lot!
nakovet 4 days ago 1 reply      
I was curious when I saw a tests folders, but it was just auto-generated files with no actual tests. =(
nicolime 4 days ago 0 replies      
Share the latest about Swift here! Be part of the biggest page for the language. Looking for admins. https://www.facebook.com/swiftofficial
Runnable jsfiddle for everything runnable.com
275 points by jbverschoor  5 days ago   100 comments top 40
emilv 5 days ago 2 replies      
It's pretty strange to get root access to a server, even though it's just a Docker VM. We can install anything we want, compile any C code we want, DDoS and spam anyone we want... The machine is also crazy loaded right now, with 100% load on all cores (according to htop that I installed from the package repo), almost run out of RAM and disk space decreasing fast.
joshvm 5 days ago 2 replies      
I've always liked http://ideone.com/ for testing snippets. Bewildering array of supported languages including esoterics.
singingwolfboy 5 days ago 2 replies      
What's the monetization model? This looks awesome, but it needs a way to pay the bills if its going to survive.
adamc 5 days ago 1 reply      
I noticed that the terminal supports vim and nano. Wish it supported emacs, but I'm still impressed.
TeeWEE 5 days ago 5 replies      
Where are they running the code? I could easily write malicious code that would crash the machine on which the code would be running on.
mcv 5 days ago 2 replies      
It seems to be a mix of languages and frameworks. For example, it doesn't list Python, but it does list Django. No Javascript, but jQuery and Node.js (Angular programmers are out of luck).
recentdarkness 4 days ago 0 replies      
As cool as this is, I am honestly curious how you could monetize such a service?When I have some ideas I am trying to implement, I always try to see how you can get at least the cost of running a service back in. I don't like the thought of taking seed money from some investors without having a plan for making money. So how would you monetize this?

Edit: Please don't say advertising, that would be probably the most obvious choice, however still... Are there other ways?

yaakov 5 days ago 1 reply      
Best not to advertise compatibility with everything unless you are sure that it really is compatible with everything. Otherwise it is too easy to mislead people (who will load the site, check for their favorite language, not see it and never come back)
Alupis 5 days ago 1 reply      
Here's some system specs they are running your code in:


Executing Build Command: javac /root/HelloWorld.java

Executing Run Command: java -classpath /root HelloWorld

Cores: 4

CPU Arch: amd64

Total Mem (Bytes JVM sees): 236257280

Max Mem (Bytes JVM sees): 3506438144

Free Mem (Bytes JVM sees): 235023784

Root Dirs: /

Get OS (direct output): Linux

Get OS (sanitized output): Unix/Linux

OS Arch: 64

Process exited successfully



akanet 5 days ago 2 replies      
If anyone is looking for a similar system but more focused on collaboration and working on code in real-time, check out: https://coderpad.io

The target use case is interviews, but it works well for a wide variety of use cases as well.

taternuts 5 days ago 0 replies      
This really is an awesome site, and I was really impressed when I first discovered it. It's like having a nitrous.io box provisioned on the spot in whatever stack you want, for something as simple as a 3 line snippet of code to a full on project (although probably not the best place for that). I hope more people start using it and contributing to the examples, it's really nice to be able to walk through full-stack snippets
duiker101 5 days ago 1 reply      
It looks very nice indeed but I wonder why there is .net and not just c#. It might actually be better because this way you can have all the web functions too but might take a bit more for simple things.
drewcrawford 5 days ago 1 reply      
Python 3 please...
TimFogarty 5 days ago 1 reply      
This is cool. I'd love to have some sort of GitHub (or just Git) integration. That would be powerful.
path411 5 days ago 0 replies      
Awesome, I love the multiple file approach. This is what I've started to realize holds backs a lot of similar services. (Especially jsfiddle). I'm glad someone was able to capture something I've been looking for.

And of course I'm going to have to bug you for TypeScript support!

thearn4 5 days ago 1 reply      
I like it. Any way to get third-party python libraries (e.g. numpy, scipy) to work with it too, in a python project?
stuaxo 5 days ago 0 replies      
Cool! If this had python 2 + pygtk .. python 3, gobject introspection + gtk3 it would be awesome, since it's a pain to set people up with these.
sootn 4 days ago 0 replies      
You should hack in Swift. Would bring extreme amounts of traffic as Swift only runs on OSX and behind paywall.
ozh 5 days ago 0 replies      
Quite choppy at the moment so it's hard to play with, but how does this differ with ideone.com ?
vincentkriek 5 days ago 0 replies      
I'm missing plain old C? You could use the C++ one but an extra one for C would be nice.
truncate 5 days ago 0 replies      
Would be nice if UI takes complete screen, particularly the code editor.
jackmaney 5 days ago 0 replies      
Very nice! This is actually better than a "jsfiddle for everything", as it has tagged and searchable snippets.
joshdance 5 days ago 0 replies      
For some crazy reason I thought Objective C would be included. Still awesome though.
NicoJuicy 5 days ago 0 replies      
Does anyone know which tools this would use? Eg. Apache Thrift can compile definition files to different languages. But i don't think that is used.
owenversteeg 4 days ago 0 replies      
I'd really like CLisp or Scheme. Other than that, it looks good.
hcm 5 days ago 0 replies      
matdes 5 days ago 0 replies      
The service looks great, I just wanted to comment: when I opened the page, my immediate thought was "is this done by Heroku? This page looks a lot like heroku"
zupa-hu 5 days ago 0 replies      
I must say I'm impressed. And its response time is not bad either. But.. how will it scale?!
ErikRogneby 5 days ago 0 replies      
This is going to be great for stackoverflow answers!
jbverschoor 5 days ago 0 replies      
I found a full working rails app, which does everything from creating the database to running the webserver.

What I'm actually interested in is how they suddenly got on nr 2 in google :-)

jbverschoor 5 days ago 0 replies      
I suddenly came across this on google (pos 2) when searching for a simple cropping example with jquery + carrierwave.

Looks pretty cool!

dougzor 5 days ago 0 replies      
Congrats to Yash and the gang, great to see some GT grads doing exciting things!
ballpoint 5 days ago 0 replies      
This might just be the Hacker News effect, but it currently seems unacceptably slow.
joeyspn 5 days ago 0 replies      
Didn't know about this one... Looks cool for sharing snippets at StackOverflow
thrillscience 5 days ago 3 replies      
"Everything"? Where's Erlang? Where's Lua?
yoanizer 5 days ago 1 reply      
What's added value compared to ideone.com?
rmah 5 days ago 0 replies      
No perl? Really? Sheesh.
hellbreakslose 5 days ago 1 reply      
Hmm am guessing this site is getting a lot of traffic at the moment.
mhax 5 days ago 2 replies      
I'm sad theres no scala support
pascalo 5 days ago 1 reply      
no go?
Why Startups Need to Focus on Sales, Not Marketing wsj.com
274 points by sama  4 days ago   154 comments top 33
paul 4 days ago 11 replies      
Exposing yourself to the direct, harsh feedback of the market is key. I've noticed that bad founders will do just about anything to avoid this. Instead of selling, which is hard, they spend their time going to conferences and meetups, trying to do PR, talking to biz dev people about partnerships, etc. It all sounds like work, but mainly serves to insulate them from the harsh reality that nobody wants their product.
hkmurakami 4 days ago 2 replies      
"All too often, Ive seen founders build some initially mediocre product, announce it to the world, find that users never show up, and not know what to do next. As well as not getting any users, the startup never gets the feedback it needs to improve the product."

Ah, the Hollywood launch... (http://gettingreal.37signals.com/ch13_Hollywood_Launch.php)

quaffapint 3 days ago 1 reply      
I made a huge mistake with the saas listed in my profile.

I threw up a poll on my existing site, some people said, yes, they would like a hosted saas version. I then spent 6 months making it - without speaking to anyone further. It's now been 6 months since launch and its just cobwebs.

Speak to people first! Don't waste 6 months or more just doing the 'easy' tech stuff. Found out now that no one actually would be willing to pay for it.

KeenanSteel 4 days ago 2 replies      
Maybe the HN crowd has a different view of marketing than I do. Our marketing team relies pretty heavily on getting user feedback. We'll listen to individual calls to make sure the site answers questions potential customers have. We'll run surveys and over the shoulder tests to understand intent, concerns, and confusion.

My background is in marketing, and I'm confused by this parody of a marketer who doesn't know how to gather and apply user feedback to the product and site.

Macsenour 4 days ago 1 reply      
I was at a board game convention, as a venue to launch my site gamerustlers.com, and although we got great reactions, what I really cared about was how many people walked up to the kiosk and actually signed up. The second metric was how many signed up on their phones. While in Beta the site is free so I can't call them "sales", but there is a HUGE difference between someone saying "Hey, great idea" and that person actually signing up, even when it's free to do so.
Noxchi 4 days ago 0 replies      
Marketing is salesmanship in media.

If you do marketing first, you're putting the cart before the horse.

You should do sales manually first before you try to automate it away with marketing, because the feedback you get will give you extreme leverage in your marketing later.

ironchef 4 days ago 1 reply      
I disagree; however, I think it may be because of her definition of marketing. She states "Sales and marketing are two ends of a continuum." Marketing is creating, delivering, and communicating value to your users / customers. Startups need to do both. Well. You need to create a product that gives value to customers (whether that be through elimination of pain or creation of new value) and get it into their hands. That involves both sales and marketing.
pushkargaikwad 3 days ago 0 replies      
I am running a one man bootstrapped startup (I prefer to call it a business then a startup) inBoundio, which is a marketing software and for me, having 1 paying customer is more important than 100 users. I get paying customers through sales, users through marketing.

For Startups, Effective sales will make your marketing better.

mikeknoop 4 days ago 1 reply      
The interesting thing to me is how quickly you transition from Sales oriented -> Marketing oriented if things are going well. Early product/market fit can act as a bit of a guide for when to do the transition.
mandeepj 4 days ago 12 replies      
http://www.janjuaclothing.com/ - This is my start up for selling women's designer clothing.

I tried lot of things to get the word out like facebook marketing, adwords, email marketing, exhibition, brochure distribution, regular updates on facebook page, deals having upto 30% discounts, spying on twitter for competitors and their customers to see what kind of conversations they are having and what they are doing, regular updates to website for look and feel as well as making it faster and faster.

I reached few affiliates but they were asking for upfront money so I stayed away.

The site was launched about 9 months ago and I have zero sales so far, that is making me sad and sometimes I lose my moral as you can see I have done lot of work. Spent countless hours during day and night. I am not sure what I am missing.

Next things I have planned to do are - SEO, print advertising.

Any help that would result in sales would be greatly appreciated.

mathattack 3 days ago 0 replies      
This is so unbelievably true. I worked at a firm where the opposite was true. The VP of Marketing spent a lot of time inviting himself to existing customer meetings, wasting exec time on magic quadrants, and hiring his buddies to do marketing collateral. Inevitably every hour of their time took up four of executive, sales and developer time. It was impossible to point to even one sale that they influence. This could also be due to their incompetence, rather than a general condemnation of the topic.
cjf4 4 days ago 0 replies      
All small businesses need to focus on sales. Sales gets you cash, sales lets you talk to your customer, sales is king.
aashaykumar92 4 days ago 4 replies      
Great article, but I have a situational question: Let's say a company has grown at a 10% weekly growth rate and is now at 500 users. But as they try to sell to more people, they realize they are no longer growing at 10% and their growth rate is stagnant or decreasing WOW. Does it make sense to continue trying to sell OR focusing on user feedback and improving the product? I assume 'both' will be a popular answer but why? If you know your product is currently subpar, why not just build until the next iteration is ready and then start selling again?
kelvin0 3 days ago 0 replies      
Being able to cope with 'rejection' on an ongoing basis makes you much stronger in many areas of life. From finding a mate all the way to gathering sales for your product.

Rejection should not be taken personally most of the time, it is just a signal that you should interpret as your 'hustle' needs refining...

rtx 4 days ago 0 replies      
I am shocked at how many people have proclaimed that using the telephone to source opportunities is dead. We have proven this model to be extremely successful, and have tied incentives to ensure that we are promoting the right behavior. For instance, we reward our inside sales team for setting up qualified appointments and provide an additional bonus if their appointments turn into closed deals. Lists on the internet are in abundance, and should be leveraged to their fullest capacity. In my experience, if you are calling a prospect with genuine intent to uncover whether a problem or pain exists, and are respectful and intelligent in your dialog, you will uncover great opportunities at every turn. We try to help start-ups by providing the initial lead at SalesZip.com
fivedogit 3 days ago 0 replies      
In my three previous businesses, I hustled and cold-called my way to paying customers (or at least valuable pilot programs) each time. But these were enterprise (B2B) businesses that could cut relatively large monthly checks. The reward was absolutely worth the lift.

That said, I'm having a hard time making the leap that for some consumer internet products with hefty cold-start issues cold calling is still a viable strategy.

For a product that has no network effect and is useful for the first user (e.g. Google search), sure, I'll buy it. For a product that needs 10+ people to start getting useful (e.g. Facebook), sure.

But for a product that needs multiple thousands of users to start getting useful, how does cold calling still make sense? These 1x1 users would come to your product, say "Um, it's a ghost town.", and then leave, never to return. Wouldn't the founders be better off putting effort into PR (TC, Pando, etc)?

TLDR. I'm not arguing that non-scaling hustle is not important -- I've seen the results myself, first hand. But doesn't the type of product really dictate how effective it will be, and therefore, how strongly should be prioritized over other avenues?

cmapes 4 days ago 0 replies      
Startups selling a business product need to focus on a salesforce, direct marketing methods that are profitable, and getting in front of real paying customers.

But startups producing social media products, or consumer applications that are freemium or passively monetized will not benefit with sales. They need marketing via PR, social media, or viral mechanisms baked in early on into the app.

Let's not overgeneralize.

thinkerer 3 days ago 0 replies      
Im currently working on a start-up and can relate to this. The truth always hurts and people worry that their dreams will be dashed or the need to correct things early on which is most times, tremendous hard work (But it becomes crazy amount of effort if the change is much later on).

I targeted a low price, sales-free model, until i realized cost is not the key issue, getting feedback is! Hearing what people want and need is crucial! Its the reason why small firms are more nimble, simply because they move fast and are able to change rapidly from the feedbacks they received. Also important is that through talking, I noticed many times, people not only like to share painful experiences, they kind of impart their "ideal state" solution to you which can be incredibly helpful from a different perspective standpoint as well as a imaginative point.

In fact, I would rather spend more time talking to people in person (which I am doing now) than to rub shoulders and network. Its like delayed gratification. Have incredible amount of pain upfront so there will be less (much less) hiccups later on in development.

csdreamer7 4 days ago 0 replies      
Would anyone be interested in purchasing software that allows you to secure wipe your phone or Linux laptop remotely?

Yes you can secure wipe your phone, but that's tied to the user account. What if you wanted to secure wipe data on the phones or laptops you give you to employees (esp. less technical capable people that lose their phones)?

I noticed that most options only allow encryption and are Windows only. However since most developers us private source control (and BT Sync), your likely not going to lose much work. I know I would feel better if my data was deleted.

What do you think? Give me some of that direct, harsh feedback?

angrymouse 4 days ago 1 reply      
"How should you measure if your manual efforts are effective? Focus on growth rate rather than absolute numbers. Then you wont be dismayed if the absolute numbers are small at first. If you have 20 users, you only need two more this week to grow 10%. And while two users is a small number for most products, 10% a week is a great growth rate. If you keep growing at 10% a week, the absolute numbers will eventually become impressive."

Doesn't the 10% growth (but actually just 2 more users) thing sound like vanity metrics? I don't see how 2 more users is that great by making it seem bigger?

Better than nothing, better than non-paying users maybe but it reminds me of a Publishing company i used to work for who once internally touted their 100% rise in video revenue (ignoring the fact they had 5 or 6 times the amount of products released at the beginning of that month and had no video product with a projected profitable lifecycle).

Covering user acquisition in unneeded and transparent vanity metrics seems to me to be unnecessary, especially when you are asking customers for brutal reality.

klunger 4 days ago 0 replies      
This was a great article. I just wanted to add the logical extension: the need to be flexible and a willingness to "pivot." The process of getting your product out there manually can give really focused user feedback that will help to refine the product in a smart way. Painful at first, yes, but ultimately very valuable.
jeremypotvin 3 days ago 0 replies      
Great article and great advice. I do this every single day. Acquire one customer at a time, work with them patiently, learn from our interactions, and continue to build a better product. We acquire new customers through referrals, Google, and traditional sales. A very important part of the sales process is nurturing them through the trial period - get them to paid no matter what. If you aren't doing one on one sales and working with your customers you will never figure out what the "what" is and you will never be able to replicate it with technology.

I know I have 30 days to impress and win a new customer and convert them. The most useful tool that I have to help me with this is intercom.io. Their automated time and event based messaging can interact at key moments when I can't always be there. Any time they need me, I am one click away. It is a fantastic platform.

esamek 3 days ago 0 replies      
But you also don't want to focus just on sales.

In the end, every business model will have a more optimal and less optimal emphasis on sales, marketing, user feedback, etc...

Most B2B and B2C startups may in fact need more focus on sales...but a B2B2C company may find it misleading. If your customer is not your end user, focusing on sales and not marketing can actually be quite dangerous.

libertine 4 days ago 1 reply      
Something doesn't add up to me: either we lost de definition of Marketing, or Markteers that start-ups get are not doing their job.

Marketing is the way to get sales. We measure the success of Markteting by sales. It's the whole purpous of it. If the focus on Marketing is not being reflected on sales, then their Marketing Plan is not working. I think it's as simple as that.

The broadness of the audience is irrelevant when it's clear what is the target for your product - everything outside the target shouldn't count.

It all comes to the hold saying: if you want to please all, you end up not pleasing anyone.

safun 4 days ago 0 replies      
If you study your target audience properly and with the right tools to analyze data, you can market narrow and deep. Sales should be #1 priority, I agree, so you can continue to collect feedback and make product iterations but saying marketing is broad and shallow is an incorrect statement. Digital marketing tools have evolved in the past few years and it's a lot easier to measure success on specific tactics. I think the old school mentality of marketing is "spray and prey" and if that is what one's thinking of marketing is, then they are not doing marketing correctly. The job of the marketer is to make the life of the sales person much easier so that the conversations they are having are meaningful and have greater chance for conversion.
Georgess 3 days ago 0 replies      
I guess it depends on a startup. You can't just go to the street and try selling your product(well you can) but you need to identify potential customers which is marketing..
kirkus 3 days ago 0 replies      
It's all about hustle and how startups are different to big companies. Every startup CEO should be talking to customers every single day.
dschiptsov 3 days ago 1 reply      
Focus on sales? Does it mean "selling crap to crappy people" and other "sales techniques" as seen on The Wolf of Wall Street?)
kamilszybalski 4 days ago 1 reply      
"At Y Combinator, we advise most startups to begin by seeking out some core group of early adopters and then engaging with individual users to convince them to sign up." Sounds like marketing and user acquisition to me...
polymath88 4 days ago 0 replies      
I thought they went hand & hand, no?
logicallee 4 days ago 1 reply      
"why startups need to focus on cash collection (accounts receivable), not sales."
spiritplumber 4 days ago 0 replies      
I'd rather startups focus on delvering what they promise.
corwinstephen 4 days ago 0 replies      
Even though I agree, this is a combination of baseless speculation and pontification which I find to be obnoxious.
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