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2048 gabrielecirulli.github.io
2732 points by frederfred  7 days ago   394 comments top 160
terabytest 7 days ago 37 replies      
Hey, author here! I'm pretty overwhelmed that this made it to the top of HN without me even thinking of posting it here :)

I made this game as a fun weekend project, inspired by another game called 1024 (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/1024!/id823499224) and a spinoff called 2048 (http://saming.fr/p/2048/). I did mine to add animations to the latter, which was a bit hard to play without them.

I discovered Threes only today, and I had no idea it looked so similar. I searched a bit and it appears as if 1024 is also inspired by Threes, so my game is probably the last of a long chain of clones :P

The code is also open-source. You can find it here: https://github.com/gabrielecirulli/2048

Feel free to ask me anything, and thanks to everyone for the attention! :)

By the way, my highscore is somewhere around 6000. Admittedly, I'm quite bad at playing my own game :P

EDIT: Make sure not to get addicted!

EDIT 2: The game now has swipe gestures and vim keys support (added by @rayhaanj)!

chavesn 7 days ago 7 replies      
Not many posting winning scores, so here's mine: 2048 and 20368 points


I'm not going to claim it was first try. Probably my tenth. However, I got much better at avoiding the key mistakes:

- Always keep your highest number in a corner

- Use the rest of that edge as a "staging area" for the components that can next double the highest tile. Work the other tiles toward the opposite corner on that side and then double them upward into the highest corner.

- When you double the highest corner, you'll expose the "staging area" side. During this time, quickly work number back to fill that side so you avoid being forced to move the highest number out.

- NEVER let yourself fill a 3x4 grid. This will force you to move the highest column away from the edge and will probably end the game in a handful of turns.

wmeredith 7 days ago 4 replies      
No one has mentioned it yet, but this is an in browser version of the excellent iOS app Threes: http://www.joystiq.com/2014/01/30/addictive-ios-puzzling-com... no affiliation, just a fan
jader201 7 days ago 3 replies      
First of all, kudos on a well designed game. It's obvious you've made something pretty addictive, as evident by the place on HN and the responses you're getting here.

One thing I've found out is that you can pretty easily get to at least 512 or higher just by repeating the following pattern:

  right + down + left + down
Try it out and you'll quickly see how it works. Any other similar pattern would also work:

  right + down + right + up  up + right + up + left  left + down + left + up
I will also sometimes break the pattern to consolidate some of the larger numbers when opportunities present themselves. But other than that, I usually stick to the pattern.

Of course, it will only get you so far, because you will eventually run out of space to keep the pattern working. But it will get you past the first few thousand points (512 or higher).

throwaway_yy2Di 7 days ago 1 reply      
For those "playing" in the javascript console, here's one way to get a handle on the (inaccessibly scoped) game objects:

    GameManager.prototype.__actuate =         GameManager.prototype.actuate;        GameManager.prototype.actuate = function() {         window.gm = this;         this.__actuate();    }
On the next move, the game object will exfiltrate itself into the global window namespace.

    gm.grid.eachCell(function(x,y,_) {         gm.grid.cells[x][y] = new Tile({x:x, y:y}, 1024);     });        gm.actuate();

benesch 7 days ago 1 reply      
See also the original iPhone game: http://threesgame.com (Support the developers! It's a great game.)

Or a truer JS clone: http://threesjs.com

tbenst 7 days ago 5 replies      
Made it to 1024: http://imgur.com/QQUXzCN. Here's my routine:

1. "tumbler" until 128: up right down left, repeat

2. Get 128 on the top in the middle two slots. Really any edge works, but I'll say top for simplicity. Keep a semi-large value on the side with one open slot in top row to prevent sliding. The other side on top is used for staging

3. Only use left, right and up. Never let a smaller value get trapped. This rule can only be violated to avoid filling the top three rows with the fourth empty.

I lost this game because I mistakenly filled the top three rows, forcing me to use a down. I think this strategy is viable to win however

Dave_Rosenthal 7 days ago 0 replies      
I wrote a version myself in python and have been playing with strategies. It seems fairly resistant to simple greedy strategies (maximize highest score/maximize empty squares/etc).

In terms of "blind" strategies [up, right, down, left]* works pretty well, but [up, right, up, left]* is by far the best I've found. It gets to 512 about 30% of the time (!), with about 0.2% hitting 1024. Still haven't seen a "win" using the blind strategy in several 10,000s of runs.

acjohnson55 1 day ago 2 replies      
I eventually won and went on to score 32420, eventually losing after getting a second 1024 on the board. I'm fairly certain a 4096 is achievable.

The cardinal rule, as many have said, is to keep one side filled, in descending order, with your largest piece in one corner. Once you have that side filled, you have to make sure that any time you have a duplicate on that row that you:

(1) only ever shift toward your largest number

(2) ideally have a parallel row that will not shift before you do (1)

Until you can refill your last row, circumstances may lead you to have to move in the forbidden direction, which could wreck the whole game. Point (2) ensures that you can fill your back row with another piece immediately, restoring 3 directions of moves as quickly as possible.

If you end up with any 2's on your back row, you must build them up to higher numbers ASAP. Last thing you want is buried 2's.

Once your numbers start getting high, I think it makes sense to use the front two rows exclusively for 2's, 4's, and the occasional 8, but to shift 8's to the third row as soon as possible.

I've found that to actually finish once you have all the pieces you need, it may make sense to break script, but if you want to go on to try to make 4096, you may want to carefully stay on script.

I've found that in tricky situations when I want to combine large value pieces that are just not in alignment, it makes sense to try to slide lower value pieces under one to "boost" one of the others into alignment. The ability to do this makes it valuable to keep your combining pieces in the middle of the board.

Lastly, when you have multiple possible moves, make the move that takes most advantage of the piece that's about to appear, either because you can quickly combine the new piece or because it can "boost" another piece into alignment.

Follow this advice, and you will be a star!

dzink 7 days ago 0 replies      
The game is super addictive and I figured out a way to get to 11000 in the first hour. It's actually an excellent analogy for social network-type products and any business really. If your users belong to different clusters and similar clusters don't meet, there is little value and the network doesn't become more valuable for anyone. By focusing on the same corner scenario you help similar clusters find each-other consistently and thus amplify value to each-other. I took over one corner and keep stacking on to it with blocks of increasing value, essentially never moving out of it. If you move out of your corder, a different cluster takes hold in it and then everyone in that corner will hesitate to buy into you, even if the other cluster is small - it becomes a thorn in your butt. Great job! I learned something new today (Plague has also been very educational for me so far, but for viral dynamics.)
xsace 7 days ago 1 reply      
So I'm playing this since 10 minutes now and I have no idea what so ever I'm doing but it makes me feel like I'm performing well.
JoshTriplett 7 days ago 1 reply      
Quite a lot of fun.

One minor nit: if the board is full, but you can make a move that will free up a space, you can make that move and the new tile will appear in the newly opened space, but then the game immediately ends afterward. EDIT: OK, apparently this only happens if there are actually no more moves; as long as moves remain the game continues.

Also, hitting "space" reset the entire game; I'd expected it to either do nothing or add a tile without moving.

instakill 7 days ago 1 reply      
This simple game really shows how amazing the human mind is. I've never played any variant of this game before and when I first started I was blind to the mechanics of how this worked. I was moving so slowly and would fill up the board quite quickly.

After playing this game for 2 hours now my fingers are moving faster than my conscious mind can really follow. In my last game I was doing combo moves taking "2" blocks to "64" blocks in mere keystrokes. I've been surprised several times when things work out.

JacksonGariety 7 days ago 2 replies      
I have some interesting results.

The first time I played the game I scored around 3000 points. After that, I tried to slow down and focus on keep the same kinds of numbers together, but after that, I couldn't get past 2250.

So I wrote a script that used Math.random() to hit the array keys continually, and the score was much lower: 1000.

Then I tried the sequence RIGHT UP LEFT DOWN over and over instead of Math.random() I scored significantly higher than all of them, in the 4000s.

Does anyone know why this might be?

tptacek 7 days ago 0 replies      
Why do I feel like another good name for this game would be "8 years of running a startup"?
mightybyte 6 days ago 0 replies      
Finally won with a score of 20548. At first I was using a strategy of getting the biggest number into a corner. This follows a pattern of mostly up-right-up-right-... with an occasional left or down thrown in to get unstuck. This approach can pretty reliably get you to 512 in the corner without much trouble. But eventually this method saturates the available "storage" space with an inefficient pattern of tiles up to the diagonal. Then you have to start changing things up and continuing becomes tricky.

Then I tried the approach mentioned here of left-down-right-down-left... in a very mechanical fashion. I believe that this is very likely the optimal mindless strategy. It works amazingly well. As long as you never hit up, it fills things very efficiently and the biggest numbers percolate down towards the middle of the bottom row.

The way I finally won was to take this second approach and augment it with some periods of trying to get the biggest number in the corner. Start with ldrd until you get some 64s or 128s, then slow down and play catch-up with a corner. Then go back to ldrd. Occasionally stopping at strategic places to consolidate things also seems to help quite a bit.

All in all, a very fun game with some interesting properties.

Ethan_Mick 7 days ago 2 replies      
Great game! Love the simplicity!

I played a round, and got to 512. But toward the end I wasn't sure if I was actually playing with a strategy, or just pressing buttons randomly with some thinking involved.

So I built a script to randomly press the arrow keys[0]! I let it play a few games, and the highest it got to was 128 before consistently losing. So I guess you'll need some decent strategy to get to 2048.

0 - https://gist.github.com/Wayfarer247/9469272

AshleysBrain 7 days ago 0 replies      
Very cool. Spent a while trying to get a high score by thinking about it, but in the end managed to beat it just by pressing the arrow keys anticlockwise one after the other!
pedrocr 7 days ago 2 replies      
I think I have the beginning of a solution. The end result should be 2048 on the top-right corner (for the explanation). Always keep the highest value there. To do that never do a down without the right column filled and never do a left without the top row filled. Within those restrictions keep the top row in ascending order by building numbers on the left of the second row, so that they will match above and cascade right in powers of two.

I did this successfully for a while and then had no other option but a down without the rightmost column filled and lost my placement.

EDIT: A variation of this that works well is to only do up, left and right if at all possible. This keeps the highest values on top making it easier to match top-down. I've been stuck on 512 though.

Link- 7 days ago 0 replies      
Quick and dirty 'dumb' solver (might require manual intervention sometimes):

var manager = new GameManager(4, KeyboardInputManager, HTMLActuator);// Pattern definition (0: Up, 1: Right, 2: Down, 3: Left)var pattern = [1, 2, 3, 2];// Pattern Repeatervar i = 0;// Intervalvar solverInterval = window.setInterval(function() {// Check if game is overif (manager.over)clearInterval(solverInterval);// Repeat patternif (i % pattern.length == 0)i = 0;// Execute the movemanager.move(pattern[i]);i++;}, 200);
Best pattern found so far is "var pattern = [1, 0, 3, 0];" I reached 1024 with it. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21387598/1024-Best.png

tanushree 5 days ago 0 replies      
This game feels like life. I plan and make a move. Some pieces move exactly as I had wanted. A bunch of other pieces that I wasnt looking at, also move. Some of these unexpected results surprise me and make me happy, I even subconsciously take credit for them. Some others, I dont even notice. Its okay, there is too much going on.

Sometimes it feels too hard and pointless to plan, so I am pressing the arrows almost randomly. Need a break from thinking and taking responsibility. I just hope that I am going in the right direction. Sometimes I do, sometimes I dont. Its also hard to tell. Ah well.

Now Ive been doing pretty well at this for a while, I am getting pretty good I think, I have it all under control. A few moves later, before I even know it . oops! suddenly its all a mess! :(

But there are miracles also. Ive been in this mess for a bit now and its not much fun. Its slowed down and my heart is not in the right place. Suddenly, a couple of moves later, I am totally back in the game! I dont know if I know this, but it was barely my doing!

Of course, its this elusive goal (of 2048 or 42 or whatever else), its the reason why I keep going. I am pretty sure itll be really cool once I get there :)

grej 7 days ago 1 reply      
Love this! Just when you think that a genre like tile puzzle games has been completely done, something like this comes along and shows a new way of thinking about it.

The most amazing thing about this game is how it manages to be so creative and different while being so simple.

noonespecial 7 days ago 0 replies      
Oh! My productivity! It's like the "great sudoku disaster of '02" all over again!
themoonbus 7 days ago 1 reply      
This is one of those games that I do best on my first try when I have no idea what I'm doing, and then do worse and worse the more I think I have a strategy.

Fun though!

dergachev 7 days ago 0 replies      
The source code's here, in case anyone is interested: https://github.com/gabrielecirulli/2048
granttimmerman 7 days ago 4 replies      
Hey guys! I made a multiplayer version of this game in about an hour or so. (Twitch plays pokemon style)


Check it out! Or clone it! https://github.com/grant/hnplays2048

VonGuard 7 days ago 0 replies      
I've found simply pushing up, left, down, right, I can routinely outdo the score I can attain by actually playing with thought.... Kind of disappointing, but then I lost hours to this already. Fabulous game!
gyom 7 days ago 0 replies      
I never imagined that I would one day feel like I'm "downing in my own filth of useless powers of 2".
ISL 7 days ago 0 replies      
2048! Took ~4-5 hr. Thank you!
ssully 5 days ago 0 replies      
Finally had a chance to play Three's since it came out on android today and it honestly just made me want to play this more. The games are very similar, but 2048 is just more enjoyable to me.
dubcanada 7 days ago 0 replies      
I found that smashing the arrow keys was the most effective way to play this game.
Guillaume86 7 days ago 0 replies      
Nice, only thing I don't like in the game is that I do better scores just doing (repeat((left or right once) + (up till it doesn't work anymore))) than when I think about my moves...
scoofy 6 days ago 1 reply      
I feel like a crazy person, but when i play this game for a while, screen text appears smaller. Like it's messing with my eyes or something. Does anyone else feel this happening?
mightybyte 7 days ago 0 replies      
Oh, so close. Got a ways into the 1024 tile with a score of 12236.


farslan 7 days ago 1 reply      
Reminds me threes: http://asherv.com/threes/
richardlblair 7 days ago 1 reply      
Fuck you.

okay, awesome game.

Still, fuck you.

bromagosa 7 days ago 2 replies      
Ship it as a mobile app, seriously!
aeon10 6 days ago 0 replies      
Wrote a script which plays using a simple greedy approach. Chooses the current best option. Doesn't seem to get past 512 so far. It does however consistently get till 256. Just copy the code in the console and restart the game (space bar) to run.

Does anybody have a better approach? Other than randomize and trying your luck? Or maybe that is the best algorithm for this case..


just2n 7 days ago 0 replies      
A simple strategy of building along one side will get you to a 1024 tile every time, but getting to 2048 seems largely dependent on RNG. If you get tiles spawning where you want them, it's very easy. If not, it can actually be impossible.

It's unfortunate that RNG plays a significant role.

lrem 5 days ago 0 replies      
userbinator 7 days ago 1 reply      
I decided to take a look just because I saw this:

    2048 (gabrielecirulli.github.io)     1337 points by frederfred 8 hours ago

kyberias 7 days ago 0 replies      
Simple and creative! I like it a lot.
jballanc 6 days ago 0 replies      
I can't help but feel like there's a fairly simple heap invariant hiding in the solution here...
adnam 7 days ago 0 replies      
Welp, there goes the rest of my day
josteink 7 days ago 4 replies      
Animation doesn't seem to work in Firefox. Does nobody test in Firefox anymore?

This WebKit monoculture is getting quite anything. It's msie all over again...

pointernil 6 days ago 1 reply      
And now we start the social experiment:

"Will 2048 ever reach 2048 points on HN? And how long will it stay at exact that number of points?"

Good luck everyone! ;)

jozydapozy 5 days ago 0 replies      
This script will give you a keyboard-shortcut to skip the 'boring beginning' of the game. Run it a few times to get a nice starting point:

function arrows(key) { var eventObj = document.createEvent("Events"); eventObj.initEvent("keydown", true, true); eventObj.which = key; document.dispatchEvent(eventObj); }

document.onkeypress = function (e) { e = e || window.event; if (e.charCode = 122) { for (y=0; y<=100; y++) { arrows(39); arrows(38); arrows(37); arrows(38); } }};

var divje = document.createElement('div'); divje.innerHTML = "Press 'z' to fast forward ;)"; divje.style.position = 'fixed';divje.style.padding = '10px';divje.style.top = '10px';divje.style.left = '10px';document.body.appendChild(divje);

(some js based on script from varyform)

PaulJulius 7 days ago 0 replies      
I managed to get 2048 on my first try. Different enough from Threes to stay interesting, but a lot of the same strategy applies. In Threes though, the number that appears has a higher chance of being a bigger number (24, 48, even higher later) the longer the game goes on. There were a few times I was almost stuck and was able to get out of it by continually moving in the same direction and sucking up 2s.


gavinpc 6 days ago 0 replies      
The first step is admitting that you have 2^N problems.
platypii 7 days ago 0 replies      
Totally nerd sniped on this one. Will never get those hours back :-)

Meta question: Would it be possible to get 4096?

honksillet 7 days ago 0 replies      
While we are throwing around clones of threes, here is my SEXY clone of titled Menage a Threes. Heh.http://www.kongregate.com/games/honkskillet/menage-a-threes

Also, protip: to get high score choose one direction that you will never push towards. You'll end up with a gradient of high value tiles on one side, lower on the other, which desirable.

chx 5 days ago 0 replies      
http://i.imgur.com/LeGXQhA.png while I couldn't beat this, I believe this to be one of the highest score games possible :)
alxndr 4 days ago 0 replies      
I forked the repo and removed the "win" at getting tile 2048, so the game continues: http://alxndr.github.io/2-n/
Ellipsis753 7 days ago 0 replies      
I got a single square with 256 in it and a score of 2016 before I got bored. It's addictive and fun but a single game is much too long. I would like to lose a few times and improve but with a game this long I get bored before I've even lost the first time.
stanmancan 7 days ago 0 replies      
I just repeat Left => Up => Left => Up until I can't move any further, then "Right => Up => Left" before going back to the left up combo. Keeps the largest values top left and the values decrease towards the bottom right. Stacks the values well for combining and you can easily get 512 => 1024 without even looking.
tillinghast 7 days ago 0 replies      
Maybe Monday morning is finding me too pedantic, but this is similar to Threes (http://threesgame.com), not just like Threes. There are some pretty obvious differences, from the movement of the tiles to the requirements for tile mergers (multiples of 2 rather than 3). The comments thus far do not make that distinction.
rabino 7 days ago 0 replies      
Interesting (somewhat unrelated) question came up at work:

What's the theoretical max tile value you can get on Three.

daGrevis 7 days ago 0 replies      
Really addictive and well done!

Wanted to add that the author also created HN Special, an extension for Chrome that makes HN look decent and adds some useful niceties. https://github.com/gabrielecirulli/hn-special

K0nserv 7 days ago 0 replies      
I was horrible at this so I tried randomizing it instead. So far I am still beating random at 256, the randomized script has reached 128 at most


EDIT: Script reached my score of 256

EDIT2: Script reached 512

fdej 7 days ago 0 replies      
I got a score of 12640, not far off...

Very simple strategy: propagate large values upwards (never press down).

MattBearman 6 days ago 0 replies      
What a fucking game! Seriously, best game I've played in ages, and I only made it to 512. I don't think I'm gonna get much done today...
hayksaakian 7 days ago 0 replies      
5000 pts just doing up, down, left, right

I scored worse by actually thinking and applying strategy. this IS a difficult game.

abiglan 6 days ago 0 replies      
Egads this is excellent! As others have mentioned, would love to see a 5x5 variation and also be allowed to "keep going" after getting to 2048 to see how far you can go. I was disappointed that it ended and I had about half the squares empty and -might- have been able to get a 512 on the board as well.But just fantastic. Perfect balance of "speed when I want to blast through the easy levels" and "I need to think about the best next move" as well as try to construct an algorithm that helps get me to the endgame!
selter01 7 days ago 4 replies      
I wonder if there's an optimal strategy. Hmm.
throwaway420 6 days ago 0 replies      
Last 3 hours nothing but this.

Fuck I think I'm addicted.

Congrats on the next flappy bird.

intull 6 days ago 0 replies      
Is this the most upvoted most in HN? Maybe HN wants the number of votes to be 2048 :)
jackgavigan 6 days ago 0 replies      
Productivity approaching zero...
chanux 7 days ago 0 replies      

I have a suggestion that is different from the common. Other than taking this finely open game in to a walled garden, bring flattr or gittip there :).

jliptzin 6 days ago 0 replies      
This game is ridiculously addictive
adamwong246 7 days ago 0 replies      
Monday's productivity: obliterated.
arkad 3 days ago 0 replies      
Ha! Finally there! Score 26968 http://imgur.com/1PdBaZyTime killer of the year! ;)
rhapsodyv 4 days ago 0 replies      
It's the best of HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/best ... more than 2x of the second!!!!
jmnicolas 7 days ago 0 replies      
I don't know if I should thank you, curse you or burn my computer.

I will choose the lesser evil : burn the computer !

Thanks ;-)

mavhc 6 days ago 1 reply      
I feel like this game is a metaphor for buying SD cards.

Finally beat it, 20588.

ponytech 4 days ago 0 replies      
After having beaten 2048 we thought "what's next?". And we made 4096 : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7386557 :)
secondhandvape 7 days ago 0 replies      
My entire agile team is now impeded because of this game.
Pxtl 6 days ago 0 replies      
Done it! I rule! And now my evening is wasted.

Good game.

reignsly 5 days ago 0 replies      
Guys. I win :PI have created my own patterns and methods.

Tada! I got my 2048 tile :) So happy


aeiowu 7 days ago 0 replies      
Beat it on my first try: http://cl.ly/image/023K3o2F3X2P
breischl 7 days ago 1 reply      
Fun game! Now if only you can manage to get 2048 upvotes for it... :)
jobigoud 7 days ago 0 replies      
Ok, I give up. I managed to get a 512 and a 256 but then there is so little place to build up
Link- 4 days ago 0 replies      
Has this game beaten the record for HN front-page time? It's been 4 days now!
Aardwolf 7 days ago 0 replies      
Brilliant game, such simple concept but very addictive. Never seen this before. I love it.
apunic 6 days ago 0 replies      
'conceptually similar to Threes' should have been 'stolen from Threes'
thomasfoster96 7 days ago 0 replies      
The best thing about this game is that you can press the arrow keys randomly for about five minutes and anyone walking past thinks you're incredibly good at the game. Just make sure you lose after they walk past.
xerophtye 6 days ago 1 reply      
Why isn't this working for me?

Screenshot: http://imgur.com/9QzI3Z2

johncoltrane 4 days ago 0 replies      
Thank you, you effectively turned my 3 hours daily commute in instant teleportation.
karangoeluw 6 days ago 0 replies      
Ok maybe I'm missing it, but why is this game huge? I like this game, but I fail to see why it is THE top post on HN ever!
gulbrandr 7 days ago 0 replies      
What an amazing game, I like it very much!

Kudos to the creator for the perfect execution and design.

tectonic 7 days ago 0 replies      
Score of 5756 by hitting [left, right, up] repeatedly. Is there a pattern that always wins?
stefek99 6 days ago 0 replies      
After reading some comments I finally understood... It's not about creating [2] [_] [4] [8] line of tiles, but summing them so there is a tile of value '2048' (silly me)
canistr 7 days ago 1 reply      
Fascinating game. Would love to see how an AI would tackle this.
rpwverheij 3 days ago 0 replies      
still playing now and then -_-switched from stair tactics to snake tactics. http://i.imgur.com/KZtO7Es.jpg (try to keep the snake as short as possible)
littledot5566 7 days ago 1 reply      
Managers around the world grieve as they know millions of man hours will be lost.
frevd 6 days ago 0 replies      
Couldn't figure out how to play it at first - because in IE11 it doesn't work as intended - check your code.
whitecrow 3 days ago 0 replies      
Is anybody trying for score run, avoiding to make 2048? 29436 is my best so far.


freefrancisco 5 days ago 0 replies      
Finally solved the damn thing!
jay-saint 7 days ago 0 replies      
A seriously great way to spend 30 minutes on hold with Verizon.
beshrkayali 7 days ago 0 replies      
Just pure awesomeness! Been playing it for like an hour :)
bduerst 7 days ago 1 reply      
Edit: I have completely misunderstood this game.

Very fun though.

adispen 7 days ago 0 replies      
It was inevitable. Twitch Plays 2048(http://www.twitch.tv/twitchplays2048)
mauricio-OH 6 days ago 0 replies      
It took me 5 attempts: http://d.pr/i/vxBd

The key is big numbers at the bottom

arijitraja 6 days ago 0 replies      
I was searching on google and quora trying to know what are ideal posts for hackers on HN. Thanks - your post just just answered my question!
mathgladiator 6 days ago 0 replies      
BAM! 20880 points! Got to 2048
deevus 6 days ago 0 replies      
2732 just by spamming keys for 10 seconds.
PButcher93 7 days ago 0 replies      
Depressing that my highest block so far after ~1hr play time is less than the number of upvotes this HN post has.

Great game by the way!

peshkira 7 days ago 2 replies      
I love it! Really great and well done.

I'd appreciate it, if someone can share a few more links with similar puzzlers on the web.

Link- 6 days ago 0 replies      
This is so close to 2048 upvotes btw.. (1997 so far)
taternuts 7 days ago 0 replies      
This thing is evil - stop killing my time!!!!

Great work!

cordite 6 days ago 0 replies      
After about 14 minutes, I got to 1024. It was enjoyable, but is hard when you can't swap values. http://puu.sh/7r2eH.png
sekasi 7 days ago 0 replies      
A little bit too similar to 'threes' on the app store.. I like it, but again, it's too much of a ripoff.
GFunc 7 days ago 0 replies      
This is going to get me in trouble....thanks
sebnukem2 4 days ago 0 replies      
I want my life back :(
jfc 7 days ago 0 replies      
This is awesome.
mattholtom 7 days ago 0 replies      
Dude, what a mechanic that is! Just spent 1/2 hour in no time. Expand featureset, apply to PSN, profit.
giis 7 days ago 0 replies      
First try scored 2908 Its a very addictive game! Good work!
dblotsky 6 days ago 0 replies      
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it takes a minimum of 1024 turns to win the game.
Morphling 6 days ago 0 replies      
Why is there no win state if you get 2048?
hkbarton 7 days ago 0 replies      
Stop me! I can't stop to play this! 45min passed!
summerdown2 7 days ago 0 replies      
Very addictive and lots of fun :)
Globz 7 days ago 0 replies      
Very fun and good looking game! Somehow I find it easier than Threes, awesome game!!
robocaptain 7 days ago 0 replies      
Ugggg... why was this posted during the 7-Day Roguelike Competition week?? :)
ekspreso 6 days ago 0 replies      
Wow, after nearly 5 hours I managed to win it. Great game. :)
jamesxwatkins 7 days ago 0 replies      
Everything I had planned today has been put on hold until further notice. :)
brickcap 7 days ago 2 replies      
has anyone managed to beat it yet?
SmileyKeith 7 days ago 0 replies      
This is a great game!
daleco 6 days ago 1 reply      
I finally won! 2048 with a score of 20556. This game is evil!
ddanielou 6 days ago 0 replies      
Won with 21056, after about one billion failed games. Man, that game is the ultimate procrastination machine: rids you of absolutely all of your time and gives you the feeling that you actually accomplished something.
veganarchocap 7 days ago 0 replies      
God damn that's addictive, final score: 3040 about an hour wasted at work :P Great concept though, love it.
kaushikt 6 days ago 0 replies      
There are minor differences between this and threes
visualR 7 days ago 1 reply      
Touch support please!
seanv 7 days ago 1 reply      
booom 3688 http://awesomescreenshot.com/0db2gytp66 (is that good??)
brickcap 7 days ago 1 reply      
Are there any cheat codes?
benkitty 6 days ago 0 replies      
Here's my Processing.js clone in 42 lines: http://www.ktbyte.com/textbook/gamewalkthroughs
AnitoKid 6 days ago 0 replies      
Great game! Addicting! And I kid you not!
chaoskid 7 days ago 0 replies      
I didn't do anything at work today. Thanks.
palanic 2 days ago 0 replies      
Scored 21480 and won the game. It' nice.
janson0 6 days ago 0 replies      
First Try: 2068 pts. 256 highest block...
bitswreck 3 days ago 0 replies      
2048! Took ~2 hours. One evil game! Great job Gabriel.
DrBazza 6 days ago 0 replies      
This is annoyingly addictive.
mikemai2awesome 7 days ago 0 replies      
The first few times I tried to play, I kept thinking the objective was to get the number 2048 across the first row. Haha.
srahsrahyoung 7 days ago 0 replies      
By tapping the arrows in a clockwise pattern, left-up-right-down-left-etc I got 512 and a score of 6360.
seventytwo 7 days ago 1 reply      
Has anyone beaten this yet?
duochrome 6 days ago 0 replies      
I don't get it...
keren778 5 days ago 0 replies      
I wanna my productivity back for me paper!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
karanA 6 days ago 0 replies      
When does game get over?I mean is there some threshold number of moves?
insider03 4 days ago 0 replies      
awesome game! very addictive!
jigneshhk 6 days ago 0 replies      
Awesome loving it!
kamweti 6 days ago 0 replies      
Don't play while cooking, I've learned my lesson
rsanaie 7 days ago 0 replies      
Complete time fuck
jheriko 7 days ago 1 reply      
neat little game :)
sdegutis 6 days ago 0 replies      
Please add "undo" feature. Thank you.
reignsly 6 days ago 1 reply      
I just scored 21748. Oh men It's Addictive :)
tracyma 7 days ago 0 replies      
what's the key to get high score?
amjaeger 7 days ago 0 replies      
this is driving me crazy
amjaeger 5 days ago 0 replies      
finally beat it
vrikis 7 days ago 0 replies      
I love this, fun to play :)
fractalb 6 days ago 0 replies      
camus2 7 days ago 0 replies      
Elon Musk: To the People of New Jersey teslamotors.com
1190 points by zipop  3 days ago   398 comments top 41
grellas 3 days ago 6 replies      
Paternalistic meddling with free consumer choices is always fraught with peril.

Sometimes it is necessary to protect important principles in society. You can't discriminate based on race - that limits choice but who would support the contrary? You can't defraud people in selling products - ditto. You can't buy land to build a smokestack plant in a quiet residential neighborhood - ditto. Many other examples might be cited. In all such cases, the law intervenes to limit private choices. And there are few who would not applaud most such limits. Private choice is not the end all and be all of a society.

Yet, in a free society, private choice should be the overwhelming norm and it should require surmounting very large barriers before legal meddling can limit the choices people can make to serve their own best interests.

Unfortunately, in old-line industries, this idea got flipped and, for years, private choice succumbed to whatever a combination of big government, big corporations, and big unions dictated to the public. Back in the day, writers such as John Kenneth Galbraith even used to celebrate the idea of a "new industrial state" in which the old private competition would yield to ever increasing concentrations of power among government, industry, and labor, who would in turn find ways to "cooperate" with one another in ushering in a more enlightened form of carving up markets and their benefits than mere freedom and competition might provide.

Well, the bureaucratic edict in New Jersey is a relic of that old thinking, perhaps perversely and cynically applied to buy off lobbyists and influencers but rationalized nonetheless by the old paternalistic thinking that the consumer is ultimately best served by having his betters making his buying choices for him rather than being allowed to make them for himself.

Other than in this cynical sense, there is no possible way in which this outrage can possibly be characterized as "protecting" the consumer.

Perhaps the main contribution made by the tech revolution since the 1970s is that it ushered in an era of huge freedom in how people managed their private lives. The internet in particular has been a huge liberating force and so young people especially have come to take it for granted that they can freely make all sorts of choices without having to feel burdened or restricted by the heavy hand of the law. Of course, exceptions can and do remain because abuses can pop up in all sorts of ways without any legal restraints. But, that said, the overwhelming presumption today is that, yes, I can do pretty much what I feel is best for me unless there is a very good reason why I should be restricted from doing so.

And that means, if I live in New Jersey, I should be able to find a local Tesla outlet in which I can buy my electric car if I want. The thought that some politician or bureaucrat should be able to dictate serious limits on that choice is repugnant to anyone who thinks that way. And, in my view, rightly so.

Unfortunately, where the old political pull persists, the law can be abused to protect old-line market players under some guise or other that is a mere pretext for guarding them from competitors who might offer something better and wind up dislodging them in a free market. Legal regulation is not to be rejected out of hand, of course. Maybe the old-line taxi services ought not to have their business cherry-picked by new market entrants who do things differently. Maybe there ought to be some limits in an urban context on absolute free space-letting if this creates nuisances or the like. The line can sometimes be tricky to draw and can require careful and fair-minded judgments given the interests at stake. But how often do we have situations where nothing of the kind happens and instead the issues are decided, in essence, by who pays off whom and who has what degree of political or bureaucratic pull that can be used to protect systems and structures that are far inferior to what the new competition might offer.

I believe that, in these sorts of cases, the tech impetus will ultimately prevail and push things toward broader and freer areas of choice for consumers. Even with this rear-guard action in New Jersey, Teslas can be bought direct from the manufacturer just a short distance away or via remote ordering. And tech-inspired sales and distribution methods in this and a broad swath of other fields will mean that those seeking to limit consumer choice by protecting local turf through bureaucratic pull will be fighting what will ultimately prove to be a losing battle. As consumers, we are not bottled up anymore. If we don't like something that is really stupid, we can more and more work around it using other solutions.

And so we can, I think, basically see that what the local commission is trying to do in New Jersey is much more a last gasp for the old ways as opposed to being a harbinger that will limit Tesla (or any similar new-wave competitor) from accomplishing its goals. Tesla is right to oppose and fight it (and presents a compelling argument for its view). But the action stands out as so bizarre precisely because it is so out of step with the tech impetus that rules our day. It will stand legally (courts are loathe to intervene in such matters). But the longer-term political winds are against it, in my view, and it will prove a temporary obstacle at most as the modern tech impetus advances.

skore 3 days ago 6 replies      
> An even bigger conflict of interest with auto dealers is that they make most of their profit from service, but electric cars require much less service than gasoline cars. There are no oil, spark plug or fuel filter changes, no tune-ups and no smog checks needed for an electric car. Also, all Tesla Model S vehicles are capable of over-the-air updates to upgrade the software, just like your phone or computer, so no visit to the service center is required for that either.

Gotta hand it to Musk - that's some smooth salestalk in what is supposed to be just voicing a public opinion against shady politics. I was halfway through the third sentence when I caught myself thinking - "indeed, that does sound like such a better dea--- Hey wait a minute!". Musk, you sneaky bastard! Never missing a chance to remind me why I want a dang tesla.

He is right and it's a terrific salespitch. That's the best kind of right.

nlh 3 days ago 5 replies      
His best line:

> The rationale given for the regulation change that requires auto companies to sell through dealers is that it ensures 'consumer protection'. If you believe this, Gov. Christie has a bridge closure he wants to sell you! Unless they are referring to the mafia version of 'protection', this is obviously untrue.

Nicely done, Elon. Nicely done.

bfe 3 days ago 1 reply      
Just last week, Elon argued against a different legal monopoly, for national security launch services by the Boeing-Lockheed joint venture. [1]

It's amazing how much building a new company in a supposedly free market requires arguing against politicians who claim to champion free market economics, but who actually use government to give cushy monopolies to incumbents with big lobbying budgets.

"Crony capitalism" isn't an accurate term for this; it's more like economic central planning by way of lobbyists instead of communist bureaus.

1. http://www.spacex.com/press/2014/03/05/elon-musks-statement-...


smacktoward 3 days ago 2 replies      
> The evidence is clear: when has an American startup auto company ever succeeded by selling through auto dealers? The last successful American car company was Chrysler, which was founded almost a century ago, and even they went bankrupt a few years ago, along with General Motors. Since the founding of Chrysler, there have been dozens of failures, Tucker and DeLorean being simply the most well-known. In recent years, electric car startups, such as Fisker, Coda, and many others, attempted to use auto dealers and all failed.

This part works better as an argument for "don't start a car company" than anything else.

I mean, yes, Tucker and DeLorean and Fisker et al used dealers, and they all failed, but that doesn't mean that they failed because they used dealers. The people who worked for them all consumed oxygen, too; it doesn't follow that we'd all be driving DeLoreans today if only we lived in an artificial vacuum.

I appreciate where he's coming from, and I think he should be allowed to sell his cars directly to anyone who wants to buy one that way, but shoddy "correlation equals causation" arguments don't help his case.

mncolinlee 3 days ago 1 reply      
Having bought a Nissan LEAF, I can say with confidence that traditional auto dealers are where electric vehicles go unsold. Numerous members of our electric auto owners group share the same exact stories.

You go to the dealer specifically asking for an electric car and the salesman tries to make you change your mind to another vehicle. Considering the bonus structure at most dealerships, there is no incentive to sell an electric vehicle.

First, the dealership may choose not to participate in selling electric models at all.

Second, there is usually only one or two people allowed to sell an electric vehicle because your salesperson was not trained. Who wants to lose a customer and a bonus to another salesman?

Third, it takes longer to sell an electric vehicle because you have to explain everything that gas car owners already take for granted. You make less money by spending more time. This also leads most salesmen to push for 10% over MSRP, harming sales.

Finally, some very corrupt dealers go so far as to deliberately discharge their vehicles and leave them that way so they won't have to try selling them. Dealers have little incentive to sell the entire lineup of manufacturer vehicles if they have to train and hire more sales staff for one model. Some dealership owners may even may be politically opposed to the idea of electric vehicles.

mrt0mat0 3 days ago 9 replies      
It blows my mind that in a country that preaches a free-market economy, the government is preventing a company from selling a superior product. I'm pretty sure people will still buy the car if they want to, and in time, those car companies will go under anyway, but why slow down progress?
bane 3 days ago 4 replies      
The truth is, car dealerships, which are mostly locally owned, are a way for a state to boost revenue capture and generate jobs. In New Jersey, not being able to pump your own gas is the same deal.

Look at the economics of a Tesla dealership, for every car sold in New Jersey, how much of that money stays in New Jersey? And let's be honest, being a car salesman is not the most lucrative or respectable of trades. The jobs are usually temporary so down on their luck folks can try and earn some money while looking for something else. Ensuring a state has dealerships possibly out of work people can fall into for temporary jobs is like having a social welfare program without having it on the books.

It sucks, but if you were a legislator in NJ, would you rather Tesla's profit went all out of state to Tesla, or if your citizens could get a crack at some of it and have it circulate around in the local economy for a bit.

It's unpopular, and us tech folks don't like it, but from a NJ legislator's position it's pretty rational.

The correct answer of course is to foster a local auto industry and get a company to make and build and sell cars from out of NJ elsewhere. But that's too impossibly forward looking.

jusben1369 3 days ago 9 replies      
Musk is massively disingenuous and rather insulting to our intelligence. But he's a heck of a salesman and makes a wonderful car. Like many persuasive people he arrives at an answer and backs into rationale but makes it appear the other way around.

I'll give you just one example. The law of the land in NJ is that you can't sell in NJ unless through a dealership. That's the current law. Those laws need to change to allow a direct to consumer sale. Map that to this quote "ended your right to purchase vehicles at a manufacturer store within the state." Brilliant. "You lost something you had" is so much more powerful than "We need to persuade the legislator to make a change to add something new"

Seriously, I dig his cars. And his vision. And I suspect that to attack such large entrenched markets you have to have this kind of maniacal drive. I just hate being misled and manipulated - no matter who the person.

sheetjs 3 days ago 3 replies      
> the auto dealer franchise laws were originally put in place for a just cause and are now being twisted to an unjust purpose

... and Christie can argue that allowing Tesla creates a slippery slope whereby Ford and GM and other companies end up crushing the franchisees that the law intended to protect.

Musk is trying to find a middle ground that just doesn't exist unless you accept governments creating one-off laws that specifically recognizes individual corporations.

flyinglizard 3 days ago 2 replies      
Look beyond this local issue, and you'll see how we're in the middle of a huge power shift. It used to be that businessmen like Musk had to lobby, pressure and bribe, now they just need to appeal directly to the public, completely bypassing the political system in the process.

It hasn't started with Musk, of course. The most obvious display of such power was the website blackout that led to the SOPA repeal. That showed politicians who really holds the power. These companies barely flex their muscles either; just imagine what would happen if Google decided to get into public shaming in its homepage for entities trying to block its Fiber initiative.

The public no longer believes politicians, but they all believe Zuckerberg, Page and Musk. That makes for an interesting future.

caycep 3 days ago 3 replies      
Throwing it down publicly to Chris Christie - now that is confidence!
a1a 3 days ago 1 reply      
> all Tesla Model S vehicles are capable of over-the-air updates to upgrade the software, just like your phone or computer

It's an interesting future. We are approaching the age of malware infected cars. Does anyone have more info about what the limitations of this internet connected system is? What is possible if someone roots my car?

- Can they disable security system?

- Unlock the car? Lock me out of the car?

- Feed false data (slow destruction of car)? Feed false speed-data? False directions?

- Obtain the cars whereabouts?

- Disable breaks (would assume not)?

Edmond 3 days ago 6 replies      
I hope people don't forget the profit motive of Mr Musk. It seems technology entrepreneurs have adopted the rhetoric of "just trying to make the world a better place" while conveniently ignoring their own profit making motives. I am no friend of car dealers but I am also not going to be suckered by a self-serving sales pitch.

While I don't necessarily support the NJ move, I think we should start asking questions about economic value flow. If people live in one place yet all their economic activity is directed to some place on the other side of the country, what is the long term effect of this on their local economy?

I don't exclude myself, we all use these web services that are highly concentrated in SV, what is going to happen to our local economies?

atmosx 3 days ago 2 replies      
Could someone explain to a European, in simple words, how the franchise-dealer-factory thing works?

If a dealer is the company who actually sales cars and the factory is the one that produces them, why do they need a franchise in between? And how come that a dealer is comparable to a manufacturer Tesla? Why do they have conflict of interests selling non-gasoline cars?!

kator 1 day ago 0 replies      
My father worked for 30+ years in auto dealerships. He was a mechanic and in the end worked his way up as the service manager. It was made clear to him that sales had to make money and service had to make money and they didn't care how it was done. He is a good and honorable man and even quit one dealership because they pushed crazy service incentives on service writers to up-sell every kind of service you can imagine. That said in the end he retired early because the dealership he was at was bought by a consortium of dealerships and they let him know that his service shop wasn't as profitable as needed and that he needed to up-sell more services to the customers.

In the end dealerships are about making money from their clients by "adding value". Sadly most of the time that value is having the black car in stock -vs- someone down the street who only has the blue one.

It's sad to see a government more concerned about backing the establishment then creating an environment for free trade and new business models.

ZeGoggles 2 days ago 0 replies      
"The rationale given for the regulation change that requires auto companies to sell through dealers is that it ensures consumer protection. If you believe this, Gov. Christie has a bridge closure he wants to sell you! Unless they are referring to the mafia version of protection, this is obviously untrue."

This is weird. Really weird. It's raw and exaggerated...almost a cartoon. I'd believe this is raw Elon Musk, but why is someone letting raw Elon Musk define this campaign? Remember raw Bill Gates? Did we learn nothing from that? Or maybe we learned a lot. And "we" have developed an affinity--a need--for the brash genius.

I'm probabilistically wrong--Tesla's doing well. But something about this appeal, the wording, makes me react atavistically, "Go fuck yourself. Nothing is obvious."

I had an argument here, but it didn't seem important, so whatever. Dogecoin and such. Also hyperloop. But really, hyperloop. But remember, I was right about New Jersey. Poor New Jersey.

SurfScore 3 days ago 1 reply      
Our stores will transition to being galleries, where you can see the car and ask questions of our staff, but we will not be able to discuss price or complete a sale in the store. However, that can still be done at our Manhattan store just over the river in Chelsea or our King of Prussia store near Philadelphia.

"Cross an imaginary line a few miles down the road that the auto dealers can't access and everything will be A-OK!"

This is everything that is wrong with politics in a sentence.

easymovet 3 days ago 3 replies      
Very saddened by the blatant corruption in our government. Where do I vote for a new government based on ethics and accountability (apart from New Zealand).
Systemic33 3 days ago 1 reply      
So much for the american "free market"...

What a joke.

As a european, i can't even comprehend how ludicruous it sounds that a business can't sell it's goods directly. It's so outrageously wrong, that I can't find words that fit adequately.

rayiner 3 days ago 0 replies      
> The rationale given for the regulation change that requires auto companies to sell through dealers is that it ensures consumer protection. If you believe this, Gov. Christie has a bridge closure he wants to sell you!

One of the things I love about Elon Musk, besides the fact that he has the balls to tackle hard, capital-intensive problems, is that he has a pragmatic, realist approach. Getting SpaceX NASA contracts was not something everyone would have done, not when many were marching to the drumbeat of "private space exploration is superior to public." And apparently, he's not being above throwing a recent scandal in Chris Christie's face.

The whole article is a great play though. Note that he starts by explaining the rationale for the existing laws, validating their original purpose, then showing why that rationale doesn't apply to Tesla. This is wonderful persuasive writing.

dangoldin 3 days ago 3 replies      
So it seems you can still buy it online. Does that mean you can go into a dealership and just buy it on your phone?
rdtsc 3 days ago 1 reply      
Is it possible for Tesla to just create a shell "autodealer dealer" company in each state. I am guessing they thought of that and legal language prevents its from working.
ValG 3 days ago 0 replies      
This just got reposted on the NPR site, it's highly relevant and timely along with this law and Elon's response:


In it, some argue that "A no haggle, painless car buying experience will eventually come; but it won't be without your local dealers"

I wouldn't be so sure. As Elon states, the fundamentals of the industry haven't changed in quite a while. He's approaching it from one direction (The cars/manufacturing and sale of new cars), and others (like myself and partners) are going directly after the used car Buying/Selling process. Our goal is to make it as easy as possible for Sellers/Buyers to transact. Check us out here:


zobzu 2 days ago 0 replies      
I think the major point is that we want to be on his side. As long as hes not saying or doing something completely wrong, I'm sure we all agree there are huge issues with the govt, laws and corruption and that any strong voice attempting to fix this is a good thing.

There's also a lack in innovation and lead from the US market in various technologies.

Elon Musk took all of these things head on and keeps doing so all the time. What's not to like, I would ask?

I am 100% behind the man as long as he keeps doing so.

lnanek2 2 days ago 0 replies      
This is pretty standard for New Jersey. It's common for money from highway projects to get diverted, or tolls to go into people's pockets long after roads were paid for, etc..
chris_mahan 3 days ago 1 reply      
That's some good writing by Elon, by the way.

Perhaps it went through an editor or two, for typos and such, but I have to say I find his style engaging...

(Disclaimer: If I had the money I'd buy a tesla, and I am an investor.)

rdl 3 days ago 0 replies      
It's interesting that Christie seems to have totally given up on being a viable national political candidate, after the drive slow thing with the bridges, this, and some other issues.
AgathaTheWitch 1 day ago 0 replies      
I will be glad to move out of Jersey (likely next year). I live in Fort Lee and was trapped in "Bridgegate" traffic last fall. My cautious optimism over Christie has faded over the years as he has so transparently started focusing on positioning for 2016. This cave-in to the dealership lobby is just another reason to take my talents and tax dollars elsewhere.
Jugurtha 1 day ago 0 replies      
"To the People of New Jersey".. I can picture a Marsian saying this. Oh wait, it's Elon Musk :)
acd 2 days ago 1 reply      
I think that oil is poison for humanity, it leads to resource conflicts and providing money for evil governments. Thus we need to get off oil to have long term peace on earth.

Elon Musk is a hero

pbreit 3 days ago 0 replies      
In case you missed this last year, Tesla's vision for servicing and customer delight is refreshingly progressive: http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/creating-world%E2%80%99s-bes...
zipop 3 days ago 6 replies      
I'm not opposed to what Musk is trying to do but how or why are auto dealers a monopoly? Those direct sales laws were originally created to preserve small business.
hyp0 2 days ago 0 replies      
such pleasure to read Musk. he's got that evangelial air... of course, it helps that he's in the right.

I wonder if he'll end up Emperor of Mars?

sidcool 2 days ago 0 replies      
The ugly side of capitalism. But that does not make the whole system bad. There are those who will always stall progress for profits, and there are those who will surmount the bullies. Go Elon!
tinalumfoil 3 days ago 0 replies      
TL;DR: Elon Musk disagrees with the decision and viciously attacks Chris Christie , Auto Dealers, the State of NJ and compares their reasoning to the mafia. He also encourages you to buy a tesla car before the laws take into effect. Tesla will continue to lobby and possibly sue for a change.
EGreg 3 days ago 1 reply      
Musk's sales around the country are probably going up thanks to this event, and his taking the opportunity to tout Teslas using facts :)
larrys 3 days ago 4 replies      
"An even bigger conflict of interest with auto dealers is that they make most of their profit from service, but electric cars require much less service than gasoline cars. There are no oil, spark plug or fuel filter changes, no tune-ups and no smog checks needed for an electric car."

Well then what about BMW with bumper to bumper service as only one example. That's a high end car that you don't pay for service for (iirc) 3 years. They cover everything. Wiper blades you name it. I think last I checked the same was true for Subaru and I think even Jeep Chrysler is doing this (may be wrong about that one).

And that's not a conflict of interest but rather a business model. In the case of cars which do make money from service they therefore in theory have a lower price for the vehicle.

This argument is like saying that you are a better airline because you don't charge for luggage. Presumably that extra revenue allows you to offer lower ticket prices. And surprise that is what happens. Back when airlines were regulated (and had less competition) and they charged way higher prices they didn't have to nickle and dime you to make a profit.

sadfnjksdf 2 days ago 0 replies      
NJ can just buy from nearby states. Not a good solution, but whatever.
puppetmaster3 3 days ago 0 replies      
Musk, you need to make donation to the right politicians. N00b.
larrys 3 days ago 0 replies      
"Moreover, it is much harder to sell a new technology car from a new company when people are so used to the old. Inevitably, they revert to selling whats easy and it is game over for the new company."

That's total BS. Any dealer who invests money in a new show room to sell a new brand of car (think of Mini which was picked up by many legacy BMW dealers and is sold in many mini only showrooms) is going to put in the effort to sell the product. We aren't talking about putting Teslas on the same floor as Mercedes. It would be trivial for Tesla to insist that the product be sold out of a dedicated facility which would cost a dealer money to construct. The idea that that dealer would simply push another product (or the salesman) in another showroom that he operates is ridiculous. And contrary to the behavior of existing multi line large dealerships.

The Face Behind Bitcoin? newsweek.com
1097 points by warrenmiller  11 days ago   677 comments top 87
bane 11 days ago 40 replies      
Topic other than discussing the irresponsibility of "outing" a guy using the clever tricks of using his name and public records look ups.

> A libertarian, Nakamoto encouraged his daughter to be independent, start her own business and "not be under the government's thumb," she says. "He was very wary of the government, taxes and people in charge."

> What you don't know about him is that he's worked on classified stuff. His life was a complete blank for a while. You're not going to be able to get to him.

Growing up and living in the D.C. area, I'm constantly surprised at the paradox of the deeply conservative anti-federal government types who work for the government - directly or as a fed contractor. Who'll rattle off about privacy issues before hopping on the bus to their job working on an NSA contract at a Fed contractor...that sort of thing.

I've even pointed out point-blank that their salaries are paid for by the same taxes they rail against incessantly and are met with blank stares or wry grimaces before they launch into an extended soliloquy about "values" or personal responsibility or some such. I've even had folks in the military swear up and down that some military benefit program isn't a result of tax payer dollars but mysteriously appears out of some kind of pay differential sacrifice they've made instead of working in the private sector.

It's rather bizarre and I guess to Nakamoto's credit, he actually did something about it in a sense.

edit meta-response to the replies indicating that perhaps his close contact with the government is what motivated him to develop bitcoin, I think that's plausible. What we don't know is if he developed this philosophy before or after working with the government.

I'm curious though, in the general sense about people who have a fundamentally anti-government philosophy, then take roles supporting and building up the same government they clog their facebook feeds rallying against.

nwh 11 days ago 16 replies      
Being labeled Satoshi regardless of truth is pretty much going to get you robbed, kidnapped or killed. This dude lives in this town and has $400M of untraceable currency? The article gives his name, face, address and relatives. You can be sure as hell that somebody will do something stupid to try and get to it.

I wouldn't wish this label upon anybody, it's exactly why the community tries to avoid speculating about it. It's extremely irresponsible of the newspaper to publish this truth or otherwise especially in such vivid detail.

Article sans paywall http://archive.is/wbw97

Gavin seems to acknowledge the article https://twitter.com/gavinandresen/status/441547758827474946

jxf 11 days ago 7 replies      
So Newsweek outed a guy who allegedly owns half a billion dollars in pseudo-untraceable, digital cash? I hope they're also going to chip in for a permanent security detail...

More seriously, I think they could have done a better job reporting on the identity without giving so much away:

* A picture of his house is posted, identical to the one in Google Street View

* The license plate is relatively clear in the high-resolution image

* His exact address has more or less already been discovered using only the information in the article

* Full names of family members were used

It's a legitimate story -- understanding Nakomoto's motivations for creating Bitcoin as discovered from his past is a worthwhile topic. (For example, would your feelings about cryptocurrency change if it turned out Nakomoto was a high-level NSA operative?) But, again, it could have been reported in a way that didn't compromise his identity so thoroughly.

Blahah 11 days ago 4 replies      
The author of the piece can be reached in these ways:


If you think this article is a dangerous invasion of privacy, tell her and her employers (Newsweek).

dTal 11 days ago 1 reply      
Wait, it was just a single smart dude whose actual real name is Satoshi Nakamoto, and here we've been theorizing shadowy pseudonymous cabals of libertarian cryptographers?

I feel very silly.

argumentum 11 days ago 5 replies      
Quite an odd article for such an important (if true) expose. The only reason I think its possibly true is Gavin's vague tweet.

50% of the article deals with material about bitcoin that is redundant to anyone whose been following it for more than a day (like most here).

45% deals with "Dorian S. Nakamoto"'s family, personal background and that he's a libertarian oddball, with a penchant for math (but no other significant accomplishment within it or CS) who (other than possible being the Satoshi) has led a fairly normal, middle class southern california lifestyle.

The remaining 5% or so details a brief encounter with the man, in which he neither confirms or denies it.

I'm skeptical.

frogpelt 11 days ago 1 reply      
This is Newsweek's watershed. They're laying Satoshi Nakamoto on the line to recreate their brand as a hard-hitting journalism publication.


EDIT: The relevant parts of the wiki article are at the end of the first section.

1. Newsweek merged with The Daily Beast.

2. Newsweek ceased print publication and transitioned to an all-digital format.

3. IBT Media acquired Newsweek. IBT Media plans to relaunch a print edition of Newsweek on March 7, 2014. (Guess what today is!)

acjohnson55 11 days ago 0 replies      
I'll probably be slammed for this, but I actually think it's a pretty good piece. Maybe it could do without the picture of Satoshi's house, but it probably wouldn't be so hard to find the house anyway if you know you're looking for an actual "Satoshi Nakamoto in Temple City".

If the dude hadn't used his real name, we'd probably still be wondering who he is. So I think the indignation is a bit misplaced. It's not at all uncommon or nefarious for news reports to be written about people who don't particularly want the coverage.

efuquen 11 days ago 0 replies      
I'm going to skirt the ethical questions being asked, assuming everything done to get this information was legal and such and the accuracy of it lives within the bounds of journalistic integrity (of course none of that necessarily makes it ethical, but like I said, circumventing that question for now).

All that said, by the number of reactions I'm reading here I get the impression that in the Bitcoin world someone with a significant amount of wealth has to fear for their life? What is the difference between Satoshi Nakamoto and any other individual of significant wealth, i.e. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Rupert Murdoch, etc. While I don't have any exact addresses or other information about these people on hand, I'm sure I could get it rather easily.

The emphasis I keep seeing is on how he has $400 M of "pseudo-untraceable, digital cash" and assume the concern is something along the lines of it would be more difficult to extract that much from Bill Gates if you attacked/kidnapped him and get away with it vs Bitcoin, which you could theoretically extract the keys guarding the coin from the victim and quickly transfer out to other wallets without much issue.

So, the gist I'm getting, is that in the world of crypto-currency if you get wealthy ... man you better watch out because people are going to be gunning for you to steal your coin by force if they ever find out where you live. Live In Fear. If this is the great future of finance you all envision, then I really wouldn't want any part of it.

*Side note, I really don't believe any of the above but given some of the responses I've seen I think we need to take a step back and examine the conclusions that would result from some of the statements being made.

blakesterz 11 days ago 8 replies      
"What?" The police officer balks. "This is the guy who created Bitcoin? It looks like he's living a pretty humble life."

That quote smells totally fake to me. There's just no way some random office would know what Bitcoin is, and even if he did, that's not something a police officer would say. I don't know what that says about the rest of the article, but that quote doesn't read very factual to me.

lucb1e 11 days ago 1 reply      
> "Dorian can just be paranoid," says Tokuo. "I cannot get through to him. I don't think he will answer any of these questions to his family truthfully."

What the hell, if many family members are so eager to forward questions from the press to him and spill anything they know, I can totally understand Satoshi doesn't answer them truthfully. I also feel very sorry for Satoshi's position in which he doesn't seem to have anyone to talk to truthfully :/

> Of course, none of this puts to rest the biggest question of all - the one that only Satoshi Nakamoto himself can answer: What has kept him from spending his hundreds of millions of dollars of Bitcoin

Isn't it obvious? It would destabilize the market and begin a huge frenzy to find out who he is, and he knows it. Now the latter is a moot point, but I can totally understand he doesn't want to backstab his brainchild.

Besides, who says he didn't mine other coins early on anonymously for his own use? Wasn't the point of Bitcoin that you can't know who's who? If he did this and got some money, he totally deserved it.

Steko 11 days ago 1 reply      
Shorter HN:

Would you all just think of the poor superrich for a minute? Clearly they are the ones in our society who need special protections and immunities from journalism.

cyphunk 11 days ago 0 replies      
> "For anyone who's tried to wire money overseas, you can see how much easier an international Bitcoin transaction is. It's just as easy as sending an email." -- Bitcoin's chief scientist, Gavin Andresen

No actually it's only as easy as Western Union is. You either have to take a huge cut due to localbitcoin or other markups for markets that avoid the normal route of... registering at an exchange, giving them all your details which will take weeks to months, whom will then place major limits on what you can transfer (no more than a $2k-$10k) and potentially crash burn and be robbed while you wait for your FIAT.

So actually it's like transferring money between two Western Union branches that are both in war zones and staffed with employees taken from the DMV.

jbondeson 11 days ago 1 reply      
I'm torn about the article. On one hand this seems like a horrid breach of privacy and a terribly dangerous thing to do. On the other, even if they just said he lives in his family home in California, people were going to find out all this information.

Half of me thinks it's better everyone knows they were doxed all at once.

cyanbane 11 days ago 1 reply      
I am not a big fan of the way the article was written, but I can definitely see how some may decry it as being news worthy.

I think the author should be ashamed for posting a picture of this man's house. No need for that and it doesn't add to the story after the description.

m_myers 11 days ago 1 reply      
> You have reached the limit of 5 free articles a month.

I haven't read any Newsweek articles this month. And it appears I'm not going to, either.

Google cache link for anyone else who gets the same message: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?output=search&s...

sktrdie 11 days ago 3 replies      
Here's a comment left on a forum by this Dorian person: https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/preserved-bars...

Satoshi's punctuation style with the double-space after the dot is a distinctive feature of his writing, used in both the official Bitcoin publication and on forum posts.

Looking at the HTML source of that review, you can notice this exact punctuation style.

atmosx 11 days ago 0 replies      
Cool article but says virtually nothing. We have:

* A smart man, according to the article* Who worked for the government at some point in time (according to the article)* Who's name is Satoshi Nakamoto* Who values privacy (so much that he used his real name LOL)

So apart from the stalking and extremely irritating privacy breach this article shows about Newsweek's[1] journalists and chosen course of action, proves or states nothing.

He didn't admit anything, but seriously... Even he did, why do we care at this point?

[1] I was holding NS in low regard anyway. Now it's as low as it gets in my eyes.

bachback 11 days ago 2 replies      
Can this be real? a guy calls the cops, but admits he was involved?

"Tacitly acknowledging his role in the Bitcoin project, he looks down, staring at the pavement and categorically refuses to answer questions."

"I am no longer involved in that and I cannot discuss it," he says, dismissing all further queries with a swat of his left hand. "It's been turned over to other people. They are in charge of it now. I no longer have any connection."

bambax 11 days ago 1 reply      
> There are several Satoshi Nakamotos living in North America and beyond - both dead and alive

I too would like to be living in North America when I'm dead.

markbao 11 days ago 1 reply      
Honest question: it seems like Nakamoto wanted to keep his identity secret. If that's true, then why did he reveal so much information (by implying that he was part of Bitcoin) and allow a photo of him to be taken, instead of saying "I have no relation to Bitcoin"? It doesn't add up.
bachback 11 days ago 1 reply      
worst reporting I've seen. it implies this person has admitted working on bitcoin. actually that's not even true, if you read the words.

why on earth all this work, just to chose a real name? this does not make any sense. as if SN could not haven chosen a name to deflect his identity.

stefanve 11 days ago 2 replies      
So Newsweek hires paparazzo's now? The need to disclose everything about the guy and call several family members etc is really wrong. Which I could undo my click...., no need to invade his privacy so much, "fun to know because interesting" is not a good enough reason to write the article...
lucb1e 11 days ago 0 replies      
> "He was the kind of person who, if you made an honest mistake, he might call you an idiot and never speak to you again," Andresen says. "Back then, it was not clear that creating Bitcoin might be a legal thing to do. He went to great lengths to protect his anonymity."

Except that he used his full, real name. That is what seems so odd to me.

If it really is him though, I'm very much afraid this article just destroyed his life...

tomasien 11 days ago 1 reply      
A lot of people are calling this "doxxing" which it isn't - identifying someone based on their ACTUAL NAME and profession isn't doxxing. It may be horrible, irresponsible, dangerous, I don't know - still forming an opinion about that, but that's not doxxing as I know it or see it defined anywhere.
olalonde 11 days ago 1 reply      
Meta: this submission has 811 point and was posted only 5 hours, yet it is at #11 position. Is this the regular HN algorithm at work or is it weighted down due to its controversial nature? (I'm not trying to imply there is any conspiracy... I actually remember reading that submissions with a high vote to comment ratio are weighted down but I'm not completely sure)
mcphilip 11 days ago 2 replies      
Apparently the author of this newsweek piece will be on CNBC sometime this morning:


potatoman2 11 days ago 2 replies      
"This man is Satoshi Nakamoto."

"What?" The police officer balks. "This is the guy who created Bitcoin? It looks like he's living a pretty humble life."

- I do not believe this exchange took place. The police would've had his name from his initial call to them, and a random officer from the Sheriff's department would not likely recognize that name as the creator of Bitcoin. Just saying.

nmeofthestate 11 days ago 0 replies      
I'm wondering how many of the commenters that are equating holding BTC with a death sentence by violent criminals would consider themselves pro-BTC.
continuations 11 days ago 2 replies      
Does the concept of privacy mean anything to Newsweek?
act9 11 days ago 0 replies      
Gavin Andresen: "I'm disappointed Newsweek decided to dox the Nakamoto family, and regret talking to Leah."


4dl0v3-p34c3 11 days ago 1 reply      
Isn't this entire article illegal?



Whatever. Satoshi-san can sue if he likes. The damage done in the article alone is devastating for even persecution charges.

fiatpandas 11 days ago 0 replies      
Completely irresponsible to put a picture of his house in the article. I mean, she didn't even blur out his house number. It took me a single google search to find his full address with that number (matching street view).

It's been taken out of the article now, but the damage has been done.

yoha 11 days ago 0 replies      
Breaking history navigation + mandatory cookies

The Wikipedia article saved me some time getting to the point:

> Though Nakamato's identity was a source of speculation since the launch of Bitcoin in 2008, an article in the news magazine Newsweek by Leah McGrath Goodman, published March 6, 2014, made the case that his true identity was Dorian Prentice Satoshi Nakamoto (born 1949), a Japanese American man living in California.[8]

jmnicolas 11 days ago 0 replies      
From the article :

"He is the only person I have ever known to show up for a job interview and tell the interviewer he's an idiot - and then prove it."


pistle 11 days ago 0 replies      
Doxxing the guy is not nice.

With this out of the way, maybe cryptocurrency can focus attention on leveling up protocols and systems to improve utility. When bitcoin becomes the Friendster of cryptocurrency, Satoshi won't matter, just the disruptive ideas around our proxies for value and the new tools and power that can be used in positive ways to help improve the lot for all humans.

People want the confidence that they are able to securely accrue and employ the value of their efforts and wisdom to improve their standard of living. The values of the mainstream of humanity will determine the fate of this stuff. The current level of technical acumen required to handle and secure most any crypto$ is too high for them right now.

It's time to level up.

hiroaki 11 days ago 0 replies      
References to Dorian Nakamoto on the web:

Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/ATILATX3PEXZ4/ref=cm_cr...

Letter voting for an art rail project (search for "nakamoto"):http://media.metro.net/projects_studies/connector/images/Fin...

Google cache of a recent event where he was at (look for the guy in the yellow baseball cap):http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Awww.m...

alasdair_ 11 days ago 1 reply      
"I obtained Nakamoto's email through a company he buys model trains from."

In Europe, this would be completely illegal. I'd suspect that in the US this at least breaks the privacy policy of whatever site Nakamoto was using.

"Two weeks before our meeting in Temple City, I struck up an email correspondence with Satoshi Nakamoto, mostly discussing his interest in upgrading and modifying model steam trains with computer-aided design technologies. "

I understand that this is sometimes how journalism is "done" but the sneakiness of it all seems pretty low.

sarreph 11 days ago 0 replies      
I'm not up-voting this because Leah Goodman has violated even the most simple of journalistic integrity that should be afforded to such a sensitive topic.

Firstly, she very dubiously breached Nakamoto's trust by attempting to get through to him by talking about his passions. Then, when she didn't get the response she wanted, she posted this article that lists multiple family members' full names, most of Nakamoto's (if this is even the real Nakamoto) personal and employment history, and then has the audacity to post a photo of Nakamoto's house that is close enough to a google street view photo, enabling others to pinpoint his location.

If something bad happens to Nakamoto as a result of the personal information disclosed in this report, it will be a great shame for Newsweek.

grej 11 days ago 1 reply      
I wonder if Leah McGrath Goodman would like photos of her home published and members of her family identified against her will? I wonder if she thought about that, or the man and his family's safety, before choosing to publish this information about him?

Reading the description of the man and recognizing the value he placed on privacy and anonymity, I'm genuinely sad for him. I also fear for his personal safety and that of his family for the reasons others have stated.

Uhhrrr 11 days ago 1 reply      
"Reverse Polish notation" - was this originally Hungarian notation before some layer of "fact checking" ruined it? I have no idea how one would program using RPN.
brunoqc 11 days ago 3 replies      
It's weird that some police officers would know who Satoshi Nakamoto is.
ChuckMcM 11 days ago 1 reply      
Doxing as journalism, kind of surreal. Not sure I get the point though. (I understand why irc enemies do it, but I don't get the journalistic value of 'outing' Satoshi)
emin-gun-sirer 11 days ago 0 replies      
No culture deserves to have its creation myths exposed or destroyed. Ironically, Newsweek's behavior makes a strong case for anonymous communication and payment systems.
easytiger 11 days ago 4 replies      
Can we ban paywalled articles?
glimmung 11 days ago 0 replies      
I hope nothing negative happens to the subject of this piece.

I hope something thoroughly educational happens to the author of this piece.

Cheesy and ill-considered.

r4pha 11 days ago 0 replies      
I thought that bitcoin as a whole would be badly shaken at the second Satoshi touched his coins. What if, now that he allegedly has a face, he could have allegedly legitimate needs to spend his coins on?

* takes off tinfoil hat

gnoway 11 days ago 0 replies      
I would be worried if I was the reporter. If anything happens to Satoshi, I suspect there are a moderate to high number of people who will make this reporter's life miserable as retribution. I'm thinking of all the bs that Krebs has to put up with.

Seriously irresponsible reporting. Not brave, not necessary, not helpful, not interesting, just stupid.

adamzerner 11 days ago 0 replies      
How hasn't anyone guessed that the math wiz named Satoshi Nakamoto is indeed Satoshi Nakamoto of Bitcoin?

Also, being that he's so secretive, why on earth would he use his real name?

dharma1 11 days ago 1 reply      
For a professional journalist to sink to such a level - with zero consideration for others in order to advance their own career - never ceases to amaze me.
mikeg8 11 days ago 1 reply      
If you want to email the Newsweek editor and let them know your disapproval, the address is letters@newsweek.com.
hnha 11 days ago 1 reply      
There would be an easy way to protect his well-being: Crash Bitcoin so that it is worthless.
michaelbuddy 11 days ago 1 reply      
that is the most genius newsweek cover image. I'm stunned by how smart it was to create that artwork.
liopleurodon 11 days ago 2 replies      
"The punctuation in the proposal is also consistent with how Dorian S. Nakamoto writes, with double spaces after periods and other format quirks."

wtf!! That's how you're supposed to write!!

mathattack 11 days ago 0 replies      
If Nakamoto ever sells his Bitcoin fortune, he would likely have to do so at a legitimate Bitcoin bank or exchange, which would not only give away his identity but alert everyone from the IRS to the FBI of his movements.

I think they just did that.

Amazing that he actually used his real name. This tells me that he didn't realize how far it would go when he started it.

treebridge 11 days ago 0 replies      
Goodman writes: "Two weeks before our meeting in Temple City, I struck up an email correspondence with Satoshi Nakamoto, mostly discussing his interest in upgrading and modifying model steam trains with computer-aided design technologies. I obtained Nakamoto's email through a company he buys model trains from." This is so sneaky and sad.
basseq 11 days ago 0 replies      
Is anyone else surprised that that police know that Satoshi is the creator of Bitcoin? That seems like an esoteric piece of knowledge for someone not in the tech space.
72deluxe 11 days ago 0 replies      
The article appears to have many "from then on he stopped responding to emails" and "he then dropped off the map" phrases in it. He might not be replying to emails?

The article is cleverly written to make these perfectly ordinary (in)actions sound suspicious. People could write the same about me if I didn't reply to emails or phone calls for a while.

rl12345 11 days ago 0 replies      
On the bright side: if keeping his anonymity was Satoshi's main reason for not touching his BTC fortune, now he and his family will finally be able to use all that money and take benefit from it - well deservedly.
gexla 11 days ago 0 replies      
Now that the article outed him, maybe he will spend some of his Bitcoin on a fortress, security and drones (coded himself of course) to patrol his house.
donutdan4114 11 days ago 1 reply      
That page took about 20s to fully load. Over 300 requests... wtf...
wil421 11 days ago 1 reply      
I feel sorry for this guy. The reign of hell newsweek is about to put on him is not going to be fun. Especially since this guy is pretty ecentric and doesnt like being in the public eye.

My hopes are no one tries to rob this guy or kidnap his family to get to his supposed 400m.

Myrmornis 11 days ago 3 replies      
Well it's too late to get any points for this inference now, but I'm going to claim that there was a strong clue that the author of the PDF was old: the bitcoin paper cites "An Introduction to Probability Theory and Its Applications" by William Feller. This is a classic, from the 1960s, but I don't think it's very well known among people under 40 (correct me if I'm wrong).
lcasela 11 days ago 0 replies      
This is a really irresponsible article. Imagine what this guy is going to have to live with for the rest of his life.
robocaptain 11 days ago 0 replies      
I'm confused, I am seeing all these comments about how it was wrong to out him and then a lot of stuff about governments and stuff.

But isn't it just crazy that they actually found him? I thought that was a big deal? Last I checked, lots of people doubted he was even a real person.

vezzy-fnord 11 days ago 1 reply      
Very few people here seem to be discussing the fact that the article offers little real evidence that this is the Satoshi Nakamoto of Bitcoin, and that most likely they just set up an eccentric old man with an unfortunate name collision to end up getting mobbed by the public.
deanclatworthy 11 days ago 0 replies      
So this guy was found using public records as it's his real name or used to be? I would suspect that the authorities therefore would have known about him for far longer than Newsweek.
thekevan 11 days ago 0 replies      
This may not add to the discussion but I still cannot help my self and have to comment that this doxxing is disgusting and irresponsible.
2810 11 days ago 0 replies      
This is the best "He is the only person I have ever known to show up for a job interview and tell the interviewer he's an idiot - and then prove it."
confluence 11 days ago 5 replies      
There's one thing that doesn't add up: why would such a privacy conscious man use his real name on a project he thought might be illegal? If he was so serious about his privacy, he would not have used his real name in public.
ropman76 11 days ago 0 replies      
The biases of this article aside, he sounds like a very interesting man. It saddens me that the way we found out who he really is was by a very gross invasion of his privacy. A sit down interview (in person or virtually)would have been much more interesting. I would have liked to have known eventually, but not like this
cryowaffle 11 days ago 1 reply      
The article doesn't have the picture of his house anymore
wnevets 11 days ago 0 replies      
bitcoin fanboys are funny.
socialist_coder 11 days ago 1 reply      
0% this is actually the real Satoshi Nakamoto.
ParadisoShlee 11 days ago 0 replies      
This is a pretty predatory article.
davesque 11 days ago 0 replies      
Poor guy. I hope he's going to be alright.
raymondduke 11 days ago 0 replies      
Finally, the face of this super villain in his evil lair.
knodi 11 days ago 0 replies      
Why did the author out him.
sizzle 11 days ago 0 replies      
lives in SoCal and a Cal Poly alumni, respect!
otikik 11 days ago 0 replies      
verroq 11 days ago 6 replies      
HN can't decry censorship and keep flagging this article because it includes Satoshi's dox.
shawabawa3 11 days ago 1 reply      
Not sure why this keeps getting deleted.

Newsweek have already made it public, no point trying to protect his identity now

grondilu 11 days ago 0 replies      
I knew it was his real name. I'm pretty sure I called it on bitcointalk.org (I'm grondilu there) and I was pretty much the only one who thought it was his real name.
dionyziz 11 days ago 0 replies      
maxk42 11 days ago 1 reply      
You just killed a man you dumb shit.
Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit techcrunch.com
1090 points by dkasper  1 day ago   1030 comments top 120
sgentle 1 day ago 15 replies      
Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub.

I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation!

The article reads like an HR air crash investigation. Nebulous semi-employee with unspecified responsibilities related to a founder? Check. Unclear or absent grievance chain? Check. HR alternately over- and under-involved in disputes with no clear policy? Check. Off-the-record disciplinary meetings? Check. Founder adjudicates his own grievances? Check.

And it seems like every single one of these problems could have been solved by a halfway competent manager. I mean, someone reverting your code because of a personal vendetta? Is that not like, a 5 minute conversation? "Hey, Jo, Dave's being an asshole and reverting my commits for no reason." "Oh, okay, I'll talk to him and make sure it stops."

I read a great article a while back that I unfortunately can't find now, but it talked about a CEO who thought he was having a casual "hey, I'm interested in developing my skills, can you mentor me a bit?" conversation with another exec. A week later the office was ablaze with "so-and-so being groomed as successor" rumours. At a certain point you stop being able to just act like a regular person and have everything turn out fine. Red tape isn't always a straitjacket. Sometimes it's a crash harness.

yeukhon 1 day ago 14 replies      
There seems to be several problems. Not entirely sexism.

1. Founder's wife asked Horvath out and gave her a lecture about who is the boss. Probably out of jealousy.

2. Founder's wife physically inanimate Horvath, making her unwelcome and scared.

3. Founder did not stop the wife and protect his wife.

4. Horvath was approached by a male co-worker and according to her her rejection had caused tension between her and that co-worker.

5. Horvath's partner is also a Github employee.

6. Another founder tried to step in but the situation didn't really resolve.

7. Horvath felt male co-workers gawking/staring/looking at female co-workers hula-hooping while sitting in a couch looked like someone visiting a strip club.

This is more like a failed company management than sexism at work.

A partner can help his or her partner looking after/helping/running a company even as a non-employee. He or she could send employees your homemade cookie or send them birthday card. It's okay to share thoughts with partner how to run a company, how to resolve people-people problem.

But the founder should not let his or her partner to intimate anyone: HR, executives, managers, engineers. This type of behavior, I thought I would only see them in drama (well I guess you can say something about WhiteHouse...)

The founder accused Horvath for bringing love affair into the company because she was/is dating an employee. The founder has a good point: try to avoid dating someone working with you. It's a beautiful story; but you can cause all sorts of mess. See this childish engineer who was rejected by Horvath became angry at her and started ripping her code out. I have read about Github's open culture, but hey, how could anyone do that!? And yet no one seen to care internally at all because he's a popular figure in the company. Well, I can't say everyone in that company is shit because there is also a rank in any organization. I wouldn't go against someone senior or more popular unless I have to. This is also a bystander problem: unless we have to deal with it, let other people and the people in the story deal with the situation.

While the founder is right about avoiding dating someone in your own company, he couldn't see that his wife (effectively meaning his own family problem) was also leaking into the company's daily operation.

The other founder tried to help Horvath. The founder apologized and tried to restrain his wife from sitting across Horvath. But the wife continued to "spy" on her. She was welcomed to do whatever she want to do. Horvath tried to ask other executives to help for the very last time and none worked out. Either the founder was scared of his wife (love her so much he didn't want to yell at her) or none of the executives really care. Someone with management skill should have step in and tell the founder "stop letting your wife to come in!"

Apparently, people fear the founder? and the wife??

Regarding the strip-club comment, I don't know the best way to avoid it. I, as a male, try to avoid staring at another female because I fear someone like Horvath accuses me of sexism. Maybe the guy was just bored or thought that female worker was beautiful. Staring at someone shouldn't be counted as sexism. It's hard. Would a female staring at a beautiful male count as sexism?

I am not saying there is no sexism in work place, but I think Horvath's overall sexist experience might have been influenced/augmented based on her treatment in the company (no one stop the founder and his wife abusing power).

But hey, I am just reading off the article. Her experience could be worse! I do feel bad for all the intimations she had to go through. I felt really bad as I was reading the article.

Final point:

Horvath then told her partner, also a GitHub employee, about what was happening. She warned him against being close to the founder and his wife, and asked him not to relay information to them.

I have a mixed feeling. If I were in his situation, I would try to sort out the problem with the founder myself. But now that I read about it, I guess in the future, if I were in a similar situation, I would not talk it out until situation gets worse.

harshreality 1 day ago 5 replies      
The article quotes JAH's email as saying, "Two women, one of whom I work with and adore, and a friend of hers were hula hooping to some music. I didnt have a problem with this. What I did have a problem with is the line of men sitting on one bench facing the hoopers and gawking at them. It looked like something out of a strip club. When I brought this up to male coworkers, they didnt see a problem with it. But for me it felt unsafe and to be honest, really embarrassing. That was the moment I decided to finally leave GitHub."

Certain people are extremely sensitive to what they perceive as improper or demeaning interaction, even when it doesn't directly involve them. JAH wasn't willing to let those women deal with it themselves, and doesn't mention even talking to them about it to see if they felt objectified. Instead, she talked to male coworkers, not specifically HR or a founder, about the wisdom of allowing women to hula hoop in the office? What's that going to accomplish?

I understand her view that sexual undercurrents in an office makes things uncomfortable for some women, and I understand her wanting that toned down. But other women (including some feminists) have no problem with much stronger displays of sexuality, and feel it's an affront to women to suppress that. Both sides can't win.

dylanrw 1 day ago 2 replies      
Based on this article I see a few things, and some alarming ones that make me question the source. Also, hopefully to prevent me from sounding like too much of an ass, I'll use the following as the definition of sexism: "Sexism or gender discrimination is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender."

- The wife situation: Awkward/horrible. Either the wife is crazy with jealousy issues or we're missing a portion of the story. Presuming this is the entirety of the facts, I think it's plain that the woman isn't going around approaching male colleagues of the founder and harassing them. So I guess she's acting this way due to the JAH's sex, but it just sounds like a boundary issue to me rather than rote sexism. I'm surprised policy doesn't exist to prevent this sort of thing inside GH.

- Rebuffed advances being handled poorly. I'm surprised that she's surprised by this, she's dating a coworker, she's introduced the concept of coworkers being viable dating options. Yes I'm sure she was approached because she's female, heterosexual males will do this. Male or female. Of course the person was disrespectful for approaching even if she was in a relationship, people will be clueless/rude, whether they work with you or not. The passive aggressive reverts, and the lack of power to abate them sounds like a lack of leverage on her part, and while she may chalk the entire thing up to her lack of pull due to being female, I see this as a symptom of the cabal syndrome you often see in self managed companies.

- I think it's obvious that she's sensitive to sexist issues, even on the side of seeing it in places where it may not exist. There are even a few cases where she could even be exhibiting the behavior herself ie: Not talking to the hula-hoopers themselves (why are not capable of defending themselves?), claiming the men present were gawking (but not mentioning any other spectators), "always looking to meet women I can look up to." (I'd be seen as an ass by many if I looked for "men to look up to"), "confused and insulted to think that a woman who was not employed by my company was pulling the strings" what does the fact that she's a woman have to do with it? (This is a stretch I know but every time someone is mentioned their sex is brought up, why?)

- The real major theme I see is, "I was treated poorly." Yes this happens, just not always to a highly public, touchy social subject-matter expert in this field, who then releases the story to the press (vendetta much?).

It's a shame that theres dirt in the garden of Github, shockingly it's a real company run by real people. I'd carry on with making great software; always try and make sure I'm not putting up barriers (intentional or otherwise) to the entry of the just as capable minorities in this field; always strive to see the difference between true injustice and someone's poor decisions, their sensitivities, and a really messed up corporate experience.

csense 1 day ago 8 replies      
I don't think this was an instance of institutionalized sexism. Rather, the founder's wife seems like an unbalanced individual, and nobody effectively set any boundaries. The other founders and HR seemed unaware or unable to set the situation to right.

As for her romantically inclined co-worker -- I don't see how his behavior qualifies as sexist or hostile. Merely a bit clueless, but isn't it to be expected that employees of a tech company will be somewhat socially awkward?

EDIT: As multiple commenters have noted, ripping out someone's code commits because they rejected your romantic advances is unacceptable and unprofessional. The ripper-outer should be roasted by the project manager if there's no technical justification. Since the two employees no longer get along, one or both should be re-assigned to different projects if possible. And the offender should be disciplined (up to and including dismissal from the company) if he makes life difficult for her in the future. But his actions reflect on him, not Github as a whole. The article includes no information about whether any of his actions were reported to his supervisor or anyone else, and no information about Github's response to the incident. Without those crucial details, I think it's premature to point a finger at Github.

As for the hula hoop incident -- if the girls doing the hooping and the guys doing the watching were okay with it, and everybody kept their clothes on, that seems pretty innocent to me.

theorique 1 day ago 6 replies      
The bad actor in this version of the story seems to be the founder's wife. And the founder certainly dropped the ball by not keeping his wife in line.

For whatever reason, the wife acted crazy, intimidating, and creepy toward Horvath. Why? Who knows? Maybe because of jealousy or concern that her husband was interested in this (admittedly reasonably attractive) female employee?

The founder needed to do the professional thing and keep his wife in check, separating business and personal affairs, and not allowing this weird behavior to continue. He needed to act like a leader, taking charge in both his workplace and his home when it looked like things were getting out of hand.

And the romantically inclined co-worker is guilty of two things: (1) slightly clueless behavior toward a person who was already involved in a relationship with someone else (2) extremely bad timing. He's not the worst offender in this whole drama. (Edit: I forgot (3) taking revenge by reverting code commits. That is far worse than (1) or (2) - it is unprofessional behavior and calls for some form of workplace discipline.)

(Disclaimer: everything I wrote assumes that the article is telling the complete truth)

enneff 1 day ago 4 replies      
If you are one of the people in this thread jumping to defend GitHub in this situation, ask yourself why.

GitHub are perfectly capable of defending themselves. They are the group in power here. Second-guessing the motives and truth of this woman's story does nothing but undermine her, and undermine the confidence of others who may have similar stories (at GitHub or elsewhere).

shiven 1 day ago 2 replies      
Can someone please explain to me why-the-f was a non-employee granted full and free access to other company employees, each and every day, on company premises, without mutual consent?

What were the other co-founders thinking? This was a darn time-bomb waiting to explode. Just because you are a fancy-pants, hotshot startup and not a bigco, does not mean the same laws and liabilities don't apply to you.

Founders, all that blood, sweat and tears will go down the drain if you ignore the stodgy, boring, beuraucratic 'nonsense' that was designed to protect humans from other humans, as soon as you have more than one human in your beloved startup.

Humans will be humans, sooner or later; so you need to cover the proverbial mattress in waterproof covering, for there will be piss, eventually.

Aqueous 1 day ago 6 replies      
I'm not entirely sure the hula-hooping incident - merely observing girls hula hooping is not a crime, is it? - by itself constitutes a hostile atmosphere for women, unless inappropriate comments were being made.

What we have here is some completely inappropriate, cloak and dagger, soap opera shit being perpetrated by the wife of the cofounder, who has no business meddling in the affairs of his employees. (If true, this is completely bizarre behavior.) But I'm not entirely sure this hostility was directed at her simply because she was a woman.

She is absolutely justified in getting the fuck out of dodge, either way.

droopyEyelids 1 day ago 1 reply      
Earlier I thought I wanted to know more about the situation. That was wrong.
rdl 1 day ago 8 replies      
This sounds less like sexism and more just non-sexist batshit crazy people and incompetent HR. Somehow that isn't particularly better.
lgleason 1 day ago 4 replies      
I'm not going to get into what is right or wrong.

With that being said, in the US HR is not your friend as an employee. Their job is to protect the company. http://abcnews.go.com/Business/20-job-tips-hr-exec/story?id=...

Any way you look at it you have a bad situation. This sounds like a clash of personalities. While the behavior is not right, the fact is that a lot of companies will 'manage out' people unfairly etc.. Politics and personality clashes are never fair. In a capitalistic society money tends to trump social justice. It sucks, but it would take some pretty large structural changes to the economy to really fix that.

If the founders wife is causing issues with other employees then that could be an issue. The question is would this cause enough of a legal liability for the company to do something? Will edging out the founder be beneficial to the company, the investors and the profit of the company or not? Be it right or wrong, that is the question that is going to be asked in the board room if that option is even on the table with Github.

While I like to see justice and fairness in these situations something tells me that it is probably not likely to happen any time soon. Similar scenarios to this have been playing out in many different industries and many different countries for years.....and unfortunately will continue to.

gojomo 1 day ago 3 replies      
While the 'wife' aspect has drawn a lot of attention, it seems that through her marriage she may essentially have a founder's level of equity in the company. I don't know the personalities involved, but she might also have relevant professional experience, and/or have been genuinely helpful in handling thorny issues in the past (even if this case clearly escalated into many kinds of mutual suspicion and recriminations).

So it seems you could replace 'wife' in the retelling with 'early investor and advisor', and be equally accurate, but without the extra (gender-loaded) implication of improper influence being exercised by some meddling consort.

curiousDog 1 day ago 1 reply      
To me, it seems like this sort of problem occurs more in start-ups because the boundaries between professional and personal lives are blurred.

I've heard similar stories from people working at Facebook as well. This sort of forced camaraderie to fit into the clique isn't healthy at all. When I worked at Microsoft, we had quite a few talented female engineers on our team. I don't think at any point their gender was brought into question or discussion. We'd just solve problems, write code and have the occasional team lunch where we'd talk about the latest software paradigms, competition etc and go home.

Eliezer 1 day ago 1 reply      
Ooh! The media! We're supposed to blindly trust their reporting even though they get wrong everything we know about personally, right?

Clarification from Julie Ann Horvath describing everything TechCrunch misrepresented in 3... 2... 1...

(The real situation may be better or worse. TechCrunch may have left out info that helps or damns GitHub. But you're naive if you think a journalist would report on a story like this accurately.)

bitops 1 day ago 10 replies      
As usual, another HN thread that perfectly exemplifies victim blaming and a collective burying of heads in the sand. There's a few people on here who seem to get it, but most don't. I'm sick of it. Goodbye, Hacker News.
amix 1 day ago 1 reply      
Allegation that a wife of a founder can read private chats at GitHub makes me question GitHub's privacy and security... I would love if we would have a statement of GitHub on this matter since it would be a huge privacy breach (and something that would make us move all of our private repos outside of GitHub). (posted this as a comment on the article as well)
ryan-allen 1 day ago 0 replies      
The wife sounds batshit crazy, but this behaviour is unfortunately pretty normal for some people who feel like they're in some kind of position of power.

She asks a reasonably prolific female developer out to drinks and power trips all over her. It's just disgusting bigoted behaviour, and it happens with males just as often.

I hope that whoever's founders' wife gets smacked in to line here to stay out of company affairs. But in the end, when companies are privately owned, the owners have a certain immunity to this kind of bullshit and get away with it.

The probable outcome is that the wife will get a slap on the wrist while receiving crap-tonnes of likely dividends, which I'm sure will make her feel much better and well vindicated.

mwhite 1 day ago 5 replies      
Well, there are only three Github founders, and a quick search seems to indicate that Tom Preston-Werner is the only one with a wife, Theresa: http://techcrunch.com/2013/11/27/omakase-charity-tech-indust...
iamwil 1 day ago 3 replies      
Does it seem like it's not the whole story? It seems like there's a piece of the story missing from before the wife's chat over beers.

It doesn't seem like the wife of a boss would ask a specific employee to one-on-one beers, unless she had a specific topic in mind. And boasting about pulling strings at Github seems like an unlikely purpose.

To me, it sounds like something happened that was unmentioned. And the wife was asked to talk to her, in order to help settle the aftermath, and make sure she was happy there. (I'm not sure why the wife was deployed instead of HR) Seen another way, it sounds like the wife was trying to help make her happy at work, and not trying to boast.

However, something went awry at the chat, and they seemed to end up not liking each other.

Anyone else feel like the whole story's not being told here?

belorn 1 day ago 1 reply      
A founders wife felt that a female employee puts the company at risk, so she try to control the employee to avoid harm to the company. This then turned into bullying, stalking, and unhealthy work environment.

This is why affirmative action and other "let treat women specially" crap is bad. It makes for a self-fulfilling prophesy of more sexism. The more we focus on "balancing the scales" rather than eliminating special treatment of women, the faster we can reach a place where everyone is treated the same regardless of gender.

The rest of the story is not about sexism. The guy who got rejected is the prime example why some companies (and government, and armies) have anti-fraternization policies. The positive and negative aspects of office romances are old, well established and equal by both genders. At best, it is gender equal sexism.

The dancing event however sound purely made up in her mind. As a species, we a interested in what others are interested in, and when people laugh or is having fun, it attracts attention. It has nothing to do with sexism.

jmspring 1 day ago 2 replies      
If allegations of non-employee/founder wife scenario is true, I would hope the board shows said founder the door. Beyond being in bad taste, it's exposing the company to some serious liabilities...
discardorama 1 day ago 2 replies      
I'm curious about the "hula hoop" issue that Julie is referring to. As a male nerd, I will admit that my social skills are a bit lacking. However: I don't see the problem with staring at women who are putting on a show which is clearly unrelated to their work.

If 2 women started making out in the break room, I'm ashamed to say that I might just linger longer than usual.

spikels 1 day ago 1 reply      
Well that was disappointing. I was expecting more sexism and less crazy founder wife.
patrickg_zill 1 day ago 5 replies      
Some geeky types will be tempted, upon founding a startup, to thus not have ANY women in significant roles in the company, and to keep it as guys-only as possible; outsourcing as needed and doing the other legal legwork as required to stay under the headcount (is it >50 people?) to avoid the EEOC.
mynameisasdf 1 day ago 7 replies      
I can't believe that no one has spotted that she is exactly the same annoying feminist that forced the company to get rid of a rug because it used the term "meritocracy".http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug#awesm...Tbfh, she sounds like Adria Richards v2.0
asimov42 1 day ago 2 replies      
That hula hoops bit was a bit... strange. If it were a couple of attractive girls I probably would also find myself staring. I mean, its just not something you see everyday working at an office. I understand being stared at is uncomfortable too, and they should feel free to do whatever they want of course. It just sounds like how unattractive people "stare creepily" while attractive people "look."
watwut 1 day ago 1 reply      
The story is confirming my long held prejudice/bias. If a company/organization organizes women only activities, then there is something profoundly wrong in their relationship towards women.
programminggeek 1 day ago 0 replies      
I would just like to say that this is not a "women in tech" problem. It's basically that the same dynamics that exist in high school often exist in business, especially small businesses. Replace the location: github with the high school cafeteria and it sounds like not unexpected behavior.

I'm not exactly sure why women in tech think this is about being a woman or being in tech or working at a tech company. The same behavior exists in non tech companies and you can have equally screwed up relationships with coworkers and their spouses as a man.

These problems are basic problems with people interacting with other people.

Myrmornis 1 day ago 0 replies      
Two women [...] were hula hooping to some music. [...] What I did have a problem with is the line of men sitting on one bench facing the hoopers and gawking at them. It looked like something out of a strip club. When I brought this up to male coworkers, they didnt see a problem with it.

I don't see a problem with it. One does not "hula hoop" in a place of work if one does not want to be looked at.

eruditely 1 day ago 0 replies      
This just sounds like plain old drama of the old fashioned sort, and not especially one that relies on sexism, but crazy people.

The difference being that sexism would be something ordinary citizens do naturally that is intolerable and is putting up with a discriminatory past or status quo and they are not being cognizant of what they are doing. This is just straight drama.

So far at least.

xrctl 1 day ago 1 reply      
The problem with the founder's wife sounds like a very one sided account of your standard interpersonal conflict. Everyone who has ever been in one of those has at some point claimed themselves to be a saint and their opponent a demon.

The alleged sexism seems to be primarily imaginary.

The anonymous posting that so upset her and precipitated all of this said:

> has a history of RAGINING against any professional criticism. Leadership has stood idly by while she lied about contributions and threw hardworking coworkers under the bus (again and again)[1]

To be honest, it seems to me that such could very well be true.

[1] https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/444646082857820160/phot...

trustfundbaby 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is just really really messy and could have all could have been handled differently.

Also, not so much sexism here as drama, a lot of which, it seemed, Ms Horvath herself participated in :\

iancarroll 1 day ago 6 replies      
Until there's a second side to this my GitHub use is not going to continue. Sad to see this happen, but it's not hard to change origins on my repos to BitBucket or Gitlab.

edit: and again, it's two commands to push my repo back. but i have no interest in being with github at this time

lindig 1 day ago 6 replies      
Two women are dancing to music at work in a tech company and the author compares this to a scene at a strip club as men are watching this. Unless this was a regular exercise, what was everybody expecting? Nobody taking notice?
anthonyshort 1 day ago 1 reply      
Probably worth mentioning that the hula hoop dancing happened at a Github party with a lot of people not from Github. It was also super badass hula hooping, not just regular dancing. Everyone was looking, men and women, because it was pretty awesome.
lancewiggs 1 day ago 2 replies      
What should Github do?

My take:The founder leaves, at least for six months, and his wife has no further involvement ever.The clueless spurned programmer leaves, at very least works from home for six months or more but is preferably publicly fired. His behaviour is unacceptably unprofessional and as good as he might be it's not good enough to destroy a culture.The entire team (and many commenters here need this too) get coached on why its rude to stare at people, even if they are hula hooping or different.And of course a public apology (and hurry), financial support for an appropriate cause and make Ms Horvath financially happy.

It will be interesting to see the actual response. The immediate one should be to stand all the protagonists down.

jroseattle 1 day ago 0 replies      
The impression this story leaves me with:

- Github leadership is run by adolescents who behave as one might in high school situations.

- Good luck to whomever says they worked in Github HR at this point in time. Your professional embarrassment is about to go off the charts.

- Andreessen Horowitz gave these guys US $100MM. Yes, it reflects upon them too.

But...I'd like to hear the other side of the story. As a manager for years, I've seen situations like this before (although not this sensational.) While the sexism word has been thrown out here, it's never anything as simple as gender. There are team dynamics at work, and those dynamics matter in context.

barce 1 day ago 1 reply      
The law is very clear on discriminating against someone by virtue of race, gender and/or age in a work situation.

A lawyer could make a very good case just based on her side of the story for the law being broken.

Against the coder who undid her work because he was rejected by a woman, that is classic retaliation pure and simple. Most cases like this that don't go to court settle in the Valley for $250k. It's a million at a minimum in the Valley if it does go to court.

As far as the wife goes, there was so much innuendo in the article that I wasn't sure what to conclude. Was the wife suggesting she hook up with her husband because a happy husband would make the former employee's situation better? If so, another classic open and shut case.

xacaxulu 1 day ago 1 reply      
It's a shame that crying sexism is beginning to take on the trappings of Salem Witch Trials. Simply implying that what happened was the result of sexism seems to be enough proof that sexism was the cause. This is a nuanced case that probably has much more to do with managerial mistakes. The sexism angle in this story seems very forced and sort of used as a last minute boost to an otherwise boring story of bad management.
einhverfr 1 day ago 1 reply      
Hmmm..... I read this slowly and I see intimidation, but it is a little short on evidence of sexism. The evidence was a perception of sexism, but very little evidence of it. How much of that was in her mind vs in actual interactions with others (unless aggressive communication regarding pull requests applied evenly to both genders is inherently sexist).

What I do see is something else though. I see a nebulous, bossless organization where the founder's wife is effectively running the political show. Call me old fashioned but that seems totally at odds with allegations of sexism.

Reading between the lines I see something else going on. "I thought I could fix X" (where X is either an organization or a person) is something that never ends well.

I hate to say this but the article did not make me sympathetic to Horvath. I have seen even in myself the tendency to try to fix an organization which was working (just in ways I didn't understand) and causing issues in the process.

jackowayed 1 day ago 2 replies      
This guy may need therapy. That's not her problem.

It's terrible that anyone should experience what he put her through. (Regardless of the founder's wife stuff, he produced an exceptionally hostile work environment by actively undoing her work, plus likely made her fear for her safety when he did not immediately respect her requests to leave after professing his love.) It's problematic that women in tech are much more likely to experience this than men (because of gender ratios and men tending to be more forward), and that the power dynamics and implicit threat of violence will also tend to be worse when women are the recipients of the attention.

Given this, having your first response be to ask her to be empathetic is ridiculous. Do we ask the victims of shootings to empathize with the perpetrators who had mental illness, had absentee parents, grew up poor, etc? Sometimes these issues come up in the wake of tragedies, and they are an important part of understanding the problem.

But the victim is the absolute last person to ask the be empathetic. She has an unquestionable right to feel personally safe and to do her work without others hostilely inhibiting her. When someone infringes on that, she's already being unfairly burdened. It's completely unfair to further burden her with an imperative to be understanding of what lead him to be the kind of person that would do that, rather than take every measure to remedy the situation, and to call out GitHub for failing to adequately do so.

Yes, it would be great if everyone empathized with those who wrong them. But until it becomes commonplace for people to show understanding toward people who mug them on the street because anyone willing to risk their safety and freedom for a few hundred dollars has likely hard a very hard life rather than reporting it to the police and seeking their imprisonment, let's focus on big, clear concerns: What he did to her was completely unacceptable, and if GitHub failed to quickly take action to end it and ensure it would not happen again, they deserve to be publicly shamed.

ohsnapman 1 day ago 1 reply      
My gut tells me there was probably sexism at GitHub, drama with founder's wife, AND she was probably not blameless either in this whole mess. It was disheartening to me to see people rally to her on Twitter and immediately cry for the sacking of GitHub before any facts or concrete allegations were made by anyone involved, her especially. That's the stuff angry mobs are made of.
robobro 1 day ago 4 replies      
Hmmm. Here's my 2 cents.

Every office has "that person" who causes/gets involved in drama, starts pointless arguments, or refuses to cooperate. Let's assume, just for entertainment' sake, that she got bored of working there, and asked herself, what looks better on my resume? Worked at GitHub, got bored/wanted a higher salary/wanted to do less work, left... or worked at GitHub and got bullied out of the marketplace for being a woman in tech, but is an honest and good person nonetheless? This is one of the few fields left in tech where men outnumber / outperform women, and I hope that changes, both because I believe in gender equality, and issues like this will be better handled internally (and someone looking to improve her resume can't pull this sort of act). And, well, after she makes these accusations, what are her former coworkers supposed to say? She's kind of poisoned the well, so to speak.

Again, the way I see it, she's either tired of working there and this is her way of finding new work, or there really was an office full of awful bigoted men who all hated her because she was interrupting their boy's club. It'd actually work against her best interests if the latter were true. If she scared women away from working at GitHub and made them even more of a minority, then the few women remaining may be discriminated against further if gender discrimination's really a big issue. The worst case about the former being true (rather than the latter) is that women who actually are unethical, assuming she isn't, may find themselves able to play the gender card and find success in her same fashion. Either way, she getting big publicity for this is a "win" for her and a "lose-lose" for GitHub and the women who work there, unless they get a female-majority PR staff.

How are we supposed to respond to this sort of problem? How are we supposed to assess the validity of this woman's claims? What are we supposed to do about it? This could serve as a good reminder to companies to have their HR's doors open or something, but for all we know she could be lying out of her teeth. From a philosophical (logical/rational/skeptical) perspective, this article is just editorialized, meaningless garbage. It's kind of sad, really... does anyone share my perspective? I'm just sharing because I hate bandwagons, I hate people jumping to blind conclusions, and I hate people burning witches (in this case, GitHub / anyone who defends GitHub, depending on the crowd). What I do know for certain is that GitHub provides a great service and I'll continue to use it until I can be shown that GitHub systematically and indiscriminately works against its female employees' best interests in an objective manner, and that they choose to ignore the problem in the face of overwhelming evidence and social uproar.

As someone involved academically with philosophy, I am from a field also with notable under-representation / under-performance from women, for whatever reason. Maybe as a member of a "boy's club," I'm speaking out of ignorance or delusion. If I am speaking out of turn, I'd love to hear your rational response so I can correct it, and I'm sure anyone who holds a similar view would appreciate hearing what you have to say as well. (Shouting "Victim blamer!" or "Misogynist!" at me is not a rational response. It only makes you look like a fool. Personally, I'm most interested in seeing how enneff, who is definitely not a sockpuppet of the involved woman, replies.)

AgathaTheWitch 1 day ago 1 reply      
I'm not the first to mention it but for me the big issue is the wife having access to private company information. That type of thing really does make me start thinking about Bitbucket (any other good alternatives dudes?).

I don't see a ton of sexism here though. A developer removing her code because she didn't want to date him isn't sexism. It's unprofessional as hell and possibly a fireable offense depending on the circumstances, but it's not about a generalized animosity toward women.

The hula hoop thing too seems dumb. Maybe you had to be there? Were the male developers' tongues out? Were they making obscene comments? Two ladies hula hooping in the middle of an office is likely to attract attention. Are men supposed to immediately duck and cover and avert their eyes? Seems like she's over-reacting.

Still, assuming everything stated in the article is true, it does raise questions about the founders' judgment. I really like Github and this situation certainly is disappointing.

rdtsc 1 day ago 1 reply      
Well here we go Github-gate. Sigh...

Regardless of the truth, just based on allegations, and what they'll stir, this will probably create a big mess.

I can't see who can possibly win in this case.

jongraehl 4 hours ago 0 replies      
Awful intimidation, my sympathies if true. But why is sexism even in the headline? As far as I can tell, 1. a coworker made advances outside work and acted weird/hostile when rejected, and 2. impromptu sexy hula hoop revue. Incidents 1. and 2. did warrant correction. If HR/founder wouldn't help when asked then I guess you could win a hostile work env. claim w/ a sexist flavor.
romanovcode 1 day ago 1 reply      
Can someone explain how does one gets a job after inflicting so much public damage on his previous workplace?
hrktb 1 day ago 0 replies      
There seem to be a lot of "it's not the organization, just some bad apples", but if individuals do shitty things and the organization (HR, the other founders, colleagues) can't do much about it, it's a company culture problem.

The simple fact that a non employee (founder's wife) can boast influence on the decisions, stay at will on the work floor and just gets moved to another floor after proven problematic behavior feels horribly fucked up from an organizational perspective.

And then every other aspects of this story are so shitty, and these happen so much in companies where indivuals wield so much more power that what their job title says.

Of course, it's assuming the fact of the article are true.

waylandsmithers 1 day ago 0 replies      
Wow, what an absolute train wreck. I've only worked for medium and large companies with a borderline fantasy of hacking on a startup at some point. Seeing the dark side of what happens when you rip out the bigco controls that people tend to dislike really makes me think twice though. Sounds like you just wind up with an out of control frat house.
_pmf_ 1 day ago 0 replies      
To me, spreading this out in public is a nice way to tag onself as unemployable / HR-risk.
Nelson69 1 day ago 0 replies      
This sounds terrible, I'm sorry what happened and I'm sorry it's all out in the open like that. While github may have some bad actors, I'm sure there are some decent hard working folks there and in the leadership team there as well.

At risk of sounding like an a-hole, what has she done and why does she have a gigantic twitter following? Just out of curiosity. As with Adria Richards I can't help but think the social media power of the victim and then the public nature of the story has a radical impact. One or both parties is likely to receive some hate from the wild internet and that just doesn't seem useful or good at all.

Not to condone or downplay or silence a victim, she could have just as well hired a lawyer, spoke with HR and followed the same channels that are followed at the IBM's and MS's and other big companies, all of which have had far more torrid things happening. If there is anything I can take away, it is that I'd be very careful with the kinds of social media I allow at my company.

zby 1 day ago 1 reply      
What a mess!

But it looks like sexism was not the number one problem.

chris_wot 1 day ago 0 replies      
The thing I'm most concerned about is that a non-employee has access to private records. Will GitHub confirm that the founders wife didn't have access to information that is restricted?

This sounds awful!

joyeuse6701 1 day ago 0 replies      
Talk about double standards. Get chastised for relationship with co-worker, When other co-worker impedes company growth (reverting commits) out of spite for rejection, they do nothing? Holy crap.

It's hard to imagine this level of social dysfunction. Doesn't help for the reputation of engineers and technology being socially inept.

mattdeboard 1 day ago 0 replies      
Let's not be too quick to make this an indictment of no-management businesses.

Even if you dismiss the hula-hoop stuff, the involvement of the wife, the lack of grievance resolution, & the under-involvement of HR all point to a serious lack of leadership. It doesn't take a management structure to have good leadership at an organization. It takes leaders.

I have seen the "wife wearing the husband's rank" so much in my life. I spent a decade+ in the Marines, it's very common. I extrapolate from that that it's common in the world. The fact this was allowed does point to an environment where HR was either ignorant, complicit or complacent, otherwise they would have stopped this shit cold.

UK-AL 1 day ago 0 replies      
Work culture at lot of startups is toxic regardless of sexism or not.

Very inexperienced manager/founders running a company tends to be the cause, sometimes on powertrips.

Its ok if your in the inner circle, a world of hell if your not.

F30 1 day ago 1 reply      
Wow. Those are some strong allegations for someone who admits they are completely unfounded.
teyc 1 day ago 0 replies      
Everybody should just back off and let Julie chill out before she damages herself further. This is not a general complaint against company culture, but a one that libels a lot of individuals.
pekk 1 day ago 0 replies      
So she and another woman at work develop a bitter feud in which the other woman has the upper hand. Horvath reinterprets it as sexism and takes it to the press to hurt GitHub. If Horvath were a man, there is no way that HN would show this kind of support.
nnq 20 hours ago 0 replies      
I propose to show our sympathy towards the nice people at github by just forgetting this non-story ever existed. Or, it existed, but it was a whole different story, that had nothing to do with sexism and more to do with another woman being in a position of power and maybe using that for a non obvious purpose.

...witch hunts are cool and all, and they are even cooler when they are done "to save"/"for the rights of" women/children/etc., but you're only giving more power to the "troll" that started this in the first place, either her or someone using her, for god knows what agenda (I bet it's just part of power fight inside the company, and somebody tries to redirect some discrimination related anger collected from the interwebs against his/her opponent ...we really shouldn't let ourselves manipulated into joining this fight we know nothing about).

xcrunner529 14 hours ago 0 replies      
I see 2 issues here:

1. HR seems powerless and there seems to be a very immature culture, inapproriate non-employee influence, and communication at Github and given that it is mostly young-males, may have a (perhaps inadvertent) gender bias that they do not see motivated to fix. This is a big problem and I think there can be a balance between not being stuck up and removing the "fun," while also being decent, well-meaning human beings. I admit it's a very hard balance that I think everyone is still trying to figure out in this rebellious stage of the stodgy era.

2. While I believe Julie's basic observations are valid, I agree based solely on her account so far that she was being treated differently and that there were inappropriate behaviors going on, especially with the wife I do get the sense that Julie was considering a lot of normal societal behavior with gender-specific contexts. "Oogling" people isn't good, but it's a fine line. People are going to find each other attractive. And I don't think it's wrong, either. As mentioned here, finding someone attractive doesn't mean you discard everything else about them as a person. These things can work both ways, she just may see it from a different perspective because she's outnumbered. But this supposedly was at a party and so I'd expect looser rules there as it's not in a professional setting. There's a difference between inappropriate and just being human.

All of this is a fine line and is why being human is hard and trying to manage people and create a positive, but also fun work environment is hard and we still have a lot to learn during these experimental phases. The issue really needs to be helping eliminate different treatment based on gender and sexuality rather than creating a specific type of culture. I do not necessarily believe we need to eliminate all sexuality or all fun or all emotions from a particular work environment. There can be different places and different people with different preferences can gravitate between them. I don't think going back to all stodgy, emotionless, and overtly-bureaucratic environments is a good thing.

Like everything in life it seems, there really is a balance.

iwasphone 1 day ago 4 replies      
> Horvath then told her partner, also a GitHub employee...

Protip: don't dip your pen in the company ink.

bello 1 day ago 0 replies      
While I see how she had quite a few valid reasons for leaving, where exactly was the sexism described? Sure, some of those people clearly have issues, but I don't think it's reasonable to generalize that to a "sexist internal culture" of an entire company.

I do feel bad that she had to go through all of that though.

jv22222 1 day ago 0 replies      
Without being there it's hard to discern the full facts from either side and has the potential to be "he said she said" type of situation.
Grue3 1 day ago 1 reply      
Wait, how is the wife of the founder pulling the strings "sexism"? It's the opposite if anything.
Fuxy 17 hours ago 0 replies      
Now that's a lot of drama but it has nothing to do with sexism or any abuse towards women in technology.

For one thing as far as i can tell we're dealing with the wife of a founder that has delusions of grandeur and a founder who is easily manipulated.

The very few allegations of sexism like some employee asking her out and the passive aggressively harassing her will happen in any environment not just in technology it's just the guy not being a man and facing the rejection. All you can say to him is grow up.

I also don't see anything wrong in the guys looking a the girls playing with the hula hoops If the girls minded the wouldn't have done it what right does she have to judge them.

tiler 1 day ago 0 replies      
"I believe in evidence. I believe in observation, measurement, and reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be. --Isaac Asimov
soheil 1 day ago 1 reply      
"The aforementioned wife began a pattern of passive aggressive behavior that included sitting close to Horvath, to, as she told TechCrunch, make a point of intimidating her."

Get a freaking life, go sit somewhere else if you see her sitting close to you. And are you a mind-reader? What if she wasn't being "passive aggressive" and just wanted to sit there! Unbelievable how as soon as a woman is involved in tech industry everything blows out of proportion.

Again no one is winning, when a woman "stands for her rights", because when you stand up for your rights that means you have to be standing up against someone, that is a male or a female. If you're standing up against a female well you're not helping the women cause. If it's a male you make the industry look even worse than it is by portraying men as monster bullies who will do and say anything to destroy a "woman". The argument against men can only win if we keep repeating the same fairytales that we keep hearing from the likes of her.

Geeks building an amazing platform like Github are different than the sexy attractive guys that you see on TV. Their passion lies with technology they are not here to gossip or put anyone down intentionally. We simply have better things to focus on than caring about your petty feelings. We're men building shit! Unless what women see men as changes drastically I don't see how men in positions like this would take women as seriously as other men. And by that I mean you can't think the guy must have a six-pack, not be nerdy, talk to you about your feelings when you're down. This is not reality but this is what women are brainwashed to expect from men in order to even truly respect them as human beings. This is mainly the effects of watching TV and other media, etc.

Change your perspective about your enemy (stop calling men your enemies) and see if there is still such huge gender imbalance in tech.

ww520 1 day ago 0 replies      
God. What an awful situation. WTF is the founder's wife meddling into the company's business? She is not even an employee. Githud is not a mom-and-pop shop. It's an corporation. This is just toxic.
oh_sigh 1 day ago 0 replies      
Is there anything to comment on? the allegations should be looked in to, but right now, it is the word of a single disgruntled employee.
bayesianhorse 17 hours ago 0 replies      
The first reaction to sexism and racism in well-educated male circles seems to be "Well, there has to be SOME rational and objective reason for these opinions, so stop complaining!"

The story certainly contains some element of "female politics" (which is neither good nor bad, just different).

My theory is that these problems come from a lack of empathy, and that the use of technical skills does not improve the empathy skill. In order to effortlessly switch between empathy and technical thinking, some effort is required. For example meditation has been shown to increase empathy and improve social behavior in school classes and executives...

cwaniak 1 day ago 1 reply      

Proof #1: Do I read it correctly that a woman got into fights with another woman -- and that is termed as "sexism" now? Give me a break

Proof @2: how came "sexist" is an organization that is under influence and control of the boss wife? Who doesn't even officially work there!!! Like, really? This is sexism now??? WOW!!! So, again: give me a break with this nonsense!!!

Some old good venting:And finally, is this a forum for morons now who can't see through once they see a PC piece in the news? Because it seems to me so. HN is full of intelligent people but once PC piece is involved they all act like a band of brainless morons mumbling all marxist buzz-words from "equality" to "social justice". Give me a break again. And go back to coding.

tsax 1 day ago 0 replies      
In Pakistan, personal vendettas are sometimes carried out by accusing people of blasphemy, thus deputizing the state apparatus in your service. http://www.fides.org/en/news/32696?idnews=32696&lan=eng#.UyY...

Thus, we now see the use of 'sexism' as simply a masquerade for bad shit that goes on, to deputize the internet hordes to serve your cause.

drawkbox 1 day ago 1 reply      
I think that is one benefit remote offices have is there are less chances for events like this to take place.

Being confined to one space everyday with people for years will lead to dust ups, cultural clashes, personality clashes etc. How they are handled is important, it doesn't appear it was handled correctly here.

High school politics are in effect at every office and I see this as more that than sexism. We live free but the office can turn into a strange authoritarian empire with banana republic like alliances. Growth at companies can also cause cultural clashes and problems similar to this with people getting wronged. Disappointed to hear it also goes on in github.

debacle 14 hours ago 0 replies      
I don't really believe that this can all be true, if only because I find it very unlikely that GitHub screwed up that badly from an HR perspective, especially one involving the founder.

There is probably some measure of truth to it, but for it to be totally true would be a massive failure on GitHub's part.

LeicaLatte 1 day ago 0 replies      
Given her history of leaking company matters and trivia in such a detailed way to a public blog like tech crunch, any company hiring her next is taking a big chance.

The things that seem to have happened in this case happen all the time, everywhere.

chris_mahan 1 day ago 0 replies      
The company just seems to have immature leadership.
scotty79 1 day ago 1 reply      
Awesome piece of office drama. Github is a true corporation now.

It would be good base for a movie script. I wouldn't watch because I don't like seeing people hurt eachother in believable ways.

seth1010 1 day ago 0 replies      
I'm interested in why so many people on that anonymous social network didn't like her so much.

'Made our jobs infinitely harder. Good fucking riddance.'

allochthon 1 day ago 0 replies      
Without saying anything about the question of sexism at Github (which I know nothing about), I get the sense that Horvath is a complex character. It is difficult to know what is fact and what is spin.
bowlofpetunias 1 day ago 0 replies      
I wondered how long it would take for one of these "no management" cults to unravel.

Put people in charge (call them managers or not, whatever), and you may get the wrong people in charge.

Put no one in charge, and the douchebags, manipulators and sociopaths will end up domination the culture.

I prefer box #1, thankyouverymuch. At least those can be easily identified and removed before the whole thing has rotten to the core. And if I was part of a minority in such a company, like women generally are in tech startups, I would avoid #2 like the plague.

Also, this is just begging for a culture were the founders will remain the only authority. And founders are generally not known for being very good at the actual day to day running of a company.

The sexism is a red herring here btw. Could have been any form of bullying and manipulation.

enupten 1 day ago 0 replies      
It's very sad that she had to struggle through this sort of mental anguish. May you find brighter shores, Julie.
joshlegs 1 day ago 0 replies      
I'm so fucking tired of this so-called "more opportunities to succeed" thing i keep hearing about. such a load of crap. you make your own opportunities. Period. That's been true of my life and everyone i know.
dobbsbob 1 day ago 0 replies      
Sounds like github needs a de facto employee grievance officer like a union shop steward who can sit in on HR meetings and advocate for the employee, or mediate petty personal disputes without involving the heavy and often unfair hand of management and go to the founder about issues with his batshit crazy wife.
sizzle 1 day ago 0 replies      
A coworker told me of his nightmare story from his previous job, where he was accused of sexual harassment by a fellow female co-worker. The crazy part was the HR process, where he was not told who made the complaint, or what was specifically said- so he could not defend/explain himself, let alone know if it was a lie. They did an internal investigation, sided with the female and he was fired. Is this a common HR process?!
lnanek2 1 day ago 0 replies      
I don't understand why she didn't see the founder's wife asking her out to a drink and saying she would work to make her very happy not as an opportunity. She could have asked for her own office at that point, or asked to not have to commit code anymore if the pull request feedback was too harsh and just run the pro-women project she was running, etc.. I would have loved that opportunity.
patcon 1 day ago 0 replies      
I hate not understanding the politics of an organization and community I depend on so much. I dislike not knowing how to feel about all this.

I can't help but be exasperated that the concept of an "open company" is not more common for such critical infrastructure as GitHub. I'm frustrated that I can't simply peer into all these private interactions and social exchanges and chat logs and make my own judgment

LeicaLatte 1 day ago 0 replies      
What is the tech angle to this? Basically people fighting with other people over personal issues. Don't understand why techcrunch is covering this.
sunseb 1 day ago 1 reply      
BTW, it's not sexism at all, the main issue here is between two girls...
thelastpizza 1 day ago 0 replies      
The hula hooping probably wasn't particularly sexual - I would be impressed if any of my coworkers could hula hoop.

I can't. I suck at it. :(

dcope 1 day ago 0 replies      
GitHub employs a handful of women.[1] Have any others ever spoken out about sexism internally? Out of all these women why was Horvath singled out? Maybe I'm missing something but it really seems that this isn't adding up...

[1] https://github.com/about/team

mynameishere 1 day ago 3 replies      
Crazy how women can turn even canonically geeky/boring things like Github into soap operas like "General Hospital". You've got to wonder what kind of drama occurs in actual hospitals, with alpha-doctors and nurses side-by-side. I've heard stories.
danbmil99 1 day ago 0 replies      
Sounds more like a whole bunch of crazy than anything specifically related to gender. I could rewrite this drama with everyone being the same sex and gay and it would read almost identically.
mark_l_watson 1 day ago 0 replies      
I believe JAH's story. I hope she gets another great job and puts this behind her.

On a related issue, github plays a central role in the software development world, and possible signs of internal problems is troubling. It would be a good idea for the github management to properly address this story.

tzakrajs 1 day ago 0 replies      
The sad thing is that this story didn't surprise me. Small to mid size startups are sometimes run by psychopaths. This is because their business scales faster than their fitness for running a business can be tested.
kenster07 1 day ago 2 replies      
I'm glad that at least some of the commenters try to wait for both sides of the story before grabbing a pitchfork.
jw2013 1 day ago 0 replies      
I alway love Github as a company because Tom Preston-werner's storytelling of how Github is a company that optimize for employees' happniess. I hope Github can state something positive for this issue, otherwise it is a big hit to the company not only because of sexism, but also more importantly the losing of the culture of optimizing for happiness.
INTPenis 1 day ago 0 replies      
What is this, big brother?
sizzle 1 day ago 0 replies      
From reading the article, I got the vibe that the wife may have felt innately (territorially?) threatened by the thought of a (pretty) female in the company getting close with her founder husband in a more intimate, rather than professional, type of way. Thoughts?
ChristianMarks 1 day ago 0 replies      
If the allegations are true, I'd like to see a Kickstarter project to fund her litigation.
runewell 1 day ago 0 replies      
LOL, lots of founders will be sleeping on the sofa tonight after telling their spouse to stay the hell away from the office from now on.
digita88 1 day ago 0 replies      
This is a really important issue to talk about, not so much because of the sexism/female engineers angle, but because it deals with how start-ups are managed.

TL;DR1. Have legacy documents, guidelines and policies in place2. GitHub needs to have a look within its management team and decide if they want to continue eating themselves to oblivion.3. Similar to the hacker code of ethics, we need to work on getting MORE people into technology. We should not be excluding people out of technology!

aashishkoirala 1 day ago 1 reply      
I know this is beside the point, but I'm just curious. What did Horvath do at GitHub? Design UI or write code?
jaydz 1 day ago 1 reply      
A really bizarre story.
rch 1 day ago 0 replies      
Maybe we need a new term for 'unacceptable workplace situation exacerbated by gender issues'. This story is more complex than what I expected from the title.
pyre 1 day ago 2 replies      
Towards the end (of the article), it sounds like she was just going to 'quietly' exit the company, until someone (apparently) rage-posted some disparaging remarks about her leaving the company (prior to it becoming public knowledge). Now she wants to leverage public opinion to get Github to take some action... supposedly.
h1karu 1 day ago 0 replies      
It sounds like Julie decided to start banging a coworker and then suddenly became surprised when drama arises in the workplace ?! Isn't she the one who obviously crossed the line first ? It would be one thing if she was with the guy before she got hired, but she met him at work.
dengnan 1 day ago 0 replies      
OK. I thought I could know what was inside her PR. but no, it's kind of like a TV show' story line now.
bsder 1 day ago 0 replies      
Maybe she was a victim, but the credibility of her position is heavily undermined because she is dating a coworker <facepalm>

With that simple revelation, this isn't even worth following anymore.

graycat 1 day ago 1 reply      
Looks to me that the wife of thefounder was doing something that iscommon, 'protecting her man'. Shewas getting a bit carried away and usingpoor judgment and was apparently quite naiveabout business, but such things are notrare.

So, it was two women fighting, very emotionally,and that's not rare either.

The founder needed to keep his wife 'at home'or some such, but these days women resentsuch 'controls'. So, the wife was a loose cannon on the deck of GitHub.

Maybe actually the wife was not a bigproblem except for the one woman in theOP. So, the situation was allowed tocontinue too far.

And the woman in the story may have beena bit overly emotional about some parts of thestory.

Did the founder, the rest of management,HR, etc. do well? Nope. But who other thanthe founder was going to apply 'discipline'to the wife of the founder? Likely no one.

So, there was some office politics, some clashes of personalities, some social discord,etc. Expect something else? Usually don'texpect anything that looks, so far, this bad.

But GitHub apparently has decided not to sayanything until they have developed somegood plans and a careful statement, and thatmight take a while. And in the meanwhile,the case will likely leave the headlines.

I expect that the case will 'blow over' withrelatively little long term harm to GitHub.

blablabla123 1 day ago 0 replies      
Interesting how many aggressive comments there are on the TC article page...
hooda 1 day ago 0 replies      
Howsoever superman you are, you are powerless in front of your wife.. :)I would say that these things are unfortunate and can happen to any startup. Being a founder, you need to take action asap before things starts to go beyond control.Even if some investigation is done into this matter, I don't think anyone will be found guilty as it's a general behavioral/attitude problem and it won't go in matter of days. Let's stop this discrimination (howsoever minor) against women; we need to stand up and speak openly about this. And it's all the more important when a company is getting formed as culture of the company is defined in that stage.
yawboakye 1 day ago 0 replies      
"On no one's word."
fmax30 1 day ago 0 replies      
This sounds really bad . I am crossing out Github from the list of companies that i'd wish to work for.
notastartup 1 day ago 0 replies      
okay so from a quick scan of that article, it appears that

a) she was not made welcome for whatever reasons

b) founder's wife appears to wear the pants in the relationship

c) founder's wife saw her as a potential sexual partner for her husband and wanted to do a preemptive strike.

This incident does damage Github's street cred (if true), it actually sickens me that this engineer was bullied out of her job (if true), and this just is the final cherry on top of Homakov's discoveries of security vulnerabilities in github.

puppetmaster3 1 day ago 0 replies      
Sf is not a good place to be a n00b manager
Karn 1 day ago 0 replies      
The founder's wife sounds like she was threatened by JAH being an attractive and presumably smart woman being around her husband. The founder sounds like a pussy-whipped loser who doesn't know how to set boundaries for his wife. Most of what JAH describes is unfortunately very believable. I've had resentful coworkers delete/overwrite my work in the past.

That said, complaining about men staring at hula hoop dancers just sounds really odd to me. If someone is hula hooping in a non-private space, of course people are going to stare. Being geeks/nerds/people who generally tend not to have the most highly developed social skills, some of those stares may be awkward. Get over it. She wasn't even the one being stared at.

rds2000 1 day ago 3 replies      
1. What part of the article above would be considered hearsay? Aside from the screenshots, it feels the least bit gossipy.

2. Right to confront accusers? This seems extremely one-sided. No one she blames gets to defend themselves, where are the witnesses on either side?

marincounty 1 day ago 0 replies      
Github has designers? I guess I've been going to the wrongsite? I see absolutely no design. It's all business lookhas always depressed me.
2048 AI ov3y.github.io
983 points by shmageggy  6 days ago   187 comments top 68
feral 6 days ago 6 replies      
The AI implements minimax using alpha-beta pruning.

Minimax assumes that the game/computer which the AI is playing against is playing adversarially - i.e. that the computer will insert the new tile that's the worst possible tile for the player/AI to receive.

But that's not actually what the game is doing. Instead, new tiles are inserted randomly. As a result, minimax probably isn't the best approach here.

I think something like monte carlo rollouts would work better. In other words, rather than evaluating a move by "what's the worst that could happen if I make this move", evaluate a move by "what is stochastically likely to happen if I make this move, weighted by how good/bad that outcome is for me." (Losing the game would have a big negative weight, of course).

Given that the current AI isn't actually winning the game, I guess that some sort of monte carlo rollout strategy would do better.

It's still cool to see how minimax does, though, so kudos to the authors - it'd be really interesting to see a comparison of different methods.

primitivesuave 6 days ago 2 replies      
Yesterday I showed this game to a fellow graph theory buff and we also sat down to think about how to solve this game with AI.

The most straightforward solution is expectiminimax, which I see this solution has implemented quite nicely. In case someone here isn't familiar with minimax, the OP wrote some very elegant and well-commented code that would be a great primer.

The less computationally-intensive approach we came up with was to model the game state as a graph G(V, E), where V is the set of active tiles and E is a set of edges connecting adjacent tiles, weighted by the function c(v1, v2), which returns the absolute value of the difference between two tiles. For each decision, the AI picks the move that minimizes the sum of all edge weights in the new game state.

The reasoning behind this is that the only way to progress in the game is to have tiles of equal values adjacent to each other, for which the weight in G would be 0. Thus, the AI should try to minimize total weight. Eventually there will be large numbers on the boards with large edge weights to adjacent tiles, so the AI would try to keep these tiles next to other large tiles to minimize the difference.

Since the game is stochastic the approach I described may not work in a worst case scenario, but it could also be applied to the existing minimax solution as the weight function for each node in the tree.

cscheid 6 days ago 0 replies      
Heh, I did something like this for the original Threes games via computer vision and screenshots :)


Mine is using a minimax variant that replaces the minimum nodes with expectation (given that the choice of next tile is uniformly at random). This is sort of the algorithm used by backgammon solvers. The fun thing is that when expectation factors in, the branching factor is quite wide, but the necessary depth for the algorithm to beat humans is much smaller (with 8-ply on Threes this thing is miles ahead of me, no contest)

terabytest 6 days ago 1 reply      
Hahah, I knew this was coming sooner or later. Thanks! Great job!

EDIT: This AI is a better player than me.

izzydata 6 days ago 8 replies      
I've been playing this for awhile now and I think I have found that the best method is to only use 3 directions. This forces your highest number into a corner and only spawns 2's and 4's in the opposite corner. You build up numbers that cascade down to the corner. It almost never gets stuck, but if you do I guess you'd have to push the 4th direction you haven't been using.
buro9 6 days ago 4 replies      
I'm consistently scoring higher than 2,500, and frequently as high as 3,500 with a tile of 512, by doing this:

1. Up

2. Right

3. Down

4. Left

5. Go to 1.

That loop scores better than my trying.

shmageggy 6 days ago 0 replies      
tbenst 6 days ago 0 replies      
Here's the routine I've used to win multiple times in a row:

1. "tumbler" until 128 can move to the upper left corner (up right down left, repeat)

2. The highest number on the board is always in the upper left. Make the top row descend left to right.

3. Before combining values on the top row, keep hitting up until one of the lower rows will not combine from a left.

4. Often, the slot you are filling (eg, top right or one below top right) will have a two. Alternate pressing left and right until a two appears, allowing you to combine

5. Keep the second row locked as soon as possible with unique values ASCENDING left to right. This way you can use up, left and right without moving the slot you are filling on the far left of the second row.

6. Never fill the top three rows such that a left or right cannot be used. You will be forced to use a down, messing up the top row.

There are a few other pattern recognition tricks that you'll pick up to aid in filling a slot for higher values. Other misc tips:

* try to keep high number squares close together, and merge up to the top row as soon as possible. Otherwise, they will just close off a slot

* You may get a 2 trapped on the top row blocked by a higher value below it. Unfreeze the second row by combining squares & hope that a two appears in the new opening

* only 2's or 4's will appear. They (always?) appear in the space left behind by the previous movement

mkoryak 6 days ago 0 replies      
Back in college I implemented a checker AI that used minimax and a neural network that was trained with a genetic algorithm. After 4 days of tournament on a 400mhz box the resulting AI would almost always beat me. It was always fascinating to me that it used a 4 ply minimax with a 50 hidden nodes and 90 inputs to handily kick my ass.

I always wanted to re-implement it in node and for a cooler game. Alas! I have too many side projects.

The source is here:https://github.com/mkoryak/Evolutionary-Neural-Net-Checker-A...

and you can play against it here:http://mkoryak.github.io/checkers/nn_checker_ai_demo.html requires java, might also require a 7 year old computer)

seventytwo 6 days ago 1 reply      

Whenever two sets of tiles combine in a single move, only one of their scores is counted. For example, let's say that a pair of 8s and a pair of 4s are about to be combined into a new 16 tile and a new 8 tile. The game should be giving us 24 points total for this move because we are creating a 16 tile (16 pts) and an 8 tile (8 pts) where 8+16=24.

However, this does not happen. Only one or the other combination will actually be counted, it seems. In a more egregious case, I combined two 512 tiles to form a new 1024 tile and should have gotten those corresponding points. However, there was also a pair of 2s which combined to make a 4-tile. I only received 4 points for the entire move.

The game should be counting the score from all combined tiles!!! This is why my calculated minimum theoretical score of 20480 (assuming only twos are generated) was completely blown out of the water by winning scores of 12k - because in many cases, the score is incorrectly calculated!

If this is fixed.......

The minimum possible score to win the game (I think...) is 18432, although right now, with the bug, scores can be much lower. Here's how I get that. If we assume only 2s can be generated, then the minimum score is 10*2048 = 20480. However, sometimes a 4 is generated rather than a 2. Apparently, this happens 10% of the time. In theory, it is possible for someone to be given only 4s and also have a perfectly efficient game. In this case, the scoring contribution to get all the 4s from the 2s in the first example is eliminated. The total score of any tier is 2048, so we're remove 2048 from 20480, yielding 18432.

The minimum possible score to reach a winning 2048 tile, once this bug is fixed, should be 18432.

elwell 5 days ago 0 replies      
I find the translate function, though very simple, rather elegant JS:

  AI.prototype.translate = function(move) {   return {      0: 'up',      1: 'right',      2: 'down',      3: 'left'    }[move];  }
Ref: https://github.com/ov3y/2048-AI/blob/master/js/ai.js#L230

danielsamuels 6 days ago 1 reply      
It won first time, impressive! http://i.imgur.com/epUtjyB.png
andyhmltn 6 days ago 2 replies      
That's awesome. I'm looking at the source code but I can't seem to grasp it. What's a simple explanation of how it works?
eck 6 days ago 1 reply      
What are the rules for new tile placement? Is it deterministic, random, or adversarial?
pedrocr 6 days ago 0 replies      
Interesting. It seems the solution I and a couple of people more came up with of keeping the top value in a corner isn't being used. It's amazing how it's able to keep the large numbers together throughout the game.

The gameplay is much more interesting but it seems that getting from 1024 to 2048 is much harder this way, probably because the randomness accumulates over time making the depth search unreliable. The more structured solution accumulates much less risk so has some margin to deal with this.

seventytwo 6 days ago 2 replies      
I'm running some trials here and keeping track of the results with this AI. I'll edit this when I have the data to provide the information.

Something that occurred to me is that "score" and "winning" can have different optimizations. Score is based upon combining blocks, where as winning is based upon reaching the 2048 block. This means the game can be optimzed in two different ways: 1) To maximize score, wherein your goal is to delay reaching 2048 until the last possible moment to allow yourself time to rack up score, and 2) to reach 2048 in the optimal number of moves, which means a lower score.

You're scored on what you combine in a move. So, if you combine two "4" tiles to yield and "8" tile, you'll get 8 points, and so on. To maximize score, the idea would be to basically waste space on the board building up tiles you don't need, while avoiding getting to 2048. In theory, one could build up many 1024 tiles, and maybe even combine several at once to yield multiple 2048 tiles.

To minimize moves in order to reach the fastest would basically be a game of golf. You'd need to reach 2048, but the lowest score in doing so would, by default, mean you've completed the game more efficiently. There's probably some absolute minimum score, but I'm too lazy to figure that out right now...

mediocregopher 6 days ago 0 replies      
My friend found you can get pretty far in the game (at least a 1024 block) if you just spam RIGHT-DOWN-LEFT-DOWN repeatedl (basically rolling your fingers across the bottom row of arrow keys).

It was a little upsetting when I had actually been putting thought into my play and he was doing better.

spyckie2 6 days ago 0 replies      
You can add a simple heuristic to the scoring to increase the win rate by a lot - weighted corners.

Add the logged value of the numbers on the corners to the score and the higher numbers will tend to 'stick' to them. This also serves as a mechanism to guarantee that the new numbers appear away from the large numbers, which tend to block them from combining.

I also turned down the compute time to 20ms and it still runs well.

js2 6 days ago 1 reply      
It's like watching War Games - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHWjlCaIrQo
syntern 6 days ago 2 replies      
A new browser performance benchmark has born?
cordite 6 days ago 3 replies      
It gets so close! http://puu.sh/7rrD6.png

I find it frustrating to watch it hit (where I have not managed to get to) where you have one block 128, 256, 512, and a 1024. Moving around only makes it harder to join things together.

I am rather convinced this game is more by luck than actual good-play.

rcthompson 6 days ago 5 replies      
Is this game always guaranteed to be winnable, or is it like Solitaire?
JanecekPetr 6 days ago 0 replies      
I haven't read the source code yet, so this might be off right of the bat. But from the general knowledge of minmax I think the end-game code might need some tweaking.

If there is a guaranteed win, the algorithm will find it. However, if there isn't any, how does it pick a path when it thinks it will lose every time?Are all losses equal to each other? Are some better than the others? Could the elgorithm take the path with best chances where the most of the plays end up winning while only a few of them end up losing?

rafeed 6 days ago 0 replies      
I watched this run for about 5 minutes and it failed at 1024 with under 5000 points. It looks pretty cool, although it defies all logic when forming the squares (it put the largest number in the middle several times).
danmaz74 6 days ago 1 reply      
I tried twice and it didn't finish, after getting to 1024 both times... this shows just how difficult is that game!
mightybyte 6 days ago 0 replies      
Nice job on the AI! I can still do much better much quicker by hand using the left-down-right-down-left-... strategy. Obviously an alpha-beta search should be able to do better than that naive strategy, but it needs a little more domain knowledge.
iandanforth 6 days ago 0 replies      
I was genuinely surprised when the AI lost.
sireat 5 days ago 0 replies      
This AI was doing impressively well but still did not quite reach 2048 stopping just before the end.

The way I won myself rather quickly was using bottom right priority and ignoring up key(which was suggested by HN).

That is put highest scoring tiles bottom and sorted to the right if possible.

So it is mostly down, right, with some lefts, but no ups. This way is really easy to get 1024, I think I reached 2048 on the 3rd try with this strategy(score was 20k something).

frabcus 5 days ago 0 replies      
What algorithms might do better than this minimax? I've just read all the comments and there are no suggestions...
ericcumbee 4 days ago 0 replies      
I think it's pretty clear the Author of this game is a NSA agent trying to distract us.
helgefmi 5 days ago 0 replies      
I was coincidentally working on the same thing when I saw this yesterday. Pushed the code to https://github.com/helgefmi/c2048 if it's of anyones interest.

It's just a wicked fast board implementation with a simple depth first search, as of now. But the idea of "making up" an opponent to make it possible to do alpha beta pruning is a cool idea. I might try to implementet it myself.

I regularly get scores above 50k with AI_DEPTH=5-6 and NUM_TRIES=20-30. My record so far is a score of 220k :-).

lettergram 6 days ago 1 reply      
I ran it twice and it failed to achieve 2048, are other people having similar issues? Either way, nice attempt it works pretty darn well for 1 night of work.
NKCSS 5 days ago 0 replies      
3rd3 6 days ago 1 reply      
Id be curious to see evolutionary or machine learning algorithms playing this.
crusso 6 days ago 1 reply      
While the game is difficult to finish, I'm kind of saddened at how far I can go just by randomly hitting up arrow, left arrow, down arrow, right arrow, etc.
reignsly 5 days ago 0 replies      
Guys. I dont need the AI anymore.I have created my own patterns and methods.

Tada! I got my 2048 tile :) So happy


Houshalter 6 days ago 0 replies      
How would I go about making an AI for this game? Mainly getting it to interface with the actual game input and output.
tUrG0n 3 days ago 0 replies      
YAY made it :3 http://grab.by/v9BA ^_^
deletes 6 days ago 1 reply      
How does it decide where the new tile will appear, or it just tries every possibility?
BenoitP 5 days ago 0 replies      
Nice one :)

Now, since the board is 16 tiles, and that you need two 2^n can make a 2^(n+1), the max game that can be played is 2^16=65536.

Can a 65536 game can be reallistically won, can it be by OP's AI?

johnnymonster 6 days ago 0 replies      
Seeing the AI work makes me no longer want to play the game. Take to long to get to 2048!
danatkinson 6 days ago 0 replies      
Brilliant game! I got pretty close, but even the AI managged to fail just a few moves before the completion. :( http://i.imgur.com/F2ldDAS.png
taternuts 6 days ago 1 reply      
I'm just counting down until someone builds this for the iPhone/Android for $.99
rrival 6 days ago 0 replies      
Strange game. The only way to win is not to play.
homakov 6 days ago 1 reply      
if this is AI why it scores only 512 square as max?
JetSpiegel 6 days ago 0 replies      
Sadly, totally unrelated to the Hong Kong film...
dshibarshin 6 days ago 1 reply      
Works like a charm, got to 2048 and over 10k points

Second time around was pretty close http://i.imgur.com/psdSwjM.png

ltray 6 days ago 0 replies      
I wrote a script last night that does a simple: up, right, down, left. Ran it for a few thousand games last night -- highest it got was over 10k, and consistently got around 2.5-3k.
sritchie 6 days ago 3 replies      
Boom, 13,068 points and 2048! I'm feeling some pride in my AI.


jheriko 6 days ago 0 replies      
very cool.

now... for a who can make the optimal AI competition... :P

rplnt 6 days ago 0 replies      
Oh well, I lost with AI as well. I just let it run and got to a game over with 8476 points.
krastanov 6 days ago 0 replies      
I think that the scoring system can be improved. This AI wins with a lot less moves than me, hence it gets lower score for a solution "smarter" than mine.
satchipear 4 days ago 0 replies      
Cool game!! Can't stop playing it. Finally achieved 2048 w/ score 21028 :
deeteecee 6 days ago 0 replies      
what a fun and easy game. beats a lot of the fps games for me out there. my strategy was just stack the higher numbers together, left down right up and never use right. i ended up with this: http://imgur.com/KuqAJTM&hrfol9i
pharshal 5 days ago 0 replies      
Not sure why but every time I ran it on Firefox it failed, but it succeeded solving it on chrome always.
rhapsodyv 6 days ago 0 replies      
I always get at least 1024 now. I'm playing somehow like tetris...
rhapsodyv 6 days ago 0 replies      
Anyone implementing other IA technique? What's the link?
jjallen 6 days ago 2 replies      
Does the AI guarantee winning?
pyed 6 days ago 0 replies      
my AI won the game with a score of 20388

pic: https://cloudup.com/chDTLSElXDN

flaxin 5 days ago 0 replies      
memorizing watching it "play" by it's self

i KNEW the AI would have been coming sooner or later [no this fast though], GREAT JOB!

nkg 5 days ago 0 replies      
CoolBut why the autorun can't get a win?
jjallen 6 days ago 0 replies      
Please, please, please don't implement rankings...
joeblau 6 days ago 1 reply      
Math... the fun killer.
drydot 6 days ago 0 replies      
I find this game quite addictive, contratulations!
kemo 6 days ago 0 replies      
It just won on 1st attempt here. Good job
dmarlow 6 days ago 0 replies      
So close to getting 2048. Cool stuff!
itsmohit 6 days ago 0 replies      
Cool, spent 15 minutes.
itsmohit 6 days ago 0 replies      
What Dreams May Come d4l3.com
748 points by jmadsen  4 days ago   381 comments top 55
darthclue 4 days ago 19 replies      
Jonathan here. Being woke up by my wife crying because the donations just aren't stopping is both heart-breaking and comforting.

For those of you who haven't seen the 'Bucket List' post, here's what it says at the very top:

As I try to deal with the reality that is my impending death I can't help but wonder how many things I might have been able to accomplish given just a little more time. When I was diagnosed, I had only one thing that I wanted; to live long enough to see my children grow up. The reality is that the odds of me living long enough to see my children grow are quite slim. The only available treatment will eventually stop working and then it's just a matter of time.

This is the list of things that I want to accomplish while I still have time. Many of them aren't for me. They are for my family. They are meant to provide security for my wife and kids so that they can celebrate my life instead of mourning my death when that time comes.

My priorities are taking care of my family just as they always have been. Sometimes, we just can't plan far enough ahead to deal with something like this. If you saw the original page you would also note that Trips and meeting celebrities is not high on my list of priorities. Those are things that would provide me with a small boost on an emotional level but I don't consider them something that must happen before I die.

Life Insurance: I changed jobs and don't have any and now that I'm terminal, the cost for obtaining it is prohibitive. I agree that this is poor planning on my part, however, I'm 35 and no one expects to find out that they are going to die at 35. We all think we have plenty of time and the reality is that we don't.

Health Insurance: Thank god that I have this or we would've been sunk from the beginning. Despite having insurance, there continue to be ongoing costs and once I go on long-term disability I'll be paying cobra rates to keep the same coverage. I have no idea how expensive this will be but I don't expect it to be cheap.

This really isn't about me or the money, this is about my family and trying to ease their pain. I know that I'm living on borrowed time right now and I could be dead at any moment. All I want to do is spend as much time as I can with my kids so that they know I loved them. You try telling a 6 year old that her daddy has cancer and will be dead before she turns 8. Hardest thing I've ever had to do and I would never wish it any one.

For those of you that have helped us, thank you is not enough.

jmadsen 4 days ago 2 replies      
OP here:

His donation page is at: https://www.giveforward.com/fundraiser/w704/beating-cancer-o... which can handle the load much better

Should have thought to put that up earlier

bherms 4 days ago 6 replies      
It's sad that when we find out something this devastating (you're dying), that we have to spend our last weeks/months/years worrying about, of all things, money. Nobody deserves this sort of thing happening to them, and when it does happen, it hurts me to think they can't spend their last months on earth focused on enjoying time with their loved ones and instead have to live in fear that their family is going to be able to survive without an extra paycheck. It should be a time of finding peace within the chaos that is life, but instead it's like adding insult to injury. :(
stefantalpalaru 4 days ago 6 replies      
So the house you purchased and the van you upgraded to are not yours, disposing of your body costs more than a car, visiting family means you have to stay in a hotel, the basic survival needs of your wife and four children are not guaranteed and you want to visit Disneyland and meet celebrities before you die?

Capitalism is beautiful.

lnanek2 4 days ago 8 replies      
Kind of bizarre seeing someone else's value system which is completely alien to my own. If I was leaving my wife and kids with mortgage and car loan debt, I wouldn't spend $10-20k on a graveyard plot, that's for sure. I don't think I would in any case, I'd just get cremated or whatever the cheapest option is.
ryandetzel 4 days ago 0 replies      
As a father in my thirties this hits home but I can't help but wonder WHY DON'T YOU HAVE LIFE INSURANCE? This is what it's for! For the cost of a few dinners out a year you could have 500k of coverage and right now you'd be spending time with your loved ones instead of worrying about money.

Please, if you have dependents (people that need your income) buy life insurance. It's cheap (if you're young and healthy) and death can happen to anyone of us at anytime for any reason.

/ end rant.

I feel for you though, this is super sad and I can't imagine not seeing my kids grow up. I wish you the best.

huhtenberg 4 days ago 2 replies      
girvo 4 days ago 6 replies      
I feel nothing but sympathy for Jonathan. I can barely imagine the pain he and his family would be going through :( What are the medical costs for someone with terminal cancer in the USA? I assume they're pretty astronomical, so I can understand why he'd ask for help (I'm donating myself).

In terms of his house and the like, I was always led to believe that life insurance was specifically for cases like his? Is life insurance a big thing in America? My parents have always had a lot of cover, but I'm pretty sure that was because of my Dad being a civil engineer and foreman, so his work was sort of dangerous. I don't know much about how life insurance works, mind you, so I'm sort of guessing here, for all I know Jonathan doesn't have any or if he did he's not covered for something like this (and to be would require premiums that are huge, or something). Anyone shed some light for me?

Good luck Jonathan. I'm not a religious person, but I can hope for the best to occur, however unlikely.

mynameishere 3 days ago 3 replies      
Depressing that someone facing death would worry about Disney World and Casa Bonita. I spent a vacation at Disney World when I was 9 years old and recognized it as a plastic mold-injected bore--not in those words at the time, but good god I knew it was a tiresome waste of life, even at that age. Casa Bonita is a South Park episode. Enough said about that.

But hey, you're the one who didn't buy life insurance like a responsible parent, so a non-sad sob story is your only chance of paying off your SUV. Great. Why do I care about your SUV? Also, why do I care whether you get a pricey funeral rather than a county funeral? Also, why are you more important than all of us who are born to die?

Also, why was this posted?

jreed91 4 days ago 0 replies      
Hi johnathan. My father just passed away from stage IV melanoma. He was 52. Luckily he left us financially sound. But if there is anything I can do to help you out please don't hesitate to ask. I've done my research on any treatment you could possibly have to beat this cancer. Melanoma is becoming more beatable every day and people are living for years even when they are stage IV. If you have questions please email at jreed91@gmail.com
snarfy 4 days ago 0 replies      
Skip the resting place costs. Get a dirt cheap cremation. Do the funeral at home. It really doesn't matter. My mother passed not too long ago and I inherited half a dozen dead relative's ashes to go throw away. Your family will be much better off with the $20k than with memories of a church and possibly a tombstone to go visit maybe once or twice in their lives.
danielweber 4 days ago 1 reply      
This comment page makes me rage.

About a third blame the guy, as if buying a house at the age of 32 is crazy.

About a third just use his tragedy as a soapbox to knee-jerk blame the American health care system, as if people dying of cancer in other countries don't face a loss of income.

The remaining third give me some hope for humanity.

n_coats 4 days ago 0 replies      
I live in Orlando, 30 minutes from all the parks. Please reach out to me if and when you and your family make this trip. I will help in any way I can. I know, from my personal network, that I can help in getting free tickets and an employee rate at one of the park hotels. I'd be more than happy to provide transportation for you and your family to and from the airport as well.

If you make it this way, please contact me, I'd love to help!

vans 4 days ago 1 reply      
Sorry if i seem to be rude, but even if you're dying, you're still a human being and i will respect you. So, i won't be full of mercy and so on, i'm just going to be genuine. Your story is sad, as the story for million of people dying from this shit.But, if i help you, maybe i'd be ok with my conscience but this won't change anything for the 999 999 people remaining.If i choose to give money to fight against cancer, it would be for research and not for a particular case (even if it's sad).That being said, i truly understand that emotion and love drive me to give you some money, but i have to stay efficient and fair.
linker3000 4 days ago 0 replies      
This hits a nerve - a neighbour (in the UK) is dying of a brain tumour and the NHS does not have the facilities for effective treatment. There's a fundraising campaign to send Gavin to the USA for specialist treatment which may save his life, and he's just been told he may not be around this time next year without it.


Good luck to everybody facing similar timelines.

[Edit: I can't spell]

baby 4 days ago 3 replies      
> Prepare for / pay for my final arrangments : $20,000

I'm not here to bash, but with so much money problem why do people want to spend so much money on their death? If I die I just want people to get rid of my body in the cheapest way possible. Just burn me or give me to science.

terragold 4 days ago 2 replies      
I have sympathy for this guy as a human being with cancer, especially with a family and all. But I have no sympathy for this guy as a person and for the financial choices he has made.

Having 4 kids, big house and car, expensive grave, need to travel, meet celebrities screams greed, irresponsibility and entitlement.

You could have not had 4 kids and had 2. You could have rented a place and bought a used car. The problem isn't wanting something better, the problem is that you decided to buy those things without earning it and with money you did not have. All these are choices you made as a person. And to take your family down with you is selfish and irresponsible.

Definitely won't be donating.

eXpl0it3r 4 days ago 2 replies      
Yet another example why I try not to make any debts, especially when it comes to such large numbers, because you never know what tomorrow holds. Either you have the money or you don't. It really saddens me that it's normal nowadays to live on debts. I rather live my life less luxurious but debts free.

After all, I wish them all the best!

chaostheory 4 days ago 1 reply      
> Pay off our mortgage : $186,000

This is a little strange to me. Unless he was a freelancer, every tech job that I'm aware of has decent life insurance options that would easily cover this. If you add a few more dollars it covers college as well.

I definitely can't stress the importance of getting life insurance from a reputable company.

thinkpad20 4 days ago 0 replies      
My dad died from cancer at 36. I was 10 and had a 7-year-old brother and 11-year-old sister. I guess I can relate in some way, being on the opposite end of it. I'm sure I don't need to tell you to spend as much time as possible with your kids, because they will treasure every memory as they grow up. My heart goes out to you and I wish you and your family the best possible.
ilovecookies 4 days ago 1 reply      
Even though I feel for your situation... Seriously this has nothing to do with hacker news. This is more of a reddit post that has snuck in here somehow.
johnnymonster 4 days ago 0 replies      
This really sucks! Does he not have any life insurance? I remember when I was working full time, I had a life insurance policy worth 5x my salary, which should cover the costs for the things he wants to pay off. After becoming a contractor, this was one of the first things I secured. I didn't want my family to be left with nothing when I died.
josh_fyi 4 days ago 2 replies      
Let me get this right.

Major diseases are the most important reason for health insurance to exist.

But in the US, if you get a major disease, you lose your job, then within 18 months your coverage, and then the insurance is gone.

Is this correct?

xwintermutex 4 days ago 0 replies      
Two years ago, when I was 28, a 20cm large tumor was found between my lungs, after increasing problems with breathing. I was lucky enough to have "the right cancer", and to live in a western nation. As far as scans can tell, it is gone. I wish this guy the very very best.
avenueb 4 days ago 0 replies      
The #1 reason I limited myself to 2 kids was so that I did not have to drive a mini-van. The #2 reason was my concern I could not adequately provide for them.
BrandonMarc 4 days ago 0 replies      
MatthewWilkes 4 days ago 4 replies      
20k for a funeral? Really? Seemed legit until that.
tirant 4 days ago 1 reply      
I feel very sorry for him, one shouldn't need to think about money when he has just (hopefully not) a few months left.

Said that, wouldn't it be cheaper for him and his family to move to an European country, and get therapy there?

In most europeans countries you just pay a low and flat rate (around 100 a month) and you can get Cancer treatment or whatever is needed.

I really want to help him, but I hate that at the end all the money will go into the greedy american health industry.

piyushpr134 4 days ago 1 reply      
Tragic as this story is, I would like to raise a point that could make life easier in event of untimely death i.e. term insurance. Term insurance is something that one should always get after getting married (or even before if your family is dependent on you). Multiple term insurances can be bought so you can keep buying more as your liabilities increase.
koala_advert 4 days ago 0 replies      
These title changes are getting ridiculous. The original title was actually descriptive. I have no idea what this article is about without going to the comments or clicking on it. The whole point of a link title is to describe the link.
eric_the_read 4 days ago 0 replies      
My father died at 38, from a cancer, and I just had some severely atypical skin removed. This story hits very close to home for me. My deepest sympathies go to everyone involved.
mmphosis 4 days ago 0 replies      
The lifetime risk of developing cancer:

   Males:   43.92%   Females: 38.00%

siculars 4 days ago 0 replies      
How about a Star Trek catan tabletop webisode with OP, wilw, aw and fd. Just film as a regular episode and don't mention the C word. I'm sure someone here could reach out to @wilw...
kartman 4 days ago 0 replies      
I hope for the best for you. One suggestion to use as you see fit, the overhead on the donate is quite high - maybe you can create and list a bitcoin address you control on your blog.
danielweber 4 days ago 0 replies      
Changing the headline on this article REALLY REALLY SUCKS.
alandarev 4 days ago 0 replies      
The story is particularly touching, as it is a 'regular' person speaking.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, you reminded me of my own vulnerability and that we all have to be prepared for the worst case scenario.

Best of my sincere wishes.

frade33 4 days ago 0 replies      
I wish I had enough money to help you out. All I can offer is, a sincere prayer for you and your family. May God help you and your family and ease your the trouble.
bigs204 4 days ago 0 replies      
Looks like the website might be on the verge of getting hn ddos'd. Can someone inform him/possibly hook him up with mirror/hosting? I think opening up bitcoin wallet will be helpful too.

Memento mori - deepest thanks for a wakeup call.

northband 4 days ago 0 replies      
Curious if you've heard of http://phoenixtears.ca/ I don't know if it works for everyone but I can vouch that it does for some.
jkochis 4 days ago 0 replies      
Whatever you do, don't eat the food at Casa Bonita! They require you to purchase a meal in order to go in, but DO NOT EAT IT.

You can eat the sopaipillas though.

Ygg2 4 days ago 0 replies      
:( I lost my grandma to cancer, but from what I've heard cancer in young people is even more devastating (young cells reproduce more quickly).
mattholtom 4 days ago 0 replies      
The giveforward site is now really active. I hope it is load friendly because it is being hugged very hard right now..
jankerz 4 days ago 0 replies      
My father was in the same situation when he was 38 and somehow managed to make it to 48. I truly hope you are graced with the same luck as him.
ktzar 4 days ago 2 replies      
Instead of donating to this guy I'd prefer to advocate for a free health system and a system that doesn't fuck up a family that has had enough bad luck to see its father die.

Having someone in his last months of life begging for money to not leave his family screwed up seems like a waste of those precious last weeks.

grifpete 4 days ago 0 replies      
Is no help possible from the new personalized targeted T cell therapies?
sq1020 4 days ago 0 replies      
Everyone's death is impending. Life is by it's very nature limited. It baffles me as to how some very intelligent people seem to believe that we can "beat" death, that death can be cured! What a curious notion advocated by none other than the director of engineering at Google!

Someone once asked a sage, "Why do we fear death and cling to life so much?" The sage said, "We fear death because we have prepared nothing for it while we have constructed for ourselves a comfortable, familiar life. Why would you look forward to going to something for which you haven't prepared anything and why would you look forward to leaving something for which you invested all of your time and effort?"

jordangurnzz 2 days ago 0 replies      
Jonathan good luck man I have stage 4 Melanoma with tumors throughout as well, been on b RAF for a few months and getting in to til ( I hope) end of month. If you ever need someone to talk life or death with please reach out. Jordan jordangurnzz@gmail.com chemoblog.WordPress.com
danieltillett 4 days ago 0 replies      
There is nothing I can realy say other than I wish you and your family the best.
edwardchiapet 4 days ago 0 replies      
Donated -- stay strong, man!

Love your story and your priority list!

napolux 4 days ago 1 reply      
Is there any PayPal account available?
kimonos 4 days ago 0 replies      
This post makes me sad.. I hope and pray that you recover and enjoy life longer..
peter303 4 days ago 0 replies      
Star Wars VII in late 2015
shivmsit 4 days ago 1 reply      
Cancer is devastating and heartbreaking. I lost my brother at age 24, felt agony of cancer patient. Don't know why we can't cure cancer?
triberian 4 days ago 0 replies      
Sorry to hear, look into THC oil.
edem 4 days ago 1 reply      
Take a lot of Omega3+D vitamins and live on instead.
Dark spot under cockpit of A-10s stackexchange.com
733 points by mholt  11 days ago   185 comments top 29
jug6ernaut 11 days ago 7 replies      
While off topic, i found this interesting bit of information on the a10's gun wiki page.

"The recoil force of the GAU-8/A[16] is 10,000 pounds-force (45 kN),[3] which is slightly more than the output of one of the A-10's two TF34 engines (9,065 lbf / 40.3 kN each).[17] While this recoil force is significant, in practice cannon fire only slows the aircraft a few miles per hour in level flight."

The gun firing produces more force through recoil on the plane then is produced by one of the plane's engines. That is simply amazing.

Edit: The guns wiki page(it has a wiki page).


ericcumbee 11 days ago 9 replies      
My dad has always said that the A-10 is an infantryman's best friend. an F-16 or F-18 will straff over the battle field and is gone. an A-10 will just hang around.

When I was younger we went to a nature preserve that is adjacent to the gunnery range at Moody Air Force base. We went up in an observation tower overlooking the preserve and watched A-10s do strafing practice. The sound of the GAU-8 main gun is something you have to hear to believe. If bad intentions have a sound it's that gun.

larrydag 11 days ago 5 replies      
The A-10 is one on of the aircraft that is on the list for retirement from the US Air Force. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunder...

The A-10 is a cold war designed attack jet to be used to take out Soviet tanks. Its really good at slow (relatively) , guided, precise air-to-ground strikes. I think it would make a good candidate for a new class of a drones fleet.

jmount 11 days ago 0 replies      
A-10 was a Boyd sponsored aircraft, a fun topic: http://www.win-vector.com/blog/2010/04/deming-wald-and-boyd-...
davidedicillo 11 days ago 1 reply      
The most fascinating thing about this for me is that it's nothing more than what many fishes do.
thearn4 11 days ago 3 replies      
Pretty clever.

False cockpit aside, the A-10 is my favorite plane of all time. It has a sound that's really unmistakable.

(well, technically I guess it's the GAU-8 making the sound...)

dba7dba 11 days ago 1 reply      
A joke I heard is that if Air Force was allowed to buy whatever plane it wanted, every single one of them would be a single seat jet fighter that goes very fast. No cargo plane, no helicopter, no tanker, no CAS plane.

Air Force should just hand over A-10 to Army, the ones who really know how valuable A-10 is.

beat 11 days ago 0 replies      
I figured that dark spot was just the result of pilots doing dangerous maneuvers while getting shot at by tanks and AA. I'd leave a dark spot, too.
dkrich 11 days ago 0 replies      
When I was a kid I saw this demo tape and was blown away by how lethal and intimidating the A-10 looked. Ever since I've been fascinated with it. The video quality is very poor because this was shot in the late seventies or early eighties but it demonstrates the ferocity of the plane pretty well.


frou_dh 11 days ago 0 replies      
I don't know how accurate it is, but I remember this entertaining video of A-10 designer Pierre Sprey talking about how the new F-35 is garbage:


Themes of bloat and unwarranted complexity are perhaps universal.

WalterBright 11 days ago 0 replies      
For those interested in the unusual development of the A-10, see the book "Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War".
beebs93 11 days ago 3 replies      
I was really expecting something 10x more complex (e.g. A special WiFi-reflecting paint that prevents missiles from stealing the A-10s bandwidth or some such).

I love how simple yet effective it is. A very "just-use-a-pencil-in-outer-space"-type solution.

xbryanx 11 days ago 2 replies      
Ships in WWII used to use techniques like this as well. I saw a great exhibit on camouflage at the Imperial War Museum that featured quite a few examples of this:


evanm 11 days ago 1 reply      
Bigger question -- who knew there was an aviation Stack Exchange??!? I always went to quora to read kind of stuff.
arethuza 11 days ago 1 reply      
Reminds me of eye mimicry in animal camouflage:


tehwebguy 10 days ago 0 replies      
I was more surprised to read that it was patented. Not that it doesn't make sense, but I had never considered that governments might not use a particular military tool because of a licensing issue.
cushychicken 11 days ago 1 reply      
Interesting answer. My offhand guess would have been discoloration in the metal due to heat put off by this monster:


Warhawg01 10 days ago 1 reply      
The amount of silly garbage in this thread is astounding. I thought you HN folks were supposed to be smart. Anyone here actually fly A-10s? Or been on the ground and had one support you?

No, the plane does not slow down when you shoot the gun.

Source: I have almost 3000 hours in this plane. Flew today, actually.

userbinator 11 days ago 0 replies      
"I have an A-10 with this stain under the cockpit. I've tried scrubbing it with soap and water, jet fuel, and degreaser, but it stays there. Does anyone know a better solvent?"

I was expecting something like that from the title...

kjs3 11 days ago 1 reply      
Before this, the armchair generals were all "stupid military, retiring the A-1 Skyraider with a jet! How can a jet loiter on target long enough to do close air support worth a shit!".
yawz 11 days ago 0 replies      
I like it! Very much like mimicking the nature. That type of naturally evolved patterns are common in nature (fish, birds, insects, etc.) to confuse predators.
JabavuAdams 11 days ago 0 replies      
I wonder how badly that would mess up combat drones' vision systems?

Welcome to a world of anti-machine-vision camouflage.

rplnt 11 days ago 2 replies      
Is there air-air combat happening somewhere in the world? If not, when was the last time this could have been used?
BrownBuffalo 10 days ago 0 replies      
Equally as interesting is the Naval efforts of many countries to camo their ships. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage - Jazz Hands, anyone?
ilovecookies 10 days ago 0 replies      
That plane has to be quite sturdy to fire that gun. 10 tonnes from the front and four from the back.
tomphoolery 11 days ago 0 replies      
Octopus-driven security.
ilovecookies 10 days ago 0 replies      
This is seriously turning more and more into reddit.
gdonelli 11 days ago 0 replies      
old school technology borrowed from nature!
kackontent 11 days ago 0 replies      
Boys with toys. Toys for killing people.
Update on Julie Horvath's Departure github.com
642 points by bentlegen  1 day ago   440 comments top 57
sequoia 22 hours ago 6 replies      
When I arrived at this thread, comment two was 'using the information available in the short techcrunch article, I'm now going to PROVE, point by point, how Horvath's claims are false.'

Comment three was 'aha they issued a vague apology, this is basically a FULL ADMISSION that everything Horvath said was true!'

People: when did our brains melt and spill out of our ears? There is not enough public information present to reliably prove or disprove anything at this point; Github issued a nonspecific semi-apology (to wit: "Its certain that there were things we could have done differently" well, yeah this is usually the case) with some promising indications that they are taking the issue seriously & looking into it.

Now we wait. Stop saying github is admitting to every point of Horvath's assertions! Stop saying Horvath is a liar! You don't know these things! Take deep breaths, listen for a bit, and wait for more information to come out.

skywhopper 1 day ago 3 replies      
It's good to see this statement out of Github. The general tone and specifically the mention of the founder's wife in this post gives a huge amount of credence to Julie's claims. I hope Github follows through on this with as much sincerity and determination as this post implies.
PakG1 22 hours ago 3 replies      
The actions that Github has taken lends credibility to what Horvath has said. Of course, we'll not know the whole truth until sometime in the future, if ever.

Even if this episode were only hypothetical, this episode reminds me that many people have poor decision-making abilities, even if they are super intelligent. A co-founder of a company like Github would and should have a very good brain and very good decision-making prowess. And yet, here we see instances of him possibly:

1. Not being able to identify boundaries between his personal life and his work life, and allowing factors from his personal life to influence his work life, possibly very negatively (magnified by his position at the company).

2. Not being able to communicate with people and ascertain the truth of the matter. Someone had to lie to cause him to accuse Horvath of lying: either his wife lied or Horvath lied, and he didn't appear to do a good job of getting the truth and resolving the situation.

3. Having perhaps made a poor marriage decision. I would not be surprised if everyone downvotes me for this speculation, and am sorry if this ruffles features. But if this episode is true, there are very few ways that this co-founder's marriage comes out looking good. Either he's absolutely insensitive to the needs of his company or he's completely whipped by a woman who cares more about herself than him. If it's a poor marriage decision, he wouldn't be the first person in history, people from all walks of life seem to make poor marriage decisions all the time.

In the end, I am reminded again that people are messy, and no matter how intelligent they appear to be, they can still have the potential to act stupidly.

curiousgeorgio 23 hours ago 7 replies      
Of course we may never know for sure exactly what was said (unless everything was secretly recorded somehow... NSA - data, please), but my initial reaction is that this story sounds a bit... exaggerated. Were things said that shouldn't have been said? Probably so. But here's the way I read it from TC:

Let's look at what Horvath claims:

> character started being discussed in inappropriate places like on pull requests and issues

It's unclear what exactly this means, and in most cases, bringing up someone's character in PRs is certainly inappropriate. Does it happen? Yes, it happens all the time, regardless of gender. A PR comment like "it's a bit naive to assume these conditions will be met in this instruction - please fix" is technically bringing up someone's character inappropriately. She never claimed (at least as quoted by TC) that sexist or intimidating things were brought up in PRs/issues - just that "character started being discussed".

> She calls her colleagues response to her own work and the work of other female GitHub employees a serious problem.

Again, pretty unclear. The response to her work MAY have had nothing to do with her gender or any kind of personal/social conflict, but rather based solely on performance. If such was the case, then I'd say colleagues tend to "respond" to other people's work all day long. I honestly can't say the "response" in this case was completely benign, but again, the article and direct quotes certainly don't seem to point at anything specific.

> she struggled to feel welcome.

This is a common feeling in pretty much any workplace or environment, regardless of who you are.

> she did her best to distance herself from the founders wife, as well as the founder, for fear of being caught up in an unhealthy situation.

This is mentioned before anything else regarding the founder or the founder's wife. It sounds like (at least the way it's presented in the article) some kind of animosity was felt even before any real interaction between the parties. That could be based on anything (including possibly Horvath's own prejudgement). The truth is we don't know because we aren't given any more details.

> almost immediately the conversation that I thought was supposed to be causal turned into something very inappropriate. She began telling me about how she informs her husbands decision-making at GitHub, how I better not leave GitHub and write something bad about them, and how she had been told by her husband that she should intervene with my relationship to be sure I was made very happy so that I wouldnt quit and say something nasty about her husbands company because he had worked so hard.... the wife went on to claim that she was responsible for hires at GitHub, and asked Horvath to explain to her what she was working on.

Just for sake of argument, here's a possible conversation that could be twisted into fitting the above description:

"Glad you could join us for drinks! My husband works hard to create an amazing workplace at GitHub, and even though I'm not a part of the company myself, I enjoy meeting the employees and want to help people feel welcome the best way I can. My husband told me you're fairly new... what is it you do? That's great. I just want to make sure you're very happy at GitHub. In some way, I feel responsible for helping make sure the company treats everyone well. If there's anything that could be better, I might be able to put in a word with him. The last thing they'd want is for you to have a bad experience and leave the company."

That's just an example of something I wouldn't be surprised to hear from a founder's spouse in a startup environment.

> The wife also claimed to employ spies inside of GitHub, and claimed to be able to, again according to Horvath, read GitHub employees private chat-room logs, which only employees are supposed to have access to

I agree this is definitely crossing a line, but of course the wife only "claimed" to have this access. That doesn't mean she does, and I could easily see it being said in a low voice (trying to win over someone's "exclusive" or "secret" friendly confidence) along the lines of:

"I'm not officially with GitHub, but I have ears. I try to keep close tabs on what employees are saying about the company in the chat rooms and company chit-chat."

The next few events are pretty vague. It includes rumors, a random profession of love (and rejection) outside the workplace (if she had a problem with trespassing, she should have called the cops; the male engineer's reaction at work - if true - should have been corrected by HR, but it sounds like it was never brought up to HR by Horvath as it should have been), Horvath "feeling threatened", and "the founder accus[ing] her of threatening his wife", followed by the wife "sitting close to Horvath". Lots of generalities.

Finally it bubbles to the point of Horvath claiming "The next thing I knew the wife was in my face at my work station verbally attacking me"

From my own experience, perfectly civil conversations can often be turned into "verbal attacks" later if it helps a person's case. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but the details are just so vague. What was the conversation about?

As for the hula hooping... you're telling me that two women hula hooping to music in the workplace is perfectly appropriate, but when the other people nearby (who are going to be mostly males if the majority of employees are male - go figure) suddenly notice, that's the inappropriate part? Really?

I certainly won't say that Horvath is making this stuff up, and it does sound like some inappropriate actions did occur and she should be upset. But I will say that based on the "evidence" presented in the TC article, GitHub is not guilty of all the claims "beyond a shadow of a doubt."

rodgerd 1 day ago 2 replies      
It's good to see a straight-up apology, not a mealy-mouthed "I'm sorry if our engineer's sexual harrassment offended you" type response.

Of course, it would have been better if Julie had felt like she could have taken this up while she still worked there and got something done at the time.

minimaxir 1 day ago 3 replies      
This is the best possible response GitHub could have done given the circumstances.
macspoofing 1 day ago 2 replies      
Usually there are two sides of the story, but the fact that a non-employee (wife of co-founder) exercised so much power and meddled in internal office politics in the way that she did, it was hard to see how GitHub could even claim a reasonable stance. They screwed this up big time. This is a good response.
duncan_bayne 1 day ago 2 replies      
Awesome response from GitHub. Professional response, apologises and thanks the complainant rather than being defensive ... I think their new HR hire in January is already paying dividends ;)
almightygod 1 day ago 2 replies      
This whole incident is sad. It's incredibly sad for Julie, for everyone at GitHub, for the founders, and for the alleged "crazy" founder wife who was banned from a company she probably sacrificed a lot for
leccine 1 day ago 17 replies      
Well Julie's story stinks. Let me just quote the last thigs she wrote and work backwards from that.

"Two women, one of whom I work with and adore, and a friend of hers were hula hooping to some music. I didnt have a problem with this. What I did have a problem with is the line of men sitting on one bench facing the hoopers and gawking at them. It looked like something out of a strip club. When I brought this up to male coworkers, they didnt see a problem with it. But for me it felt unsafe and to be honest, really embarrassing. That was the moment I decided to finally leave GitHub."

For me, two adult individual can do whatever the hack they want to do, if it is legal and they are both consent of doing it. Julie seems like really pissed that other people just can have fun the way she does not like. This sounds like a huge frustration in her towards others with different standards. This last event seems like triggered her outrage, and that is also a sign that she might exaggerate what was really going in Github. Don't get me wrong, as part of a small minority I totally understand what oppression means at a workplace, but these accusations seem a bit irrational.

linuxhansl 21 hours ago 1 reply      
I wish we could stop this.

Women in software is an important topic. This specific issue on the other hand is just a he-said-she-said soap opera.

Nobody but the folks directly involved here know what really happened. Everything else is useless.

bdcravens 1 day ago 5 replies      
The founders wife discussed in the media reports has never had hiring or firing power at GitHub and will no longer be permitted in the office.

The fact that she was married to someone who did have hiring or firing power and WAS permitted in the office means she DID have (defacto) hiring or firing power.

I wonder what the ramifications are, legal-wise? Obviously the founder could be sued, especially if he was allowing someone who wasn't an employee to harass. I suspect A16Z will waste no time putting distance between themselves and the (allegedly) guilty founder. In the end, this wife's jealousy could end up costing her family 10s or 100s of millions of dollars.

duked 1 day ago 1 reply      
I wasn't aware of the whole story. Here is the link to better understand the context: http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/15/julie-ann-horvath-describes...
jw2013 1 day ago 3 replies      
"the relevant founder has been put on leave... The founders wife... will no longer be permitted in the office."

Almost exactly what I expected. As the startup grows larger (200+ employees now for Github?) it's not uncommon to have some cultural setback. +1 for Github trying to fix it asap, but still Chris Wanstrath did not mention how are they exactly going to fix the culture. Putting founder on leave is by no means panacea. The behavior on that one founder is very likely not the cause for the wrong culture, but just the side effect. So more specific plans INSIDE the company, please? (well, actually I think fixing the culture can't be done by any plan, but it must be done by example of founders/high-level executives.)

gdilla 1 day ago 2 replies      
That non-employee spouses are allowed on company property to the extent that the CEO has to acknowledge it (and put an end to it) smacks of an unprofessional environment. Ugh.
peterjancelis 1 day ago 3 replies      
They are lucky it's not the CEO-founder. Easier to put a non-CEO on leave than a CEO I imagine.
krick 16 hours ago 0 replies      
The sad thing is that however the real story may have nothing to do with sexism, but as it's presented as "sexism story" and "protecting other women", the people who will probably suffer the most after that story are that very women. It would be pretty natural for many HRs to remember that story as "possible hazard" and ceteris paribus reject the female candidate.
ketralnis 22 hours ago 1 reply      
I don't see how this is any of our business. Is HN a gossip rag? Because otherwise this is just two indirect blobs of hearsay directed at each other.
avenger123 15 hours ago 0 replies      
I am just reading about all this now.

First of all, the main theme that resonates with me is that no company is immune to these things no matter how much "special" or "different" they are.

At this point, I don't completely accept everything Horvath is saying nor do I believe what she is saying is all lies. The truth as is always the case is never black and white. What I do accept is that there is definitely serious issues that need to be taken a look at that have been brought up.

Github did not need to respond and I believe they responded quite well. There response cannot be point by point rebuttal or a statement of denial.

It's a measured response stating that they are taking action to look into the issues. Putting a founder on leave is a major decision and sends the message to Github's employees and the rest of the community that they are taking this seriously. My takeaway from the response was recognition that Horvath's assertions are with weight and they will not shy away from investigation.

There is no doubt that Horvath's assertions have made Github deal with this. Having a founder be involved would likely have swept all of this under the rug.

I commend Horath's for speaking out. I am certain it wasn't an easy decision and very painful.

I also commend Github for having the CEO write this response instead of hiding behind a shield of legalese.

I do believe something will come out from this for the positive. There are too many great people within Github that do not need to be there that will now have an opportunity to take a reality check and assess for themselves Horvath's claims and drive for change.

The founder may be the most in the hot seat. Github may use this as the "last straw" of many straws that may have been already bulging at the camel's back to exit the founder.

jordanb 22 hours ago 0 replies      
In github's defense, that rug really tied the room together.
peterwwillis 22 hours ago 0 replies      
Please - I would like to ask all the commenters to respect the privacy and feelings of all the people affected, their loved ones, and friends. The only productive or good thing you can do is express sympathy for the victims and hope they reach an amicable resolution.

Most of you probably have no idea how some thoughtless comments on a forum can cause grief, pain and fear to intensify. Making hurtful comments, making assumptions, and taking sides does nothing to help anyone involved. It can only hurt someone, and is completely unnecessary (other than for sating a debased wish to feed on the suffering of others). Whatever happens does not concern you and will not be affected by you in any positive way.

So, pretty please, for the sake of all the people who are directly and indirectly affected by this story, STOP. SPECULATING.

allochthon 23 hours ago 1 reply      
I do not consider the article in TechCrunch to have presented a balanced description of the matter. I will withhold any judgment until Github have carried out an investigation. I will not presume the founder in question, his wife or the other employee to be guilty of the allegations against them until we have more information. I hope Github will be fair and impartial in their investigation.
sergiotapia 1 day ago 2 replies      
Him mentioning the cofounder's wife immediately gives credibility to Julie's claims! I hope she get's paid! The workplace should be professional, not a schoolyard.
mcv 19 hours ago 0 replies      
This is a great apology, and goes a long way to restore my shattered faith in github.

No denying or spinning what happened, no victim blaming; just "we fucked up, we're going to do everything we can to fix it, and Julie is great". That's all I expect. Own up, fix the problem, and protect the victim.

avoutthere 23 hours ago 5 replies      
Ms. Horvath's act of taking this directly to the press was obviously intended to inflict the maximum possible harm on Github and is, in itself, unprofessional and harms her credibility. The right way for her to have handled this would have been to document everything, and then resign and sue them without fanfare. Nobody wins when dirty laundry is aired.
chromejs10 1 day ago 0 replies      
It's really sad for this to have happened, but respect to Chris Wanstrath for his classy and sincere apology.
n1ghtmare_ 21 hours ago 1 reply      
Honestly If all of this is true, then obviously what happened is wrong, but I don't really see the sexism in this whole thing. Is it the houla-hoops thingy ? Because I gotta tell you if 2 dudes start doing houla-hoops where I work everybody will stop and watch ... Just because it's ... I dunno weird ? funny ? unusual ? Am I missing something ?
Exenith 22 hours ago 0 replies      
I try to avoid these topics, but it's almost sad to see how easily you've all rushed to her side. It seems the magic word of the 2010s is "sexism": utter that word, and people will defend you no matter how little evidence there is, no matter how full of shit you are -- assuming, of course, you are a female.

Is what she described accurate? Maybe so, maybe not. No one fucking knows, and that is the point. Stop being assholes about it until someone, if anyone, has been proven to have done wrong. It's not uncommon for someone to feel sourgrapes about a situation and use "sexism" as a way to manipulate it in their favor. Most of you act like that isn't even a fucking possibility.

wcummings 1 day ago 1 reply      
If what she said is half true, the engineer in question should absolutely be fired. I would fire him.
nirnira 23 hours ago 0 replies      
100% correct form from the media team at Andreesen Horowitz... er, I mean Github.
logicchains 1 day ago 0 replies      
If Horvath's characterisations of the founder's wife are correct, then she seems somewhat similar in temperament to Lady McBeth. It's easy to see why his work is considered timeless.
cpks 15 hours ago 0 replies      
This is a textbook response to a harassment issue. It is extremely professional. You put the accused on paid leave. You do not fire them. If the accuser is correct, this prevents further damage. If the accuser is incorrect, this prevents permanent damage to the accused.

You contact a full internal investigation, and you do not issue any statements biased either way until you have full information from that investigation. At the end of the investigation, you either bring back the accused employees if they appear innocent, or lay them off if they appear guilty.

This is absolutely the right thing to do. I understand the Internet would like companies to go in with pitchforks before investigating. That is wrong. In the majority of discrimination cases, the accuser is wrong (for example, the accused is an equal-opportunity-asshole, but the accuser feels targeted). When the accuser is right, you want to know the level and details before acting in any irreversible way (and a public statement, aside from potentially being libel, is irreversible).

The Internet's attention span is the Internet's problem -- not github's.

stevenelliottjr 1 day ago 2 replies      
Pretty ridiculous, I'm sure she'll land on her feet but these startup cultures are a disaster. Hula hoops? No clear management of any kind? I'm all for freedom of expression and all that but try and act like an adult for once in your life and put the hula hoops down.
leothekim 1 day ago 5 replies      
Now, what does "put on leave" mean? Is that "suspended with pay"? "Stay low until the dust settles"? Or, "terminated after further review"?
learningram 18 hours ago 0 replies      
I think there is whole chunk of story missing.. Some context/information is missing from her allegations. The wife's behavior doesn't make sense.

Too many red flags in Julie's version. But I will wait for the complete story.

laureny 1 day ago 24 replies      
> We know we have to take action and have begun a full investigation. While thats ongoing, and effective immediately, the relevant founder has been put on leave, as has the referenced GitHub engineer.

Pretty much a full admission that everything that Julie said is true.

This is great news, but putting these people on leave seems to be too nice. It's clear that these two people obey ethics that are in direct oppposition to the healthy growth of the company. Surely they don't want them back?

> The founders wife discussed in the media reports has never had hiring or firing power at GitHub and will no longer be permitted in the office.

Why did it take a Techcrunch article to reach this decision? Didn't anyone at Github see anything wrong with that founder's wife doing what she did, according to Julie's statement?

> GitHub has grown incredibly fast over the past two years, bringing a new set of challenges. Nearly a year ago we began a search for an experienced HR Lead and that person came on board in January 2014

Doesn't appear so. They did get an HR person, but an experienced one? Not a chance. No experienced HR person would have let any of that get as far as it got. That HR person should probably be put on leave or be fired as well.

> Chris Wanstrath>> CEO & Co-Founder

This narrows down the choices: the "founder" who is the cause for all this drama is either PJ Hyett or Tom Preston-Werner.

btilly 23 hours ago 0 replies      
One of her claims was that she was told that the founder's wife had ALREADY been told not to enter the building.

Unless we see confirmation that it has actually happened, I'm not going to believe it. Statements are easy. That's just damage control. We need to see the actual action.

I predict that the founder in question stays away for a month or so, and then is exonerated and let back in.

balls187 23 hours ago 0 replies      
Don't know what to make of this.

The founder getting his wife involved made a serious mistake. Agreed with most everyone else here, the CEO made the right call.

I'm now trying to understand though, what precipitated this whole mess. Julie talks about github as a "boys-club" culture and that her character was under attack in pull requests and issues, but doesn't give any more details.

Julie talks about passive aggressive behavior from a coworker, but this was while her ordeal with one of the founders was going on.

So what triggered this collapse?

TheCondor 15 hours ago 1 reply      
I'm going to sound *ist... You know how this is solved? Seriously? If you are abused, violated, made to feel uncomfortable, intimidated, etc... Write it down, gather evidence, gather some witnesses and then hire a lawyer and start suing. Go after the vc if it's a start up and the founders are involved... That's how we got seat belts...

I just don't see much good coming from putting this in the open like this. Sue them then do the book deal or tc article

klrr 21 hours ago 0 replies      
Is bullying legal in this particular state? If so I don't get why Julia didn't reported it to the police when it all started.
happywolf 23 hours ago 0 replies      
Here is an article that I found on TechCrunch. Posting the link here just for sharing. No, I am still trying to make out what is happening, so I hold no opinion for now.


joyeuse6701 20 hours ago 1 reply      
This validates a lot of things without explicitly doing so. Why put the engineer in question on leave, and the wife and the founder and mentioning it in this apology? Makes no sense unless it was because of what happened. That isn't to say that what Julie said happened did, but there is an ounce of credibility there. Depending on how this resolves, I may (likely) take my business elsewhere.
meistro 1 day ago 1 reply      
This is leadership. Executive leadership at other tech companies should take note.
trhway 1 day ago 1 reply      
as one if the most important corrective actions, Github needs to bring back cubicles or better even offices, so that a lot of the "increased collaboration and communication" between Julie and the founder's wife ( like when the wife would sit near Julie and stare at her) just wouldn't be able to happen.

edit: another thing that would help - it is to have some older, like in the their 40s, people in the workforce. I mean it may be useful to have old farts like us, who've been through sterile no-harassment environment of BigCo's, and who would be able to spot inappropriate behavior even from a couple floors away, and whose mere presence would calm the hormones at least a couple notches down :)

Cacti 21 hours ago 0 replies      
What a fucking circle jerk.
patomolina 23 hours ago 0 replies      
The attitude adopted by the HR department on this matter reminded me of this: http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-11-26/

It's good to see that things are changing in GH.

logicchains 23 hours ago 0 replies      
Does Horvath's characterisation of the founder's wife remind anyone else of Lady MacBeth? The situation seems suitably dramatic for it.
joeblau 20 hours ago 0 replies      
One of the things I'm very curious about is what effect this will have on GitHub's culture as a whole. I've been in a startups where one of my colleagues triggered events that slowly began transforming our startup culture into more of a corporate culture.
bakhy 19 hours ago 1 reply      
a very nice apology, but it cannot be enough. i hope some specific action will be taken. but somehow, i am doubtful.

it is relatively easy to apologize, and say "we will investigate". but, how does something like this happen, if it did happen, without people knowing? Ms Horvath stated she raised the issue, yet it took a public scandal to actually issue a "we will investigate" statement?

at the very least, IMO, GitHub must get rid of the problematic co-founder.

fmitchell0 1 day ago 1 reply      
i guess no one sees the irony that validation in their mind comes in the form of the co-founder 'owning up'.

if he had been silent or refuted the statements (maybe on advice from their lawyers), would that undermine Julie's credibility?

if so, why?

Sindrome 23 hours ago 2 replies      
Female developers are not special.
hanxue 1 day ago 0 replies      
Awesome response
JeremyMorgan 1 day ago 4 replies      
Well that pretty much confirms what Julie said was true. Kudos to GitHub for not trying to sweep things under the rug.
att159 1 day ago 3 replies      
Who is the "relevant GitHub engineer"? The one Horvath rejected?
smtddr 23 hours ago 0 replies      
This is the best response that could have ever been made, ever.
h1karu 1 day ago 3 replies      
Julie was banging a co-worker so why is she acting surprised when drama happened ? I don't get it.
cincinnatus 1 day ago 1 reply      
Probably couldn't say til they finish looking into the details and some dust settles. Otherwise, solid apology, good on them.
Gravity waves from Big Bang detected scientificamerican.com
642 points by tjaerv  12 hours ago   122 comments top 23
DangerousPie 11 hours ago 9 replies      
They made a nice video of the researcher surprising Prof Linde with the news:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlfIVEy_YOA

The reaction of the couple is great!

Tarrosion 11 hours ago 7 replies      
As an outsider (PhD student in a quantitative field, no relation to physics), the experimental physics community really strikes me as a class act. High standards for statistical significance, vigorously working to rule out mundane explanations before publishing data, outlining which statistical tests will be performed before data is collected...I'm a fan.

"In fact, the researchers were so startled to see such a blaring signal in the data that they held off on publishing it for more than a year, looking for all possible alternative explanations for the pattern they found." That's pretty amazing; as far as I can tell, such caution is less typical in e.g. the brain sciences.

swatkat 11 hours ago 0 replies      
Guardian has a nice and simple article explaining gravity, gravitational wave, and about this detection:


sanxiyn 11 hours ago 0 replies      
From the horse's mouth: http://bicepkeck.org/
slacka 9 hours ago 5 replies      
So just to clarify, this is only the measurement of an artifact most likely caused by gravity waves during the period of inflation. We still have not directly measured gravity waves in our current universe, right? I think the fact that gravity can't be measured is a subtle clue about one piece of the puzzle for a unifying theory of everything.
sixothree 11 hours ago 1 reply      
Nothing bugs me more than when a supposedly scientific magazine uses thumbnails of important images without actually linking to the full size. I just wanted to see the black lines in the image the article refers to.
yukichan 10 hours ago 2 replies      
> The finding is direct proof of the theory of inflation, the idea that the universe expanded extremely quickly in the first fraction of a second after it was born.

Small nitpick, but wouldn't the use of the words "evidence for" instead of "proof of" have been better? Not that I am in any way trying to take anything away from the discovery. Just from a science perspective, the word "proof" has always bugged me.

piratebroadcast 10 hours ago 2 replies      
I'm very curious of how, if we now presume this to be true, if and how that may effect the "Are we living in a simulation?" question.
sosuke 12 hours ago 4 replies      
Is gravity a wave then, like light? I thought the jury was still out on that.
encoderer 9 hours ago 0 replies      
Reminds me of the way Einstein, not being an experimental physicist himself, would conclude his famous papers with suggestions for experiments to confirm them. Awesome for this research team to have the opportunity to confirm this discovery in Linde's lifetime.
wozniacki 12 hours ago 1 reply      
Here's an excellent explanation on cosmic inflation from Sean Carroll:


yeukhon 7 hours ago 1 reply      
Is this the same as graviton in string theory? Or could this be used to further justify the existence of graviton?
AnimalMuppet 11 hours ago 1 reply      
> This pattern, basically a curling in the polarization, or orientation, of the light, can be created only by gravitational waves produced by inflation.

I call BS. "Within our current theories, this pattern can be created only by..." would be a more accurate statement. The arrogance that "with this theory, we understand it all" has been shot down over and over in the history of science.

[Edit: tarrosion noted the caution of experimenters in making sure that the data could not be caused by something else. This is appropriate, and it's good that they have it. You now have one, and only one, theoretical explanation for the data. But the statement in the article that I quoted is still a step too far. It presumes that our existing theories are the only possible ones.]

estebanrules 11 hours ago 1 reply      
How would you folks rate the significance of this, let's say as far as scientific discoveries / realizations go in the last 100 years? Yes, of course this is completely subjective. I would say in the top three.
watson 9 hours ago 0 replies      
Another HN post from earlier today about the same discovery: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7411341
platz 10 hours ago 2 replies      
Interesting that they succeeded in detecting gravity waves where LIGO failed?
cellover 8 hours ago 0 replies      
This page allowed me to have an idea of the concepts underlying this discovery (CMB light, B-mode polarization):http://cosmology.berkeley.edu/~yuki/CMBpol/CMBpol.htm
philip1209 10 hours ago 1 reply      
They have evidence of gravity waves, but cannot prove causation (i.e. big bang), right?
3327 10 hours ago 0 replies      
Just 5 sigma confidence...
kimonos 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Interesting info! Thanks for sharing!
namelezz 8 hours ago 0 replies      
notastartup 7 hours ago 0 replies      
can someone explain the significance of this, for those that are not familiar with this area?
OOvsuOO 9 hours ago 2 replies      
Wow.. that's sweet but really come on only supporting mavericks OS. And already.. if you have a iPad the notes app automatically synchronizes with the mail server (I use web based email service mostly.) I didn't even set it up or should I say allow the iPad to do so.
Worse marco.org
623 points by shawndumas  2 days ago   277 comments top 75
tptacek 2 days ago 15 replies      
As an aside: for me, Amazon Instant Video is _much_ better than Netflix Streaming. I pay for both (Amazon unintentionally, because I bought Prime for the shipping), watch both on a PS3, and spend 2x the amount of time in Amazon as I do in Netflix.

Apart from the free catalogs, which are comparable between the two services, Amazon also has an enormous paid streaming catalog. Like most nerds, the value of an hour of my time is such that even thinking about the price of paid streaming content is a waste of time, so Amazon's paid streaming catalog is a great win for me; 9 times out of 10, whatever I want to watch, I can get through Amazon.

Amazon also does a better job of maintaining my library of past purchases and my wishlist than either of Netflix or iTunes.

I didn't buy Prime to get the videos, but the videos aren't s small feature. Amazon executes streaming content as well as anyone else, and if you haven't checked them out (because you use Netflix, for instance) you should.

Also: I don't think streaming media is at all out of place in Amazon's core offering. They started with books. Then digital media, just like Borders did. Then "everything else", which is what people seem to think of Amazon as now --- the Walmart of the Web. But: then Kindle (consolidating their reach into content), then streaming media, then publishing.

It doesn't seem at all weird to me that the Internet's largest retailer of paid content would have a streaming media service; online content delivery would otherwise obsolete one of their original offerings.

nostromo 2 days ago 8 replies      
I think Amazon needs to get into the delivery business soon.

Planet Money (an NPR show) created a t-shirt for fans and broke down the cost of each shirt. The biggest line item was shipping the finished shirts to customers.


Out of the total cost of $12.42, it cost $2.26 to ship. It cost $1.04 to accept payments. Compare these costs with the actual cost of the product: $0.60 for the cotton, $0.40 to spin the cotton into yarn, $1.00 for sewing.

It seems unlikely that Amazon as it exists today will ever rival Walmart in volume and price since they avoid these last-mile delivery costs.

Amazon should take on FedEx and UPS and try to disrupt the industry one key city at a time. They've already started delivering groceries in Seattle, so perhaps that's the first step to Amazon Delivery Service.

mikeash 2 days ago 2 replies      
This is the key to the entire article:

"Theres nowhere to go. Amazon has either destroyed or bought every competitor that has ever come close to its retail business."

Without this, nothing else matters. If there are alternatives, then you keep using Amazon and Prime only if they're worth it. If Amazon ruins them, go somewhere else.

Personally, I think it's completely wrong. I buy on Amazon because it's extremely convenient and because I can be pretty sure that they're going to offer a good price, likely the cheapest price available.

However, any time I make a purchase that's more than $30 or so, I shop around. There is no shortage of other places to buy anything I've looked for. They usually have higher prices or worse service than Amazon and so I skip them. Occasionally they're better, and then I buy from them.

There's no lock-in, there's no monopoly, there's nothing that makes people stick with Amazon besides better prices, better service, and inertia.

If you don't like it, go somewhere else. It pains me to say this because that phrase is so overused, but it applies to Amazon well.

bunkat 2 days ago 8 replies      
I feel like I must be the odd one here. My wife and I watch free Amazon Prime videos (i.e. bundled with the Prime service, I know nothing is actually free!) all the time. The selection is decent enough for us and they have lots of free television series that keep us busy. Between that and shipping that usually gets things here the next day, Amazon Prime is worth every penny to us.
chipotle_coyote 1 day ago 0 replies      
The entire larger point of the post seems to be being missed, which isn't specifically about Amazon Prime at all. The point is that the big players in the online services space are competing in a "my way or the highway" fashion that ends up making everything a little worse.

You may not agree with Arment's take on Amazon Instant Video -- personally, I'm a Prime customer but haven't been interested in Amazon's video service because it seemed to mostly overlap with Netflix and because until fairly recently getting it on my TV was more of a pain than I was willing to put up with, because I have an Apple TV and Amazon and Apple wouldn't cross the street to piss on each other if they were on fire. But Google Maps is no longer used for iOS's native map program in large part because Google wanted access to iOS customers Apple didn't want to give, and because of that iOS native maps are worse (and Google lost tens of millions of map users). Google is making all their services a little worse by trying to tie everything up with Google+. Amazon's refusal to support EPUB makes my Kindle a little worse. And so on and so on.

HN readers seem to engage in a lot of debate over whether Google and Amazon are "better" than Apple when it comes to ecosystem lock-in. But all of those services only work with approved devices using approved players with approved content. What you're arguing about is the size of the cage you're in.

B-Con 2 days ago 0 replies      
> They want to lock everyone into everything. Just like everyone else. And were all worse off for it.

I really like Schneier's commentary on how large companies are migrating toward a feudal system[1]. His perspective is from security, but the central point is universal.

[1]: http://www.wired.com/opinion/2012/11/feudal-security/

codeulike 2 days ago 1 reply      
This article is not about Amazon Prime particularly, its about this quote:

They want to lock everyone into everything. Just like everyone else. And were all worse off for it.

Thats the core of the problem. Current monetisation models are based on lock in and annoying ads, and no decent alternative models seem to be on the horizon.

state 2 days ago 0 replies      
I love to think of all of these things as opportunities. Giants are staggering around, losing focus and getting in to petty fights. Isn't that the perfect time for new things? How exciting.
dustcoin 2 days ago 1 reply      
I didn't see any mention of inflation. $79 in 2005 when prime was launched is equivalent to $96 today.
thatthatis 2 days ago 2 replies      
I've been a prime customer for 7 ish years. I'm ok with the new price. Im extremely happy with the service, appreciate a lot of the new features (instant video, lending library), and overall Im not off put by tweaks like add ons that make the service more economically efficient and thus viable.

I get way more than $100 worth of simplicity from being a member of prime.

My only complaint: create an instant video app for android already.

ErrantX 2 days ago 1 reply      
Prime has hiked in price here in the UK too, with the bundled video.


It's still worth it here IMO. In fact, Prime here in the UK is about a million lightyears ahead of the US because of the size of the country :)

Free next day shipping is really brilliant for a heavy Amazon buyer like me.

I was actually a Lovefilm user from before the Amazon buyout. I fondly remember the day they were primarily a physical rental service - the warehouse was not far from me and the postal service fantastic. Their catalogue was huge.

Their online service has always been mediocre; about the same as Netflix, Sky and BT.

But the combination of on-demand video and free next day is still worth it to me.

After some research, IMO the combination of Sky (satellite TV with on-demand offering) and Amazon Prime (free next day delivery + on-demand video) is the best combination of price & coverage. I can get 99.9% of the things I want for reasonable price.

Looking at the US service, it doesn't even compare :(

georgemcbay 2 days ago 1 reply      
Amazon could raise the price of Prime by 2x and I would still keep it. I buy so much shit through Amazon. I kinda wish I could spread my dollars out among more online retailers, but Amazon and Newegg are the only ones (based on lots of experience) who I can trust on the shipping front. If they say the package is going to be there on day XYZ, there is a 99.999% chance (in my experience) of it appearing on day XYZ. Of course this only applies when bought from them directly (or if 'fulfilled by Amazon', I try to avoid the 3rd party sellers who don't fulfill through Amazon as much as any other store I can't trust to get shipping right).

Every other retailer I've dealt with online will do stupid shit like allow me to pay for 2 day shipping and then send the package out 3 days after I order it.

Nail completely consistent and predictable shipping and I might buy stuff from you, otherwise you're at best 4th in line behind Amazon, Newegg and every brick and mortar store within 20 miles.

EGreg 2 days ago 2 replies      
Disagree completely with the fearmongering.

"Its shipping deals always felt unsustainable, so in the absence of other changes, Id feel that the extra $20 per year was justified."

So what exactly is the problem being decried? Amazon increases the cost of a "free shipping" plan that was previously seemed unsustainable.

Oh, and Amazon bundles free videos with Prime as it wants to get into the media delivery business ruled by Netflix and make it cheaper. It already doss this with books but now wants to enter the game to challenge Google's Play and Apple's iTunes Store. This is MORE competition in the mobile OS + media delivery space. Let Amazon enter it. It already has one of the most sophisticated infrastructures in the world, with AWS - which by the way is its biggest revenue center.

If you want to be concerned about anything, be concerned about the effect these economies of scale will have on the American worker. With self driving cars from google and packing robots from Amazon and giant data centers from Apple, who will need record stores, bookstores, newspapers, cab drivers, oh wait..

res0nat0r 2 days ago 2 replies      
Meh. Of course this is "worse", it isn't something from the Gods Who Are Named Apple.

> Amazon announced this week that its increasing the price of Amazon Prime from $80 to $100 per year, its first price change since its introduction in 2005.

> This has not been a popular decision, to put it lightly, but most Prime customers which Ive been since 2005 arent really going anywhere. Theres nowhere to go. Amazon has either destroyed or bought every competitor that has ever come close to its retail business.

This sounds redundant. There is complaining about lack of competition, yet you still keep using the service (and are part of destroying that competition by using Amazon).

The addon program has added items which would have never been on the site previously, so that is a win, I'm sure other items which just can't be shipped by themselves cost effectively have been removed, but times change. Streaming videos are also an addition that are a win for those who use it. Also your bill is going up from $6.66 a month (the cost of one beer) to $8.33 (the cost of 1.5 beers) a month for streaming video and 2 day shipping on tons of items, I don't see a ton to complain about. I'm surprise the price hasn't been jacked up years ago just due to increasing shipping costs across the board.

brwnll 2 days ago 2 replies      
Marco is using a complete straw man here He takes a optional add on service (Amazon Prime) which a company offers value to its "its most dedicated customers". Then he compares it to other companies require of you to use their service.

You are in no way required to have Amazon Prime to use Amazon. If it doesn't make sense to you, then cancel it. Amazon is still happy to have you as a customer without it.

It feels like people are complaining they bought a car, asked for the sunroof option, and now are loudly complaining that cars shouldn't have sunroofs.

jusben1369 2 days ago 0 replies      
And this year's Academy Award for Best First World Problems Post goes to................

Seriously, all of these companies compete for their customers. They're going to try and optimize their offerings to keep their customers. Sometimes they'll do a good job - like iMessage meaning no texting costs and locking people into the platform. Sometimes they'll do a sucky job, like Google + accounts. Half the time they'll be doing both simultaneously (iMessage and Maps) Those that irritate their customers over the long run will.......surprise surprise.....drive them to the better competitor platform.

Both ways uphill in a snowstorm.

cbsmith 2 days ago 0 replies      
I feel in general there are some things getting muddled together that probably shouldn't.

First, you have free services that are using various forms of the walled garden model to generate revenue. That's hardly surprising, new, and really anything worth complaining about. If you don't like it, go use that highly successful paid service that doesn't have the ad revenue. Oh wait...

Then there is the thread about bundling all of Amazon's services through Prime. Prime is clearly a play to leverage all of Amazon's services in to one big compelling service. Since Amazon still provides their services at competitive rates without Prime, I'm not sure how anyone can gripe about this.

Finally, there is the issue of Prime's price going up. I don't think it has anything to do with bundling other services, and everything to do with the program a) being successful (and you see this in competitors adopting similar services) and b) suffering from increased costs everywhere else. Guess what? No matter how much software, and the reverse inflation that comes with it, eats the world, the rest of the world still suffers from the usual challenges of increasing costs. In 2005, when Prime was launched, the price of first class mail has increased 32.4%, which is actually more than the 25% increase in Prime. Maybe there is no sinister agenda....

hristov 2 days ago 0 replies      
I have tried amazon instant video. People keep saying they love netflix, but netflix has a huge problem - they keep losing content all the time. So I used Amazon instant video to watch a show that i started watching on netflix and which disappeared from netflix soon thereafter.

Amazon instant video is ok once you start watching, but their software is pretty bad and much much worse than netflix. Both amazon and netflix have to spread their software on many devices (such as computers, tablets, tv's and dozens of settop streaming devices) but it seems to me on every single device i have tried the amazon software is really annoying.

I think a big part of the problem is that they are trying to sell both free instant video and their paid service.

Kequc 1 day ago 1 reply      
Fair points aside I want to know why people still harp on Google+ at this point.

> Google, the geek worlds undeserved, unquestioned darling for well over a decade, has made all of its core products worse by forcefully shoving Google+ into them.

This sentiment is so frustrating to me. Yes, Google introduced an identity service so they no longer needed to tie everything to one of your Gmail accounts. This means you can now link your Gmail accounts together, this development is fantastic.

Along with it comes bundled a really good social network application. Which, hello everyone, don't use it if you don't want it. Allowing everyone with Google accounts to talk to each other in a social medium and aggregate content relevant to their interests. Youtube integration was arguably a detriment to Google+ because it caused an influx of terrible content from late Google+ adopters.

Youtube is a social product, Google+ was a newer much more powerful social product. Google had two social products so it merged them together. Inarguably (at least I don't see how you could argue) improving Youtube.

What is an example of Google+ making anything worse?

When will tech bloggers embrace Google's introduction of their identity service, they badly needed one and Google+ is amazing by any standard.

AndrewDucker 2 days ago 1 reply      
What I find frustrating is that when I go to the Amazon Video on my PS3 there doesn't seem to be a way to say "Just show me the free videos". It insists on mixing the free and paid ones.

Which is rubbish when I'm just looking to see what's available to watch.

Aoyagi 2 days ago 1 reply      
You know, when if I had problems like that, I would show my discontent with the only meaningful way: I'd stop using the service. Like I do it with Google (aside from Youtube, where I can't comment any more), Facebook and many other things a lot of people keep complaining about but never do the one thing that matters. STOP USING THE DAMN THING.
coldcode 2 days ago 4 replies      
Hmm all I get is an empty page. Yet another case of not being able to handle HN traffic?
glanotte 2 days ago 0 replies      
I really couldn't disagree with this post any more. While I think he raises several points that are applicable to him, none apply to me.

I have also been a prime subscriber since 2005 and it has paid for itself many times over in shipping costs alone. I have had bunk beds, computers, televisions all shipped second day for free. Rarely have I had issues, I would continue to pay for the service even if it was twice what it is now.

And I do use the streaming service quite regularly. I have not had cable for quite some time so I use streaming services for close to 50% of my at home entertainment. Of that, I think the amazon library is one of the better available.

At any rate, I have been and will hopefully continue to be a happy prime subscriber for at least another year.

SquareWheel 2 days ago 1 reply      
"This has not been a popular decision, to put it lightly"

From all the forum comments/responses I've seen, Prime customers seem just fine with it. Maybe we read different news websites?

product50 2 days ago 0 replies      
For me, I believe Netflix content is far superior to Amazon's. That doesn't prove anything.

I think the main point which Marco is trying to make it is the inflexibility I as a consumer should have over choosing what I want and pricing the products accordingly. In some ways, it is similar to the wireless carriers post paid plans (until T-Mobile and AT&T recently changed this) where you paid the same monthly bill whether you get your phone or use a contract one. Consumers do not have option to opt out and pay for the entire bundle - thus also getting a far inferior product (Amazon Instant Videos) with a far superior one (2 day shipping).

After this Prime price change and the fact that California purchases are taxed, I will not be renewing my Prime account. I have noticed that for most of my electronic/tech product shopping, I don't use Amazon anyways as I always have found things cheaper on competing sites (Adorama, Newegg, eBay or Apple). For the rest, I am fine with 4 day shipping instead of 2 day and, as Marco mentioned, for increasing number of Amazon products are now classified as Add-on products which is not cool as well..

alexeisadeski3 2 days ago 1 reply      
Adjusted for inflation, isn't

$80 in 2005 = $100 in 2014

Pretty sure it's darn near if not right on the money.

eli 1 day ago 0 replies      
"But I suspect the changes to overnight rates and Add-On Items would have been enough to keep Primes shipping costs sustainable, and these havent been the only changes."

That's seems extremely speculative.

RandallBrown 2 days ago 2 replies      
I buy enough stuff from amazon that I would spend way more than $100 a year on shipping anyway. Getting the free videos and kindle lending is just a nice little bonus.

It's too bad Marco hasn't watched any videos on Amazon. They have some pretty good original shows. Betas is a funny caricature of the startup life we all live. It's cheesy, but relatively accurate and at times pretty funny. Alpha House is fantastic. It's like a comedy version of House of Cards.

rwmj 2 days ago 0 replies      
You should try not being a Prime subscriber. You get the interstitials appearing on every bloody purchase.
RealGeek 2 days ago 0 replies      
I don't shop at enough Amazon to make prime shipping economically beneficial to me. In most cases free ground shipping is alright, and occasionally paying for 2 day shipping works out to be cheaper than $100 per year.

I bought prime subscription anyway; not for shipping but for Amazon Instant Video. I won't be renewing it because Amazon Instant Video has been disappointing so far. There isn't enough content on Amazon Prime. Worse part, their Xbox app plays video in 360p resolution.

I had similar experience with Netflix as well. Even after paying for several on-demand Video services, I have to use Torrents. Torrents offer the most convenience, it has the largest content library, best video quality and no stupid DRM & restrictions.

noonat 1 day ago 0 replies      
I see arguments about whether or not Amazon Instant Video is worth the money, but I think that's beside the point, isn't it? The important part of the discussion here is that Amazon Instant Video is not of interest to a large number of existing Amazon Prime subscribers, and they are likely paying the price for those who use it.

It's a bit of a frustrating trend to see companies bundling new technologies like this, often at the expense of their loyal customers. I am an Amazon Prime subscriber, and will continue to be one, but I would love it if Amazon Instant video were a separate subscription that I could choose to pay for on its own merits.

ahi 2 days ago 0 replies      
Many times on amazon i have found the same products from their marketplace vendors that cost the same with shipping as the prime product with "free shipping". With the exception of books which nobody can compete with on price, and large expensive to ship items, prime isnt a veey good deal.
Spooky23 2 days ago 0 replies      
I think the key assumption here that is wrong is that Amazon is this amazing retail outlet that you just need to use.

I disagree, as someone who has been a huge customer.

Why? Amazon prices suck, and have gotten increasingly less competitive over the years. The huge 3rd party vendor market on Amazon makes it very difficult to identify product that you want to. It on many cases as well.

The whole premise of Amazon Prime was to push the uncertainty of shipping time out of online shopping out of the purchase equation. That experience is both being watered down and made more expensive. If they don't deliver on the premise/promise, there are literally thousands of competitors for just about any product.

IMO, Amazon needs to stop patting themselves on the back and focus on the customer experience.

hotpockets 2 days ago 1 reply      
I don't know where this guy lives, but prime has only been getting better. I've never seen a next day fee greater than 3.99. Same day delivery was added not too long ago and it costs 3.99. what unbalanced bs link bait.
stugots 2 days ago 0 replies      
>Theres nowhere to go. Amazon has either destroyed or bought every competitor that has ever come close to its retail business.

There's nowhere to go because people like you gave their money to Amazon. Congratulations! Shall I cry you a river now?

abruzzi 1 day ago 0 replies      
I'm surely a rare exception. I don't buy stuff from Amazon (I might if they would tell me what carrier they were going to use before shipping. Where I live I have a different address for USPS than I do for other carriers.) But I did subscribe to Prime for the video. I'm not sure I will stick with them with the price increase, since I don't use them half as much as I use netflix.
JoeAltmaier 1 day ago 0 replies      
I approach it differently. I pay no attention to the plans, the memberships, the cards and the programs. I buy the best deal I can get on the spot.

It costs some more, but honestly I'm not talking about buying a car or a house so its 'petty cash' purchases we're talking about.

And I get my dignity back. No more struggling to satisfy some program requirements; no getting 2nd-rate tickets because of the 'miles' I think I need. I just buy what I want, and I pay for it.

SO no not a 'member' of anything. This is a 1st-world solution I know. But if you can afford it, well I recommend it.

davidedicillo 1 day ago 0 replies      
I wonder what the cost of Google Shopping Express will be. I found myself choosing GSE over Amazon several time because on smaller items is cheaper and you can't beat same day delivery.
yef 1 day ago 0 replies      
I don't think Marco knows what lock-in means. Not to mention, his concluding sentence is a string of absolutes that almost makes me think he's writing a satire of some sort.
jimhart3000 2 days ago 0 replies      
There are some areas where Amazon definitely outshines Netflix, particularly children's programming, which honestly is 80% of the streaming video my family does - Amazon has all the Nickelodeon shows, which Netflix doesn't, which is a key edge for them. We recently went back to cable after cord-cutting 5 years ago, and prime video allowed me to drop Netflix and Hulu without much disruption to our viewing.
roberjo 2 days ago 1 reply      
If I click on one more movie title in AmazonPrime Instant Video that is simply not offered in any form at all (streaming, rental, purchase, nada), I am going to cry.
Pxtl 2 days ago 0 replies      
Hope they don't do it here in Canada. With no Amazon Video service here, there already isn't much reason to buy Prime.
blinkingled 2 days ago 0 replies      
While we are talking about Amazon Prime - there still seems to be a round about way to get Prime at the old yearly rate of $79 - even if you are a currently active Prime member. See this for details - http://www.reddit.com/r/deals/comments/20ckxa/you_can_lock_i...
taude 16 hours ago 0 replies      
Marco's wrong. Weird, I know. But we use our Prime streaming all the time. It's a nice little extra.
zobzu 2 days ago 0 replies      
"They want to lock everyone into everything. Just like everyone else. And were all worse off for it."

dat. every company mankind has produced. every ruler, too. Meh.

jrockway 1 day ago 0 replies      
Hah, I think I wrote exactly the same post a couple days ago:


TrainedMonkey 2 days ago 1 reply      
Worse for whom? This is actually wonderful for amazon shareholders as it demonstrates that amazon finally started to think about generating some serious cash surplus.

All that said I have no amazon stock and I am a prime user, so I feel your pain.

hownottowrite 1 day ago 0 replies      
Ego, greed, absence (or loss) of vision... This is how products are "improved" over time.

For the most part, it's a natural result of a process driven by the demands of growth and managed by psychopaths.

taeric 2 days ago 0 replies      
I can't say that I feel at all betrayed or ill treated in the Amazon increase. Maybe I would be more annoyed if my change did not go into affect Jan of next year, but as it is, I feel I've gotten more than a fair deal out of this.

Of course, I actually use the heck out of the video service... As noted in the top thread, it really is quite nice.

vonnik 2 days ago 0 replies      
Amazon's upselling and cross-selling methods are good examples of dark patterns: design working to harm its users. http://darkpatterns.org/
Meekro 2 days ago 0 replies      
Anyone who has a .edu email address can get Amazon student, which is free for 6 months and then 50% off forever.


lnanek2 1 day ago 0 replies      
Canceled my Prime membership just now. I don't want any videos, I consider them a waste of time, so they are upping prices to make me pay for offering me a waste of time easier. Greeeeeat.
fh973 1 day ago 0 replies      
This might have an interesting product positioning aspect:

Amazon is calling the product "prime", but it is actually a way to save money. Hence, this is no premium product and there is no actual perception as a premium product by customers.

Raising prices for an actual premium product wouldn't be an issue, but it seems actual product aspects and not naming counts.

cbsmith 2 days ago 0 replies      
Pretty sure NewEgg and crew have competitive options to Amazon...
slr555 2 days ago 0 replies      
It is definitely worth noting that Amazon has a shareholder problem. Yes, they have devoured everything large and small but profit margins are razor thin. One of the most brilliant things that Jeff Bezos did was telling his early investors not to see a return for several years, but the market does and will demand returns. Given that Costco makes most of its profit on membership fees it will be interesting to see if the Prime increase is sufficient to both sustain or improve service levels and increase profitability.
nateguchi2 2 days ago 0 replies      
Personally, I find that eBay (at least in the UK) has proven itself to have the best shipping, selection, service and price. Especially with it's new "Fast and free" promotion
DodgyEggplant 2 days ago 0 replies      
That's why the most common financial board game is called "Monopoly"
yukichan 2 days ago 0 replies      
> because Amazon bundled in a video service nobody wants since 2011

I like Amazon video quite a bit actually.

gress 2 days ago 4 replies      
whilst it's true that Apple maps is not as good as Google maps yet, especially outside the US, it strikes me as the odd one out here.

Apple wanted to make maps better but couldn't do so with Google as the supplier without making unacceptable privacy compromises.

The current state is temporarily worse, but only because their supplier was uncooperative.

adventured 2 days ago 0 replies      
"Showing this once is bad enough, but I see it regularly. Amazon is now annoying their best customers with desperate, obnoxious, tricky interstitial ads. (Of course, the checkbox is checked by default.)"

Email Bezos. He takes this sort of thing very seriously, assuming you can present a rational argument. He won't reply directly, but he will see it. Jeff@

itsnotvalid 2 days ago 0 replies      
Just take a look at China with multiples of these. Many companies are using their influence to attack smaller companies and there is virtually no antitrust laws.
gcb0 2 days ago 0 replies      
Most civilized countries it is illegal to force one product with another. "married sale"
jbinto 2 days ago 2 replies      
As a Canadian Amazon customer, I'm used to this second class treatment.

With a fraction of the inventory, no "addon items", no access to Prime Instant Video or Kindle Lending Library, there's absolutely no reason for Amazon.ca customers to subscribe to Prime, even at $79.

LukeB_UK 2 days ago 0 replies      
Just getting a blank page. Google cache here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%...
ribs 2 days ago 0 replies      
Waste of my time. Little insight. Hyperbole.
efremjw 2 days ago 0 replies      
so don't pay for it you moron
amjaeger 2 days ago 0 replies      
Amazon Prime instant video has Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, who could ask for more?
zygotic12 2 days ago 0 replies      
It's the end of the world I tell ya'll. Try using the inter web thingy.
tuke 2 days ago 0 replies      
Apparently I can only stream "The Americans" from Amazon. So there. (Would love to be told differently; and I don't steal media.)
mindcrime 2 days ago 0 replies      
I mostly agree with the OP here, but I will say this: Prime Instant Video was the main reason I actually finally signed up for Prime. The shipping part is nice, but I don't actually order that much physical "stuff" from Amazon.

With the price increase, I'm not sure if I'll stay a Prime member or not though. I do use Prime Video, but I'm not sure I use it enough to justify this price.

untilHellbanned 1 day ago 0 replies      
wow 258+ comments on so much minutiae. we are lame.
scottjad 2 days ago 7 replies      
What's with this stupid title where you have to read the thing to have any clue what it is about?

Imagine if the front page were full with these kind of titles. We might as well change the titles to random numbers.

The last post by this guy that I remember, and the second to last one to do well on the frontpage (perhaps explaining the current behavior), was titled "Off". Can you get any more vague?

In that post all he said about anything being off was "The presenting executives seemed a bit off, too."

My prediction is that before long he'll have a post at the top of Hacker News titled "And" where he ends it with "And that's what I think."

ksikka 2 days ago 4 replies      
Why don't you start better companies? Show them wrong. Don't just sit at your laptop, complain about how bad all these popular, massively used services are. If you don't like it, leave and make it better.
Popcorn Time Is So Good at Movie Piracy, Its Scary time.com
587 points by caio1982  7 days ago   410 comments top 57
kosei 7 days ago 11 replies      
Reminds me of the old Gabe Newell (Valve founder) quote:

"Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem... If a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the US release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service is more valuable."

DigitalSea 6 days ago 3 replies      
I can understand why movie studios and copyright holders in the US would be worried, Popcorn Time lets you watch movies for free much like a traditional streaming service like Netflix offers. However, as an Australian, I see it very differently.

In Australia there is nothing that comes anywhere near as close as Netflix. We have cable TV in the form of Foxtel, but the price is about $110 AUD per month to get the good movie channels and channels with popular shows on them. Then we have the up and coming Fetch TV service which offers a somewhat good alternative to cable, but nothing like Netflix or Popcorn Time does. There is no online service like Netflix in Australia.

Sure, the price point is one thing, but I think Spotify has shown that an all you can eat premium service at a decent price can help reduce piracy. When Spotify launched in Australia a little while ago, I stopped downloading music because Spotify was faster and more convenient, many of my friends did the same.

Americans have a good range of choice when it comes to legal options for movies and TV shows. People in Australia, New Zealand and other countries, not so much and this is why torrents and applications like Popcorn Time will continue to be the best alternative until content licencing for music and movies/tv is sorted.

adamnemecek 7 days ago 3 replies      
It's pretty clever that all the movies shown in the screenshot of the app (at http://getpopcornti.me) are public domain.
steeve 6 days ago 1 reply      
For those on XBMC (aka who want to use their TV), I've been working on an extension for the last 6 months called XBMCtorrent that does that:


It's based on libtorrent (C++), Golang, and Python.

The major difference is that since it's based on libtorrent, it has good performance (even on low end CPUs like the RPi) and tries _very_ hard not to weaken the swarm too much (even though it uses sequential downloading).

So this means it runs on Mac, Linux, Windows and even Android and Raspberry Pi (OpenELEC).

rattray 6 days ago 2 replies      
Looks like it's basically a mashup of the YFTY torrents api, a few other APIs for subtitles/metadata, and the peerflix nodejs lib for streaming the torrents. Done in node-webkit. The first commit was only 20 days ago, according to github (could have rebuilt history of course), and the most recent 3 hrs ago at time of writing. Seems pretty active.

It looks like "they're watching you" through Google Universal Analytics[0]. Not sure if that's something to be concerned about.




[0] https://github.com/peaksandpies/universal-analytics

downandout 6 days ago 2 replies      
I realize this is an open source project, but I would steer far clear of contributing any code to it. This app is no different than Napster. From a civil perspective, its creators will be found liable for contributory infringement. But that's just the beginning. They will also likely soon experience a paramilitary style Kim Dotcom-esque raid on their homes and offices, where they will be arrested and face decades in prison.

I am not sure what the point of releasing this app and making it accessible in the US is. The FBI serves at the pleasure of large US corporations, and on their request will turn these guys into cannon fodder.

reidrac 6 days ago 1 reply      
Why can't I pay to have legally something like this? I want it!

I'm a Linux only user. What do I have right now? Well, Flash player + outdated DRM technology (HAL is been dead for a while, Adobe don't care) or play with Wine to run software that the vendor won't support in Linux.

And after tackling the outdated DRM issue with flash and paying for a movie stream in Google Play, the best I can get is 480p. Really?

Seriously. Make it happen. Take my money.

meowface 6 days ago 6 replies      
>We dont host anything, and none of the developers makes any money. There are no ads, no premium accounts, and no subscription fees or anything like that. Its an experiment to learn and share.

Famous last words. The Pirate Bay has made the same defense, but companies and law enforcement generally don't seem to care.

I would be shocked if they aren't sued or even prosecuted within the next year or 2. Not that that's a good thing, just that being this open and carefree about it will probably come to bite them in the ass later.

psychometry 7 days ago 3 replies      
Does anyone know how it works if they don't host any data? In order to stream a movie from a torrent, you'd need to download chunks of the video file sequentially started at the beginning in order to buffer and stream it. I thought BitTorrent required chunks to be downloaded in a random order.
dspillett 6 days ago 2 replies      
> We dont expect legal issues,

Really? This seems somewhat naive to me...

> We dont host anything, and none of the developers makes any money.

That has not posed a problem for those going after others in the past.

As soon as a large enough entity takes notice they'll run, either because there is a case to answer or because they can't afford the legal team required to prove there is not a case to answer.

malandrew 6 days ago 1 reply      
I would really love if they offered a "bitcoin payment" option where the studios who own the rights to a film can opt to get paid. That way all the studio would have to do is set up a bitcoin wallet and the developers would publish the wallet associated with a movie so that people consuming music can voluntarily pay for what they consume.

Legally, most studios may not be able to take advantage of such a payment option because of arcane licensing contract clauses, but most indie filmmakers without such a burden could.

Ideally such a feature would come with some sort of agreement that a studio absolves its right to pursue legal action upon payment of some reasonable amount (like $2-$4 for a movie and $1-$2 for a tv show).

Duhck 7 days ago 2 replies      
I've tried it a few times recently, and its pretty awesome.

The takeaway I have from this is that if hollywood chose to embrace this sort of thing, they would solve distribution costs (seed vs host). Their cost will be contained to just marketing and production. Be gone with the archaic contracts and let people get the content when they want it in a way that makes sense for everyone.

ddod 7 days ago 5 replies      
"[torrenting] isnt necessarily safe unless youre using a virtual private network to mask your whereabouts."

I find it really frustrating that TIME can publish such incorrect information that could directly lead to the detriment of its readers. I've also seen a couple people in HN saying a VPN is the "safe" way to torrent. Unless you're sure a VPN service won't comply with subpoenas or you've paid in bitcoin, it's not safer than not using one.

babby 6 days ago 2 replies      
This is suprisingly convenient; but I've always wanted to build something like this for years, but for power users.

Instead of streaming, it would be a node-webkit-esque app that allows one to;- Sync media over LAN, sync user's catalog everywhere with the option to sync data from one PC over the internet- Manage and browse media (By building a catalog of items from several watched directories)- Delete, move, rename media easily. Perhaps even manage archive formats automatically (autoextraction)- An api for subtitles- Build statistics, time watched, tv shows added per x time etc.- Store metadata like time media was paused at (to resume at), with a visual indicator in the catalog view- Automated parsing of releases, soft renaming- Scrape data for each item, generate tags from that data, categories- Archiving, sorting, grouping- Personalized catalogs of "what I watch". Kind of like how you might customize http://pogdesign.co.uk/cat/- A real-time tracker for new releases. It would query a web service which has a bot idling in a prechan, then after parsing each release it is able to match to any item that you watch and notify you that "this just came out". Alternatively, it could, for TV, just utilize airtimes from TVRage- Personalized page that lists all of the stuff you are looking for. List of things that you haven't downloaded yet but are in your list etc.- Integrated user defined searches. Allowing one to search their favorite sources autocompleted with things in the application's local catalog of "stuff you want/watch".- A nice dark interface, surprisingly a lot like what Popcorn Time is doing, though much more complex and functional.- The ability to choose your own media player to launch, thus giving up statistics, pause time and "watched" states. Would require the user to commit this info themselves, with a form popping up whenever they launch something from the app if they so choose.- Multiple sub-users per "catalog", so that one person would have access to the same file but may not have watched/behaved the same way as another user on the network- Integrated "coming soon" feed for tv and movies that you could preemptively select to be notified about.- One big database file that would be dynamic to the content available to it. This way the installation could be portable, and whenever it detects its on a different system (Synced by a dropbox service or a USB drive), the app will ask to specify watch-folders to sync with the database so that one could keep track of their "catalog", add things to it etc.- Open source, built on node-webkit like Popcorn. No datamining, pro privacy.- Works in a browser, thus on phones (I guess some TV's/Consoles too?) connected to the WLAN- Integration of a "WebUI" from popular torrent clients, with a custom standardized interface for all of them.

So basically XBMC for pirates, I guess.

Something tells me it's a niche market.

usaphp 6 days ago 1 reply      
There is a russian alternative (not sure which one came up first) called Zona (http://zona.ru/)
mountaineer 7 days ago 1 reply      
On a related note, what's the story behind MovieTube[1]? It streams many movies that are still in theaters. I can't find out anything about it, but word about it is making its way around my neighborhood and I'm telling people it's not wise to use it.

[1] http://www.youtubeonfire.com/

arg01 7 days ago 1 reply      
So it looks like the key API that Popcorn Time uses is YTS. So I guess that will be the target of any attempts to disrupt the service.

The entertainment industry is going to have to fight hard to remove geo-locking, content siloing by producer, and other barriers to consuming their service in the coming years to catch up with piracy's ease of use. If there's no barrier to entry for the laymen to pirate then it will get worse for the producers.

programminggeek 6 days ago 0 replies      
Am I crazy in thinking that Popcorn Time is a trap? It feels like one of those thins that is executed well enough that it will be seen as a threat and shut down ASAP. OR... it will be allowed to continue as a way to easily catch "pirates".

I personally believe that movie studios would do well to follow the Pirate License(http://retromocha.com/pirate-license.html) approach, but I just don't see them ever being that forward thinking when they are making millions of dollars with the old way.

frakkingcylons 6 days ago 1 reply      
I wonder if GitHub will be able to continue hosting their website and repo considering the legal grey-area.
milesf 6 days ago 0 replies      
Time magazine, who is owned by TimeWarner, runs a story on how to watch pirate movies? TimeWarner, owner of Warner Bros and HBO? THAT TimeWarner?

I smell children http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUnhfvGdmmw

Kiro 6 days ago 5 replies      
The eternal question which makes piracy unsuitable and complicated for me: what about subtitles? As soon as you need to download it separately it's a no go. It should be one click to activate a perfectly synced subtitle in at least English.
senthilnayagam 6 days ago 0 replies      
I am a Indian citizen, travel often to US, have a US citibank account, used mostly for filling gasoline and to subscribe to netflix. had a paid tunnelbear account as well(when I was in India or when I wanted to watch from netflix UK) . about 6 months back that bank account was suspended as I need to submit some documents for US tax authorities.

for apple app store though use apple gift cards, which my friends help me with.

Now don't have netflix, but have watched most latest shows and oscar nominated movies(which did not release in India) on torrent.

sdfjkl 6 days ago 1 reply      
Unlike Netflix, it doesn't want me to install dodgy clones[1] of a dying technology[2] for no good reason[3].

[1] Silverlight[2] Flash[3] My browser can play several modern video formats natively.

Cthulhu_ 6 days ago 2 replies      
"We're not making any money off of it" is kind of a moot argument. It's like breaking without entering.
pkinsky 6 days ago 1 reply      
Antigua is still authorized by the WTO to suspend US copyright. I wonder if an american startup could get away with running a hosted Popcorn Time service out of an Antiguan data center. They'd need to register an Antiguan LLC, of course.

Imagine Netflix, but with every film ever shot in Hollywood.

EGreg 6 days ago 0 replies      
Indeed! I always met the assertion that people are willing to pay for easy to use services with the question: what if pirate software becomes user friendly as well?

After a lot of thinking about it, I believe copyright protection is valuable to society and patent protection is much less so, or even detrimental. That's because copyright protection is very narrow and in economic terms creates an artificial contract between the authors and consumers, as if the consumers hired the author for some small fee.

On the other hand, once the work is created, should the consumers freely share it? Well, I don't see how to prevent it, so the laws and sanctions seem to be the only way.

gcb0 6 days ago 0 replies      
Can someone pirate the article on a decent platform. The genius there made something that it is now impossible to scroll on Android 2.3

Not even joking with the irony

balls187 7 days ago 0 replies      

Since it uses BitTorrent, and unlikely anonymously, I'd imagine that the MPAA and their goonsquad are going to have a field day with this.

bruceb 7 days ago 0 replies      
Sometime sites/apps/people that are legally questionable are too high profile for their own good. This might soon the case with Popcorn Time. It is like being The Pirate Bay, Joaqun El Chapo" Guzman, Kim Dotcom, etc big target on your back.
brianbreslin 6 days ago 0 replies      
This is an incredibly nice looking piece of software. I have to admit I've become so conditioned to FEARING getting sued by the movie companies. I wish I could pay for this. The movie selection of streaming/bundled movies on netflix/hulu/amazon always disappoints me (new releases are never there).
rodolphoarruda 6 days ago 0 replies      
I would like to "test this software for unlimited time", if you know what I mean. How do I install it in Ubuntu? I have downloaded the package and tried to run it through the usual software installer, but it didn't work. Then I went to their FAQ page but couldn't find any clues about it.
lettergram 6 days ago 0 replies      
Wouldn't have even known about this, thank you Time.com
Paul12345534 7 days ago 1 reply      
It's just as easy to pay a monthly fee for Netflix, etc.... than it is to pay for a VPN (and properly use it, a small mistake outs your IP) to avoid being sued for torrenting.

Now... back in the Megaupload's heyday, things were a bit different. Lots of content, little danger.

Personally I buy most of my content :) especially any program that I actually make money using.

artichokeheart 6 days ago 0 replies      
Thanks time.com! Great publicity. Downloading now.
scrrr 6 days ago 0 replies      
Shouldn't somebody at time.com be charged with crime for posting a link to an infringing site? ;)
johnnymonster 6 days ago 0 replies      
I had no idea node-webkit was a thing!!! There goes what little free time I had.
neurobro 6 days ago 0 replies      
The movie industry should be more afraid of the video game industry than of piracy. It's probably less than 5-10 years before it will be possible to auto-generate somewhat entertaining feature-length sequences from the viewer's/player's favorite game assets, and then another 5 years to push movie studios into obsolescence (other than a niche market for the nostalgic old folks).

Or instead of being afraid, they could fire the lawyers and invest that money in this direction.

m4r71n 6 days ago 1 reply      
I couldn't find this anywhere: does the client support BitTorrent protocol encryption and does it allow you to specify to download from encrypted peers only?
Legend 6 days ago 0 replies      
Reminds me of a work on detecting copyright monitors. Read the introduction part to understand the risks of using torrents to stream movies.


ChristianMarks 6 days ago 0 replies      
My solution is legal but unpopular: no MPAA movies, no RIAA recordings.
antoinec 6 days ago 0 replies      
The most amazing thing to me about this is that it took that much time to get to this software.
mikewhy 6 days ago 0 replies      
Disclaimer: I am the author of the channel.

Would like to mention SS Plex[1]. It doesn't use torrents, but it allows you to stream and download content to a wider variety of devices.

[1]: http://mikew.github.io/ss-plex.bundle/

forlorn 6 days ago 1 reply      
Damn leechers. This is how p2p and user-friendy apps actually kill torrenting.
jotaass 6 days ago 0 replies      
This reminds me of the excellent tv.js. The same, but running in your browser (plus node.js)


__pThrow 7 days ago 0 replies      
In my limited experience it seems that torrent clients were all trying to migrate towards this and be a media browser first, torrent client second. The end result was user flight to the next upcoming torrent client.

So was this a torrent client to start with?

For the end user how does this compare to websites like stream-tv.me which aggregate links to tv shows? Those links lead to generally poor resolution shows, but not unwatchable. TV resolution with some HD resolution. Have there been cases where content providers go after the users of those sites? (I have a friend who uses them...)

pgsch 7 days ago 1 reply      
There are better online (and without installing anything) alternatives, like http://peliculasio.com/ spanish
nkg 6 days ago 0 replies      
was that advertising? If so, it worked just fine. While I had never heard about that app, I've just installed it and forgot about every torrent website!
johnnymonster 6 days ago 0 replies      
well there goes yify torrents, with this much publicity on an app the movie companies are gonna go after whoever they are getting their movies from...
spacesword 6 days ago 1 reply      
I had no idea node.js was this powerful, can somebody point me in the direction so I can learn how to use PeerFlix to make something like this?
munimkazia 6 days ago 0 replies      
I was waiting for the first big mainstream node.js desktop app to come around. This could be it.
shekhar101 6 days ago 0 replies      
Awesome! This is so neat! Since project is open source, any idea, how some more sources can be added?
betterunix 6 days ago 0 replies      
What is scary about this?
LeicaLatte 6 days ago 0 replies      
Popcorn time had been trending in github all of last week. Its starting to hit mainstream now.
JungleGymSam 6 days ago 0 replies      
No, it's not scary.
alaxx 7 days ago 0 replies      
Don't worry. 3 More months and i'll be launching the next biggest movie site. P2P Streaming, MP4, Apps, everything you can imagine... Fast/Sexy and no ads.
aortega 7 days ago 0 replies      
"Made with <3 by a bunch of geeks from Buenos Aires"

Oh not again...

Iconic An Icon System Designed for the Modern Web useiconic.com
565 points by Anchor  13 days ago   116 comments top 37
gkoberger 13 days ago 5 replies      
How can they say it's the "first and only icon system created for the modern web"?

The Noun Project has been doing SVG icons for years (http://thenounproject.com). It's slightly harder, but you can change colors/resolution/etc.

Sites like FontAwesome (http://fontawesome.io) cover all the basic icons and are insanely easy to use

LivIcons does animated icons (http://livicons.com/#demovideo)

I guess they're cool, but they're not innovative enough for their overly boastful slogan -- unless I'm missing something?

ookblah 13 days ago 4 replies      
Lurker here. Why is there so much pessimism in this thread... ?

I'm not familiar with all the font libraries out there. I use Font Awesome right now, and quite frankly it's nice for being free, but has limitations in other regards(like only being pixel perfect in multiples of 14...etc) It seems like a great alternative to what's out there (Different details at diff resolutions, internal colors being changed).

HN confuses me more and more every day. Upvoted to #1, but 99% of these comments aren't constructive.

JoshTriplett 13 days ago 1 reply      
Pro: Responsive SVG with identified components addressible using CSS.

Cons: Wants Javascript. Uses Javascript-interpreted data-* attributes for basic semantic content like "which direction does the arrow point". Not Open Source.

Interesting, but not nearly as good as the existing alternatives.

tshadwell 13 days ago 6 replies      
I feel I am perhaps being too pessimistic, but I fear this trend toward this heavier, unused-feature filled web-- a mosaic of libraries that make web development or design better in X and Y way that really doesn't affect the end user that much, but largely increases the cost and speed of viewing a webpage, especially in places and countries without the high internet speeds the developers inevitably have.

How many icons will a website need before an abstraction like this is necessary to manage them?

If every icon has each element labelled with large prefixed classes (".iconic-camera-slr-lens-release"), this is going to be a lot of extra footprint for websites that have enough icons to make this useful.

Perhaps I am alone in thinking that colourful icons are somewhat noisy, and thus will be used only in designs where icons are prominent elements, and as such infrequently; with that frequency, they could even be individually coded for.

devindotcom 13 days ago 2 replies      
Eeeesh... I don't like the aesthetic at all. Most of the icons I saw were very ugly. I'm also skeptical of the benefit of "baking in" detail rather than tailoring for your size and layout. Sorry.
brianherbert 13 days ago 1 reply      
I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that this was successfully crowdfunded to the tune of almost $100,000 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/207474036/iconic-advanc...
hardwaresofton 13 days ago 2 replies      
Really does seem like these guys are a day late and a dollar short.

So far the list out the added value over fontawesome I can see is:

- Multiple colors

grumblestumble 12 days ago 1 reply      
I'm using Streamline on my current project ( http://www.streamlineicons.com/ ), and I'd recommend it over Iconic if you're looking for a commercial-grade icon solution - it's more expensive, but well worth it. 2 sizes, separate resources for filled vs outlined which are well thought out and involve more than just "filling in" the outline version. No SVG, but various vector formats which can easily be exported to SVG via batch tools. And they seem to really be into supporting and extending their product, every update has been free and I've been notified in a non-spammy way.

...and no, I'm not affiliated, I've just had a very pleasant experience working with their stuff, IMO for a commercial product it's well worth the investment.

Pxtl 13 days ago 1 reply      
I have to say, Chrome screaming and falling over and begging for mercy at the sight of their icon listing page doesn't really bode well.
aalpbalkan 13 days ago 2 replies      
Paying for icons? No thanks. I have http://fontawesome.io/
mtalantikite 12 days ago 0 replies      
I'm not a UX designer, but do you really want your icons to change detail based on display size, rather than have a uniformity in display across devices? Wouldn't that increase the burden on the user to memorize more icons that they have to potentially interact with?

I know the detail scales on the icons are subtle, but intuitively I'd think it might make a difference.

Can a UX designer can give their thoughts on that?

joshka 13 days ago 1 reply      
Stuff below the fold, but I can't scroll is a little annoying.
tehaaron 12 days ago 0 replies      
Lots of pessimism in this thread let me try to even it out a little.

I personally backed this when it was on Kickstarter for $35 and do not regret my decision. I have used FontAwesome in the past as well as a few other free alternatives. While the javascript-less-ness of FA is nice (Iconic has a webfont), the quality of the icons themselves and their level of customization comes no where near Iconic. Many people have mentioned the multiple colors on 1 icon but I haven't seen anyone talk about the ability to easily theme all icons with just a couple lines of css, which makes the multiple color thing more appealing.

Additionally, Iconic is available as Webfont and PNG if so desired. They are also working on a number of additional features that I find interesting (bottom of the features page https://useiconic.com/feature-index/), specifically ExtendScript for Illustrator and then generation via Grunt.

I am pleased with my $35 purchase and have no reservations about paying the $99 for a commercial license if it fits the project (like any icon set you choose!)...However, for those who haven't had a chance to try it I really wish there was a cheaper/free option for experimenting.

eliot_sykes 12 days ago 0 replies      
How is this different to the original Iconic from the same designer?


julianz 12 days ago 0 replies      
"accute" is surely a spelling mistake (it's in the classes that are applied to the arrows on the demo page). That would peeve me greatly.
erichurkman 13 days ago 0 replies      
The input fields are almost invisible on the 'buy' page.
kylnew 12 days ago 0 replies      
Kickstarter backer here. Funny how critical everyone is as though there is no demand for something like this. Well, over 2000 of us disagreed before iconic was even delivered.

I've used Fontawesome, I've used Entypo, I've used Weblays, I've used the original Iconic. I think that this offering is a step above than all of those, especially in the web category (I use them in mobile too).

The only mistake here is the licensing, which I hope will change. It was not clearly stated during the Kickstarter campaign, and is actually against my expectations (though it appears some in the comments section had discussed this).

IMO, it should be non-tiered and unlimited commercial use.That aside, wake up, this is useful.

jayvanguard 13 days ago 1 reply      
Why is a $49 product front page HN material? I think a lot of people are clicking and upvoting thinking this open source.
ssorallen 13 days ago 0 replies      
Requiring JavaScript to view icons seems like a major downside compared to competitors that are plain font files like Font Awesome. Now the client has to download and execute the JS before seeing what might be important UI cues.
betadreamer 13 days ago 2 replies      
The site is well made but I wont use this. As other mentioned, there are free options out there.

If the target audience is a startup, it has to have a free option.

brokenparser 11 days ago 0 replies      
They should've used something like stripe for the checkout, as there's a lack of payment options. Oh well, guess they don't want my money.
CmonDev 12 days ago 0 replies      
I wish style was consistent: some icons have miniature details, while some are super-simplistic. Windows Modern GUI icons are the best imho.
boggzPit 13 days ago 1 reply      
I like how they expose details of an icon as CSS classes, well structured. I personally think its to expansive.

15-20$ would be okay.

andyhmltn 12 days ago 0 replies      
Weird. I got the homepage up fine but now I just get a 404 error after going to the tour page. Now if I go back I get the exact same page?
Springtime 12 days ago 0 replies      
I've found the Entypo [1] collection to be a more useful set of icons for small sizes. The glyphs are well drawn and have a very consistent style throughout. Well worth a look.

[1] http://www.entypo.com/

sunraa 12 days ago 0 replies      
Forgive my ignorance ... What are the advantages of using icon systems such as Iconic & Fontawesome as opposed to using Unicode character codes. Maybe not all various icons are available in Unicode? And Unicode is geared towards language? thoughts?
aberrant 12 days ago 0 replies      
Our designer would consider it, if the visible license options were not so restricting. Rather than make it "Limited to 1 commercial project", they should add a reasonable license solution that allows a team to use it for many projects.
blablabla123 12 days ago 0 replies      
What about performance? How does it compare to, say, regular icons that are combined within a CSS Sprite?
ktzar 12 days ago 0 replies      
Why does it show a waveform for "audio spectrum". Spectrum has no negative values, but imaginary values (which I'm sure the author is not aware of and are not represented like that).
apunic 12 days ago 0 replies      
Slightly OT: 'the modern web' is native and mobile
jbeja 13 days ago 1 reply      
The scrolling in the website is chopy.
jheriko 13 days ago 2 replies      
interesting but you lost me on the home icon. '+' shaped window with a door preferably with chimney - the iconic image that most people recognise on sight as a house. not some weird triangle on a square with an inverted v on top which maybe kinda sort of indicates a roof... but why is it separate?

respect existing standards. innovate later.

harrystone 12 days ago 1 reply      
Accessibility would be cooler than auto sizing.
thenerdfiles 13 days ago 1 reply      
I love Iconic !
quickpost 12 days ago 0 replies      
awesome set.
globalpanic 12 days ago 0 replies      
License page is missing
dsernst 12 days ago 0 replies      
This is so cool.
F.lux updated justgetflux.com
555 points by glennericksen  11 days ago   248 comments top 57
suprgeek 11 days ago 6 replies      
"A healthy circadian rhythm depends on seeing bright light while youre awake, not just avoiding bright light before bed"

This statement cannot be emphasized enough. Especially for Hackers and other indoor/Desk bound folks, the amount of bright sunlight exposure is critically important for two reasons:

1) Sunlight is the "moderator" of our circadian Rhythm via Melatonin and other Neuro-chemicals

2) A large percentage of people are Vitamin-D deficient, more Sunlight (on skin) = greater chance of Combating this issue

Taken together, fixing these will resolve many issues..

Udo 10 days ago 1 reply      
I just realized for the first time that I'm apparently using F.lux differently from all other people. For me, it's about making the color palette more compatible with the lighting situation in the room. I'm not into all that circadian stuff at all.

I love the new features, but I'm not wild about the software calculating the "night-time-but-not-bedtime" duration for me. Though F.lux seems to go into the opposite direction, I would prefer more configurability not less - for example letting people set the transition times themselves and enabling them to have as many lighting modes as they want.

tlb 11 days ago 5 replies      
I'd happily pay $9.99 through the App store, if you guys ever want to monetize my grateful eyeballs.
bretthopper 11 days ago 11 replies      
f.lux was basically unusable in its previous version that was tied to sunset. In Toronto, for example, f.lux would start kicking in at 5pm in the winter which is no where near most people's bedtimes.

My solution was to continually disable it for an hour at a time until I had enough and uninstalled it. Happy to be able to try it out again.

lawnchair_larry 11 days ago 2 replies      
Hmm, I don't like this update. I don't want flux to be on my schedule. My schedule is bad - that's why I use flux. The point of it is to help regulate my own rhythm, not reinforce my bad habits.
pwthornton 11 days ago 2 replies      
You're crazy if you don't use flux. It's incredible. You'll sleep better, get less headaches and it helps with eye strain. My only regret is that I can't get it on every computing device I own.
chid 11 days ago 1 reply      
I'm slightly confused, are there actually any useful updates to the Windows version or is this just for the mac?
Kluny 10 days ago 2 replies      
I just witnessed proof that I NEED flux - I turned it off to download this update, and it felt like my eyeballs were stabbed with a blue knife. The difference was shocking. I don't know how I ever lived without it.
dakrisht 10 days ago 4 replies      
One of the best utilities ever. What I would do to get this on iOS devices. And if you guys feel like monetizing, throw up a donation button I'm sure you'll have transactions ringing nonstop. Thanks for the amazing utility you've created - you help us work better and sleep better.
pcarmichael 11 days ago 2 replies      
I had the previous version installed on my mac, and kept seeing sporadic issues with my mouse cursor jumping a couple hundred pixels at once when moving it side to side. Finally disabled F.lux and the problem went away. Anyone know if the new release fixes that issue?
stereo 11 days ago 1 reply      
The worst part about updating Flux is that you have to quit the currently running version, with the white flash that hurts your eyes.
zx2c4 11 days ago 2 replies      
Still closed source.

What a shame.

teddyknox 11 days ago 0 replies      
There's a new trend I've noticed recently in the software industry behind research driven development.. there's another link on the frontpage about reading software by a startup called Spritz http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/27/spritz-reading_n_48... that has somehow managed to get >300% improvement on reading speeds just by taking eye scroll out of the equation. I'm excited that we've reached the point where we've started questioning the fundamentals of our user interfaces, and I'm surprised how easy the switch over to this next-gen of design has been. I expected the process to resemble the painful switch from Querty to Dvorak, but it's been more creative than that.
tobyjsullivan 11 days ago 4 replies      
I love the Darkroom feature. I think that'll have some surprisingly handy applications.

Edit: Unfortunately, it seems to completely break when my screensaver kicks in.

roryokane 10 days ago 0 replies      
The new version number is 26.0. Im noting this because when I first tried to install the program by overwriting the version in my Applications folder, it was still my old version (23) that ran for some reason. If you dont see any difference after installation, open About f.lux and make sure youre on version 26.0.
monkeynotes 11 days ago 3 replies      
I wish something similar could work on an iPad. I use my iPad before bed and it often impacts on my ability to sleep.
JetSpiegel 11 days ago 4 replies      
I love f.lux, but it's ironic that their page has a white background, blinding me coming from the Dark Hacker News [1].

[1] http://userstyles.org/styles/71155/georgify-dark-hacker-news

Houshalter 10 days ago 3 replies      
I've been using f.lux for I think about a year. Honestly I think it's just a placebo and I haven't noticed any real effect. My sleep schedule is terrible. I just feel I should comment because all of the only people commenting are those that did benefit (or at least believe they did.) The comments are not an accurate survey of how many people really did see an effect.
easy_rider 10 days ago 1 reply      
I am happy with Redshift, as with everyone else finding f.lux on Linux buggy. F.lux is missing the boat on a lot of developers I'm guessing :)Mac people don't work nights anyway, when Starbucks is closed, so I don't see the point..
state 11 days ago 0 replies      
I was just turned on to f.lux recently and I can't recommend it enough. I find the affects to be really noticeable and positive; working during the night is much less abrasive and I find the transition from screen to bed to be really smooth.

I love that something so simple can have such direct, physical ramifications.

elwell 11 days ago 0 replies      
The problem I had with flux is I couldn't keep my gamma settings on my displays. (windows + intel graphics driver software)
scrumper 11 days ago 1 reply      
Love F.lux; congrats on the update. Has it fixed that nasty Mavericks multiple display bug that filled the console with thousands of these lines?

6/3/14 21:37:52.209 Flux[26626]: CGSGetSizeOfDisplayTransfer: Invalid display 0x0424e64d

robbiet480 11 days ago 1 reply      
Man, I was hoping that they would have added Hue support to Mac as well as Windows :(
kolev 10 days ago 0 replies      
I cannot live without F.lux on Mac and Twilight on Android. Can't wait for my orange shades to arrive as I have CFL lights in the kitchen, which I cannot remove and started to supplement with bioidentical melatonin recently. I've been using F.lux since it got released years ago, used Redshift on Ubuntu, and this release finally brings Windows features to Mac and I'm so happy! I've been ridiculed all this years for my reddish screen and most people ask: "What's wrong with your screen?" and they get, "No, what's wrong with yours?".
vanmount 11 days ago 1 reply      
I hope they're pushing the latest changes to their linux repo at some time. I love flux but all those nice Mac features make me jealous...
Jugurtha 9 days ago 0 replies      
I used to sleep in a room on the roof and leave the door open. The sun would be facing me just when it's up and I'd wake up early. It was great.

But even when I changed room, I didn't close curtains or something, so the sun would directly be in my face when it's up, and I'd wake up and start the day..

But a lot of the time, I'd be up before the sun going up (up by 4h30, work out, take a shower, eat breakfast (steak, eggs, half a liter of milk, some fruits) and start the day. I'd see people have low battery by 11h00 and I'd be throbbing with energy until the very last moments when I come home.

I drank a RedBull only once in my entire 26 years of existence, and it was only this year. I didn't like it.

JeffL 11 days ago 1 reply      
These new features are only for the Mac version?
meryn 10 days ago 1 reply      
Does anyone else have trouble understanding (or "intuitively reading") the graph in the f.lux beta preferences? I discovered that's a kind of "ego-centric" graph. I mean ego-centric just like there once where earth-centric (and later) helio-centric models of the universe.

Because the graph is totally ego-centric, the graph starts when you wake up. I just can't wrap my head around that. In my mind, I wake up at a specific clock time, and the universe is configured in a certain way at this particular moment. In particular, the sun has a certain position in the sky. (interestingly, I use an earth-centric model in this regard).

What's (relatively) constant for me is how the sun moves through the sky (this depends on where you live on earth, plus time of year). Obviously, it's beyond my powers to change the time of year. I could change where I live on earth, but I'm not doing that very often. What's directly controlled by me is when I wake and go to bed... Why can't I change these positions on an otherwise static "map"?

I don't want to express the current year as relative to my life either. I.e. three periods: "the time I hadn't been born yet", "the time that I live", "the time beyond when I died". It's rather insane. Yes, we use Jesus date of birth as a reference point now, you could say that it's bad and we should count from a different epoch or so, but at least things are not expressed relative to my life.

InclinedPlane 10 days ago 0 replies      
I didn't really "get" the purpose of flux for a while. I appreciated the sleep schedule reinforcement aspects of it but if you don't have a normal sleep schedule then it would seem to be less useful. That's always been the major selling point for f.lux forever, and it seemed so intrusive so I didn't use it.

However, I finally figured out the real reason for using it: white balance adjustment. The thing is, our eyes aren't just imaging sensors, they're active systems that continually adjust to ambient conditions. They do lots of things without us even thinking about it. One of the most important things they do is compensate for white balance. If you look at a white wall when the sun is shining on it during the height of daytime and if you look at the same wall during the middle of the night when it's illuminated by artificial light you will perceive it to be the same color in both instances. But in reality it's not, when lit by indoor lighting it's a very different color, but our eyes/vision system automatically adjust for the different spectrum of lighting.

The problem is that computer monitors throw a monkey wrench into this because they are independent light sources. White displayed during the day on a computer monitor is #FFFFFF, during the night it's still #FFFFFF, but this conflicts with the white balance of the environment. And that conflict causes eye strain and discomfort. At night looking at your monitor you might even perceive white to be slightly bluish, due to the conflicting white balance. By bringing the white balance of your display into harmony with the changing white balance of ambient lighting (as it transitions from natural to artificial) you get rid of a lot of those problems.

Hopefully with f.lux adding more configurability into their program they can make people more aware of these benefits regardless of sleep patterns.

Achshar 10 days ago 0 replies      
Can I have a shortcut for disabling for an hour? Or maybe toggle the setting when I doubleclick the tray icon in windows? That would be really cool, I use the toggle so often and single double- click/shortcut seem so much better than two clicks.
derefr 10 days ago 1 reply      
I used, and enjoyed, f.lux for a few years. These days, though, I just recalibrate my OS color profile to something reddish and leave it there. Why should I want to look at blue light during the day?
esMazer 10 days ago 0 replies      
I don't know about any of the "sleep benefits" but as someone that works and enjoys being in front of computers 10+ hours a day, is great! As soon as I got it 3+ years ago my red-eye, eye-discomfort, dry-eye and strained-eye conditions disappeared! I can't use the computer without it (day or night)
stuaxo 10 days ago 0 replies      
Have they fixed the CPU issue?


I really like f.lux but I do seem to get weird problems on some machines, apart from the above problem I've experiences severe flicker on some machines, others are fine.

aidos 11 days ago 0 replies      
f.lux now shows you when the suns up

We need to get out more...

Hydraulix989 11 days ago 1 reply      
What about Linux?

The "f.lux: F.A.Q." page only has a broken archive.org link. When I tried using xflux, it was consuming inordinate CPU cycles.

wiradikusuma 11 days ago 1 reply      
Is flux "compatible" for people with day job and doing side projects after hours? You want to be sleepy when it's time to sleep, but you don't want to be sleepy when you're working on your exit ticket from bigco.
bobbles 11 days ago 1 reply      
Once you have tried it for a week or so, try using a different computer until the same time at night. Your eyes will be significantly more tired / drained.
rjzzleep 11 days ago 1 reply      
herf, i've been trying to find some info on this, but can you tell us why the default color settings changed so much? (recommended colors, vs. classic flux)
lightblade 11 days ago 0 replies      

Now I want a Smart Things[1] integration with this.

[1]: http://www.smartthings.com

baq 10 days ago 0 replies      
why the topic doesn't mention is just for the mac?
MrBlue 10 days ago 1 reply      
F.lux never worked for me. (Ubuntu 12.04) Cool idea though.
duochrome 11 days ago 0 replies      
A releated question:

I need to adjust the brightness a few times every day just to match the ambient light.

Are there any better solutions?

I don't use the laptop display as the watching angle is not healthy. I use dell displays.

disbelief 11 days ago 0 replies      
> Disable until sunrise

Thank you F.lux! The one feature I really hoped you'd add.

vincentmilliken 10 days ago 1 reply      
Anyone know if they have added support for a second monitor for Mac?

Last time I checked it only worked for one of my monitors on my MBP, would be great to start using this again.

john2x 11 days ago 1 reply      
Still no option to remove the icon from the menu?
gtklocker 10 days ago 1 reply      
Good to see the HTTPS site/download working. Now if only we had GPG signatures for this.
dfc 11 days ago 0 replies      
What features does f.lux have that are not in redshift?
sizzle 11 days ago 3 replies      
can we please, PLEASE have an android port of F.lux. All the other apps make my phone erratic and lag, or flash the unfiltered screen at random intervals which is binding at night.

I would gladly pay for this!

marcoagner 10 days ago 0 replies      
Wow, I've JUST downloaded F.lux on my computer.Came here to read Hacker News and this is on the top.Oh, HN... haha
motyar 11 days ago 0 replies      
This is the only app I have to jailbreak my iPhone and iPodtouch.
sizzle 11 days ago 0 replies      
*blinding at night.

how is twilight?

sizzle 10 days ago 0 replies      
so if I'm working in a room with daylight temp. bulbs past midnight, should I avoid F.lux?
imperialdrive 11 days ago 1 reply      
huge fan of f.lux - couldn't work without it - I actually switched from iOS to Android over the want for this single app!
aroch 11 days ago 0 replies      
Yes, finally!
RivieraKid 11 days ago 2 replies      
Android pls.
covi 11 days ago 1 reply      
Is f.lux good for my eyes?
math0ne 11 days ago 1 reply      
Is this stuff mac only?
Flappy Bird Creator Dong Nguyen Speaks Out rollingstone.com
535 points by johns  6 days ago   227 comments top 33
bsenftner 6 days ago 5 replies      
As a long term developer of entertainment software, I totally agree with his point of view about the impact one's software has upon the lives of the user. The general acceptance goes that the crazies and depressed will be triggered by something and its not your fault if something provocative you worked on triggers an incident. That's what the group think tells us, but in ones personal reality it's not that easy to shrug off. Over the decades I've been on the teams of high profile games and films with medium levels of violence. After each title is released, I'd receive a half dozen or so "fan" emails from people who obviously researched the dev team and was reaching out. On the games with medium levels of violence, of the half dozen fan emails only one would be praise, the others would be serious hate mail. That kind of stuff throws you, even if you suspect pretty strongly that the sender is probably 8 years old. Yeah, I can totally see why he pulled the plug. He's got enough momey, and he's not greedy. What he want's most is clearly freedom, and fame was taking that away. Yeah, I'd pull the plug too.
uptown 6 days ago 4 replies      
"Then he hit a button, and Flappy Bird disappeared. When I ask him why he did it, he answers with the same conviction that led him to create the game. 'I'm master of my own fate,' he says. 'Independent thinker.'"

Good for him. The world needs more people with this attitude.

elwell 6 days ago 2 replies      
I'm reminded of a time in elementary school when I opened a Pokmon booster pack to discover a Charizard. I thought it was the best day of my life, but all my friends wanted to trade me for it, and I began to hate my Charizard card. I even had a nightmare in which Charizard blew fire at me. Alas, fame and fortune are quite the deception.
imjk 6 days ago 0 replies      
"Nguyen wanted to make games for people like himself: busy, harried, always on the move. "I pictured how people play," he says, as he taps his iPhone and reaches his other hand in the air. "One hand holding the train strap." He'd make a game for them."

I found myself playing in this exact manner many times while riding the subway. Even when I would go just one or two stops, it was convenient way to spend the time squeezing in a few games of Flappy Bird without worrying about concentrating too hard on any one game, or being concerned about getting cutoff in any one round by having to leave or dodge a bystander.

United857 6 days ago 5 replies      
Another plausible reason that I've not seen reported is that if he was indeed pulling in $50k/day, that makes you a target in Vietnam (average monthly salary $185).

In that part of the world, being rich without having the right connections/protection can be very, very dangerous.

applecore 6 days ago 5 replies      
Unfortunately, by removing Flappy Bird from the App Store, he opened the door for shitty clones to reach the top of the charts. This arguably made the lives of users worse. He also passed up the opportunity to make millions of more dollars in merchandising.
thret 6 days ago 0 replies      
"I pictured how people play," he says, as he taps his iPhone and reaches his other hand in the air. "One hand holding the train strap."

That's the main insight.

elwell 6 days ago 3 replies      

  three he's working on simultaneously: an untitled cowboy-themed shooter, a vertical flying game called Kitty Jetpack and an "action chess game," as he puts it, called Checkonaut, one of which he'll release this month
Don't say the names of his to-be-released games; someone might grab the app names now. (Unless they're already approved but hidden; though Apple usually doesn't allow "in-progress"/beta app submissions)

stevejohnson 6 days ago 2 replies      
Does anyone have the source for the Romero quote on the third page?

    John Romero, co-creator of the game Doom, says Flappy Bird    is "a reaction against prevailing design the way grunge     was a reaction to metal."

DigitalSea 6 days ago 0 replies      
I wish the game industry as a whole was a lot more like Dong, instead of being all about the money. He gave up 50k a day, no doubt if the app had stayed in the store it might have even climbed higher before peaking and slowly coming back down. That one line in the interview when asked why he took his game down, "I'm master of my own fate" says it all about the type of guy Dong is: a decent one.

Sure he's still making money from the people that downloaded it, but he's not being greedy and I respect that. He put the well-being and privacy of himself and his family above the crazy amounts of money he was making. He made his money and he is grateful, he didn't try and push it as far as he could have. Heck, he had so many offers from people wanting to buy the game, he could have easily commanded a six-figure sum for the IP alone, but didn't. He just decided to take it down and leave it at that.

The world needs more people like Dong.

brador 6 days ago 3 replies      
No mention of the massive publicity boost from the Youtube let's play video of Flappy Bird by that strange Norwegian guy with millions of subscribers?
codecondo 6 days ago 0 replies      
The featured photo for this story is very strong, and it answers more questions than the story itself ever will :)
judk 6 days ago 0 replies      
Dong Nguyen is doing an awesome pivot from a throwaway fad app into a celebrity.
argumentum 6 days ago 1 reply      
> the young programmer stood out for his speed, skills and fierce independent streak. "Dong didn't need a supervisor," Truong says. "He wasn't comfortable with it. So we said he did not have to report to anyone.

Years ago, when I heard of someone being spectacularly successful at something I "could have done" should I have chosen to I chalked it up to luck & circumstance. Two prominent examples come to mind: Facebook and Groupon.

Funny thing is, every time I actually looked into the story behind such phenomena (or met the individuals involved), I would find there's always more than meets the eye.

There's some obsession, some genius (often bordering on insanity), some talent or character trait or propensity behind what seems to be just "luck".

Safe to say, I no longer believe in luck. Of course, there's randomness, which sometimes favors you and other times acts against your interests. But what people call "luck" is what you make of this randomness.

I don't know Dong Nguyen. I've never met him or talked to him. I don't know what makes him tick, or tap or flap. I have little to say about why he pulled his app, except that it likely had nothing to do with money or fame or success.

I can say, however, that there's likely more than meets the eye.

danso 6 days ago 1 reply      
Ah dangit, another famous Nguyen (along with Dat Nguyen) who I'll be asked if I'm related to. It's especially interesting and cool that he's still in Vietnam, and I'm not surprised that was a heavy factor in just waking away...$50,000 a day, even a year, is a lot of money. My uncle was making less than that (a year) in Saigon and yet could still afford to rent a massive house with courtyard, 2 servants and a nanny, and a SUV with a driver.

(BTW, dong is the name of Vietnam's currency, something that is probably worth a lot of jokes in the Vietnamese media)

Also, becoming a viral success (regardless of quality of the game) from Vietnam is a much different and rarer accomplishment than doing it from America (or any place where the world's media is more attuned to). Kudos to him!

josefresco 5 days ago 0 replies      
Did anyone else find it odd that he's working on new games, that will (if successful) potentially have the same negative impact on the lives of the people who play and Nguyen himself?

I don't think Nguyen needs a reason to pull the app, and I respect his right to change his mind but I find it funny that we all seek some sort of wisdom when in fact there might not be any. Shit got crazy and he pulled the game, the end. Doesn't make for a compelling story, and creates no "guiding mantra" for other game developers, but for me it's just as meaningful.

HNaTTY 6 days ago 0 replies      
This was an interesting writeup, but I can't help but think that removing Flappy Bird at the height of popularity was anything less than the shrewdest of PR moves. He continues to get all the ad dollars from existing installs, and has achieved legendary status, assuring that any new games he may release get a lot of coverage and positioning him at the top of the heap. It's really genius!
mrb 6 days ago 1 reply      
"Nguyen was earning an estimated $50,000 a day. Not even Mark Zuckerberg became rich so fast."

False. Zuckerberg became rich faster. Facebook was founded in February 2004. As of February 2014 Zuckerberg's personal wealth is estimated at $31.6 billion. So, during these 10 years, his wealth increased on average by $8.7 million per day.

But I guess the point is moot anyway since RollingStone is comparing apples to oranges (earning != wealth).

rottyguy 6 days ago 1 reply      
"Growing up in Van Phuc, a village outside Hanoi famous for silk-making, Nguyen (pronounced nwin) never imagined being a world-famous game designer."

As Nguyen is a very popular Vietnamese name, I'd thought to bring this up.. It is not pronounced with an 'N'.. wikipedia has the correct pronunciation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyen

Destitute 6 days ago 1 reply      
Does anyone know what language he coded the game in? It's kind of a feat in itself that he ported it (by himself) to Android rather quickly. Is he using some sort of wrapper?
Fuxy 5 days ago 0 replies      
Great to hear he's doing OK.

There's just one recommendation i can give him develop a thicker skin you can't change your game for every person blaming external things for their own incompetence.

My office is net to the call center if you ever hear the stupid shit people say you will realize you can't take anything to heart.

Do your thing man and ignore people complaining that their life was ruined by you in some way they will blame everybody except themselves.

jacquesm 5 days ago 0 replies      
We had a guy commit suicide on cam in the early days of our website. It was terrible. I was asleep in NL, nobody thought of calling us, just an email that went unseen for the better part of the night. Then in the morning I woke up to a site that was pulled off the air by the hosting provider (ev1) to lessen the chances of copycat acts or other mishaps.

Looking back through the chat snippets that people had mailed from that cam it looked like a bunch of assholes had actively pushed the guy to do it.

We figured out where he lived and sent the police to his home, they took the guy down and after that ev1 restored service to our machine but for the longest time I felt like simply leaving it off.

It's no fun at all when your creations get away from you in ways that you did not foresee. There is a lot more backstory to this which I'm not going to relate here for obvious reasons, and that wasn't even the lowest point of running a consumer oriented website for 15 years and counting, go figure.

pfisch 6 days ago 8 replies      
I heard it was just a reskin of a premade game he got off an asset store. Is that not the case?

This article made it sound like it was an original idea, but I thought it was just that one button to go up, no button to go down flash game. Is that not what it is?

mesuvash 6 days ago 2 replies      
Nothing but #respect. It's hard to see people who give up fortune for what they consider right thing(atleast from his perspective).
blazespin 6 days ago 0 replies      
I think rolling stone is having a tuff time differentiating between a meme and a world famous video game.
DanBC 6 days ago 0 replies      
Is there a cultural bias in the HN comments?

Some of the asian social networks are ferocious, much worse than the twitter witch hunts we sometimes see in the US.

The Human flesh search engine doesn't sound like something I'd want to be on the wrong end of.


Ryel 6 days ago 3 replies      
Just to clarify, Dong Nguyen is still alive... right?

The article is a little fuzzy -

"In the wake of Flappy Bird's demise, rumors spread. Nguyen had committed suicide."

felipelalli 5 days ago 0 replies      
TL;DR "13 kids at my school broke their phones because of your game, and they still play it cause it's addicting like crack."
SilverSurfer972 5 days ago 0 replies      
So what will happen if his next game hit the top ten again? Shut it down? Why not put his game for charity or just stop releasing games if he really care about how his game affects the players?
icanhasfay 6 days ago 1 reply      
Just something itching me wrong about purposefully making a game excruciatingly difficult and then getting so emotionally affected by their reactions to that difficultly that you are distraught.
kimonos 6 days ago 0 replies      
I totally understand his point. Good luck to him.
AnitoKid 6 days ago 0 replies      
Awesome article! And I kid you not!
Stripe Checkout stripe.com
514 points by strzalek  12 days ago   208 comments top 69
patio11 12 days ago 2 replies      
This is a really bright idea, in that almost all companies do an absolutely bloody abysmal job of implementing their checkout flow. The median testing budget for it is generally zero, unless you scope the population to "large, savvy ecommerce providers." I love the idea of being able to basically take advantage of the herd effect for optimization, and clearly there are non-linear advantages to the Stripe ecosystem, because getting credential/CC pairs into the system most probably increases systemwide spend on them and that is how both merchants and Stripe make their money.

I'm probably going to try this in Bingo Card Creator in an A/B test against my existing purchase flow at some point. I'll be honest: the likelihood of the average English teacher knowing Stripe does give me a bit of pause with regards to the UX and the prospects of my VA having to answer a lot of "Who is Stripe and why are you telling them my credit card number? Did your Googles get a virus?" emails. Still, seems like it is worth testing. Worse comes to worse, all you do is go back to the pre-existing checkout flow, like whatever Stripe.js integration you're using right now, and then you have full control over the experience.

I have seen and supervised successful redesigns of purchase experiences before. They print money. BCC got a 60% or so lift in purchases using a Stripe-powered checkout back in the day, after some hillclimbing, discovery of synergistic effects, and burning the kinks out of my integration. I think there's likely motivational numbers hiding in a lot of your businesses. You should absolutely be testing them on a regular basis yourselves, but this seems to be a decent stab at a way of doing testing without requiring focus/bandwidth or major traffic [+], which are two major reasons people give me for not testing.

[+] I have noticed many people suggesting "You could do per-account multivariate testing on e.g. whether the Remember Me button is a win or not", and feel obligated to point out "That will probably only work for accounts which are doing, minimally, thousands of transactions a month." The great thing about this is that if you've got only 2k visits a month and 40 purchases if we assume that systemwide performance is a good proxy for your performance (and n.b. that's an assumption which is tractable to measurement) then we can still get solid test results by using the other millions of visitors and hundreds of thousands of transactions flowing through the system every $PERIOD.

dirtae 12 days ago 7 replies      
Stripe Checkout is nice, but unfortunately it's not suitable for us, since the "Remember me" checkbox cannot be hidden.

"Remember me" is confusing for users. What is being remembered? By whom? When you're dealing with users who may already be concerned about whether it's secure to enter their credit card number into your website, I feel like the "Remember me" box is just adding another layer of confusion and concern.

I'm surprised that the "Remember me" checkbox can't be hidden, given how focused on their customers Stripe normally is. The "Remember me" checkbox feels like something Stripe is pushing on me to help them with their business objectives, which isn't the vibe I usually get when dealing with Stripe.

toddmorey 12 days ago 3 replies      
The demo of checkout available at https://stripe.com/checkout uses a canvas element for the demo animation. It's a really well done walkthrough. Was it entirely custom-coded or done using a framework / tool to help?
pbiggar 12 days ago 1 reply      
At CircleCI, we've been using Stripe Checkout for quite a while. It was increadibly easy to set up and very high quality (we replaced a hacky ugly checkout page with it), and it looks really professional. That professionalism is really important at the final stage of the funnel.

One of the things that's really interesting about Checkout is that Stripe is actively focusing on increasing the conversion rate for us. Their new layout (with the phone number) has a 20% high conversion rate than the previous version.

jeff18 12 days ago 1 reply      
We've been using Stripe Checkout at Humble Bundle for quite a while and it has been awesome. It is really easy to set up and once a customer has used it, it's incredibly easy to checkout in the future. Every couple weeks I hear about a new A/B test that is running to try to make it even better.
subsection1h 12 days ago 1 reply      
> We've been testing this for the past couple of monthsour hypothesis was that it would increase conversion ratesand we're delighted that it has been confirmed.

pc, do you know if the conversion rates increased for the majority of the subscription-based sites that you monitored?

Our company has a subscription-based service that uses Stripe Checkout, and some of our customers have expressed confusion regarding the "Remember me" feature. Even the CEO of our company expressed confusion initially, and he requested that I ask Stripe for the option of hiding the "Remember me" field.

From their perspective, there's no reason why their payment information should be remembered because they have no reason to enter their payment information again in the future since our service is subscription-based.

I think the "Remember me" feature would be less confusing at an e-commerce site where customers may make additional purchases in the future.

Also, we'd like to be able to hide the customer's email address in Stripe Checkout, not just disable the email address field.

So essentially, we want the old Stripe Checkout that only requested payment information.

mikeg8 12 days ago 1 reply      
Hot damn. The design and experience I felt from this page is overwhelmingly great. I've always loved stripe's design and they continue to blow me away. Really excited to activate our account any day now.
saluki 12 days ago 1 reply      
First off I'm a huge stripe fan I recommend them to clients daily.

I contacted stripe about an option to disable remember me on an existing stripe checkout form at the request of a client.

I was very surprised stripe said that wasn't going to be an option. They said we tested it and it will increase your conversions so it's not going to be optional.

Not very stripe like at all. I can understand it being on by default to move things toward their business goals. And it even looks like a nice feature.

But for it to be required doesn't seem friendly.

Being developer focused I would expect stripe would appreciate having control over the look and feel of your checkout process.

I'd like to hear an explanation of the issue it would cause stripe if it was on by default but they provided a flag to turn it off like some of the other checkout fields.

Thanks again for a great product.

nhangen 12 days ago 1 reply      
Interesting move by Stripe, and I guess it explains why WePay and Balanced choose to focus on the API and not their d2c offerings.

With the 'remember me' feature, Stripe has chosen to impede upon the territory of their developers, which greatly concerns me.

I love their product, but one of the reasons I choose to use them is because of the options that their API provides. Is this a back-end play to eventually cut out developers, or is it designed to help them sell more product? I'm sure Stripe staffers will say that it's the latter, but if that's the case, who is the primary customer for this offering?

Pitic 12 days ago 0 replies      
TL;DR: +1 on making the "Remember me" checkbox optional.

I'll try to offer a slight variation on what others have already mentioned regarding checkout. Like many of them I find Stripe to be very well thought out and easy to implement.As far as Checkout goes, the idea is great but it might need some updates in order to make it more useful to a wider audience.As other mentioned, the "Remember me" function was enough for me to not use Checkout. It is confusing, perhaps because it introduces a mental shift in the user's mind, where out of a sudden they need to understand how this other company "Stripe" will magically keep their info across devices. A way to hide that field wouldn't harm anyone (other than Stripe's ability to do branding).It would also be nice to allow style customization of the form.

downandout 12 days ago 1 reply      
Now if they only did same/next day payouts. The founder once said this was possible if you emailed him. I emailed him and got zero response, from him or anyone else, so I'm guessing they are only doing this for super high volume merchants.
PandaChi 12 days ago 1 reply      
We set it up over here @Patreon and it was EZPZ. One issue that wasn't clear from the documentation -- the "custom" setup (https://stripe.com/docs/checkout#integration-custom) is preferable for so many reasons (and it's no harder to setup, not sure why it's not just the only option) -- it doesn't "take over" the form so that a credit card is required on submit and it also returns a bunch more relevant info like the last 4 digits of the credit card, the expiration date, etc. so you can save and display the card info for future checkouts.
tlogan 11 days ago 0 replies      
May I ask a honest question: why did you add email and remember me? It looks something like VCs will suggest. This makes me no to trust Stripe as platform.

Somebody smart said: the incumbent are wounded by the first disruptor and that disruptor eventually becomes the same as the incumbent and, then, both are killed by the real disruptor.

analog31 11 days ago 1 reply      
Ask HN: I run a tiny home business making widgets. My web page, including order form, is pure HTML.

From what I can tell (looking at page source for the Watsi example), at the very least in order to use Stripe, I have to add some JavaScript to my web page, and of course test it.

Granted, that shouldn't be a big problem for a skilled web developer, but I'm not one.

Am I understanding it right?

reillyse 12 days ago 0 replies      
So couple of comments on stripe checkout.

2 big issues.

First off, the entering of email addresses and remember me stuff is confusing for my customers. We sign up people for a free trial and take their credit card details before we sign them up as users. Even quite technical people have dropped out of the flow after signing in with stripe thinking "I've given them my email" and so people haven't properly finished the signup process because of this (I'm guessing I can probably get this email, however I'd still need to prompt them for a password).

The second big issue is that the constant changing of the form kept breaking various integration/acceptance tests that I had written. This was pretty frustrating as it seemed that I would get a different box from time to time and my tests would start failing.

I get the desire to A/B test, and the desire to build a network of users who have already given their credit card details (obviously amazing for mobile) but it would be nice for us customers if we had a flag where we could switch it off.

rs 12 days ago 0 replies      
Have been using Checkout on https://deployer.vc and https://zoned.io - it's absolutely excellent: very easy to integrate, and looks really good. Will be switching over the other products as well over from PayPal.
dcaunt 12 days ago 0 replies      
This is seriously awesome!

I don't want to detract, but it's a shame that your https://stripe.com/checkout page isn't optimised for mobile. I wanted to have a look at the demo on my phone as well as on my desktop.

colinprince 12 days ago 0 replies      
Killer detail "donate to Watsi"

Well played.

elithrar 12 days ago 1 reply      
I'm particularly happy that iOS Chrome is now a "first class citizen". There were some shaky times before where it (provided you saved your form) showed the mobile view that Safari gets; then where it failed completely (with a JS alert()); where it showed the desktop modal (okay, but a bit janky) and finally where it had a made-for-mobile modal.

I'm a big fan of Checkout otherwise: it's definitely simplified things for me. I'd just like to see more communication regarding changes: I discovered most of those myself from my staging site.

slowernet 12 days ago 1 reply      
Anyone know if they are they using an open source tool to run the intro animation? Can't tell from the minified source.
kailuowang 12 days ago 3 replies      
From your video, I noticed that on a smart phone, you authenticate user by sending a code through text. Isn't that redundant? Whoever has that phone will get that text..
jusben1369 12 days ago 1 reply      
PC is this cross merchant? That is, if one end user of a Stripe merchant stores their card and then that same end user visits another Stripe merchant are they remembered? I see "Stripe stores your card for this site and others" or wording like that.
ajju 12 days ago 0 replies      
Very interesting. Since Checkout brings in an element of the developer contributing a user to Stripe via 'remember me', I'd love to know the tradeoff here.

What is the probability today, that when a user of my app hits Checkout, they will already have a credit card saved which makes signup faster?

corkill 12 days ago 1 reply      
Can this UI/checkout be used for updating CC info as well?
bliti 12 days ago 0 replies      
Does this replace gumroad (and services alike)?
yahelc 12 days ago 0 replies      
I've been using Stripe Checkout now for a few months now, and besides the lack of built-in support for coupon codes, it's pretty perfect.
RafiqM 12 days ago 1 reply      
Checkout is a great way to get started fast (like, in <15 mins).

Multilingual support would be great, and also a more customer friendly interface for those who might not be familiar with things like CVCs. Those two things are reasons I had to stop using checkout and use stripe.js instead.

chenster 12 days ago 0 replies      
Nice, Checkout is great for Ad-hoc payment. I'm using WordPress Easy Digital Download plugin that already has Stripe support. EDD automatically creates user account, and tracks usages, and sends confirmation and download emails to buyers.
steerj92 12 days ago 0 replies      
Stripe Checkout is amazing. Used it for a few months and it's worked extremely well. Glad they are constantly updating it. Looks even better than it did before.
snake_plissken 12 days ago 1 reply      
I still don't completely understand how Stripe can be so cheap. How do they pass charges onto payment processors without incurring some sort of fee that is not equal to the market rate for all other transactions? Is there some sort of fee scale on the processor side that decreases as the transaction amount increases?
ruok0101 12 days ago 0 replies      
We use Stripe checkout at http://leaddyno.com for subscription signups using the custom integration features of the checkout widget. We also use it in our app for customers to update their billing information. Its great they made such an awesome widget and ALSO made it very easy to customize and integrate programmatically! We love it!
nakodari 12 days ago 1 reply      
The checkout on mobile app looks great. Too bad this cannot be used to unlock functionality in the app after payment, it will be rejected by Apple.
rmccue 11 days ago 0 replies      
I'm not a fan of the payment input in a separate window, although I'm not sure if that's just a browser quirk on my end. Much preferred the old modal dialog on the same page.
giulianob 12 days ago 2 replies      
I really want to use Stripe but it would be great if they had a more favorable pricing structure for microtransactions. Paypal, for example, will charge 5%+$0.05 or 2.9%+$0.30 (whichever is lowest) for digital goods transactions.
quaffapint 12 days ago 1 reply      
Looking back at my sales, too many customers use Paypal to simply go to Stripe only.

I wish someone would make something that is as easy to use as Stripe but also offers Paypal. The few I've seen are still everything and the kitchen sink, not just a simple stripe + paypal combo.

Lightbody 12 days ago 0 replies      
Is this different than "regular Stripe"? I watched the quick demo and I thought that was what Stripe has been doing for a while now?
kaa2102 12 days ago 0 replies      
I am getting ready to launch a product. I was using Wepay until they eliminated their checkout form. Switched to Stripe, read up on the API, and implemented the form. Now you tell me their is a simple checkout widget available. Sigh.
thebiglebrewski 12 days ago 0 replies      
I use Stripe Checkout at postperfect.co. The only thing I really wish it could handle was a discount code implementation, which I had to do myself unfortunately.
blantonl 12 days ago 0 replies      
Carl Icahn's "request" to spin Paypal out of Ebay is probably looking better with this announcement.

Paypal really needs a new leadership team that promotes innovation. Stripe is cleaning up, and I'm about to take a lot of business to Stripe...

ROFISH 12 days ago 1 reply      
Is there a method of inserting the address if it's already known? (Such as saved customer data or another form element?)
tindrlabs 12 days ago 0 replies      
Now I'd just love for you all to make capable of having products attached to it and operate like a shopping cart ;) -- But seriously your designs look so good, I'd actually want that.
aslakhellesoy 12 days ago 0 replies      
Stripe checkout is great, but I really miss the ability to add custom fields to the form, such as VAT number and Company name.

I realise that allowing to add a whole bunch of fields can hamper usability, but I have to collect the VAT number in order to figure out how much to charge the customer.

Does anyone have a recommendation about what to do here? Roll our own form and lose all the nice stuff from Stripe Checkout?Display a new form for VAT after displaying checkout, and charge after that?

return0 12 days ago 1 reply      
How about taking a photo of the credit card and using OCR to fill up the form?
akumen 12 days ago 2 replies      
How's Stripe for SaaS billing of multiple plans with option to pay on a monthly, quaterly and annual basis with appropriate discounts?
BvS 11 days ago 0 replies      
Does this work internationally (eg international phone numbers + translated explanation)?
chuckouellet 11 days ago 0 replies      
If you need a more advanced shopping cart, there is Snipcart that can connect to Stripe, https://snipcart.com

The cart is fully responsive so it works on mobile as well!

I am one of the founders, let me know if you have any questions.

vassvdm 12 days ago 1 reply      
Hey pc, do you plan to add escrow to Stripe Checkout at some point?
scott_karana 12 days ago 0 replies      
Looks like a Humble Bundle 12 is inbound soon, based on their screenshot! :)
scurvy 12 days ago 0 replies      
While this is admirable, it flies in the face of security-based UX. For years we've taught people to only send sensitive information over SSL, and to look for the lock, green bar, etc.

Now you're asking people to blindly punch information into a box and hit send?

koa 11 days ago 0 replies      

I love the UX for the stripe checkout. It seems like the integration script creates a full page iframe allowing the widget to have full control over the UX. Is there any guide to building a similar full page iframe widget for other applications?

grimmfang 12 days ago 0 replies      
I know it's been said but this is a absolute masterpiece. Thank you for inspiration Stripe.
x13 11 days ago 0 replies      
Stripe is pretty sweet, and we're in their beta to receive funds in two days. Any idea how they actually do this? Two is certainly faster that the normal seven days, and I'd love any insight or theories from the HN community.
dmjio 12 days ago 0 replies      
If you put $0.00 as the amount it changes the button text to say "add card"
piratebroadcast 11 days ago 0 replies      
Can this form be used for recurring billing situations? Like $1.99 a month?
benmcnelly 12 days ago 0 replies      
My name being Ben and a stripe, dribble & humble bundle user, I had to open in an incognito window to double check that it wasn't scraping my name somehow..
chenster 12 days ago 2 replies      
I suppose your site still needs to have SSL in order to use Checkout?
hoprocker 11 days ago 0 replies      
Awesome. Kind of like an embeddable software Square. Bravo.
betadreamer 12 days ago 0 replies      
Love the design and simple integration.

Would be exciting to see a shopping cart / coupon features some time in the future.

useraccount 12 days ago 0 replies      
I think Stripe just ate Gumroad's lunch.
badgercapital 12 days ago 0 replies      
Stripe is awesome. We use stripe on VidFall.com... our alpha launch is on 3/10, would love to see you there.
igotwater 12 days ago 1 reply      
Does anyone know if there is a similar API that would allow people to send money to other people?
castlegrove 12 days ago 0 replies      
Released just as I finish our custom checkout process...but hey, I'm glad to see it!
pyrrhotech 12 days ago 0 replies      
how does this differ from V.me by Visa?
higherpurpose 12 days ago 0 replies      
Is there a Stripe plugin for this for Woocommerce themes?
higherpurpose 12 days ago 0 replies      
When is Stripe coming to the whole EU?
AliAdams 12 days ago 0 replies      
I dont get it - Why is this different from stripe.js ?
api 12 days ago 0 replies      
This has existed for a while, and I'm using it on my site. Didn't know it was "beta." Works great. (Still in test mode though, have not yet exited beta so I'm not taking anyone's money yet.)
notastartup 12 days ago 1 reply      
so how do I integrate this to my website ? I am currently using https://www.paymentiframe.com/ because the form looks really nice like a credit card form.
el_guapo 12 days ago 1 reply      
too bad you can't dynamically change the price in the form.
Goodbye Popcorn Time medium.com
512 points by redox_  3 days ago   305 comments top 57
nasalgoat 3 days ago 8 replies      
On the topic of pirated content, I was an early contributor to the Veronica Mars movie Kickstarter, and I received my "digital download" today.

It consisted of a link to sign up to two separate websites to download a specific player that would stream the video for me on supported platforms only. Also, the HD version might not be available right away.

I checked and the torrent of the HD version had been online for 30 minutes already.

Why do they bother with this bullshit? It makes no logical sense and all it does is hurt them.

mentos 3 days ago 16 replies      
> Piracy is not a people problem. Its a service problem.

I'd say its a pricing problem.

Right now 'The Wolf of Wall Street' is available from Amazon Instant Video at $20. On your popular torrent site virtually the same product is available for $0 + (riskOfGettingCaught * $1,000,000 fine) = $0.000001 ?

You can either try to increase the riskOfGettingCaught or decrease the legal price.

I think the industry should do what Hulu has done over the past 5 years. Give the product away virtually for free, collect an enormous user base while you starve/kill the demand for the equivalent torrents, slowly increase the price of the service until you find equilibrium, then profit.

But hey, maybe piracy isn't really a problem? The greatest assumption people make is that because someone downloaded a movie illegally they were willing to buy it for $20. Which is false. I'd have to imagine that selling 'The Wolf of Wall Street' for $20 on Amazon is more profitable than selling it for say $19 and capturing a few pirate consumers.

But I wonder if theres a number between $0 and $19 that captures enough of the piraters to be more profitable than $20?

programminggeek 3 days ago 6 replies      
Did anyone believe that Popcorn Time was going to end any other way than this?

Either they were going to be shut down by their own choice, or their hand would be forced by outside litigation. Just because something is legal doesn't mean companies won't spend millions of dollars to make your life miserable because of what you built.

Jugurtha 2 days ago 3 replies      
There's a saying that goes : Don't buy fish in the ocean.

Studios and all assume that people are thieves.

There are a number of cases to think of:

Tim Ferriss teamed with.. BitTorrent to distribute his latest book (4 Hour Chef). He wrote a detailed article on his experience and the correlation between BitTorrent downloads and sales (number driven he is, he tracked that real-time).

The model was the second-shareware model of early DOS games (you get part of the content, and if you like it, you buy the rest). And people bought it. There was an ad on BitTorrent clients. I haven't bought the book yet, but I haven't even downloaded the free content since I'm saving the thing for later.

There was Radiohead releasing "In Rainbows" as a "Pay what you want" which is extremely risky (since you're giving all the content). And yet, I'll let the reader look up the numbers (it ended being pretty lucrative, since a lot of people pre-ordered it).

Studios and Publishers seem to forget that a lot of human beings would pay if it were easy. One of the reasons I got a MasterCard recently is to pay for books I've read. I live in a country where English isn't spoken, so there's no way I can find them in libraries, I tried to buy on Amazon, they told me they can't ship it where I live.

Second: It's ridiculous to expect of me to buy a movie I haven't watched, or a book I haven't read.

Bear in mind that even with content so easily to be pirated, most movies, and I mean like 99% of them, I wouldn't waste bandwidth to download them. I swear that I wouldn't even watch them if I were paid. Why ? Because a movie is 1h30 to 2h minimum and my life is made of hours and minutes and seconds. I don't like to waste my time. It's not like I'm immortal.

So most movies are crap to being with, not everyone is De Niro.

An other reason: Content is hardly accessible the legal way because their platforms suck big time. I give an example ?

Say there's an interview on NBC or CNN (though free).. I wouldn't watch it on CNN or NBC, because their site is so slow, their players are horrible you want to punch your laptop. So I go to Youtube and find that video and watch it without a glitch.

So I wouldn't even watch free content on the platform of the provider of this free content, because his platform sucks !

If your website is straining someone's computer's resources and making the fan go crazy, you got to ask yourself tough questions (and probably fire some people).

I gladly pay for things. I donate on random websites just because I want to, or because I liked something, or because they had a funny thing, etc.

fjcaetano 3 days ago 2 replies      
It doesn't matter. The code is already out there.

Respectfully, I think the authors didn't think much and were kinda dumb. The project had a great potential, it was barely legal, they bought a fight with the media industry, but the cherry-on-top is that they putted their asses on the line. They shouldn't have used their real names. Anonymise your accounts and be happy.

But as I said, it doesn't matter. Everyone already has a fork of their repo (which has over 70 open pull-requests) and any one of these forks may become the new "official". It won't stop. The gears are already running, much like bitcoin. Fortunately.

galapago 3 days ago 3 replies      
There is an encrypted message [1] in the last commit of their website (popcorn-time.github.io).

[1] https://github.com/popcorn-time/popcorn-time.github.io/commi...

User8712 3 days ago 2 replies      
Well, this is disappointing. It seemed like a nicely designed application, with an enthusiastic development team behind it. And now, within days, it's gone.

If they wanted to avoid piracy, I think it might have had some potential going the legal route as well. It would be a nice interface to browse legal movies, documentaries, web series, etc.

Strange decision, I could see a company like Netflix buying them out for a rather large sum of money, within a short period of time.

As far as using it as a stepping stone to future jobs, why wouldn't they run the application longer? They pulled the plug before it became a widespread success. It they waited longer, the name Popcorn Time would actually be recognizable, which would be great for their rsum, kind of like saying you developed Napster. Now, they'll mention they worked on Popcorn Time, and have to explain to everyone it was an app to stream torrents, that had a brief shelf life.

They really should have road this out longer. Even the name was catchy. Someone else is going to fork the project and achieve the success they would have earned.

MikeTaylor 3 days ago 2 replies      
I wonder what will happen to the code-base. It's pretty hard to make an application go away when there are many checkouts of its git module around the world.
leot 3 days ago 1 reply      
It's better that the Popcorn Time developers leave now than later. By leaving now they can take advantage of all the attention and get a great fork going.
drawkbox 3 days ago 2 replies      
Sadly, existing then shutting down so fast will only hurt the whole reason they set out. Lawyers and middle men are licking their chops and toasting champagne and caviar dreams at the idea of such fast work on their part.

It did prove once again that demand for easy services is desired but lots of that were also because it was free.

j_baker 3 days ago 4 replies      
> Popcorn Time as a project is legal. We checked.

The law isn't quite so black and white. There are a lot of different theories good lawyers can come up with. At the end of the day, the only thing that's legal is what a court says is legal.

notdonspaulding 2 days ago 1 reply      
Here's what I don't understand. I pay Netflix $8/month to stream movies and TV shows in HD. From that $8 Netflix has to pay their hosting expenses, maintain a profit margin, and pay licensing fees to Hollywood.

Now a technology comes along that in several ways delivers a better service than Netflix to consumers, for absolutely no cost to Hollywood. Is there any reason Hollywood shouldn't just release content to torrents, and sell an unlimited license for $8, $16, $24, or ?? a month to consumers living in countries which respect intellectual property?

I would gladly pay some amount of money to the content creators if it would buy me Popcorn-time service in a legal manner. I would say the vast majority of Americans are in this boat. They want the service that Popcorn Time used to provide, and they'll pay a price for it. It makes absolutely no sense to me that Hollywood hasn't figured out how to make an absolute killing off of this free infrastructure by merely selling legal amnesty in the form of bittorrent-streaming licenses.

plg 3 days ago 1 reply      
We need someone rich and powerful to champion this cause, to put their name, influence, reputation behind it. We need an Elon Musk or a Mark Zuckerburg to just do it, and say go ahead, try suing me, I am going to change the system.
theschwa 3 days ago 1 reply      
I find it interesting that this is essentially a web app front end, made with backbone.js, for the node module peerflix, but peerflix hasn't received any heat.

It seems to me their only "fault" was making things too convenient.

usaphp 3 days ago 0 replies      
I don't understand why it got so much attention, it looks just like a ripoff from zona.ru, even the frontend website looks similar. And zona has been out there for quite some time already.
izzydata 3 days ago 0 replies      
I'd pay 1-5 dollars for a digital download to a video file that I can move and put on anything I own in any way that I want. I won't pay 20-40 dollars for a video I can watch in very limited ways or is a physical disk. It is just too inconvenient to be worth it. There is also a consistency problem. I want everything to be from the same source or in the same format.
irunbackwards 3 days ago 1 reply      
Anyone interested in the app can still build it from their repo.


mncolinlee 1 day ago 0 replies      
It's deeply frustrating that Bittorrent is still synonymous with piracy just like MP3 was in the 1990s. It's simply a protocol. One may use a technology like this for very good purposes, including independent film distribution. When I worked at Pearson, we could not convince network personnel to allow corporate Bittorrent for media content distribution to international sites because they were afraid auditors would balk at it for its connotations. It was clearly the best technology for the job and auditors have accepted it for similar uses at companies like Ebay and Paypal.
Lambdanaut 3 days ago 2 replies      
Time to fork and continue development.
jrochkind1 2 days ago 0 replies      
> Popcorn Time as a project is legal. We checked. Four Times.

What the heck does that mean? Four times, eh? You mean you asked four different lawyers? You asked the same lawyer four times? You got sued four times and won? (Obviously not). You 'checked' by googling around for legal information... four times? You asked your cousin who took a class on copyright once? Four cousins? You emailed the MPAA... four times?

I don't think the law works like you think it works.

> Our experiment has put us at the doors of endless debates about piracy and copyright, legal threats and the shady machinery that makes us feel in danger for doing what we love. And thats not a battle we want a place in.

So, if after your 'four times checking', it still caught you by surprise that there'd be debates and legal threats... I don't think you were checking in the right places.

amirouche 3 days ago 1 reply      
Of course, they received money. So much coverage and stop it here? Who would believe that they are honest? As if the guy who invented torrent stopped working on torrent...

There is a standard for this techno, it's called PPSP [1] it covers both "free" network (with a DHT tracker) and controlled networks (the one required for distributing protected content). There is even an free software that is based on it [2] and a c++ library [3]. It is was developed during P2PNext [4]. During this research some one achieved sub-second DHT lookup and now works at Spotify.

If you are interested in the subject of P2P maybe "P2P virtual network" or "second life P2P" search might interest you.

My interest is for the time being a graph database over a DHT. I am at the very early stage in terms of code. But maybe this might give you an idea of what I'm looking for [5].

[1] http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ppsp/[2] http://www.tribler.org/trac[3] http://libswift.org/[4] http://p2pnext.eu/[5] https://github.com/amirouche/no

cottonseed 3 days ago 1 reply      
I thought it was a desktop app that used 3rd party torrent movie search APIs (YIFI, OpenSubtitles, etc.) to stream torrents. How does a desktop app "shut down"? I must be misunderstanding part of the architecture. Did they have a centralized server? What did they use it for?

I know they took the down the download link. People are reporting the app no longer works.

gcv 3 days ago 0 replies      
Could this have been the intent all along? Make a decent first cut of the code, generate a ton of publicity, then generate a ton more publicity note the vagueness about why exactly they shut down then leave the code in reasonable working order up on GitHub. Now a thousand hard-to-shutdown forks will bloom.
tzaman 3 days ago 3 replies      
Is it just me or is there something they aren't telling us?
Oculus 3 days ago 1 reply      
I don't think this was Popcorn's choice. I'd be willing to bet their hand is being forced here.
api 3 days ago 8 replies      
I've scanned this whole thread and there's not a single post that is at all critical of the intentions behind Popcorn Time. I guess you're all okay with a world where content creators don't eat.

Or do you have a better idea than copyright? If so, by all means let's hear it. I promise you that the person who solves that problem in an accessible way will be the next Mark Zuckerberg, or at least Tim Berners-Lee. Every single artist, musician, movie studio, and producer in the world will beat a path to your door, frantically scrambling for their checkbooks and trembling as they hover over a check with the pen asking "how much?!? how much!??" They will break into your house and shove cash down your throat while you sleep.

I know a good number of writers, artists, and musicians. Do any of you six-figure-earners have any idea how insanely hard it is to even make a living doing anything "creative?" I mean a basic living: food, shelter, occasional transportation. Nothing infuriates these people more than clueless techies with (to them) unimaginable earning power braying on about how they should live off charity or touring revenues so "information can be free." You try it, and no open source does not count. Open source is a resume item that helps you land your next six-figure gig, not to mention the fact that it can be monetized in other ways... ways that unlike tip jars actually work. (Services, training, dual-licensing, etc.)

Oh sure, yeah, the record industries and Hollywood make more than the artists. Everyone knows that. In the past, the record company or the studio made most of the money and the artist got too little. But now with piracy the artist gets zero. Is that a step in the right direction? We've gone from artists having to suck up to shady promoters to artists not even having shady promoters to suck up to.

Why is there so much crappy music on the radio? Because the people who like it are either too young or too dumb to pirate it.

And this is coming from someone who's written peer to peer apps. I am pretty liberal in this area. I do not believe a technology should be interfered with just because it could potentially be used for piracy. If we did that, we'd have to shut down the whole Internet. But there's a difference between designing an app that can be used for piracy and designing one whose entire focus and modus operandi is to promote piracy front and center. It may not be illegal but it's a dick move. Let's see you work for "voluntary contributions," assholes.

To add douche to the nozzle, there's people in here congratulating the Popcorn Time authors on how brilliant they are by leveraging this for publicity. That's wonderful. Now these folks who did little more than hack together some node.js scripts with a front end will go out and make well above $100k while musicians struggle to pay rent for tiny closets in the ghetto. So the MPAA might have harassed them. Boo hoo. Go blow your nose into your hordes of cash.

Maybe the end of copyright as we know it is technologically inevitable. But in the meantime it shows more than a little bit of ignorance, naivet, and douchebaggery to congratulate each other on destroying peoples' livelihoods en masse. Maybe instead all you hackers could bend your considerable intellects toward trying to solve this problem in a productive way that actually helps creators get paid while also making it easy for people to enjoy their work. You'd be loved, not to mention wealthy and historically legendary.

Noxchi 3 days ago 0 replies      
I was trying to use Popcorn yesterday and it just plain sucked. I then installed XBMC and XBMCTorrent plugin, and everything was buttery smooth.

Popcorn is built on A LOT of immature technology, which makes it very slow. XBMCtorrent on the other hand uses mature, tested, compiled libraries and platforms.

GBiT 2 days ago 0 replies      
Goodbye Popcorn Time, hello Popcorn app - https://github.com/yify
gulbrandr 2 days ago 0 replies      
The best part:

Weve shown that people will risk fines, lawsuits and whatever consequences that may come just to be able to watch a recent movie in slippers. Just to get the kind of experience they deserve.

And maybe, that asking nicely for a few bucks a month to watch whichever movie you want is a bit better than that.

Popcorn Time is shutting down today. Not because we ran out of energy, commitment, focus or allies. But because we need to move on with our lives.

Our experiment has put us at the doors of endless debates about piracy and copyright, legal threats and the shady machinery that makes us feel in danger for doing what we love. And thats not a battle we want a place in.

badman_ting 3 days ago 1 reply      
I never used the thing, but people seemed pretty impressed by it. This post is a mess though, it's all over the place.
cantbecool 3 days ago 0 replies      
I was hoping this service was going to take off. I created something similar, a simple movie torrent search engine: http://www.moviemagnet.net I hope people are not discouraged by Popcorn's exit, since torrent based applications should force the issue, old media companies to change their archaic distribution models.
f47h3r 2 days ago 0 replies      
Don't worry, YIFI is on it...


edit Link to new github repo for YIFY:


GigabyteCoin 3 days ago 0 replies      
I don't understand. I thought Popcorn Time was FOSS with it's source on GitHub that downloaded all it's data from external APIs.

How can it possibly just "say goodbye"?

Is this the main developers disowning it or what? I imagine thousands of other devs now have local forks of it on their home machine and can/will continue to develop and release it?

oh_sigh 3 days ago 1 reply      
I guess I'm the odd man out on reddit, er hackernews, but it doesn't seem too brave or incredible to build an app which is used to primarily stream stolen content.
baby 3 days ago 0 replies      
I thought it was decentralized enough that you just needed the software for the job. Seems like it used a centralized point since I can't use it now.
kayoone 3 days ago 1 reply      
Believing that piracy is solely a Service problem is pretty naive or downright ignorant. Yes, some people pirate because other means of purchasing the content in question are inferior but lets face it: People will always prefer the free option
baxter001 3 days ago 0 replies      
A nice wrapper around something like btcat: http://jordic.com/btcat/btcat is all that's really needed, a great part of popcorn time was purely in the marketing and presentation, the technology is relatively straight forwards.

Now it's clear there's a demand for similar tools this isn't a tide that can be stopped.

Tycho 2 days ago 0 replies      
Weve shown that people will risk fines, lawsuits and whatever consequences that may come just to be able to watch a recent movie in slippers. Just to get the kind of experience they deserve.

What? Why do they deserve this?

darksim905 3 days ago 3 replies      
Nobody has a god damn spine in the tech world. These guys could've stood up & been different - the fact they shut down shortly after being featured on here, Reddit & other large websites shows that they weren't passionate at all & weren't willing to standup for their users at all. Ridiculous.
NDizzle 3 days ago 0 replies      
That may be gone but you can still use http://www.nzbplayer.com/ if you absolutely must watch things as you download them.
ialex 3 days ago 0 replies      
Hey this is not the end, it is an opportunity to sell this technology to some company that has problems streaming video PopCorn Time is just the proof that it works and it can be used to solve real world problems. So i hope you find a successful exit.
elwell 3 days ago 0 replies      
Am interested in details, but none given.
manish_gill 3 days ago 1 reply      
I installed it 2 days ago. Was gonna try it out tonight, and now this. :(
staticelf 3 days ago 0 replies      
Why the fuck did they host the servers themselves? Was this planned all the time?
redox_ 3 days ago 1 reply      
elwell 3 days ago 0 replies      
Well that was fast.
denimboy 3 days ago 1 reply      
try this:


ghx 3 days ago 0 replies      
Kinda random, but I associate the word "popcorn" with time, because when I was a kid growing up in the Bay Area, we always dialed POP-CORN (767-2676) to get the current time. Probably just a coincidence?
userbinator 3 days ago 0 replies      
Goodbye Popcorn Time, Hello Streisand Effect.
whatshaup 2 days ago 0 replies      
You know what really grinds my gears? You actually give so much credit to Popcorn Time for "inventing" something that the damn europeans have for a thousand years...OK, maybe for americans is Heaven on earth cause they pay for damn everything but it's not like they invented fire! It's the same story as Twitter in Europe. Everyone thought it's just another social network, then it moves to US and BOOM. I should start "porting" some ideas then cause you just proved a point I have for 8 years now.
jacobbudin 3 days ago 0 replies      
> We became the underdog that would fight for the consumer.

That's like saying "Sure, we burned down the bank, but we did it for the frustrated account holders."

mayanman 3 days ago 0 replies      
Mine does not work anymore, just spins. Mine also says Popcorn time Goodbye was just released you should get it now!
514d3 2 days ago 0 replies      
Old working version: https://mega.co.nz/#!aoB02BwK!AXxujXpZ2AJPe9YUwYDs1EYM6BBnWw...

Apparently they patched it after this release so they could shut it down; tested the one above a moment ago and it still works

robinhoodexe 3 days ago 1 reply      
How long till someone forks it...
frade33 3 days ago 0 replies      
Just today I thought, can we an iPad version of this app. nevermind.
jcslzr 2 days ago 0 replies      
i think the solution is going to be the spotify model for movies.
IAmNotBorat 3 days ago 2 replies      
I hope someone from Hollywood reads that.
Ask HN: What happens to older developers?
494 points by JeffJenkins  7 days ago   342 comments top 107
bane 7 days ago 20 replies      
It seems that they go a few directions:

The most common seems to be to try and generalize, because relearning most of your job skills every few years starts to get annoying the 20th time you've had to do it. It's different when you are younger and everything is new, you just chalk up a major tooling change as just something else to learn. But when the next hot platform or architecture or whatever comes out you get tired of running in exactly the same place. You also start to get a long view on things, where all these new things coming out don't really seem to offer any advantage to you that keeps development fun. It's just more and more layers of abstraction and you start to see the nth demo of WebGL maxing out a 4 core modern GPU system doing exactly what you did 20 years ago with a single 32-bit core, 1/5th the transistor count and all in software. So how do you generalize? One word: management. You start to take over running things at a meta-level. You don't program, you manage people who program. You don't program, you design architectures that need to be programmed. You don't program, you manage standards bodies that people will be programming against. It's not a higher level, more abstract, language you go for, it's a higher level, more abstract job function. The pay is usually better and it's a natural career progression most organizations are built around. There's lots of different "meta" paths you can take. And because most of the skills in them will be new to you in your late 30s, 40s or 50s, they're at least interesting to learn.

The problem for some people is that these kinds of more generalized roles put you in charge of systems that do not have the sort of clear-cut deterministic behavior you remember from your programming days. Some folks like this, and look at it as a new challenge. Some hate it and wish for their programming days again. YMMV

So the next most common path is to just become more and more senior as a developer, keeping down in the weeds and using decades of experience to cut through trendy BS to build solid performant stuff. These folks sometimes take on "thought leader" positions, act as architects or whatnot. Quite often though industry biases will engage and they'll be put on duty keeping some legacy system alive because their deep knowledge of the system lets the company put 1 guy maintaining half a million lines of code in perpetuity vs. 10 young guys maintaining the same, who all wanting to leave after a few years to build more skills. The phenomenon is best seen as the ancient grey beard COBOL mainframe guys. Some people love this work, they can stay useful and "in the game", but some hate it because it comes with the cachet of being stale and not keeping up with the times. YMMV

Probably the third most common path is to simply branch out and start your own gig. A consultancy or something where you get to work on different things in different places on short engagements. The money is good while it's coming in and you get to make your own hours. At some point you decide to keep doing this till retirement (if you can keep finding work) or to grow your business, in which case you generally end up doing the meta-management thing. There are thousands of these little one-man development shops like this and I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is more common than third on my list.

Probably the next most common path is to just get out of development entirely. The kinds of logic, planning and reasoning skills, plus the attention to detail required to be even a half-assed developer, can be extremely valuable in other fields. Lots of developers go into Systems security, Business Analysis, Hardware, etc. With a little schooling you can get into various Finance, Scientific or Engineering disciplines without too much fuss. The money isn't always better in these other fields, but sometimes the job satisfaction is. Again YMMV.

bwanab 7 days ago 8 replies      
I'm 60+. I've been coding my whole career and I'm still coding. Never hit a plateau in pay, but nonetheless, I've found the best way to ratchet up is to change jobs which has been sad, but true - I've left some pretty decent jobs because somebody else was willing to pay more. This has been true in every decade of my career.

There's been a constant push towards management that I've always resisted. People I've known who have gone into management generally didn't really want to be programming - it was just the means to kick start their careers. The same is true for any STEM field that isn't academic. If you want to go into management, do it, but if you don't and you're being pushed into it, talk to your boss. Any decent boss wants to keep good developers and will be happy to accomodate your desire to keep coding - they probably think they're doing you a favor by pushing you toward management.

I don't recommend becoming a specialist in any programming paradigm because you don't know what is coming next. Be a generalist, but keep learning everything you can. So far I've coded professionally in COBOL, Basic, Fortran, C, Ada, C++, APL, Java, Python, PERL, C#, Clojure and various assembly languages each one of which would have been tempting to become a specialist in. Somebody else pointed out that relearning the same thing over and over in new contexts gets old and that can be true, but I don't see how it can be avoided as long as there doesn't exist the "one true language". That said, I've got a neighbor about my age who still makes a great living as a COBOL programmer on legacy systems.

Now for the important part if you want to keep programming and you aren't an academic. If you want to make a living being a programmer, you can count on a decent living, but if you want to do well and have reasonable job security you've got to learn about and become an expert in something else - ideally something you're actually coding. Maybe it's banking, or process control, or contact management - it doesn't matter as long as it's something. As a developer, you are coding stuff that's important to somebody or they wouldn't be paying you to do it. Learn what you're coding beyond the level that you need just to get your work done. You almost for certain have access to resources since you need them to do your job, and if you don't figure out how to get them. Never stop learning.

compay 7 days ago 2 replies      
I'm 41. I also worry about ageism but so far I don't feel that it has affected me yet.

> Do you have to go into management to continue progressing upwards in pay and influence? I know this isn't the case at some companies (e.g. Google), but is it rare or common to progress as an individual contributor?

That has not been the case for me. I'm currently doing software development for a startup - the same thing I've done my whole career. I do get asked to provide guidance and help for younger devs sometimes, but I don't mind that one bit, it's actually very personally fulfilling.

> Is there a plateau in pay? Is there a drop in pay switching jobs after a certain number of years experience because places are looking for 5+ instead of 20+?

For me, so far no. I'm currently making the highest salary I've made yet in my career. I've been here for a year and a half.

My age has not been an obstacle to finding a job yet; I've had plenty of interviews and offers over the last 5 years and have chosen the places I wanted to work, rather than the places where I had to. It's worth noting that I'm white, male and American, so I realize I'm less likely to suffer from workplace/interview discrimination with US companies than people in other demographics.

> Is becoming a specialist rather than a generalist the answer?

I'm pretty much a generalist web developer, I do backend and front end work, On a nearly daily basis I work with Ruby, Javascript, Postgres, Haml, Chef, CSS, Sass, Shell scripting, etc. I didn't have to become a specialist to get my job, although the fact that I've been doing Ruby for about 10 years did help me get it. I think the answer is, just to be good at what you do, whether that's as a specialist or a generalist.

> Are older devs not looking for new jobs because they have families and want more stability/are focussed elsewhere?

> What are the older people in your workplace doing?

I have two kids, 5 and 2. My coworkers are evenly split between man and women, are mostly in their 30's to 50's and most of them have kids too. A coworker of mine recently returned from a ~5 month maternity leave after having triplets, and we've been flexible about her work hours/conditions because we didn't want to lose her. So we're definitely not averse to having employees with families. I look for companies that have this kind of attitude to work at. It's not as hard to find as you might think; as long as you're good at what you do people will probably want to hire you.

I'm not sure to what extent my company is "typical" but you can at least count me as one "older" developer who is happily still working as a developer, was able to have a family without harming my career, and didn't get pushed into management.

All in all I would say, your early 30's is still young. Statistically you've got more than half of your life ahead of you, likely the best part, too. As we get older I suspect the demographics of our profession will change along with us, and there will be more older people in roles we stereotype as being for younger people.At least that's what I keep telling myself!

coldcode 7 days ago 4 replies      
I'm almost 57 and still write real code that people use and employers make money from. The trick is to continuously learn new stuff. My whole career has always been spent at the leading edge of whatever was most important at the time. Sure, people sometimes don't want to interview you because they assume you are old and pointless, but that's usually when they don't even read your resume, blog, linked in or whatever you have. There are people who think that way, and there are people who recognize ability and experience matter. The trick is finding the latter while trying to avoid the former.

Some people don't learn anything new and become obsolete, or become management, or even have to start over away from programming. It's not easy to stay out front but you are the only one who can do it.

ap22213 7 days ago 1 reply      
I'm 38, and Software Dev. is as lucrative as ever.

I've never done any 'IT work', and I've focused almost entirely on product development, over my 16 year career.

As a salary, I think I have plateaued at 160K, which is good enough for me. With 'adjustments for inflation', that's usually an extra $5K increase per year. There are people who make more than me, I know. For example, a guy I work with probably makes $200K (and he doesn't have a college degree).

There are always 'business problems' to solve with software, and there is always software to maintain. A lot of software never 'ends' - it just keeps going on, or dies dramatically, replaced by something similar. There's never been a better time to be a developer.

At a certain point, you'll have to become something like a 'manager'. For me, this is more of a 'tech lead' / 'architect' sort of role. I'm responsible for the quality, functionality, road-maps, integration, etc. I'm responsible for understanding the business domain, in and out. I'm responsible for managing the parts of the system, and ensuring that they all work together. I have to lead meetings, give presentations, work with the field and customers.

However, all of that is a small part, for me. I still code a good 85% of the time.

I get somewhere around 10-15 recruiters contacting me per week. So, I believe the job market is hot. But, I am really comfortable where I am. I work from home, and I run an entirely distributed team. We meet in person, when we think we need to meet. Things go very smoothly, because we're all experienced devs, and we fit together culturally.

I'm far from an 'amazing dev'. I don't have a slick github account. I don't run any important open source projects. I just know how to do a lot of different things, I am very efficient, and I have a great track record for success. I know on any given week, hundreds of thousands of people use software that I had created, and that makes me feel good.

KentBeck 7 days ago 3 replies      
I'm about to turn 53. I spend most of my day coaching younger programmers at Facebook (because they're almost all younger). We pair program and talk. I work on speculative projects, some consumer-oriented, some programming tools and some infrastructure. I also research software design and the diffusion of innovation.

I took a 10 year excursion into being a guru, but I'm technical now and intend to stay that way. I love programming. I've never been a manager. I suppose that capped my pay, but I'd rather be satisfied with my work. I haven't noticed a pay drop with age, but my experience may not be typical.

The most important factor for me has been to keep coding. It gets harder. I have noticed a definite drop in my long-term memory, concentration, and general cognition, but I compensate by being better at picking important problems, being able to pattern match a large library of experiences, and not panicking. As Miracle Max said, I've seen worse.

I started learning Haskell a couple of years ago, and that has really helped expand my programming style. I still don't like it, but it's good for me. I'm also learning React and the reactive style of coding UIs. That's also a brain stretcher.

jawngee 7 days ago 1 reply      
I'm 41, but I don't consider myself old.

Either way, I'm semi-retired. I do client work (iOS and experiential retailing installs) for about half the year, then I do my own projects for the other half.

I live in Vietnam but commute to NYC for certain client projects, so maybe 25% of the year there, the rest in Vietnam.

Prior to the move, I did 20 years focused mostly on new media/creative tech so my skill range crosses through design to code. This is pretty rare in NYC, so it's never been a struggle finding work, age has never come into the equation.

It's probably an arrogant assertion, but if you are exceptional at what you do, none of this nonsense about age will matter at all, so one should always strive to be exceptional in their careers. For me, that's involved 18 hour days, 7 days a week of working, learning, exploring, making mistakes and maintaining a healthy curiosity about how things work. Every piece of software I see, or motion graphic I see, I am constantly deconstructing in my head.

But I've worked with a lot of dudes that treat this as their jobs, and those guys are on a trajectory I don't understand, so maybe I'm not qualified to comment. I suspect if you're mid-level or worst, or that is the most you've aspired to contrary to talent or skills, you'll be set to pasture at some point.

The great thing about this move to Vietnam is that a single day at my day rate pretty much pays for an entire month of living here. So those months I'm not doing client work, that's a shit ton of free time to throw myself into technical and creative challenges that you wouldn't normally encounter working on projects for others.

As an example, I've always been fascinated with the tablet as a publishing platform but have always felt the current toolset a (adobe dps and magplus specifically) are glorified PDF generators that completely ignore the unique user experience properties of the device. So I spent a good six months in Vietnam working on the problem. And now I have publishing platform that eclipses Adobe DPS on a lot of different levels. I also publish a digital only fashion magazine here in Saigon (eating your own dog food). So life is kind of random.

jhspaybar 7 days ago 4 replies      
I honestly don't understand this, I'm sure there is ageism, but when I'm reading resumes and interviewing I love the more experienced developers! The few times I've seen a solid 10 years experience rsum followed up by a solid phone screen it has been a feeding frenzy. So much so that my company usually can't even move fast enough to get an offer in the ring :(

On the other hand, it's really obvious when someone has 10 years of experience staying invisible and just hanging on. Those are the ones that get ignored in my experience, and for good reason.

jorgeleo 7 days ago 0 replies      
I am in my 40s, and this is my experience:

I work as an independent contractor, and my pay has gone up

I still code every day, but my understanding of what is important has changed a lot.

I care much more about the solution as a whole than the technology. While the technology is important, most clients care more about correct results. From the business side, nobody has ever tell me "Thank God you used TDD over Angular with a no Sql database". But on the other side, I have seen software that crashes every other time they run, but big companies still willing to pay in the 6 figures to use, because when it runs, it solves a very complex problem for them. So understanding the whole solution, and why is valuable, has become much more important. And that is what has kept me as a valuable individual contributor.

I went into management for a while, found a few cultural differences, like that Indian woman are way smarter than most of team members. Also with younger people, some of them need to be professionalized before they can be fully useful, once I got one that sustained that being late to work because he was drunk in a party the previous night was a reasonable excuse because he was the king of JS in his shop. Didn't last 6 months.

Nobody can guarantee you any pay scale, you make your own profession.

Family becomes a big factor, so job jumping is not something to be proud of, even as a young professional, it can be easily read as lack of maturity, and it plays against you in your resume.

Specialist vs. Generalist. There is room for both, but just be careful that you don't become specialist in a passing fad. Is better to accumulate specializations, so you become a well rounded generalist

Today I am coding in 3 different (but business process related) projects. I am part of the "think tank" that design the mathematical models behind the different products; and also work with the rest of the senior team on how to bring the energy of the younger people to a more self disciplined and productive place. We are finding that too many people think that "loud and opinionated" makes them noticeable, but the truth is that we cannot put high value products in the hands of the frat house king (to put it in stereotype terms: the bullied geek in the school probably has many more chances than the high school quarter back)

onion2k 7 days ago 1 reply      
I'm older than you and I've been looking for a new developer role recently. The main problem I see is that there haven't really been "old web developers" in the past - I've got about 15 years experience which is pretty much as much as it's possible to have in the web industry. People with more experience tend to be "software engineers who wrote web things" rather than "web developers" per se. Employers have expectations that web people are young people and as such building web software is something that you can only really do at the start of your career. The assumption is that if you have a lot of experience you'll quickly get bored and move on. Consequently it's getting a lot harder to find a job. I suspect that once we pass 40 we'll all have little choice but to move in to a more business analyst or management style role, or go freelance, until the industry is mature enough that age isn't something that works against you. A shame really.
zwieback 7 days ago 0 replies      
48, working at HP. I code every day and also get to tinker with embedded systems, optics, lasers, sensors, etc. Every day I can't believe I'm getting paid so well to have so much fun. I do keep up with the latest technology in my field.

> Do you have to go into management to continue progressing upwards in pay and influence?

No, like many corporations we have a dual path system although one level up from my senior engineering position I would have to do some visionary stuff, which I'm not good at so I'll probably stay at this level. Pay is not directly linked to position here.

> Is there a plateau in pay? Is there a drop in pay switching jobs after a certain number of years experience because places are looking for 5+ instead of 20+?

Doesn't seem to be the case here. I could imagine switching jobs gets trickier in your 50s because hiring someone new at high pay appears riskier.

> Are older devs not looking for new jobs because they have families and want more stability/are focussed elsewhere?

Yes, major issue with two kids in middle school and good benefits at current job. Planning on being more flexible in a few years...

> Is becoming a specialist rather than a generalist the answer?

I don't think so. As an engineer I think it's always good to have a balance between a specialty and a broad base. I've benefitted more from learning new skills but having a specialty is often good to get a start somewhere.

> And lastly: if you're in your late 30s, 40s, 50s, what are you doing at your job? What are the older people in your workplace doing?

Fun stuff: writing code, building SW/FW/EE test systems, building production lines, running product tests, doing failure analysis.

Boring stuff: working with outsource vendors and CMs, working through regulatory issues.

Surprisingly, there's almost no corporate training and bureaucracy left. I think first all that stuff was outsourced and then we decided that our vendors were too expensive and just got rid of everything. Win!

grobmeier 7 hours ago 0 replies      
I am 35, soon 36. I have worked as project manager for 3 years when I was around 30, then quit the job because it bored me to death. This wasn't career for me. Now I am developing a lot. I have a team, but its so small that I write a lot of code myself.

I enjoy planning and developing systems. I have seen all aspects of working in small (~100 persons) and big companies (160.000 persons). Why should I switch to management when I am good with what I do? Being a developer is not only a step in career, its also passion. Being a manager is not the next step, its a completely different job. You plan deadlines and HR and speak with customers and their contracts. This is not the next level, its something different. You can do this also without being a software developer in a previous life.

There are not that many older devs I know. The people of whome I speak are between 40 and 50. These folks are truly experts in their domains. I learn a lot when speaking with them. In some cases 40+ devs act and work like 20+ devs: they learn. Imagine what you can do with a knowledge grown by 20 years? Age really doesn't matter, except you want to do a completely different job after your software development time.

I have not suffered any salary drops so far. I could have steadily increased my income. However I decided before around 3 years to stop this and work as a freelancer. My time is limited, my rate is pretty normal and so I know pretty much what is possible in a year and what not. You could say, I have limited myself to a certain income. On the other hand since then I only worked on projects I liked. I have never written a single line of code of something I didn't like (except that one time, but I fired the customer).

For me, being an "old" dev with 35 as you maybe would call it I have realized that I found my high in my career: the full freedom of what I do and what not.

I get a lot of offers because of my experiences and I have the choice. Please consider "earning this choice" as an important point in your career. Many can have more money; a few can have the freedom.

That said, the 30+ or 40+ devs I know are not shy to switch jobs. I know a few who think like that, but well: I was 32 when I quit my job. Now I am 35 I don't need "safety". With 33 my son was born, I still didn't feel like that.

If you would ask me: don't worry about your career. Spend your time with the things you like. Life is to short to waste it with people who tell you what a "great career" is.

groby_b 7 days ago 0 replies      
44, and yes, it's a concern on the horizon that there might be ageism - but so far I'm not seeing it.

> Do you have to go into management to continue progressing upwards in pay and influence

That depends on how much pay and influence you want. At some point, influence means managing. If not in title, certainly in actions.

> Is there a plateau in pay?Yes and no. If you stay in the same qualification range at a given company, your pay will stagnate modulo annual increases. Move up or out to improve.

> Is there a drop in pay switching jobs after a certain number of years experience because places are looking for 5+ instead of 20+?

There can be. If you can, trade the drop for something you care about that advances your career. E.g. 2 jobs ago I took a pay-cut, but that translated into being given the responsibility to build a new team from scratch. It was something I wanted enough to take the cut, and it was a great learning experience. I subsequently traded back for money ;)

> Are older devs not looking for new jobs because they have families and want more stability/are focussed elsewhere?

Can't speak for all - I usually pick jobs I like, at companies I like, for pay I'm OK with. As long as the job comes with growth opportunities, I don't look for new jobs because I'm enjoying what I do.

If I don't, I'll probably switch.

But yes, I've also settled down a bit more. I wouldn't root up my family on a whim and move to a different continent any more, unless it was a stellar opportunity. Or maybe I'm not settled down, just pickier.

> And lastly: if you're in your late 30s, 40s, 50s, what are you doing at your job? What are the older people in your workplace doing?

I write code, and am trying to move into a bit more of a lead position, because that's what I care about. In general, the ones who want to write code do so. The ones who want to manage do so. And we've got people that are significantly older than I am.

In short, I wouldn't worry too much about being too old just yet :) Just make sure you keep your skills sharp.

MartinCron 7 days ago 1 reply      
I'm late thirties, and I'm writing code every day and fully intend to keep doing so until someone pries my ergonomic keyboard from my cold dead hands.

Something to keep in mind is that this industry is aging and maturing alongside us. You can't use historical precedent for understanding unprecedented events.

My personal hope is that the software developer monoculture (young dudes with ancestors in Europe or some parts of Asia) will mature into the kind of diverse profession where people aren't any more surprised by a female coder than they would be by a female orthodontist.

TwistedWeasel 7 days ago 1 reply      
I can't speak for the community at large but I can tell you my path, my plan and my worries about that plan.

I just turned 36. I had been a manager for seven years across a few companies, managing teams ranging in size from 4 engineers to 35 (five teams underneath me). I reached a point in my last job where I was spending 80% of my week in meetings and the other 20% trying to stay on top of what my team was doing technically. I found myself becoming less and less useful in the technical discussions as the team was building up skills in new technologies that I didn't have time to learn.

I felt like I was losing my ability to be an engineer and therefore my ability to be a good engineering manager. I was not enjoying any part of my job at all. The rare opportunities to write code and learn new things were my only time where I felt good about the work I was doing.

So, I quit and got a different position as a senior developer. I told my new employer up front that I had been a manager for a long time and I wanted to be more technical again and focus my career on technical expertise. I my new position I am able to lead and set technical direction without being a "manager" in the traditional sense, people don't report to me but I help define what we're building and how we're building it. I am able to write code, learn, teach and explore ideas without feeling bogged down by management. My goal is to grow technically as much as I can and avoid becoming a manager that spends all my time in meetings again.

However, I am not sure how long this can last. At some point career growth seems to always steer towards doing less hands on and more managing of others, so perhaps i'll just need to find a way to enjoy that.

georgemcbay 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm 40 and still actively developing software; I work with another developer who is in his early 50s and a bunch of people in their late 20s or early 30s.

I've not seen a hard plateau in pay but there's definitely a certain amount of soft leveling off in terms of percentages -- early in your career it is way easier to find a new job with a 50% pay increase, once you get into 6 figures that obviously becomes increasingly harder to repeat.

The only pay drop I've had was voluntary, to work at a startup I wanted to work at more than I wanted to maintain the pay I was making previously.

I think you can remain a generalist if you "specialize in being a generalist". My current job is doing Android client software development, but at home I code mostly in Go (servers, camera control systems, embedded Linux GUIs, etc) and I am still constantly learning new tech, new languages, etc, and still enjoy playing with technology in general seemingly much more so than even my late-20s/early-30s coworkers. Just built a RepRap 3d printer at home, have been learning about camera lens design and creating some custom lenses for my cameras (relatively basic Double Gauss designs with 4-6 elements at this point), etc.

DEinspanjer 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm hitting 40 this year. I've been a professional in the tech field for almost 20 years, and a hobbyist for another 5 before that. I am completely self taught. I never took any computer science courses.

I have done pretty well in the field. I eventually focused on data warehousing and business intelligence. I worked for a startup that was recently acquired by a huge company, another startup from early on, and the highlight of my career was working on the Metrics team at Mozilla. I eventually accepted a management position in that team, but after a few years, the stress was getting to me and I missed coding so I switched back to the technical track and I'm doing software architecture at Pentaho, a business intelligence tools company.

I live on the east coast, I work from home full time. I make a good salary. I took a very small drop in pay when I left Mozilla, but it would be tough for many companies to compete with the full scope of life and benefits at Mozilla, and I wasn't unhappy with the change. I am on the upper end of the pay scale, but having been a manager at a couple of different companies, I also know that there is still plenty of room for improvement, even staying on the technical track.

I like @bane's reply, although I feel that personally, there is an important distinction between the middle-management handing hiring, firing, performance reviews, and bureaucratic BS and the director, CTO, VPoE, or team lead where you are doing the abstract work he discusses. Maybe I just got unlucky or I didn't take advantage of the opportunities there though. :)

I would eventually like to move into a principle role, or maybe a director, but I personally have to be careful because I enjoy leading teams but I don't enjoy middle management. :) It is very possible that I might not hit that level because of my self-imposed restrictions.

I attribute my success to a ceasless passion for technology in general. I keep a notebook where I jot down any keywords or tech that I run across or hear mentioned so I can look into it in my spare time. I love diving deep into these technologies and understanding where they can be effectively applied. In most people's books that would make me a generalist, albeit within a specialized field.

I don't pull as many over-nighters as I used to a decade ago. I am more concerned about stopping work in the evening to spend time with my family. That said, I have never felt or acted like a "5:01'er", and I don't believe I would continue to prosper in this field in a way I want if I were to become one.

mml 7 days ago 1 reply      
39.5 here, have been a 1 man shop for 12 years. At this point, someone would have to be insane to hire me as FTE, and I would have to be insane to take it.

The money is better than ever, and I'm getting more and more interesting things to do.

One factor over the last 10 years or so (I've been in the game for 20 years now (yikes!)) has been having the experience to know which technologies to even bother messing with.

Far more important than the above, is to mentor other people, help people, and befriend everyone you can. It pays off in spades down the road when some C*O calls you up to lend a hand because he remembers when you helped him out a thousand years ago, trusts your judgement and skills.

Likewise, payback can be a bitch, so making "enemies" is not a great idea. Life is too short.

levosmetalo 7 days ago 0 replies      
Go to management and learn to play politics. Sooner or later you'll have to. There will always be someone younger and cheaper that will be good enough for the not so challenging lob you have. You just can't compete with them. Yes, there are places where one can advance much longer on a pure technical path, but there are so few these jobs and places that it's just no realistical if you are not in top 1% both in technical or luck skills.

If you want more money, sooner or later you'll have to "take more responsibility" and "lead the team". While being on the management level just above the programmers, you'll still have some contact with the technical part, but when you progress further, you'll loose it and become the pure bean counter and look at other programmers as resources.

And you will hate that, but you still have this mortgage you have to pay, and to save for your kids colledge, maybe go few times a year on vacation, or you need to do that latest gadget as an impulse buy.

And with the time, you will hate your job, as much as anyone else at that position. You will start to question whether it was the right choice to become software engineer. But it was. You had some ten years when you liked your job and found it both well paid and satisfying, which is much more average person, even with a degree, can realistically hope to have.


Being in a similar situation, I had to vent a bit. I made my choice to switch to the dark side and go the management route. I know I'll hate it, but that's the reality where I live. I know I could get a few more years as a software engineer in Silicon Valley, but USA is among the last places on earth where I would like to raise my family. So, management, here I come.

psychotik 7 days ago 5 replies      
Older developers get garbage collected
boothead 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm 37 in May. I have been:

A marquee erector

A chemical toilette attendant

A barman

A bouncer (prefer the term doorman)

A commando

A telecoms engineer

A programmer of various different languages

Now I'm the CTO of a start up and we don't have any older people (apart from the founders by a few months). About the only thing I can think of to say is to keep learning forever, as many different things as you can think of. With a background in development and that kind of mentality you'll always be useful to someone! :-)

ceautery 7 days ago 0 replies      
My story is, I think, atypical. I have no college experience, have been in IT for 19 years, and am now 42.

I was hired to my current gig 11 years ago to fill an emergency need for someone with perl and B2B experience, where I showed myself to be competent and approachable, and received a token promotion and consistent merit raises.

I have made all my IT hires in a similar way. In 1995 CompuServe had an immediate need for anyone who could tell a mouse from a keyboard, and due to my experience troubleshooting modem connections to play better dial-up Doom, I was put right into tech support in the ailing company. Before they imploded, I was hired at an ecommerce VAN to troubleshoot comm problems and write comm scripts for some of their software packages when they were very short on good comm help.

At each of the companies I've worked for over the last 19 years, I've dodged layoffs, demonstrated competence and agility, been given a single token promotion, and have been paid below the market average for my position due to not having a college degree.

Pluses: Haven't been fired, laid off, aged out, or put out to pasture. I have had consistent employment, taking only two contracting gigs over the years, both while still employed full time. Plus no one gripes that I wear jeans in a business casual environment, or that I look like a hippy with my 21" hair.

Minuses: Fewer promotions, lower average pay.

If I did the math of some of my peers who negotiated more pay from employers, but were then laid off during low profit years, I would either break even or end up in the black by comparison.

By showing competence, a sense of urgency, and willingness to keep an enterprise system healthy for the long game, I've done pretty well, plus no pesky student loans to pay off.

...but on the other hand, I haven't written that killer app, founded my own tech firm, or otherwise found my way to riches. As 50 gets nearer, and as I cost my company more, any of that may change. I fully expect within the next re-org or two to be handed a severance package, and then see if my secret project-x is a gold mine waiting to happen, or if I've been kidding myself all these years.

bobochan 7 days ago 0 replies      
It seems hard to believe that I will be turning 50 soon, but I am still doing what I have done for the past 30 years or so. Every day I walk to work, get a coffee, fire up emacs, and start working.

Is there a plateau in pay? Sure, but programmers make okay money, so I cannot complain. If I want to work more I can sometimes do consulting work or teach a bit, but generally life is getting too busy for too much of either. I stay where I am because I love running up the steps every day to work, but really I've been happy in almost every job I have ever had.

My career has basically taught me that being a generalist in an age of hyper-specialization makes me very useful. Being able to code in many different languages and environments helps, but so does having domain knowledge in related fields (economics and statistics in my case). Softer skills like writing and public speaking pay for themselves 1,000 times over, as does having a sense of humor and a willingness to share credit and help out when the chips are down.

The older people in my place are doing pretty much the same things that I am doing, but a few a starting to wind down and think about where they want to spend the final days of their careers.

It seems way too early to start looking at my career in retrospect, but really I cannot imagine anything more interesting or worthwhile than the past 30 years have been in programming. It has been an amazing ride with more cool stuff then I ever imagined back when I was typing programs out of Creative Computing on my Apple ][+.

jakejake 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm in my mid 40's, still programming away but basically have been building and leading teams for a while. As it turns out I really like working on improving process. I've watched friends my age burn out and leave the industry. A lot of the guys that dropped out were people that weren't really obsessed with computers, but rather just chose that as their major - possibly for financial reasons. I can see how all of the minutia could get annoying, but I just see it as part of the business.

For me it's not just about building things anymore. It's more about what I consider - building things and doing it with style. Give me the time to plan an app, put together a team, predict our finish date and then build our system. My goal is to do it with the team feeling happy and proud of their work the whole way. No horrible crunch mode or last-minute heroics. At this point in my career that's what I aim for more so than just getting an app built.

I also like helping young people become proficient, reliable developers who know how to plan and maintain large systems. Young developers tend to have a lot of clever ideas and know the latest tools - but I have various skills that they lack or find uninteresting. So I don't see them as competition. I think young and old developers can really compliment each other.

As for salary, it's hard for me to say since I'm in year 5 of a startup venture that just hit the black last year and is looking towards being a profitable company. So whether or not I will ever be looking for another job is something that I'm unsure about. I've pretty much decided that I would like to manage larger teams - not because I have to but because I enjoy it.

kennethtilton 7 days ago 0 replies      
Hey, thanks ruling out the 60s as too old even to consider. :)

I think anyone who is a seat-filler has a problem. But if one codes for fun, if one sees new technology and just DLs a tutorial and starts using it, if one is always thinking about how ones code can be tighter, such that every time one looks at ones code one rewrites it, one will be OK.

No need to stop coding to make money. Top coders do fine, and then one gets to code.

I am consulting for a company where I gave up a top spot so I would have more time to work on my startup: http://tiltontec.com/

I am sixty-two, have been coding head down on hard problems since 1978, on the Apple II.

Good news, grasshopper: it never gets old.

Now if you'll excuse me, it's time for my nap.

estebank 7 days ago 2 replies      
Clean Room Technician: You know what they do with engineers when they turn forty?[to Aaron, who shakes his head]Clean Room Technician: They take them out and shoot them.


neves 7 days ago 1 reply      
I'd like to link to the top HN story now: http://math-blog.com/2014/03/10/stem-shortage-claims-and-fac...

The WhatsApp guys are experienced engineers who were rejected from FB and Twitter. Prepare yourself for ageism. Your path is to create a $19B company.

hopeless 7 days ago 0 replies      
This has always bothered me since my early twenties: my Dad was a programmer into his 50's (albeit, as a manager too) but he'd actually risen to those rank from an engineering apprentice so it's a bit different.

For me, there's the obvious path into management but being good at your trade does not imply you'll be good at management.

I think there's a more subtle path too: consultancy. I particularly like consultancy because you can start off basically as a freelance developer and gradually raise your profile into project management (if you own a consultancy team) or architecture design or CTO-type problems. It's much easier to get away from the code whilst still avoiding the management trap.

Of course, that assume the need to move away from the code but I know I don't learn new technologies quite as well as I did 10 years ago and that'll only get worse over the next 10-20. Also, as you get older, you generally need to find higher-value activities and a monkey coder is not top of that pile.

j45 7 days ago 0 replies      
Developers should be growing to become bridges between business and technology. Businesses rarely have technology problems. They have business needs that technology might help solve. Even though most businesses are becoming software businesses regardless of industry, it's from the perspective of managing the details of their business.

Learning and delivering strategy is far more valuable than just tactics (latest hip language/framework/stack), because a solution doesn't exist just in programming alone, but a combination with policy and process.

As you grow, you can become a strategic aligner that is not dishonest about using the latest toy at the expense of your customer's growth.

I'm in my early 30's, developed professionally for over 15 years.

The one thing I see over and over now is how secondary development starts appearing the more I interface with upper level management directly. There is a major starvation for developers who can learn to understand a problem and leveraging a solution to magnify competitive advantage.

I spend more time thinking and analyzing the problems (way more) before ever daring to trivialize something to whip up some code.

This ends up with my development work being tremendously more valued, instead of just being a means to an ends. As I get older, the value I add is not just coding, but being able to architect a solution that

markbnj 7 days ago 0 replies      
Software is a craft. Why would we stop practicing our craft as we get older? Do cabinetmakers stop making cabinets? Not as long as their hands can hold the tools. I'm 53 and still a working developer. Over my career I've worked with languages from 8086 assembler and Pascal to C++, C#, and now primarily Python. I am called on now to do more leadership, and my judgement is sought on architectural matters more than when I was in my 20's and 30's, but the primary skill remains my ability to comprehend a set of requirements, and from the infinity of potential implementations distill one that will satisfy those requirements in a robust and maintainable way. It's a valuable skill, and since it has been feeding my family for a couple of decades now I see no reason to let it wither.
jwarren 7 days ago 0 replies      
My father's in his 60s. Formerly a Pascal/VBA programmer, he's found it very tough going over the last decade. 20 years ago, he was working for the London Stock Exchange but now scrapes by making (actually very impressive) complex Excel macros for local small businesses.

It makes me really sad. I've tried retraining him in web development, and he actually picks it up really quickly, but I doubt there'd be any work for him out there given his age.

mml 7 days ago 0 replies      

My father is nearly 70, and still writes & maintains those horrible departmental VB+Access apps. He started in his late 40s, having noodled around with spreadsheets & databases since the 80s (from whence my fascination with this stuff stems).

Sadly, the world of VB & Access is so alien from my own that we can't even talk shop.

eranation 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm 36+ so I consider myself old. I am a tech lead in a "startup that gone enterprise" and write Java, Scala, and web.

Most of my friends are between 35-45, all fully employed with good salaries (mostly Java / Enterprise shops though, but also some cool startups / Googlers / Twitter / Amazon)

My take on this, both as an older guy, and also as a hiring manager is that for me merit and skill matter more than anything else, I'm completely age, race, color and gender blind. (I recently hired a 50+ years old dev who didn't work for 5 years, he was simply that good)

Good developers of any age will always find job, at least this is my theory.

Yes, there are 10X 1 year of experience people, yes there are people who as they grow older they have less desire to work long hours / cut salary (due to having a Family, this is legitimate) but I don't really believe that anyone out there will say no to a 40 years old developer if she is an ace. If someone does, then they are missing the talent and hurting their own companies.

I'm 100% unforgiving to skill issues, but in my experience, usually the older the candidate, the better they do, merely due to more experience.

They might not all know the latest vagrant / docker / hadoop / scala / Haskell / scss / node.js trends, but they know how to write code.

I'm shocked how many people with BSc or even MSc in CS, years of experience, simply don't know how to code. I mean some can't code their way out of a paper bag. But this has nothing to do with age, the last thing I care about is someone's manufacturing date. really. it just doesn't make any sense to do so.

JabavuAdams 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm 38, and I work at a small company with 11 full-time employees. I'm tied for oldest. It's by far the best place I've worked, just in terms of general autonomy and not worrying about stupid stuff. We've also released a number of hit games, which helps people to stay relaxed, I'm sure.

I'm the eldest of 5 developers, but I think the youngest is 29-30. We're essentially all generalists, although we have individual specialties. A couple of guys have really deep knowledge of iOS strangeness or shaders. I've got some specialization in game AI and physics, as well as game design skills. Any task can go to any dev and come back with reasonable results. There's no hand-holding.

We're an iOS shop, so my day-to-day coding is in Objective-C, although I do a lot of tools programming in Python 2.x.

Generally, I get to do what I want, with some exceptions. There's a strong culture of just doing something that helps the company, without necessarily being tasked to do it. Taking a day off to do a research project is also tolerated when we're not on a really tight deadline.

Unlimited vacation and sick-days, within reason.

I don't see working for anyone else in the future -- I'd have to start my own gig.

There's some temptation to work for a Google, but at this point in my career it's getting a bit undignified to work for other people as an employee. I.e. I don't want to deal with your BS, unless you're a client (I can fire you).

mgkimsal 7 days ago 1 reply      
There's not been a 'traditional' software career yet, so it's hard to tell if what's happening is what 'should' happen.

Thinking about this from a numbers standpoint, the market for people with software development skills on a truly national (or global) scale only really developed in the late 70s at earlier - I'd say not until the mid 80s did we see enough of an uptick such that the idea of a long-term career for large numbers of software developers was viable. With that viewpoint, we're just now seeing a ~30 year mark from the start of that time period - people who started in their 20s or 30s in software are now hitting their 50s and 60s. Watching and learning from what their careers have been will be instructive for people, although I'm not sure there's a whole lot of lessons we can draw conclusively from that yet. It's only one generation, and the world of tech changed dramatically during that generation.

Will this always be a problem? I don't know - embeddable bio-devices may be the next seismic shift, but "the internet" - the idea of billions of people always connected to services - this was little more than a dream in the eyes of a few people back in the 80s. Given that viewpoint, the career of software developers in the "always connected" age of the internet has been not even 20 years.

Unrelated, I've had pretty gray hair since my early 20s, and I'm not sure I've been too affected by ageism, but I know it's been a factor during some hiring - people assuming I was in my 40s or 50s when I was ... 31. :)

herghost 7 days ago 1 reply      
I was doing dev at a large utility company in my early 20s. I was only doing it a few years (~4 or 5) when the tech stack was completely overhauled and it required me to re-learn the new stack. I started to transition across (in my own time, at my own expense) and then the company decided to outsource the majority of the work and take on the outsourcer's stack. This left me with the choice to re-learn again within a very short time frame, or make a change.

I figured it was a sector in constant skills cycle and decided to get out of the rat race.

By my late 20s I was a business analyst - having the tech/dev background really helped.

Now, I work in security. the tech/dev/business background is invaluable.

In short, generalism seems to be the path (in terms of skillset), whereas you can specialise in terms of career direction).

mildtrepidation 7 days ago 0 replies      
Older developers never die. They just fade away.

I'm in the "start your own gig" boat as far as people who have a useful skill set and don't want to learn an entirely new set of languages/frameworks/etc. I'm nearing my mid 30's have a consultancy, but simply being a consultant with a decent rate is a better option for making more money yourself without having to play as many corporate games (provided you have the discipline and tenacity to work well by yourself and stick with it).

The other side of that is creating products, which has been beaten to death here (look to patio11 for great inspiration and excellent insight), but it's quite relevant to this thread. It's somewhere between a massive amount of work and a crap shoot, but if you can figure it out and do it well, in my opinion it's the best of all realistic worlds for people in our position.

jebblue 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm in my 50's and still do what I've done since my 20's then as a hobby and since 30's for pay.

The older people where I work? Yeah not sure, management mostly I think. Some older people still program where I'm at.

My dad taught himself programming as a hobby in his 60's.

Why is this ever even a question anyway, no one asks what happens to people in their 50's who craft furniture, drive trucks, carry on scientific experiments, climb mountains, etc. Do what you like.

dagw 7 days ago 0 replies      
Most old (50+) programmers I've worked with have spent most of their time in some variation on theme of management, only to occasionally sit down and write code when their unique expertise (Fortran, Lisp, Cobol, APL etc.) is needed, occasionally to great surprise. A few move on to start highly specialized consulting firms focusing on the sort of things the 'kids' don't know anything about (Fortran, Lisp, Cobol, APL etc.).

The only 50+ programmers I've worked with who where still employed as programmers as their main/only responsibility where those who'd been at the company since "the early days", had written and/or designed all the companies core systems and thus where the ones who understood the system better than anyone.

pyrrhotech 7 days ago 1 reply      
Don't listen to what anyone who says that you can make as much as a programmer as a manager. The best programmers in the world with no management experience are going to cap at much less than a million a year in 99.9% of cases. Usually 400k or less. That's still good, and if you are happy with that stay a programmer! Just don't justify it saying that's the most you could make.

People who go into management literally have no cap in earnings. There are people who started as engineers and worked their way into senior management and even C suite positions. These positions can pay 7 or even 8 and in some cases 9 figures a year. The cap is much, much higher than you could ever make as just a programmer.

mcv 7 days ago 0 replies      
My dad was programming right until his retirement. He always refused any sort of management role (though he occasionally got a lead role for a high-profile project thrust upon him). I know one of the things he worked with was Java, so it definitely wasn't all old stuff. He was working on an open source project in his spare time, though strangely that seems to have stopped since his retirement. I should ask him about that.

I'm 40 and still young. I'm learning tons of new stuff, developing into new areas, and started as a freelancer two years ago (which boosted my pay quite a bit). I still have great plans to work on ideas of my own in the future. No idea where I'll be in 10 years, but I bet it's something totally different.

vijayr 7 days ago 0 replies      
My manager is at least 55+ (he retired, but came back because he was bored) - he writes code all day. My CTO is 50, he also writes code (though not as much as my manager).

From my (limited) experience, it looks like, as we age, we have these options:

1. Continuously learn new things - this negates the "old man" perception in the industry

2. Be good (not necessarily bleeding edge) in programming, but have good domain knowledge (this ties us to one domain though) - these kind of people are very valuable, as most programming jobs don't need bleeding edge skillsets.

3. Become a suit

peter303 7 days ago 0 replies      
I am in a vertical industry, i.e. something else (energy) plus computer science. Lots of purely trained CS-types do not do well here because they dont understand the domain. My degrees from MIT and Stanford are in the domain.

Incidentally, Google has matured and hired some of my classmates. Facebook still seems to be more of a CS kindergarten.

tungwaiyip 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm in my mid 40s. I have been coding my entire career and I am still coding everyday.

The startup I have worked for 3 year was not quite taking off. So a few months ago I decided to quit to look for something new. This is the first time I have quit a job out right without having a new job waiting. It turned out to be the best thing I have done. Once I broadcast the message that I am in the job market, my email box quickly fill up with requests (I'm in the San Francisco job market). I've spent the next week pretty much interviewing full time. Very soon I've received multiple job offers. The company I like the most did not make the highest offer. But I successfully negotiate up to a satisfactory level.

In terms of work and technical skill, I feel I am in the top of the game. I'm not sure where people get the idea that young person is better than more experienced. New knowledge often build on top of old knowledge. Fundamental skill like logic, math, data structure are just equally relevant. Plus experience is useful when you need to make judgment on where and how things are likely to change, and where things is more risky that deserve more attention for design and testing. That say the landscape of technical knowledge is huge and quickly expanding. There a new thing to learn everyday. I am aware that many people around me, both young and old, are really talented. There are always things I can learn from them.

In terms of pay, it is rising in absolute term. But I'm not in management and I'm moving mostly laterally. I don't believe I am making more than someone who are in their 30s. In this sense both my career and my pay is plateaued. But still I satisfied with the work and pay level. I think this is an excellent career choice for myself.

jasonkester 7 days ago 1 reply      
There are three popular paths you can take as you get older: You can become obsolete and eventually find yourself laid off and unemployable. Or you can move into management. Or you can keep learning new technology, becoming better, more employable, and able to demand higher bill rates year after year.

To a large extent, you get to choose which of these paths you prefer to go down.

I seem to have personally gone down path four: Start your own business. Consulting, unlike employeeing, tends to map bill rate exponentially to experience. And selling software products... well, when was the last time you decided not to buy a SaaS product because the company's founder seemed too old? That's what I thought.

WalterBright 7 days ago 0 replies      
> Do you have to go into management to continue progressing upwards in pay and influence?

Nope. You can invent a new programming language.

shitgoose 7 days ago 0 replies      
It depends on you. If you are one of those developers, who like butterflies fly from one framework du jour to another, then you will find yourself obsolete pretty fast. There is always going to be someone with more time on their hands to convert Spring to asm.js that runs in JS emulator implemented in Haskell.

If on the other hand you are interested in what is the business purpose of what you are doing, then you may have a long and rewarding engineering career ahead of you. Developers of 1st kind (butterflies) are dime a dozen. Second kind is much harder to find - someone who understands the business. I would recommend to specialize in business, but remain a generalist in technology (they haven't invented anything new since LISP and APL anyways). As a bonus, if you get sick of development or modern developers, then you can easily transition to business side.

I am in mid 40's, work in Finance.

huherto 7 days ago 0 replies      
I am 45, I have been working on software development for 25 years.

- You can move into management, but you have to keep your technical skills sharp. It is harder to find management positions than programming positions. Also, you cannot manage what you don't understand.

- I have stayed around 5 years on each job. Knowing the specific systems of company as well as the technology makes you very valuable at that company. However, you may be able to raise your salary if you move more often, but that has its own risks.

- Specialist or generalist? if you are willing to move it is probably better to be a specialist.

- I still enjoy coding, the trick is to think of it as a craft. The feeling of being good at something, is a big motivator.

hermitcrab 3 days ago 0 replies      
I am 48 and have been programming professional since I left University at 21. After ~20 years working for other people, I struck out on my own. I have been running my own 1-man software company for the last 9 years. It isn't an easy option, but it is a great lifestyle and I make a very comfortable living from it. I don't expect to ever go back to employment. You can find out a bit more about this route here:http://successfulsoftware.net/2013/11/06/lifestyle-programmi...
elliottcarlson 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm in my mid-30's and was very reluctant to go in to management, wanting to code as I have done since my first job at 16. In the last 18 years I was happy being a developer, but over the course of the last few years I have come to the personal realization that I would need to eventually move in to a different role - I didn't want to wait too long either. I recently got the opportunity to move in to management and don't regret the decision. Sadly, it's brought me to 100% management, 0% development - but I make sure to review every pull request, knowing exactly what is going on. Additionally, I still work on little side projects of my own at night/weekends - it takes care of the itch to want to code, and it's stuff I am really passionate about.

As for salary - I believe I was getting close to plateauing as a developer in my area (for jobs I would want to do), and I have opened up my career and salary path a bit more.

Regarding looking for jobs - I moved from the agency world in my early 30's to the startup world. I am so much happier, even with the perceived risk, I believe it has made me far more marketable for future endeavors. I got to work on far more interesting things, and the people I've met after making the switch has helped me tremendously.

asimeqi 7 days ago 1 reply      
Few weeks ago I got an email by a person who wrote a famous piece of software in 1971. He was given some software I had written and was asking me questions because he intended to make a few additions. My software was written in C#. I don't know what he used in 1971 but most probably it wasn't C. I have to admit that his questions made my day (or week). I learned that he is over 70 years old and programs every day. I hope I will be doing the same at his age.
jmadsen 7 days ago 0 replies      
I see a lot of "coding-centric" answers, but I think the most valuable asset older programmers have is their experience. So I would say, you go into "project lead" mode (which you could read as management, but I think of that hat as non-programming)

In other words, you sit in the planning meetings & your experience on past projects helps get over that "where do we start" mode. You make sure the proper QA and testing is being done, things like that.

Your day is filled with many other tasks than just writing code. You go home at 5pm & work on your private projects for fun & interest (not that 9-5 is uninteresting, but you don't have the time to "play" so much any more)

OldCoder 5 days ago 0 replies      
Developers who go on long enough are expected to obtain high-level titles by their 50s or to retire at about that time.

I'd like to discuss an issue that you might not have thought about: What's going to happen if you lose your job?

Employment in the 50s can be problematic. If somebody is skilled and employed, and has a high-level title or is a specialist or has useful connections, they should be able to obtain a new position.

Otherwise, they might go from well-off to homeless. It happens. I'm 55, my resume has been called pretty good, and I was worth $1M a decade ago. I'm a transient now. I've got some medical issues, no medical care, and no dentists. Potential jobs are primarily unskilled physical labor, which I'm not able to do.

I'll be taking a shot at tutoring. However, I don't expect that to provide more than gas money. The head of an admin assistant firm said that I can't be a secretary unless I already am one. Two people considered sending me to care for elderly relatives, but we didn't proceed. My title at one of those positions was going to be "poop scooper".

Don't let this happen to you.

For what it's worth, here's my advice:

1. Don't fall off of the employment ladder.

2. Become a specialist. Try to remain broad enough, though, that you don't become obsolete.

3. Build a network of people. Make it a large one.

4. Diversify your investments.

5. While you're employed, don't let medical issues, even minor ones, go untreated for long. If you lose your job and your assets, you'll lose medical care too and the issues may become serious.

6. Be kind to people. But don't be a fool. Most people that you help are not going to return the favor.

Regarding specialists, I did recruiting for a while in 2011 and I can confirm that the filters are heavily weighted against generalists.

I've spent about 35 years myself as a generalist. My jobs called for it. The place where I spent most of my career took any project that came along, code of any type. At a dot-com that followed, after the money ran out, I handled all of the technical roles; IT, websites, development, support, documentation, etc. I was able to do a bit of everything.

Later on, none of this made a difference. There are no job listings that say "a bit of everything".

After the dot-com shut down, 2003, I made a million dollars in the stock market. Lost most of it afterwards and reentered the job market. Learned that middle-age generalists were not in high demand.

In my case, there were other factors that won't apply to you. It's a story for another time. But if you're a generalist who falls off of the ladder in middle age, you can expect things like this:

"With a resume like that, why isn't he a CTO? Why doesn't he even have a job?"

You'll be asked questions about algorithms that you haven't thought about for 30 years. Or you'll go through coding tests under adverse conditions that don't allow you to show what you can do.

Plan ahead. Understand that the best-laid schemes of mice and men often go awry.

My own resume is located at:


Regards, Robert (the Old Coder)

StevePerkins 7 days ago 0 replies      
If you walk into any Fortune 500 "enterprise" environment, MOST of the employee developers working on the core business systems are typically in their 40's, 50's, and up.

It's not as "sexy" as tinkering with this month's Scala/Node/Go/Rust/Julia fad... but when you get older and have family and other commitments, perspective often changes. A lot of guys just want to "get things done", and then go have a life outside of work. To be fair, most developers continue to learn new technologies and skills throughout their life. But the drive to always be on the bleeding-edge with your professional work tends to be a trait of younger developers and smaller companies.

I think a large part of the fear of age is that we don't see a lot of middle-age web developers. That is because Generation X was really the first generation for which web development even EXISTED during our entry-level formative years! So I'm not convinced that we will all simply vanish into management 10 years from now. Rather, I think you'll just see a lot of middle age Gen-X web or Java developers, with perhaps younger guys focusing on newer niches (e.g. wearable devices, VR, pure client-side JavaScript with little to no backend, etc).

Or maybe web development will become a more cross-generational field, with middle-age and younger developers working side by side. Hard to predict the future with certainty. At any rate, I'm about to turn 40 myself, and I stopped stressing out about my "exit strategy" a few years ago. I'm currently working for an exciting small start-up. I ENJOY being hands-on with the code... and as long as I maintain that passion and desire to learn, I find that my income and responsibilities keep going up. I'm sure that will plateau at some point soon, and maybe decline later in life if I choose to slow down a bit. But I find that I'm still highly employable among the employers that I want to work for.

dcgibbons 6 days ago 0 replies      
I am 43 and I have been programming professionally for the past 26 years.

I had good early education, but left school as a college freshman to focus on industry work, and didn't return until 2004. The lack of formal education has never held me back, as technology companies especially like people who have been successful without those credentials. I am doing a graduate program in CS now, for the pure intellectual fun of it.

Pay has continued steadily over my career, with the only setbacks being self-imposed when I tried my own startups or left a high paying job for a lesser one because of better long-term prospects. It is mentally hard deciding to leave those $200k+/year jobs, but I have not once regretted it. In the end, I have only had 2 years total in my career where my taxable gross was less than the year before, and one of those years is when I took a year off to goof off (as an aside, I highly recommend that people do this every 5 years or so).

I have always wondered about ageism, mostly because I started doing this when I was 18 and there were a lot of older developers I worked with that were not effective. I have come to learn over time that age has really little to do with this: people can become complacent for a variety of reasons, and age has little to do with it.

The few folks I've known that are older and who did have trouble finding jobs had some other life issues in the way, such as letting their skills become irrelevant, being a bitter whiner, or not being a very good salesperson. You don't have to be the smartest tool in the shed to interview well, and sometimes you will not (I have had some spectacular uhhhh-duh moments more than once!), but take those setbacks as opportunities to learn and improve, not to sit and complain.

The whole discussion on management, leadership, architecture, etc. is quite pertinent. I have done mostly architecture since my early 20s and always find myself back in that role whether or fight it or not. I try very hard to code every single day, but the reality is businesses get more value from me when I am looking at the bigger picture and enabling others to code faster. Personally, I would much rather go code than do that type of work, but it is still very fulfilling and is still engineering.

When I give others career advice and coaching, my number 1 suggestion is to always do what you love, but be open-minded about what that means. Most of us will find ourselves with a variety of opportunities over the years and being self-limiting is the best way to keep your career from advancing.

My number 2 suggestion on career is that if find yourself being the smartest person in your company, either because you are or just believe it, it is time to move on. Don't be that guy/girl.

I have always deliberately avoided the siren-song of the Valley, but I know I could make enough compensation to make up for the cost of living differences and still support my family well there. But, I will only go there if the project/company is one where I will be making a substantial impact on something interesting. And, frankly, that really should be true for anyone with more than 20 years of experience: it is time to use your experience for great works, not just paying the bills.

p.s. rules of thumbs are just that, and sometimes you have to make compromises because life is in the way - that's okay, too. Just don't let yourself fall into a trap/rut because of those.

p.p.s. people in this field are rich by almost every measure, even if you aren't technically still in the 1%. If you're struggling to get by in the Bay Area, there are a lot better places to live where you can do a lot better. Don't be fooled into thinking that is the only place to be.

p.p.p.s. get off my lawn

mabhatter 7 days ago 0 replies      
The big thing is that developers move to "adult" companies. The pay is less, but they get to act like grown ups, take vacations, have families... Sure the work is more boring. Who doesn't love EDI or Factory planning!!! But getting those business skills down and implementing what the accountants want is like 50% of "computer" jobs that mostly are never, ever advertized.

I'm 40 and still looking at more school and something to keep busy another 20 years after the kids move out.

robotpony 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm in my 40s and have been designing and building software for money since the early 90s (and coding since the 70s). I remember asking these same questions at some point, while watching older developers lose their mojo (often ending up in management). I worried that I would end up like those soulless managers and burnt out architects. I didn't. Not yet, at least.

> Do you have to go into management to continue progressing upwards in pay and influence? I know this isn't the case at some companies (e.g. Google), but is it rare or common to progress as an individual contributor?

You will always have more influence as a VP, Director, or general board member. Architects and team leads can be part of the management group, but actively avoiding or despising it is alienating those who carry financial responsibility for the company. Once you have the ability to make long term and rational architectural decisions, you will want to be able to use that knowledge to change things. Making things happen outside of the management structure requires a great deal more force than from within.

But, you can retain your technical edge while in management (at many companies at least). I am an architect and CTO at one company and a board member at two other companies. I also code almost every day, as I believe that software design and architecture cannot exist without understanding how things work today.

That said, you don't have to go the management route. I do suggest at least making peace with management and managing, as it is a valuable tool for getting things done when mad coding and design skill is not enough.

As for pay ...

> Is there a plateau in pay? Is there a drop in pay switching jobs after a certain number of years experience because places are looking for 5+ instead of 20+?

Yes, pay rates tend to plateau if you're not part of the management or directorship. There are exceptions to this, including a number of smarter employers or if you change jobs regularly. You can also start your own company, but that requires both management and business savvy, and adds some risk.

I have only changed employers a few times as I've been lucky to really enjoy my teams, but I do own a consultancy as well (which allows me to adjust for any ceiling at my day job).

> Are older devs not looking for new jobs because they have families and want more stability/are focussed elsewhere?

Many older developers end up in management, owning companies, or as architects (who gravitate toward larger, older companies). Most older devs prefer stability, but not all.

> Is becoming a specialist rather than a generalist the answer?

The answer to what? Specializing will allow you to do more of something you want to do. Generalists often do better with entrepreneurship and general opportunity. You want to make more money? Management and ownership are great routes for that, and generalists excel in those roles (in my experience).

> And lastly: if you're in your late 30s, 40s, 50s, what are you doing at your job? What are the older people in your workplace doing?

I spend about half of my time designing systems and interfaces (from APIs to UIs). I spend half my time prototyping and setting up projects for my teams. I spend the last half of my time making sure it gets done properly. I still have more ideas for products than time, and I still pick up several new tools a year. I'm always learning, and always improving my own methodologies (as well as my team's). I still love what I do.

I also work with a software architect who is in his late 60s who is still both passionate and coding daily. He avoided management and does not often regret it, and has coded everything from OS subsystems (in the 60s) to iOS and web things today. His rate of learning has slowed down appreciably, but his vast knowledge and experience more than makes up for it. He was the first architect I met that still loved what he did (when he was in his early 50s).

AnimalMuppet 7 days ago 0 replies      
It gets harder. You can continue to be an engineer, but it takes longer to find a job. (I've seen lots of openings for "senior software engineer", by which they mean "5 to 7 years experience". Great. I've got 25 years. So, you don't want me, even if you call it "senior".)

But there are some places that want more experience. My current job wanted someone to come in, take the central piece of a new embedded system, and not have to take time on a learning curve. They didn't have any problem seeing the value in 25 years of experience.

Does salary plateau? More or less. Salary growth tapers off after about 10 years experience, or so it seems to me. It still grows some, though.

gesman 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm 50 and along with senior coding job I run my own side hosting company, occasional moonlighing consulting gigs and always interested in launching and trying little business ideas here and there.

I also get more and more interested in personal development.Getting through middle age, heavy swings of depression, emotional health struggles, addiction struggles are issues common to most, not only programmers or technical people.

Having overcome all these I've collected a set of very useful and practical personal improvement methods that I plan to gradually launch as my personal development business to help other people who are suffering from these issues.

I like to solve my own problems and then help others do the same.

philk10 7 days ago 0 replies      
I was a dev for 20 years at the same company - went from being an Assembler and BCPL programmer to C, C++, Visual Basic, learnt web stuff when that came along. Then the mid-life crisis hit ( well, more like my daughter was grown up so I had freedom to move ), thought about career changes and became a tester.A few years after that I moved from the UK to the USA and am loving my new adventure. Working at a small company as their main exploratory tester, working on several projects at a time, all sorts of domains and techs and still learning new stuff.

The devs I worked with for 20 years either stayed and stagnated with average pay rises every year, moved onto new firms to get a bigger pay rise, one went contracting then earnt a lot of cash and retired to be a farmer in Cornwall. Another dev retired with a nervous breakdown

ishbits 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm 39 and write code every day for my employer, but outside the scope of the engineering team. I guess it may fall under exploratory/architectural work for what might be future products, though if they gain any traction they will move into the engineering team, and I move on.

I guess this falls under the "more and more senior as a developer", but I'm outside the direct line of fire of bugs, deadlines, etc.

I can't complain, and I'm often working on newer technologies than the folks in engineering, keeping my relevance.

My plan will probably to migrate into a consultancy.

v0idness 7 days ago 0 replies      
Have you ever seen Soylent Green ?[1]

Watch It, and you'll discover what happends to Older Developers.

By the way, I'am 36 now, nearly half way. I still looking for code only jobs, I've been managing people since I was 18 to now. I go reverse, and toward more and more coding, architecture, research ...


kewpiedoll99 3 days ago 0 replies      
I never understood why my dad got sensitive about letting people know he was 50 and over until I got there and found myself working side by side with mostly people under 30. Now I'm careful not to let anybody know when I graduated from college or how old I am. I know I am more expensive than a lot of them. If I were in the shoes of management I would be looking hard at more expensive employees and assessing whether they were worth it. I interviewed at a place I'd have liked to make a move to, recently, but they passed and I have to wonder if their decision was to do with my being older and/or asking for too much money.

Emotionally, it's definitely harder to get excited about the new next hot thing. I'm not sure there's a lot more in coding that I am super excited about. I could see getting out of development. I'd be interested in getting into a related discipline, so if anybody has specific suggestions about that I'd love to hear them.

swampwiz 2 days ago 0 replies      
I am an early middle-aged "obsolete", "unemployable" American programmer. In 2003, I had just come off of yet another in a long 6 years string of great paying gigs using my pre-.NET Visual C++ skill set. I was doing so well that then, in my late 30's, I saw a pathway to early retirement not soon thereafter - making 20-30% on a 6 figure nest egg in the stock market will give you that feeling.

But a few things happened in the meantime. First I had a home that was little too low in elevation a little too close to New Orleans that got wiped out in 2005. Then I found my Visual C++ skill set considered obsolete almost overnight. I learned the similar Visual C# .NET WinForms skill set, and started to work on the ASP.NET skill set. However, it seemed that the necessary complementary skill set to be an employed ASP.NET web developer was growing exponentially. By the time I realized that I had to learn JavaScript, CSS and who knows what cr@p API Micro$oft would push as its flavor of the month, I looked at my financial situation whose descent started in the loss of my home in 2005 and that hit rock bottom when the Great Recession came about, and decided to just throw in the towel, file for Chapter 7 bankruptcy (keeping my retirement accounts intact) to discharge 6 figures of credit card and other unsecured debt, take full advantage of the social welfare system (i.e., SNAP "food stamps", ObamaCare, etc.) and just be an extraordinarily cynical "bum". I now advocate for socialist redistribution.

I have gotten off track in this response, so I will get back on. I would say that the front end is for the birds - the back end database stuff is where is the action is, and where the underlying skill set remains having value. Although there is the possibility that the current k3wl data scientist will be lose its luster, I really don't what a tech oriented person should do these days.

spiralpolitik 7 days ago 0 replies      
Largely it depends on the company culture. As you approach your mid thirties these are the questions you should be finding answers to:

Does the company have a technical development path ? Do developers get promoted to senior developers to technical leads or is the organization flat (bunch of developers reporting to a non technical manager) ?

Does the company value employees with experience or does it assume that everybody is an idiot and only a select few can make decisions ? A good way to asses this is to look at how responsibility is spread around the org chart.

Can you see yourself working for the company in 5 years time, what about 10 years, what about 20 years ?.

The sad fact is that after 40 even if you are the best developer in the world changing jobs is going to be more difficult so if you can find a company culture that works for you this is vastly more important than more pay.

akmur 2 days ago 0 replies      
I have a question though, for those who say that management is the way.If you follow this path, what happens is that you are replaced by younger and possibly faster programmers. Naturally, as things change and progress, before long, you are going to be managing stuff you don't comprehend in their entirety.So then, the solution is to keep studying and improving - I agree to that - but without experience on the field and with an ageing brain, I doubt you can keep up with the developments. What is your answer to this? Thanks for the thread
andyhnj 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm in my late 40s, and have been working as a developer since I was a teenager. Here's a simplified account of the last 20 years or so:

I spend 10+ years working for a mid-size company, progressing from developer to a sort of combination senior developer / IT manager. My salary grew at a reasonable pace. I was wearing a lot of different hats, and gained experience in a lot of different areas. That company went out of business a few years ago.

I then spent a couple of years at a small (12 person) web dev company. We had one in-house product and worked on various sites for various clients. Mostly ASP.NET, some Drupal. I took a bit of a salary hit there, making maybe 85% of my previous salary.

I left that company about a year ago, and am now at a fairly large company, primarily working on Dynamics AX custom programming, with some random ASP.NET/C# stuff in there too. I'm still not back at my old salary, from the company that went under, but I'm closer.

With a little more Dynamics AX work under my belt, I could probably jump ship for an AX consulting job that would get me back to that old salary. Or I could stay here and make a pretty reasonable salary, with modest gains, over the next several years. (There doesn't seem to be much room to move into management here, though if I stay long enough, that may change.)

Or I could try to go back to another web dev position, ASP.NET and/or Drupal, maybe. (That probably wouldn't get me much of a salary bump though.)

I'm not entirely sure what I'll be doing ten years from now. The company I'm at now is stable enough that I might be able to stay here until retirement, but I wouldn't count on it. I'll probably need to change jobs 2 or 3 more times before retirement. I try to keep my skills up to date, so I can stay employable, and, at some point, I'll probably start using the standard 50+ tricks on my resume: dropping my college graduation date, dropping the oldest jobs from the resume entirely, etc. And dyeing my hair maybe, if I get too grey.

This being HN, other people have of course talked about starting their own company. I'm not sure I want to do that, but it may become an attractive option at some point, especially if the health care situation in the US gets straightened out enough that I can afford to pay for my own health insurance.

jpdefillippo 7 days ago 0 replies      
We started a podcast... Grumpy Old Geeks. http://grumpyoldgeeks.com/ where we answer damn near every question you just asked in one episode or another. My cohost and I are both 20 year web vets in our 40's now so dealing with all that bullshit.
copergi 7 days ago 0 replies      
I know it sounds a bit snarky, but for a lot of people it seems to be "go get a decent job instead of doing software development". Maybe not going full Gibbons, but I definitely see a lot of people move out of the software world as they get older.
zoom6628 6 days ago 0 replies      
You should be worrying about plateau in your mind set long before you worry about the pay aspect. Yes we all need income of some sort. Start with living within your means, and then follow what interests you as best you can. Im 51 years old next week, started coding Portran and Basic at 13, worked as a dev, then did consulting, business operations work, started my own business in Hongkong, and now im a product manager of an American software company responsible for Asia Pacific. I could get paid more elsewhere but i love my job and the environment ( live in Guangzhou ).

You will get all sorts of advice about learn this, do that. Bottom line, know yourself well, especially what is deeply important to you as a person, and the rest will take care of itself. Spend time to ponder, have fun, try everything, stay optimistic, read widely.

Right now I get up at 05:30am every day to hack on Arduinos in C and Pythong and burning my fingers with soldering iron, and doing stuff to help my son on his PhD research into humanitarian logistics. 07:30 i down tools, breakfast and shower and go to my day job of ERP, global MNCs, C#, ABL, databases cloud this-and-that. Evenings i review and CTO on a system to help people collaborate worldwide. In between times im learning yoga. Colleagues amazed i do so much. The secret is that hackers/developers are blessed with a natural curiosity - when we learn to occasionally turn that on ourselves we can find that which motivates us, and then can follow that and have tons of fun.

Wish you well.

mathattack 7 days ago 0 replies      
My 2 cents... The great programmers can stay technical as long as they want. If they find their way to great companies, they will do well on equity. I have several data points of folks in their early to late 40s like this.

People who aren't excellent, or not truly passionate about the coding itself go into management, sales, or consulting. (I'm in this group) There is age discrimination by people in the open market who don't know your work. There is much less age discrimination amongst people who personally know you.

s0me0ne 6 days ago 1 reply      
Hell, I'm near my late 30s and I've never made over 28k (and the one time I did it lasted one year). Right now I'm a permatemp contractor (no benefits) but I like the job because I get to do design work a lot. Granted I'm not a "hacker" and more of a mediocre dev. I've read questions on "older developers" for years (back on slashdot and digg), so I've always known it was going to come sooner or later.

I don't know how many other jobs I can get with a certificate that will pay decent. I already have a bachelors in CS, and don't want to go to college again (its several more times more expensive than when I went). All my skills are computer related and I do not plan to go back into tech support ever again. Management isn't me and neither is sales. Guess I'm not sure what I'll end up doing.

Everyone here seems to be rockstars or A-list devs, but I like reading the comments here since it keeps me up to date and I learn a lot.

bbaisley 7 days ago 1 reply      
I'm in my late 40s and switched to full time management about a year ago. I didn't have to, it was a choice. I felt there was a management/leadership gap at my company. One I thought I could fill and do a good job. It wasn't about pay. Yes, the pay is greater. It is inline with my expanded sphere of influence.That said, how many managers have you seen doing tech talks at conferences? As a developer, that is one place you can expand your sphere of influence. Open source code is another outlet.I don't think there are limits to pay, or that it plateaus. There are less jobs paying 150K than 100K, less jobs paying 200K than 150K. There are probably more management jobs than developer jobs at the higher levels. So as a developer, the competition is greater. Good developers can get good pay, great developers can get great pay. Are you a good developer or a great developer? Google good vs great.I'm not looking for a new job because they are finding me. I keep my LinkedIn profile updated, I'm active on Stackoverflow, I open source. I actively manage my public profile. I find an online reputation is almost a requirement for the higher paying roles.
andretti1977 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm a 37 italian computer engineer, i made my first super-easy assembly program when i was 7 and loved programming since then. I've worked for big companies and left them for a small company where i learned a lot. After 4 years i started freelancing. Now, 4 years later, i can say that my pay grew a lot during freelancing. I think it can still grow, maybe a 20 or 30 percent more so maybe there will be a plateau. But i love programming!!! I can't think of a management work. I need coding! I know that maybe one day i will not be able to learn new stuff as i was able during these years, but learning something is one of the best part of this work! I'm thinking about founding a startup so maybe my work will be marketing/management but also coding. But as somebody said, i will also try to learn something in machine learning field (my university thesis was about IT infrastructures optimization based on genetic algorithms).So try to understand what you want from your work life: money, fun, career? Then you'll exactly know where you will go.
DanielBMarkham 7 days ago 1 reply      
I'm 48 and ended up moving up, even though I still love to code.

The reason wasn't age as much as it was simply a desire to do more complicated stuff. To me the real challenge in technology has always been at the intersection of business and tech, that spot where you have people with a need meeting people with capability. The business side alone is pretty boring, and the tech side at the end of the day just amounts to variations on bits and bytes. Puzzle books. (Although, like I said, I love it)

Being a consultant, I see a lot of older developers around. I think there's a significant bias in the industry towards younger guys -- mainly because younger guys are the hotshots moving through development into management, and people like hiring people that look like them. [Insert long discussion here about age bias if you must. I prefer to just acknowledge it and move on.]

The "mistakes" I've seen from older developers come in two flavors: not specializing enough and not moving around enough. Some guys will "float to the top", and become more of a surface-level generalist. This is the path I see my own technical skills leading. That's great, but many times companies specifically want some kind of bullshit new technology because somebody thought it looked hot on HN. In that case, you're at a disadvantage. And after a few years pass like that, sure, you're the guy that can do anything, but only in C. That has real, solid, useful business value -- but it sucks to try to sell in the labor marketplace. I have a feeling there are going to be a lot of older startup founders over the next 30 years that fit into this mold.

The second way to kill yourself is to stay at one company, working on one product and one technology, longer than a couple of years or so. Pretty soon you're the master of C++11 as it applies to real-time embedded weasel-hunting robots -- in other words, you are truly the master of something nobody else on the planet cares about. That works great until they stop making weasel-hunting robots, then it sucks.

I think the problem with age as a developer is the same problem you have at 22: you have to wisely balance the time and energy you spend on learning new things. You can't learn everything and move around every other month, but you can't stagnate either. Instead, you have to carefully watch the market and anticipate where it's going to be in 3-4 years. As you get older, sadly, it's just easy to stop giving a shit as much as you used to. Sure, in five years everybody will be using X, but what will they be doing with it? I'll tell you what. In 99% of cases, they'll be doing the same kinds of things they're doing right now, that's what. So after a couple of dozen rides on the "Gee whiz! Is this cool tech or what!" wagon, it gets tougher to get back on again.

microjesus 7 days ago 0 replies      
Fantastic points, I've been thinking about these recently as someone close to mid-thirties. I've been learning hardware development and low level hardware software design over the past year as I saw myself either needing management, a new industry or ... death. I find it strange and almost awkward to work on projects recently with cocky 21 year old versions of myself.
michaelcampbell 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm 48. I do architecture, development, and mentoring mainly. MOST of my contemporaries moved into management and "VP" type positions (but to be fair I come from a banking/finance background so that's just What People Do There (tm)).

I have a number of colleagues in my current position (in the Internet Security domain) around my age doing the same as I, although the average age is lower to be sure.

Brig303 7 days ago 0 replies      
An interesting comment on a Valleywag article -

"I am a 20 year resident currently in the process of being "de-located", and will be leaving San Francisco in a few weeks, destination unknown. A little known secret about the tech industry is that if you're not in your 20s or early 30s, you are basically unemployable. It's a great gig for the kiddies, but if you're an adult with a family and responsibilities, you'll learn all about the magic of "at will" employment. Not to mention that many/most of these companies are run by financial criminals/sociopaths who could care less about anything other than lining their own pockets."

Comment on http://valleywag.gawker.com/twitter-will-cause-so-much-gentr...

chrismaeda 7 days ago 0 replies      
One data point: a good friend of mine joined [large rdbms vendor] out of college about 25 years ago and rose through the ranks in the rdbms engine group. He's now one of the senior people who knows where all the bodies are buried in the code, the forgotten bugs that resulted in the current weird algorithm in the xyz module, etc. I have no idea what he makes, but when I tried to hire him during the first internet bubble they slapped the golden handcuffs on him. These days he's rich from 25 years of stock options.

Your comp definitely plateaus if you remain an individual contributor. You become more valuable, and more highly compensated, by managing and/or mentoring people, helping evolve the technology to match the needs of the business and to find new markets, touching customers and revenue, etc. In my opinion this is required from all senior level technical people in the software industry.

trvd1707 6 days ago 0 replies      
I use to be concerned about that when I was at your age, but now, after having to face major tragedies in my life I learned that the poet was right when he said that "All is worthwhile if the soul is not small." (Fernando Pessoa). I never get tired of learning, even if what is shown as new smells like dej-vu. Learning is something that rewards you not only when you achieve the goal, but in the process of achieving it. I tried the management path and I was good at it, but I really enjoy programming better, so I get programming gigs as much as possible. One thing in my favor is that I don't have any aspirations of being rich, stability and alike. This open my choices of jobs.
moron4hire 7 days ago 2 replies      
I'm 31 and I worry a lot about this issue. I live in the Washington DC area, which is extremely expensive. I am a freelance consultant, but my hourly rates are not very high. I have one client, and if someone in official IRS capacity were to look at us, they'd make my client make me a wage employee, the relationship we have is clearly not a subcontracting position. But this arrangement makes it possible for me to earn more from them than I would have as an employee. I don't now how that works, health insurance can't cost that much (I'm on my wife's now), but everywhere I've been has acted like a $50k employee == $100k subcontractor. Even paying for my own health insurance, my own vacations, and deducting my own taxes, I'm still netting more than I'd gross as an employee. I don't get it, but I'm not going to complain too loudly. And that not even getting into the cost savings I have from not driving, not eating out all the time, not getting sick all the time, etc.

My wife has a fulltime engineering job working for the government. We have a small condo that is just about the cheapest sort of place you can get around here without living in a rathole. We have one new car between the two of us, which works because I work from home and don't drive (I have a 15 year old car). Between our two salaries and the fact that we cook better than most restaurants, we live comfortably.

But I worry about what having kids will do to us. We would certainly have to buy a house. The condo is almost too small even for the two of us right now, but "fortunately" I didn't have a lot of stuff to begin with because I've never been paid very well. I have always risen to a head leadership position amongst developers wherever I've worked, but it has never turned into anything meaningful. "We appreciate your work!" would have a lot more meaning if it came with greenbacks.

If she decided to stay home, it would cut our income in half. Not to mention that we'd have to find private health insurance. I just don't see a bigger place plus half-income working. We need to either move in-state (which she doesn't want to do) or I need to make more money.

I'm reluctant to look for a job because I've not had good experiences working in offices. I don't enjoy the type of work I'm doing or would get hired to do. I like programming, a lot, just not this same, old, bullshit CRUD all the time.

I had good grades in college. I've always had strong programming, math, and science skills. I've always had lots of interesting side projects. I get along with people really easily. And I've never been able to find a good match for a job. The only places that ever call me back are shotgun recruiters and consultoware dungeons. It's disheartening.

I got really depressed with the consultoware field about three years ago. I lived off cash for a month while I looked for a new job, and ended up taking a huge salary cut to get into the only product-based startup that has every returned my emails. Turns out, they stuck me in their own consultoware project. After a year, they fired me without telling me why. I'm pretty sure it was because I was very unhappy, had worked it out so that none of my work was very much effort, and fell back to only putting in as much effort as was required of me, which was less than the 60 hours a week they expected.

I was on unemployment for a couple of months. I applied to everywhere I had ever wanted to work. I figured I had a bit of a time window and, at least in the first 2 months, wasn't terribly desperate to have a job right away. I reasoned I could "hold out for my dream job." Out of 30 job applications, not a single person called me back.

Eventually, a friend got me an introduction to the company he worked for at the time. I started contract-to-hire with them, and when the intro period was up, I took a chance on an ultimatum of letting me stay freelance or letting me leave, I would not take a salaried position. I've been working for them for 2 years now and it's been decent. I have a good working relationship with my client, he loves my work, they pay me, I don't go in to any offices, and sometimes the work is a little interesting. But, it still doesn't pay very well, in the grand scheme of things. I don't think I'm being paid what I'm worth.

It feels like the only out for me is to start my own company. I think I would really like to do that, but I don't have the funding for it and I don't know the right people to get funding.

detIbVendyinyoj 7 days ago 0 replies      
Late 30s. Recently took the plunge into management. I suppose I can manage. I don't love it. Can't say I recommend it.

At least when I was a developer, I could focus on the technical parts. If things went south, I could hone my skills for the next gig on someone else's dime.

I should probably be honest with myself and move into consulting and contracting before my skills degrade too much and I'm less relevant for it. I honestly don't care much for the politics of management, I'm not terribly charismatic, the company's processes are tiring and frustrating, and my team would probably be better served by someone who handles all that well. I'm scraping away time to hack when I should be taking care of the team.

csense 6 days ago 0 replies      
Old software developers are like old software: They never die; it just gets harder and harder to make them run on the latest hardware and software platforms, and the physical media they're stored on may eventually wear out.
mairead 2 days ago 0 replies      
I started my own company as a freelancer. You earn twice as much, so you can either work less, if you want family time or if you want to spend time on your own research. My primary motivation was putting money aside for maternity leave and spending more time on learning projects to keep up with industry changes. (I'm a front end dev btw) You need to be good enough to get work, and have enough contacts in the industry. I find this is much easier now that I'm more senior.
mtourne 7 days ago 0 replies      
I'm not that old (28), but I already see myself doing "the same stuff over and over" in my programming jobs. It's not that bad yet, but I think this would be a problem in my mid-thirties.

I've been seriously thinking about going back to school, and specializing in something entirely new (computer vision), as I'm already learning about it on my own.

Learning something new would be exciting, but the idea of starting over, being an "intern" again, then _maybe_ qualified if everything pans out is frightening.

As anyone here changed their technical career for another different technical career, instead of going the management route ?

arbutus 7 days ago 2 replies      
I'm curious to hear the answer to these questions from a woman's perspective. I met a few lady engineers through IEEE involvement in university who were further along in their careers, but I haven't met very many other lady devs over the age of 35.
consultutah 7 days ago 1 reply      
Ever go to Wally-mart? Have you seen the greeters at the door? Just ask them. Most of them are old cobol programmers. ;)
nickthemagicman 7 days ago 1 reply      
What about someone just starting out in programming at 35? Is it a bad idea?


sharemywin 7 days ago 2 replies      
I think in the midwest you have a lot of banks and insurance companies and alot of programmers still using cobol. I know at my company we should finally get all the way off the mainframe in about 8 years not because it's better or cheaper but because no one will be left that knows hot to use it. I code in gosu which is specific to a product in the P&C insurance industry I see the company staying with that product for another 10+ years.
dvydra2 7 days ago 0 replies      
I am 45 and my current occupation is as an Agile Technical Coach. It does involve a lot of travel, so I take breaks by doing remote-pair programming to spend more time with family and to keep up my coding skills. On Saturdays, I am starting to teach in the Math and Software Engineering Academy for kids 12 to 17. I do work a lot of hours, but the mix of work makes it very satisfying. I feel blessed that I got into this field.
jmnicolas 7 days ago 0 replies      
> What Happens to Older Developers?

Like the elephants when devs sense they're going to die, they travel to elephant's graveyard / management position.

The ones that refuse to die are disposed of humanly and ends up generally as cat food ... or dog food according to their last wishes.

bkurtz13 7 days ago 0 replies      
They merge into the global repository, becoming part of the source code of the universe.
bjornlouser 7 days ago 0 replies      
When I get older, losing my hair, many years from now.Will you still be using the command line?Wasteful meetings, bogus deadlines?...Will you still need me,will you still feed me,When I'm 64?
alvisandersonq 6 days ago 0 replies      
Todowiz is one of the best Todo List app which help you to keep track of everything.This application make sure that you won't miss anything.
valbaca 7 days ago 0 replies      
As a 25-year-old developer, this thread is one of the most informative I've seen in a quite a while.

Thank you for this question.

dfs45 7 days ago 0 replies      
My parents are both in their early 60's and they both still work as NATURAL/adabas developers.
alien3d 7 days ago 0 replies      
in 30, i do code and make a generator code to reduce my code time.Do you expertise in php and java or other language.. feel free to have fun..I think still lot people doing same job writing customize application.
0800899g 7 days ago 0 replies      
What happens to older developers?
logfromblammo 7 days ago 0 replies      
Older developers get sent off to a farm in the country, where they will have the space to run around and play, in a way that they never could in the cubicle maze. You never see or hear from them again because they are just so happy there, and also because all the fiber (or copper, if they were naughty) to their premises goes straight to the HappyFunNet, which doesn't have a peering agreement with our boring old Internet yet.

But they're totally still working and not being replaced by dumber, cheaper kids fresh off the boat or fresh from the diploma mill. Totally.

If you aren't lucky enough to work for a company that values the aptitude of older workers, even without domain-specific experience, your options are to become a technically indispensable genius, capable of writing metacode that the younger chimps can turn into working applications without much hand-holding, or you can become a person that spends increasing amounts of time firewalling those experts and chimps from the people who understand money and people better than computers.

Architect or manager.

gregimba 7 days ago 0 replies      
They go to the java factory.
xamdam 7 days ago 0 replies      
orionblastar 7 days ago 0 replies      
I am 45. Been out of work since 2002. Nobody wants to hire us older developers they all want cheaper labor sources.

Even NASA has this find big asteroids contest for $35000 in prizes because they got bit by the startup hackathon of cheaper labor sources of 20something college dropouts instead of 15 plus years of experience programmers.

Fact facts most hiring managers hate older developers. Unless they want quality and pay a salary to support a family can't hire us.

Need to move to find work but my family don't want me to move. Given ops for Google, Amazon, etc but had to move to take them. Nothing for me in St Louis Missouri USA.

greatsuccess 7 days ago 1 reply      
In in my mid 40s, went through some life burnout due to trying to start my own business, and had to come back to just being the most solid engineer I can be.

I do contracts almost exclusively because I have no faith in the employment market as an employee given the current trends in hiring.

Also I dont feel that being an employee makes me more of a team player, In most places contractors are doing the real work and employees are sitting around chatting over the water cooler. Id rather get work done.

Im a generalist and in spite of the rather idiotic statements about that in the first comment, its really the only way to go, if you are not a generalist you are likely not employable regardless of your age. Any shop that has hordes of 20 year olds spitting out HTML/CSS is wasting their time.

The beauty of being a generalist is that once you have enough experience and a core set of tools, you can add new ones or not at your leisure. The pace of things is really not that fast, about 80% of all tools that get released are just junk that noone will remember in a couple years.

One benefit of being an older developer, is that in a decent shop people tend to notch down the bullshit factor, because they know you have heard it before.

Conning people into doing things that are stupid is reserved for the 20 somethings.

greatsuccess 7 days ago 0 replies      
"The problem for some people is that these kinds of more generalized roles put you in charge of systems that do not have the sort of clear-cut deterministic behavior you remember from your programming days", what could you be possibly talking about? So generalists work on non-deterministic systems? Clear-cut? Gimme a break man that statement and perhaps your whole remark is a load of bull. You are making a statement that generalists arent programmers. Generalists make more money than anyone else except for security specialists.
orionblastar 7 days ago 0 replies      
Most of my friends that were older developers had killed themselves.

It started in 1999 during the Dotcom busts that flooded the market with cheaper labor sources.

Suddenly if you had a good job with a good salary some 20something working for $20K/year replaced you.

Unable to find work and provide for your family really wrecks the go. Most of my friends chose the suicide by shotgun route. I went to a lot of closed casket funerals and then got too depressed to go anymore.

My last job was in 2002, I thought I had a good job, but my employer only hired me to 'super debug' their main software that they hired these cheap labor sources for and they had a hackathon and prizes and none of them could get it stable or good quality and secure. So I got paid $150K/year and fixed it in two months, and then was fired even if everything worked great. I found that most job offers in my area are like that, promise you everything and as soon as you 'super debug' their problem you are fired.

Happened to most of my friends, and they ate a shotgun.

Some 20somethings on Internet forums kept telling me to eat a shotgun, shotgun mouthwash, etc. I refuse to kill myself and I will keep looking for work and bootstrapping my own side projects. I am glad Hacker News is not like Kuro5hin or IWETHEY or some other troll forums telling me to kill myself. You guys are professionals here.

sam_lowry_ 7 days ago 0 replies      
They don't die. They just disassemble.
hokkos 7 days ago 0 replies      
Soylent green.
Google Will Eat Itself googlewilleatitself.com
443 points by signaler  1 day ago   121 comments top 34
camillomiller 1 day ago 1 reply      
The point many of you are probably missing here is that this is not a proof of concept but a work of net/digital art, exhibited many times in the past (even at transmediale 2008) but fixed in a defined moment in time (~2006).

I've been a student of one of the authors (Alessandro Ludovico) in 2008, at the Academy of Fine Arts of Carrara (Italy).

Aqueous 1 day ago 2 replies      
"Current Google Share Price :495.01 USD"

This hasn't been updated since GOOG was a bit more than a third of what it is now.

But if they actually own 819 shares that is almost a million dollars of stock right now.

Edit: http://gwei.org/pages/google/legalletter1.html

nostromo 1 day ago 2 replies      
This reminds me of stock buy-back programs.

The company, using company revenues, to buy the company.

Although now I understand them, when I first heard of them I immediately thought it would lead to a stack overflow...

woah 1 day ago 3 replies      
FYI, in many European countries periods and commas in numbers are the reverse of how we use them in English- 405.413,19 is actually 405,413.19
YZF 1 day ago 4 replies      
I thought the share class structuring of Google was such that you can never own Google by buying its publicly traded shares?
noname123 1 day ago 0 replies      
For every impression/click payout that the clandestine "GTTP" network garners, Google the company will also have earned some profits off advertisers which'll be transferred to Google's bank account or used to build more infrastructure.

However, suppose GTTP compromise a significant or even 100% of GOOG's total ad payout; there are three possible scenarios:

a) if Adwords is operating at a loss (a la PS3, unlikely), the shares of GTTP will decrease massively, thereby depressing the shares of GOOG. However if GOOG wants to facilitate the transfer of the company of GTTP, it'd continue to operate at extreme loss by transferring more money to GTTP via Adwords loss until the shares goes down minimally $0.001 on OTC market (a la LEH). Then GTTP can acquire a worthless asset.

b) Adwords is generating a net profit more than the payout to GTTP. Net profit not in terms of net income but in the sense that the profit/intangible valuation of Google's use of revenue from GTTP's generated ads to build out infrastructure and human resources. GTTP's activity will then boost the shares of GOOG, given that GTTP generate a fixed amount of money for GOOG; using discount cashflow model, that means whatever GTTP's income cannot outpace the GTTP-GOOG Adwords unit's constantly rising valuation. (Think of this using a shareholder's dividend to cannibalize the company; or using a child's allowance to buy his/her parent).

c) Adwords is generating a net profit but less than the payout to GTTP. Basically a company distributing the bulk of its net profit to shareholders as dividend than using it to reinvest in R&D/infrastructure. In practice, GTTP's internal shareholders would likely revolt given GOOG's business model of growth (vs. say sleepier industries such as utility). But let's suppose say for the sake of the argument, that GTTP shareholders are agreement to cannibalize GOOG, they can do it! Given that the accumulated annual income generated by GTTP outpaces the market valuation of GOOG. (Think of WhatsApp founders cash out of 16B of FB stock or Mark Cuban with Broadcast.com at the height of YHOO's valuation, and the valuation of GOOG or FB decrease enough and/or they kept siphoning income to buy the company at a later time.)

govilk 57 minutes ago 0 replies      
It seems like the same situation when Porsche kept buying Volkswagen shares till 2009 and in the end losses.
jojopotato 1 day ago 1 reply      
Neat idea, but it looks like the site was last updated in 2005/6.
Springtime 23 hours ago 0 replies      
Appears this was created as an art/media installation by Ubermorgen in 2005 [1] that ran for a few years. Some believe it was a hoax [2], although it may have just been a brief but curious experiment.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubermorgen#Life_and_career

[2] http://linearfix.tumblr.com/post/21838753641/is-google-will-...

karangoeluw 1 day ago 0 replies      

    <!--Fireworks 8 Dreamweaver 8 target.  Created Sun Dec 11 16:07:50 GMT+0100 ( ) 2005-->

DigitalSea 1 day ago 3 replies      
This is actually a pretty genius idea, but as pointed out by others this site looks old (evident by the design and inaccurate stock price). I also think the way Google shares work is that you can never truly own a meaningful share of Google via public shares.
Buge 1 day ago 0 replies      
I don't get it. They're paying for the servers for their websites and the content on the websites. They could just as easily keep the money from the ads. So essentially they're just buying the shares out of pocket.
coreymgilmore 1 day ago 3 replies      
This is a pretty genius idea. Use Google to buy Google stock. With the current share price, buying shares isn't exactly cheap. But collecting cash from their service is an effective way to reap the benefits of corporate growth in another way.

Similarly: buying Tesla (TSLA) stock when it was cheap because you couldn't afford the Model S....and now you can afford it.

That being said, it would seem that there would need to be a rather large network of sites and AdSense links to earn enough money to buy a share. Reminds me of the cost-benefit ratio of mining bitcoin.

mcintyre1994 1 day ago 0 replies      
Given how long it's been since this was last updated, I wonder if they're still having any success. It seems Google are probably getting better at fraud handling quicker than they can innovate their fraud - and close to 10 years seems like Google would have a huge advantage by now.
Thirdegree 1 day ago 1 reply      
"202.345.117 Years until GWEI fully owns Google."

So close!

pdkl95 1 day ago 1 reply      
"No return, no make amendsIs this the future or this is how it will end?"

/everything's cool

level09 15 hours ago 0 replies      
They missed one important point though, hidden network of websites needs to run on servers, and servers cost money. more traffic means scaling and even higher costs.
Bud 1 day ago 0 replies      
Now, let's stop telling Google it's going to eat itself. You're going to give it a googleplex.
lclarkmichalek 1 day ago 1 reply      
Woo click fraud!
rgj 1 day ago 0 replies      
Reminds me of the Ren & Stimpy episode where Stimpy enters his own belly button and disappears.
LukeB_UK 1 day ago 0 replies      
So they were committing fraud to try and kill Google?
ivv 1 day ago 0 replies      
Theoretically, isn't it the case that the more successful they are in generating clicks, the more successful Google becomes, pushing the share piece higher and further out of their reach?
pa_toulou 18 hours ago 0 replies      
This is quite old and has been defunct for years now. It is a collaboration between Ubermorgen and Paolo Cirio & Alessandro Ludovico

For Ubermorgen it was part of a trilogy[1] of art/hacks displayed in art galleries with amazon noir [2] and the sound of ebay [3].

For Paolo Cirio & Alessandro Ludovico it was part of The Hacking Monopolism Trilogy[4] with the same amazon noir and face to facebook[4] stealing a million facebook accounts and auto-populating a dating website with them [5]. They have more info and pics about gwei [6].

[1]: http://www.ubermorgen.com/EKMRZ_Trilogy/

[2]: http://www.amazon-noir.com/

[3]: http://www.sound-of-ebay.com/

[4]: http://www.face-to-facebook.net/hacking-monopolism-trilogy.p...

[5]: http://www.face-to-facebook.net/

[6]: http://www.face-to-facebook.net/gwei.php

sharemywin 13 hours ago 0 replies      
I didn't think a majority of Google preferred stock stock is for sale?
yetanotherphd 1 day ago 0 replies      
Nonsense by people who don't understand free market economics and therefore choose to ridicule it.

Calling themselves artists (as another pointed out) shields them from the criticism they would receive if they clearly stated their point of view.

fiatjaf 1 day ago 0 replies      
A public-traded company is not the same as a public company. Larry Page and Sergey Brin can still hold all of their stocks and stay at the control of Google.
tqi 1 day ago 0 replies      
"We deconstruct the new global advertisment mechanisms"

The ad supported model isn't ideal, but if these guys have a better idea I'm all ears.

lhgaghl 1 day ago 0 replies      
I was listening to this song while reading the page, goes good with the flashing background: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBb8e7G4dBk
rhapsodyv 1 day ago 0 replies      
Sorry, but I couldn't stay in this site for more than 10 seconds.. My eyes hurt..
HillOBeans 1 day ago 0 replies      
So, in essence, they have worked out a way to be paid in stock shares instead of currency?
omni_ 1 day ago 0 replies      
That background is incredibly distracting.
yc-kjh 1 day ago 0 replies      
something unexpected will happen long before 202 million years from now.
hellbreakslose 18 hours ago 0 replies      
has anyone around this project realized that every time you click google adds google is getting money for it as well? and obviously their revenue is 80% while they give you 20% for each click... with that said, no sir google won't eat itself your just making google richer.
marincounty 1 day ago 0 replies      
I'm waiting for duckcuckgo to get some money. If Duckduckgogets a little bit better--I will just use google's free Api's.
Did Malaysian Airlines 370 disappear using SIA68/SQ68 (another 777)? keithledgerwood.tumblr.com
419 points by cloudwalking  20 hours ago   378 comments top 44
jballanc 19 hours ago 7 replies      
The folks over at airliners.net have pointed out that the 777's collision avoidance system only works if both planes' transponders are turned on. That doesn't mean this scenario is impossible, but it does raise the level of sophistication required.

Sadly, I feel like whatever happened, the amount of sophistication involved increasingly points toward the involvement of one or more state actors. If that's the case, I'm starting to doubt that we'll ever find out what happened to this plane...

lifeisstillgood 18 hours ago 6 replies      
I am not enthusiastic about jumping into speculation land, but I would be interested in knowing if the possibility of this being a accident followed by auto pilot is possible or totally disproven

My default assumption was they took off, an accident occurred that damaged cockpit and forced a turnaround, the damage was so great that the crew were unable to survive and turned on autopilot to stop an immediate crash, which then flew for seven hours till fuel ended, presumably with passengers pounding on the locked and hardened cockpit door.

So whilst I am in wild speculation territory I would like to know if there are some experts who might be able to say "bird strikes cannot disable radios" or "oxygen canisters do not leak" or "stewardesses can open the cockpit door" or some such.

I tend towards cockup not conspiracy myself.

(I recognise I may have missed discussions covering this and apologise if it is obvious)

downandout 19 hours ago 7 replies      
There is a realistic possibility that those piloting the plane used this and/or other stealth techniques and landed intact. There are lots of groups around the world that would love to have a working $250M aircraft. Maybe there is a massive airplane chop shop that this went to, or someone wants to load it up with explosives and fly it to some country they disagree with.

Unfortunately, whether it landed or not, the odds that the passengers are alive are very small. A ransom demand would have been made by now.

redbad 20 hours ago 9 replies      
This is almost exactly how a plot device in Neal Stephenson's REAMDE plays out. In almost exactly the same part of the world. Bizarre.
saalweachter 16 hours ago 2 replies      
I really wonder how much of this rampant speculation is just people desperately wanting 300 people not to have died, either at all or just for no reason at all. Secret terrorist masterminds secretly hijacking a plane is more comforting than "sometimes shit happens and people die and there's nothing anyone can do".
karterk 19 hours ago 0 replies      
Good analysis, but I'm skeptical that this is not already accounted for in the military radars. Given that so many flights fly everyday in almost every route, it becomes really easy for any country to sneak an aircraft anywhere. Such a glaring loop hole should not exist. And we are talking about crossing the borders monitored by multiple countries here.
KaiserPro 19 hours ago 3 replies      
Nice idea, however I'd hope that modern radar is able to detect two aircraft of that size flying close together.

Unless the perpetrators know the various limitations of each radar installation?

rjbwork 19 hours ago 1 reply      
An interesting theory and article, but I can't help but feel like this reads too much like one of the classic conspiracy theory articles about 9-11/lizards/aliens/Area 51, etc.
72deluxe 18 hours ago 2 replies      
"Snuck" is a strange American word, the same as "dove" instead of "dived", eg. "he dove into the pool" instead of "he dived into the pool". I would read "snuck" as "sneaked". Another weird word is "gotten".And another strange and irritating phrase that is sneaking its way into English over here is "for free", but "free" is not a price so instead of "buy 3 eggs for 2.00", you get weird phrases "sign up now and get this egg for free", whereas it should be "sign up now and get this egg free" or "sign up now and get this egg for nothing".

Always interesting the difference between the languages over time.

With reference to the flight, I truly hope they find it somewhere safe.

akumen 20 hours ago 4 replies      
Good theory. Yours is as good as anyone's at this point in time. Incredible, how we think that our tech is so advanced yet a commercial jet can go completely missing.

MH370 makes for an incredible setup to 'Lost'.

pitt1980 15 hours ago 2 replies      
Finding Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 is a problem google could solve by crowdsourcing the search on the google doodle

They could use an algorithm to generate different satellite images through the possible search images as the google doodle, they could put a toggle button, 'anything look like a plane or wreckage here?' Yes/no. For every yes, show it to more people, see if they agree

Im sure google has better algorithm experts to figure out what the best images to show are than I can figure out,

but google can find that plane

I've already submitted this to google via email at proposals@google.com as suggested on http://www.google.com/doodles/about

I suspect there are people on HN who are fewer degrees of seperation from who figures out the google doodle than I am though

If you happen to be one of those people, who might be able to send a personal email, or send a text, or make a phone call to someone who could advocate for that being the google doodle, I would appreciate that

needless to say, if google was able to help solve this mystery, I would imagine that would be pretty good publicity for the company

Thanks for your consideration

(sorry for the spam)https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7414422

jmnicolas 18 hours ago 0 replies      
It may be seen as heartless for the victims, but I still find comforting that in this day and age of widespread surveillance technology, one of the most tracked thing on earth can still disappear and leave everybody clueless.

It gives me hope that there will be still a chance for a resistance movement when the time will come.

wil421 10 hours ago 1 reply      
If it was really hijacked then where are all of the calls from frantic passengers calling family members like on 9/11. I am calling BS on the hijack landing scenario. Do we really live in a word where our first thoughts are always terrorism.

I guess the government propaganda machine is really working when our only conclusion to things is it must be terrorism. More funding for the spooks!

fnsa 19 hours ago 2 replies      
A theory is that the cargo area of the plane contained valuable goods: gold, silver, diamonds, etc and that's what the hijackers were after.

From this: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-15/missing-malaysian-f...

the 777 can have up to 25 tons worth of cargo payload.

25 tons of gold is worth ~ $1B, that's quite a bit more than the value of the plane itself.

thewarrior 16 hours ago 0 replies      
I remember reading that when the Israelis mounted their daring rescue mission at Entebbe in Uganda their three aircraft flew in formation so that it would appear as a single airplane on radar.
coherentpony 13 hours ago 1 reply      
Again, merely wild speculation.

I'd be ok with people not upvoting submissions that do nothing more than fear mongering.

gadders 17 hours ago 4 replies      
Just a quick question, but I'd have thought the number of airports where a plane the size of MH370 could land would be quite small.

Is it not possible to work out the number of airports within it's range, and examine those?

tn13 8 hours ago 1 reply      
This is not an hijack terrorism. Terrorism is all about showing off, theatrics, fear. No one would make a plane disappear for the sake of terrorism. I have only two theories

1. China or some other country shot it down by mistake and trying to cover up. 2. Something of immense importance was present on that plane or may be a person.

In either cases substantial involvement of some state needs to be there.

Symmetry 14 hours ago 0 replies      
Interesting, but this would seem to chiefly expand the space of possible explanations for what went wrong by showing how the plain could have gotten into central Asia. It explains some of the bizarre behavior of the plane, but not all of it. So it's eliminated some of the burdensome details about the flight behavior at the cost of introducing burdensome details about complicated, secret, and successful planning. As a result, I'm even less sure about what happened to the plane now, but of course if that reflects my actual state of knowledge it's a good thing.
lesterbuck 12 hours ago 0 replies      
If currently deployed military radars cannot distinguish between one and two 777s, we have a lot more to worry about than what happened to MH370.
aaron695 5 hours ago 0 replies      
I understand there will always be crackpot theories but why are they getting up-voted.

State sponsored? WTF. This would be an act of war. If you want to go to war why wouldn't you just attack the other countries. Why screw around stealing 300 international citizens first?

Pretty simple stuff, most likely an accident.

Or possibly a political/mental act by a very small group/one person that got lucky.

fishyninja 2 hours ago 0 replies      
How secure is the 777s flight management system? Could you hijack the controls (remotely or with temporary physical access) and prevent manual overrides when the change is noticed?
cylinder 7 hours ago 0 replies      
FYI CNN just discussed this theory on-air, of course didn't discuss any technical details, just called it "outlandish" and didn't give any credit to OP.
confluence 19 hours ago 1 reply      
> There are too many oddities in this whole story that dont make sense if this theory isnt the answer in my opinion.

Confirmation bias?

Slow burn fire randomly taking out communications systems and electronics undetected over a long period of time. Pilots freak out and head West for the coast, program way points on autopilot. Fire then cracks the hull, leading to a slow depressurization, incapacitating crew. Plane heads into the Indian ocean with all onboard unconscious or dead, until it runs out of fuel, and crashes into the ocean.

philip1209 3 hours ago 0 replies      
Would hydrophones be able to pick up the sound of an aircraft crashing into the ocean?
mittermayr 18 hours ago 3 replies      
What surprises me the most: In today's world, doesn't someone have access to global, real-time satellite data that goes down to 1-3m resolution? I thought we already accepted this as fact. Wouldn't such data provide visuals?
Flammy 19 hours ago 0 replies      
I'd really like to hear another knowledgeable person's analysis of this theory. At least its different than the endless hijackers/bombing/suicide/aliens run around.
linksbro 20 hours ago 1 reply      
Incredible theory. This entire situation is really a complete mystery.
sschueller 18 hours ago 3 replies      
Isn't it possible that one passenger may have left his cell phone on?

Maybe if you get all of the passengers numbers and check if any of the phones connected to a tower you could locate it?

mariuolo 18 hours ago 0 replies      
After all the revelations of the last few days, is there anything it may not have done?
wil421 14 hours ago 0 replies      
I seriously doubt the plane ever reached land. Sadly, we will most likely find the plane at the bottom of the ocean.
pogue 19 hours ago 2 replies      
All these theories... It's obviously at the bottom of the ocean. If not, it's here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y
LammyL 13 hours ago 1 reply      
This notion that mh370 was flying behind the Singapore jet to avoid radar is far fetched. Is the simple explanation much more likely that primary and secondary radar were both tracking the Singapore jet and the data wasn't matched properly? If the two jets were flying in tandem as you suggest, wouldn't you expect two hits on primary radar?
emeidi 17 hours ago 2 replies      
Anybody else noticed that "Keith Ledgerwood" has exactly one post on his Tumbler blog? Conspiracy theorist looking for five seconds of Internet fame?
rrtwo 19 hours ago 1 reply      
Waiting for a crossover of this route with this http://project.wnyc.org/runways/
danielschonfeld 14 hours ago 1 reply      
If they shut off the transponder, which we know they did, how would they get the traffic information on their NDs? It goes away when you turn off the transponder. To the best of my knowledge that applies to both Mode-S interrogations and ADS/B ones.
f1nch3r 15 hours ago 0 replies      
Doing this is sure cheaper and easier than building a bomber capable of deploying a nuclear weapon or another type of WMD. Definitely cheaper than building an ICBM.
GotAnyMegadeth 15 hours ago 0 replies      
Doesn't the NSA have all of the GPS tracking data for all of the smart phones on the plane?
houseofshards 19 hours ago 2 replies      
An aviation noob here. I have a question:

If the flight starts another journey from wherever it is, will it be possible to track it via radar ?

Redlen 14 hours ago 0 replies      
If this happened in North America would NORAD have been able to keep track of the plane?
headgasket 5 hours ago 0 replies      
who is is john galt
codr 9 hours ago 0 replies      
Much conspiracy.
mh370 16 hours ago 0 replies      
I've got some animations of flight 68's path here:http://findmh370.tumblr.com/
d0ugie 15 hours ago 2 replies      
Why are we still looking for this damn plane? Thirty countries involved? Thirty nation's worth of ships, planes and satellite analysts, flying and sailing around and for what, some debris and a box? To buy the families closure of some sort? Maybe a defect in the 777? To keep hope alive that the passengers might be alive and safe somewhere captured by reasonable terrorists with a lot of food?

Doesn't seem worth the fuel.

These black boxes from what I heard stop pinging after a month. Can we stop then, and just move on in life until one day some seat cushion washes up in California and have a moment if silence? Without it pinging, just how wide an area can a ship in substantial depth detect a wingtip?

I realize you didn't, but if you ask me, they should just frame that copilot, say they found on his flight simulator evidence that he intended to make that "deliberate" turn every night, disabling the transponder with the ctrl+shift+T combination and purposefully crashing hours later each time in a different location, with known Islamic terrorists on his WhatsApp and Skype, or a suicide note, then call off the hunt, pay the families off for failing to screen this guy effectively, bam, there's your closure, problem solved.


Squirt.io Readability Meets Spritz Speed Reading squirt.io
412 points by pkghost  5 days ago   206 comments top 81
timtadh 5 days ago 5 replies      
What I noticed using this to read a couple Ars Technica articles was it worked really well for short words. But, if a longer complicated word appeared, at say 600 wpm, I would miss it. It seems like an adaptive algorithm based on word length would improve the speed even more allowing it to go faster on short common words and slow down on longer unusual words.

Also, there is bug that sometimes causes two words to appear at once. Sometimes they are overlapping vertically which is basically impossible to read. Try reading http://pragdave.me/blog/2014/03/04/time-to-kill-agile/ to see what I mean.

pmichaud 5 days ago 1 reply      
I tried using it on a github wiki page, and it broke because github wouldn't load the external javascript. So I copied the text and made a local html file. That didn't work because of these errors:

Failed to load resource: net::ERR_FILE_NOT_FOUND file://www.squirt.io/bm/font-awesome.cssFailed to load resource: net::ERR_FILE_NOT_FOUND file://www.squirt.io/bm/squirt.css62 Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'style' of null squirt.js:1048 Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'style' of null

ghc 5 days ago 3 replies      
I've never thought much about my reading speed before, but after trying this and finding the deafault setting a bit slow, I decided to compare my natural reading speed.

I was able to read the article I chose in about 85% of the time of the default 400WPM of the bookmarklet (I read the article first with a timer, and then reread with the bookmarklet), which would put me at 470WPM. With Squirt, I was only able to get up to 650WPM before it felt too uncomfortable.

I wonder if people really read one word at a time, especially when they're short words. If people do read more than one word at a time, I think a more intelligent approach might be necessary to really make the experience both comfortable and fast.

nashequilibrium 5 days ago 6 replies      
HN always likes the faster is better, I am a genius absorbing this much information quicker than you. Its been proven over and over that comprehension is way more important than speed of consumption. You guys fool yourselves into believing you can comprehend while reading at breakneck speeds, its way more fun & time saving to be able to imagine, driftaway in thought and understand what you are reading.
philmcc 5 days ago 4 replies      
I'm pretty sure this is just a big middle finger to Spritz. In the most hilarious way possible. Or am I misinterpreting the acknowledgments? ;)
devindotcom 5 days ago 1 reply      
It's fun to see these ideas multiply and combine, but experts on reading comprehension seem to think RSVP didn't work even back in the 70s when it was being first tested:


Comprehension was worse than skimming, apparently. I can see this as a thing to flash headlines/latest news to you but anything longer than a sentence or two... not so sure.

Mizza 5 days ago 2 replies      
I'll also shamelessly plug my open source implementation, OpenSpritz, which now has a healthy and vibrant community!


as well as the Android / Google Glass companion:


iandanforth 5 days ago 1 reply      
Using a "let me google that for you" link on the problem with software patents seems unnecessary. Why imply your users are lazy? At first I thought the contrast between "whose patents are pending" and that link was a great bit of commentary, but that link was an unexpected slap. I was expecting an EFF link.
Zarkonnen 5 days ago 3 replies      
This is lovely, but how do I adjust the default WPM? I want to use more than 400, and having to adjust it each time is very annoying.
coderzach 5 days ago 2 replies      
I feel like it ruins the cadence, in my head anything I read with this sounds like it's coming from a robot.
Mojah 5 days ago 6 replies      
This project may consider a name-change, as googling for this after it's gone from the HN homepage will trigger ... interesting results. Especially if you're trying to show this to a co-worker in the office.

Note to my boss: I'm sorry!

Touche 5 days ago 2 replies      
Really like it. The only downside is that you have no idea how far along in the article you are. Would be nice if there was a % complete shown somewhere.
johnwatson11218 5 days ago 0 replies      
I always plug the same site on these threads. www.zapreader.com/readerI use that several times a week to get through lengthy articles. What I really want is something that shows all the text in the background kind of blurred out. The words should still flash on screen but with a keyboard shortcut I can make that disappear and have the word I was on hi lighted. I would like the text in the background to scroll while it is blurred out and I'm speed reading. That way if there is an image or diagram I can quickly shift back to normal reading. Or if I just need to re-read a section. Then using only keystrokes have it resume blasting the words on screen.
yawz 2 days ago 0 replies      
Feedback:The reading stops in the middle of the following link:http://lifehacker.com/the-truth-about-speed-reading-15425083...
philfreo 5 days ago 1 reply      
Awesome idea, thanks for making & sharing!

I tried it on http://blog.eventjoy.com/post/79387694078/how-we-restarted-o... but it choked/stopped once it came across the first linked.

ripperdoc 5 days ago 0 replies      
Nice layout for this one, a tad better than OpenSpritz.

One issue: numbers with points get split up, which is very confusing. E.g. 16.4 becomes 16. and then 4.

Another issue: It sometimes starts reading out script code, e.g. here. http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamtanner/2014/03/05/amazons-wa...

One feature request: Keyboard shortcuts to pause and maybe to step back or "zoom" out to see the whole last/current sentence before continuing.

mallamanis 5 days ago 1 reply      
I'd really like to see this model with an adaptive speed. Same speed for all the words isn't always the best.

Maybe using an n-gram model to predict how probable the next word is, could pass high probability phrases at a faster rate, while slowing down for "harder" words

ljf 5 days ago 1 reply      
Love it, I can't wait for an ePub reader though, got so many books I'd love to fly through, though novels for pleasure I think I'd read normally as I enjoy stopping and rereading passages.
wpears 5 days ago 1 reply      
Similar to what I did with the chrome extension Spree [1]. Though I find your pauses on periods to be a bit much. Code for Spree available on github [2]. The IIFE in spree.js can also function as a bookmarklet.

Also, Spree doesn't walk to an element's parent, which usually keeps it from getting into JS and ads, while still reading all of, say, a news article.

On another tack, quite a lovely site.

1. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/spree/aehoaolhojlm...

2. https://github.com/wpears/spree

robobenjie 5 days ago 0 replies      
I like this a lot, my only request would be a slightly longer pause at the end of sentences. Right now it pauses on long words so I mentally chunk all that together.
bdg 5 days ago 1 reply      
Thank you for this! I intend to drop the script on my blog, it might actually improve real reading rates (rather than thousands coming in from a reddit link and jumping ship after <9s ).
ideonexus 4 days ago 0 replies      
Small complaint. The following URL doesn't work:


You should modify your apache/iis config to account for this. I'd much rather type "squirt.io" in my browser address bar than "www.squirt.io".

But kudos to you for a wonderful product. This will replace the JS I've been using for the same purpose.

brador 5 days ago 0 replies      
How about making the entire text a single line, that scrolls right to left, like a marquee.

With a red marker, like here to mark a single fixed position on screen that the marquee text slides through to guide the eye.

This method would allow processing of local words for context rather than flashing single words.

zenocon 5 days ago 0 replies      
I'm not able to get the bookmarklet running in Chrome http://i.imgur.com/4osL2Bp.png -- albeit I do have a number of extensions running that mainly block lots of stuff, so I suspect one of them is the culprit.
gchokov 5 days ago 0 replies      
I'd be much more interested in a solution that effectively minimizes the text or uses another technique about speed reading (like diagonals, etc).

The reason why I won't be using this service is simply because it makes the eye lazier. My eyes are already lazy enough because I am in front of the computer 12+ hours a day, so my eyes muscles need movement. Staring at one point for long time can also cause side effects like losing the sense of space and time. Staring at one point is often used as hypnotizing during different kind of therapies.

scep12 5 days ago 0 replies      
I find that i'm not visualizing what I'm reading nearly as effectively. I think contextual clues of seeing words "in place" may be underrated.
felipeerias 5 days ago 3 replies      
I am not sure that I get the point of this. When I read a long piece, I try to enjoy it. Imagine the same approach being used to "fix" food or sex in the name of efficiency.
ScottWhigham 5 days ago 1 reply      
Great stuff - thanks for sharing.

One note: when I drag the bookmarklet from the Install page to my toolbar, then try to use it on a page on my http://localhost/ a dev site, for ex.), it (a) does what I expected it to do, but then (b) forwards me to http://localhost/install.html when it is finished. When I browse an actual domain-based site, it gives me the nice "You just read..." message at the end. It would be nice if both local and remote sites had the same experience.

owenversteeg 5 days ago 1 reply